THIRUKKURALH

[NVK Ashraf]

Ashrafji, again I feel most of us should CONCENTRATE on the Ist Athikaram’s last Kural - we have :
10. À¢ÈÅ¢ô ¦ÀÕí¸¼ø ¿£óÐÅ÷ ¿£ó¾¡÷
þ¨ÈÅý «Ê§ºÃ¡ ¾¡÷.

Jainism is purely Agnostic even at many times close to Atheistic; Only your Actions could save you. This One Kural certainly makes that Valluvar was following Jainistic Ethos. want lot more meaningful Discussion. Please enlighten us. Please, and link us to Your Website, and your idea has put me to have my own Website giving the Tamil Sangam and its background.

The last couplet when translated goes like this:
The ocean of births can be crossed by none other than
Those who reach the feet of the Lord. * (PS Sundaram, modified)

This being the meaning, I am surprising with your observation that it this couplet shows Valluvar's Jaina ethos more than the others. If fact this verse is a general one and can be applied to all dieties, be it Saiva, Vaishnava, Buddhist or Jaina.

I would say the following couplets have a special Jaina import than the rest:

Couplet 3:
Long life on earth is theirs who reach
The glorious feet of Him who walked on flowers. (PS Sundarama, VVS)

Couplet 6:
Long life is theirs who tread the path of Him
Who conquered the five senses. (PS Sundaram)

Couplet 1:
With alpha begins all alphabets;
And the world with the first Bagavan. (KN, SI)

Having said so, the first two could be comfortably be used for Lord Buddha himself and the last one (couple 1) for any deity. However, if you analyse carefully, all these three couplets perfectly match the requirements of a Jaina Tirthankara or Siddha. I don't want to mention here in detail how. Please wait for one more week and I will provide you the link once I complet the article which unfortunately runs down to 15 to 20 pages.

[devapriya]

Dear Ashraffji,

I HAVE discussed on the Historical Dating of Valluvar, as for your interpretation of Kural 10, I SHALL reply them in my next post.

As for as A Religion which is basically Agnostic to Athesitic, to say holding on to God's Feat is totally against it.

But let me put forth with Commentators in my next post.

Devapriya.

[nms]

DearAshraf/Sudhaama,
I feel that the discussion about the religion of "Thiruvalluvar" is not important.
Gnanigal samayangalai thurandhuvidugiraargalh.Samayangalh thaan avargalai thurappadhillai.
Valluvar oru thalai sirandha gnani - avar emmadhathai saarndhavaraaga irundhaal enna?adhai therindhu kholcathaal payan aedhaenum vunda??
enakku therindhu illai.kuralhai pinpattrinaal podhumae enru thonugiradhu - idhu sariyaa enru theriyavillai.vilakkavum.

[NVK Ashraf]

Dear NMS,

Your remarks remind me very much of an email I received from K. Arasu three months back. This is what he wrote when I mentioned to him that I am doing a research on the claims of Valluvar being a Jain.

Dear Ashraf

I am not religious fanatic. You said that Valluvan's religious background has not been established. Do you want to establish or any one interested to establish? Why distract from what Valluvan said for the world? If any of his words are appealing and worth following, let us follow it. Making research on his religious background is waste of time and waste of arguement. Infact Jesus family is from Jew background, who cares who is what and why? Avoid giving any personal attachment to anybody. Our body goes to the ground, but not good deeds and service we have given to mankind. Cheers, no more on Valluvan's ethenic background. Read and read again Valluvan's words and nothing else. Take care and cheers.

-arasu

But the fact of the matter is we do not know anything about the author of Kural as much as we know about his work. That is why President Kalam specifically requested scholars to focus their Kural studies on Tiruvalluvar the person. Lot has been done and spoken about Kural, the Book and little has been mentioned about Valluvar, the author.

I am not trying to put Valluvar into the fold of any religion. Valluvar's message is loud and clear. It is for all the world. After all, like you and me, he must have been also born into some religion. Or at least he must have been influenced by some religious philosophy. But his composition is non-sectarian or at least that is how he wanted his work to be known. But I am afraid, he has failed to keep religious inclination unknown, especially when he wrote the first chapter.

[Sudhaama]

Dear NMS,

Your remarks remind me very much of an email I received from K. Arasu three months back. This is what he wrote when I mentioned to him that I am doing a research on the claims of Valluvar being a Jain.

Dear Ashraf

I am not religious fanatic. You said that Valluvan's religious background has not been established. Do you want to establish or any one interested to establish? Why distract from what Valluvan said for the world? If any of his words are appealing and worth following, let us follow it. Making research on his religious background is waste of time and waste of arguement. Infact Jesus family is from Jew background, who cares who is what and why? Avoid giving any personal attachment to anybody. Our body goes to the ground, but not good deeds and service we have given to mankind. Cheers, no more on Valluvan's ethenic background. Read and read again Valluvan's words and nothing else. Take care and cheers.

-arasu

But the fact of the matter is we do not know anything about the author of Kural as much as we know about his work. That is why President Kalam specifically requested scholars to focus their Kural studies on Tiruvalluvar the person. Lot has been done and spoken about Kural, the Book and little has been mentioned about Valluvar, the author.

I am not trying to put Valluvar into the fold of any religion. Valluvar's message is loud and clear. It is for all the world. After all, like you and me, he must have been also born into some religion. Or at least he must have been influenced by some religious philosophy. But his composition is non-sectarian or at least that is how he wanted his work to be known. But I am afraid, he has failed to keep religious inclination unknown, especially when he wrote the first chapter.

Dear Mr. Ashraf,

I agree Cent per cent on the words and spirit of Mr. Arasu. He has placed the INTELLECTUAL POINTS... quite laudably. My Hats off to him.

And I am surprised to see your funny defence on your side, justifying to PROCEED ON THE RELIGIOUS LEANING of the Person Thiruvalluvar.

My dear friend... I am asking you ..WHY?... What benefit of improved knowledge we are going to derive from his PRIVATE BACKGROUND.?

May be he was... a Jain, or Budhist or a Hindu... or of NO RELIGIOUS LEANING at all....What does it matter to us.?

Have we taken similar interests on Kamban or Ilango Adihalh or the like.?

Should we break our heads and conduct a Research and PUBLICISE such an UNINMPORTANT and UNHEALTHY interest, for the posterity.

But well... instead, if you are interested to analyse the RELIGIOUS SENSE only... behind Thirukkuralh...

...either of Jainism, or Budhism or Hinduism or any other Religion... in Totality or of Mosaic pattern... Welcome.

In brief... let us proceed to analyse the THIRUKKURALH Text in any angle of your outlook.... by INTELLECTUAL VALUES.

..but NOT ON THE PERSONAL FAITH OF THE AUTHOR.... which is his Private affair...

.....ThiruValhlhuvar... is the ETERNAL.. the Great Man of Humanity..!!!

[NVK Ashraf]

My dear friend... I am asking you ..WHY?... What benefit of improved knowledge we are going to derive from his PRIVATE BACKGROUND.?
May be he was... a Jain, or Budhist or a Hindu... or of NO RELIGIOUS LEANING at all....What does it matter to us.?
Have we taken similar interests on Kamban or Ilango Adihalh or the like.?

Dear Sudhaama,

I am surprise to see this remark coming from you! Not until last week, you were of the firm view that Valluvar was an uncoventional Hindu. This is what you had written:

When I said the only widely accepted "NOTION" is that Valluvar must have been an "unorthodox" Hindu, you said "it is NOT A NOTION".

When I said that the work is based on Jaina ideals and the names/attributes of God(s) Valluvar refer to in Chapter 1 are more apt to describe Jaina deities than that of any other faith, you replied......"No. Scholars say that this is the very chapter-I which is leading us more towards the concept of Vedic-faith than other faiths"

The point I want to emphasize is that there is a tendency on the part of the majority Hindus to either insist that Valluvar was an unorthodox revolutionary Hindu or criticise those who try to establish religious basis of Valluvar's non-sectarian work, especially when evidences are produced contrary to their liking. For instance, in spite making his opinions very clear, Mr. K. Arasu, had nothing to reply when I wrote him back saying:
Dear Arasu,

Thanks for your observations. I realise that your reaction comes from the mistaken belief that I am also one amongst those who waste precious time in trying to find out Valluvar's religious background. Even those who tried to establish or tried to prove that Valluvar was a Hindu or Jain or Christian, always appreciated Valluvar's catholicity and never tried to brand Valluvar's work as something meant for Jains or Hindus alone.

We don't have any biographical material to establish his religious background and the only we have is his work, the Kural. From the Kural, we can only show some pointers to the ideas or ideals that attracted Valluvar the most while composing his couplets. I am convinced that the Kural contains more of Jaina ideas than any other system that prevailed during his time. This does not necessarily mean Valluvar was a Jaina. This is not a wishful statement I make without doing any reseach. We can discuss on this, if you disagree with my observation. .....

Regards
Ashraf

You mentioned about Kambar and Ilango. Everyone knows Cilappadikaram is a Jaina work and Kambar's Ramayana is a Hindu epic. What special effort is required to prove their religious background or inclination?

I repeat what I said before. My intention is not to confine Valluvar within the fold of any religion. Anyone who says Valluvar is a Hindu should equally be criticised as the one who claims Valluvar to be a Jain! There is a tendency to take what the majority believe in as the truth. I am afraid it is not the right method.

[Sudhaama]

...When I said that the work is based on Jaina ideals and the names/attributes of God(s) Valluvar refer to in Chapter 1 are more apt to describe Jaina deities than that of any other faith,

..you replied......"No... Scholars say that this is the very chapter-I which is leading us more towards the concept of Vedic-faith than other faiths"

.. Even those who tried to establish or tried to prove that Valluvar was a Hindu or Jain or Christian, always appreciated Valluvar's catholicity and never tried to brand Valluvar's work as something meant for Jains or Hindus alone.

... From the Kural, we can only show some pointers to the ideas or ideals that attracted Valluvar the most while composing his couplets.

I am convinced that the Kural contains more of Jaina ideas than any other system that prevailed during his time. This does not necessarily mean Valluvar was a Jaina. This is not a wishful statement I make without doing any reseach. We can discuss on this, if you disagree with my observation. .....

Regards
Ashraf

I repeat what I said before. My intention is not to confine Valluvar within the fold of any religion. Anyone who says Valluvar is a Hindu should equally be criticised as the one who claims Valluvar to be a Jain! There is a tendency to take what the majority believe in as the truth. I am afraid it is not the right method.[/color]

Dear Mr Ashraf,

I clarify .. that I have never indulged in analysing the PERSONAL RELIGIOUS FAITH of the Author, Valhlhuvar... but if any of my words inadvertently implied such a sense, ...

..then I affirm that my words were meant only on his Work Thirukkuralh.. nothing beyond... on the Authors Personal Faith.

I reiterate that according to Parimael-azhahar... which has been generally accepted by the Tamil-Scholars, since a long time.. as authentic...

"Thirukkuralh...is NO DOUBT ... A PODHU-MARHAI... of Catholicity... coupled with Sectarian approach of broad outlook..

...A Non-Religious.. Scripture of Moral Values... on EARTHLY LIFE mostly..

..an INVALUABLE MESSAGE towards the Advancement and Emancipation of Global Mankind.

But most of its Wordings and Sense... convey the semblance with the

..Large-hearted SECTARIAN parts of Vedic Religion, so called Hinduism.

I am anxious to hear from you... how and where you differ with me.

...Yes. Please proceed on Your Jainic thinking.
.

[FloraiPuyal]

Thirukkural doesnt reflect any religion in specific. It was meant to be free from religions and Thiruvalluvar achieved it.

Thiruvalluvar is clearly a saivaite. Most of the sangam poets were saivaites and Thiruvalluvar was no exception to this. Please read his other works and you will find he is a saivaite.







யாகாவா ராயினு னாகாக்க

[NVK Ashraf]

Dear Sudhaama,

You said:
“I reiterate that according to Parimael-azhahar... which has been generally accepted by the Tamil-Scholars, since a long time.. as authentic….”

Once again, we are misled by tradition and by what the majority have agreed to trust upon. All other commentaries have taken a back seat because of the recognition given to Parimel. Hope you are aware that many consider Manakkudavar’s commentary (being the oldest surviving one) to be more simple and close to the original. Zvelebil (1975) refers to a Kanchi inscription which mentions about many Jaina commentators of Kural that have been lost.

You also said:
"Thirukkuralh...is NO DOUBT ... A PODHU-MARHAI... of Catholicity... coupled with Sectarian approach of broad outlook.. ... A Non-Religious.. Scripture of Moral Values... on EARTHLY LIFE mostly....an INVALUABLE MESSAGE towards the Advancement and Emancipation of Global Mankind".

Of course yes. Even a Jain has no authority to call Kural as his scripture. In fact it is not a scripture at all!

And your third comment:
But most of its Wordings and Sense... convey the semblance with the ..Large-hearted SECTARIAN parts of Vedic Religion, so called Hinduism. I am anxious to hear from you... how and where you differ with me.

This where I beg to differ. Valluvar’s work is based on Jaina principles of ethics and his Invocation to god is more applicable to a Jaina deity than a Vedic one. Let me first complete that article and then we can take it from there. No point in posting all the details here. I will provide the link once it is done.

Thanks for patience.

[NVK Ashraf]

Dear Mr. Puyal,

Thirukkural doesnt reflect any religion in specific. It was meant to be free from religions and Thiruvalluvar achieved it.

Yes, it is free from religious and philosophical dictums of the kind you will find in works like Tirumandiram, Thevaram or Nalatiyar. Yes, it was also meant to be a non-sectarian one and Valluvar has managed to do it. However, his religious inclination is clearly evident in the foundation of his work and the Involcation of the Deity he preferred.

Thiruvalluvar is clearly a saivaite. Most of the sangam poets were saivaites and Thiruvalluvar was no exception to this. Please read his other works and you will find he is a saivaite.
யாகாவா ராயினு னாகாக்க

I am surprised with your observations. First of all the Kural is not is accepted by the majority as a Sangam work but as a work that appeared during the post Sangam age of "Ethical period". I am keen to know how you call him a Saivite. Perhaps you can go through my article (I will be uploading that soon) and comment on my reasoning why I consider Valluvar's work is based on Jaina ideas.