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Thread: New age IR's Raga Choices

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    New age IR's Raga Choices

    This thread is an offshoot from discussions in IR's New albums 2012
    ... 2010 had a long , dry spell and 2011, opening with “aiyaiyo” Ayyan, I didn’t have high hope . But Ponnar Sankar did kindle some expectation in the aftermath of Kalaignyar’s UO.

    Third is the most popular SriRamaRajyam which has bunch of melodies and which is heard often too. But I could not hide a tinge of disappointment as this musical has the least novelty from Raja. He has taken a very safe stance of using all clichéd ragas like Suddhadhanyasi, SindhuBhairavi, Keeravani, Hindolam instead of venturing into new ragas [reminded of magical Balanagamma, Kovil pura] . Despite sliding to number 3, I consider “Devulle menchulle”, “Srirama lera” and “kalaiya nijama”

    ----
    For discussion on other genre songs of IR, see here
    Last edited by RR; 9th January 2012 at 03:14 PM. Reason: Edited title

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    Quote Originally Posted by thumburu View Post
    Third is the most popular SriRamaRajyam which has bunch of melodies and which is heard often too. But I could not hide a tinge of disappointment as this musical has the least novelty from Raja. He has taken a very safe stance of using all clichéd ragas like Suddhadhanyasi, SindhuBhairavi, Keeravani, Hindolam instead of venturing into new ragas [reminded of magical Balanagamma, Kovil pura] . Despite sliding to number 3, I consider “Devulle menchulle”, “Srirama lera” and “kalaiya nijama”

    Cliched choise of ragas?

    Not quite....

    Rama rama ane was a catchy senchuruti and those brief thukkada songs (sengu sakraala and idhi paatabhi raamaniki) are set in saraswathi/triveni...Saraswathi raga is | S R2 M2 P D2 S | S N2 D2 P M2 G2 R2 S ...some songs of Raaja in this scale are Veena Vani - Pon Megalai, Karpoora Bommai Ondru - Keladi Kanmani. While the pallavi of karpoora bommai ondru is in saraswathi, the scale changes in charanams to accomodate the happier flashback scenes. Coming back to the Sri Rama Rajyam songs, he has used this scale with a very slight touch of Ni3. The folkish sounding song follows the saraswathi pattern, and the vakra pattern of skipping Ni2 in arohanam and using it in avarohanam is repeatedly marked/pronounced. However, he didnt compromise melody for grammar, and he had no inhibitions in introducing a Ni3 just to add to some extra effect. Gifted to have this isai saraswathi ilaiyaraaja with us !
    Last edited by vel; 6th January 2012 at 11:58 AM.

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    Administrator Diamond Hubber RR's Avatar
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    vel, I tend to agree with thumburu. Predominently they are cliched. We are expecting a lot more from IR - not just light thukkadas.

    BTW why are you guys not seen on ROS thread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RR View Post
    vel, I tend to agree with thumburu. Predominently they are cliched. We are expecting a lot more from IR - not just light thukkadas.

    BTW why are you guys not seen on ROS thread?
    hi RR, thanks for your views. I for one would not want to see a sarawathi or even a senchuriti as cliched. Thats my personal view. Now the retort will be that those sabha kutcheri gamakkams are absent or the song is light etc.....if those gamakkams are added then it is not a folk number. The grammar originally defined for devotion will not be suitable for the different filmy situations/light music.

    Even in case of the ragas listed by her, the treatment by IR is not stale. Raaja has used hundreds of keeravanis but still people think Gali ningi (rama rajyam) was a genius melody. The raga is repetitive, but the treatment has never been repetitive. Thats my take.

    Regarding ROS, the front page's permanent link is not leading to the page and it is very tough to land to that page and i have to Google to reach there. Can you please check the first page so that the link up is corrected?
    Last edited by vel; 6th January 2012 at 12:27 PM.

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    Though I have no complaints about Sri rama Rajyam or even the choice of raagas! but in general, I feel that I am seeing more of the usual ragas than the non-cliched one. I kind of agree with Thumburu - looking at all films as such. I mean, we dont have songs Amudhe Tamizhe anymore. I rarely see Malayamarutham etc. Vel's example of Senchuruti & Saraswathi are one off cases, and there too - I think a slightly lesser knolwedgeable fan (like me) cannot comprehend the ragas used. I mean, the treatment was such. Like say, when he gave a Saara yeh aalam in Shiva-2006, I who never knew simhendramadhyamam before, atleast felt that this was something different, something unusual, some very different raaga. And my curiousity led me to Simhendramadhyamam. I usually dont experience such kind of stuff in recent songs of raaja. The sample set has kind of shrunk to: Mohanam, Sindhu Bhairavi, Suddha Dhanyasi, Bhageshree/Sriranjani, Pahadi, Keeravani, Kalyani, Hamsanandi, panthuvarali etc or if he slightly goes further, it is a Suddha Saveri (Manasoram) or Charukesi (Aavani Thumbi). again, I am not talking about Rama Rajyam here, because he did explore well in that film - given the constraints he had. He did well even in Uliyin Osai. But i am talking about other films. In short, my request to him would be to dust those 'becoming rare' ragas such as Abhogi, Bahudari, shanmukhapriya, Sree, Nalinikanthi, amritavarshini, Kalyana vasantham, tilang, Lalitha etc. He never needed classical music-based situations to wrap the classical music richness in his music. That was his (highest) strength. I wish he chooses these neglected lot. challenging... but thats what he has been taking up all along.. challenges.

    Padithurai had raagas like Maand, Dhenuka and Saranga - How unusual they are! Unfortunately, the album is lying in cans. If only, he does something like that in other albums - that are getting released!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aakarsh View Post
    Though I have no complaints about Sri rama Rajyam or even the choice of raagas! but in general, I feel that I am seeing more of the usual ragas than the non-cliched one. I kind of agree with Thumburu - looking at all films as such. I mean, we dont have songs Amudhe Tamizhe anymore. I rarely see Malayamarutham etc. Vel's example of Senchuruti & Saraswathi are one off cases, and there too - I think a slightly lesser knolwedgeable fan (like me) cannot comprehend the ragas used. I mean, the treatment was such. Like say, when he gave a Saara yeh aalam in Shiva-2006, I who never knew simhendramadhyamam before, atleast felt that this was something different, something unusual, some very different raaga. And my curiousity led me to Simhendramadhyamam. I usually dont experience such kind of stuff in recent songs of raaja. The sample set has kind of shrunk to: Mohanam, Sindhu Bhairavi, Suddha Dhanyasi, Bhageshree/Sriranjani, Pahadi, Keeravani, Kalyani, Hamsanandi, panthuvarali etc or if he slightly goes further, it is a Suddha Saveri (Manasoram) or Charukesi (Aavani Thumbi). again, I am not talking about Rama Rajyam here, because he did explore well in that film - given the constraints he had. He did well even in Uliyin Osai. But i am talking about other films. In short, my request to him would be to dust those 'becoming rare' ragas such as Abhogi, Bahudari, shanmukhapriya, Sree, Nalinikanthi, amritavarshini, Kalyana vasantham, tilang, Lalitha etc. He never needed classical music-based situations to wrap the classical music richness in his music. That was his (highest) strength. I wish he chooses these neglected lot. challenging... but thats what he has been taking up all along.. challenges. Padithurai had raagas like Maand, Dhenuka and Saranga - How unusual they are! Unfortunately, the album is lying in cans. If only, he does something like that in other albums - that are getting released!

    hi aakarsh, even i called it saraswathi since it gives a easy tag to relate to the scale that Raaja has used. It is highly incovenient to always say the scale SR2M2PD2S | SN2D2PM2G2R2S has been used ! So dont worry if you could not comprehend the raga name. Raaja sees 7 notes as 7 notes, more than seeing it as carnatic, western or folk. That is his greatest strength. He knows what addition and deletion and modulation will lead to what change in the emotion.....How many such rare permutations and combinations he may have already done, that we may have not even noticed, is yet unknown. For example, S R2 G2 M1 P N3 S | S N3 P M1 G2 R2 S is a rare hindustani scale, that is close to patdheep. Did we appreciate that Raaja has used this scale in many songs? Why, because we dont know the scale or are new to the scale. When there is no one to appreciate rare raga usages, our right to criticize the usual ragas being over used gets greatly diluted IMHO.

    My whole point is, unless we first fully understand what is being served lovingly on our plate, it is unfair of us to complain about the meal !
    Last edited by vel; 6th January 2012 at 01:48 PM.

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    ok anyways, thats her opinion/wishlist and she has every right to keep it. (Sorry for the digressions guys please move on with the thread topic.)

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    I get your point Vel. But I am not talking from a mere "Raaga recognizing" perspective! It doesnt matter if I dont recognize it. A Kannil Paarvai from naan kadavul was a raaga that I didnt know before. yes, raaja used it before but I didnt know that Kannil Paarvai was Rasikapriya. But someone with lesser familiarity to Raaja's repertoire also end up liking it - because of the shock value he gave to the song. Same with Abhinayam kaatru (Uliyin Osai). I didnt know the raaga when I heard the song. And even today, I need to do google search to know which raaga it was. But... it struck a chord. because it was different from the usual. I am sure that the same person might not give the same rank to Hindolam song in Rama Rajyam or Pudhu Pournami in Mohanam (which I like anyway). I have enjoyed a 100 Kalyanis from him and he still amazes me in Amruthamaayi Abhayamaayi. I dont complain that. But... for a change, why not an Amruthavarshini - a raaga which he used for mere 7 seconds in the beginning of Sri Rama Lera. Why just teasers? why not go full throttle?

    Also, from a statistical point of view - All along 80s, his music covered a wider range of raagas. I am not sure if there is really no one to appreciate rare raaga usage today. If there is no one today, there was no one in 80s as well. And Raaja, always experimented to satisfy his own creative urge. I am sure Raaja might not have suddenly felt in 2000 - "Audience appreciated my Malayamarutham in 80s, now there is no such audience, so let me not choose Malayalamarutham at all". There must be some other reasons for this shrunken sample-set of raagas - Reasons which we dont know.

    But whats wrong in yearning (or complaining)? Atleast, we have a selfish motive - to see him explore other raagas. Honestly, I cannot think of any other composer who can go into raagas such as Poornachandrika or Senchuruti as you have cited. If he is the only composer I can think of, who can pull that off with aplomb, i dont see it as unfair, in expecting/wishing it from him.

    He exploring other raagas is like serving "specials" in food. I am quite happy with the meal plate for sure. But those feasty specials - which he dished out to the audience in 80s, occasionally... I would want them again now - mixed along with my meal plate! Now thats what he was doing way back. It is only now that he became choosy.

    Suresh knows how much I have been craving for Padithurai - one of the BIG reasons being - usage of lesser-used raagas such as Saaranga!
    Last edited by aakarsh; 6th January 2012 at 02:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aakarsh View Post
    Honestly, I cannot think of any other composer who can go into raagas such as Poornachandrika or Senchuruti as you have cited. If he is the only composer I can think of, who can pull that off with aplomb, i dont see it as unfair, in expecting/wishing it from him.

    very valid point that !

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    vel,

    I see your point of view. Glad to know you are enjoying all his songs. For me, while vidyasagars are tuning rasikapriya's and nasika booshani's, he should be drubbing these guys aside and giving even more complex/sophisticated scales (or at least not run-of-the-mill). He had a great opportunity with sri rama jeyam, and when I heard the songs, I went.. oh.. not again. Not to crib on the melody or orchestration, I was just disappointed. The recent 3-note and 2-note compositions are some morale boosters though.. Let's see on his future scores..

    btw, the ros link is fixed. Didn't realise it was broken.

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