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Thread: Is tamil derived from Sanskrit

  1. #41
    Senior Member Seasoned Hubber geno's Avatar
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    Thiru Nedunchezhiyan avargaLukkum , thiru A P MASILAMANI avargaLukkum - ennudaiya anbArntha vaNakkangaL!

    ungaL iruvarin karuththukkaLaip padippathil enammu mikuntha Arvamum, magizhchiyum uNdu!

    thodarnthu ungaLin arumaiyANa karuththuraikaLai thanthu en pOnRavarkaLai magizhviyungaL!

    A P Masilamani avargaLE!

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  3. #42
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    Thamizhanbar Geno avarkale! NanRi!

    I saw the matter. Sucessfully neutralised and "virus" contained. Will communicate shortly through p-em.

    UngaL Thamizanban Masilamani.

  4. #43
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    Continution; THE WORD 'AAYAM"

    Whilst dealing with gaming word : Aayam > uruLaayam, we saw that it derived from "aaithal".

    Aayam also had another meaning and this can be known from the Sangam Poet's name: "Mathurai Oolaikkadai kaNNam pukunthaar aayaththanaar" .

    Dr Vadivelan in his "Ilakkiya Varalaatruch ChinthanaikaL" (2003) p 45 proposes that Aayaththanaar could mean detective, as they too do "aaithal"= investigation.

    This meaning becomes more clear when you look at the phrase "KaNNam pukuntha" = kannakkool vaiththup pukuntha".

    KaNNam pukunthaar = thirudar. kannakool vaiththup pukunthavar.

    KaN (eye) > kaN+am = KaNNam [opening created by the thief like the eye (much bigger than the eye clearly ) ] on the wall kaNNam > KaNNam+ kool = kannakkool. Pl note N >n change in the word.

    Pl see PuRanaanuuRu stanza 350.

    Thiru Neduncheziyan avarkale! This additional research is for your pleasure as well as for other thamizanbarkaL.

  5. #44
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    Thiru. Nedunchezhiyan,

    //...after 'nayakkar kAlam' may have made him sang "Suntharath Thelunkil pAtisaippom..." etc. Then again he sang the song, "yAmarintha mozhikalil Thamizh mozhi pOl engkum kANOm...there are belifs that he was a drug 'addict' and so people say that if he was one then no one knows when he sang which one.//

    These words... sundharath thelunginil paattisaithu ... thONihaL Otti viLaiyaadi varuvOm..."

    Under which context it was so composed by BArathi, has to be perceived.During the dictatorial days of British- rule, BArathi was rarely a bold, broad-minded and multi- faceted Poet dealing on various Subjects viewing as Indian- Patriot, Tamilian, Devotee, Far- sighted Human and Social-Critic as well.

    This Poem he has presented under "DhEsiya gIthangaL". Those inexplicable dark days of about 70 years back, is still in my vivid memory... that this Book was strictly banned by the British rulers and if found in anybody's possession, he was imprisoned and tortured as anti- Government criminal as also severely punished as "dhrOhi" (Traitor)... and that how everyone in our family were constantly under the grip of Fear that at any moment we may be arrested by Police and put behind bars since my father had carefully kept the Book concealed, (buried within the Paddy- bag full of Paddy hidden in the Loft)....!!!

    This poem was composed exclusively to arouse the Indian Nationalist spirit amongst all the Indians of One Nation India comprising of various Linguistic and Cultural Regions in a Mosaic-pattern. The Voice behind is... "Even though we from different Regions of India, are far apart in some respects.. we live as brothers of ONE FAMILY... AS INDIAN by UNITY IN DIVERSITY... having ONE MOTHER for all of us, the "bAratha- mAthA" and each one of us are great in one or the other aspect, such that we all with the BROTHERLY-SPIRIT affectionately exchange amongst ourselves the best available stuff of the respective regions."

    Such a high-spirited Propaganda amongst all the Indian- Nationals, was very much imperative and direly unavoidable at that crucial juncture so as to counter the wicked "Divide and Rule" policy of the British- dictators while the Indians as a whole were enslaved by those Foreigners.

    We have to realise his high Intentions and appreciate the Rich SENSE OF ONENESS as "We the Indian National" as he meant by these words towards every Indian of the Motherland India. By analysing this Poem word by word we can feel the heated pulse of the High-hearted Voice behind.

    This poem starts with the words..."Sindhu nadhiyin misai..." Why should he take up Sind River for consideration here?... To mean... " Even though Sind River is far away from us the people of both the regions are ONE INDIAN. Thus the poet has taken up all the regions in different directions of India on different angles of worth and richness.

    "...Sundharath thelunginil paattisaiththu..." What does he mean? He says ..."Thamizh inidhu" (SWEET)... and thelugu is "sundhara" (Beautiful). Thus he has not under-rated his mother Tongue Thamizh... but optimistically and open- mindedly he praises the greatness of the other Indian Brothers too with a high humane-spirit... a true TAMILIAN SPIRIT of "yAdhum UrE, yAvarum kELir"

    Why he called the "Izha- nAdu"as "SingaLath-thIvu"?

    Primarily... to keep up to the poetical rhyme of "mOnai"... aligning with the words ... gangai- nadhipurathu, singa- marAttiyar, singaLath- thIvinukkOr, vangathin- mIdhil... etc.

    Secondly... to address the Sinhalese also as BROTHERS being the equally suppressed Indian of one Great India of those days... identifying their location, similar to the foreigners addressing all the people of India as "SINDHIAN", meaning the people of Sind-River!!!

    So the high spirit of "ONE UNITED INDIAN BROTHERHOOD" alone has to be understood here and nothing else to demean.

    It is not fair on our part to deem our MAHA-KAVI denigrative and parallel with any cheap Drug- addict.

    In all his angles of approach...

    ... OUR TAMILIAN MAHAKAVI BHAARATHI IS INDEED GREAT!!!.

  6. #45
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    Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

    paNivu.

    //Hmm, thiru Neduncheziyan avargale, true. Just for literary discussion: (which I think is no harm). But do you think Barathi can be excused for using the word because at the time//

    Of course he may not have understood or may not have known the difference for some various reason. Anyhow it doesn't explain everything. Then again lot of Eezha Thamizhars unfortunatley uses the term 'Indian' to refer to 'Thamizh Nadu' Thamizhars and yes this is a political bridge. Even those who are 'Thamizh patriotic' sometime are in the 'urge' to label Thamizh Nadu Thamizhars as 'Indians.' Yes Thamizh Nadu is currently under the power of "Indian Union."


    Thank you for explaining the word 'aaithal' again. It is very intersting to know that aayaththanaar could mean detective!

    Are there any evidence of the roots of 'numbers' in Thamizh? The numbers we Thamizhars use is called as "Indo-Arabic" numbers and you know how that name came. If you could share anything intersting about that then it would be great. Moreover, it would be intersting to know the root of 'ontru' 'irandu' etc. The suffixes of numbers.

    nanRi, paNivu
    Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

  7. #46
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    Thiru Srinivasan avargaLae!

    I appreciate your gratitude to Bharathiyar. I do not wish to make this Literature form into a 'political discussion. Not only that there is no need for such as I am sure that you are aware of many things going in South Asia. The present and the past... The (H)Indian Government involvement in Eezha Thamizhars to the understanding of how the 'Indian Union' was before the Independance etc.

    //broad-minded and multi- faceted Poet dealing on various Subjects viewing as Indian- Patriot, Tamilian, Devotee, Far- sighted Human and Social-Critic as well. //

    You may have a different view and I may have a different one Srinivasan AvargaLae. Nevertheless my understanding of Thamizh Patriotic pulavar never was "Indian-Patriotic" or something else. Thiruvalluvar created 'ulagap pothumarai.'

    Would Bharathiyar wanted his mother tonghue to be third level language in its own soil? How did the English which ruled 'India' became one of the two official language and Thamizh as an ancient language never gained respect.

    Lets say Thamizhans of Thamizh Nadu are "Indians." Tell me now why didn't the Indian Government do anything about 150 Thamizh Fisherman deaths by Sri Lankan Army and it condemned right away to the grenade attack in the bollywood program in Coloumbo? Do I see a discrimination? Do you Thiru Srinivas?

    //Indians of One Nation India comprising of various Linguistic and Cultural Regions in a Mosaic-pattern.//
    India had composed of many different countries before the arrival of Europeans. The British had captured these nations or defeated other Europeans and took control of these lands and combined all of them into one calling it as 'India (if they really did)' to ease the management of the colonies. "Not all communities have equal rights...in India"

    //"yAdhum UrE, yAvarum kELir" //
    Again this is also a good song relating to the understood facts about life. I think interm of Thamizh community view, Thamizhans have given up enough. Enough being so generous.
    "vaLainthu kodukka vAenum, aAnAl antha vaLaivAL muriyak kOodAthu."

    //Primarily... to keep up to the poetical rhyme of "mOnai"... aligning with the words ... gangai- nadhipurathu, singa- marAttiyar, singaLath- thIvinukkOr, vangathin- mIdhil... //

    Not necessarily, would it have hurt to say "Senthamizhth thIvinukkOr?" He could have added up another line to say about Singhalese if he had wanted to. Not only that a pulavar sing a song with meanings. Not like some guy who went to the Thamizh King and sang, "maNpuLu mApiLLai..." because his wife told him to go and make money, and he got saved by the Head pulavar, (not sure if it was Illango or Kampar).


    nanRi, paNivu

  8. #47
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    Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

    I have a question regarding the usage of Thamizh words by Thamizhars.

    We as humans all of us want to make things easy. When it comes to speaking, we all probably deserve things to be easier. Thamizh is a rich language but I am beginning to doubt that some "translated" words in 'SenThamizh' may not co-exist easily in Thamizhars tonghue for some reasons beyond the fact that these words are new.

    For Instance words like

    TholaipAesi (Telephone)
    TholaikkAtsi (T.V)
    PaErunththu (Bus)
    oLith thattu (CD)
    minnangal (E-mail)
    Inaiyath-thaLam (Internet)
    minnAeti (Lift; Elevator)

    Do you think that some consonants in these letters give hard time for some people to 'use' these handly or that they don't hear these words enough to use them?

    I believe that they have organized some kind of Organization to find equivalent new Thamizh vocabularies for any new terminologies etc.. in Thamizh Nadu

    The use of 'cel paesi' makes things easier for people than the long word 'cellidath tholaipaesi' or 'kaiyadakkath tholaipaesi' or 'kaith tholaipaesi.' What is your opinion Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae? Do you think we should start inventing new abbrieviations for these words like for 'TholaikkAtsi'...or is there one already?

    nanRi, paNivu Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

  9. #48
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    Is Tamil derived from Sanskrit?

    Thiru Neduncheziyan avarkale!!

    NanRi for your thoughts on the matter.

    As to using easy words and abbreviations:

    Very interesting researches have been done by other learned men, some of them archeologists. Over a few centuries around the dawn of the Christian era and even a little before the era, mainly in stone and pottery inscriptions, the mei ezuththu (consonants) were deliberately dropped. Then presently when they were found, the first lot of finders thought that they were not possibly Tamil words.
    It was perplexing them when one thoughtful archeologist/historian managed to decode it.

    KOvEnthan (kO+ vEnthan) > kOvEtha - the chief ruler, king..
    aLpathi (aL + pathi) > Apathi. a resident governor or ruler, usually under a higher ruler.

    Those days they had no sophisticated things like pens as today. When you put a dot (for consonant) on the palm leaf (Olai) it could be torn. The pottery could break during the inscribing. Stone could chip off.

    Sometimes, they wrote without the dot; at other times they eliminated the meiyezuththu completely.

    So, kOvEnthan when written in Tamil letters, read: kOvEnathan as there was no dot over the na.

    Or it could be : kOvetha (consonants eliminated).

    Another consideration was space. They did not have tons of paper or gigabyte computers.

    Sometimes it was discovered that entire words were omitted.

    Using the method, we can decode at least some words today.

    ka - (kathiravan malarvikkum) , mala - ( malar.)

    In the first instance. for two words, you have one letter only, ka.

    In the second instance, only the consonant "r" was dropped.


    Now read "kamala" and add suffix "am" = kamalam.

    Now read: vizu = siRantha, abbreviate to vi -
    malar , drop r, become mala, add am suffix vimalam.

    If you do not add suffix, they remain kamala and vimala > kamalA and vimalA as names. ]

    As more of these are discovered and explained, the evidence would get stronger.

    The epigraphists who decoded some of such words like kOvetha belong to the current millenium. So, we should not go back to professors who were guessing the words to be non-Tamil who lived 70 or 200 years ago when the inscriptions were hidden under the soil and they could have never even dreamt of them.

    chEran - just used “cha”. (not even chE). [ stone inscr. ]

    muththirai = 3 seas. thirai = alai. kadal.
    muththirayam = refers to a political control covering the 3 seas, an expanse of water where 3 seas meet.
    drop the “ya” becomes muththiram.

    sa+ muththiram – sEra nAttukku appAl uLLa kadal pakuthi, (Ocean). [ final construction and meaning]

    now, samuththiram = ocean.


    On the new words you pointed out, if everyone or majority agreed and followed, they could be abbreviated and used. New words in any language will always be difficult.

    Some new Malay and Indon terms are difficult to pronounce also.

    Persekutuan – Federation. (easy)
    Pentadbiran Bantuan dan Pemulihan Banga Bangsa Bersatu - UNESCO. (easy?) [ depends on how often you use the language.]

    stabit presumptio donec probetur in contrarium (Latin) . A legal presumption stands until the contrary is proved. Easy to pronounce?

    My Chinsese assistant who is typing this for me (because my Tamil asst is sick ) supplies you this:
    chin chaa poh kwong po thien taai! = singapore vaanoli.
    She says Chinese words are easy and good to pronounce.

    NiithO nEnu rAkalanu? (Telugu) = I will come with you.

    Hopefully we get over such difficulties as we become more familiar with these terms. Pronouncing difficulties are an international phenomenon.

    On numbers – Dr Mu Varatharaasanar says that the Indo –Euro numbers grew out of Tamil numerals. We will discuss this one day as soon as possible.

    We will meet again. [sl
    APMASILA

  10. #49
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    miKka makizhvu Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!!

    Samuththiram from 'cha'> 'sa' from Cheran and muththirai (mUkkadal) forming the Word! I was told that samuththiram wasn't Thamizh and 'perungkadal' means Ocean. I think the usage of the word 'thirai' is important in the formation of the word 'samuththiram' because it makes you picture what happen when 3 seas meet and the 'nurai' formed in the water body. Don't you think we should call the Indian Ocean as 'Samuththiram' after all the word it self derived from the word 'Cheran' and the word 'muththiram'? We could use 'perungkadal' for other oceans with their prefixes and perhaps make a new name accord with how many seas mix at a specific place. What do you think?

    Does the word 'muththirai' which mean 'three seas' does it have any connection with the word 'muththirai' (stamp?)...what is the root of the word Muththirai(stamp?)

    I think we need to grab hold of the way these words were formed and take advantage of this. It would have been great if Thamizhars had access to some pen or prints and computers. More like the saying,
    "kallaik kaNdAl nAyaik kANOm, nAyaik kaNdAl kallaik kANom."

    Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae, the 'Kampar' river in Indonesian Island (the one east of west Malysia; the big Island) does it denote to the Chozha Kalaththup Pulavar Kampar? Anyway I have heard that the word Kampar comes from the fact (kampu poEla uLLavar; someone who look like a stick) that his appearance was 'skinny.' Is that right?

    nanRi, paNivu Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

  11. #50
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    Is TAMIL derived from SANSKRIT?

    Quote : "Nedunchezhiyan"

    // ... 'Kampar' river in Indonesian Island (the one east of west Malysia; the big Island) does it denote to the Chozha Kalaththup Pulavar Kampar?//

    Yes, Because Raja Raja Chozhan captured many parts of the adjacent countries, like the so called Burma, Malaysia, Singapore, Andaman, Thailand etc. Eventually large groups of Tamilians were domiciled to these regions by that Chozha Emperor. Those days' Tamilians had strived hard to develop most of these lands into Cultivable Agricultural Lands which were lying either dry or dense forests or fallow fetching no life-worthy return to the people there till then. Thus the Tamilians had enriched these regions by their hard toil, several centuries back, prior to British occupation. While Andaman has become part of India, other parts of such Chozha's new acquisitions got merged with the newly formed Nations, but the ancient Tamilians were gratefully allowed to continue their settlement there. There are authentic Stone- inscriptions in each and every such regions in Tamil script relating to his period of reign of Chozha Emperor in these countries.

    The Original name of this country was "MALAAYAA"
    (Malai + Aayaa) , meaning "Mother Hill" in Tamil.

    The erst-settled ancient Tamilian people of the present Malaysia affectionately named their life- source as "Kambar River", in memory of the Chozha Kavi-chakravarthi.

    //... I have heard that the word Kampar comes from the fact (kampu poEla uLLavar; someone who look like a stick) that his appearance was 'skinny.' Is that right?//

    No. KAMBAN was named so by his parents because it is one of the names of God Narasimha, the Kula-Deywam of Kamba's ancestry. That is why the inauguration (Arangaetram) of his Tamil Ramayanam, was performed in front of Narasimha- Sannidhi within the Ranganatha Temple at Srirangam. At the same location, the Kambar Memorial Mandapam was erected by the Chozha Emperor, which is still existing.
    Most INVALUABLE TREASURE is.. Time.
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