KARMA-The free will Vs VIDHI-The fate

[Rohit]

r u telling me that everything begins with God?

I have already answered this question in my earlier post. Perhaps the clarification below may help.

If one genuinely believes in the existence of a God, without bothering about establishing the absolute necessity for His existence, then the answer to this question could be affirmative; else, the answer to this question is absolutely negative.

ok, but how and why were we created?

Again, I have already answered this question too in my earlier post. Anyway, let me expand it little further to clarify the answer.

If one is a Hindu believer, then according to Hinduism, whatever exists, exists Eternally i.e. everything existed from infinite past, forever....... In that case, the questions like 'how, what, when, where, who, why etc.' with regard to any kind of creation are absolutely meaningless, as there is no way by which any kind of creation could ever take place.

If one is a non-Hindu believer and believes in a Creator God as believed in Judaism, Christianity or Islam, then one may find answers to all his/her 'how, what, when, where, who, why etc.' questions in the relevant scriptures.

So, it is entirely up to the individuals to choose one's own belief system.

I hope, this may help you remain crazy forever (i.e. Eternally).

[SRS]

If one genuinely believes in the existence of a God, without bothering about establishing the absolute necessity for His existence, then the answer to this question could be affirmative; else, the answer to this question is absolutely negative.

ok, but how and why were we created?

Again, I have already answered this question too in my earlier post. Anyway, let me expand it little further to clarify the answer.

You can ask, do only humans have a need for the "existance of god" or is it the whole universe. Can random processes design such an efficient system as the universe? I say efficient, not perfect... if one focuses on the sustainibility and durability, then the universe is certainly efficient. Can a human design a mechanical system that will take care of itself for several billion yrs? Can the human account for every important energy transformation taking place within that period and make the necessary alterations? Is there a viable energy source to allow such a possibility to even come into consideration? Will the parts of this system be able to automatically replenish themselves when wear and tear occurs? Will this system have efficient ways of infinitely recycling wastes? Another point of consideration to be made is that although certain processes such as evolution seem to indicate that order can be created from chaos, the reality is that there are only four fundamental fources holding the entire universe together. So really the Universe runs on mechanistic, not probabilistic, principles - I do not think gravity has ever altered itself. There is order at the subatomic scale.

If one is a Hindu believer, then according to Hinduism, whatever exists, exists Eternally i.e. everything existed from infinite past, forever....... In that case, the questions like 'how, what, when, where, who, why etc.' with regard to any kind of creation are absolutely meaningless, as there is no way by which any kind of creation could ever take place.

This is basic science. Energy and matter cannot be created. So the implication here is that all energy came from a single energy source, which simply transformed itself into new forms of energy and continues doing so. And energy can be transformed into matter.

[crazy]

I hope, this may help you remain crazy forever (i.e. Eternally).

This is basic science. Energy and matter cannot be created. So the implication here is that all energy came from a single energy source, which simply transformed itself into new forms of energy and continues doing so. And energy can be transformed into matter.

Energi can neither be created nor be destroyed
it can only change from one kind to another.

[Rohit]

You can ask, do only humans have a need for the "existance of god" or is it the whole universe. Can random processes design such an efficient system as the universe? I say efficient, not perfect... if one focuses on the sustainibility and durability, then the universe is certainly efficient. Can a human design a mechanical system that will take care of itself for several billion yrs? Can the human account for every important energy transformation taking place within that period and make the necessary alterations? Is there a viable energy source to allow such a possibility to even come into consideration? Will the parts of this system be able to automatically replenish themselves when wear and tear occurs? Will this system have efficient ways of infinitely recycling wastes? Another point of consideration to be made is that although certain processes such as evolution seem to indicate that order can be created from chaos, the reality is that there are only four fundamental fources holding the entire universe together. So really the Universe runs on mechanistic, not probabilistic, principles - I do not think gravity has ever altered itself. There is order at the subatomic scale.

Good try SRS, but it is not good enough. By failing to consider all possible situations and conditions, your argument simply reduces into the fallacy of false dichotomy. Let me show you how.

1) All you have said is that universe works efficiently but imperfectly; and it works based on certain natural laws that govern the mutual interactions between the various contents, ranging from large-scale structures to subatomic particles, of the universe. This, by no means, provides the necessary and sufficient condition to prove the absolute necessity for the “existence of god”.

2) If an entity behaving in admittedly imperfect way is assumed to have been ordered by another entity, then the latter entity requires to be ordered even more by a third entity, which itself requires to be ordered by a fourth one, which by a fifth one, which by a sixth one, seventh one, eighth one ………………….the chain of entities required to be ordered goes to infinity, requiring a set of an infinite number of entities, either within or outside the boundaries of the universe; and the existence of all of them would be contingent to the other ones, none of them could ever exist absolutely necessarily. There is no entity whatsoever that one could point to and say, YES! this the one that must exist absolutely necessarily, without which the whole thing would collapse and fail.

3) The situation captured above is only a partial dichotomy. The dichotomy extends even further, if one considers both the material as well as efficient cause of the universe. The paragraph that you have chosen to omit from my post, mentions exactly that. There are billions of believers who believe in an Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Creator God, who is not only the efficient cause but also the material cause of the entire universe. Whereby it is believed that the universe and life did not exist eternally, but they were created at some point in time in the past by the Creator God. This not only makes the need for the “existence of god” absolutely unnecessary, but in principle, it also refutes the entire belief system of Hinduism; and so it refutes all your arguments.

4) One can go even further and consider the situation whereby a chain of infinite number of Creator Gods; Supreme Gods and so on can be conceived requiring to create lower Gods and gods; and yet there can be no God that could exist absolutely necessarily.

5) If it is all about science of matter, energy and energy transformations then let it be that way.

6) The belief of eternal existence of it gets thoroughly refuted by the belief in creation, and yet nothing can be shown to prove the existence of an absolutely necessary Being.

BTW the base of quantum theory (which mainly deals with the behaviours of subatomic particles) entirely rests on the uncertainties and probabilistic application of the wave function.

So, failing to consider every possible conditions and situations, SRS your argument becomes a perfect example of the fallacy of false dichotomy.

If your understanding restricts you to grasp the full extent of dichotomy, then I am afraid, there is nothing I can do to help you there, but one thing I can definitely do is not to enter in any further futile arguments with you; and let you continue with your chosen belief system.

So that the rest can continue discussing the intended topic " Karma & Vidhi"

[pradheep]

Now, there are several places in Hindu scriptures, especially in Upanishads, where one would find and read something like “The creator and creation are identical” or “The creator is the creation himself”. If this is accepted and believed as true, then, the cause and effect become one and the same, there can be no distinction between the two, and thus between the cause and an effect, no matter what they are. In that case, yes, one can logically affirm that all effects are the effects of the FIRST cause (even when it is God for some), for there is absolutely no way to distinguish between the two.

My dear friend Rohit,

for there is absolutely no way to distinguish between the two.

Maya .... is that everyone distinguishes it. That is duality. Enlightment or moksha is when one cease to distinguish it. This the "Truth".

Karma and Vidhi is when one is caught in the Ego mind (the sense small self) and one does not see the whole.

karma is action. Every action is destined by rules of cause and effect. This is vidhi and no one can change it. But one has the free will to change (not the vidhi) but the choices of one action.

Example, putting the finger in the fire will burn it. This is vidhi (cause and effect). But there is free will whether to put finger in the fireor not. This is free will. One has choice to exercise free will but not change vidhi ( cause and effect). This is what |Krishnasays in Gita.

[Rohit]

Dear Pradheep, how are you these days? Hope everything is according to your course of action.

Maya .... is that everyone distinguishes it. That is duality. Enlightment or moksha is when one cease to distinguish it.

And the distinction between the cause and effect completely ceases.

Yes! exactly that what I have said is part of the belief system of Hinduism; and here, I have no argument against that belief system. In fact, here, I have no argument against any belief system. It is entirely up to the individuals to choose one's own belief system.

Pradheep, please continue with that.................

[anbu_kathir]

there is only one thing i want to see.........no matter why u born or what u gonna do in this life or what u did in previous life, the fact is that u r living, u r a person.................SO BE A GOOD HUMAN BEING...............how? by helping others, by not doing any evil or bad to others, be kind, be etc etc.

it doesnt matter whether u believe in karma or vidhi or god.............what matter is How u r living or how useful ur life is to others Rolling Eyes Smile

no need for the sophisticated "soul searching" stuff and "understanding oneself" blah blah. we are here for some reasong beyond our comprehension. why not spend it being of some use, if not, not being a trouble, to others.

The reason why we need self realization is simple.. we don't know what exactly is good or bad for others. We don't know what exactly is good for even ourselves.

Self-realization helps you understand what is good/bad for us, and others. Understanding oneself is the most important thing to be done, for it gives you a clear picture of how far one can stretch the body and mind, opens up the unlimited vistas of experiences available to us.

And btw, it is quite simpler than many many other aims of this world.
In fact, it is the most natural way to live, from my experience.

Love and Light.

[pradheep]

The reason why we need self realization is simple.

Dear Anbu
Whether we like it or not. we are evolving to that state. if we use our intellect we quicken it otherwise we get harsh difficulties forcing us to evolve. Self Realization is the reason for evolution.

[anbu_kathir]

The reason why we need self realization is simple.

Dear Anbu
Whether we like it or not. we are evolving to that state. if we use our intellect we quicken it otherwise we get harsh difficulties forcing us to evolve. Self Realization is the reason for evolution.

True, true. Self realization is a surity. The thing is about 'conscious' evolution.

Love and Light.

[pradheep]

Unfortunately we are so caught with materialism and the pranks of the mind that we are rarely conscious and hence spiritual path is recommended for conscious evolution. We "wake up" only when we encounter suffering in life. It is easy and good when are aware even in our normal day to day life. This awareful living will help us to make right choices in life and chose the right action or right karma. At any instance in life, the ability to make decisions is controlled by the sum total of all our experinences of the past called "sanchita karma". The impressions are called "vasanas". To extingush past impressions we have to do agama karma and get rid of the prarabhada.

This is why in Vedic (Indian) culture right actions or right karma is emphasized.