30th July 2008, 10:11 PM
Thank you for the clarification.
Originally Posted by NOV
My guess is that most Perumal temples in Malaysia follow the vaikanasa tradition and not the Pancaratra tradition as :
Originally Posted by NOV
a) the priests are likely to be from vaikanasa temples in India.
b) temple management adopting Tirupathi's standard of worship.
c) Tirupathi Devasthanam's active promotion of the Vaikanasa tradition, like through sponsorhip etc.
Vaikanasa and Pancaratra are 2 different texts on ritualistic worship. Vaikanasas are strictly hereditary and follow the vaikhanasa agama. Based on their text, they reject the panca samkara (5 sacraments), reverance to Alvars or acaryas like Ramanuja etc.
Vaikanasa vaisnava priests serve in most of the Vishnu temples in Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh. The best example of a Vaikanasa Temple - Tirupathi, Venkateswara and the best example of a Pancaratra temple - Sri Rangam Ranganatha Temple.
The outward appearance of Vaikanasas and Srivaisnavas is the same. And due to the influence of Srivaisnavism, vaikanasas have adopted some Srivaisnava ideology including the Tenkalai - Vadakalai schism.
30th July 2008 10:11 PM
30th July 2008, 10:19 PM
Could you please throw some lights on the mantras used in Vaishnavites marriage and its meaning?
Sarva dharman parithyajya mamekam sharanam vraja, aham thva sarvapapebhyo mokshayishyami ma suchaha
31st July 2008, 06:48 AM
Thank you Jimano. Based on your explanation, more research is required before coming to a conclusion....
For instance the Puchong Perumal temple has both chakraththaalvar and aandaal sannidhis. The priests are from Srirangam (One of them conducted my graha pravEsam rites and makes real fantastic puliyOdorai .)
Situated in an obscure town in Malaysia, perhaps, this is the only temple in the Asia-Pacific region
that follows the pancaratra agama tradition of Sri Vaisnavism.
It is also quite likely that the differences you have mentioned have become murky, once outside the traditional home of TN.
Never argue with a fool or he will drag you down to his level and beat you at it through sheer experience!
31st July 2008, 02:33 PM
Listed are the marriage rituals mentioned by Andal in her Varanam Ayiram, which is also recited during marriages.
Originally Posted by Arthi
Panigrahanam (Hand holding)
mattaLam kottaa varisangam nin ruda
muttudait tama niraitazhnda pandarkizh
maittunan nambi madusUdhan vandennaik
kaittalam parrak kanakkanden tozhI naan
The drums were sounding and the conches were blowing non-stop. Under the canopy decorated with hanging pearl garlands the Lord Madusudhan grabbed my hand tightly. That was my dream, my friend !
Symbolic meaning of the ritual
The groom formally accepts the bride and takes her hand while reciting ritual formulae.
Saptapadi (Seven steps)
vaai nallaar nalla marai odhi mandhirathaal pachilai naanal paduthu paridhiveithu kaaichinamaakaliranran en kai patri theevalam seiya kana kanden thozhi naan
Vedic priest chanting the good vedas and reciting the appropriate mantras, spread the green grass surrounding the agni and placed the wooden sticks on them. I saw Krishna, came majestically like an angry elephant, hold my right hand and slowly we circumbulate the fire. That was my dream, my friend !
Step 1: To give you unlimited food. "Ekamishe Vishnus tvanvetu" -
Step 2. To give you excellent health and energy "dve Urje Vishnus tvanvetu" -
Step 3. To make you perform your vrithas (rituals) as ordained in Vedas, during your life time. "trini vrataya Vishnus tvanvetu"
Step 4. To give you happiness in life. "catvAri mAyO bhavAya vishNus tvANvEtu" -
Step 5. To make your cows and good animals to grow in strength and in numbers. "panca pasUbhyo Vishnus tvanvetu"
Step 6. To make all the seasons be beneficial to you."shad rutobhyo Vishnus tvanvetu "
Step 7. To make the fire sacrifices performed by you in your life to be successful and free from hindrances. "saptas saptabhyo hotrabhyo Vishnus tvanetu" -
The saptapati mantras end with
"sakha saptapadabhava" - Be my friend with these 7 steps
"sakhayou saptapadabhabhuva" - We are both friends now after these 7 steps.
Symbolic meaning of the ritual
The couple take seven steps together symbolic of the journey of life which they are beginning and in which they will be inseparable companions. Each step is sanctified with a blessing.
Ashmarohanam (Treading the Mill-stone)
immaikum ezhezhu piravikkum patravaan nammai udayavan naaraayaNan nambi chemmai udaya thirukaiyaal thazh patri ammi midhikka kana kanden thozhi naan
Our Lord Narayana, who is our protector for us in this birth and
all the forthcoming births, and who is filled with auspicious attributes, held my right foot with His red-hued glorious hand and placed it on the mill stone. That was my dream, my freind !
Groom recites the mantra- Be strong in your loyalty to me, like this stone "asmeva tvam sthira bhava"
The bride is requested to tread upon a mill stone and exhorted to be firm in her marital duties and to try to resolve all problems in the marriage.
Laja Homam (Offering of Puffed rice)
varisilai vaaL mugathu ennaimaar thaam vandhittu erimugam paarithu ennai munne nirutthi arimugan achuthan kai mel en kai vaithu pori mugam thatta kana kanden thozhi naan
My brothers, with eye brows like the bent bow ignited the fire by adding wood and made me stand. Placing my hands on top of the majestic Lord Hari, they put puff rice that I offered unto the fire. That was my dream, my friend !
Symbolic meaning of the ritual
This is to symbolise the burning of past karmas and wishing for fertility and longevity of the husband. (She is assisted by her brother who is also given a gift by the groom's family)
For more details please refer to
31st July 2008, 02:53 PM
wow nice meaning...
i know varanamaayiram... i just love and surprised that how andal dream abt lord vishnu!!!
is there any other website to know the full meaning of the mantras ???(whatever the preist say in a marriage)
Sarva dharman parithyajya mamekam sharanam vraja, aham thva sarvapapebhyo mokshayishyami ma suchaha
2nd August 2008, 10:06 PM
.Vaikanasa & Pancharathra.!.. What.? Why.? How.?
Ah.! My Dear Friends.!… Thank you very much for so much of Rich information… about the spread of Sri-Vaishnavam outside the Holy Land of its Origin, India.
Originally Posted by Jimano
Well. Some of the points You have raised… I have to clarify
Pancharathra and Vaikanasa are the two sorts of Vaishnava Agama Sasthras stipulated for the conduct of the SriVaishnava Temples, Poojas, Homa- Rituals, Festivals and Administration.
Such Agama Sasthras have nothing to do with the aspect and concern of the DEVOTEES .
For example Vaikanasa system of Temples in India are Thirumala- Thirupathi, Sreeperumpudur, Srivilliputhur, Oppiliappan Temple near Kumbakonam.
Pancharathra system of Temple is Srirangam. (In fact converted from Vaikanasa by Ramanuja Acharya)
What is the difference between Pancharathra and Vaikanasa systems of Temple-Conduct.?
(1) In the conduct of Poojas there are two Sections… as Manthras and Thanthras.
Manthras are the recitations of the relevant Pooja- Manthras… suiting to the specific purpose and occasion.
Thanthras are Prayogas… similar to keeping our two Palms in worshipping posture while we pray at Temple or elsewhere
…Holding the Nose while performing Pranayamas..
…keeping the two Palms up and down holding the Poonool (Upaveedham / Janeyu) while wearing a new Poonool… and so on.
In the Vaikanasa system… the Thanthras are more than the Manthras… which are more important and Vital…
…while in Pancharathra system… the Manthras are more than the Thanthras.
(2) In Pancharathra system… according to the urgent needs and circumstances… the Poojas can be reduced, skipped off and confined to lesser time of performance…
…whereas in Vaikanasa system… under No circumstances and justification the conduct of Poojas can be restricted or any part skipped off.
(3) In Pancharathra system… the Poojas and Administration are conducted and managed by the Employees… who can be paid as Remuneration for their services….
..and the Prasadams of God are obligatory and not a matter of right for such Employees… since they are treated at par with all other common devotees.
..whereas in Vaikanasa system all the Archakas and such of those servants serving within the Garbhagruhas (Sanctum Sactorum) are the HONOURABLE SERVICEMEN …
..entitled for No Remuneration… but to be taken care of on their welfare… by the Devotees.
But the first share of Prasadams is mandatory as their right… in return for service to the Deity… since offered to them by God Himself.
The Cost-free residence for such Honourable Servicemen… proximate to the Temple is mandatory for Vaikanasa Archakas and Administrators…
..enabling them to conveniently concentrate on their duties at the Temple.
(4) Samasrayanam or the so called Pancha-Samskaras are the must for Pancharathra Vaidheeka servants…
…whereas there is No Conventional Samasrayanam for Vaikanasa Archaka Servicemen…
…since it is performed for them in a different process… even while the child is in Garbha-vasam.(Pregnancy stage).
Thengalai Temples are more than Vadakalai system… not only outside India…
..but also within India… amongst the 108 Divya-kshethras..
One of these Two sects has cropped up just within the past 400 years...
..after the Lifetimes of the Acharyas Ramanuja, Desika and Manavala maamuni.
Which one?... I leave it to your Guess.
Vadakalai Acharya Swami Desikacharyas preachings cover both the Thengalai and Vadakalai concepts of divergent faiths…
..but ultimately bound by the basic stipulations of the so called Sri “Ramanuja Darsanam”
..laid down by Sri Ramanujacharya…
…thus ensuring NO DIVISION amongst the Sri-Vaishnava devotees…
…under any yardstick of vivi-sections… amongst the BROAD-MINDED… Human approach of UNIVERSAL-LOVE …
…leading towards UNIFIED DEVOTION towards One God …
… for the Collective Social-Advancement coupled with SPIRITUAL EMANCIPATION.
[My Serial Article in Tamil… titled THAMIZH-MARHAI THIRUVAAYMOZHI… under our Hub Magazine… throws more light on Sri Vaishnavam... quoted herebelow
28th August 2008, 07:14 AM
Taniyangal (Sri Vaisnava Preliminary Invocation Prayers)
1 Tenkalai - Periya Jiyar Taniyan
sri sailesa dayapatram dhi-bhaktyadi gunarnavam
yatindra pravanam vande ramya jamataram munim.
I pay my obeisance to sage Manavalamamuni who is an ocean of virtues such as intelligence and devotion and who received the mercy of his guru Sri Sailesa and is so attached to Ramanuja.
(Tradition has it that this prayer was submitted at the feet of Manavala Mamuni Swami by Lord Ranganatha; after Manavala mamuni completed his 1 year tiruvoimozhi discourse at Sri Rangam. During the sattumurai, Perumal appeared as a 5 year old and recited this prayer in praise of his guru Manavalamamuni).
1.a For Vadakalai (substitute 1 with 1.a) - Vedanta Desikan Taniyan
ramanuja dayapatram jnana vairagya bhusanam
srimat venkata natharyam vande vedanta desikan
I salute Vedanta desikan who was the recipient of the mercy of Ramanuja and is the ornament of knowledge and dispassion
2 Guru Parampara Taniyan
laksmi natha samarambham natha yamuna madyamam
asmat acarya paryantam vande guru paramparam
Beginning from the Lord, through Nathamuni and Yamunacharya, down to our own acarya I salute the entire lineage of spiritual masters.
3 Ramanuja Taniyan
yo niyta-acyuta padambuja yugma rukma
vyamohas tad itarani trnaya mene
asmat guror bhagavatosya dayaika sindhoh
ramanujasya caranau saranam prapadye
I seek refuge in the feet of Lord Ramanuja, our teacher who is an ocean of compassion, who considered everything apart from the precious lotus feet of Krishna to be worthless
4. Namalvar Taniyan
mata pita yuvatayas tanaya vibhutih
sarvam yad eva niya mena madan vayanam
adyasya nah kula pater vakulabhiramam
srimat tad anghri yugalam pranamami murdhna
Sri Nammalvar, the first of our disciplic succession, is highly venerated by all Sri Vaisnavas, and for us he is our father as concerns our welfare, our mother in affection for us, a daughter in respect of joy that he gives us, a son in respect of the glory he gives us and in fact everything else. Bowing my head, I offer my respectful obeisances to his feet, which are as beautiful as blossoming bakula flowers.
5. Alvargal Taniyan
bhutam sarasca mahadahvaya bhatta natha
sribhakti sara kula-sekhara yogi vahan
bhaktanghri- renu parakala yatindra misran
srimat parankusa munim pranatosmi nityam
I offer perpectual obeisances to the 12 alvars;
1. Bhuta-yogi - Bhuta alvar
2. Saro-yogi - Poigai alvar
3. Bhranta-yogi - Pey alvar
4. Bhaktisara - Thirumalisai alvar
5. Madhurakavi - Madhurakavi alvar
6. Sadakopa - Namalvar
7. Kulashekara - Kulaskekara alvar
8. Vishnucitta - Peria-alvar
9. Goda - Andal
10. Bhaktanghrirenu - Tondaradippodi Alwar
11. Yogivaha - Thiruppan alvar
12. Parakala - Thirumangai alvar.
28th August 2008, 08:21 AM
.What is THANIYAN.?.
.Why Ranganatha chose Manavala Mamuni as His Guru.?
"Thaniyan" in Tamil is a Specific-Invocation in brief... in praise of One particular Great Acharya or Alwar or some such Seers..
Originally Posted by Jimano
..relevant to the Occasion.
Thiruvaaymozhi elaboration is named Bhagawad-Vishayam... meaning the intrinsic sense of Vedas in Tamil...
..rather THAMIZH-MARHAI... or Tamil-Veda.
The Acharya Manavala-Mamuni is an incarnation of Ramanuja...
..so as to further his earlier objectives initiated as Ramanuja...
...suiting to the changed days... in simple style through Tamil... popularising its greatness and divinity...
...at par with Sanskrit... since Tamil was much relegated to the back...
..being condemned as a Tribal Language unworthy to be named as Dialect or qualified to be valued as a Language.
Since Lord wanted to break such a wrong inference caused out of ignorance and domination by majority...
..He re-created Vedas in Tamil... through 12 Alwars... His divine Ornaments Incarnations.
So to complete the task and purpose of Alwars mission... one competent Acharya was direly needed to pupularise the Great Values and Deep sense accessible to commonman...
...irrespective of Caste and Community...
...to benefit as widest extent of the people as possible...
..such that the Human-emancipation can easily get deep rooted towards posterity too.
So Lord Ranganatha... one day ordered Manavala Mamuni.. by Asareeri voice...
..expressing His wish to hear Thiruvaaymozhi discourse elaborately daily... for One year...
..suspending all the Conventional Festivals of the Srirangam Temple.
Manavala mamuni duly honoured the Commands of God Ranganatha... and accordingly conducted the Bhagawad-Vishayam discourse in front of Him at the Temple...
..which was also overheard by thousands of devotees assembly around daily.
Immediately on the successful finalisation of the discourse... one boy of about 5 years age...
...ran out from the Ranganatha Sannidhi with folded hands and humbly but loudly recited the above Thaniyan sloka...
...treating the Ramanuja-incarnated Acharya Manavala Mamuni as the God Ranganatha's Acharya too...
...for the Student-disciple God Ranganatha
Noticing such a surprise development of great honour... Manavali Mamuni became dumbfounded and stood up with reciprocal folded hands... shedding tears... worshipped that Boy...
..who was none else than the God Ranganatha Himself... in the guise of Disciple of Ramanuja incarnated Manavala maamuni.
This event was silently witnessed with amaze by the thousands of Diisciple audience assembled around...
Lord Ranganatha was not only much impressed by the high standard of lecture delivery... unusual and novel in presentation... in those days...
...it was radically APPROVED by Him, as the authentic divine declaration of Vedic sense conveyed through Thamizh-Marhai Thiruvaaymozhi.
And Lord Ranganatha also ordered by Asareeri... that this divine Thanian be recited during SAATRU-MARHAIS...
.. before and after chanting Tamil Vedas... so called Divya-Prabhandham by Alwars in all the Temples... DAILY...
..as also at Homes during Thiruvaaraadhanas
This fact has been recorded in the Copper-plate documents of Ranganatha temple.
One interesting point.!
When Lord Ranganatha uttered this Thanian Sloka at Srirangam Temple...
...it was simultaneously heard in all the 106 Vaishanava Temples all over India...
..including Badri Temple...
...which continues to be under the custody of Sankaracharyas disciples even now.
Accordingly this Divine Sloka Thanian is recited during every Satrumarhai at all the Temples...
...wherever Ramanuja incarnated Acharya Manavala Mamuni is duly honoured...
..including Thirumalai and Kanchi Varadaraja Temples.!
29th August 2008, 07:32 AM
Why Ranganatha chose a guru - another perspective
Originally Posted by Sudhaama
Thondaradipodi Alwar in his Tirumalai claims Lord Rangantha as the combined manifestation of Lord Rama and Lord Krishna. Lord Rama had Viswamitra has His guru and Lord Krishna had Sandipani Muni as His guru. Lord Ranganatha in order not to be left out chose Manavala Mamuni as His guru in Kali yuga. The disciple is Alagiya Manavalan (Lord Ranganatha) and the guru is Alagiya Manavala Mamuni.
This Sri Sailesa dayapatram slokam is considered to be on par with the Tirumantra as both are from Sriman Narayana.
2nd September 2008, 05:34 AM
. GOD became the DISCIPLE of His Serviceman.!
Originally Posted by Jimano
Lord Rama had the Sage Vasishta as His Guru... while Krishna had the Sage Santheepini as His Guru...
...Lord Vishnu being in the Descended form as exemplary MAN on Earth.
But such a Sense and Concept during Vibhava Awatharas were totally different from the present context of Lord Ranganatha having HIS DEVOTEE Manavala Mamuni himself as His Guru. How.?
Lord Rama and Krishna are the Awatharas intended to show to the humanity... by DEMONSTRATION... AS MAN.
..Whereas during Archawathara as the Temple Deities during Kaliyuga... He has never declared as Man or any such lower status than God...
...but AS GOD ONLY in Temples.
During Vibhawatharas such as Rama and Krishna... the God was exhibitive coupled with substantiating events, Discussions and Debates as to how any member of Mankind has to lead the Ideal Earthly life as the Supreme Human-birth...
...while how he/she may have to confront with the challenging circumstances...
...trying to defeat his emulative Dharmic principles... so called Life Code of practice,
...duly complying with the stature as the Wisest creature endowed with the rare Soul-power too... unlike any other Earthly-creature.
So God enacted the dramas duly incorporating with several other matching characters to convey His preachings translated into practice.
In such a course of Human order of Life... He wanted to insist on the indispensability of a Guru... to duly guide him time to time... while facing challenges and embarassments by Realities.
So as Rama and Krishna openly declared "I am ONE WITH YOU.. I am also a Human-being like you...
...and in NO WAY DIFFERENT... NOR SUPERIOR to you... other than a Model-man.
..So what I have demonstrated by words and actions... you all the Mankind too can and should follow... without any exceptions or excuses....
...lest you will be prone to be sinners, supplementing your erstewhile problems and undue accumulation of Karmas... causing repeated Re-births."
Thus as Temple deities... He conveys a different message and approach for exemplary Life for His devotees...
... by OPENLY SHOWING Him as God ONLY... and NOT A MAN.!
Then why the need for Guru for God.?
When Ramanuja intervened in the Saiva-Vaishnava dispute at Thirumalai... he clearly and openly prayed to Lord Venkateswara...
..."Hae Venkatakrishna, I understand very well that you are the Krishna here... and Not Siva..
...even though not exhibiting your Divya-Ayudhas Sanku and Chakra.
And such a concept is not new to us... since there are already several Vishnu Temples where the Deity Vishnu is not exhibiting Sanku and Chakra...
..for example, Udupi, Poori, Dwaraka etc.
Contrarily here... at Thirumalai, since you are showing us a MIXED CULTURE of Siva plus Vishnu...
...we want to clearly IDENTIFY you and recite prayers as well as worship accordingly, with well-defined demarcation...
So please let us know... whether you want us to pray as Sankara-Narayarana or Viswaroopa-Krishna as you showed yourselves to Arjuna as the Unified form of all Vedic Gods within one Vishnu the Supreme Lord.
If You are Sankara Narayana... then we will hand over this Temple to Saivites...
...similar to all the other Sankara-Narayana temples in the Saivites custody and Pooja conducts....
..in which case your PRE-DOMINANT Divya-ayudhas have to be the Lord Sivas... i.e Deer and Mazhu....
Alternatively if you want to show yourselves as PREDOMINANT VISHNU in the Viswaroopa Krishna form here... then please accept the Sanku and Chakra...
...and show to your devotees as the constant and eternal proof of authenticity... giving the least room for even a trace of doubt nor complication ever in future.
So we all your devotees of both the sects as Saivites and Vaishnavites are placing before you... both these pairs of Options... leaving to your discretion.
Please express in action by showing openly to all the devotees... not only the present... but also the posterity....
..since we do not want to have such disputes from any circles in future too."
Thus Ramanujacharya openly and impartially spoke out... in the presence of the Saivites as well as the Thondai-mandala Raja, under whose Kingdom Thirumalai was a part. in those days....
...and left out the Sannidhi. The Door was locked and sealed. There were Three sets of Gatemen judiciously from Vaishnavites, Saivites and the Kings Guards... safeguarding the Sannidhi- Gate during the following night.
While the Sannidhi door was opened in the subsequent morning... in the presence of the King along with the Gurus from both the Saivites and Vaishnavites...
..they all were UNDISPUTABLY convinced that it is Lord Venkata-Krishna... since he had chosen Sanka and Chakra...
...leaving off the Siva's Divya-ayudhas before Him lying UNTOUCHED.
Further a New development.!... To their surprise... they all found Venkateswara's face adorned with an unusual form of Thirumanh-Kappu... Adiyars' Paada-Chinna Namam...
...so called Tamil Letter "PA" shaped.!
Then Ramanujacharya asked Venkateswara to speak out and clarify openly to all... as to what does it indicate.
Then by Asareeri voice... Venkateswara declared openly "Oh Ramanuja, my Acharya I am your Student you are my Guru and Acharya...
..Guru because you have taught and enlightened me as to what is the best form undisputable expostion during Kaliyuga... by clearly wearing the Diya-Ayudhas.
Besides, for one more reason too, I honour you as my Guru..
...because what I could not achieve by Ten Awatharas... You could achieve easily just within 40 years...especially during the sinful Kaliyuga..
You are my Acharya because you have peformed Samasrayanam to me by giving me Sanka and Chakra...
...and further to confirm my principle of Krishnawathara... I am the Serviceman of my Devotees.. So I wear on my forehead, my Devotees' Foot-prints."
Accordingly from that date onwards in the Kattiyam for Ramanujacharya during processions...
....it is announced as "Thirumalai-Appanukku Sanku-Aazhi alhiththa Acharya-perumaan Emberumaanaar Jaya Vijayee bhava."
While Ramanuja the Seshawathara fulfilled his purpose of incarnation upto the satisfaction of his Master, Narayana...
...Adisesha's second Awathara, Manavala-Mamuni further fortified and firm-rooted the Devotion cult amongst the people widely by simplifying through Tamil...
..duly highlighting the greatness of Thamizh-Marhai Thiruvaaymozhi...
So Ranganatha once again honoured the second Seshawathara, Manavalai mamuni... by openly declaring that He regards Manavala-mamuni as His present Acharya-Guru.
...by praying him as... Yatheendra-pravanam Vandhae Ramya Jaamathrum Munim.