Quest of spirituality and pOli sAmiyArkaL

[app_engine]

Spiritual quest has always been part of the human make-up. Even among people who don't believe in God, there had been always questions like 'whether life has a purpose' (why are we here, why so much crime / suffering, is it possible to know the future, what happens at death etc.) Even many who are strong believers of the theory of evolution have at times wondered whether there was one original cause at all or whether there was a law-maker behind the laws after all. (A nice example - the famous writer Sujatha, please refer to his quoted article about "obituary column" in his obituary thread). Often such evolutionists are also altruistic (defying survival-of-the-fittest theory), philanthropic etc.

Unfotunately, there have always been some smart humans who use this quest of spirituality in human make-up to their selfish advantage, by claiming themselves to be 'sAmiyArs'. At the same time there are many others who try to educate people on spirituality without any kind of selfish interests.

A typical average person is baffled as to how to identify the real spiritual guru from a pOli. Today's newspaper has this horrible news of one person with such claims committing a suicide along with his lover:
http://dailythanthi.com/article.asp?...date=4/17/2008

What are the views of hubbers as to the identifying marks of a good spiritual guru? How to avoid pOlikaL? (Please don't side-step into any controversy related to religion / caste etc. as the Hub forbids discussion in those lines)

[Bipolar]

What are the views of hubbers as to the identifying marks of a good spiritual guru? How to avoid pOlikaL?

Well, the only way to be absolutely sure of avoiding "pOlikaL" - don't trust any of them!!!

The question is - why do you need to put your faith in a "guru"? I mean idolising someone - whoever it may be - is dangerous. I prefer to learn from people who are willing to admit to their flaws - I'm willing to admit to my own weaknesses - rather than people who claim to be spiritually "wiser" and "intellectually" superior to me. I don't trust anyone dressed in saffron (or for that matter, any other colour) robes.

A sportsman can by guided by a coach, but he cannot improve his standard unless he actually does the hard work himself. A coach can show the way, but it's up to the sportsman to do the work. But a sportsman who carefully studies himself, learning from his own mistakes (and also from other people's mistakes) doesn't need a coach. Likewise, if you can carefully learn to find your way in life by yourself, and also learn from other people's experiences, there is no need to turn to a spiritual "Guru".

In the field of medicine, currently the philosophy is "evidence-based medicine", i.e., when making any decision about treating patients, look for evidence. Don't use a treatment just because the professor thinks it's the right treatment, or because the textbooks say that it's the right treatment... of course, usually, the professor and the textbooks are right, but the only way to be totally sure, is to look at evidence obtained through carefully designed research studies and clinical trials. Likewise in life, learn from successful people - people who have proven themselves through their actions, rather than "gurus" who have achieved nothing, though they may know how to talk using grand ideas which are usually impractical.

We can learn qualities such as discipline from sportsmen, we can learn dedication from scientists, we can passion from artists, etc. etc. If any guru can achieve anything useful for others, then we can take them seriously - not until then.

[Badri]

What are the views of hubbers as to the identifying marks of a good spiritual guru? How to avoid pOlikaL?

I will not say there is no need for a guru at all! That would go against every scripture! The Guru-Sishya parampara is one of the most sacred, most holy relationships and it is not for me to denounce that and say there is no need for a guru whatsoever.

Yes there have been spiritual greats who have had no "human" guru but even they admit to either life itself or God Himself as the Guru.

Such being the case how do we identify the correct guru? Bhagawan Sri Ramana Maharishi, one of the greatest Jnanis of the last century - who never posited himself as a guru - defines the Guru Lakshana (characteristics of a guru).

He would often say "If your mind attains peace in the presence of a Master, then know him to be the Guru".

Thus, the only qualification is whether the so-called 'guru' is able to bring peace of mind to you. He is not one who gives endless spiritual discourses, not one who keeps disciples busy with revelation after revelation etc. It is one who, by his mere presence, can calm the unruly mind, and allow the so called disciple to delve deep within himself. After all, isnt that what spirituality is all about - calming the raging mind and looking within to discover the PEACE already present?

Oh, but if you want worldly favours, parigarams for griha shanthi, solving marital problems, financial problems etc etc...then there are dime a dozen ready to give you advise. If you seek a guru for only worldly benefits, then you probably cannot complain being ripped off and made a fool of.

For that goes against the very basic tenet of spirituality. The Guru is not for attaining worldly benefits. The Guru is someone who can show the path on the spiritual quest. he can give advise, and help you along discovering your own inner truth. That is all.

[dev]

[

Thus, the only qualification is whether the so-called 'guru' is able to bring peace of mind to you. He is not one who gives endless spiritual discourses, not one who keeps disciples busy with revelation after revelation etc. It is one who, by his mere presence, can calm the unruly mind, and allow the so called disciple to delve deep within himself. After all, isnt that what spirituality is all about - calming the raging mind and looking within to discover the PEACE already present?

[anbu_kathir]

On similar terms with Bipolar and Badri, I would just like to add these.

As both Badri and Bipolar have hinted at, The Guru (literally meaning - 'remover of ignorance', one who leads us to Enlightenment) need not be a person. We may find Him in all beings, including ourself ( in the sense of following good qualities in every being). But being in the physical world, I should say there is hardly anything more blissful as being close to one's Sath-Guru physically.

Following Swadharma, with passion and non-attachment, doing some form of selfless service regularly, and having an irresistible thirst for true spiritual understanding and growth; all these will lead one to one's own Bliss, whether it is by a Guru(physical) or not. It will also keep one away from any of these pOli Saamiyars, or any other miscreants. Its Natural law, and Life eventually brings to one what one truely and deeply desires.

Moreover, it is always said to the earnest seeker: Never go searching for a Guru. He will come when you are ready.

Love and Light

[wrap07]

As meant by Badri beautifully, A Guru is one who gives peace of mind.

A Guru in its true form cannot be expected to solve any probelms overnight or perform miracles. He is there for us a solace to our problems and he will guide us to the right path in the turbulent of times. He initiates and conducts us to Godly ways. In his merciful presence, we get confidence and strength.
He helps us to introspect and become a better soul by refining ourselves. Even if we are not near him physically, his omniprescence in our thoughts will make us righteous.

Anbu was just right. A truthful seeker will always have a Guru waiting for him.

[app_engine]

>>The question is - why do you need to put your faith in a "guru"? I mean idolising someone - whoever it may be - is dangerous.<<

Bipolar, I think accepting one as a guru does not mean idolising. (Actually that is the main problem with the naive public, idolising some pOli sAmiyar as avatar of God and getting into trouble).

Interestingly, the statment "the only qualification is whether the so-called 'guru' is able to bring peace of mind to you" could easily be misunderstood by some to be idolizing the person. Probably for Divya in this news, suruttu sAmiyAr gave the "real peace of mind"

I think we can refine the initial discussion question into a number of questions now:

1. Do we need a spiritual guru?
2. If so, what are the qualities that one should look for in the guru as an individual (not really our own emotions like "I get real peace in his/her presence" etc)?
3. Once a guru is identified, how far should the dependency go (and also the relationship)?

[app_engine]

>>A truthful seeker will always have a Guru waiting for him.<<

wrap07, unfortunately there are too many waiting for him and some of them are outright frauds Most people do not care much about the questions in my first post during their day to day life (especially if they are too busy in their material profession etc). However, when some tragedy strikes or a major life-event happens that results in a change in situation or even to cope with anxieties, start thinking in these lines and look for some support / help.

When someone is at such a vulnerable condition, though the person is earnest in asking sincere questions and seeking honest answers, he may also be emotionally unbalanced and end-up as a price-catch for one of these frauds. I've seen even some of my high-tech colleagues ending up spending lakhs on such characters when they are in turmoil but before they realize and come out, ever bitter knowing they've got cheated.

Is it not better to at least have some idea / criteria during a mentally stable period that if ever such a need comes up, one doesn't make a poor choice?

I think one has to seek a guru when not in a crisis

[app_engine]

>>I think one has to seek a guru when not in a crisis<<

Again, I don't necessarily mean a physical person. As posted by some above, the guru can actually be an "it or they", not necessarily he or she.

[wrap07]

>>A truthful seeker will always have a Guru waiting for him.<<

wrap07, unfortunately there are too many waiting for him and some of them are outright frauds Most people do not care much about the questions in my first post during their day to day life (especially if they are too busy in their material profession etc). However, when some tragedy strikes or a major life-event happens that results in a change in situation or even to cope with anxieties, start thinking in these lines and look for some support / help.

When someone is at such a vulnerable condition, though the person is earnest in asking sincere questions and seeking honest answers, he may also be emotionally unbalanced and end-up as a price-catch for one of these frauds. I've seen even some of my high-tech colleagues ending up spending lakhs on such characters when they are in turmoil but before they realize and come out, ever bitter knowing they've got cheated.

Is it not better to at least have some idea / criteria during a mentally stable period that if ever such a need comes up, one doesn't make a poor choice?

I think one has to seek a guru when not in a crisis

app, i was mentioning about a stage where a person has better control over emotions and he deserves a Guru for better enlightenment. Those persons would never fall for frauds or wrong elements. They can easily identify the same.

Your observations about people seeking guru when not in crisis
is idealistic and to be appreciated. But, when one is happy and peaceful , who is bothered about Guru or any other thing. That interest is only for the people I mentioned above.