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Thread: Hinduism, Initial concept of Shiva, Trinity...

  1. #71
    Senior Member Diamond Hubber PARAMASHIVAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunil_M88 View Post
    but I strongly think no one is free from anger, fear, jealousy, hatred, attachment, etc.
    Yes there are!!
    Om Namaste astu Bhagavan Vishveshvaraya Mahadevaya Triambakaya Tripurantakaya Trikalagni kalaya kalagnirudraya Neelakanthaya Mrutyunjayaya Sarveshvaraya Sadashivaya Shriman Mahadevaya Namah Om Namah Shivaye Om Om Namah Shivaye Om Om Namah Shivaye

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  3. #72
    Senior Member Seasoned Hubber Sunil_M88's Avatar
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    I'm not denying it's truth but I personally don't comprehend it being possible.

  4. #73
    Senior Member Senior Hubber anbu_kathir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunil_M88 View Post

    but I strongly think no one is free from anger, fear, jealousy, hatred, attachment, etc.
    Free from anger etc. does not necessarily mean anger etc. will not be displayed. What it means is that the person is in control of his emotions and not otherwise. Since this is a constitution of such a person's mind, it cannot be brushed off as if they are impossible, neither can it be accepted if it be told simply in words. That such and such person is free from all these confusions is to be found by patience and observation of the person. One hint to find such a person is that he or she would seem peaceful most of the time, but at the same time never claim anything special or great to himself. In fact, mostly the work of a teacher is to simply point out that the seeker is himself the greatest thing in the world. Such a person would never attribute any greatness to himself. Even if he or she did on rare occasions, it would merely be a device to teach something.

    I've also read that there is no one who is equally wealthy, powerful, famous, beautiful, learned and scholarly yet renounces order of life unattached to material possessions as someone who has all these six qualities is understood to be the supreme personality of godhead.
    I don't understand what you are saying, except for the fact that you have given the possessions of Bhagavan, which are known as the "Bhaga"s in sanskrit. They include Jnaanam, Yashas, Sri, Aishwarya, Virya, Vairagyam. Obviously Bhagavan is considered to be the repository of all these possessions. What is this "no one who is equally wealthy.. yet renounces"? Didn't make sense.

    I feel that material possessions is a blanket term i.e. if you want to want to devote your life to god then do you seriously have to give up material possessions. I believe when "Mahans" say that one should give up material possessions, they are actually referring to greed.
    Please reread what I said - " by mentally renouncing the desire for worldly pleasures" . This is 100% necessary if one wants to know God, or be free from sorrow and its causes once and for all. Physical renunciation, physically separating oneself from material possessions is considered to be very important, nevertheless. But its not like a "rule" if one wants to know God. It is merely meant to provide a convenient setting in which one can spend time exclusively for study of the scriptures in order to know and be established in that by which all sorrow comes to an end. The value one attaches to all worldly attachments, relations, and possessions *have* to be given up to know God. One cannot be 100% sure if one has given up this (emotional) value until one loses the things he possesses. Therefore physical renunciation is a great aid in this matter.

    Of course, this is only the last leg of the journey, it is meant only for those who have the thirst to know God. There are several other spiritual disciplines prescribed for those who still have desires and attachments in the world. Depending on their mental state they can make use of these disciplines.


    One can think he is ethical and moral in every way possible but it's always external influences that shape us a people, hence if we want to attain "Moksha" it's not in our hands even if we choose a simple and ascetic lifestyle.
    If you don't want an ascetic lifestyle, don't choose it. As I said, it is only for those who want God exclusively that the ascetic lifestyle is preferable. Not for those who have desires to achieve something in the world, to gain something, to love someone or be loved by someone, to have different kinds of experiences in the world, etc. It is not that all these desires are wrong, certainly one may have them. But having them in excess, having them at the cost of ethics and morals (i.e. adharma) is detrimental to a peaceful life. Therefore there are several disciplines which are prescribed by religion(s). One can make use of these disciplines to lead a (relatively) peaceful life, even without attempting to be an ascetic. But to root out the cause of sorrow, an ascetic life is extremely helpful.

    As for "Moksha being not in our hands", you couldn't be more wrong. Moksha is completely in our hands. It depends purely on our mental capabilities like renunciation and desire to be free. This should never be doubted by any spiritual seeker.

    A person who makes himself oblivious to the world and is immersed completely in "jaap" 24/7 either is a reformed character or sociopath.
    Its not jaap, but japa or jap or japam, I guess. Anyway, the statement is purely your opinion and viewpoint of what a Sanyaasi's life should be. It does not reflect the opinion of the scripture, nor is this the only way Sanyaasa is practised. But I guess what you mean is that a Sanyaasi's life is dedicated to the pursuit of the divine and the divine only. So much is indeed true.

    If god showers wealth, power, fame on an individual then he/she should acknowledge it instead of giving it up!
    God has no necessity of our prayers, our devotion, our renunciation, or our moral life. You cannot dictate what other people should or should not do. The mind of a renunciate is very different from our minds (in general). Our minds are generally accustomed to hold on to the objects of the world to derive our pleasures, whether it be people, or objects, or circumstances. The renunciate's mind rejoices in himself/God alone. It is not that he "hates" the world. No. He is tired of holding on to temporal things and he deeply desires something permanent. This permanency he finds in his own Self, if not, then in God. So he wanders about (or keeps himself in one place) with this understanding all the time. Since he has no need for wealth or power or fame, he gives it to those people who need them. God plays no role in this matter. It is purely the mind of the worldly people by which they depend on temporal things for their happiness, and thereby they get misled. Similarly it is purely the mind of the renunciate by which he learns to depend on God or his own Self, and thereby he takes the correct approach towards being content.


    Is it a test from god to see how that individual will respond i.e. stay humble or become a show off either way god is always testing each and everyone of us but before they prove anything to god they need to first prove to themselves who they actually are. Hence some people might not even need guidance
    I didn't get what your point is here at all. As for "proving anything to God", God does not need any proof of our divinity. It is we who miss it. Therefore it is we ourselves who have to remember it. The result of this remembrance is the destruction of the cause of sorrow once and for all.

    Love and Light.
    Last edited by anbu_kathir; 5th December 2012 at 10:41 AM.

  5. #74
    Senior Member Senior Hubber anbu_kathir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunil_M88 View Post
    I'm not denying it's truth but I personally don't comprehend it being possible.
    I didn't believe that there is such a thing called a zero-mass particle either. I couldn't comprehend that it was possible. Then people taught me about the photon. After much thought and study, I understood what it meant.

    Well, kind of. But I don't doubt that there is such a thing called a zero-mass particle anymore.

    Love and Light,
    Prasad.

  6. #75
    Senior Member Senior Hubber anbu_kathir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN View Post
    Correct!
    But it is also possible to attain spirituality without a guru.
    The famous saint Sri Ramakrishna used to say that even to become a good thief, one needs to have an excellent thief as a teacher. Then what to say of knowing God, who is most difficult to know ? Also, all the scriptures speak of getting this knowledge from an accomplished teacher only. Never do they mention any technique to attain God without a teacher.

    Of course, the decision is left to the individual.

    Love and Light.

  7. #76
    Senior Member Diamond Hubber PARAMASHIVAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunil_M88 View Post

    I feel that material possessions is a blanket term i.e. if you want to want to devote your life to god then do you seriously have to give up material possessions.
    Who said that ?? You don’t have to give up any material objects to attain the knowledge of your self, you can use materials for your day to day life, but don’t become emotionally attach to it.

    Eg. You use a car to go to work, do shopping etc, but if some thing happens to your car (Lost/stolen/Damaged) you should not show any emotions, if there is no emotion towards any object, then there is no attachment.
    Om Namaste astu Bhagavan Vishveshvaraya Mahadevaya Triambakaya Tripurantakaya Trikalagni kalaya kalagnirudraya Neelakanthaya Mrutyunjayaya Sarveshvaraya Sadashivaya Shriman Mahadevaya Namah Om Namah Shivaye Om Om Namah Shivaye Om Om Namah Shivaye

  8. #77
    Senior Member Seasoned Hubber Sunil_M88's Avatar
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    I was merely paraphrasing but I should have given the exact quote -

    So
    from practical experience we can observe that one is attractive due to
    (1) wealth, (2) power, (3) fame, (4) beauty, (5) wisdom and (6)
    renunciation. One who is in possession of all six of these opulences at
    the same time, who possesses them to an unlimited degree, is understood
    to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. These opulences of the
    Godhead are delineated by Paräçara Muni, a great Vedic authority.
    We have seen many rich persons, many powerful persons, many famous
    persons, many beautiful persons, many learned and scholarly persons,
    and persons in the renounced order of life unattached to material
    possessions. But we have never seen any one person who is unlimitedly
    and simultaneously wealthy, powerful, famous, beautiful, wise and
    unattached, like "God", in the history of humanity.
    It's always a pleasure to read your comments, sir and I thoroughly enjoyed it! Though I still have a tiny nitpick as I'm still not convinced by "Moksha" being a result of our mental capabilities. i.e. if god created us then did he give us personality or did we develop that ourselves? Does this define the line between humans and the supernatural?

    BTW Jaap is a Punjabi variant of the words you've listed.

    Quote Originally Posted by anbu_kathir
    God has no necessity of our prayers, our devotion, our renunciation, or our moral life. You cannot dictate what other people should or should not do.
    Pardon me

    Quote Originally Posted by anbu_kathir
    I didn't get what your point is here at all. As for "proving anything to God", God does not need any proof of our divinity. It is we who miss it. Therefore it is we ourselves who have to remember it. The result of this remembrance is the destruction of the cause of sorrow once and for all.
    That's what I meant but my lack of vocabulary let my expression down.

  9. #78
    Senior Member Senior Hubber anbu_kathir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunil_M88 View Post
    So
    from practical experience we can observe that one is attractive due to
    (1) wealth, (2) power, (3) fame, (4) beauty, (5) wisdom and (6)
    renunciation. One who is in possession of all six of these opulences at
    the same time, who possesses them to an unlimited degree, is understood
    to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. These opulences of the
    Godhead are delineated by Paräçara Muni, a great Vedic authority.
    We have seen many rich persons, many powerful persons, many famous
    persons, many beautiful persons, many learned and scholarly persons,
    and persons in the renounced order of life unattached to material
    possessions. But we have never seen any one person who is unlimitedly
    and simultaneously wealthy, powerful, famous, beautiful, wise and
    unattached, like "God", in the history of humanity.
    This is indeed true as a comparison between the capabilities of the Lord and the capabilities of individuals.

    I'm still not convinced by "Moksha" being a result of our mental capabilities. i.e.
    I didn't say Moksha is a 'result' of our mental capabilities. I said it is in our own hands. A popular analogy for this is that the Lord's grace is like the ever present wind and the individual is like a boat on the sea. If the individual by his effort (i.e renunciation and desire to know god) raises the mast, then the wind takes care of everything that is required to reach the destination. There is no "effort" put forth by the wind to do this. The effort is all by the boatman, who understands the point of being in a boat, how it works, what is detrimental to reaching the goal and what is useful, and has the courage enough to raise the mast. All these are in the hands of the boatman only, not the wind. In the same way Moksha is completely dependent on the individual's desire and mental qualifications. The rest is God's grace, which is ever-present, about which we need only to be thankful for but not bother about.

    if god created us then did he give us personality or did we develop that ourselves? Does this define the line between humans and the supernatural?
    There are loaded words here - like "God" , "Creation", etc., that it is slightly difficult to answer the questions before defining them properly (I generally use them only from a utility point of view). But the point is not difficult to make. The mental and physical characteristics possessed by an individual is because of a portion of aggregate of actions done in the past (lives). This is known as Praarabhda Karma. 'God' as such is merely a facilitator, an entity which lends existence to the individual and all the possible shades that he can take. In the particularity of the shades, God plays no part, and it is purely the individuals free will which decides. The same law governs all beings, including plants, animals, human beings, and supernaturals.

    All this can be accepted or rejected as blind belief. From another perspective, these questions don't matter at all. We find ourselves right now with so many issues and problems in life. We find ourselves incapable to handle many of them, afraid, incomplete, insecure and bound. Is there any solution at all? How does it matter *how* we came about to this issue? The house is burning. Do we see it? If we see it, we take action to protect it. We don't stop to ask how it started burning in the first place. That we can bother after we have extinguished the fire. Similarly these questions on "how" and "why" will subside after our issues (of being insecure, afraid, self-loathing, guilt, hurt, sorrow) are dealt with. And to deal with them, to cure them, such that they don't reappear again, is called finding God.

    BTW Jaap is a Punjabi variant of the words you've listed.
    I didn't know that, pardon me.

    Love and Light.

  10. #79
    Senior Member Diamond Hubber PARAMASHIVAN's Avatar
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    When the very source of creation is within you, all the solutions are within you.but you spend your entire life seeking the creator outside by various methods / Idiologies known as Religion. This is why you are not getting any where! The source of creation is within you, if you remove the curtains of "Maya" , you would find the creator within you!
    Om Namaste astu Bhagavan Vishveshvaraya Mahadevaya Triambakaya Tripurantakaya Trikalagni kalaya kalagnirudraya Neelakanthaya Mrutyunjayaya Sarveshvaraya Sadashivaya Shriman Mahadevaya Namah Om Namah Shivaye Om Om Namah Shivaye Om Om Namah Shivaye

  11. #80
    Senior Member Senior Hubber anbu_kathir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN View Post
    When the very source of creation is within you, all the solutions are within you. The source of creation is within you, if you remove the curtains of "Maya" , you would find the creator within you!
    What is this 'you'? What is the meaning of 'within'? What is Maya? How do you say there is a creator?

    Quote Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN View Post
    but you spend your entire life seeking the creator outside by various methods / Idiologies known as Religion. This is why you are not getting any where!
    What is 'religion' and how do you ascertain that it is useless?

    Love and Light.

    P.S : Asking these questions out of curiosity and out of an interest in clarity.

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