Tamils should speak in "Tamil" with much pride

[P_R]

Perhaps because this dubbing is usually outsourced in Matunga to a set of professionals, who probably will go to grave believing that this is the right way to speak tamil . I have heard usually it is a family enterprise to maximise profit(guess. These are fixed price contracts)

I am not sure it can be that simple Plum.
The usual 'problem' I know with Matunga's predominant Tamil brahmin population- who along with Malayalees, are a majority in the adworld - is that the only Tamil they speak is the one they speak at home, which is a Tamil brahmin register. So they are by no means familiar with the generic Tamil turn of phrase. They are completely unqualified to translate into Tamil.

I have a Hazaron Kwaishein Aisi DVD which has Tamil subtitles in brahmin register - it is hilarious Chandralekha Ranjan காலத்து, "இவா ஊதுவா, அவா வருவா" types. சீரியஸான படத்தைக் கெடுத்துட்டான் படுபாவி.

But the problem I am talking about is a complete breakdown of the syntactic structure. You don't have to have much acquaintance with slang/register anything to read it and know it makes no sense.

Consider a typical TV ad line:
டாக்டர் சொல்றாங்க: கிருமிகள் அழியும் இரண்டு மடங்கு அதிகமாய்.

You kinda understand what they are saying. So? What kind of nonsense is this? This rankles nearly no one nowadays.
This has been forcibly converted from Hindi.

And look at this further:

டாக்டர் சொல்றாங்க - பேச்சு வழக்கு
இரண்டு - formal உரைநடை (as opposed to ரெண்டு)
அதிகமாய் - back to பேச்சு வழக்கு (as opposed to அதிகமாக)

All within the span on one bloody sentence.

Why doesn't it rankle enough of the TV watching audience, is my question. We have kinda resigned to: if I can kinda understand it overall, then fine.

[Senareb]

IMO, SL tamil slang is much better than 'madras baashai'...

[rajraj]

Imagine, that's how things may have remained in TN too had it not been for the pioneers who took the lead, and would have no doubt faced so much ridicule, in finding very Tamil words for everyday expressions.

prabhu: Go back to the 50s and earlier to see how Tamil periodicals used sanskrit words. Tamil has been cleaned up a lot in the last 60 years. It was parikshai not thErvu, nadhi not aaRu, sarvakalaasaalai not palkalai kazhagam, samudram not kadal, ................... I am happy to see the change!
Even names of places were sanskritised. In thevaram trinity period a place was called 'mayilaaduthurai". It became mayuram and changed to Mayavaram
Now it is Mayiladuthurai. Someone said, " If you want to destroy a culture destroy its language first". In Tamilnadu it did not work !

[P_R]

Yeah. It was திருமறைக்காடு when அப்பர் sang and it became வேதாரண்யம் later. Unfortunately people think the other way round.

Any effort to change would have faced so much ridicule and hostility. But I wouldn't slot all that just under vested interests. For the common people, simple inertia is a huge factor.

To be honest I should say, I able to say all this with the benefit of hindsight. If anything were to change my spoken language today, I myself may drag my feet before internalizing such changes. It takes a vision to rise above one's times and push these changes. The people who introduced the changes faced all criticism and ridicule and we enjoy the benefits today.

[P_R]

அறிவார்ந்த விஷயங்கள் உள்ள(தாக நம்பப்படும்) சிறுபத்திரிகைகளில் மட்டும் என்ன வாழ்கிறதான்.
(குமுதத்தின் இலக்கியப் இதழான) தீராநதியில் வந்த ஒரு கட்டுரையைப் படிக்க முயன்ற அனுபவத்தை இங்கே எழுதியிருக்கிறேன் - http://dagalti.blogspot.in/2011/08/blog-post_7422.html

[rajraj]

Any effort to change would have faced so much ridicule and hostility. But I wouldn't slot all that just under vested interests.

Prabhu: I don't know how much you follow carnatic music. Browse "The Hindu" editions of early 50s. There were articles asserting that Tamil was not fit for carnatic music. Of course, it was ignorance and arrogance. They probably did not know that thevaaram hymns were the first to be set to ragaas (paNNs) by the composers themselves. Telugu was dominant in carnatic vocal concerts. Even Bharathiyar ridiculed it. They did not accept Bharathiyar to be a Mahakavi either. I heard Aruna Sairam sing several Tamil compositions in a concert. In a concert by Sudha Ragunathan RTP had a Tamil composition. Sanjay Subramaniam sang three Tamil compostions( by Muthu ThaNdavar and others) in a concert. That makes me very happy. I sing Tamil,Telugu and Sanskrit compositions.

[P_R]

Of course. The contempt for Tamil in such spheres and the gradual reclamation is very much a sociopolitical question.

What I meant was something like this: when ஜில்லா was changed to மாவட்டம் - nearly everyone would have scoffed at it.
Some of them would have said that out of contempt for the language and dismissing it as just chauvinism. However, I contend that many of them would have - due to sheer inertia- thoughtlessly dismissed the changes as 'unnecessary'. Even we could be guilty of such inertia when any changes come today to the language we speak. That's what I meant.

So, while commending those who had the vision to rise above the times and push such changes ahead, bearing the brunt of ridicule, I stopping short of completely othering those who were resistant to changes

[SoftSword]

avlOdhooram yaen pOganum...
madras-chennai was not a smooth transition either... many were believing that chennai was the tamil translation of madras...
another kinda belief is, madras is formal and chennai is colloqial...
the main problem is ignorance...

ennaikkaettaa 10th varai kattaaya thamizh vazhi kalvi vaenumnu solluvaen...
PR: unna kaekkakkoodiya nelamai innum varala...

[Bala (Karthik)]

I am not sure it can be that simple Plum.
The usual 'problem' I know with Matunga's predominant Tamil brahmin population- who along with Malayalees, are a majority in the adworld - is that the only Tamil they speak is the one they speak at home, which is a Tamil brahmin register. So they are by no means familiar with the generic Tamil turn of phrase. They are completely unqualified to translate into Tamil.

I have a Hazaron Kwaishein Aisi DVD which has Tamil subtitles in brahmin register - it is hilarious Chandralekha Ranjan காலத்து, "இவா ஊதுவா, அவா வருவா" types. சீரியஸான படத்தைக் கெடுத்துட்டான் படுபாவி.

But the problem I am talking about is a complete breakdown of the syntactic structure. You don't have to have much acquaintance with slang/register anything to read it and know it makes no sense.

Consider a typical TV ad line:
டாக்டர் சொல்றாங்க: கிருமிகள் அழியும் இரண்டு மடங்கு அதிகமாய்.

You kinda understand what they are saying. So? What kind of nonsense is this? This rankles nearly no one nowadays.
This has been forcibly converted from Hindi.

And look at this further:

டாக்டர் சொல்றாங்க - பேச்சு வழக்கு
இரண்டு - formal உரைநடை (as opposed to ரெண்டு)
அதிகமாய் - back to பேச்சு வழக்கு (as opposed to அதிகமாக)

All within the span on one bloody sentence.

Why doesn't it rankle enough of the TV watching audience, is my question. We have kinda resigned to: if I can kinda understand it overall, then fine.

Yes, Mumbai Tamil = Palakkad Iyers or Thirunelveli thamizhar and idhukku karanam Matunga mama/mamis obviously but neenga solra madhiri syntax-a edhukku ippadi sedhaikkaranga nu purila
Any idea if this is the case with Telugu/Malyal/Kannad also?

[Plum]

No - I speak with some authority on the subject. Matunga dhaan. Adhe maama maamis dhaan. The strange syntax is an attempt to sound tamizhey but simply translating in indhi grammar. Sila pala contacts irukku. NetlEyE blogs siladhu track this - romba naalukku munnaadi padikkara vazhakkam undu. Ippo touch vittu pochu. Link kedaichaa podaren.