New age IR's Raga Choices

[vel]

hi skr

that was a gr8 update -- i was eager to know if they had done some rare numbers. amma amma from uzhaipaali in Kathyayini is cool. There is also another song Poothendral Kaatre Vaa from the film Manjal Veyil. (Even some of the lines in vizhiyile mani vizhiyil mounan mozhi is in this scale.)

[vel]

hindustani khamaj ? malgunji?
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nailing down the the above song may be the key to deciphering vaana mazhai pole -

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[RR]

ABC nee vaasi - Niranjani

Idhu enna raagam-pa?

[skr]

RR ,
There is a raga Niranjani which is a janyam of the 31st Melakartha Yagapriya.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Janya_Ragas
However im not sure ABC Nee Vaasi follows that structure , will check with a friend and get back.

[RR]

skr: thanks, but the song doesn't seem to follow that scale.

[RR]

vel,

Both guesses don't seem to be right. I can at best call it misra khammaj. Maybe some hindustani experts can clarify.

[vel]

skr: thanks, but the song doesn't seem to follow that scale.

rajiv, RR -- niranjani might be the female singer's name

[vel]

vel,

Both guesses don't seem to be right. I can at best call it misra khammaj. Maybe some hindustani experts can clarify.

vel,

Both guesses don't seem to be right. I can at best call it misra khammaj. Maybe some hindustani experts can clarify.

hi RR --After plenty of bloodshed in anlayzing these songs in the ORKUT community, a tired Vignesh and Tn Arunagari reluctantly declared this it could be hindustani Gara.

I quote Vicky's dissection below

QUOTE

So let me summarize what has been discussed on "Veenai Meetum" so far and then build my case further on it.

Observations so far:
1. Arun found some resemblance to Veenai meetum with few Hindi classics which he has posted.
2. Arun has suggested Malgunji / Rageshree
3. Raj has seconded this opinion
4. Both Arun/ Raj have ruled out the Raag Gora Kalyaan.

In the past few days, I have listened to all youtube links by Arun. I have gone through Mr. Parikar's pages end to end.

Here are my thoughts:

1. I also think Gora Kalyan can be ruled out.
Why?
Because from Mr. Rajan Parikar's link, it appears that Gorah Kalyan is averse to Gandharam in any form let alone the G2 which is daunting Arun. Opening statement on GK in that link is >>Gorakh Kalyan, too, is affiliated with the Khamaj thAT, and again, like Narayani, the gandhar is out of a job here>> ; However Veenai Meetum seems to have Ga all over place to the point of being Ga2 centric. End of story..

2. I think we should rule out Rageshree too.
Why?
Because Mr. Parikar again says:
" The pancham is varjya throughout, the rishab is skipped (and at times, alpa) in the Arohi mode."

The line "Enai unakkena eesan vaithaan" in charnam ends in Panchamam. And then the next line "Ilai Maraivinil Paasam Vaiththaan" = Pa dha Ga pa dha ni
We could negate this "Pa" occurance as an as accidental if that was the only aberration that stops this song from being sanctified as Rageshree
I don't think so.. Especially when you factor in the No Ri in the Arohi rule as well as score of other accidentals in this song.

Just for the sake of completion, there is some reference about usage of Pa in Rageshree that says: >>A variant, Pancham Rageshree (i.e., a P-laden Rageshree), is occasionally heard in some Agra quarters>> ; Now saying that "veenai meetum" could be Pancham rageshree would be over stretching our argument .. So we would want to rule out Rageshree..

That begs the question is it Malgunji or not..

I am almost exhausted trying to look answer for this question.

Arguments For Malgunji:
=================
- Both Ga allowed in Malgunji
- Both Ni allowed in Malgunji. Especially this is very poignantly brought about in end of charanam of Veenai Meetum.
- Ga2 in descent which gave Arun - the bageshri sundae
- "sa ni2 dha2 ni2" phrases

Arguments Against Malgunji
====================
As illustrated by Shri. Ramashreya Jha's demo of Malgunji "sa ni2 dha2 ni2 sa ri2 ga3 ma1 pa" seems to be its most characteristic pakad. This tells us two things.

- Ga3 in Arohi is the KEY differentiating factor of Malgunji from Bageshri.
- As a corollary, Ga2 is allowed only in descent.

Veenai meetum seems to very loosely adher to the "Ga3 only in Arohi" rule. while it flouts the "no ga2 in Arohi" rule rather liberally. Eg: The gamakam of "vaa" (of 'Maalai sooda vaa') = ri2 ga2 ma1| ri2 ga2 ma1

For me the chief Malgunji dis-qualifier is the application of Ga3 in this song. Don't forget that fundamentally Malgunji is based on Khamaj that (with Ga3) and not Kaafi Thaat (Ga2). Ga3 is almost non-existent in Veenai Meetum. Found only in two places: During the lines "Ulagame Pugazhndhadhe" in pallavi and towards the end of charanam.

From Mr. Jha's demo as well as on the other links, Ga3 should be felt much more prominently in a Malgunji song. But in Veenai meetum these roles are reversed. In this song ga2 beats ga3 hands down.. to the extent of forcing me to say ga3 is an 'accidental' in this song. This is very atypical of malgunji.

Same thing can be said about Panchamam. In Veenai Meetum, Pa has as much insignificant presence as ga3. in fact it lead us in the direction of Rageshree. But Malgunji has way too much an high voltage Pa.

Closing Arguments
- I find a telling resemblance to the classic "Kabhi Khud Pe" that Arun posted and Veenai meetum. Google is telling me that, "Kabhi Khud Pe" is based on a hitherto undiscussed Raaga called "Gara".. Not surprisingly Mr. Jha towards the end of his Demo point out that, Malgunji is very similar to Gara.

- Both interludes of Veenai Meetum are liberally composed keeping the flow/ situation of the song and doesn't bother too much about the otherwise felt Malgunji/ Gara in this song. Especially the second interlude which is more of A major Sankarabharanam.

- Such phrases highlight the "Light Music" nature of this song. When you have such prominent free-spirited interludes, to me the vigor/ inspiration to fit such songs to a Raaga, dies out then and there.

- For the sensation seekers, we can still categorize that -
Very specific parts of "Veenai meetum" - when you leave out few lines in its Pallavi and Charanam and ignore its interludes - qualify as a customized new mutated variety of Malgunji that actually sounds like Gara !!

(All these specs leaves us with just 8 lines or so of the whole song, BTW !!!!!!!!)

- For the truth seekers, lets just say its a great light music song that sounds heavenly.

I fully second Arun's earlier comment on the forum that,

- Tagging a Raaga to a tune is not a simple exercise.

So when every song needs to be tagged to a Raaga, It calls for due diligence which costs unbelievable amount of time and drive..

And for rather light music oriented songs (with classical base), when names come up, you are sure that most of the time you are working hard to prove its NOT a given Raaga. (Because at the end of the day, A raaga is a raaga with very little scope for subjectivity) Hence this is not efficient.

Right Arun.. I missed your note on Raag Gara and hence misspecified it as an "hitherto unknown name to our discussion".. Of course you already specified it on the Youtube post on "Na Jiya"..

So I am fully with you that, if at all we want to put a name, indeed we are left with only your two original contenders (Maalgunji and Gara);

UNQUOTE

[V_S]

Wow! that was the most exhaustive analysis I have ever seen. Thanks a lot vel for sharing this one. It seems a big collective effort to get to the core of the song. Wow!
Maestro might have finished this song in just minutes and I can't believe how much time and effort it takes to dissect it! Big applause to all of you (them).

[RR]

'veenai meetum' can be a reluctant Gara.

what about 'vaana mazhai'.. There's no rishabam, rt? Then have to rule out Gara too.

btw, which orkut group is this?