Wipeout Corruption from India

[kirukan]

Hi All,

Thanks for all your input.Other than app_engine there is no positive support for this idea.It means I have to drop this and accept we ppl cannot do anything to change the socity.
Media and popular heros can do that? I cannot take that point becuse all medias are corrupted now, day are gone where media was neutral.
Intha hubbil ulavargal palar nattu nallanil akkarai ullavargal athalal ingu ullavargal ondru sernthal oru solution kidaikkum endru ethirparthen.Nalla ulangal silathaga irunthalum athu onru sernthu sinthithal athan sakthi athigam athanal sathikka iyalum endru ninaithen.

Its simple saying its happening like that this and all.But its hard to find a route to solve.I dont know what we are going to leave for next generation.I am realy worried.Let it be culture,character,water,enviroment etc.
I accept it should start from self.But how to make that point to be known to all individuals that it shud start from self.There will be lot of person who may change if they get a support.How to do that?
I agree that we cannot get any work done in governtment depts without bribing.I also have done it.I cannot get a passport without bribing police for verification.I cant be adamant in that.it will be useless.
But how to change the system.Do any one of you agree this as a problem.If you agree as a problem I am damn sure there will be a solution there is no problem in the world without solution.

As a single person I cannot do anything in this regard.
Only thing I can do now is pray for the changes nothing else can be done...

kirukan

[joe]

I agree that we cannot get any work done in governtment depts without bribing.

இதை நான் மறுக்கிறேன் .லஞ்சம் கொடுக்காமல் காரியங்கள் நடக்கும் ..ஆனால் நீங்கள் நினைக்கிற வேகத்தில் அல்ல ..கால தாமதம் ஆகும் அல்லது ஆக்கப்படும் ..ஆனால் நடக்கவே முடியாட்து போனால் அதற்கு சட்டபூர்வமாக நடவடிக்கை எடுக்க முடியும் .அதற்கு தேவையான பொறுமையும் முயற்சியும் இங்கு பலருக்கும் கிடையாது ...அடுத்தவர்களுக்கு அறிவுரை சொல்லிவிட்டு ,தனக்கென்று வரும் போது போராட நேரமும் அதற்காக முயற்சியும் எடுக்க சலிட்த்துக்கொண்டு , அதற்கான விலையைக் கொடுத்து முடிந்த வரை சீக்கிரம் தனது காரியத்தை முடித்துக்கொள்வதில் அனைவரும் காட்டும் அவசரமே லஞ்சம் வாங்குபவனின் மூலதனம் .

கொடுப்பவன் இருக்கும்வரை வாங்குபவன் இருப்பான்.

[kirukan]

I agree that we cannot get any work done in governtment depts without bribing.

இதை நான் மறுக்கிறேன் .லஞ்சம் கொடுக்காமல் காரியங்கள் நடக்கும் ..ஆனால் நீங்கள் நினைக்கிற வேகத்தில் அல்ல ..கால தாமதம் ஆகும் அல்லது ஆக்கப்படும் ..ஆனால் நடக்கவே முடியாட்து போனால் அதற்கு சட்டபூர்வமாக நடவடிக்கை எடுக்க முடியும் .அதற்கு தேவையான பொறுமையும் முயற்சியும் இங்கு பலருக்கும் கிடையாது ...அடுத்தவர்களுக்கு அறிவுரை சொல்லிவிட்டு ,தனக்கென்று வரும் போது போராட நேரமும் அதற்காக முயற்சியும் எடுக்க சலிட்த்துக்கொண்டு , அதற்கான விலையைக் கொடுத்து முடிந்த வரை சீக்கிரம் தனது காரியத்தை முடித்துக்கொள்வதில் அனைவரும் காட்டும் அவசரமே லஞ்சம் வாங்குபவனின் மூலதனம் .

கொடுப்பவன் இருக்கும்வரை வாங்குபவன் இருப்பான்.

நன்றி Joe, உங்களுடைய கருத்துக்களுக்கு.லஞ்சம் கொடுப்பவர்களில் முயற்ச்சி எடுக்க சலிப்பவர்களும் உண்டு, எடுக்க முடியாத சூழ்நிலைகளும் உண்டு.வாதத்திற்்காக நீங்கள் இதையும் மறுக்க முடியும்.என்னுடைய கருத்து அதுவல்ல.
இதில் தனிமனிதனின் பங்கைவிட ஒரு குழுவின் பங்கு நல்ல பலன் தரும் என்பதே.

உயிர் போராடும் சமயம் விலை கொடுத்து முடிப்பதே முடியும் அங்கு காலம் தாழ்த்தலாகாது என்பதே என் கருத்து.


அப்படி நடக்கும் இடத்தில் ஒரு கூட்டதின் ஒலியே எடுபடுமேயன்றி தனி மனித குரலல்ல.

-கிறுக்கன்

[joe]

நன்றி தாமரை

[Plum]

PR, thats a great post. Shorn of rhetoric. We need to define what is corruption without getting dogmatic or rhetorical. Was it a bribe you gave? Sonna maadhiri, what does the contractor lose? In contrast, how does that small boy gain? Great points.
(Adhellam irukkattum, daily-a orutharai train ethi vuduveenga? Bayangara samooga sevagar pola )

[app_engine]

I agree that we cannot get any work done in governtment depts without bribing.

இதை நான் மறுக்கிறேன் .லஞ்சம் கொடுக்காமல் காரியங்கள் நடக்கும் ..ஆனால் நீங்கள் நினைக்கிற வேகத்தில் அல்ல ..கால தாமதம் ஆகும் அல்லது ஆக்கப்படும் ..ஆனால் நடக்கவே முடியாட்து போனால் அதற்கு சட்டபூர்வமாக நடவடிக்கை எடுக்க முடியும் .

Good point!

Sometimes even threatening that one's going to take the legal route works (if the fellow is a small-timer without much muscle behind). At other times asking to meet the higher official works too (I've applied both these techniques successfully and what a lower clerk wanted money for was signed off by the "straight-forward-officer" without any bribe).

Computerization has helped in some areas in bringing down the in-between-agents thus reducing some manipulations (best example ease of getting railway tickets / seats without bribing in 90's compared to 80's and prior).

Reg. traffic police - there's absolutely no excuse to bribe them. Simple reason is they can't keep you waiting forever on the road (they have so many other customers) and you can get loud in insisting for a receipt with so many onlookers. Interestingly, I've never been stopped while driving a car in India, bayangara comedy, they seem to be interested in stopping only motor cycles don't know why...and even while riding motor cycle, I've never bribed

[anbu_kathir]

I agree that we cannot get any work done in governtment depts without bribing. ... cannot get a passport without bribing police for verification.
kirukan

Surprisingly, I did get my police verification done without bribing.
I had to go twice to the station because the first time, the inspector was not there. There was a guy in the station who handled address verification for passport, he was also away when I walked into the police station. I look like a geek and a thayir saadham guy, but I could see no 'aaha graaki maatikichu' gestures from the people that were there.

The guy who handled the verification process came in after a while and took my details. He asked me to write a letter and told me to come back after a while since the inspector was not there. He even gave me his mobile number so that I could call him up and enquire if the inspector had returned. This was a great help because eventually it turned out that the inspector never came back that day and so I was asked to come back the next day.

The next morning, the inspector was spot on time. His personal verification of me took 5 mins, and a signature later, I was done! It was a police station in Bangalore, I didn't know Kannada and I was wondering how I would get past any crap they might throw at me, but I was dealt with in English by both the first guy and the Inspector. I couldn't believe how formally it went.

In a thread that asks for exposing corrupt people, I take the opportunity to bring to light these guys. Kudos to the police station (Sadashivanagar, Bangalore) and Kudos to those government servants!

Love and Light.

P.S:: There had to be a P.S. . After all that happened, there was a low level guy who did mention that 'one must compulsorily collect 50 bucks for passport verification.' ....Otherwise, it was almost a dream-like experience.

[P_R]

I remember when I got my passport in 1999. A police constable came to my house in Madurai. I was very fastidious about not paying him anything. Resisted all kinds of reasoning from the folks at home that there was no one-to-one gain from him and that it was no different from a tip. If for instance the whole passport verification was outsourced to a private agency would I find it reluctant to tip ? That question kind of dislodged me but I stubbornly refused to budge. Got the passport.

This year it was up for renewal. I didn't use any touts. Stood in different queues myself for nearly six hours to complete the procedures. A few days later a police constable came home. Welcomed him in offered the buttermilk, supplied the ration card he wanted etc. He didn't ask for anything but as he was leaving I gave him a hundred rupees and thanked him.

I am no shying away from the fact that that was a bribe.
What is the bribe, what is the courtesy here ? Buttermilk is far enough, this far and no further is perhaps the rule we should follow. He came in the morning before I left for work. He could have chosen to come in the afternoon and given a report that I don't exist. Or I may have had to bunk work to get the verification done.

My reaction would have been quite different if he had asked for it. It would have rubbed my wrong side (honestly I doubt that too nowadays).But when it looked like it was completely in my court I felt no guilt in giving away what seemed like a generous tip.But it cannot be denied that the most important reason was this: I didn't want to run the risk of the policeman writing an adverse report. I could of course stay and challenge. But I absolutely had to leave abroad on an official trip the next week. No time to stay and challenge.

I won't say I did not have a choice. I did. Everyone always has a choice. I could have dared and not tipped. And if there was some problem gone about attending it, skipped the meetings. It would have caused some major inconveniences at work. But I chose not to. It wasn't worth the hassle I thought. That is why my mind labours to find justifications like: well he did not demand, poor guy cycled in the morning to get here it's like a transport allowance, I would have surely tipped a pizza delivery boy, assume it was a private agency and they said for home delivery of the verification service I would have had to pay Rs. 100 then I would surely have had. I would have got a receipt for that. But that is another issue. The fact that I bribed is one issue the fact that I contributed Rs. 100 to the black economy is another. The second bothers me (not much as the amount is small). The first does not bother me now.

[wrap07]

Dear Kirukkan/all,


There is a "Right to Information Act" which covers all public institutions (except ofcourse Jammu and Kashmir) with which anyone can call for information as follows:-

"Information means any material in any form including records, documents, memos, e-mails, opinions, advices, press releases, circulars, orders, logbooks, contracts, reports, papers, samples, models, data material held in any electronic form and information relating to any private body which can be accessed by a public authority under any other law for the time being in force".

Every Govt Depart are having a Public Information officer/s for this purpose and the information sought for, must be provided within 30 days from the date of request except in case of dept to dept matters.

The request can be made in writing with a fee of Rs.10 by cash in Post office or DD and if it the fee is more, the PIO will intimate the same to the applicant ensuring the reasonableness of the fee.

If the Public information officer is unable to respond to the request, he should detail the reasons why the information could not be provided and who is the appellate authority for that.
The Public Information officer will be subjected to penalty and disciplinary action in case of delay, obstruction or incomplte information.

In case of no/ incomplete response, we can directly file the complaint with the CIC, appellate authority in the website with details.

Subsequent to this act, Every public office has to give comple details of officers, duties and responsibilities, their pay details(grade wise), procedure followed in its decision making process, including channels of supervision and accountability, the norms set by it for the discharge of its functions, the rules, regulations, instructions, manuals and records used by its employees for discharging its functions. These details can be accessed from the Websites of the Government Departments.

http://righttoinformation.gov.in/
(detailed in all languages)


There is also Central Vigilance Commission wherein you can file your complaints about any particular official covering central govt and autonomous bodies. This does not cover State Govt Department staff. Complaints can be filed in CVC website and also by post. In case of the complainant wanting to maintain secrecy, " Public Interest Disclosure and Protection of Informer" mode can be follwed which is also called whistle blower and it can be done only be post wherein the complaint can be given separtely and the address details of the person can be given separately for confidentiality.

CVC has published in their website list of officials under investiagation/pending prosecution. One can even get to know the status of their complaint though their web site. CVC website has performance report on monthly basis also.

http://cvc.nic.in/

[wrap07]

I have mentioned the systems in place, apart from the vigilance setup in each of the offices, to control/curb the menace. But, there have been instances of delays in responses and officials who were willing to provide the information shutted out. But there is more awareness as also some accountability as a result of the above systems. & Computerisation (though with lot of resistance) has helped in streamlining the functioning of Govt setup.