Is tamil derived from Sanskrit

[A P MASILAMANI]

Sugarcane is (one of six species of) a tall tropical southeast Asian grass. The plant and its
product features prominently in the history of Europe in the 1700s and 1800s. Whilst the
colonial powers could have introduced large scale growing of sugarcane in parts of India,
it cannot be accepted that any European power introduced the plant for the first time in
especially South India.

The peoples of South India have had connections with SEAsia well before the arrival of
the Europeans. Raja Raja Chozan’s military expeditions covered various parts of South
East Asia. Much before that, it is said that even Karikalan’s forces reached SEA.

“The home of sugarcane is New Guinea and Papuans are thought to be closely related to
the San bushmen, who migrated from southeast Africa in prehistoric times to populate
southern India and, later, nearby Australia.” We are not without recent as well as remote
connections with sugarcane areas.

Tamil literary sources have reasons to believe that Athiamaan’s predecessors introduced
sugarcane to Tamilnadu for the first time from SEA.

The word Karumpu is a Tamil word and sugarcane was so named for its dark green
colour. karu + pu (suffix) > karumpu. The word kannal is again formed from the same
root: karu + nal > (karunal) > kannal (= sugarcane). At this stage, you can compare the
word’s derivation with karunadam> kannadam; the word karu > kaN > kaNNan means
black person (Krishnan). These formations would show that the root word is karu,
meaning black colour. Whilst we still have “kannal” in use today, “karunal” - the
intermediate form seems to have died out. But for cheruppu, you similarly have the
derived form as well, in “cheppal”. Cheruppu > cheruppu +al (a second suffix) >
cheppal. (chappal). Please note the pattern : the dropping of the intermediate “r” as for
kannal.

In a natural language like Tamil, it is usual for certain (intermediate) word forms to
become defunct after issuing out changed forms as shown above. Dictionaries and
literature often fail to keep pace with such developments. I do not think that any
lexicographer has successfully captured Tamil words/ usage such as aLLuuRu (drain),
anchadi (pavement), sivappaalam (red bridge), kayalaa (fever), muudaanku (lid), poRukki
kadai (second hand dealer’s shop ) and others so far. As times change, certain words go
out of use and fashion and others or other forms take their place.

Just like ordinary individuals take time to understand and respond, researchers too have to
go through stages. Anyway, their first reaction against a word would invariably be that the
word might be a foreign word. Even maangaai can be misuderstood as a Malay word
(mangga) because you will find mangga in the Indon and Malay dictionaries. But only
Tamil can give the root word, maa from which maa+kaai, maa+maram, maa+ilai,
maa+thoppu, maa + choolai, maa+kuyil etc flow. If you look at Javanese dictionary,
mangga is not divisible in such manner.

Prior to 1950, it was thought by some exponents in Tamil like K P Santhosh (Makiznan)
that chiini came from word chiinaa (China) because, (presumably), it came from China.
Sugarcane was also known and used by the Chinese. Sugarcane has a prominent place in
some festivals of China.

Sugarcane is traditionally used in Ponggal festival too.
A “siddhar” it seems, can consider himself as successful and as having attained “siddhu” if
a genus of sugarcane known as “peei karumpu” and usually bitter, tasted sweet to him.
This practice too, appears to be an old practice among them.

Other researchers studying the word “kannadam” (language) thought the word “kannal”
was old enough to be considered the root word of kannadam.

In Bharathithaasan’s stanza: “Kandai nikar kannadamennum mozikaL”, kandai means
kalkandu and the poet seems to subscribe to the view kannadam came from “kannal”.

However in the late fifties, researchers were certain that chiini comes from the word chin
(chinna) - small, referring to its granulated form.

Chiini is merely kalkandu (rock sugar) broken into small (coarse) pieces by pounding
(before the advent of machines).

“(kal)kandu” or “kandai” (big pieces) contrasts with chiini (small bits or granules). This
shows the way ordinary people think before they make words. Please note the usage: nuul
kandu ; kandu kandaaka thadiththu vittathu etc.
Chiini is an ordinary man’s word and do not despair if you do not find it in any literature.

Tamil annai stands on two legs: ulaka vazakku ( people’s usage) and seiyuL vazakku
(literary usage).

Our views based on comparative word studies differ from those who disbelieve the ability
of ordinary Tamilans to make thier own words. Of course, these people also use many
foreign words for convenience. But chiini is not one of such words.

Europeans learnt many new words after coming to the East. Englishmen acquired words
such as bangles, bungalow. Similarly the Portuguese learnt new words from us.

IE languages like to borrow either from one another or from the people whom they come
in contact with or place names, like the word “turkey”. The Tamils do not have this last
mentioned habit of giving an item a name derived from a place-name. Furthermore, so
many things came from China, chiinaakkaaram, chinak kalkandu, chinaththukkiLi etc.,
The word china was added in these words to show their place of origin; this is not
padikaaram but chinaakkaaram; this is not panangkalkandu but chinaak kalkandu; that is
not our local kiLi but a kiLi from China!! That is not local vedi but china vedi (pattasu)!!
The word china then functioned as an adjective qualifying the name of the item. Thus
chiini is not the only thing that came from China.

Thus it is more probable that chiini came from the word chil > chin> chinna (small )
meaning grains or granules of sugar. That is the latest and considered view. It contrasts well with rock sugar which is kalkandu and differentiates it.

If a Tamil root word can explain the meaning of the word correctly, there is no reason to
adopt other uncertain courses.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear A.P. Masilamani,

Thank you for your information regarding karumbu.

Your indepth knowledge about ground realities is remarkable.

china karam,china thukkuli,china kalkandu,(add) china kaliman(Mud) and chinei all contain polished/fair colour.

All the above words do not specify china or brought from china.

They were all made here.

The root of that words is cheeru/seeru which means arranged/refained/having fair look.

Kalkandu is by product while cheeni is made from 'sarukkaraippagu' with/without machine.

It will have dull colour. A china kalkandu is fair in colour.

The people named cheeni first and kalkandu next. sarukkarai is also a by product of cheeni. People called sometimes seeni sarkarai. It doen't mean small sakkarai. Because sarkarai has small granules than seeni.

Clean and white always are referred to beauty.

Srini the equivalent word for thiru evloved from the same root 'seeru'.

Kindly think it over and come to a conclusion.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

some root words:

A language can be named to specify the nature of the people who spoke that language.

Thirayar mozhi=thiramil=tamil

karunadar- kannadar=kannada, Sankam literature specified vaduga karunadar.

thelivalungar=thelivu+alungar=thelungar=thelugar=t elugu

thelivu-clear, alungar-mixed, Compare kalangu,alanga nallur, alungamal, kulungamal

Thelugus easliy adopted sanskritised tamil culture and alienated from tamils.

malayalam= malai+alam, the place near malai, Compare uppalam-the place near uppu-salt production. 'Al'- means near. Compare 'Akkul'-al+ul.

tulu= a branch of old telugu= thuluthal=kilaithal=a branch of big figure. thuli also has same meaning.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Some more roots:

A word for luck-althittam-al+thittam. One of the meaning of al is 'no'

Without plan someting got is the meaning. Compare the words alli,alagu,alakku,ali - all have al root means allai/illai.

Note the equivalent word 'Tharcheyal'

Kamam- kam+am, kam is from am. kam & am means water/flowing matter. Two times it is used to specify its uncontrollability.

Compare the word amadu-am+madu. Am here means water.madu means nilam(land). A land near water. Maduvankarai- a village in Chennai near bay of bengal.

kamankarai-kam+am+karai= kam & am here also means water.

Hence kamam is one of the earliest tamil word when men used 'suttu oligal'.

amba samuthiram-a town name- am+ pai + samuththiram.

am and pai specifies water flowing.

The uncontrollable feelings flown out are specified by this word kamam.

In natham tham can be compared with thampaanku-themmanku-a folk song.

For wheel, after urulai, chakkaram was formulated through 'maram chakkai'-dead piece of tree- for transport.

In that tamils are foremost inventor in the world.

Kuyavu chakkaram was tamils first invention. 'chakku mara ennai'
can also be taken for comparison.

Anjali is tamil word.Agam+seli. internal feelings drived out.

f.s.gandhi

[A P MASILAMANI]

Mr/Ms Gandhi,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Contrary thinking and alternative analysis is always good and welcome.

According to you : " The root of that words is cheeru/seeru which means arranged/refained/having fair look. "

So, cheer > cheeru > cheenu > chiini.

Is that the way the word developed, as per your study of the word?

Please share some examples where "r" has changed to "n" in other Tamil or Dravidian word derivations. Like "p" can change to "v" as in paku > vaku.

Regards.

[TamilenUir]

Dear A.P. Masilamani,

I find some similarity between the Tamil and English words "Vetri" and "Victory". Is there a possibility of one being derived from the other. Your thoughts please..

Thanks

[TamilenUir]

Dear Mr. Maasilamani,

I'am pasting this from my old post as I didn't get any replies for this query:-


Recently I came across the German word for Round and it is 'Runde' This is very close to our Tamil word 'URunde'. So is the word for Head - 'Rundam' as it is round(I'am not sure if it is a Sanskrit word taken up by Tamil).
can anyone give me an insight into these words, the language from which this word originated and your reasons please...

[A P MASILAMANI]

Dear Tamilenuyir.

Vanakkam.

At present, there are linguists who point out that Max Muller and William Jones came across Skrt but had no idea of this southern language called Tamil. Thus they failed to even refer to Tamil/Dravidian as (a) possible source language(s) for proto-Indo-European language. Hence most Western linguists follow their predecessors and always cite Skrt as containing the roots of IE.

There is little real evidence that Skrt existed before 400 ACE. All inscriptions so far discovered used Tamil or Prakrit. The earliest stone inscription found dates back to 400 BCE and it is in Tamil.

Pali is even older than Sanskrit.

Some researchers conclude that there is no evidence for the claim of William Jones and Muller that Rig Veda was written in the pre-Christian era. Not all writers of the Rig Veda hymns were Aryans.Many could have been Dravidian ordinaries.

There are researchers who have come to the conclusion that Greek, Hebrew, Latin and Skrt were invented languages and it would be unrealistic to say that Latin or Skrt has the root for any word. These languages were artificially developed owing to the social and political necessities of the time. They grew or were enriched with roots taken from the surrounding regions ......


I am just summarizing for you. I am unable to gain access to the materials I have gathered owing to technical problems with my computer machines.

With this background in mind, I would say that the similarities you have pointed out would mean that the other languages borrowed from Tamil. According to some Western linguists, the proto -IE language(s) borrowed from Dravidian or Proto Dravidian at a very very early stage of their linguistic development. Dravidian was spoken in West Asia (around Iraq) very long ago. Pl see the old posts in this thread and under another thread : Dead Skrt is always dead. (The use of the word "dead" has been objected to.)
Many world languages have Tamil/Dravidian elements in them.


compare: for ease of ref, I use the Eng words.

vel > vetri with IE valour, victory
uruL > urundai with IE round

You have pointed out the German /Latin forms.

Some have expressed the opinion that presently it is politically not rewarding and economically unproductive for any govt to fund a research to establish a connection between IE and Tamil/Dravidian. Hence this matter has not been taken up for research seriously.


Best regards

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Mr.A.P. Masilamani,

When we find out the root for any word we have to look into the vowel starting of the word. Because tamil was formed by 'suttu oligal'-a,e,u. Then the same 'suttu oligal' turned into words. 'Am & Al are the examples.

There are lot of vowel starting words in tamil than any other language of the world.

That's why tamil is natural than any artificial languages.

There are consonant starting words in tamil but were formed first by vowels and then turned consonant. This point is very much essential in finding out root words. Ex. Am- Um-Sam roots.

Ex. lathu(telugu)=consonant starting, elathu(vowel starting)=el+athu.

There are lot of words in tamil old literature which were not used in the available sangam literature. But we can find some of them in the people colloquial language/dialects.

amadu/maduvankarai is one of that word that I specified earlier.

Even in Chennai(Madras) colloquial tamil which is considered a worst dialect by tamil pandits has 'kalaaiththal' ' (making fun of)' a old word is used. Hence tamil pandits should get into the dialects.
There we can get lot of roots.

Neelu is old word in tamil literature. It has turned neer in tamil. Kannada also neeru. In telugu the same neelu is there.

There is no proto dravidian/dravidian. We can use tamil as a source of root words for any language.

'Ra' difference/ 'la' difference occured during later grown stage of tamil language. No phonetics rules have been followed anywhere in tamil grammar. That is why lot of languages were formed from tamil phonetically.

There is enough proof that tamil is the origin of all languages in the world. The newly formed languages must have mingled together/more than one artificial languages mingled forming the world languages of today's world order is apparent.

Hence, If we form this hypothesis and do research we can find lot of evidences. Already enough evidences are there but to counter other wrong conclusions we have to invent more in that.

//cheer > cheeru > cheenu > chiini. //

I brought to your notice,the word, Srini-srinivasan-seenivasan.

Srini means thiru and it came from seerani=seer+ani both means thiru. Sanskirt sri is formed from this.

we can give many ex.s for 'ragaram' left out/absence.

Chinnalappattu-a name for a silk sarree. 'Seeranalappakattu' is the correct form. Cheer+an+aal+pakattu. Pattu is from pakattu.

karattu valkai-forest life- kattu valkai

orumai & panmai- parunmai turned panmai.

kan-eye- karun turned kan. In kannan - karunnan is correct form.

puran-out- puran turned pun-an injury

Neer vilaaval- water dissipation/mixing to wipe out heat. In this viraval-paravuthal- turned vilaaval.

thattu-plate- tharattu-thirattu- turned thattu.

Likewise srini turned seeni with the absence of 'ragaram' is the correct evoluation.

//At present, there are linguists who point out that Max Muller and William Jones came across Skrt but had no idea of this southern language called Tamil. Thus they failed to even refer to Tamil/Dravidian as (a) possible source language(s) for proto-Indo-European language. Hence most Western linguists follow their predecessors and always cite Skrt as containing the roots of IE. //


I complement to this passage.

When Vinsent smith started to write the book 'The ancient Indian history' understood that Indian history must be started from south not from north during writing the foreword to that book. -Refer 'Oppiean mozhi nool by Devanayap pavanar.

Maxmuller who eulosized sanskrit understood in his later years that the elements of world languages should be searched in tamil not in sanskrit- Refer Rt.Rev.Robert Caldwell, A Comparative Grammar of the Dravidian/South indian family of languages(1976), Page 90-91.

f.s.gandhi

[A P MASILAMANI]

Dear Mr/Ms Gandhi.

Thank you for your explanation.

You have your basis for saying cheeru > chiini, though your views differ from those who held chil >chin>chiini.

In any event, chiini is Tamil word, however analysed.

I am satisfied that only Tamil and none of the other languages seem to offer any root for the word.

Pl carry on. Regards.