View Poll Results: TAMIL or SANSKRIT which is the most ancient language ?

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  • TAMIL

    8 88.89%
  • SANSKRIT

    1 11.11%
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Thread: TAMIL is much ELDER to SANSKRIT !

  1. #111
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    Dear r_kk,

    We don't take this nadi reading as a source of proof for history telling. We just discussed about the tamils spiritual contents. It is irrelevant to this topic also.

    Atheism / Non Atheism is different subject which we may discuss it in some other threads.

    I can tell you one thing. These Atheist movement in TamilNadu liberated the socially and educationally backward classes caused by
    Vedhic tradition. But it has some side effect in lesser percentage in correctly interpreting history also.

    All research scholars followed this concept of Aryan-Dravidian and completely neglected the other aspects of religiosity. The neglected tamil gods Inthiran and Varunan in their research have done much helpful to Vedhics to claim everything in India is Vedhic.

    Hence We have to analyse the history in its prevailing situations of yesteryears,of course, scientifically and not on the basis of any belief of mankind including Atheism.

    f.s.gandhi
    "Kal thonri man thontra kalathay mun thonri mootha kudi"- a second century literature- means when before stone became sand in earth the tamil tribes were formulated

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  3. #112
    Senior Member Devoted Hubber r_kk's Avatar
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    Dear FSG,
    As long as no one call any supernatural proofs, I don't want to interfer in to this subject, since my knowledge in the subjects compared to you and MR. Solomen, are very limited. What ever be yours and Solomen's view, both are seems to be equally knowledgeable but having opponent views. Interesting arguments. Go ahead.... Sorry for the interruption.
    Netrikan thirapinum kutram kutrame...

  4. #113
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    Here I show how Japanese language is resembling tamil with few illustrations. East world languages never suit with middle and west asian languages always.

    But We find Tamil only resembles with east languages. Chinean tradition dates back to 3000 BCE. Japanese heritage dates back to 2000 BCE. Both resembles with tamil heritage. No other world heritage suits with Japanese.

    Language archeology shall be the primary aspect in detecting the truth alongwith other archeological studies. Root words explanation is the best solution to find out the antiquity of any language. Once again I prove this by this passage.

    THE GENEALOGY OF THE JAPANESE LANGUAGE

    - Tamil and Japanese - by Dr.SUSUMU OHNO



    In search of languages genetically related to Japanese, linguists over the last one hundred years have compared Japanese with almost every other language in the world-not only those of neighbouring peoples such as Ainu, Korean and Indonesian, but even Greek; yet none of these efforts have succeeded in establishing any kind of kinship.

    After vexed trying the evidence for a Japanese-Tamil relationship has been found out and this can be further accumulated. The questions that will quickly follow, then, are when and how their connection began. There are three possibilities. One is that language was transmitted (from India) to Japan by land. Another is that it was transmitted by sea. The third possibility is that an intermediary language existed-possibly in what is presently the Chinese province of Yunnan, or further west-and that it was carried southward to India and eastward to Japan. Deciding when and how the Japanese-Tam ii (Tamil) relationship began, however, is a task for the future.

    (Note : He examined 600 words.I give here some of them. He in his published book fully analyse the grammar and cultural aspects. Here I give only the words comparison. J- Japanese, T- Tamil)

    J Far-u (to swell, expand)
    T. Par-u (to swell)
    J. Far-ara (to be broken off)
    T. par-i (to be sundered
    J. Far-uka (to be far off)
    T. par-a (to be far, wide)

    J. Far-a (the ocean)
    T. par-avai (sea)

    J. Fat-akë (field for cultivation)
    T. pa~-ukar (rice field)

    J. Fat-u (to end, perish, die)
    T. pat-u (to perish, die)

    J. Fir-o (wide, great)
    T. per-u (great, large)

    J. Fo:k-u (to eulogize, praise)
    T. puk-aJ (eulogy)


    J. Fot-o (time)
    T. pot-u (time)

    J. Far-u (to become bulky)
    T. par-u (to be bulky)

    J. Far-e (to be diffused, as clouds, gas)
    T. par-a (to be diffused, as clouds)

    J. Far-a (field of sky)
    T. par-am (heaven)

    J. Far-aFu (to exorcise)
    T. Par-avu (to exorcise)

    J. Fat-u (first, new of the season)
    T. pat-u (to appear for the first time)

    J. Fat-u (to stay [ship])
    T. pat-u (to stay in a harbour)

    J. Fin-a (rustic)
    T. pin (rear place)

    J. Fuk-asu (to smoke, steam)
    T. pok-ai (to smoke, vapor)

    J. För-ö (cloth cover)
    T. por-vai (covering)

    J. For-u (to desire)
    T. pur-i (to desire)

    J. Fut-a (cover, lid)
    T. put-ai (to bury, hide, cover)

    J. Fut-o (to be bulky)
    T. pu~-ai (bulkiness, protuberance)

    J. Fur-c (village)
    T. pul-am (village, place)

    J. Fun-c (ship)
    T. puri-ai (raft, boat)

    J. FOr-ö (tumor, abscess)
    T. purr-u (scrofulous, scurby one]


    J. taF-uru (to die)
    T. tap-u (to perish, die)

    J. öF-ö (big, to flourish)
    T. upp-u (to become big, bloat)

    J. aF-u (to meet, be fit)
    T. opp-u (to agree, be fit)

    J. köF-u (to beg)
    T. kupp-u (to join hand as in worship)

    J. tuF-a (spittle)
    T. tupp-al (saliva)

    J. suF-u (to suck)
    T. cüpp-u (to suck, sip)

    This proves once again tamil's antiquity and sankrit is not par with tamil ever.

    f.s.gandhi


    "Kal thonri man thontra kalathay mun thonri mootha kudi"- a second century literature- means when before stone became sand in earth the tamil tribes were formulated

  5. #114
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    Vadamozhi and Tamil- Aryan And Dravidian Myth- Indus Frauds.

    Friends,
    Most of friends are familar with Dubious CLAIMS of DEchiphering of Indus-Saraswathi CviliSATION as Tamil-by Dr.R.Mathivanan, by Reading it Left to Right, AND I quote from KAMIL ZVELEBIL-from Transtation :--
    Valapurathil Irunthu IDapuram Nokiiye Eluthap pattulathu endra mudivukku Atharavaka Virivana Vathangalai JohnMarshal (1931) Gad and Smith(1931) G.R.Hunter (1934) A.C.SRose(1939) G.V.Alexive(1965) akiyorutaya Aivukalalum, Sirappaga B.B.Lal(1966, 1968) and Iravatham Mahadevan (1970,1980) akiyorudaya Aivukalilum Kanalam. and this ARticle is full Review of Deciphering and his final view is :
    Iruthiyagavum Vurithiyagavum Koorathakka Or ETHIRMARYAANA mUDIVU ENNAVENIL, Sinduveli Eluthinai Patithu Vilakkam Alithullathakak Koori Veliyidapattula Entha Or Aivume Erkath Thakkathaka Illai.

    Now IF FSG who Proudly spreading the Falsehood of Tamil Decipherment, Must take the Challenge Given by OXFORD/Cambridge Scholors are Stop Non-sense spreading further.
    I GIVE mr.B.B.Lal' article on Aryan Invasion Myth as follows:
    A Fresh Look at Ancient Indian History

    B. B. Lal

    Director General (Retd.), Archaeological Survey of India

    Lecture given at the National Council of Educational
    Research and Training (NCERT), New Delhi

    For a pretty long time the following four myths have been obscuring our vision of India’s past:

    Myth 1: ‘There was an Aryan Invasion of India’

    Myth 2: ‘The Harappans were a Dravidian-speaking People’

    Myth 3: ‘The Rigvedic Sarasvati was the Helmand of Afghanistan,’ and

    Myth 4: ‘The Harappan Culture became Extinct’

    And here is how these myths came into being.

    In the nineteenth century a German scholar, F. Max Muller, dated the Vedas, on a very ad hoc basis, to 1200 BC. Granting that the Sutra literature may have existed in the sixth-fifth centuries BC, he assigned a duration of two hundred years to each of the preceding literary periods, namely those of the Aranyakas, Brahmanas and Vedas and thus arrived at the figure of 1200 BC for the last-named texts. However, when his own colleagues, like Goldstucker, Whitney and Wilson, challenged him, he stated that his dating was ‘merely hypothetical’ and confessed: ‘Whether the Vedic hymns were composed in 1000 or 1500 or 2000 or 3000 BC, no power on earth will ever determine.’ However, the saddest part of the story is that his blind followers, both in India and abroad, even today swear by 1200 BC and do not dare cross this Laksmana rekha.

    Be that as it may. The first quarter of the twentieth century witnessed the discovery of an altogether unknown civilization on the Indian subcontinent, datable to the third millennium BC. Called variously the Harappan, Indus or Indus-Sarasvati Civilization, it is characterised, amongst other things, by systematic town-planning, an underground drainage, excellently engraved seals, a monumental script, a refined system of weights and measures and some beautiful statuary. However, recent excavations have thrown new light on various other aspects of this civilization, which call for a fresh look at many issues connected with it. Radiocarbon dates indicate that its roots go back to the 5th millennium BC, while its peak period lay between 2600 and 2000 BC, after which began its decline.

    With the discovery of the Harappan Civilization there also started a debate about its authors. Because of Max Muller’s fatwa that the Vedas were not earlier than 1200 BC, it was argued that this civilization could not be associated with the Vedic people. Since the only other major language spoken on the subcontinent was the Dravidian it was but natural at that point of time to assume that the Dravidian-speakers were its authors.

    In 1946 Sir Mortimer Wheeler carried out further excavations at Harappa and discovered a fortification wall around one of the mounds. However, his interpretation of it was nothing more than a mere flight of imagination. Since the Rigveda refers to Indra as puramdara (destroyer of forts), he jumped at the idea that there was an ‘Aryan invasion’ which destroyed the Harappan Civilization, and the latter became ‘extinct’. To give a prop to his thesis, he referred to certain skeletal remains found at Mohenjo-*daro, which, he held, provided evidence of a ‘massacre’ by the invaders.

    If these skeletons are at all to be associated with a massacre by invaders, one expects that these would have come from the latest level. But the hard fact is that these came from various levels, some from the middle and some from the late, and some were found in deposits which accumulated after the site had been abandoned. Thus, there is no case for a massacre; and Professor George F. Dales of the University of California, Berkeley, has rightly dubbed it as a ‘mythical massacre’. Further, if there at all was an invasion, one expects at the site the weapons of warfare as also some remains of the material culture of the invaders. But there was no such evidence. On the other hand, there is a clear case of cultural continuity, not only at Mohenjo-daro but also at other Harappa Culture sites.

    Commenting on this issue, Lord Colin Renfrew (UK) avers: ‘If one checks the dozen references in the Rigveda to the Seven Rivers, there is nothing in any of them that to me implies invasion. … Despite Wheeler’s comments, it is difficult to see what is particularly non-Aryan about the Indus Valley Civilization.’

    After a thorough analysis of the skeletal data, Professor Hemphill (of USA) holds: ‘As for the question of biological continuity within the Indus Valley, two discontinuities appear to exist. The first occurs between 6000 and 4500 BC. The second occurs at some point after 800 BC but before 200 BC.’ It is, thus, abundantly clear that no new people entered the Indus Valley between 4500 BC and 800 BC. So, where is any case for an ‘Aryan invasion’ around 1500-1200 BC?

    Now to the second myth, viz. the ‘Harappan = Dravidian’ equation. It has been made out that the Aryan invaders drove away the ‘Dravidian-speaking’ Harappans to South India but a small section somehow managed to stay on in Baluchistan, speaking the Brahui language. However, many scholars do not agree that Brahui belongs to the Dravidian group. Some even hold that the Brahui-speaking people migrated to that region from elsewhere during the medieval times. Further, if the so-called Dravidian-speaking Harappans were pushed down to South India, one expects some Harappan sites over there. But the hard fact is that in none of the four Dravidian*-speaking States of South India, viz. Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Kerala do we have even a single site of the Harappan Culture !! On the other hand, what we do have in South India about that time is a neolithic culture. Do then the proponents of the ‘Harappan = Dravidian’ equation expect us to believe that the urban Harappans, on being sent away to South India, shed away overnight their urban characteristics and took to a Stone Age way of living?

    Again, it has been observed all over the world that even if the original inhabitants are pushed out of an area, some of the rivers, mountains and towns in that area continue to bear the original names. Thus, for example, even after the Europeans overran North America and gave their own names to the towns, such as New York, New Jersey, etc., many of the names of the towns and rivers given by the earlier inhabitants, viz. the Red Indians, may still be noted: for example, Chicago and Massachusett as those of towns and Missouri and Mississippi as of rivers. But in the entire region once occupied by the Harappans there is not even a single name of river, mountain or town which can claim a Dravidian origin. Why ? The obvious answer is that the Harappans were not a Dravidian-speaking people.

    Let us deal with the third myth, viz. that the Helmand of Afghanistan was the Rigvedic Sarasvati. This is totally wrong. According to RV 10.75.5, it lay between the Yamuna and Sutlej (imam me Gange Yamune Sarasvati Sutudri stotam sachata Parusnya…). RV 3.23.4 states that the Drishadvati and Apaya were its tributaries (Drishadvatyam manusa Apayam Sarasvatyam revadagne didihi… ). Further, RV 7.95.2 clearly mentions that the Sarasvati flowed all the way from the mountains to the sea (ekachetat Sarasvati nadinam suchir yati giribhya a samudrat… ). In Afghanistan there are no rivers by the name of Yamuna and Sutlej, nor are there Drishadvati and Apaya. Further, there is no sea in Afghanistan. So how can the Rigvedic Sarasvati be placed there? All this evidence ¾ positive in the case of India and negative in the case of Afghanistan ¾ clinches the issue: the present-day Sarasvati-Ghaggar combine, though now dry at places, does represent the Rigvedic Sarasvati (see Figs. 1 and 2); the Helmand of Afghanistan does not.

    Earlier we had established that the Harappans were not a Dravidian-speaking people. Were then they the Sanskrit-speaking Vedic people? Against such an equation the following four objections have been raised. First, the Vedic Aryans were ‘nomads’, whereas the Harappan Civilization had a major urban component. Secondly, the Vedas refer to the horse, whereas the Harappan Civilization is thought to be unfamiliar with it. Thirdly, the Vedic carts had spoked wheels, whereas the Harappan vehicles are supposed to be bereft of such wheels. And finally, since according to the dating of Max Muller the Vedas cannot be earlier than 1200 BC and the Harappan Civilization belonged to the third millennium BC, how can the two be equated?




    click here to see Fig. 1

    Fig. 1. The Saraswati basin in the 3rd millenium BC.




    Unlike nomads, the Vedic people lived a settled life and even constructed forts. In RV 10.101.8 the devotee’s prayer is: ‘[O gods] make strong forts as of metal, safe from assailants (purahkrinadhvamayasiradhrista). RV 4.30.20 refers to ‘a hundred fortresses of stone’. Sometimes these had a hundred arms (RV 7.15.14: purbhava satabhujih).

    The Vedic people carried on trade, not merely on land but also across the sea. RV 9.33.6 states: ‘From every side, O Soma, for our profit, pour thou forth four seas filled with a thousand-fold riches (rayah samudranchaturo asmabhyam soma visvatah. Apavasva sahasrinah)’. Further, the ships used in sea-trade were not petty ones but could be as large as having a hundred oars (sataritra, RV 1.116.5).






    Fig. 2. Landsat imagery of Sindh region, showing the possible
    course of the Saraswati beyond Marot through the Nara into
    the Rann of Kachchha. The Rann is conspicuous because
    of the high reflectance (white tone) of its encrustation




    Even on the political and administrative fronts, the Vedic people were highly organised. Not only did they have sabhas and samitis which dealt with legislative and perhaps judiciary matters, but they also had a well-established hierarchy amongst the rulers, viz. samrat, rajan and rajaka. Thus, in RV 6.27.8 Abhyavarti Chayamana is stated to be a Samrat. (Soverign), while RV 8.21.8 states that, dwelling beside the Sarasvati river, Chitra alone is the Rajan (king) while the rest are mere Rajakas (kinglings or petty chieftains). That these gradations were absolutely real is duly confirmed by the Satapatha Brahmana (V.1.1.12-13), which says: ‘By offering the Rajasuya he becomes Raja and by the Vajapeya he becomes Samrat, and the office of the Rajan is lower and that of the Samraj, the higher (raja vai rajasuyenestva bhavati, samrat vajapeyena l avaram hi rajyam param samrajyam).

    The horse. In his report on Mohenjo-daro, Mackay states: ‘Perhaps the most interesting of the model animals is one that I personally take to represent the horse.’ Wheeler also confirmed the view of Mackay. A lot more evidence has come to light since then. Lothal has yielded not only a terracotta figure of the horse (Fig. 3) but some faunal remains as well. On the faunal remains from Surkotada, the renowned international authority on horse-bones, Sandor Bokonyi, Hungary, states: ‘The occurrence of true horse (Equus Caballus L.) was evidenced by the enamel pattern of the upper and lower cheek and teeth and by the size and form of the incisors and phalanges (toe bones).’ In addition, there are quite a few other Harappan sites, such as Kalibangan and Rupnagar, which have yielded the faunal remains of the horse.






    Fig. 3. Lothal: Terracotta horse. Mature Harappan




    The spoked wheel. It is absolutely wrong to say that the Harappans did not use the spoked wheel. While it would be too much to expect the remains of wooden wheels from the excavations, because of the hot and humid climate of our country which destroys all organic material in the course of time ¾ the Harappan Civilization is nearly 5,000 years old, the terracotta models, recovered from many Harappan sites, clearly establish that the Harappans were fully familiar with the spoked wheel. On the specimens found at Kalibangan and Rakhigarhi (Fig.4), the spokes of the wheel are shown by painted lines radiating from the central hub to the periphery, whereas in the case of specimens from Banawali these are executed in low relief (Fig.5) ¾ a technique which continued even into the historical times.






    Fig. 4. Rakhigarhi: Terracotta wheel. The painted lines radiating from the central hub
    and reaching the circumference clearly represent the spokes of the wheel. Mature Harappan.




    Now to the chronological horizon of the Vedas. The Harappan settlement at Kalibangan in Rajasthan was abandoned, while it was still in a mature stage, because of the drying up of the adjacent Sarasvati river. This evidence has been thoroughly worked out by Italian and Indian hydrologists, and Raikes, the leader, aptly captions his paper: ‘Kalibangan: Death from Natural Causes.’ According to the radiocarbon dates, this abandonment took place around 2000-1900 BC. Eminent geologists, V. M. K. Puri and B. C. Verma, have demonstrated how the Sarasvati originated from the Himalayan glaciers and how subsequently its channel got blocked because of tectonic movements in the Himalayas, as a result of which the original channel dried up and its water got diverted to the Yamuna.






    Fig. 5. Banawali: Terracotta wheels showing the spokes in low relief. The specimen on the left is
    worn out but the spokes may still be seen. The specimen on the right, though broken,
    shows the spokes very clearly. Mature Harappan.




    Putting together the entire archaeological, radiocarbon*-dating, hydrological, geological and literary evidence, the following conclusion becomes inescapable, viz. that since during the Rigvedic times the Sarasvati was a mighty flowing river and according to the archaeological-radiocarbon-dating-cum-hydrological evidence this river dried up around 2000 BC, the Rigveda has got to be earlier than 2000 BC. How much earlier, it would, of course, be anybody’s guess.






    Fig. 6. Map showing a correlation between the Rigvedic area
    and the spread of the Harappan Civilization, before 2000 BC.




    As is absolutely clear from RV 10.75.5-6, the entire area right from the Ganga on the east to the Indus on the west was occupied by the Rigvedic Aryans. Further, since the Rigveda must be dated to a period prior to 2000 BC, a question may straightaway be posed: Which archaeological culture covered the entire region from the Ganga on the east to the Indus on the west during the period prior to 2000 BC? Please think coolly and dispassionately. If you do that, you cannot escape the inevitable conclusion: It was none other than the Harappan Civilization itself (Fig. 6). However, in spite of such strong evidence in support of a Vedic = Harappan equation, it would be prudent, as I have all along advocated, to put this equation on hold until the Harappan script is satisfactorily deciphered. It is needless to add that all the tall claims made so far in this respect are not tenable at all. Sorry !

    There is also no truth in the fourth myth, viz. that the Harappa Culture became ‘extinct’. What had really happened was that the curve of the Harappa Culture, which began to shoot up around 2600 BC and reached its peak, in the centuries that followed, began its downward journey around 2000 BC. Several factors seem to have contributed to it. Over-exploitation and consequent wearing out of the landscape must have led to a fall in agricultural production. Added to it was probably a change in the climate towards aridity. And no less significant was a marked fall in trade, both internal as well as external. As a result of all this, there was no longer the affluence that used to characterise this civilization. The cities began to disappear and there was a reversion to a rural scenario. Thus, there was no doubt a set-back in the standards of living but no extinction of the culture itself. In my recent book, The Sarasvati Flows On, I have dealt extensively with this aspect of continuity, giving comparable photographs of the Harappan objects and the present ones. In a nutshell, let it be stated here that whichever walk of life you talk about, you will find in it the reflection of the Harappa Culture: be it agriculture, cooking habits, personal make-up, ornaments, objects of toiletry, games played by children or adults, transport by road or river, folk tales, religious practices and so on. Here we give just a few examples. The excavation at Kalibangan has brought to light an agricultural field dating back to circa 2800 BC. It is characterised by a criss-cross pattern of the furrows (Fig. 7). Exactly the same pattern of ploughing the fields is followed even today in northern Rajasthan (Fig. 8), Haryana and western Uttar Pradesh. Today mustard is grown in the widely-distanced furrows and chickpea in the narrower ones (Fig. 9) and it is most likely that these very crops were grown in a similar manner during the Harappan times; we do have evidence of both these items from the Harappan levels. Kalibangan has also yielded a linga-cum-yoni (Fig. 10) of the same type as is worshipped now (Fig .11).






    Fig. 7. Kalibangan : An agricultural field, showing criss-cross pattern of furrows. Circa 2000 BC.








    Fig. 8. and Fig. 9. Around Kalibangan village. Left: The present system of ploughing the field,
    which also has the criss-cross pattern of furrows. Right: A present field with mustard plants
    in the widely-distanced furrows and those of chickpea in the others.








    Fig. 10. Kalibangan: Terracotta linga-cum-yoni. Mature Harappan








    Fig. 11. Siva linga-cum-yoni in a modern temple. From the
    overhead pitcher water-drops keep on dripping on the linga.




    This very site, along with Banawali, Rakhigarhi and Lothal, has brought to light ‘fire-altars’, indicating rituals associated with fire. In the illustration given here (Fig. 12) there were originally seven fire*-altars, some of which have been disturbed by a subsequent drain. There is a north-south wall at the back, indicating that the performer of the ritual had to face the east. In the front may be seen the lower half of a jar in which were found ash and charcoal, signifying that fire was kept ready for the ritual. Close to these fire-altars, on the left (not seen in the picture), there were a well and a bathing pavement, suggesting that a ceremonial bath constituted a part of the ritual. (It needs to be clarified that these fire-altars have nothing to do with those of the Parsis.)


    Fig. 12. Kalibangan: A row of seven 'fire-altars' discovered on a platform.
    (These were, however, disturbed by a subsequent drain.) Mature Harappan


    It would appear to be a mere tale if it was stated that yogic asanas, which are now becoming fashionable even with the elites, were being already practised by the Harappans (Fig. 13).


    Fig. 13. Terracotta figurines in Yogic asanas: 1-4, from Harappa;
    5-6, from Mohenjo-daro. Mature Harappan

    A married Hindu woman usually applies sindura (vermilion) to the manga (the line of partition of the hair on the head; Fig.14). Though most surprising, yet it is a fact that Harappan ladies did the same, as evidenced by many female terracotta figurines (Figs.15 and 16). In these terracottas, the ornaments are painted yellow to indicate that these were made of gold, the hair is black, while a red colour has been applied in the manga, indicating the use of vermilion. Even the Hindu way of greeting with a namaste (Fig.17) is rooted in the Harappan Culture, as shown by certain other terracotta figures (Fig.18).

    Fig. 14. Bihar Chief Minister Shrimati Rabri Devi and her husband Shri Laloo Prasad Yadav,
    in the State capital, Patna. Mark the vermilion in the manga of the lady,
    which is an indicator of her marital status.


    Fig. 15-16. Nausharo (Pakistan): Terracotta female figures, painted. The yellow colour on
    ornaments suggests that these were made of gold; the hair is black, while the red
    on the medial partition-line of the hair indicates the use of vermilion. 2800-2600 BC.


    Fig. 17. Former President of India, Shri K. R. Narayanan (extreme left), being greeted
    with namaste by the Prime Minister, Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee (extreme right),
    Shri L. K. Advani (middle) and others on the eve of the President's departure on a foreign tour.








    Fig. 18. Harappa: A terracotta figure greeting with namaste. Mature Harappan




    From the foregoing it must have become abundantly clear that all the four theories, viz. that there was an ‘Aryan Invasion of India’, that the ‘Harappans were a Dravidian-speaking People’, that the ‘Rigvedic Sarasvati is the Helmand of Afghanistan’ and that there was an ‘Extinction of the Harappa Culture’, are nothing more than mere myths which, once created, have subconsciously been perpetuated. Since these have coloured our vision of India’s past, the sooner these are cast away the better would it be. How long must we continue to bury our heads, ostrich-like, into the sand of ignorance ?

    In retrospect. One is set wondering as to why and how this great civilization of the Indian subcontinent ¾ called variously the Harappan, Indus or Indus-Sarasvati Civilization and whose roots go as deep as the fifth millennium BC ¾ still lives on, not as a fugitive but as a vital organ of our socio-cultural fabric. The Indian psyche has indeed been pondering over this great cultural phenomenon of ‘livingness’, and the quest has very aptly been echoed by a great Indian poet and thinker, Allama Iqbal, in these words:

    Yunan-o-Misra-Ruma sab mit gaye jahan se

    Ab tak magar hai baqi namo-nisan hamara

    Kuchh bat hai ki hasti mitati nahin hamari

    Sadiyon raha hai dusman daur-i-zaman hamara

    The poet says that whereas the ancient civilizations of Greece, Egypt and Rome have all disappeared from this world, the basic elements of our civilization still continue. Although world events have been inimical to us for centuries, there is ‘something’ in our civilization which has withstood these onslaughts.

    What is that ‘something’, some inherent strength? Doubtless it lies in the liberal character of the Indian civilization, which allows for cross-fertilisation with other cultures, without losing its own identity. One may well recall the words of the greatest man of our times, Mahatma Gandhi: Let me keep my doors and windows wide open so that fresh air may enter from all directions. Nevertheless, he was firmly seated in his room (the soul). The soul of India lives on !!

    Why Pepetuate Myths ?

    Friends My Posting are Bassed On Concluded Research Truths and Mr.FSG, speculates with Hypothesis- which are Proved wrong.

    My detailed article onTamil Marriage during Sangam Period and Casteism in Sangam Period would follow.
    MosesMohammed Solomon


  6. #115
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    TAMIL and VADAMOZHI- Friends Frauds

    Friends,

    I was going through this Thread and found that Mr.Solomon giving the views concluded by Universities and Mr.F.S.Candhi, Separate Tamil Scholars Hypothesises, and when Solomon put his article of
    Presence of Vedas in All Tamil Tholkappiyam to till date Continuously as below

    Tamil during all these period called SANSKRIT as VADASOL or VADAMOZHI or ARIYAM.
    VEDAS, where referred as NANMARAI, MARAI, ARANGAM, VEDAS, ARUMARAI, VEDHANERI etc.,
    Brahmins, of Vedic Heritage are called ANTHANAR, PARPANAR, ARUTOZHILAR etc., and I have collected some of them mentioned, Over a 1000 years.

    1. Ariyamum Tamilodu isaianavan- Appar Devaram 132:3

    2. Tamilsollum VADASOLLUM Thanzarsera GNASAm Dev77:4

    3. Vadmolium Then Tamilum MARAIGAL Nankum Anavan- Appar 301:1

    4. Marium Kodaium Varpani Tunganindru
    Erium Nindrangu Elaikindra Kalathu
    ARIAYMUM MUTAMILU Udane Solik
    Karigaiyarku Karunai Seithane- ThirumularThirumantiram 65

    5. Avilkindra varum athukattumarum
    Simittalai Pattuir Pogindra Varum
    Tamilchsol Vadasol Enumivvirandum
    Unarthun Avanai Unaralame. ThirumularThirumantiram 66

    6. ......
    Manthipol thirinthu ARIYATODU
    Sentamil payan Arikila
    Anthakarku Eliyan alen Tiru
    Alvaiyan Nirkave Thirugnasampanthar.

    7. Talaiana NAAL VETHATHAR Valunth Thalai sangali
    Nilayarntha Koile Koyilaka Nindrire - Thirugnasampanthar.

    8. Sentamilum Vadakalaiyum Nikalnta Navar Nalayira DivyaPrabantham 1624.

    9. ThennanTamilai Vadamolai

    10. Vadasorku Sentamilkum Varambaki
    Nanmaarain Kambaramayan Kishkantam 778


    This is in line with THOLKAPPIYAM, which says,

    a. Iyarsol Tirisol Thisaisol VADASOL endru
    Anaithe Cheul Ittach sol.
    b. VADASOL Kilavi VadaELuthu VORIE...
    Here he differenciates Vadamozhi grammer and Tamil
    On Brahmins Tholkappiyar says

    C. ARUVAGAI patta Parppana pakkamum - Thol-Porul-Pura 74.
    d. Ayumkalai Anthanarkuriya Thol-Po-Mar-80
    e. Penutagu Sirappin Parppan Porul- 502
    f. Maraiyor Theyathu Mandral Porul-Ka-1
    g. Poium Valuvam Tonriya pinnar
    Iyer Yatanar Karanam enba Po- Ka-1
    h. NooleKaragam Mukkol Manaiye Por-Ma 66.
    Aruvagaipatta or ARUTHOZIL Anthanar- is from shadakarma Nishadar of Vedic Heritage and is confirmed by SAngam song as follows:
    PathirruPathu-24

    Kelvi Kettu Padivam Vodiyathu
    Velvi Vettanai Vuyarnthor Vuvamba
    Othal Vettal Avaipirar Seital
    EIthal Erral enru Aaru Purintu olukum
    Arampuri Anthanar Valimolunthu Oluki. - Their Duties are :
    1. Read Great Books and research
    2. Teach those Books
    3. Do Vedhic Yagnas and Poojas for self
    4. Perform Vedhic Yagnas and Poojas for others.
    5. Give Money to Needy and
    6. Receive Money so that you can do 5.

    Now Let us See Sangam Literuature:

    1. Aruari Anthanarku Arumarai pala Pagarnthu
    Neruneer kadai karanthu Thiripuram Theemaduthu
    Kooramar Kurithathan mel seu kadunga vuli
    Marappor Manimidarren kaiyai kelani Kalithogai 1:1

    2. Arumarai Navin Anthanar - Sirupanarrupadai- 204

    3. Kelvi Anthanar Arunkadanirutha
    Velvi Thunathu Perumpanarrupadai- 315:6

    4. Anthi Anthanar Ethirkola Ayarnthu
    Senni Sevvazhal Thodanga Kalithogai 119-121.

    5. ...... Arutholiar Nool Marappar- Thirukural

    6. Arutolil Anthanar Aram Purinthu Edutu Puram 397

    7. Nan pala Kelvi murriya Velvi Anthanarku Puram 361

    8. Pulan Alukku Arra Anthanalalan Puram

    9. MARAI Navil Anthanar Nuvalvum padume Puram 1:5,6

    Vedas are Referred as Vethas, Chathur Marai, Arumarai.


    The Tamil Word, Marai- an excellent word, highly technical, an equivalent never
    is available in Sanskrit in which Vedas where written, MARAI, Means Unwritten,
    Vedas being not as per PANINI'S Grammer of 5th CenBCE, anybody trying to
    read without proper Guidance is likely to miss the original meaning and
    misinterpret the Vedas of its Theological context, so for long theVedas were
    not put in writing, another reason is Indian writing was done on Palm Leaves,
    which does not have long life, any corruption in leaf could change meaning,
    and to write the total Four Vedas and Upanishads in Palm Leaves would occupy
    the size of a Big Modern Library.

    AND Vedas- Authors are Unknown, the Tradition says that the Rishis with huge
    Meiditation, from the sound of Wind and waves etc., compiled the Vedas, This is
    the Tradition.

    THOLKAPPIYAM SAYS:
    1. NIRAI MOZHI MANTAR Aanaiyer Kilantha
    Marai Mozhi thane MANTIRAM enba and in another place

    2. Vinayin Neengi Vilangiya Arivin
    Munaivan Kandathu MuthaNoolakume Thol-Po
    Here he confirms the tradition that Rishis received the Vedas.

    SEKILAR- who compiled the history of 63 Siva Divotees "Nayanmars" tells:
    ELUTHATHA MARAI alitha Eluthuarium Perumane.

    Now let us see on Vedas in Sangam and Other Literautre.

    Tholkappiyam was first permoremed in presence of :

    " Arangarai Navin NANMARAI Murriya Athangottu Asan--- "


    1. Andra Kelvi adanghiya Kolgai
    NANMARAI Muthalvan Surram aga Purananooru 26:12,13

    2. NAN MARAI MUTHUNOOL Mukkan Selvan AagaNanooru 181:16

    3. Nandraintha NeenimirSADDAI
    Muthumuthalvan VaiPoga
    Thondru Purintha Veer Irandin
    Arunarnth Oru Muthunool Puram 166 :1-4

    4. Aaruari Anthanarku Arumarai Pala Pagarnthu Kalithogai 1:1

    5. Marai Navil Anthanar Noovalavum padume Puram 1:5,6

    6. Aaru Neriya Marai Valla Muniyagan

    7. Chathuram Marai than Thuthi Seithu Vangum -Sampanthar

    8. Thalaiana NAAL VETHAnthrithar Vazum... SAMPANTAR

    9. Aathianthanar aarinthu Parikoluva
    VethaMaPuun Vaiyater Vurnthu

    10: Amarar Penium Avuthi Arunthium
    Nalaanodu Pakadu Ombium
    NAANMARAION Pugal Padium Pattinapalai.

    11. Velpor Raman AARUMARAI kavitha
    Palveel Aalam Pol Agananooru 71

    12. Na al VethaNeri Paripadal 2

    13: .....................Yuba Nedunthun
    VethaVelvi Thozil Muththathuvum Puram 224

    I have compiled to an extent, still there are many left out, and kindly excuse me if any of my reference is mixed up or any mistakes are there.

    Now, Are this refers to the SANSKRIT or VadaMozhi or Vadasol or Ariya Vedas or any other, whar does the Renowned Tamil Scholar known for his Anti Brahmin and Anti- Sanskrit views Devaneyan-known as PAVANAR, after nerly 40 years of research says:

    " Nalvetham or Nanmarai, Arangam Agamam enbana ellam Arya Noolkale enbathum, Thirukural thavira ippothulla Pandai Noolkalellam Anthanar enbathum Brahmararie Kurikkum Enpathu Sariye."
    Page- 102 Tamilar Matham.

    "Samaskrithtil Thalai sirantha illakana Noolakia Paniniyam, Paniniyal BCE4m Noorandile eyarrpattathu. Ilakkana Noolai Viyakaranam enbar vadanoolar.Annoolirku mun ENN Ilakkana Noolkal Iyarrpattathuakach chollap padukindrthu. Avarrul Muthalathu Vetha Kalthathu enpadum Iyendiram"
    - Tamilar Varalaru Page 56,57.

    PAVANAR also in his book, Oppiyan Moli Nool, First Edition 1940, gives that as per Tholkappiyar, was as per Tamil Traditions Son of ThuraGakini Munivar, and in all his reference to Vada Sol and Being first played before Vedhic Scholar, and all of it confirms us that THOLKAPPIYAR WAS a Brahmin of Aryan Origin and in most of his books mentions this on Passing reference.


    Mr.F.S.Candhi first accepted then changed then accepted and kept on changing and then Questioned NanMarai may be Vadamozhi Vedas- but what about Arumarai(6Marai)? ,this Mr.Candhi repeated it several times and others drummed support include Uttappam, Masu, etc., an Mr.Solomon has not reponded also.

    Frinds- NanMarai is Four Vedas, but ARUMarai- is misunderstood, due to posting in English, the Tamil Words.

    Brahmins being called Aruthozhilar in Kural and Sangam is with "RU"
    big ru or Vallina Ru, meaning Six or 6, THE rA is like Aram of Anthanar Noorkum Arathirkum-Kural.

    But- AruMArai- Ru is small Ru or Idaiyina Ru, like Ra of Parappanar in Kural and Tholkappiyam, This AruMarai is not 6 Marai but- Special or Unique Marai- Vedas referring God Given as per Thestic Beliefs, of the Tamil Authors.

    mr..F.S.Candhi, seems to be completely ignorant of Original Litretaure and interpretting of words with this back ground that too aginst Concluded Historical views looks very odd. Others must also correct.

  7. #116
    Senior Member Senior Hubber Idiappam's Avatar
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    Early Tamil literature, talk about naanmarai, yes! But why the assumption that it refers to the Rig, Sama, Yajur and the Arthanvan vedas???

    The Names of the above 4 vedas occur in Tamil literature after the 13th centure - the Sivagnana botham!]

    The Tamil 'naanmarai' does not refer the to Sanskritic vedas!

  8. #117
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    Thank you Thiru Idiappam. You cannot expect fruitful answer from vedhic hypothesis (fraud) makers.

    Almost all the historiens have accepted that sinthu valley culture is Dravidian (Tamil) culture and there is no significance of Vedhic elements and this is registered in the Encyclopedia Britannica. Dr. Mathivanan’s decipherement is based on this. We need not consider Vedhic people fraud propoganda.

    Extracted from the Encyclopedia Britannica,2002

    Until the discovery of the Indus Valley Civilization in 1920, ancient India seemingly had two main scripts in which languages were written, Brahmi and Kharosti. The Brahmi script developed under Semitic influence around 7th c. BC, and was originally written from right to left. The Kharosti script came into being during the 5th c. BC in northwest India which was under Persian rule. Although the origin of the Brahmi script is uncertain, the Kharosti script is commonly accepted as a direct descendant from the Aramaic alphabet. The direction of writing in the Kharosti script is as in Aramaic, from right to left, and there is also a likeness of many signs having similar phonetic value.

    In the later centuries of its existence, Brahmi gave rise to eight varieties of scripts. Three of them - the early TAMILS and early Mauryas and the Sunga - became the prototypes of the scripts in northern & sounthern India in the 5th BC and AD. Out of these developed the Gupta writing which was employed from the 4th to the 6th c. AD.

    The Siddhamatrka script developed during the 6th c. AD from the western branch of the eastern Gupta character. The Siddhamatrka became the ancestor of the Nagari script which is used for Sanskrit today. The Nagari developed in the 7th to 9th c. AD, and has remained, since the 7th to 9th centuries, essentially unaltered.

    The earliest epigraphic evidence of TAMIL is seen in 500 BC of Brahmi script.

    The first epigraphic evidence of Sanskrit is seen in 150 AD and this inscription is in the Brahmi script.

    However, certain other factors need to be considered to get the complete picture of script development in India. In 1920 archaeologists announced the discovery of extensive urban ruins in the Indus Valley which pre-dated the earliest literary sources and which caused scholars working on ancient texts to re-examine their views on the different phases of Indian culture. These ancient dwellers in India were Dravidian, and in fact, their culture had developed a highly sophisticated way of life which compares favorably with that of contemporary urban civilizations in Egypt and Mesopotamia.

    The extensive excavations carried out at the two principal city sites, Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro, both situated in the Indus basin, indicates that this Dravidian culture was well established by about 2500 B.C., and subsequent discoveries have revealed that it covered most of the Lower Indus Valley. What we know of this ancient civilization is derived almost exclusively from archaeological data since every attempt to decipher the script used by these people has failed so far. Recent analyses of the order of the signs on the inscriptions have led several scholars to the view that the language is not of the Indo-European family, nor is it close to the Sumerians, Hurrians, or Elamite, nor can it be related to the structure of the Munda languages of modern India. If it is related to any modern language family it appears to be Dravidian akin to OLD TAMIL presently spoken throughout the southern part of the Indian Peninsula.

    What this points to is the existence of a system of writing far more ancient than what was originally considered. The influx of foreign invaders through the northwest over the centuries, forced the Dravidians, the original inhabitants of India, south. Scholars have indicated that the south has been the gateway for religious and cultural developments in India.

    The bibliographical evidences indicate that the Vedas are written in the Grantha scripts, and according to tradition Veda Vyasa, a Dravidian, compiled and wrote the Vedas. The Grantha script belongs to the southern group of scripts and Veda Vyasa being a Dravidian would certainly have used it. Since the earliest evidence for Grantha is only in the 5th c. AD, the Vedas were written rather late.

    Another important fact is brought out in the account of the religion, philosophy, literature, geography, chronology, astronomy, customs, laws and astrology of India about AD 1030 by Alberuni (edited by Dr. Edward C. Sachau). He states that,
    "The Indian scribes are careless, and do not take pains to produce correct and well-collated copies. In consequence, the highest results of the author's mental development are lost by their negligence, and his book becomes already in the first or second copy so full of faults, that the text appears as something entirely new, which neither a scholar nor one familiar with the subject, whether Hindu or Muslim, could any longer understand. It will sufficiently illustrate the matter if we tell the reader that we have sometimes written down a word from the mouth of Hindus, taking the greatest pains to fix its pronunciation, and that afterwards when we repeated it to them, they had great difficulty in recognising it."

    This is a clear opposite to Yuan Chwang's time in the 7th c AD, when this young Chinese Buddhist scholar came to India in search of authentic sacred books which he accomplished.

    However, scholars indicate that the same is not true with early TAMIL classics like the Sangam literature (3rd c. BC - 3rd c. AD) which are remarkably helpful in the reconstruction of history (K.K.Pillai, Tamil Literature as Source Material for History - Journal of Institute for Asian Studies).

    Dr.Calarnence Maloney says that Indians have sufficient proofs to claim Inthu valley civilization based on old tamil culture and there is no need to claim based on fraud vedhic claims. In a discussion in the newspaper ‘THE HINDU’ he expressed this. He also supports indigenous LIVING languages to be used for higher education.

    CLARENCE MALONEY

    Scholars who have devoted many years to the study of the Indus script mostly agree that all indications are that it was Dravidian-like. This is the conclusion of scholars in Finland, Russia, England, Czech Republic, the U.S., Pakistan and India. Some earlier ones, like Father Heras, and recently Finnish scholars, have spent decades studying the 600 script symbols, their possible grammatical positions, and the cultural associations. It is a minority of people who are themselves speakers of Indo-Aryan languages, who assert that the Indus people must have spoken a language like that of their own!

    Linguistic evidence

    The evidence that the Indus language was Dravidian-like, primarily tamil, is overwhelming, both circumstantial and linguistic. First, there are the Brahui people, over a million who live in east-central Baluchistan. This writer has looked into the matter himself while in Baluchistan; the language is certainly Dravidian at its core. How did it get there? Nobody has seriously suggested that the Brahuis moved there from peninsular India; rather Brahui language and culture got isolated in those hills while major changes took place in Sindh and Punjab plains.

    And we should note the place names of Dravidian origin over Pakistan and western and central India. Many place names have the ending aar (river), or include the words mala (mountain), kandh (hill), kotta (wall or fort), besides of course uur, pura and others. Rajaram would do well to study the Dravidian Etymological Dictionary which compiles the vocabularies of some 20 Dravidian languages, and note the geographic implications.

    The word uur (town) almost certainly goes back to the earliest civilisations in Mesopotamia — one of the numerous indications that the basic features of civilisation (i.e. urban life) in the Indus region diffused there from what are now Iraq and Iran. Probably Dravidian languages also had antecedents to some extent in those regions. This is the thesis of a book Dravidians and the West (Lahovery), and though it makes bolder assumptions than would be allowed by the strict procedures of many historical linguists, nevertheless it presents overwhelming suggestions. If it is accepted that the hundreds of native American languages branched off from three main stems (Greenberg), and if similar efforts showing that all the languages of North Asia and Europe could have branched off from a few prototype languages, then the above suggestions about the origin of Dravidian languages should also be accepted.

    Rajaram thought it was strange that the Indus people lost their script. There is nothing historically strange in that — the script was already weakened as the Indus Civilisation people established their many settlements in Gujarat about 2000 BC. But several of the symbols, such as swastika, fish and trident, were retained in culture and scratched onto pottery. It is absolutely clear (F. Southworth) that Marathi, though classified now as an Indo-Aryan language, is built on a Dravidian-underlying stratum. This is true to some extent for Gujarati and Sindhi also, and for that matter Punjabi and all western Indo-Aryan languages, which are universally acknowledged by historical linguists to have considerable Dravidian influence in phonetics, vocabulary and syntax.

    It is clear also that Dravidian languages diffused over much of Madhya Pradesh — there are the place names, besides many ("tribal") peoples who still speak Dravidian languages and whose historical traditions say they moved from western to central and east-central India. Dravidian languages diffused from Maharashtra through Karnataka and Tamil Nadu, while Telugu had branched off the language tree somewhat earlier.

    Language displacement

    It is nothing unusual in history that Indo-Aryan speech overwhelmed Dravidian in western South Asia. Such tendencies are everywhere. Semitic languages overwhelmed other language groups over much of the Near East about 2000 BC, but this doesn't mean that the pre-Semitic people were killed off; rather they were often absorbed into different political-economic systems. Semitic speech later overwhelmed Egypt, then most of North Africa, because it was thought to be the vehicle of advancement. This is the usual stuff of history.

    In Pakistan, the Burushaski language is related to none other, isolated in the high Hunza valley. It might be a relic of both pre-Dravidian and pre-Indo-Aryan speech in Punjab. The Dardic languages, including Kashmiri, are apparently descended from the first wave of Indo-European speech to enter South Asia, but these then got isolated in the Himalayas during the diffusion of Indo-Aryan. Indo-Aryan itself got overwhelmed in western Pakistan by the later arriving Persian-related languages such as Pashto and Baluchi. These changes may happen by invasion, but also by dribbles of more mobile or more politically powerful people moving in or by their cultures being considered so modernising that the existing inhabitants lose their language.

    A different language displacement was going on in eastern India. Underlying Bengali is a Munda-type language, of which Bengali today retains many linguistic and cultural evidences. There is absolutely no evidence that Dravidian speech underlies Bengali, Oriya, or Assamese (Grierson, writing on this a century ago, was wrong). The Munda languages (Mon-Khmer group) reflect diffusion of cultures from Southeast Asia thousands of years BC which had mastered horticulture (rice, bananas, turmeric, taro, etc.) and therefore enabled humans to proliferate and diffuse into eastern and central Ganga plains and east-central India — with all their cultigens — prior to the diffusion there of both Dravidian and Indo-Aryan.

    And in Southeast Asia, it was only a thousand or so years ago that Burmese, Thai and Lao languages from South China overwhelmed the Mon-Khmer languages in most of Myanmar, Thailand and Laos, not to speak of Vietnam where it happened in the south only a couple centuries ago. And before diffusion of the Mon-Khmer, the Malay languages had been more widespread. Most Southeast Asian people today accept that various underlying streams have formed their cultures and languages.

    So the people of India today should gladly acknowledge, as Witzel says, that Dravidian, Munda and Indo-Aryan if they are put in chronological order, are distinct underlying streams — and the 4th one is the Tibeto-Burmese stream in the north and east. Classical Indian Civilisation had creative achievements, which are remarkable enough, WITHOUT A BOGUS CLAIM that it is exclusively descended from the Indus Civilisation.

    The real issue

    The real issue now is not rewriting history, but how to reinvigorate Indian civilisational creativity in modern concepts. What is to be done about the fact that six Indian languages have more native speakers than French, but in these languages there is hardly anything produced that makes a worldwide mark in modern concepts and science.

    I want to emphasise that practically no people in world history have made a lasting civilisational mark using the language of a minority elite; either the language of the people develops as the vehicle of modernisation (like all of the languages of Europe when they threw off Latin, and like Korean in recent decades) or that language fades as a minority elite and then the bulk of the people adopt an outside language for modernisation.

    The people of India should have made the choice 50 years ago. A firm decision then should have been taken that the people's languages are the vehicles of modernisation, and to be used as the medium of modern education at all levels. Then all modern currents of thought, science, and creativity would flow through the whole population — as happens in all the European and East Asian languages today. The genius of civilisation would flow from the whole population, with far less class division.

    If the India wants to ensure that modern Indian civilisation is creative and dynamic, it will not be through historical debate. They should call for an immediate halt to English-medium education at all levels and the insidious class division it creates, and promote dynamic modern civilisational creativity in the Indian people's languages.

    f.s.gandhi
    "Kal thonri man thontra kalathay mun thonri mootha kudi"- a second century literature- means when before stone became sand in earth the tamil tribes were formulated

  9. #118
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    Hi..............ancheneya has said that 'arumarai' is actually idaiyina 'ru', is this correct? If it is, it invalidates much of the discussion on the arumarai, right?

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    We can find some treachery works in deciphering out the meaning of the words NaalVedham,Naanmarai & arumarai. Tholkappiam does not have these words. It tells about 'Maraimozhi'.

    Aruvi & Aaru has same root as 'Aru': No number in this.

    I put my query that Aaru marai because if number is there in Naanmarai, the possibility of 'Aaru' number is also there. There is no necessity to call arumarai anywhere and if we look into poetry atleast for the purpose of Ethukai & Monai also this arumarai is not used.

    If we read Naalmarai as Nalmarai and Naanmarai as Nanmarai it will have same meaning of Arumarai.

    I specified the phrase 'arumarai mantral enttanul'- about marriage of eight varieties are not available in Atharvana vedha rituals. At the sametime 'aruthozhil' of tamils are entirely different from six duties of sanskrit tradition and I have earlier showed this.

    A.P.Masilomani's query that there is no mentioning of rig,yasur,sama & Atharvana in any one of the tamil sankam literature.

    Thirukkural was called as 'Pothu marai'.

    The explanations given by "urai Aasiriyars" are doubtful because most of them are belonging to the timeline after 4rth century CE.
    Perhaps they take 'kuril' as 'nedil' to suit Vedhic tradition followed during that time.

    Tamils (Phd.s holders) should examine this aspect by once again going through the original manuscripts.

    f.s.gandhi
    "Kal thonri man thontra kalathay mun thonri mootha kudi"- a second century literature- means when before stone became sand in earth the tamil tribes were formulated

  11. #120
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    Tamil Siddhar tradition dates back to several centuries and all world civilizations took this knowledge. The Chinese connection shows 100 BCE for some siddhars and the knowledge prevailed during Tholkappiam and earlier.

    Vedhic tradition nowadays is identified and apprecieated mostly by Yoga and medittation. This was derived from tamil culture and world historiens have revealed this.

    Once again solomon has wishful selected quoting from Kamil Zvelbil.The credibility of this is doubtful since Kamil knows very well about tamil culture. The vedhic timeline in his passage is questionable because the language used in the decepherement shall not be sanskrit. B. B. Lal's deniel of tamil / dravidian elements in sinthu valley are meaningless and wrong.

    ALCHEMY AND THE TAMIL SIDDHARS by

    Dr.Joseph Caezza

    In the hungered New Age frenzy where the practice and principles of Ayurveda, traditional Hindu medicine, have become so well known, the West still remains largely ignorant of the South Indian Tamil Siddhar tradition. It represents a wonderful parallel to that of the Rosicrucian Alchemists. Just as the Rosicrucians claim lineage to the high culture of Ancient Egypt, itself only an artifact of "Atlantis", so too do Tamil Siddhars trace their original heritage to an advanced civilization destroyed by a great flood about 10,000 years ago. The lost continent supporting this heritage purportedly stretched from Madagascar to Australia with Sri Lanka constituting its central surviving land mass.

    Ancient Egyptian High Culture appears suddenly, even from the earliest times at a very advanced level. Examples of its elegance include high yield strains of grain, a precise calendrical system, refined medicine even featuring neurosurgery, but above all its complete system of hieroglyphic language which seems to serve a higher state of consciousness. These advances emerge suddenly from Neolithic chaos. So too, from earliest recorded history Tamil language appears as one of the most sophisticated literary systems on the face of this planet. This lack of developmental period suggests that both Tamil and Egyptian cultures were surviving artifacts, preserved by the greatest sages of highly advanced civilizations destroyed by geological cataclysm.

    The contemporary scholar, KAMIL ZVELEBILl, in THE SMILE OF MURUGAN, explains the necessity of understanding the siddhars, the primordial Tamil sages, before any deeper appreciation of South Indian civilization becomes possible. These spiritual giants composed the foundations of literary and scientific development. Yet because they wrote in obscure style so reminiscent of western alchemy and often ridiculed the orthodox caste system with its over-emphasis on ritual worship, the Siddhars have always moved on the outer perimeter of social acceptability. Their chief artifacts aside from a complete medical system include a vast body of esoteric literature as well as ever popular rustic poems and bardic songs.

    Zvelebil outlines the common features of siddhar poetry: "a protest, sometimes expressed in very strong terms, against the formalities of life and religion; rough handling of priests and Vedhics in general ; denial of the religious practices and beliefs of Vedhics and not only that: an opposition against the generally accepted pan Indian social doctrine and religious practice; protest against the abuses of temple rule; emphasis on the purity of character; claims made by the authors of these poems that they have achieved certain psychokinetic powers and other capabilities which belong to the sphere of parapsychological phenomena; use of imaginative and ambiguous language, rather puzzling though strongly colloquial; no systemic doctrinal exposition. Finally, all these poems are ascribed to a body of sages known as the siddhars (1)."

    Does this description recall the mood of the Rosicrucian manifestoes and the Alchemical literature of 17th century Europe during the age of Reformation against the corruption in the Roman Catholic Church?

    The Siddhars present themselves as the greatest masters of yoga, medicine and alchemy. Unlike their western counterparts who emphasized the transmutation of base metal into gold, the Tamil sages stressed the accomplishment of physical immortality or at least extended longevity as the ultimate token of self-realization Parallels exist in the western concept of the "glorified body". Just as in the west, these sages left a vast number of inscrutable texts accessible only to initiates. Their Hermetic emphasis on knowing reality directly by reading "the signatures of Nature", developing contemplative "seeing" as Castanada uses the term or cultivating, "the intelligence of the heart", as described by Schwaller de Lubicz, goes far beyond conventional understandings of Eastern meditation techniques. Such vision in ancient times served as the basis of a sacred science with bountiful practical applications.

    Patanjali, one of the greatest Tamil siddhars who accomplished himself at Rameswaram, explicated the essentials of mystic discipline, in his well known YOGA SUTRAS. Although postures, breath and contemplative techniques play a major role this tradition also includes the practical science of Nature; Cosmology, Astrology, Herbalism, Chemistry Alchemy and Medicine. While Ayurvedic medicine concerns itself generally with herbs and organic treatments the siddhars add strong emphasis on use of inorganic salts, metals and mineral poisons.

    Like the romantic notion of the Rosicrucians the siddhars are bound by an oath of secrecy. They wander anonymously practicing their yogic disciplines, doing service to their fellow men especially as dispensers of potent medicines. In the west sages such as Roger Bacon, Albertus Magnus and Basil Valantine acquired legendary status as alchemists. So too a rich tradition venerates the exploits of these Tamil mystics. Eighteen of the siddhars are venerated above others for accomplishing themselves to the highest level of perfection. The historic locations in India where they performed their penance today comprise spiritually charged centers of pilgrimage.

    The first and foremost of the siddhars, Agastyar, fits the image of his western counterpart, Toth-Hermes. Considered the founder of Tamil language and grammar, he presided over the first two sangams, ancient literary academies located on the now submerged continent south of Sri Lanka. He also appears as the primordial giver of arts and sciences. Innumerable classic works ascribe themselves to his authorship. Contemporary Tamil scholars assert that at least 26 classic authors wrote under this name. Who were they all aspiring to imitate? Folk tales abound in accounts of Agastyar's constant battles with local demons. He pops into the story line of classic epics, the Ramayana and Mahabharata, to bestow blessing and guidance. Tradition has it that Agastyar still lives in the Pothigai Hills below the Western Ghats, occasionally appearing to the sincere aspirant (2).

    Thirumoolar, another of the most renowned Tamil masters, accomplished his magnum opus of yogic reintegration at Chidambaram, the sacred spot where Shiva performs his cosmic dance. The chief contribution of Thirmoolar, the THIRMANDIRAM, an esoteric masterpiece of 3000 verses explains man's yogic path to immortal divinity, referring metaphorically to the philosopher's stone that transmutes base metal into gold. Here is the essential classic text of siddhar wisdom. Only in the recent past has this work been made available to the English reading public.
    Karuvoorar, an architect as well as a yogin-alchemist, played a major role in the design and construction of the Brihadeshwara Temple at Thanjavur. The feats involved in this task recall not only the emergence of the Gothic cathedrals which occurred at about the same time but also the construction of the pyramids. A popular tour guide describes this as one of India's greatest temples:
    "This superb and fascinating monument is one of only a handful in India with World Heritage listing and is worth a couple of visits. On top of the apex of the 63 meter high temple, a dome encloses an enormous Shiva Lingam. Constructed from a single piece of granite weighing an estimated 81 tonnes, the dome was hauled into place along a six-km earth work ramp in a manner similar to that used for the Egyptian Pyramids (3)."

    From a western perspective Bogar might be the most intriguing of the siddhars. Born into a family of gold smiths in central South-India, Bogar received initiation from the illustrious Natha Yogi, Kalangi. Contemplative insight allegedly guided Bogar to construct a primitive form of aircraft that he used in a journey to China. He is also credited with inventing a sea-going craft using a stream engine, preparing an indestructible statue of the god, Muruga, using nine poisonous herbs and minerals and making a major contribution to the siddhar medicine system which boasts possession of fabulous remedies that heal presently incurable diseases and make possible an extreme longevity. Bogar achieved the ultimate state of perfection at the hill top shrine of Palani where the statue he fabricated is still in use. Elaborate temple murals here chronicle his wondrous exploits.

    These claims seem somewhat reminiscent of the achievements of the contemporary western Hermetic master Schwaller de Lubicz, who in an attempt to free France from imported energy invented an engine fueled by vegetable oil. He designed following principles of number and harmonic proportion imbibed from contemplative vision a ship which possessed innovative properties of speed and balance in the roughest waters. He developed an airplane motor still used in France today. He also prepared Homeopathic medicines from plants and rediscovered the medieval alchemical procedure for producing the brilliant red and blue stained glass found in the windows of the Gothic Cathedrals. Evidence suggests that Scwaller was the original genius behind the Fulcanelli material, perhaps the most significant alchemical literature of the century. (see GNOSIS No. 7)

    A popular legend describes how Bogar made several missionary excursions into China. A master of astral projection and soul transmigration, Bogar entered the body of a recently deceased Chinese youth, revived it and grew to become the Chinese sage, Lao Tzu, author of the TAO TE CHING and founder of Taoism. Taoism has a rich alchemical faction devoted to physical longevity that lends credit to this bizarre tale. The TAO TE CHING embodies the same esoteric style that haunts the obscure language of the Tamil siddhars and echoes ideas from western alchemy. Any student of Taoist Yoga is shocked by the similarity of its techniques to those of the Tamil siddhars.

    Initially I could not accept the possibility that Bogar was Lao Tzu. During an extensive pilgrimage to the shrines of the siddhars in 1989 I encountered well educated residents of Palani who took it for granted that Bogar was indeed Tao Tzu. Finally, I found a pilgrimage guide book written in English, a rare commodity indeed in this off-the-beaten-track location. It described Palani's Hill temple to Lord Muruga and contained a brief monograph on Bogar identifying him as the Chinese sage, Lao Tzu.

    Bogar's monumental work of 7000 verses has recently been edited in Tamil by one of the great living apostles of this tradition, Yogi S.A. Ramaiah of Madras. Since 1954, Yogi Ramaiah has traveled the world, giving lectures, initiating students and building temples. An American center at Yuma, Arizona features a temple containing eighteen granite images dedicated to the greatest siddhars. He does not offer the customary guru-disciple relationship but rather teaches postures, breathing and contemplative techniques geared to give access to what Anthony Rooley described so wonderfully in the third issue of ALEXANDRIA as "The Invisible College", a higher inspired state of mind. Jean Dubuis, the contemporary French alchemist describes a vaguely similar practice as "night school". These concepts might be related to the medieval notion of "the communion of saints" not as blind faith but as actual guiding contemplative experience. Although mantras do play a role the actual advanced techniques taught by Yogi Ramaiah seem more in tune with the methods of western alchemy.

    Yogi Ramaiah has so far avoided becoming a personality cult by shifting attention to his own guru, "Babaji", the immortal Yogin made famous in Yogananda's AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF A YOGI . This shadowy character remains a premier figure among that semi-mythical category of perfected immortal saints which include personages like Harikhan Baba and Bagwan Lakulisa. These beings allegedly inhabit remote regions of the Himalayas, emerging on rare occasion to reveal the more esoteric levels of yogic attainment.

    In recent times "Babaji" has become a New Age band wagon that everyone delights to jump on, from Sondra Ray and Leonard Orr, the father of the rebirthing movement to Nina Hagen, the German Rock singer. Babaji's picture even appears on the album jacket of the Beatles, SERGENT PEPPERS LONELY HEARTS CLUB BAND. In the vast realm of human imagination, what myth could possibly be more attractive to the ego than that of physical immortality?
    Yogi Ramaiah offers the world a unique biography of this immortal saint. Babaji was born in 203 A.D. near the sanctuary of Chidambaram. At an early age he was kidnapped, sold into slavery and then purchased by a wealthy man who freed him. Babaji was thus absolved from the responsibilities of caste and family. He soon fell in with a group of advanced wandering sages who trained him in contemplative methods of self-realization. In his wanderings Babaji studied with Bogar at Katirgama in Sri Lanka and at Courtrallam with Agastyar. He finally achieved the highest yogic realization at Badrinath near the Himalayan boarder. Is there an echo here of the story of Christian Rosenkreutz who sets off as an orphaned youth on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land and falls into the company of mysterious adepts who train him in ultimate wisdom?

    A most intriguing enigma might arise from consideration of Babaji's yantra, a geometric device used along with mantra for invoking the master's grace and guidance. This yantra consists of a triangle situated in a square in turn circumscribed by a circle. It calls to mind a number of 17th century western alchemical diagrams. Notable examples include the final engraving from Heinrich Khunrath's AMPHITHEATRUM SAPIENTIAE AETERNAE (4), the seventh key of Basil Valantine's TWELVE KEYS and the Rosicrucian seal on the diploma presented to Dr. Bacstrom by a mysterious adept in 1794, published in Manly Hall's, ORDERS OF THE GREAT WORK-ALCHEMY(5). Stanislas Klassowski de Rolla explicates the meaning of Khunrath's emblem:
    "Syzygy or conjunction of the macrocosmic Unity with the microcosmic triunity. The entire process of the elaboration of the Philosopher's Stone is symbolized here ...(4)."
    The history of the Tamil siddhars has yet to be written. Their writings remain scattered waiting for the scholarly treatment they deserve. The task of separating the complex mythic and actual historic biographies of these sages recalls the difficulty associated with penetrating the wisdom of the western alchemical tradition. Scholars can argue even against the historical Jesus but in the end a good dream is more powerful than any historical reality. The perennial wisdom at the root of Rosicrucian alchemy or the Tamil siddhar tradition transcends time and space. It is an ever present guide leading any sincere aspirant into the immortal realm of imagination and its central diadem of self-luminous Gnosis. In the light of Gnosis all sages from every continent throughout history are forever united.

    REFERENCES
    1. Kamil Zvelebil, "The Cittar: An Enigma", chapter 14 of THE SMILE OF MURUGAN on TAMIL LITERATURE OF SOUTH INDIA (Leiden, Brill, 1973) p. 218
    2. Thiru N Kandaswamy Pillai, HISTORY OF SIDDHAR MEDICINE, (Madras, Manorama Press, Gov. of Tamil Nadu, 1979), p 254
    3. Hugh Finlay, editor INDIA, A TRAVEL SURVIVAL KIT (5th edition, Hong Kong, Lonely Planet, 1993), p. 1011
    4. Stanislas Klassowski de Rolla, THE GOLDEN GAME: ALCHEMICAL ENGRAVINGS OF THE SEVENTEENTH CENTURY, (New York, Braziller, 1988), p. 41
    5. Manly P. Hall, ORDERS OF THE GREAT WORK- ALCHEMY (Los Angeles, P.R.S., 1940) p. 34.

    Tamil were the foremost scientific knowledge creater in earth and their knowledge spread all over the world from civilizational period.
    Tamils antiquity stands first in the world.

    f.s.gandhi
    "Kal thonri man thontra kalathay mun thonri mootha kudi"- a second century literature- means when before stone became sand in earth the tamil tribes were formulated

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