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Thread: THIRUKKURALH

  1. #41
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    THIRUVALLUVAR KOORUM-THEN PULATHAR YAR?

    I HAVE put across the Kural Thenpulathar Theivam.... and gave its meaning as followed for 2000 years now and FSG SAID'
    Then pulaththar' specifies the ancestors who died in 'KadalKol' happened in the south of Kumari.

    That is why tamil pray standing in the direction of south.

    When tamils wanted to die they sit in north direction.

    Yaman was introduced in Vaishnava puranas and that was not specified by valluvar. Infact yaman direction is north.

    As all religion claims Thirukkural is belonging to them I think Vaishnavas also believe in that.
    We are discussing what Thiruvalluvar said and not 20th century Rationalist Tamils myths. Now morethan 80% of Commentaries used in last 1000 years all refer the meaning of THENPULATHAR- AS the Direction of Koorram or Yemen, that is Our Dead Ancestors, i.e,Pithrukal and showed the customs followed by Many Tamil community, not necessarrily of Brahmins alone. Now FSG ignores all Old Commenteries and Quotes Meaningless Suppositions of 20th Cen, Rationalist and their myths. So using Commentators is of no use. Let us analyse Sangam Literature to Silapathirkaram, and for our reference.

    Purananuru song 91 says-
    " Then pula valnar Karunkadanirukkum
    Pon pol Pudalvarai Perathavarai"
    This song tells that while Going to war, Youngman who have not got their Male Children to perform Thenpula valnar kadan are exempted from Participating in WAR. A Son performs his Thenpula duty for his father and 2 further past Generations as per Tradition. So Young men without Son to carryout this duty if he dies are exempted.
    After death for Marumai, these Criais are to be done and some Offerings as Gifts are given to this date and Puram 232 and 234 and Silapathikaram 15 talks of this.

    So to say some thing which Tiruvalluvar said, by twisting it that too Rational myths is twisting Tiruvalluvar, and this is done with clear Tendentious Motives, and these type of work got Frauds to write Tiruvalluvar-Christhuvara? etc.,

    Let us see only What Valluvar Said and not their views.

    MosesMohammedSolomon

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  3. #42
    Senior Member Senior Hubber Idiappam's Avatar
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    Realy Solomon, I have been trying to post a reply to you for 3 days but I can't. I just don't understand what you are saying.

    I know you are discussing the Kural 'Thempulathaar...'. 'Then' means 'south'. 'Thenpulathaar' means 'dead ancestors'. Tamils bury their dead at the southern part of the village (or towns). Therefore 'thenpulathar'.

    The direction of 'Yaman' - you mean 'Lord Yama'??? I won't say that is south. But do you have any information on that direction from any puranas etc you have read.

    Mr Gandhi, has pointed out that the 'Yama' concept came into place during the Puranic Period of Vaishnavam. Most of the puranas being written in the South - in Kerala, many Great Vaishnavites (of the Northern School - vada Kalai) were born there!

    But from where Valluvar was sitting, and viewing the place of Yama in Kerala, I would say that the Direction of Yama should be approximately 'West ten degrees North'.

    I don't know why, Solomon, you chose to zoom in on this Kural, perhaps you feel that this 'Thenpulathar' is not a Tamil Idea, but Vedic. Someone told you so?? Certainly this Kural did not come from the Vedas. But this Kural was copied 'word-for-word' in one Sanskritic Work that was written wome 400 years after kural.

    Read the ManuSmriti. There are about 50 Thirukurals included there. Some Archaryas are of the opinion that these are later inclusion the the Smriti.

  4. #43
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    Dear Solomon,

    Rationalists don't believe such things. And Thenpulaththar won't be included in their dictionary.

    My point is, Kootram,Kottram,Kootruvan and Pithir, Pithar have common meaning.

    But 'Thenpulaththar' is somewhat different in meaning.

    When 'Kootruvan' and 'Pithir' relates one's own ancestor that is His grandfather 'Thenpulaththar' signifies common ancestral worship that prevailed in tamil culture during sankam period.

    'Nadukal' worship was there from time immemorial for every person's family ancestral worship.

    That is why I told that Thenpulaththar siginifies the ancestors who Plunged into 'Kadalkol'.

    In silappathikaram

    "Vadivel Erintha vaan pakai porathu
    Paguruli Aatrudan panmalai adukkathu
    kumari kodum kodum kadal kolla-

    first line signifies the meaning that When Pandyan attacked on south the sea attacked on battle fielders and the one who not completed the worship to thank the battle fielders drowned in sea won't be allowed to take part in another fight.

    Hence 'Thenpulaththar' worship didnot end with one's family but extend society as a whole of sankam period.

    f.s.gandhi
    "Kal thonri man thontra kalathay mun thonri mootha kudi"- a second century literature- means when before stone became sand in earth the tamil tribes were formulated

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idiappam
    I would say that the Direction of Yama should be approximately 'West ten degrees North'.
    I could not curb my laugh Hahahahahaha

    Excellent Idiappam.
    "Kal thonri man thontra kalathay mun thonri mootha kudi"- a second century literature- means when before stone became sand in earth the tamil tribes were formulated

  6. #45
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    Dear Friends,

    I have earlier talked about contradictory kurals of valluvar that "Muyarchi Thiruvinai yakkum" and "Uoozhir peruvali Yaavula".

    One is encouraging -the another one is discouraging at first instance.

    But valluvar's motive is not to discourage us. His perspective is Encourage in both the situations.

    He revealed to the men how to handle / manage two type of situations. These two situations happen in everyone's life.

    When we try hard we will get the fruit. Hence try untill our death is the message. Certainly a result having fruitfulness will come.-is one situation.

    Suppose we are not getting anything even after more trying-What we have to do ?- is another situation.

    Valluvar says,"Do not get fear. Do not get discourage. After all destiny is strong. Do not stop trying".

    In both the situations valluvar teaches us to follow level headed mind positively to solve the situation and live without having dejected feelings in the world.

    Let us follow valluvar's positive approach.

    f.s.gandhi
    "Kal thonri man thontra kalathay mun thonri mootha kudi"- a second century literature- means when before stone became sand in earth the tamil tribes were formulated

  7. #46
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    TIRUVALLUVAR and Kural

    Manatu Ulathu Pola Katti Oruvaruku
    Inathu ulathu AakumArivu. -454
    Valluvar, clearly tells a truth, Eventough One' mind Operates on his own Knowledge, but The Mind Deceives him and thinks as per the Associations (or Books he reads) of friends He has.

    The Explanations given by FSG, This fable of 4th Cen, not explained till date and we have literature from 3rdBce to 20th Century And let him give Ilakkiya Proofs and also explain what all came in 4th Century.

    ThenPulathar- being refered as Pithrukal is referred for more than 2000 years, and this Kural is in First Aadikaram after Kadavul Valzthu, called Ilvalkai- and Tiruvalluvar gives the duties of a family man to his Family, and NOT GENERAL mourning but why then this new meaningless New interpretations, leaving out all Historical values. Many Scholars wrote like this in 20th Century, pulling
    Tiruvalluvar to be like a 20th Cen, Tamil School Teacher.
    Idiayppam- Your Comedian role provoked me to think on Valluvar-He would certainly have written thinking on the reader or hearer, and that they could be in America or Arabia- and he should confirm the Indic- Tradition, I quoted Puram, A young man without Son's ThenPulathar Kadan can't be done. So it always means Pithrukal, when THen Means South in literal sense- The Indic Tradition is the direction of Kooram and Valluvar who had no hesitation on using Aathi- used ThenPulathar. Appam- You said Vedas as 600 BCE, now you go to 400CE fable and Tiruvalluvar's above Kural is proved and he is a Saint.

    One such, is PanmozhiPulavar Appadurai- He took the Word- Pirappu- EluPirappu and Twisted it to mean as Generations and wrote new Meanings, which means Appadurai, Wrote new Kural and not Commentary for Tirukural.

    And all his approach by 20th Century Scholars, was very useful to the Church, which funded Dravidian Religion Founder as FSG called Dr.M.Deivanayagam to write, I Quote-“ Thomaiyar Moolam Perra Narseithiyam Arathai, than Arasiyal Paniyil Irunthu Petrra Arasiyal Arivam Poruludan, Than Ilvazhvin Adithalathil Vilangkiya Inbathodu Sernthu Tamil Soolazil Muppalaka Mozhintullar.- Page 173,
    Tiruvalluvar Christhuvara, and
    Appadurai’s interpretation on Pirappu helped this work mainly, as Christianity does not believe in Births and Rebirths.

    Deivanayagam. Went on to continue and got P.Hd, saying Tirukural and SaivaSithantham are derived from Bible, later his Daughter- to Tamil Bakthi movement was inspired by Bible and another Disciple saying Tamil Vaishnavism derived from Bible, and lately Another Disciple getting M.Phil saying Muruga Worship is inspired by Jesus worship.

    We need to look at Tiruvalluvar as what he said and not what U want to interpret for your Tendential purposes. I give here various views of Leading Tamil Authorities on these Deivanayagam’s work and also Interpretting Tirukural wrongly.

    "Dr. Deivanayakam Gets His Due 1
    R.S. Narayanaswami
    A controversial book written by a Christian drew strong criticism and attack from eminent Hindu scholars at a function in Madras on October 24, 1991.

    The book titled Viviliyam, Tirukkural, Shaiva Siddhantam Oppu Ayvu, written by one Deivanayakam, 2 was published in 1985-86. It attempted to compare Bible, Tirukkural and Shaiva philosophy and concluded that Tiruvalluvar was a disciple of St. Thomas and that his sayings were only sayings from Bible. The writer had attempted to distort and misinterpret the Shaiva Siddhanta to suit his conclusions that all these works emanated from the preachings of St. Thomas who is said to have visited India in the first century A.D.

    It was given to the Dharmapuram Math to issue a refutation. In spite of refutations from scholars through personal letters, Deivanayakam was unrelenting. Hence the Dharmapuram Shaiva Math had a book of refutation prepared by its very able Tamil and Shaiva scholar, Arunai Vadivel Mudaliar, and released it at a function.

    The function organised by the Shaiva Siddhanta Sabha, was not very well publicised yet it had a gathering of over three hundred Tamil and Shaiva scholars. 3 The hall was packed to capacity. Justice N. Krishnaswami Reddiar, retired high court judge, presided.

    Tamil and Shaiva scholar M.P. Somasundaram, who made the opening speech, deplored that in independent India freedom and rights were being misused to such an extent that books denigrating the ancient religion of the land were allowed to be written. He said the Christian book was a bundle of distortions, misconceptions and misinterpretations of Tirukkural verses and Shaivite philosophical works to suit the conclusions of the author-namely that Christianity had influenced Tiruvalluvar and the Nayanmars. The book was mischievous in content and aim, he asserted. He commended Arunai Vadivel Mudaliar and the Dharmapuram Math for bringing out a refutation.

    Justice Krishnaswami Reddiar strongly criticised the modern tendency of publishing trash in the name of research. He said research must have an aim, a purpose, to get at the truth. Research was not meant to find evidence to denigrate an ancient faith. Research should not start with preconclusions or prejudices. Here the author's motive was to show the superiority of Christianity. Religion was based not only on facts but also on faith and beliefs. The book had hurt Hindu beliefs.

    Justice Krishnaswami Reddiar quoted from the works of Sita Ram Goel and Ishwar Sharan and asserted that the visit of St. Thomas to India was a myth. He wondered how could such a book be published by [the International Institute of Tamil Studies, Adyar, Madras,] set up by the Government. It was a crime that such a book had been written and published and awarded a doctorate degree [by the University of Madras,] he said.

    If such books were not refuted our progeny would find fault with us; and such books would pass as source material for future researchers. If there was no refutation, then such books would be accepted as telling the truth and would be used for further religious propaganda. He praised the Dharmapuram Math for taking pains to release the book of refutation.

    Sarojini Varadappan released the book of refutation. Swaminatha Thambiran of Dharmapuram Math said the Math Head had, by personal correspondence with Deivanayakam, tried to put the facts straight. But he was unrelenting. Then a conference of scholars was held at Dharmapuram to which Deivanayakam was invited. Though he was present, he stood his ground. Then only, the Head of the Math decided to prepare this book of refutation and release it.

    Dr. R. Nagaswami, eminent archaeologist, who had done some excavations at Santhome Church along with a Jesuit, quoted profusely from the writings of Jesuits and exploded the myth of the visit of St. Thomas to India. It was a Portuguese ruse to spread Christianity in India. He said Deivanayakam had taken the visit of St. Thomas to India as an established fact and, based on that, built his theory and conclusions. The fact was St. Thomas had not visited India at all. According to the evidence available, and books on St. Thomas, he had visited only Parthia, Dr. Nagaswami said. He said it was a sad reflection on the Institute of Tamil Studies which had published this book. It was shameful that Madras University had awarded a doctorate for this book without going into its merits.

    Vidwan Ambai Sankaranar said that the award of doctorate to the author of the book must be withdrawn as the author had not adduced any evidence as to how Tiruvalluvar was a disciple of St. Thomas. Vidwan Sundara Murthi pointed out how the Tirukkural verses were misinterpreted by Deivanayakam.

    T.N. Ramachandran said chronology had not at all been taken into consideration by Deivanayakam while comparing the works. Had he been a student of St. Thomas, Tiruvalluvar would have mentioned it, he said.

    Vanniyar Adigal said such books were being published taking advantage of the tolerance of Hindus and the liberty and rights given in the Constitution. He said a book by a Muslim showing the superiority of Koran over Tirukkural had also been published some years back. It was time for the Hindus to take cognizance of attacks on their doctrines, beliefs and sacred books.

    Eighty-five-year-old Arunai Vadivel Mudaliar, the author of the book of refutation, 4 who was honoured with a silk cloth and cash presentation, said that an attack on his faith was like an attack on his mother and that compelled him to refute the book of Deivanayakam.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1 Originally published under the title "Tamil scholars assail Christian bid to misrepresent Tiruvalluvar as St. Thomas" in the Organiser, November 7, 1991, New Delhi.

    2 Dr. M. Deivanayakam and Dr. R. Arulappa have worked together on the christianization of Tiruvalluvar and the Tirukkural. In 1975 they co-authored the book Perinba Villakku in which Tiruvalluvar is represented as being Christian.

    3 That this important conference of Hindu scholars was not reported in the Madras editions of The Hindu and Indian Express is very revealing of the editorial policies of these newspapers.

    4 Unfortunately Mudaliar's book has not been named in this article."

    Thanks to www.hamsa.org
    Let us view Tirukural of what Valluvar said, and read all books with Generalised
    outook, Not Highly biased Tendentious Scholars and keep ourselves Superstitious.
    MosesMohammedSolomon.

  8. #47
    Senior Member Senior Hubber Idiappam's Avatar
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    Solomon said:
    Idiayppam- Your Comedian role provoked me to think
    Ok, I understand! That you have just started to think, but your thinking is still not up to Human standard - quite inconsistent. Nevermind, keep it up - it will improve. Solomon. Read more of my posts, you brain needs some more provocation to think logically.

    Get well soon! Regards,
    Idiappam

  9. #48
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    Dear Solomon,

    You sing the old song repeatedly.

    Kindly visit 'Tami is elder to Sanskrit' thread for the my explanations. Here you continue Thurukkural messages and not historical messages.

    f.s.gandhi
    "Kal thonri man thontra kalathay mun thonri mootha kudi"- a second century literature- means when before stone became sand in earth the tamil tribes were formulated

  10. #49
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    EluPirappu and ThenPulathar

    Tiruvalluvar called Man's Birth again and Again AS PiraviPerungadal and Man' average Life was 47 years during Independence and now at around 70 years and If FALSELY As FSG said as 7 Pirappu- then Kadal becomes meaninless, and Valluvar says in Kural 339:
    Uranguvathu Polum Saakkadu Uranghi
    Vizhipathu poum Piraappu-
    Friends how many times we sleep in our Life time certainly not 7 times. FSG Please donot say something do refute me and quoting Bible etc., here is meaningless.

    Tirukural in its enitire 1,300 Kurals have not used the word Tamil at all, it is not written for Tamilar alone for entire Mankind. ThenPulathar means Your Family's Dead Munnor or Pithrukal, THis Kural has been put after 4 first Athikarams onGod worship and ILvalkai- is the name of the Athikaram-FamilyMan's Life. I have given earlier proofs from Sangam Literature, which gives the word ThenPulathar clearly,FSG argued that Tamils dead Seeing VADAKIRUTHAL- Sorry FSG- for somebody who has gone to Thuravu- who does want to Go to Eman's Direction turns to Vadakku- Direction of Himalayas or Kailash and Prey to Reach God' feet and get away fromPiravi pERUNGADAL.

    Tirukural was called Souther Vedas-Uthira Vedam and Sangam Pulavar Mangudi Maruthanar says:
    " Otharku Elithai UnarthaRKU Aritahi
    VETHA Porulai Mikavialnghith - Thetharre....

    Tirukural was from Indian Vedic Tradtion and morethan 100 Kurals woudl confirm it and I SHALL handle them all One by one.

    Let us live by Kural and Satyameva Jeyathe
    MosesMohammedSolomon

  11. #50
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    As I have already expressed every religious / atheist guy of present day claims that thirukkural supports each of them. This specifies thirukkural’s common philosophy. Its “Pothumarai” nature.

    In this context we have to look into history circumstances of valluvar days and come to the conclusion what exactly valluvar means to say. During the period of Christianity of Jesus Vedhic rituals were formulated in India. I have already shown vedhic time as 1 st century CE.

    Christians, North Hindus and later Mugammathians ARTIFICIALLY created certain beliefs of Heaven and hell from ancient tribal culture NATURALLY prevailed all over the world. The cradle of tribal civilization started in tamil land. Engels called tamil land as “Cradle of foremost civilization”. Iron, Mud urn, Chakkaram and Marakkalam were the best invention of tamils in those days. Tamil worship based on natural gods of five lands and Inthiran and varunan were natural gods.

    Natural worship prevailed (praying natural things) in all tribal culture of world like tamils. It turned into artificial heaven gods / hell gods later period. Historiens shows lot of evidences that the three major religions namely Christins, Vedhics (They call themselves as hindus) and Mohammadians were influenced by ancient tribal cultures of natural god worshippers. Buddhists differ from this eventhough they adapt spiritual teachings of tribal culture in the sense that the other three religions follow imaginative purana stories exploiting all tribal culture values.

    Kootruvan is from Kootram / Kottram which means nation. When the kings / rulers / forefathers of family died they became gods of people. Nadukal worship thus came into being and we can see it in all pre Christian / Muslim / vedhic cultures like tamils, Egyptian & Sumerian worship. That is the foremost worship. I showed “silappathikaram” lines meant for a king who attacked Meru mountain sea and in turn sea attacked the old kumari kandam kings. “Thenpulaththar” were remembered for their losing life to Sea disaster. That is what Thirukkural specifies. Valluvar’s worship was based on natural things. No rituals specified in Valluvam / in any other sankam literature for death man. Atharvana vedhas contained the rituals portions of death which is of later origin. That too earlier followed by Malayala Namboothiris only.

    Dear soloman, I expect from you to show “rituals death ceremony / practice” of sankam literature is as mentioned in Vedhics rituals which you can't do.

    Inthiralokam and narakalokam were created by vedhical texts and puranaas in imaginative way. In puranas narakalokam is in south. Does Soloman claim all ancestors went Narakam and so Thenpulaththar worship ?

    As per Vedhic mythology Inthiralokam is in east. Sorkalokam is in top. Yaman is in north and faces south is the myth in Vedhas. Human spirits roam something in the middle of earth. All confusions. People tend to have “Vadakkiruththal” towards north to ask Kaalan to take up their breath. What was the practice in Vedhas solomon ? Nothing like this.

    Kaalan & yaman are tamil words went to sanskrit at later period. Vedham itself is a tamil word. And whenever Solomon finds Vedham he calls fradulently four vedhams. He coins new word SOUTH Vedham. Where is SOUTH vedham mentioned ? I asked query about Aru marai. No answer is so far. Masilomani questioned to prove four vedhas are marais . Nothing is proved. However Vedhas timeline is only centuries of common era (100 CE).

    These Vedhas, Akamams & puranas were certainly influenced by tamil culture only in spirituality and not in Imaginative stories / exploitation of society. For Example Karumam (tamil) / Vedhic karma theory was purely siddha /occulstisc oriented. This occulstism was specified as “Uoozh” in tamil. Silapathikaram or Manimekalai depends on stories on Uoozh. Valluvar also talks this. This “Uoozh” theory’s exploited version is Manusmirithi caste system.

    Tamils believed rebirth and it takes 7 times. The Nadi sothidam was based on this only. That is called “Ezhupirappu”. Present Arabian numbers were first invented by tamils. 7 & 9 are numbers specifying holiness and prosperity respectively. In all world ancient culture 7 was used as holy number. Lotus / White malli flower has seven foundation pedals used in nadukal worship Poosai (Pooja). Later on this 7 was taken by vedhics as 7 heavens,7 seas, 7 lands , 7 devas etc. in puraanas.

    Days of week was based on this 7. After sometime I may write the occultisc studies of tamils.

    “Ezhpirappu” is not put into one birth as Solomon claims and it is 7 different births of same soul after death. “Piravi Perungadal” specifies the eternity of life and it is “Uruvakam”.
    Chaldeans & Egyptians followed this. As usuall Vedhics copied this knowledge of tamils and made exploited and inevitable versions of this.

    Solomon try his forefather Maxmuller way that Max. used to say prakirt is from sanskrit whereas reality is Sanskrit is from Prakrit. Tamil culture did influenced Vedhic since Vedhic is later but not the exploited version which is to be perished at any cost.

    f.s.gandhi

    "Kal thonri man thontra kalathay mun thonri mootha kudi"- a second century literature- means when before stone became sand in earth the tamil tribes were formulated

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