on 31st July 2008 12:13 PM
Now from a Copper Plate Grant that remained among the Christians of Kollam in Kerala State we note the following text..
“…..After the royal punishment implemented against 72 - families of Vellalar of Kaviripoompattinam who believed and joined the Christian faith, they boarded a ship and went to the the place
The Copper Plates belong to 9th Century and written in Vatteluththu. So Quoting that would not help.
Kurakkeni (Kollam) where the (other) Kurakkeni Christians too lived like relations in the year A.D.293. The Christians from Niranam too (north of Kollam) came to Kurakkeni and saw the Tamils there and followed few Tamil customs and Malayalam customs and lived there.
(During this time) the one who performed miracles (and) by the name Maanikkavaasakar met the Christians who came newly to this region, by his miracles set the God he worshiped on them and caused fever, faintishness, and crippling of limbs, and killing the (domestic) animals and those who became sick thus when they humbly meet him and receive holy ash (thiruneeru) and on applying they get cured (of sickness )and rid off evil spirits.
The Linguistic use of Tamil word and Etymology shall not support Manickavasagar to 3rd Century, the Kings referred all belong to 2nd Pandya/Chola Period.
on 2nd August 2008 12:03 AM
Thanking you for your response to my Thread. You have mentioned in same as follows:
".......The Copper Plates belong to 9th Century and written in Vatteluththu. So Quoting that would not help......"
Could you very kindly let me know of the details of the Copper Plates, which you have referred to as "......belonging to the 9th century and written in Vatteluththu......".
Also please indicate as to who has provided this Copper Plate Grant you referred, and to whom ???
Also in the core text of the Copper Plate Grant you have mentioned above, did you see to your own eyes whether the text which I have given above in my Thread about Saint Maanikkavaasakar, is appearing in full or not ???
Also you have mentioned as follows:
".....The Linguistic use of Tamil word and Etymology shall not support Manickavasagar to 3rd Century.......
The poets of the Sangam Tamil Acadamy composed literary works to the grammetical norms set in the Agastiyam, Tholkaappiam and other ancient grammetical works, and the Tamil Sangam too was set up with many scholarly poets in Tamil, with the sole intension of devoloping Tamil and producing high class Tamil literary works of esteem.
Do you think either during Sangam period or post-Sangam period, the religious dignitories or any other countrymen out side the fold of Sangam Tamil Academy, would have spoken, written, or composed Literary works in Tamil to the same norms set up by Agastiyam & Tholkaappiam linguistically, in high class Tamil.
Hence could we say a lilterary or religious work composed by them of either of the above periods, doesnot fall to that period simply because they are not in align to Sangam Literary works liguistically, even though many other evidences point to such literary or religious work - to be of either of the above mentioned periods.
Even in a Tamil University of today, a student doing a specialised degee course in Tamil Lanuage will get accustomed to writing or composing Literary work of scholarly Tamil than the others who didnot have any such specialised study, but the average knowledge of Tamil in their schools and colleges.
Kavignar Vairamutthu and any average laymen of today, composing a poem each, could both be of the same linguistic scholarship. Could people many centuries later point to the poem composed by the average layman and say he doenot belong the period of Kavignar Vairamutthu being year 2008.
Today we hear of Chennai Tamil, Thirutchi Tamil, Thirunelveli Tamil, Mathurai Tamil, Koyaamuththoor Tamil, which are not only linguistically slight different - as spoken and written Tamil, but even some words used too are different. Can the people centuries later taking the composition of the Thirutchi Tamils as yardstick and say the composition of the people of the other regions of today's TamilNadu, doesnot belong to year 2008.
Hence trying to estimate the period of a Literary or Religious compositions purly on the linguistic basis or etymological basis cannot always be taken as the positive guidance in estimating the period of a work. It could be a rough guidance in the absense of any other evidences, but not in the face of many other evidences which are already available.
Please advise your views.
Further you have also stated that:
".......the Kings referred all belong to 2nd Pandya/Chola Period......"
Could you very kindly let me know the relevent years, to which the ".....2nd Pandiya /Chola period......" referred by you belongs to.
Also indicate the reasons you attribute - as to why your reckon these Kings under reference all belong to so called 2nd Pandiya/Chola period.
Awaiting your very kind replies to the above
on 2nd June 2010 04:55 PM
Which centuray was Maanikavaasaka swamigal born ? and was it him who narrated the 'Periya puranam', 'Siva puranam' ?
on 2nd June 2010 09:03 PM
The answer to your question regarding the period of Saiva Saint Maanikkavaasagar is given in the last paragaraph of my above thread.
The "Periyapuraanam" was composed by poet "Seikkeelaar".
The Tamil "Sivapuraanam" forms a part of "Thiruvaasakam" composed by the "Tamil Saiva Saint Maanikkavaasagar"
on 4th June 2010 04:27 PM
Sorry For the Delay and the above site gives in depth also.
Edicts and Copper Plates in detail
Some of the most important historical edicts/plates and privileges are known as Quilon Plates , Thazhekad Sasanam, Mampally Sasanam, Iravi Kortan plate and Cana Thomman plate etc. Of these the Quilon plates, Thazhekad sasanam edict, and Iravi Kortan plate are still extant. Cana Thomman plate is shrouded in mystery.
1.1 The Quilon plates
Two of the three Copper plate sets issued by Sthanu Ravi are related to the Saint Thomas Christians. These Copper plates brings to light the support extended by the local ruler to the Church at Kollam built by Mar Sabriso and to the Christians residing in the settlement there. They also shed considerable light on the position of the Christians. These plates are also known as Tarisapalli Copper plates.
1.2 Thazhekad Sasanam- Edict
Thazhekad, is the site of one of the earliest Nasrani communities in Kerala. It was once a prosperous inland port, during heydays of Muziris.
a) About the Edict
The King Rajasimha Perumal of Thazhekad Sasanam granted special rights and privileges to the Nazranies. It is one of the earliest surviving edicts granting special privileges to the Nasranies. The edict was written on a stone and mentions privileges granted to traders. The leaders of the traders were Chathan Padukan and Iravi Kothan. It mentions Cherupally and the traders were expected from paying tax, enabled them to fix the prices of commodities and retain the share of taxes until grievances are redressed. The edict is estimated between 8th and 10th century. This Church was ravaged by Tippu Sultan’s army, during his invasion of the south between the period, 1789-1792.
1.3 Iravi Kortan Cranganore (Copper Plate)
Veera Raghava Chakravarti issued a copper plate to Iravi Kortan in 1320 AD at Kodungallo or Cranganore.
a) About the plate
This is a single copper plate of 14 inches by 4. He was given the office of Manigramam, most probably the headship of merchants of Cranganore. He obtained several social privileges, monopoly of overland and seaborne trade. The donor made all other merchants and five artisan classes ( like the Carpenter, blacksmith, etc) subservient to Iravi Kortan. He was given brokerage on all sorts of goods and also customs duty or toll. The King permitted his descendants to enjoy these privileges and rights as hereditary grants. It is in old Tamil letters with some Grantha letters intermingled.
1.4 Thomas of Cana plates
Thomas of Cana, the Bishop who arrived in ninth century ( the immigrant leader who arrived in 345 AD according to the current Southist tradition) is said to have received a Copper plate. These are also known as Cana Thomman plates. This is shrouded in mystery and no one knows where the Cana Thomman plates are. According to some, the plates were reported missing during Portuguese possession.
A manuscript at British Museum contains a Portuguese translation of a plate by a learned Jew. Those were claimed to be of Thomas of Cana plates.
In c. 822 AD two bishops, Mar Sabrisho and Mar Peroz ( Prodh) along with several families had migrated to Kollam These two bishops administered the whole of the Syrian Church, with Mar Sabrisho keeping his head quarters at Kollam and Mar Peroz ( Prodh) at Kodungalur. They were responsible for the construction of churches at many places in Kerala and the churches built by them were known as Kantheeshangal//
Here Mr.Vedaprakash and me discussed on alleged Saint Thomas visits also.
As per the original collector of this Copper plates from Vedaprakash's posting are not reliable but forgeries in reply no-5632
//The so-called copper plates: Cladius Buchanan recorded as follows: “But there are other ancient documents in Malabar, not less interesting than the Syrian Manuscripts. The old Portuguese historians relate, that soon after the arrival of their countrymen in India, about 300 years ago, the Syrian Bishop of Angamalee (the place where I now am) deposited in the Fort of Cochin, for safe custody, certain tablets of brass, on which were engraved rights of nobility, and other privileges granted by a Prince of a former age ; and that while these Tablets were under the charge of the Portuguese, they had been unaccountably lost, and were never after heard of. Adrian Moens, a Governor of Cochin, in I770j who published some account of the Jews of Malabar, informs us that he used every means in his power, for many years, to obtain a sight of the famed Christian Plates ; and was at length satisfied that they were irrecoverably lost, or rather, he adds, that they never existed. The Learned in general, and the Antiquarian in particular, will be glad to hear jthat these ancient Tablets have been recovered within this last month by the exertions of Lieutenant- (Colonel Macauley, the British Resident in Travan-core, and are now officially deposited with that Officer. ‘ The Christian Tablets are six in number. They are composed of a mixed metal. The engraving on the largest plate is thirteen inches long, by about four broad. They are closely written, four of them on both sides of the plate, making in all eleven pages. On the plate reputed to be the oldest, there is writing perspicuously engraved in nail-headed or triangular- headed letters, resembling the Persepolitan or Babylonish. On the same plate there is writing in another character, which is supposed to have no affinity with any existing character in Hindoo* tan. The grant on this plate appears to be witnessed by four Jews of rank, whose names are distinctly engraved in an old Hebrew character, resembling the alphabet called the Palmyrene: and to each name is prefixed the title of ‘ Alagen,’ or Chief, as the Jews translated it. — It may be doubted, whether there exist in the world many documents of so great length, which are of equal antiquity, and in such faultless preservation, as the Christian Tablets of Malabar. — The Jews of Cochin indeed contest the palm of antiquity: for they also produce two Tablets, containing privileges granted at a remote period; of which they presented to me a Hebrew translation. As no person can be found in this country who is able to translate the Christian Tablets, I have directed an engraver at Cochin to execute a copper-plate facsimile of the whole, for the purpose of transmitting copies to the learned Societies in Asia and Europe. The Christian and Jewish plates together make fourteen pages. A copy was sent in the first instance to the Pundits of the Shanscrit College at Trichiar, by direction of the Rajah of Cochin ; but they could not read the character.* — From this place I proceed to Cande-nad, to visit the Bishop once more before I return to Bengal.’ [Claudius Buchanan, Two Discourses preached before the University of Cambridge, on the commencement of Subday July 1, 1810 and a sermon before the Society of Missions to Africa and the East; at their tenth anniversary. June 12, 1810. To which added Christian Researches in Asia, T. Cadell and W. Davies, in the Strand; and J. Deighton, Cambridge, London, 1811, pp.121-122.
6. In footnote, he recorded, “Most of the Manuscripts which I collected among the Syrian Christians, I have presented to the University of Cambridge; and (they are now deposited in the Public Library of that University, together with the copper-plate fac-similes of the Christian and Jewish Tablets.” (Ibid. P.122). Thus, it is evident that there were no originals of the said copper plates and thus, the available / claimed copper plates have no historical value.//
on 4th June 2010 04:35 PM
Manikkavasagar (மாணிக்கவாசகர் - literally words like jewels) was a Tamil poet who wrote Tiruvacakam, a book of Shaiva hymns. Manikkavacakar was one of the poets of the Hindu bhakti revival: his work forms one volume of the Tirumurai, the key religious text of Tamil Shaiva Siddhanta. A minister to the Pandya king Varagunavarman II (c. 862 C.E. – 885 C.E.), he lived in Madurai. His work is a poetic expression of the joy of God-experience, the anguish of being separated from God. Although he is a prominent saint in Southern India, he is not counted among the sixty-three nayanars.
Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN
on 15th November 2010 11:33 AM
Originally Posted by virarajendra
Vairamuthu - film songs compared with his own published (printed ) poems - style, diction, linguistic purity, structure, presentation -- all differ tremendously between themselves.
on 13th September 2016 09:19 AM
on 24th February 2017 02:11 PM