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Thread: Is tamil derived from Sanskrit

  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by devapriya
    AGAIN you stand against SCIENCE. The Entire Root of SARASVATHI River has been Mapped and it dried by 1900 BCE and drying Process started by 2200BCE.

    Some scholars have identified the mythical River Saraswati, adverted to in the Rig Veda, with what is presently Afghanistan’s Helmand river but deny that it refers to Ghaggar river.. The Rig Veda, was said to have been composed there in 1700 BC or thereabouts. Others have pointed to a long line of sand in M&H region and think that it was the course of River Saraswathy. Satellite photographs of the sand line have been taken. It is guessed that this was the dried up Saraswathy. The Rig Vedas were allegedly compiled and reduced to writing nearly 2000 years later at the dawn of the Christian era. Only the satellite pictures were "scientific" but showing dried up sand course. Of course, surveyors can always draw a map of any of these areas. Upon review, one can easily see that there is nothing much scientific about the whole thing. There are also doubts as to the location of the river.
    B.I. Sivamaalaa (Ms)

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  3. #272
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    wait for the day

    Quote Originally Posted by devapriya
    Even if a Word appaears in Sangam it need not be Tamil as TholKappiyar clearly says-

    I say that a certain word is Tamil or not, by analysing the roots of the word. I have never depended on Sangam literature to prove my point. I do not refer to Sangam at all. Please go through all my posts. Can you point out one post in which I have said that it was used in sangam stanza and therefore it is a Tamil word!!

    You have been referring to the sangam works to prove the existence of brahmanas during that age.

    I want to tell you this: If a word is used in Rig Veda, it is not necessarily a Rigkrit word. According to "international scholars" (your terminology), there are MORE THAN 800 Tamil words in Rigkrit, a language which basically differs from latter-day Sans.

    Presently, some "international scholars" (your terminology again) who have made research on Rig have isolated areas in it which clearly reveal aspects of "archaic Tamil" (their terminology) with Akkadian influence. On this basis, they are saying that at least some of the rishis who sang certain hymns were Tamils. (Mind you these are not Tamils who are saying it ) When the scholars publish their works, you should be able to happily read them. Then you will find Maalaa proving her case without any effort beyond all reasonable doubt to your utter dismay and collapse!!
    B.I. Sivamaalaa (Ms)

  4. #273
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    Sarasvathi river

    Excerpts from "Is Indus valley the cradle or catacomb of the Dravidian civilization?" By: Na. Nandhivarman

    “It has often been suggested that this was the civilization of the Saraswati river, not the Indus. Vedic literature gives importance to a river known as the Saraswati which it said, flowed from north east towards the lower Indus Valley through what are now provinces of Haryana, North Rajasthan and Bahawalpur, and is identified by the mostly dry river bed that is known as Ghagger in India and further downstream in Pakistan, as the Hakra. It has been said that there are several relic mounds of the period (khalibangan for example) spread along the banks of the Saraswathi river system, more sites than the alluvial valley of the Indus. Thus it has been claimed that what we have here is saraswathi rather than Indus civilzation”

    This is the argument put forth by those who want to name it as Saraswathi civilization. Shareen Rat agar points out the difficulties in accepting this hypothesis. “ First fewer Harrappan sites lie along the banks of Ghaggar-Hakra than is made out. Second there is no proof at all that the mighty sarasvati of the Rigveda was in fact this (now dry) river- the identification is itself open to doubt. Third when active the Ghaggar-Hakra was in any case a tributary to the Indus. Last, the term Saraswati conjures up a kind of identity between the culture reflected in the Vedic literature and that excavated at harappan sites when, in fact there is hardly any correspondence. The label Saraswathi for all reasons, is difficult to defend on scholarly grounds “ (p7 Understanding Harappa Civilization in the Greater Indus Valley)

    Irfan habib says, “ The Indus basin includes the area along the Saraswathi, a small seasonal river, so that coupling of saraswathi with the Indus (Sindhu) has no geographical justification”
    Dr.R.Madhivanan says that his researches in Rajasthan and Gujarat revealed that the local people refer the dead and missing river as “Quari kanya “. Quari became Gowri in Sanskrit and in Punjabi the word Gaur added as suffix, are all derived from Kumari, and the Tamil settlers not forgetting their origin had named this river as Kumari Kanya, after Kanya kumari, and thereby the so called Saraswathi river’s name is Kanya Kumari river named from Tamil sources.. He also says in Saurastra, the Tamil settlers have named another river as Kaveri. He also says that if at all a mythical river Saraswathi had existed it flowed only in Afghanistan and not in India. The dreams of those who want to change the name of Indus into Saraswathi will receive the quake like hit and be smashed beyond redemption, putting an end to their futile exercise in renaming a globally known civilization.

  5. #274
    Senior Member Senior Hubber dsath's Avatar
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    The topic of Indus civilization is one close to my heart and i hope that someone breaks the code in my lifetime.

    One view that needs to be looked at new light with help of anthropology is the concept of cow work ship having its origin in Vedic culture.
    After viewing a TV series about a tribe in Ethiopia, i made some amateur research into the tribe as i found that Tamilians follow lots of rituals that were remarkably similar.
    One aspect of the tribe that astonished me was the way the cows were treated by the tribe. Cows blood was considered as a delicacy and was consumed by the tribes. But what was surprising was that they did not kill the cows, but took the blood out from the cow’s neck by making a hole with an arrow. After this they rubbed the neck and the blood stopped flowing.
    What really caught my attention was that slaughtering cows were considered a sin and cow's meat were never eaten.
    Also their wealth was measured by the number of cows they owned and the dowry was always paid as cows. I think this is similar to the concept of the Vedic people where cows were revered.
    But one major difference is that the Ethiopian tribes are black and resemble a lot like people from South TN.
    I hope someone takes this into account while accounting and makes a script comparison of the Suri tribe and Indus script and even Tamil. I am sure that this will not hit the brick wall. Has anybody here in the forum come across any research about this tribe?

  6. #275
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    Dear dsath,

    According to the most popular theory we all migrated from Africa. So we will be having some similarities.

    Dravidians do not worship cow but worship bull. The cow worship was brought about by the Aryans later though they used to eat cow initially.

    So, I don't see any major links between Ethiopian tribes and Dravidians.

  7. #276
    Senior Member Senior Hubber dsath's Avatar
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    Arul, abt the cow workship and Aryan link - it is the popular belief. After seeing the life’s of the Suri tribe i no longer accept this theory.
    There are lots of tribes all over Africa, but the Suri's way of life is remarkably similar (u have to see to believe) to the Tamil village way of life. I am convinced of a direct link.
    If the jinx of the Indus civilization is to be broken, we have to think out of the box. I think the regular line of accepted history doesn't hold water.

  8. #277
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    Dear Dsath,
    I don't buy your theory as well... I have given below an excerpts from the article PEOPLES AND LANGUAGES IN PRE-ISLAMIC INDUS VALLEY by --Dr. Tariq Rahman, Fulbright Visiting Fellow...

    Beginning from Sir John Marshall, who was the first to suggest that the language of the Indus Civilization was Dravidian 17, most scholars have taken the 'Dravidian hypothesis' seriously. Piero Meriggi, a scholar who contributed towards the decipherment of the Hittite hieroglyphs, opined that Brahvi, the Dravidian language spoken even now in part of Balochistan, must be the original Harappan language 18. However, Brahvi has changed so much and become so Balochified, as Elfenbein points out 19, that it cannot give clear evidence of any sort in this case. Another scholar, the Spanish Jesuit Henry Heras, 'turned more than 1,800 Indus texts into "Proto-Dravidian" sentences' 20 but his decipherment and linguistic theories were not accepted. Later Soviet scholars headed by Yurij V. Knorozov, carried on a very rigorous computer analysis of sign distribution in the Indus texts coming to the conclusion that it belonged to the Dravidian language family 21. However, Kamil Zvelebil, also a Russian scholar came to the conclusion that 'the Dravidian affinity of the Proto-Indian language remains only a very attractive and quite plausible hypothesis.22 Indeed, the plausibility of the hypothesis is such that many people, such as Iravatham Mahadevan, a scholar of old Tamil epigraphy, have used it to offer readings of the Indus script 23. F.C.Southworth and D.Mc Alpin used the Dravidian roots to reconstruct the language of the Indus Valley.24 Walter A. Fairservis, another specialist in this area, stated with considerable certainty that 'the Harappan language was basically an early Dravidian language'.25 Even Parpola, after much careful and detailed sifting of the evidence, opines 'that the Harappan language is most likely to have belonged to the Dravidian family'.26

    The following is the notes and references for the above article (exclusively for such doubters).


    1. Called 'Indus Valley' by John Marshall .ed., Mohenjodaro and the Indus Valley Civilization i-iii (London, 1931), and 'Harappan' by Stuart Piggott, Prehistoric India (London: Pelican Books, 1950), p. 132.

    2. John Marshall, Annual Report of the Archaelogical Survey of India 1923-24 (Calcutta: Superintendent of Govt. Printing, 1926), p. 47.

    3. Ibid, pp. 47-48. See E.J.H. Mackay, Further Excavations at Mohenjodaro i & ii (Delhi, 1936); Marshall op. cit. 1931; Also see M.S. Vats, Excavations at Harappa 2 vols. (Delhi, 1940).

    4. R.E.M. Wheeler, The Indus Civilization (Cambridge: Cambridge University press, 1968).

    5. B.B.Lal & B.K.Thapar, 'Excavations at Kalibangan', Cultural Forum (Jul 1967), p. 79. A.Ghosh, An Encyclopaedia of Indian Archaeology i-ii (New Delhi, 1989), pp. 94-95.

    6. H.D.Sankalia, Prehistory and Protohistory of India and Pakistan 2nd ed. (Poona, 1974), pp. 384-385. For a brief survey of the excavations see B.K.Thapar, 'Six Decades of Indus Studies'. In B.B.Lal & S.P. Gupta (eds). Frontiers of the Indus Civilization (New Delhi: Indian Archaeological Society, 1984), pp. 1-25.

    7. F.A.Khan, Excavations at Kot Diji (Karachi: Dept. of Archaeology, Govt. of Pakistan, 1965).

    8. M. Rafique Mughal, 'New Archaeological Evidence from Bahawalpur'. In A.H.Dani (ed), Indus Valley: New Perspectives (Islamabad: Quaid-i-Azam University, 1981), pp. 33-42.

    9. A.H.Dani, 'Excavations in the Gomal Valley', Ancient Pakistan Vol. V (1971), pp. 1-77.

    10. F.A.Durrani, 'Indus Civilization: Evidence West of Indus'. In Dani 1981, op. cit. ,pp. 133-137.

    11. Rafique Mughal, in Dani 1981, op. cit. p. 35.

    12. Asko Parpola, Deciphering the Indus Script (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1994), p. 21.

    13. F.A.Khan, 'Kot Diji Culture -- its Greatness.' In Dani 1981, p. 20.

    14. Durrani in Dani 1981, op. cit. p. 136.

    15. For a good concordance of the texts see Indus Corpus of Texts in the Indus Script (Helsinki: Dept. of Asian and African Studies, University of Helsinki, Research Reports, 1, 1979). Also see K. Koskenniemi, Materials for the Study of the Indus Script, 1: A Concordance to the Indus Inscriptions (Helsinki: AASF, B 185, 1973). Some of these pictographs are given by Rasheed Akhtar Nadvi, Pakistan Ka Qadeem Rasmul Khat Aur Zaban [Urdu: Pakistan's Ancient Script and Language] (Islamabad: National Institute of Historical and Cultural Research, 1995), pp. 52-153.

    16. Parpola, op. cit.

    17. J. Marshall, 'First Light on a Long-forgotten Civilization'. The Illustrated London News (20 Sept 1924). Reprinted L. Possehl (ed), Ancient Cities of the Indus (New Delhi, 1979), pp. 105-107.

    18. Piero Meriggi, 'Zur Indus-Scrift' [German: On the Indus Script] Zeitschrift der deutschen Morgenlandischen Gesselschaft 87; No. 12 (1934), pp. 198-241.

    19. J.H. Elfenbein, 'Baloci'. In Rudiger Schmitt (ed), Compendium Linguarum Iranicarium (Wiesbaden, 1989), pp. 350-362 (p. 360).

    20. Henry Heras, Studies in Proto-Indo-Mediterranean Culture, 1 (Bombay: Studies in Indian History of the Indian Historical Research Institute, St. Xavier's College, 1953), p. 59.

    21. Yu. V. Knorozov; M.F. Al' Bedil and B. Ya. Volchok, Proto-Indica: 1979. Report on the Investigation of the Proto-Indian Texts [English version] (Moscow, 1981).

    22. Kamil Zvelebil quoted from Parpola, op. cit. p. 60.

    23. Iravatham Mahadevan, 'Dravidian Models of Decipherment of the Indus Script: A Case Study', Tamil Civilization 4: 3-4; pp. 133-134.

    24. David W. Mc Alpin, Proto-Elamo-Dravidian: the Evidence and its Implications (Philadelphia: Transactions of the American Philosophical Society, 1981); F.C. Southworth, 'The Reconstruction of Prehistoric South Asia Language Contact'. In E.H. Benedict (ed), The Uses of Linguistics (New York: The New York Academy of Sciences, Annals 583, 1990).

    25. Walter A. Fairservis, The Harappan Civilization and Its Writing: A Model for the Decipherment of the Indus Script (New Delhi, 1992).

    26. Parpola, op. cit., p. 174.

    27. Ainul Haq Faridkoti, Urdu Zaban ki Qadeem Tareekh [Urdu; The History of Ancient Urdu] (Lahore, 1972); Also see Faridkoti, Pre-Aryan Origins of the Pakistani Languages: A Monograph (Lahore: Orient Research Centre, 1992).

    28. Tariq Rahman, Pakistani English (Islamabad: National Institute of Pakistan Studies, 1991).

    29. Bertil Tikkanen, 'On Burushaski and Other Ancient Substrata in North Western South Asia', Studia Orientalia [Helsinki] 64, pp. 303-325.

    30. For a linguistic explanation see Tariq Rahman, 'Pakistani English: Some Phonological and Phonetic Features', World Englishes Vol. 10: No. 1 (1991), pp. 83-95.

    31. Allchin, Bridget & Allchin, Raymond, The Rise of Civilization in India and Pakistan (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1982), pp. 301-303.

    32. Parpola, op. cit., p. 168. Also see T. Burrow, The Sanskrit Language (London: Faber & Faber, 1973), p. 386.

    33. Burrow, ibid, p. 386.

    34. Parpola, op. cit., p. 24 & p. 26.

    35. A.C.Woolner, 'The Rigveda and the Punjab'. In J.Bloch; J.Charpentier and R.L.Turner (eds), Indian Studies: Volume in Honour of Edward James Rapson (Delhi: Sri Satgura Publications, 1931), pp. 549-554.

    36. Esa Itkonen, Universal History of Linguistics: India, China, Arabia, Europe (Amsterdam/ Philadelphia: John Benjamins Publishing Company, 1991), p. 6.

    37. V.S.Agrawala, India as Known to Panini: A Study of the Cultural Material in the Ashtadhyayi (Lucknow: University of Lucknow, 1953), p. 37.

    38. Itkonen, op. cit. p. 12.

    39. J.F.Stall (ed),A Reader on the Sanskrit Grammarians (Cambridge, MA: The MIT Press, 1972), pp. 11-17.

    40. Itkonen, op. cit, p. 12.

    41. Hans Henrik Hock, 'A Critical Examination of some Early Sanskrit Passages Alleged to Indicate Dialectical Diversity'. In Bela Brogyanyi & Reiner Lipp (eds), Comparative-Historical Linguistics: Indo-European and Finno-Ugric (Amsterdam/ Philadelphia: John Benjamins Publishing Company, 1993), p. 217.

    42. Stall, op. cit., pp. 11-17.

    43. Sumitra Mangesh Katre, Prakrit Languages and Their Contribution to Indian Culture (Poona: Deccan College, Post-Graduate and Research Institute, 1964), p. 2.

    44. George Grierson, Linguistic Survey of India Vol.1, Part. 1: Introductory Ist ed. 1927 (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidas, 1967), pp. 121-126.

    45. A.H.Dani, The Historic City of Taxila (Paris: UNESCO, 1986), pp. 38-39. Taxila was excavated by Sir John Marshall. See his Excavations at Taxila: The Stupas and Monastries at Jaulian (New Delhi: Memoirs of the Archaeological Survey of India, No. 7; 1921).

    46. Ibid, p. 35.

    47. Yu. V.Gankovsky, The Peoples of Pakistan: An Ethnic History .Trans. from the Russian by Igor Gavrilov (Lahore: Peoples' Publishing House, 1964), p. 54.

    48. S.Konow, 'Note on the Ancient North-Western Prakrit', Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies Vol. VIII: Pts. 2-3 (1936), pp. 503-612.

    49. Gankovsky, op. cit., p. 58.

    50. Katre, op. cit. , p. 33.

    51. C.C.Das Gupta, The Development of Kharoshthi Script (Calcutta: Firma K.L.Mukhopadhyay, 1958), p. 33.

    52. G. Pugliese Carratelli & G.Garbini, A Bilingual Graeco-Armaic Edict of Asoka (Roma: Instituto Italiano per il Medio ed estremo Oriente, 1964), p. 12.

    53. Giovanni Garbini, 'The Armaic Section of the Kandahar inscription', ibid, p.61.

    54. Gankovsky, op. cit., p. 70.

    55. A.H.Dani, Kharoshthi Primer (Lahore: Lahore Museum, 1979).

    56. D.C.Sirkar, Inscriptions of Asoka (New Delhi: Ministry of Information & Broadcasting, Govt. of India, 1957. Rev. ed. , 1967), p. 29.

    57. Gupta, Kharoshthi op. cit. p. v.

    58. George Woodcock, The Greeks in India (London: Faber & Faber, 1966), p. 23.

    59. Agrawala, Panini op. cit. ,p. 466.

    60. Woodcock, op. cit. , p. 97.

    61. Ibid, p. 107.

    62. Ibid, p. 88.

    63. Ibid, p. 130.

    64. Sudhakar Chattopadhyaya, The Sakas in India (Santiniketan, Visva Bharati, 1955. 2nd. ed. 1967), p. 8 & p. 31.

    65. Ibid, p. 72.

    66. Woodcock, op. cit. p. 144.

    67. Chattopadhyaya, op. cit., p. 87.

    68. Ibid, p. 70.

    69. ibid, pp. 70-72.

    70. Dani, Taxila, op. cit. pp. 74-75.

    71. Samuel Beal, Si-Yu-Ki: Buddhist Records of the Western World, Translated from the Chinese of Hiuen Tsiang (A.D. 629) (1884. Repr. 2 vols. in 1; Delhi: Munshiram Manoharlal, 1969), p. C.

    72. Sung Yun calls the king 'Lae-Lih and says he 'loved to worship demons', Ibid, p. C. Dani identifies him with Mihirakula who worshipped Siva in his book Taxila, p. 76.

    73. Dani, Taxila, p. 78.

    74. Chach Nama: Tarikh-i Hind wa Sind Eng. trans. Elliot, H.M & Dowson, J. , The History of India as Told by Its Own Historians: The Muhammadan Period Vol. 1 (London: Trubner & Co., 1867. New York: Ams Press, Inc, 1966), pp. 138-211.

    75. See Elliot & Dowson, Vol. 2. Also see Al-Badaoni, Muntakhab-ut-Tawarikh .trans. from Persian by George Ranking. Vol. 1 (Delhi: Dairah-i-Adabiyat-i-Dilli, 1898. Repr. 1973). Also see Mohammad Qasim Firishta, Tarikh-e-Firishta .trans. from Persian to Urdu by Abdul Hai Khwaja (Lahore: Sheikh Ghulam Ali & Sons, n.d).

    76. B.D.Mirchandani, 'Ancient Sindhu and Sauvira', Glimpses of Ancient Sind: A Collection of Historical Papers (Bombay: S.M.Gulrajans, n.d), p. 31. Also see D.C.Sircar, Cosmography and Geography in early Indian Literature (Calcutta: Indian Studies, 1967), pp. 73-74.

    77. A.H.Dani, 'Sindhu-Sauvira: A Glimpse Into the early History of Sind'. In Hameeda Khuhro (ed), Sind Through the Centuries (Karachi: Oxford Univesity Press, 1981), pp. 35-42.

    78. Ali A.Jafarey, 'Sindh and the Sindhis in the Early Aryan Age'. In Khuhro, ibid, pp. 64-70.

    79. Ibn Khurdaba, Kitabul Masalik wa-l Mamalik; Al-Masudi, Muruj ul Zahab in Elliot & Dowson, Vol. 1, p. 14 & p.19.

    80. Rashid ud Din, Jami ut Tawarikh in ibid, p. 45.

    81. Beal, op. cit. p. 117; pp. 136-137 & p. 143.

    82. H.C.Ray, The Dynastic History of Northern India (Early Medieval Period) (New Delhi: Munshiram Manoharlal, 1931-36. 2nd. ed. 1973), Vol. 1, p. 84.

    83. Ibid, p. 180.

    84. Al-Badaoni, op. cit. p. 26.

    85. Ibid, pp. 51-55.

    86. Ibid, p. 95.

    87. Ibid, p. 95, f.n. 6.

    88. E.M.Reinaud in Elliot & Dowson, Vol. 1, op. cit. p. 100.

    89. Al-Masudi, Murujul Zahab in ibid, p. 24

    90. Ibn Haukal, Ishkalu-l Bilad or the Kitabu-l Masalik wa-l Mamalik in ibid, p. 39.

    91. Grierson, ibid, p. 125.

    92. Ibid, p. 125.

    93. ibid, p. 125.

    94. R.L.Turner, 'The Sindhi Recursives' Bulletin of the school of Oriental and African Studies Vol. III; Part II (1924), pp. 301-315 (p. 315)..

    95. John G. Bordie, 'An Inquiry into the Glotto-Chronology of Sindhi Phonology'. In Khuhro, op. cit. pp. 270-280 (p. 277).

    96. Grierson, op. cit. p. 126.

    97. Ibid, p. 1. Abul Fazal, Ain-e-Akbari [Urdu] trans. from the Persian by Fida Ali. Vol. 1, Part 2 (Lahore: Sang-e-Meel, n.d), pp. 1036-1037.

    98. Gankovsky, op. cit. p. 130.

    99. Ibn Hauqal, Kitab al-Musalik wal Mamalik. In Elliot & Dowson Vol. 1, op. cit. p. 32-33.

    100. Gankovsky, op. cit. p. 147.

  9. #278
    Senior Member Devoted Hubber sundararaj's Avatar
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    Very extensive thread. Needs thorough concentration. Thanks for all the contributors. Very informative one.
    Liberty is my religion. Liberty of hand and brain -- of thought and labor. Liberty is the blossom and fruit of justice -- the perfume of mercy. Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy.

  10. #279
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    thanks for this review! you may follow and read the whole history of the basketball!

  11. #280
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    I don't actually think Tamil derived from Sanskrit. Moreover, there many people see the promotion of the language as a move by Hindu nationalist groups.

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