Jyothisham - The Scientific Calculation

[r_kk]

Hi Sri ... i believe that Astro is a Science ....
but can u explain about what was said by r_kk above ?

Hi bingleguy,
Don't expect any answer for simple basic question, from the people who had decided themselves Jyothisham as science. Unfortunately the astronomical knowledge of our ancestors mixed with so many superstitious beliefs and interlinked with religious beliefs. I am eagerly waiting from many hubbers those who are writing here, to start any reliable scientific discussions instead of telling the old stories and myths mixing with pseudo science.

[kannannn]

r_kk, it is a waste of time to expect any rational answers for any of these claims. I can't keep count of the number of questions on which any scientific proofs have been forthcoming.

[manyvan2000]

r_kk, it is a waste of time to expect any rational answers for any of these claims. I can't keep count of the number of questions on which any scientific proofs have been forthcoming.

Any research is a waste of time, if not for the quest of knowledge. If you are content with what you know, of course it is not necessary to study anything, be it astrology or rocket science. These discussions are only for those who think they dont know much and want to learn more.

[r_kk]

Rat Joshiyam is a science;
A detail research carried out on poem written by yagahva rishi (lived in 4BC! Who knows ) proves that rats can predict the earthquake few days before human can sense it. So it implies that rats can feel the vibration of earth as well as vibration of human mind i.e., nothing but bad and good thoughts, (myth making -1 ). When it picks up the card (ignore, whether it will get rice for every card it picks up) it understand the cosmic vibration (myth making-2 ) around ones body. So Rat joshiyam can be considered as the valid science and we all can be proud about the wisdom of our ancestors on behavioral studies on animals. Those who want to broaden the knowledge on “parrot joshiyam”, “malayal mandirikam” etc, don’t be confined with the little knowledge gained in school and college text books. Open your minds for wisdom of thoughts provided by few hubbers here.
(I hope no one takes my message seriously! )

[FloraiPuyal]

Rat Joshiyam is a science;
A detail research carried out on poem written by yagahva rishi (lived in 4BC! Who knows ) proves that rats can predict the earthquake few days before human can sense it. So it implies that rats can feel the vibration of earth as well as vibration of human mind i.e., nothing but bad and good thoughts, (myth making -1 ). When it picks up the card (ignore, whether it will get rice for every card it picks up) it understand the cosmic vibration (myth making-2 ) around ones body. So Rat joshiyam can be considered as the valid science and we all can be proud about the wisdom of our ancestors on behavioral studies on animals. Those who want to broaden the knowledge on “parrot joshiyam”, “malayal mandirikam” etc, don’t be confined with the little knowledge gained in school and college text books. Open your minds for wisdom of thoughts provided by few hubbers here.
(I hope no one takes my message seriously! )

we are not talking about any kind of fantasy josiyams that some use to deceive others. i do agree that most of these are fake and have nothing to do with science. we are talking about the actual astrology. prove it or disprove it, if you have supporting facts.

[r_kk]

prove it or disprove it, if you have supporting facts.

Hi Floraipuyal,
I am having difficulties in understanding why you do not believe the forecast by Rats as valid ones. I hope you might be knowing the facts that it is worshiped in Karni Mata Rat Temple and considered as vehicle of Lord Ganesha. I don’t think you are aware of our ancestral story (sorry wisdom!) about the fighting between Lord Ganesha and moon, when Moon laughed at him after falling from his vehicle (Rat). So don’t underestimate the scientific knowledge behind Rats. If Rat is the main reason for the fight between Moon and God, then why can’t it predict Moon’s movement (astrology). Sorry I lost the habit of writing coherently after reading this thread.

Ok let me come to the point...

Please read my first post (page-1) on this thread which disproves the basis of astrology based on fundamental law of physics (relationship between pull, Mass and distance between multiple objects, effect on confined or unconfined large elastic bodies, scientific studies on human behavior w.r.t movements of moon) and then place your views.

[FloraiPuyal]

prove it or disprove it, if you have supporting facts.

Hi Floraipuyal,
I am having difficulties in understanding why you do not believe the forecast by Rats as valid ones. I hope you might be knowing the facts that it is worshiped in Karni Mata Rat Temple and considered as vehicle of Lord Ganesha. I don’t think you are aware of our ancestral story (sorry wisdom!) about the fighting between Lord Ganesha and moon, when Moon laughed at him after falling from his vehicle (Rat). So don’t underestimate the scientific knowledge behind Rats. If Rat is the main reason for the fight between Moon and God, then why can’t it predict Moon’s movement (astrology). Sorry I lost the habit of writing coherently after reading this thread.

Ok let me come to the point...

Please read my first post (page-1) on this thread which disproves the basis of astrology based on fundamental law of physics (relationship between pull, Mass and distance between multiple objects, effect on confined or unconfined large elastic bodies, scientific studies on human behavior w.r.t movements of moon) and then place your views.

r_kk,
I can understand your reasoning. In fact, I had these same questions 12 years back. trust me on this. I never believed in these and even till date, I dont believe in stories such as the one that you mentioned. But, ignoring these stories, there is quite a lot of facts in the typical texts. I am trying to learn those. I dont claim I am an expert in both. I am still learning both parallelly and also believe that both are not different in anyway.
I didnt believe in astrology till I started studying science and astrology parallelly. I dont know to what extent you have read einstein, hawking and penrose. I had a question, if light takes such a long time, the stars are not in the same positions as we see today. How, then, can astrology be true? I got the answer in parallel universe theory and space-time.
As I said in my previous replies, both macroscopic and microscopic behavior can be accurately predicted by knowing the relative positions of other elements in space-time. you can refer to hawking-penrose papers on these topics published some 10 years back or so.
It has been recently proved that if a pair of entangled particles which were once in contact with each other, but now totally out of contact, can show random behavior that is strongly correlated. This, called the Einstein-podolsky effect is still the greates mystery in physics to the western world. Ancient texts speak of something very similar to this, which is not possible if they didnt have the knowledge. This correlation, if extended to macroscopic theory ( which still now is not even explained in microscopic theory), this will be a proof that planets or any heavenly body could drastically affect anyother living/nonliving thing.
If you want to mock at eastern science, please mock at western science first. If you are baffled why, try extending quantum theory to macroscopic particles or relativity to microscopic particles. The greatest minds of the west are still trying to even understand why there is a singularity.
In fact hawking once said "nature abhors naked singularities" since he could not prove the existence of singularities despite numerous calculations. He lost a bet of $100 to Preskill and Thorne who disproved his statement and theoretically proved that singularity can of course be created by an "advanced civilization"
This type of singularites are quite often mentioned in ancient texts, though there are not any technical information on how they achieved this. My point is, no one can even imagine the existence of such things without a fair amount of knowledge on classical quantum theory and relativity.
Of course there are a lot of stupid additions to the original texts as later authors started adding their imaginations to them. We have to ignore what is irrelevant and find the real science behind these.
The main reason I believe astrology to be a science is that to the formula to predict the behavior of intermediate particles ( which fall between microscopic and macroscopic), if at all we can find, would have to include the relative location of heavenly bodies, in addition to the particle's historical positions in space-time and current position. eastern astrology is a detailed one, taking into account the exact space-time co ordinates of a person's birth relative to a set of heavenly bodies and from that point, its a simple set of manipulations to arrive at the current state of the person. The knowledge we lack now is, there are few more factors to be considered for accurate prediction and this is the information that I am searching for.

phew.. its becoming huge to include any more detail. sorry.

[r_kk]

Hi FloraiPuyal
Good to see your post containing lot of reference to Modern Physics, Quantum mechanics, particle physics, state of particles, Einsteen, Stephen Hawkins etc etc… but unfortunately you are trying to relate all these modern theories and hypothesis to religion, old ancestral knowledge and astrology. I don’t have any doubts on our ancestor’s knowledge on astronomy. Some of the reference in Tholkappiyam and Thirumandiram indirectly relates to theory of relativity. Similarly there are references about flights in Ramayana. But if we start claiming that they had known theory of relativity or aerodynamics in real sense, no one will believe it. Your long message tries its best to connect to extremely opposite points/theories but the major link is miserably missing. If you really want to write the link between astrology and science please write the exact slogans supporting astrology from any of the ancestral work and give unbiased explanation first. Explain the planets considered in astrology and how it relates to day to day life to creatures on earth. Then we can have a healthy discussion (I can also write quoting from Fritjof Cofra, Deepak Chopra works etc etc relating to eastern wisdom and explain how the real (!) scientific views differ from them!)

[FloraiPuyal]

Hi FloraiPuyal
Good to see your post containing lot of reference to Modern Physics, Quantum mechanics, particle physics, state of particles, Einsteen, Stephen Hawkins etc etc… but unfortunately you are trying to relate all these modern theories and hypothesis to religion, old ancestral knowledge and astrology. I don’t have any doubts on our ancestor’s knowledge on astronomy. Some of the reference in Tholkappiyam and Thirumandiram indirectly relates to theory of relativity. Similarly there are references about flights in Ramayana. But if we start claiming that they had known theory of relativity or aerodynamics in real sense, no one will believe it. Your long message tries its best to connect to extremely opposite points/theories but the major link is miserably missing. If you really want to write the link between astrology and science please write the exact slogans supporting astrology from any of the ancestral work and give unbiased explanation first. Explain the planets considered in astrology and how it relates to day to day life to creatures on earth. Then we can have a healthy discussion (I can also write quoting from Fritjof Cofra, Deepak Chopra works etc etc relating to eastern wisdom and explain how the real (!) scientific views differ from them!)

hey r_kk,
I am not trying to prove the supremacy of astrology over western science. Nor did I say that I know everything. As i said, we have to either prove it or disprove it. To do this, we have to study it completely.
Yes I accept there is a missing link, also I confessed that we have lost a lot of knowledge. All I am trying to do is to rediscover the lost knowledge. I am sure it will be extremely helpful to the modern world.

Again, I know and accept that it will be highly stupid to claim something without valid proofs. We have to study more, find out the real facts, bring out the proofs. ( I quoted only the western science facts. I compared them with my knowledge on eastern science. I did not quote any eastern science from anyone. please note that and do not mistake me for someone who googles relation between astrology and science and quotes based on that. I am a sincere student of science and I read hawking and penrose than sidney sheldon. The very book I am reading now as i type this is "Entanglement" by Amir D Aczel, student of Heisenberg. )

I have given my views why I consider eastern astrology as science. This is my theory and it shall hold till it is proved or disproved satisfactorily.

And for your last point, dear, if I knew that, I would be preparing my speech for this year's nobel laurette ceremony.

It might take years for my research to yield satisfiable results, amidst my hectic work schedule, but I hope to get proofs soon.

[r_kk]

Hi FloraiPuyal,
I appreciate your intentions and wishes to explore the unknown side of science. If you can reach the position to prepare sppech for the Noble laurette ceremony, I will appreciate it. Before going ahead to such high level of macro-micro level physics, parallel universe etc etc, why can't you explain the very simple question put forward by me based on Newtons law of gravity. I also admire the high level of thinking our great Indian thinkers like Buddha and ThiruMoolar, Many Tamil Saivaite literary authors (like siva Nana botham etc) had about universe and uncertainities. But astrology is somewhat different which contradicts with the basic law of gravity itself. Please read my questions given in first page and reply if you can. Let us discuss all high funda's latter.