Is tamil derived from Sanskrit

[mahadevan]

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCJAPAN/LANGUAGE.HTM

Japanese was originally a language related to Tibetan or a language related to Tamil that was introduced into Japan during the great migrations of Southeast Asian peoples four or five thousand years ago. This language combined with, you guessed it, an Altaic and an Austronesian language to form the contemporary language.

[mahadevan]

Proto-World Language

In 1786, Sir William Jones proposed classifying Sanskrit, Latin, Greek, Germanic, Persian, and Celtic into a single language family that had come from a common origin, now known as Proto-Indo-European. Since then, many more language families have been identified and studied, and ancestral proto-languages reconstructed. Many linguists have been investigating deep relationships that link known families into macrofamilies. For example, Nostratic links Indo-European with Uralic, Altaic, Dravidian, Afro-Asiatic, and Kartvelian. Ultimately, all human languages could conceivably be traced back to a single origin, and this has been seriously proposed. The hypothesis is called Proto-World.

"A basic tenet of Nostratics is that Western comparative linguists, in classifying the world's languages and thus tracing their historical lineage, have been too timid ... According to classic Nostratic doctrine, the Indo-European language family is only one of six branches of a much larger family. This 'superfamily' — the Nostratic family — extends to the south, covering languages of northern Africa and the Middle East (and languages of India unaccounted for by Indo-European), and well to the north and east, covering scores of languages from Finland through Siberia all the way to Korea and Japan. The idea is that all these languages are offshoots of the proto-Nostratic tongue, spoken by a people who lived more than 10,000 years ago. Nostraticists, through the arcane detective work that is a primary pastime of comparative linguistics, have reconstructed this language. They have compiled a dictionary containing hundreds of proto-Nostratic words, modeled after the proto-Indo-European dictionaries that have long been accepted in the West as standard reference works.

The assertion that proto-Nostratic actually existed, though sufficient to inflame a number of American linguists, is innocuous compared with the second part of Shevoroshkin's world view: the Nostratic phylum is itself historically related to the handful of other great language families Shevoroshkin sees in the world, which means that all of them are descended from a common tongue. This language — called, variously, proto-Human, proto-World, and the Mother Tongue — would have been spoken 50,000, 100,000, maybe even 150,000 years ago, probably in Africa, and then diffused across the globe. And here's the kicker, the thing that gives Shevoroshkin a rock-solid basis for his bunker mentality: he believes not only that proto-World's past existence is apparent but that proto-World is itself apparent, its primordial elements distinctly visible in modern languages, as refracted through eons of linguistic evolution. He says we can now begin reconstructing proto-World, the basic vocabulary from which all the world's known languages have sprung."

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the full text can be found at http://members.aol.com/yahyam/protoworld.html

amazingly out of the 27 proto words that was tried in this exercise, 12 words are still in use in Tamil even today.

[bis_mala]

You can find frogs in water or near places that have water like ponds and streams

The term manduuk(/g)am is made up of maN + thuungu + am There are two meanings to maN. As a verb, it means to wash or bathe. MaN > maNNuthal.

The other meaning is “soil” or “earth”, and in this meaning, the word is commonly known to many.

Though the frog is an amphibian, it mostly spends its time on the ground near to ponds and lakes. It returns to places that hold water in order to meet the female frog. Thus it is called “maN+ thuungu + am = maNduukam” = maNNil perumpalum iruppathu. Or maNNith thuunguvathu - an animal which bathes / sleeps in water. Here maNNuthal may refer to its mating habit in water.


The word thuungu becomes duuku, (th) to (d) as a result of sandhi. (word joining). Then duungam became duugam,( in grammar known as “idaikkuRai) (dropping a letter or syllable in the center. )

Supporting example: see ilangu > ilaku..

Hence the root of the word manduukam is in Tamil.

[bis_mala]

Paranjothi Munivar lived circa 16 c ACE. In his ThiruviLayadal Puranam, Munivar answers the question: "How did Sanskrit get its Grammar written by Panini?" Paranjothi believed that Panini learnt his principles of grammar from the South - from Tamil language. Hence in his ThiruviLayadal Puranam, he asserts that Siva Peruman taught him grammar. According to history, the worship of Sivam spread from the south to the north. Recent linguistic researches show that Sanksrit alphabet is modelled after Tamil as a, aa, i, ii and so forth and not as a, b, c as in other Indo-European languages. Paranjothi receives some support for his views from these research findings. Paranjothi was a great poet and it is not known whether he had carried out any researches on his own.

I have reproduced the particular stanza from ThiruviLaiyaadal purANam in another thread : pala suvaik kavithaikaL in the Poems/KavithaikaL section,

Some would say that mythology is rubbish, others would say that the stories there attempt to lay down moral instructions for people to follow and so forth. But they also contain historical truths presented in an indirect manner. Instead of saying PaNini learnt his grammar from a teacher in the south (which statement would contain no extraordinary substance) mythology says that Sivan (god of the South) taught paaNini, a grammarian of the north. There will be less constraints and objections if he "superimposed" the god on the teacher. We come across this in everyday life too. If someone is killed in an accident, one may say: well, god has taken him away! That cuts everything short and no one finds it objectionable in the circumstances.

[bis_mala]

Apparent lexical borrowings by Dr languages from Indo-Aryan:

Some scholars conclude that if a word is found in Sanskrit lexicon and the same word is also in use in Dravidian, then, Dravidian must have borrowed it from Indo-Aryan. It would appear to be so but one must look further to see whether Indo-Aryan has the roots to that particular word. These scholars also presume that Indo-Aryan is older than Tamil (which was the view prevailing in the 1900 - 1950 ACE ) but since then, much more research has been done which does not support such a view. M Lahovery proved that more than one third of Sanskirt vocabulary is from Dravidian.

As opposed to comparing a whole word in Sanskrit and Dravidian, if the word is split and the roots can be shown to be Dravidian, then the word is a Dravidian word.

One example is thabuthaaram.

tharu + am = thaaram. (one who gives a child to the husband, i.e. a wife)

thabuthal (verb) = keduthal. ( Verbs are not borrowable from other languages.)

thabuthaaram - thaaram izantha nilai. This is entirely a tamil terminology and not even a hybrid term. This term is "vinaiththogai".

[honey bee]

thabuthaaram - thaaram izantha nilai.

meaning widower?

[bis_mala]

Not exactly.

This 'technical' term is used in poetics - in love poetry. If the poem situation or subject-matter of the poem is lamanetations of a husband over the death of his wife, then it is TABUTHAARAM or TABUTHAARANILAI.

The term is from Tolkaapiyam, the oldest grammar on the subject. The reference here is to the situation of the poem and not the persona.

[bis_mala]

źó¾õ ±ýÀÐ ÀͨÁÂ¡É ¸¡Äò¨¾ì ÌȢ츢ÈÐ. ÁÃ了ʦ¸¡Ê¸û ÐÇ¢÷òÐò ¾¨ÆôÀÐõ ÁÄ÷¸û ÁÄ÷óÐ Á½õ Å£ÍÅÐõ þ측Äò¾¢ø¾¡ý ±ýÀР¡ÅÕõ «È¢ó¾¦¾¡ýÈ¡Ìõ.

źó¾õ ±ýÀÐ ÀÆí¸¡Äò¾¢ø ÅÂó¾õ ±ýÚ ÅÆí¸¢ÂÐ. Á½¢§Á¸¨Ä áÄ¢ø ÅÂó¾Á¡¨Ä ±ýÀÐ ´Õ ¦Àñ½¢ý ¦ÀÂḠÅÕ¸¢ÈÐ. þô§À¡¾¡É¡ø, þó¾ô ¦À¨à "źó¾Á¡Ä¡" ±ýÚ Á¡üȢ¢ÕôÀ¡÷¸û. þÐ ¿¢ü¸!

¾Á¢Æ¢Öõ À¢È¦Á¡Æ¢¸Ç¢Öõ À > Å ¾¢Ã¢Ò ¯ñÎ. ±-Î: ÀÌ > ÅÌ. ÀñÊ > ÅñÊ. þýÛõ ÀÄ ¬Ã¡öó¾¡ø ±Ç¢¾¢ø ¸¢¨¼ìÌõ.

źó¾õ ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø À¢È¦Á¡Æ¢Â¢ø "Àºóò" "Àºó¾" ±ýÚ ÅÕÅÐñÎ.

ÀͨÁ ÌÈ¢ìÌõ ÀÍ > ÀºóÐ ±É ÅÕõ. (ÀÍ + «õ(Ţ̾¢) + Ð (Ţ̾¢). «õ º¡Ã¢¨Â¡¸×õ þÕì¸Ä¡õ. (¬Ú + ¸¨Ã = ¬üÈí¸¨Ã ±ýÀ¾¢ø «õ º¡Ã¢¨Â §À¡Ä.)


ÀÍ > (ÀºóÐ) > (źóÐ) > źó¾õ. The intermediate forms given in brackets are not in use in Tamil, but in other languages.) «ùÅõ¦Á¡Æ¢¸Ç¢ý þÂøÀ¢¨É ´ðÊ ÅºóÐ ±ýÀРźóò ±ýÚõ ÀºóÐ ±ýÀÐ Àºóò ±ýÚõ ®üÚ ¯¸Ãõ ¦¸ðÎ ÅÆíÌõ.

¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Âò¾¢ø ¯ûÇ "þº¢ý" («È¢ó¾¢º¢§É¡§Ã) ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø ¾Á¢Æ¢ø ÅÆí¸Å¢ø¨Ä, ¬É¡ø ´Õ ż þó¾¢Â ¦Á¡Æ¢Â¢ø ÅÆí̸¢ÈÐ ±ýÚ ¬öÅ¡Ç÷¸û ±ÎòÐ측ðÊÉ÷. «Ð§À¡Ä, ¾Á¢Æ¢ø º¢Ä ¦º¡ü¸Ùõ ¦º¡øÅÊÅí¸Ùõ ÅÆíÌž¢ø¨Ä. But lost word forms can be retrieved using these research methods as above ÀÍ > (ÀºóÐ) > (źóÐ) > źó¾õ.

¨À ±ýÈ ¦º¡øÖõ ÀͨÁ ÌÈ¢ôÀÐ. ¨À > ¨Å > Å > ÅÂó¾õ (Å + «õ+ ¾õ ) ±ýÀÐõ ¬Ìõ. ¨À <> ÀÍ. ±-Î: ¨Àí¦¸¡Ê, ¨Àó¾Á¢ú. (¾õ ±ýÀÐ Ð+ «õ þÕ Å¢Ì¾¢¸û ¸Äó¾Ð).

ÅÂó¾õ > źó¾õ. ( > º ¬Ìõ), ¯-õ: š¢ø > Å¡ºø. ¸ÄÂõ > ¸Äºõ.

ÓÊ×: źó¾õ ±ýÀÐ ¾Á¢úãÄò¾¢ø §¾¡ýȢ ¦º¡ø.

[bis_mala]

Tamil verb "mathiththal" means "grind" or "make soft". The grindstaff or churnstaff is called maththu, which is always put into the centre hollow of the grindstone to grind or churn. From this the word attained the meaning "centre".

mathi > maththu > maththiyaana > maththiyanam > mathiyam.

Please note that the word: kadai means in Tamil: grind as well as last (kadaisi).
So do not be surprised that the word maththiyaana came from the root to grind.

Note that madhyene in Skrt also means through the midst of or on the inside. It shows indirectly this idea of (charnstaff) in the centre or inside (the grindstone). This meaning is not completely lost. It is still traceable.

maththiyaana actually means naduvaana (nEram).

The term maththiyaana must have originated from people of the pastoral tracts who did much of the churning with churnstaffs.

Aso note that the term "idai" comes from the root "idu" meaning to "place" something. In other words "placed" between is the central concept here.

The root word for "mayyam" (centre) in Tamil is "mai". It comes from "machi" Áº¢ which is another form of the word "mathi" Á¾¢ò¾ø (grind or make soft). mai ("¨Á") is obtained by grinding some black coloured stuff, a vegitable matter.

Conclusion is that mathiyam, maththiyanam are from Tamil roots. (aanam = aakiyathu from the Tamil "aana" participle verb.)

Existing words extended their meanings in this way.

[Bebeto]

Dear bis_mala,
are my following assumptions wrong?

mathiththaal = to respect,
kadai = the shop

This was my understanding up to now until you came. I am a "former Jaffna Tamil", left SL 27 Years ago and was not, pardon me, taking care of and for Tamil since. I am sorry about it but the circumstances forced me to be so.

Good Work you, FSG and Idiappam are delivering, thanks. (Others may think different but I don't think that I am the only one who appreciate you three)