Quest of spirituality and pOli sAmiyArkaL

[wrap07]

>>I think one has to seek a guru when not in a crisis<<

Again, I don't necessarily mean a physical person. As posted by some above, the guru can actually be an "it or they", not necessarily he or she.

If some one is capable of understanding himself and solving his own problems and able to lead a perfect life, he himself is a Guru for him and he has no need for searching elsewhere.

Yes, even a book which ignites thoughts may be a Guru for somebody and it is acutally the case for some well known philsophers.

[app_engine]

>>Those persons would never fall for frauds or wrong elements. They can easily identify the same.<<

While this may be true for a number of people, the contrary has also been proved to be true. Even when a person is not in crisis but apparently quite stable, need not be an expert in this area (just plain innocence / ignorance), which someone can take advantage. Another thing, it's very difficult to predict when one can lose that precious thing called "balance"

[wrap07]

>>Those persons would never fall for frauds or wrong elements. They can easily identify the same.<<

While this may be true for a number of people, the contrary has also been proved to be true.)

app, When someone is on the right path and righeous and in the process of enlightment, he cannot fall for these things unless and untill he is back to normal souls like anyone of us who are prone to normal feelings like ignorance etc.

You are right about people losing balance at anytime and that has destroyed many a good thing in their lives.

Your anxiety about people being taken advantage of is quite right. But, the rot is in every field.

[anbu_kathir]

We could go on and on talking about this and many other issues. I think that the lack of balance/faith in people which seems to be behind this problem probably has a far deeper cause than imagined by me before. Whatever the problem is, the below is an universal solution to find the 'right' path for anyone, suggested by one of my physics teachers to me directly.

1. Eating Well. Balanced food in quality and quantity. Enough information about it is available nowadays.

2. Sleeping well. Again balanced, in quality and quantity. 5-6 hours of deep sleep routinely is a must for most of us.

3. Doing physical/mental exercises regularly.

4. Some form of regular selfless service.

5. Meditating on the thought ' I should be influenced by whatever is best for me ' .

These are nothing new, and every Guru in one way or the other has said these. The point is that after 5-6 years of trying to understand the process/techniques of spiritual seeking now, I am still quite convinced that these techniques are necessary and sufficient for removing all sorts of confusion in life and becoming content. In fact nothing more is needed for an average person (I am assuming one has sufficient finance to do all the above. Clearly for what has been suggested, extravagant amounts are not required).

In the process of doing all these, all negative aspects in oneself are rooted out, and Life becomes a moment-to-moment experience of Bliss and Peace. The process itself might take lifetimes to deliver enlightenment (depending upon the person), but its a sure shot method and one can feel the difference within an year of regular practice. Moreover, no religion, no particular God is required for this. One is infact led to one's Highest bliss by this process and that may be anything from atheism to monk-hood.

Unfortunately though, most people (spiritual seekers too) miss these basic parts, ultimately these add to the chain reaction and cause more confusion than clarity.

One clear and obvious way to steer away from Poli Saamiyaars is to be aware of whether he/she is making one dependent on him/her or is making one independent and non-attached irrespective of any benefit they may provide to him/her/their organisation. No pOli saamiyaar will ever suggest the above points to anyone(even if He/she knows) because they obviously signify independent practice. However, without a balance of mind this awareness is ought to be not easily available.

Love and Light.

[app_engine]

Eating well, sleeping well, exercises, self-less service & meditating to be influenced by the best - all these are definitely related to one's good physical / mental health and will surely contribute to a measure of inner peace (though not total).

However, I fail to see how these will relate to "spirituality". Specifically, when someone wants to know answers to questions like "what is the purpose of life", for e.g., IMO, the answer has to come from a source other than oneself. In other words, all of our questions won't get answered by ourselves howmuchever balanced we are and capabale of thinking deeply. We depend upon other sources to tell us. (Obviously those sources should be superior to us in such knowledge and not pOli's).

[anbu_kathir]

Eating well, sleeping well, exercises, self-less service & meditating to be influenced by the best - all these are definitely related to one's good physical / mental health and will surely contribute to a measure of inner peace (though not total).

However, I fail to see how these will relate to "spirituality". Specifically, when someone wants to know answers to questions like "what is the purpose of life", for e.g., IMO, the answer has to come from a source other than oneself. In other words, all of our questions won't get answered by ourselves howmuchever balanced we are and capabale of thinking deeply. We depend upon other sources to tell us. (Obviously those sources should be superior to us in such knowledge and not pOli's).

Not really. Spirituality => Balance. Balance of mind-body, and soul. (Although belief in the soul is not a requisite, with practise one will become aware of it and cannot avoid it.) Practising what I had posted will deliver this balance. ( I can say with this with surety because it has been tried and tested by many I know personally and myself to an extent. Its just the Bhagavad Gita's Karma Yoga principles in different words..probably practised before that too )

But why does one need it anyway ? Spiritual Masters have always said that all answers to all spiritual questions lie within, and the mind is merely a veil which covers this inherent Knowledge. Purification of the mind ( and the body too, because the body-mind are irrevocably linked together ) removes the dirt on this veil and makes the inherent Truth within oneSelf very clear.

No outside sources are necessary, although practising these will definitely draw whatever help is required from all possible sources. But then spiritual masters have also always said that there is really no 'outside'. The outer world is merely a reflection of the inner world. And the more clear one is about oneself, the more clarity there is about the world out there.

For the observers, it 'seems' spiritual clarity or confusion too, seems to be imposed from the outside. But for the spiritual aspirant, it becomes clear within some time of saadhana that its all a reflection of the inner process. Hence the difference between 'inner' and 'outer' for the spiritual aspirant slowly blurs, and when he/she is a realised master, there is no difference at all.

Love and Light.

[Badri]

1. Do we need a spiritual guru?
2. If so, what are the qualities that one should look for in the guru as an individual (not really our own emotions like "I get real peace in his/her presence" etc)?
3. Once a guru is identified, how far should the dependency go (and also the relationship)?

1. Yes. A guru is an absolute must. If we can find the truth ourselves, then why are we not already realised? Therefore it becomes clear that we need something or someone to reveal the "self-evident" truth. Note I say self evident because the Truth is always before us. And we only need the Guru to come and say "Behold, this thing that you have been seeing every second - this is the Truth. All this time you saw it without knowing that it was what you were seeking all along. Now you can know it to be the destination"

The Guru need not be a human being necessarily. All Universe can be the Guru like it was to Dattatreya.

2. Peace is not an emotion. You can kid yourself with everything else but not Peace. You can tell you yourself you are happy and even believe that to a certain extent. Happiness, sorrow etc are subjective emotions. But not peace. You can know when get peace. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa used to tell an anecdote - a child told its mother before going to bed, "Maa wake me up when I have to use the bathroom". The mother said, "I dont have to, you will know it yourself." Similarly one can know when one is peaceful. It is not something that you can fool yourself about.

But that said, there is one other qualification by which you can know a Guru. Adi Sankara defines the Guru as being "ahethuka daya sindhu" - the ocean of compassion that doesnt seek a reason to be compassionate. If your "Guru" accepts to be your guru and guides you solely out of the immense compassion he feels for you, then know that person to be the Guru. Again compassion is something that one can know when one sees it. Yes, people can fake it for a while but not for too long. Does the Guru expect anything in return for their Compassion? Then it is not ahethuka (without a cause). Compassion is their nature. The river is full of water because that is its nature; not because of what it will gain by being full of water. Ice is cold because that is its nature; not because of what will come of being cold. Thus, the true Guru is full of compassion not as a natural consequence of who they are.

3. There are 2 questions in this. One on the dependency and the other on the realationship. Let me first answer the second. The relationship between the Guru and the Sishya is supposed to be holy. It is supposed to mirror the true love between a mother and child, combining with it the single pointedness of the lover for the beloved. In that sense the relationship is as pure as what a child feels for the mother and as intense as what the lover feels for the beloved. Look at the careful mix of the two - there is lust in the latter, purity in the former. But there is absolute one-pointedness in the latter and not so much in the former. A child can love its mother but once it finds a beloved the mother sort of gets tossed out of the window. Therefore the relationship between the Guru & Sishya must combine both these aspects - Pure love and One Pointedness.

Now for the first question on Dependency. What is the nature of this dependency? No Guru can grant Jnana on a platter. The Guru can only show the path, give instructions. It is upto the disciple to tread that path and reach the goal. The Guru can give the map, but cannot undertake the journey for the disciple. That is left to the disciple alone. Therefore the sishya must depend absolutely on the Guru for instructions i.e. have firm faith in the Guru's words and instructions. Then the sishya must have absolute dependency on their own efforts or Sadhana. Combined, they will yield the ultimate result of Moksha or liberation.

Once more I will reiterate. I have written all this in the assumption that you are seeking a guru to achieve the Ultimate Goal of Eternal Peace and Liberation. If you wanted griha santhi, marry the girl of your choice, get a promotion etc. then you are knocking the wrong doors!!

[app_engine]

Good points anbu_kathir & Badri. Though there may be some disagreements in details, it's pretty clear that to seek a "spiritual guru" for mundane things is probably the main reason for pOli's to sprout and if at least one person shuns seeking for such things, the purpose of this thread is more than served

[anbu_kathir]

The relationship between the Guru and the Sishya is supposed to be holy. It is supposed to mirror the true love between a mother and child, combining with it the single pointedness of the lover for the beloved. In that sense the relationship is as pure as what a child feels for the mother and as intense as what the lover feels for the beloved. Look at the careful mix of the two - there is lust in the latter, purity in the former. But there is absolute one-pointedness in the latter and not so much in the former. A child can love its mother but once it finds a beloved the mother sort of gets tossed out of the window. Therefore the relationship between the Guru & Sishya must combine both these aspects - Pure love and One Pointedness.

Among others, Badri sir, for this I humbly salute you and all Guru-shisyas who have lived before, who live now, and who will live ever after.

May such immeasurably beautiful relationships blossom across the planet in aplenty and may all have the delight of participating in them.

Love and Light.

[wrap07]

Very nicely articulated and put forth by Shri Badri.