View Poll Results: TAMIL or SANSKRIT which is the most ancient language ?

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  • TAMIL

    8 88.89%
  • SANSKRIT

    1 11.11%
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Thread: TAMIL is much ELDER to SANSKRIT !

  1. #171
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    solomon wrote : With Regard to Rig Veda to Ramayan and Mahabaratha are all considered as ONLY Sanskrit by every University researching all over the World.
    oh yeah, though the langauge used in these are so different they can be called be same, but proto dravidian and Tamil cannot be same for sure. What kind of logic is this ?

    solomon wrote :Tamil Spoken then had quiet a lot of Proto Dravidian Words or KodunTamil as Pavanar School's whitewahing calls them. So we can say, Classical Tamil of Sangam Literature was Never Spoken at all.

    Pavanar's school called Tamil Koduntamil because it had proto dravidian words, it is news to me

    solomon wrote : Sangam Literature and Silapathikaram clearly mentions of Vadugu being spoken in beyond Tirupathi. And on Senguttuvan's Expedition Sangam Lit. says- "Mozhi Pala Nadu Kadanthu" i.e., Existance of Other Languages during BCE periods.

    Nobody denies the presence of other languages in India during the later sangam era

    solomon wrote : Pragrit and Classical Sanskrit as Per Western Universities are considered as Ideological twins developement from Vedic Sanskrit. When we look at Brahmi Tamil Inscriptions, which do not use Classical Tamil, same way all over India, the Stone Inscriptions of the same Period use Calloquial spoken language Pragrit a twin of Sanskrit. No Linguistic Objective research put it with Dravidian Group.

    You are missing the point here, the stone inscriptions in Tamil, clearly identify them as Tamil. While the inscriptions before 150 AD clearly identify them as prakrits, in the sence they do not follow the grammer of sanskrit or even the vocabulary. If we see a bengali text we would definetly find few words to be hindi like, that does not make them the same language. They are distinct.

    solomon wrote : On Tamil Development, I Showed- Words for ThAT-WHAT-This-Antha- Entha- Intha are not there in TholKappiyam to Tirukural.

    I do not find shakespear using 90 % of words in the webster dictionary, so I conclude that English during shakespear time was only 10 % complete and has been growing . Sorry I cannot control but laugh at this logic.



    solomon wrote : ible Old Testament's Genesis is presently dated to close to 300-200BCE, and Prophets to 300-50BCE, and Writings to 200BCE to 130CE,ofcouse using Earlier oral materials which more or less coincide with Sangam Lit. They must be looked for its Historical Contents and Linguistical words.

    Just out of curiosity, the hebrew bible refers words like 'tokai' for peacock feathers and 'ari' for lion. Looks like they are tamil words.

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  3. #172
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    ELDER SANSKRIT AND TAMIL LITERATURE

    Friends,

    Indus Archeology and Dravida or Aryan Contrversy.

    As per Linguists and Indologists, Both Aryan And Dravidian Language speakers came to India from Out of India, and Caldwell went on to say

    Dravidam- Dramizham-thramizam-Tamilam –Tamil is the Development.

    Indus and now other much more Ancient Sites have been found, dating upto BCE7,000. And No Outside visitors help for Civilisation development is found to Indigenous. All sites found as later than Indus- does not show the City type as Harappa or Mohanjadaro; whether Aadhichanallur or others; hence to call a section of people as Aryan or Dravidian is not relay supported by Archeology.

    I am reading much more on Dechipherment and my Much Detailed Posting would follow shortly.

    Aravindanji- I am awaiting your links on Horse Domestication. Aravindanji can You please enlighten us the Scholarly views on the Alleged Dechiphetrment by the Tamilnadu Govt. Tamil Akaramudali Project Director- R.Mathivanan.

    Aravindanji wanted my views on Sankrit Influence on Tamil Sangam Lit. and that my view on Pro.Hart’s books, Friends- Prof. Vaiapuri Pillai’s Research Articles still valued highly, and I will put the views of Communist writers over ThaniTamil Researchers, whose books are completely rejected by Scholars, where as VaiapuriPillai’s are still valued Highly.

    Prof.Kamil Zevilabil has dated Tamil Sangam Lit (Pavanar prefers Pandaya instead of Sangam as Sangam is Sanskrit), and the article is already put in this thread, and Zevilabil’s dates go almost close to VaiapuriPillai- such as Tirukural to 575CE, etc.,

    It would be ideal for All Tamils to know Sangam Lit., most of them are available in net at

    www.chennainetwork.com
    www.tamil.net/projectmadurai and can see how much of Vedas and Sanskrit Lit. has influenced them, my earlier posting I have given with reference to Vedas, being referred, I had given only less than 10%, the name SamaVeda is referred by name etc., my detailed postings would follow shortly.

    Mahadevan wanted Tamil words in Bible, and Aravindanji was against my use of word Deception by Church; Mahadevan-Please read my all posts in this thread- Tirukural thread, Tamil roots for Sanskrit Thread etc., But again a detailed posting would follow shortly.

    Aravindanji’s postings are of very high Scholarly; but still represents the Meaningless Political claims said by Un-objective Scholars, here and there.

    Aravindanji I Look for Your Posting on Mathivanan’s Dechipherment.

    MosesSolomon

  4. #173
    Senior Member Regular Hubber aravindhan's Avatar
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    Dating Tamil, and other things

    Quote Originally Posted by solomon
    Caldwell went on to say

    Dravidam- Dramizham-thramizam-Tamilam –Tamil is the Development.
    People like Caldwell were revolutionary for their day, but there is really little point in clinging on to the views of scholars of centuries past, when we now have so much more linguistic data to work on. Much of what Caldwell said has been superseded by newer research. For example, most scholars now believe that "Dravida" was simply a Sanskritisation of "Tamil".

    Quote Originally Posted by solomon
    hence to call a section of people as Aryan or Dravidian is not relay supported by Archeology.
    It is pretty clear that the Indo-Aryan languages and the Dravidian languages represent two entirely different language families. It is also pretty clear that there have been several rounds of migration into India, separated by vastly different periods of time. The linguistic evidence points to a lack of contact between speakers of Indo-Aryan and Dravidian languages before they each entered India. The archaelogical evidence points to a progressively increasing degree of contact and mingling between these peoples after both were established in India. There is, unfortunately, the famous "South Asian archaelogical black hole" - a period of a few centuries in relation to which we have almost no significant archaelogical evidence - which severly limits our ability to use only archaelogy to understand what was going on in India. The literary evidence, however, points to a period when the mutual influence was pretty minimal and the cultures diverged fairly significantly.

    There are a range of conclusions one can draw from these individual pieces of evidence as to the contexts in which it makes sense to speak of "Aryan" and "Dravidian" in India. For a range of scholarly writings (and some different opinions) on this point, I recommend Aryan and Non-Aryan in India, edited by M.M. Deshpande and P.E. Hook. The book was published in 1979, but much of the scholarship in it is still fresh and not out-dated.

    Quote Originally Posted by solomon
    Aravindanji- I am awaiting your links on Horse Domestication.
    I will do so in a while - I have a very demanding full-time job and family commitments, and that doesn't give me as much time to spend here as I would like. Digging through my notes for the Hub is unfortunately fairly low down on my list of priorities.

    Quote Originally Posted by solomon
    Aravindanji can You please enlighten us the Scholarly views on the Alleged Dechiphetrment by the Tamilnadu Govt. Tamil Akaramudali Project Director- R.Mathivanan.
    I'm not sure why you're bringing up Mathivanan's work, since it's not something I've ever adverted to. As I understand it, linguists have raised two objections to Mathivanan's decipherment. The first is that he reads the script from left to right, although most scholars believe it was written from right to left, on the basis of the the form of the marks on seals showing the direction in which the signs on them were cut. The second is his methodology of assigning phonetic values to signs, which is said to lack rigour - the syllable he chooses to represent the phonetic value of each pictogram is not always obvious, it is said, and the system results in a large number of signs representing identical values, which is said to be counter-intuitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by solomon
    Aravindanji wanted my views on Sankrit Influence on Tamil Sangam Lit. and that my view on Pro.Hart’s books, Friends- Prof. Vaiapuri Pillai’s Research Articles still valued highly, and I will put the views of Communist writers over ThaniTamil Researchers, whose books are completely rejected by Scholars, where as VaiapuriPillai’s are still valued Highly.
    As Prof. Hart points out, there are a number of problems in Vaiyappuri Pillai's work and particularly his dating, which are largely a consequence of Pillai's rather outdated world-view, assigning priority to Sanskrit. It is also worth noting that Vaiyappuri Pillai did not use scientific methods in dating Tamil literature - it was his student M. Shanmugan who first started trying to see how they could be applied.

    Quote Originally Posted by solomon
    Prof.Kamil Zevilabil has dated Tamil Sangam Lit (Pavanar prefers Pandaya instead of Sangam as Sangam is Sanskrit), and the article is already put in this thread, and Zevilabil’s dates go almost close to VaiapuriPillai- such as Tirukural to 575CE, etc.
    Prof. Zvelebil's datings are consistently several centuries later than those of other Dravidologists, such as Prof. Hart. There is a reason for this, having to do with their methodologies - Prof. Zvelebil places much weight on the relationship between the themes of Tamil and Prakrit poetry and argues that they must be close in date. Prof. Hart, on the other hand, argues that this need not be so, and quite convincingly that the Prakrit poetry is a later manifestation of the same tradition as the Tamil poetry. Prof. Hart places more weight on early Tamil epigraphy and historical references in later Tamil literature to date Sangam literature. His methodology strikes me as being superior, although it assigns significantly later dates to Sangam works than I would like to believe. As I keep saying, though, the Adichanallur excavations have thrown open the entire question, and until we have a final dating of those, all discussions are hypothetical.

    Quote Originally Posted by solomon
    Mahadevan wanted Tamil words in Bible, and Aravindanji was against my use of word Deception by Church;
    I am aware of some Hebrew words thought to be of Tamil origin (such as "tukki" for peacock), which is hardly surprising, given that potshards with Tamil inscriptions have been found in sites on the Red Sea. As far as the rest of it goes - in a separate thread, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by solomon
    Aravindanji’s postings are of very high Scholarly; but still represents the Meaningless Political claims said by Un-objective Scholars, here and there.
    Could you please point to which "meaningless claims" I reiterate? Rejecting the unproven (and in my view, ridiculous) thesis that Sanskrit is the pure, unsullied root of all Indian civilisation, on the basis that it is unproven and contradicts what we know of ancient India, is hardly political.

  5. #174
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    solomon wrote:
    Mahadevan wanted Tamil words in Bible, and Aravindanji was against my use of word Deception by Church;

    I am aware of some Hebrew words thought to be of Tamil origin (such as "tukki" for peacock), which is hardly surprising, given that potshards with Tamil inscriptions have been found in sites on the Red Sea. As far as the rest of it goes - in a separate thread, please.


    Hi Aravind, the point I was trying to make was. peacock is pretty unique to tropics, when the Hebrew word for its feathers is derived from Tamil and not sanskrit, it says something.

  6. #175
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    solomon wrote:
    hence to call a section of people as Aryan or Dravidian is not relay supported by Archeology.

    Solomon Anna please explain the following,

    i) wheat is the staple food in North India like most of the west but it is Rice in the South

    ii)Baking is the most common food prep (Nan, Roti)method in North India like most of the west, but it is totally absent in the southern cuisine

    iii)Cheese (panneer) is very common North India like most of the west, but it is totally absent in the southern cuisine

    iv) Traditional dressing of North India is almost similar to that of people from afganisthan to middle east, but strikingly different from that of south.

    v) Religious tolerance is very limited in North India like the west, but the south India is very secular. Look at the stats of violence during the aftermath of babri demolition.

    vi) More than every thing the language, language, language.

    How can Archeology support whether it is Aryan or Dravidian ? what kind of evidence are you looking for ?

  7. #176
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    INDUS PICTOGRAMS-MATHIWANAN'S FORGERY

    Friends,
    Mr.FSG had given excessive importance to R.Mathivanan’s alleged Deciphering of Indus Pictogram Symobls as Clear Tamil.

    I had then explained it was false reading wrongly the script is Originally from Right to Left [like Arabi and Hebrew] by reading it from Left to right, total Upsurd. Let Us Thank Mr.Aravindan for Confirming it.

    Friends, FSG also in another post said Mathivanan finding a BiLingual Seal of dated to 1600BCE, having both Indus and Brami inscriptions from Srilanka. THIRD RATE FORGERY and details are as follows.

    Srilankan Seal was found by archaeological team led by K.Indrapala of the University of Jaffna excavated a megalithic burial complex at Anaikoddai in Jaffna District, SriLanka. In one of the burials, a metal seal was found assigned by the excavators to ca.3rd century B.C.
    The Seal’s Brahmi portion is dechiphered as ko ve ta. Mathivanan, twisted this as tivu-ko, King of Island, again not in the Seal. By dating meaninglessly 300BCE Seal and Misreading to get a meaning are the Techiniques, Mathivanan further forgery continues.

    A Metal Coin found near Alur in Kurnool District of Andhra Pradesh. The circular thick coin (probably in lead) features a horse on the obverse and some illegible symbols on the reverse. Numismatic experts date it 200CE, Sathavana coin. Mathivanan’s Forgery- Drawing it reads it as Nanda from actually illegible as Nanda, calling it as Pre Mauryan period, i.e. the 300BCE Srilanka Seal as 1600 BCE and 200CE as somewhere close to 700BCE, claiming a Continuity. Third Rate Forgery Continues.

    Forgery-3. Indus Script found in a Tribal Santhal village in Bihar

    A Legendery claim was made 1993, by One Verma, that in Bihar Santhal Village, Indus Script is still alive and Deciphered words in Sanskrit, Hebrew, Persian-Arabic and English. Mr.Mathivanan took Verma and visited Santhal Village and Met the Temple Priest who was regularly wrinting with Indus Scripts. The Colour Photos in the Book of Mathiwanan were drawn on Recently Whitewashed Walls by learned man and not a Tribal, mostsly by seeing Published Seals. Another Worst Forgery.

    Again earlier Verma read- so many Language words; now all are Tamil ofcourse with few IndoEuropean Loan words Tamilised also. MATHIWANAN also read it as LEFT TO RIGHT the Symbols actually written in opposite Direction.

    Further Tamil has only 30 Letters; i.e., Vuyir 12 + Mei 18, But Indus has 419 Pictograms- Mathivanan has almost assigned 40 Symbols with single Tamil Letter. FORGERY TO the Core.

    Friends- the method of Mathivanan was so sad for the Entire Indian Scholarship, and also as in his earlier book he has expressed all meaningless Linguistic Claims held by Pavanar (KumariKandam Legends & Natural Language), all this made his book as a laughing Stock in International Scholarship.

    I shall explain on Potters Graffiti Techniques in my next posting and later Why Indus Deciphering claims of Parpola and I.MAhadevan are all Speculations, and for the present it be looked as Undeciphered and not Dravidian or Sanskrit.

    Friends, The Political Cliamate in Tamilnadu helps these forgeries and I am Putting a detailed forgery In HIstorical Distorters Thread.

    Friends, I regard Tamil And Sanskrit both have been developed in India, and as Rig Veda has close to 500 Tamil words, both are of equal Antiquity, but Tamil Literature available from 200BCE only whereas Sanskrit Vedas are from 2000BCE.

    MosesSolomon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mod
    You have been BANNED..!

  8. #177
    Senior Member Senior Hubber Idiappam's Avatar
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    ancchaneya wrote:

    {lies deleted}........ 2000BCE.

    MosesSolomon.
    So you are "MosesSolomon" doubling as ancheneya as well.. Good ploy.. Solomon writes and ancheneya tells him 'well said'... Where did you learn this trick ???

  9. #178
    Senior Member Senior Hubber kalnayak's Avatar
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    What are the other avtars of MosesSolomon other than Anjaneya? To be found from the postings - appreciating Moses' or Anjaneya's postings. I was wondering, having a christian name, but abusing christians, praising Sanskrit and its literature just to degrade Tamil. One fortunate thing - Arvindhan was sharing his useful information with us while giving replies to your posts. And Idiappam and Mahadeven etc were giving tit - a - tat to you.I wonder about this too - how it is possible for you to reveal by yourself that Anjaneya and MosesSolomon are the one and the same person(!!!) Any way your Mugathirai Kizhinthathu. I have to be careful - Entha putril entha paambu irukkumo?

  10. #179
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    solomon wrote:Friends, I regard Tamil And Sanskrit both have been developed in India, and as Rig Veda has close to 500 Tamil words, both are of equal Antiquity, but Tamil Literature available from 200BCE only whereas Sanskrit Vedas are from 2000BCE

    Hi solomon, is 'contradiction' your middle name. You accept that Rig has 500 words (infact over 30% of Rig is dravidian origin) of Tamil origin, and accept that both Tamil and Sanskrit are ancient. But would assume that Tamil Lit if only from 200BCE while Sanskrit Vedas are from 2000BCE. Is this not contradictory ?
    Infact historical event of common man is so well documented in Tamil Lit making it genuinely authentic, infact it is the only Lit in the world that seems to be knowledgeable about the 3 floods after ice age. Sanskrit Lit was not even aware of it. May be coastal regions were too windy for bonfires!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mod

    This topic is now locked as it has violated every guideline established for this Forum. Guidelines can be read in the Do's and Dont's post.

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