Is tamil derived from Sanskrit

[Sudhaama]

Can anyone explain me the roots of the word Oor(place). I find many North Indian places named as Oor like Jaipur. Does this mean the Tamils were there in North India originally?

The Tamil-word..OOR ...rather the common-word for all the Dravidian- Languages...

...is different from the North-Indian ..PUR... and not emanated from Tamil.

Originally these names of the Places were of Sanskrit... as NAGAPURI, KARNAPURI, JAYAPURI, SIRAPURI, NAYANAPURI and the like.

Suibsequently when a new Language HINDI emanated as the Offshoot of Sanskrit...

... along with the admixture of alien Languages like Arab, Hebrew, Persian, Portugese etc....

...Nagapuri became NAGPUR.. .Karnapuri- KANPUR... Jayapuri-JAIPUR... Sirapuri-SIRPUR... Nayanapuri-NAINPUR and the like.. in Hindi pronunciation..

'PURI' in Sanskrit means OOR in Tamil.

But on your another Question... my Answer is...

Yes. Tamils rather Tamilians named DRAVIDIANS... were from North-Indian regions only... as the PRIME-HUMAN Generation on Earth..

... who expanded their Kingdom to South-India ..occupying different Sub-regions within

You can note... during Mahabharatha and Ramayana periods... the whole of South India was of dense fertile forests....

...with NO MANKIND at all ..Not even Tribals or Savages...except Monkeys as the Rulers.

At such times of pre-Historic days... Tamilians were inhabited spread over in North India.

Because they were MIGRATORY by natural attitude...being DYNAMIC AND ACTIVE constantly towards Advancement in Life...

...they were named by the then Sanskrit-patroniser- Kings.. as DRAVIDA in Sanskrit...meaning WAGABOND....

DRU = Move... as in Dravyam = Money , since it moves from hand to hand.

We can find several Tamil-words in Hindi, Bengali, Marathi etc, no doubt.... but not this word...OOR..

[mugil123123]

I am posting the Hindu link now

"Discovery of a century" in Tamil Nadu

http://www.hindu.com/2006/05/01/stor...0112670100.htm

T.S. Subramanian

Stone axe with Indus Valley script found near Mayiladuthurai

CHENNAI: A Neolithic stone celt with the Indus Valley script has been discovered by a school teacher, V. Shanmuganathan, in a village called Sembian-Kandiyur near Mayiladuthurai in Nagapattinam district, Tamil Nadu. The celt, a polished hand-held stone axe, has four Indus Valley signs on it. The artefact with the script can be as old as 1500 B.C., that is, 3,500 years old. The four signs were identified by epigraphists of the Tamil Nadu Department of Archaeology, according to its Special Commissioner, T. S. Sridhar.

Iravatham Mahadevan, one of the world's foremost experts on the Indus script, called the find "the greatest archaeological discovery of a century in Tamil Nadu." The discovery proved that the Indus script had reached Tamil Nadu. He estimated the date of the artefact with the script to be around 1500 B.C. "I have cautiously and conservatively put it between 2000 B.C. and 1500 B.C.," Mr. Mahadevan said. It was in the classical Indus script. He ruled out the possibility of the celt coming from North India because "the material of this stone is clearly of peninsular origin."

Harappa and Mohenjo-daro, where hundreds of seals with the Indus script were discovered, are in present-day Pakistan. Neolithic means New Stone Age and it is datable in India between 2000 B.C. and 1000 B.C.

According to Mr. Mahadevan, the first sign on the celt depicted a skeletal body with ribs. The figure is seated on his haunches, body bent and contracted, with lower limbs folded and knees drawn up. The second sign showed a jar. Hundreds of this pair have been found on seals and sealings at Harappa. Mr Mahadevan read the first sign as "muruku" and the second sign as "an." In other words, it is "Murukan." The earliest references in Old Tamil poetry portrayed him as a "wrathful killer," indicating his prowess as a war god and hunter. The third sign looked like a trident and the fourth like a crescent with a loop in the middle.

Mr. Mahadevan commented that the latest discovery was very strong evidence that the Neolithic people of Tamil Nadu and the Indus Valley people "shared the same language, which can only be Dravidian and not Indo-Aryan." He added that before this discovery, the southernmost occurrence of the Indus script was at Daimabad, Maharashtra on the Pravara River in the Godavari Valley.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Thanks Mr. Mugil123123.

But why the scholars always try to establish that civilizational movement happened from North to South - that too without any proof-I don't know. In my various postings I insist on civilizational flow from south to North. Sinthu Valley script is nothing but tamil and It happened to flow from South to North.

This message further conforms
Kumari kandam concept.

f.s.gandhi

[devapriya]

Friends,

Iravadam Mahadevan's total views are Todays Tamil tradition has not saved the Saraswathi River Civilisation, and Dravidian of today has nothing to do with Indus.

Tamil Vuirmei Letters are arranged in the same order as Sanskrit and adding all additional different letters in the end as shown by Caldwell.

Tamil Vowels Vyir ezuthu writing Practised till 19th Cen, and Tholkappiyar Ezuthuathikaram confirms that Sanskrit was the base of Brahmi Scripts and Tholkappiyar used Sanskrit writings.

Devapriya

[arul_satish]

Thanks Sudhaam for your posting on my question.

[Sudhaama]

Friends,

Iravadam Mahadevan's total views are Todays Tamil tradition has not saved the Saraswathi River Civilisation, and Dravidian of today has nothing to do with Indus.

Tamil Vuirmei Letters are arranged in the same order as Sanskrit and adding all additional different letters in the end as shown by Caldwell.

Tamil Vowels Vyir ezuthu writing Practised till 19th Cen, and Tholkappiyar Ezuthuathikaram confirms that Sanskrit was the base of Brahmi Scripts and Tholkappiyar used Sanskrit writings.

Devapriya

Tamil was only a Spoken-Language with no dialect of its own... for several centuries, as asserted by several Researchers including Caldwell and Harts.

The Origin of Tamil Letters was called "VATTEZHUTHTHU"... mostly in circular shapes... similar to Oriya...

...which has developed and improved by stage ofter stage, in course of time.

Saraswathi Mahal library at Thanjaavoor... is preserving the authentic Palm-leave records on this factor... in an appreciable manner, even now.

Whereas the origin of Sanskrit letters is the BRAHMI script...which is far different from VATTEZHUTHTHU... we can easily identify and discern.

In Sindu valley researches at Mohanjadaro and Harappa... what we have conscpicously discovered is...

...only Seals... mostly of such VATTEZHUTHTHU... or Fish of different species,... Circle with a Central dot ...Mudhu-makkalh thaazhi... etc...

....Based on which German and French Historians vastly differ with the British....

... and categorically justify that they are of Dravidian relevance only and exclusively.

Brahmi script came into existence after several centuries of Vattezhuththu....which has been found all over India including Northern parts....

...whereas we don't find Brahmi anywhere in South India.... which fact itself must be enough to prove that Tamil is earlier than Sanskrit.

Besides...the meaning of the word ...SANSKRIT means ...REFINED DEED. ...

...Sans= Refined / Reformed / Improved.... Deed or Outcome or Result.

So the question arises.... Reformed from what? Then there must have been something earlier, over which Sanskrit was improved upon or developed into.

What was that another Language?...Tamil?... Or Prakrit? Or Pali?

PRAKRIT means...Ancient-Deed... Pra= Pracheena = Ancient; Krit = Deed

Prakrit which was sparcely in vogue...Not so rich ......not possessing a strong Grammar...

.. unlike Sanskrit and Tamil... cannot be claimed to be of earlier existence prior to Tamil.

Pali... is not accepted as Prior one to Sanskrit... by one and all.

No doubt NEITHER TAMIL HAS EMANATED FROM SANSKRIT... NOR VICE-VERSA....

Both Sanskrit and Tamil are INDEPENDANT CLASSICAL LANGUAGES

...originated from Greater India, so called Bharath.

Since the modern world were mostly under the British rule, for several centuries...

....many unfounded false stories...SUITING TO THEIR STRATEGIC CONVENIENCE...

...had been forcibly thrust into the Tender brains of the major part of the Global Society....

...inculcating a NATIONAL-DIVIDE SPIRIT of Arya and Dravida...

...a POISONOUS FEED.. in all the Spheres including the Languistics too.!

... which DETRIMENTAL AND SUICIDAL TENDENCIES...killing the Social-Unity...

...some Indians are still CARRYING FORWARD AS TRUE !!!. PITIABLE.!!!

Undoubtedly ...TAMIL is the EARLIEST CLASSICAL-LANGUAGE OF THE GLOBAL MANKIND.!!!...

...Originated from Greater-India... so called Bharatha-Kandam.

[thamizhvaanan]

Tamil was only a Spoken-Language with no dialect of its own... for several centuries, as asserted by several Researchers including Caldwell and Harts.

The Origin of Tamil Letters was called "VATTEZHUTHTHU"... mostly in circular shapes... similar to Oriya...

...which has developed and improved by stage ofter stage, in course of time.

Saraswathi Mahal library at Thanjaavoor... is preserving the authentic Palm-leave records on this factor... in an appreciable manner, even now.

I agree with u but some reservations. U said Tamil is spoken-only with no dialect! was that a mistake? u mean to say it didn have script right?

even with that i have some questions. If Tamil didn have a script how was its literature passed on from generations. Sanskrit sure survived without script for centuries. But was the case similar for Tamil too!

Or do u mean that Tamil used vattteluthu, but it was not a script of its own. If so, why do you say so?

[Sudhaama]

Tamil was only a Spoken-Language with no dialect of its own... for several centuries, as asserted by several Researchers including Caldwell and Harts.

The Origin of Tamil Letters was called "VATTEZHUTHTHU"... mostly in circular shapes... similar to Oriya...

...which has developed and improved by stage ofter stage, in course of time.

Saraswathi Mahal library at Thanjaavoor... is preserving the authentic Palm-leave records on this factor... in an appreciable manner, even now.

I agree with u but some reservations. U said Tamil is spoken-only with no dialect! was that a mistake? u mean to say it didn have script right?

even with that i have some questions. If Tamil didn have a script how was its literature passed on from generations. Sanskrit sure survived without script for centuries. But was the case similar for Tamil too!

Or do u mean that Tamil used vattteluthu, but it was not a script of its own. If so, why do you say so?

Not only the case of Tamil...Invariably each and every Language in the world...

...has developed after its Spoken-form only... including Sanskrit, Latin, Greek and the like.

Even now there are some Languages having no SCRIPT of its own... but only borrowed from that of another Language..

For example,.. BADAGA written in Tamil Script ...TULU in Kannada ...PHILLIPPINO of Phillippines written in English Capital Letters now-a-days.

My point is only to compare the possible earliest introduction amongst both the..

...Brahmi ... the Origin of Sanskrit Letters..... and..

... Vattezhuththu ..the Origin of Tamil-script...in the Common Society.

...Origins of THE TWO GREAT CLASSICAL LANGUAGES OF INDIA... Tamil and Sanskrit.

Both... INDEPENDANT AND RICH ENOUGH ....on their own.

[thamizhvaanan]

oh nice point, i wasnt contemplating on that though! I assume u made a mistake in saying Tamil didn have a dialect, I assume u meant script there. That was my point.

U did mention that sanskrit was christend as such because it was a refinement of an earlier language. A somewat similar reasoning was made to naming of tamil by pavanar. He said, Tamils didn bother to have a name for their language in the beginning, bcoz they werent aware of the existence of any other language. But as they came into contact with outsiders, they felt the necessity for a name, and named their country Tham + Il - thamil. the name of the country was later shared by the language and people also. This was his pt. of view on the origin of the name "Tamil".

Anyway, which of these works came first? panini's grammar text or tholkappiyam? I heard both are similar in their structure!

[devapriya]

Dear Sudhamaji, and Friends,

As for as Indus is stilll Undechiphered, what Scholars say it is that thier way of Dechiphering rules out Strict DISCIPLINED Classical Sanskrit, but all attempts of Reading as Tamil and Proto Dravidian as failed similarly.

Vedic Sanscrit or Rigrit is dated to 5000-1000BCE, and Classical Sanskrit and Prakrits to 1000BCE.

Prakrit has left out additional Sha-Ja -Sa etc., specific to Sanskrit and to say Prakrit was refined to Sanskrit is meaningless.

Tamil vowel writing method was developed predominantly from Brahmi and Tholkappiyam's major source is Brahmi, is the Opinion of Scholars to who analysed.

Morethan 61 Stone Inscriptions of Brahmi have been found in Tamilnadu. Silapathikaram talks of KanEzuthu and Kolezuthu.

Vattaezuthu is one of the developments of Brahmi.

Sudahamaaji, you are right when you say Literature was passed on from Generation to Generation by Heart which is confirmed with Mainly Poetic Literature till 17th Century all over the World.

Oldest Manuscripts in Sarswathi Mahal dates only from 17th Cen.

Vedic Verses say clearly that there was writing, but many not be popular.

By Calling Classical Sanskrit as late we Ignore its basics.

Tamil Literarature starts only from BCE 200 and Tholkappiyam 100CE.
I accept both are Greatest Contirbutions by India to World.

Devapriya.