TAMILAR' GOD RAMA

[kannannn]

But she doesn't even refer to any of these debates, because she's merely providing a very brief background to the poems whose grammar she intends to describe, based on the secondary literature, and not trying to advance any theories of her own. At least, that's how it seems to me.

Yup, I agree . As I said, I only remember her dating the works (perhaps 'argue' was a wrong word). I was mainly interested in the literary basis of dating the works to the BC period (script, language..), because, wasn't there a mix of Prakrit in the inscriptions found at that time?

[P_R]

That used to be one of the most debated questions in Tamil literature. Was the book Tolkappiyam named for a man called Tolkappiyan (as Nachinarkkiniyar says), or was the man called that because of the book?

Really !!!
I thought it was as straight as செம்புலப்பெயல்நீரார்

I have read two guesses the etymology of kappiyam.
1) A morphing of the Sanskrit word kaavya
2) A less plausible one: காப்பு + இயம் (மரபைக் காத்து இயம்புவது)

If the former is the case, then there should have been no doubt that his name was a placeholder.

However, that it led to some debate at all leads me to treat seriously the second theory about the etymology of kaappiyam.

Here's the exact quote:

"The cankam literature, also called the cankam classics or classical Tamil poems, actually refer to two large compilations of numerous individual poems, the ettutokai ('the eight anthologies') and the pattupattu ('the ten songs'). These poems, which originated from an oral bardic tradition, are believed to have been written down on palm-leaf manuscripts between the second century BC and the fourth to fifth century A.D. Attributed to 473 poets, the total number of these poems is 2,318, the shortest of which is 3 lines long (e.g. ainkurunuru 121) and the longest,782 (maturaikkanci)."

Are these off the net somewhere or are you typing from your book ? I ask becaus since your last post I have been trying to read about the names you mentioned - all were new to me . Could get nothing written by them in the net. I used to live near an awesome academic library last year

[pizzalot]

I feel like Chow Chow among the intellectual German Shepherds .. can someone explain me what is going on here with the dates ? Will someone finally relate the discussion to the topic ?

[podalangai]

can someone explain me what is going on here with the dates ? Will someone finally relate the discussion to the topic ?

The issue of dates is something of a digression - the relevance is that if Sangam literature is much older than Tamil bhakti literature, then the references to Rama in the Sangam works are somewhat more significant than if Sangam literature is closer in date to Tamil bhakti literature. Kannann / PrabhuRam - perhaps it's best to hive the discussion off into another thread? Perhaps PR could do the needful as a moderator?

The last post directly relevant to the thread was this one:

From memory, there are four references to the story of Rama in the Ettuthokai, two to Rama himself, and two to other incidents associated with the Ramayana. Verse 378 from Purananuru mentions a group of monkeys who found the ornaments scattered by Sita, and wore them incorrectly (bangles on the ears, necklace around the waist). Note that this incident is not described in any known version of the Ramayana.

The second reference is Verse 70 of Akananuru, which speaks of the sound heard by Rama at Kodi.

The third reference is in Kalitthokai, verse 38, which describes how the "arakkar koman" attempted to uproot the Himalayan mountain on which Siva and Uma were resting. This seems very much like a reference to the famous incident involving Ravana, although neither Ravana nor Rama are named.

The fourth reference is in Paripadal 19, which describes a group of pilgrims to the Murugan temple at Thirupparankunram who see a painting depicting Ahalya (Akaligai) and Indra being cursed by Gautama, with Ahalya becoming a stone. Rama isn't directly mentioned, but the story of Ahalya is associated with the Ramayana. Interestingly enough, once again this reference does not follow Valmiki - Valmiki refers to Ahalya becoming invisible. The legend that she became a stone is first found in the Kambaramayanam, and only subsequently in later northern texts, such as the Adhyatma Ramayana.

I find it interesting that two of the four references are to incidents not found in Valmiki, and that one of those is later found in Kamban. Could this perhaps suggest that there was already a "Tamil" tradition as to Rama in the later period of the Sangam age, which differed from the Sanskrit tradition?

[pizzalot]

Thanks Podangai. We are back to track again. PR also gave references. I feel that there was a Rama tradition in South also before Kamban. Even there could have been a similar theme, but the Rama mentioned could not have been the one who is said to have ruled Ayodhya per Valmiki. In any of Pre-Kamban literature , do we have the mention of Rama of Ayodhiya fame ?

[P_R]

Thanks Podangai. We are back to track again. PR also gave references. I feel that there was a Rama tradition in South also before Kamban. Even there could have been a similar theme, but the Rama mentioned could not have been the one who is said to have ruled Ayodhya per Valmiki. In any of Pre-Kamban literature , do we have the mention of Rama of Ayodhiya fame ?

Hey Pizzalot. In the last page is a post by me dated May 3 where I had a quoted from Silappadhikaaram - which predates Kamban. There I had pointed out lines that show the Rama referred to was the one of Ayodhya fame and also that he was considered a God.

[pizzalot]

Thanks Podangai. We are back to track again. PR also gave references. I feel that there was a Rama tradition in South also before Kamban. Even there could have been a similar theme, but the Rama mentioned could not have been the one who is said to have ruled Ayodhya per Valmiki. In any of Pre-Kamban literature , do we have the mention of Rama of Ayodhiya fame ?

Hey Pizzalot. In the last page is a post by me dated May 3 where I had a quoted from Silappadhikaaram - which predates Kamban. There I had pointed out lines that show the Rama referred to was the one of Ayodhya fame and also that he was considered a God.

Agreed. Thanks.

[podalangai]

Hey Pizzalot. In the last page is a post by me dated May 3 where I had a quoted from Silappadhikaaram - which predates Kamban. There I had pointed out lines that show the Rama referred to was the one of Ayodhya fame and also that he was considered a God.

True, PR. But it still seems to me that early Tamil works paint a rather different picture when compared with the Sanskrit works. I'll pull out my favourite example, from the "aychchiyar kuravai" in the Madurai kandam of the Silappadhikaram:

மூவுலகும் ஈரடியான் முறைநிரம்பா வகைமுடியத்
தாவியசே வடிசேப்பத் தம்பியொடுங் கான்போந்து...

MS made these verses famous, but when you stop to think about it, the theology behind those two simple lines makes the mind boggle in terms of its subtlety and its implications - a causal link between Vishnu's actions against Mahabali and his exile as Rama? As far as I am aware, the Sanskrit texts simply don't have anything like that.

And we see the same trend in the Kamba Ramayana, for example in the very different colour it gives to episodes such as Sita's fire-ordeal, which was discussed in this forum several months ago.

[Badri]

Hmm, this one example from the Silapadhikaram itself seems to set the seal on the topic!

It is rather sad that people end up trying to separate the two cultures - Tamizh and Sanksrit, and think of one imposing on the other instead of viewing each as enriching the other.

But then, people find a strange perverse delight in dwelling on the negative! They rarely embrace the positive aspect of life!

[podalangai]

Hmm, this one example from the Silapadhikaram itself seems to set the seal on the topic!

It is rather sad that people end up trying to separate the two cultures - Tamizh and Sanksrit, and think of one imposing on the other instead of viewing each as enriching the other.

Actually, what really sets the seal on the topic is when you consider that the "Tamilised" traditions on Rama were then in turn re-exported from the South to the North by Ramananda - and ended up becoming the orthodox viewpoint even in the North. This is all part of the beauty of the amazing melting pot that is Indian culture.