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Thread: Sharing-IR's music-interviews-BgmClips- in web

  1. #841
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    V_S - I totally agree with everything you said, except "What is this big drama Raja is doing?". No. I don't have that in my mind at all. He does it best, but people in general seem to have the best experience with a film even with a lesser score. And even with an incredible score (as in Ninaivellam Nithya) with melodies that transcends the film and time, people could have a terrible experience and hate the film.

    I didn't say "people don't care much about Raja's background score". People don't care about background scores in general. So, nothing nullifies nothing here.

    I have said it many times. If not for Ilaiyaraaja, we wouldn't be talking about background scores as much.

    However, I, agree that I am in a great confusion. I am trying to understand. I keep asking these questions to myself. I post them on my blog expecting to have such arguments from readers, so that I can have clarity.

    And, in my opinion, A.R.Rahman doesn't give "just right" score, so I don't have to defend him at all, by writing these kind of posts.
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  3. #842
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    I think it's worthwhile to re-quote this transliteration of a post repeatedly
    (as there's a discussion again on 'good enough' score...)

    Quote Originally Posted by app_engine View Post
    Ilayaraja in 1985 interview to Kalki :

    "oru uyarndha padaththai isai amaippALArAl kedukka mudiyAthu. avanukkukketta peyar vandhu sEruvadhOdu sari. AnAl, oru sarAsari padaththai isai amaippALAn uyarththavum mudiyum; kedukkavum mudiyum"
    My 2 cent addition to the above : oru kuppaippadaththai maestro kooda kAppAththa mudiyAthu (ni nithyA)

  4. #843
    Senior Member Veteran Hubber V_S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by V_S
    just that they want to pass their 2 hours in the theatre. Because of that, we should not take them as granted and produce ordinary (in your case functional) movies. You are already saying others may not do the best way, but they are right and it is just enough. Now, think about about the above statement if the directors/music directors are doing justice, if they think like you.
    What would you say for this?

    Quote Originally Posted by sureshmehcnit
    but people in general seem to have the best experience with a film even with a lesser score. And even with an incredible score (as in Ninaivellam Nithya) with melodies that transcends the film and time, people could have a terrible experience and hate the film.
    Accepted, as there is always a saying; you cannot make a good film worse by a bad score, but at the same time, you can elevate or destroy a average/bad film by a average/bad score. There are thousands of film like NN. By film, story, screenplay, direction, acting are the main pillars. If that goes wrong, everything goes wrong. Even in acute cases like these, with Maestro's music, he has held the falling pillars numerous times, I have plenty of examples; many Mohan, Ramarajan movies. Even with all the music, if he could not support, you have to imagine, how disastrous the movie would have been. So, because of that, are you saying, we don't need good scores (as they are not mandatory for films), just optimal score is good enough? Then, again you are coming back to the same point. My first quote above answered your question already.

    As per your above quote, many people are not even interested in understanding the full film, leave alone the scores. Has all the details the director conveys has reached the audience? Please kindly check Tamil films section thread for recent 'discussion on Kamal gems'. You will know how much even we are missing. Imagine the fate of common public. If the fate of the film itself is like that, imagine the score. It will take its own time. This is again relevant to my first quote above. Directors and music directors knows this 100%. Still why do they continue to do that? That's the passion and confidence they have in us. If they do the same mistake (provide just the functional experience) what we do (ignore the scores, or don't understand the intricacies in the film), then the film will never reach to next levels.

    Ask any common people in TN, they now know what is a background score compared to 35 years before. I have witnessed many times in theatre that people whistled when a particular score was on. Can you ever imagine these things again 35 years ago. Are our music directors are not achieving slowly what they intended to. If you are comparing hindi film world (this is what you did in your post), you are absolutely wrong. They still really don't know the value of background scores. Unlucky fellows! In that way, we are all too lucky to have experienced this already.

    Quote Originally Posted by sureshmehcnit
    I didn't say "people don't care much about Raja's background score". People don't care about background scores in general. So, nothing nullifies nothing here.
    Since your recent two posts (not here, in your blog) only talked in comparison with Raja's score, it is very easy to conclude that you are saying the former.

    Quote Originally Posted by sureshmehcnit
    And, in my opinion, A.R.Rahman doesn't give "just right" score, so I don't have to defend him at all, by writing these kind of posts.
    We already talked about it quite recently from your Kathalukku Mariyaathai Vs DSR post and how you were defending. Let's leave it at that.

  5. #844
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    Suresh,

    Apologies if I came out harsh. If you are just talking loudly and your are confused whether you appreciate a particular BGM because of Raja, then your post can be looked at from a different light.

    I was talking to a set of friends, all Raja fans, a couple of weekends back and I stated my central theory: "Raja believes a lot in common man. While Raja understands that no one will understand all aspects of his music making, he is very sure that whatever emotion that he intends to convey through music will reach the audience." I further stated that many directors did not have as much faith in their audience that Raja had. Examples will be people like Balki and Balu Mahendra, while great fans of Raja, always ask him to remake something he has done earlier rather than let him make new music.

    Now, this is a very important aspect. Because if you do not believe that the audience will understand, (understand is not the right word, I should say feel) what you are doing, then you will end up giving them what you think is 'enough'. To counter Suresh's argument that 'common' audience does not understand or worry about BGM, I would say that they do. Yes, for them a Rajni movie with bad BGM or a Salman movie with crappy BGM will be a hit. But if there is a Rajni movie with top class BGM or a Salman movie with a great BGM the audience will understand that. While success or failure of a film doesn't depend on BGM, good BGM will always be appreciated even by 'common' audience.

    The reason why we are confused is that, thinking we are intelligent, we believe that others will not 'get' what the music director is doing. Ironically, Raja, who is infinitely more intelligent than us when it comes to music, believes that even the 'commonest' of the audience will get the feel that he is intending to convey. Otherwise why would he bother to give such superb music for 'Nandala' or 'Azhagarsamiyin Kudhirai'. He could have used some folk instruments and could have done with 'ASK' background. Only a genius, who believes, not in us (who think we are musically intelligent), but in a guy who doesn't even think about BGM, can give such music.
    Last edited by Sureshs65; 26th May 2012 at 11:32 AM.

  6. #845
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    V_S - "optimal score is good enough?" - Is it Good enough for the film? or Is it good enough to educate the audience who still don't pay the attention the background score deserves? I guess these are two entirely different questions. I am talking more about the former, here. Also, if you have noticed, I have always picked films that had huge impact on the audience, for such comparisons. The discussion for score of an average film or a bad film is a totally different topic.

    There is a difference between minimal score and functional score. I am talking about minimalism here. The post on Sethu was more about the significance of Silence. Even "No music" for that scene (in Sethu) might have worked is what I wanted to say, if we are concerned about whether the score is good enough "for the film". But, if there are external considerations like educating people, elevating their musical sensibilities etc., which I believe a composer always has at the back of his mind, Ilaiyaraaja's music for that scene is the one.

    Kamal Haasan, in Unnai Pol Oruvan press meet, spoke about working with Sruthi for the background score of the film. He said, "When Ilaiyaraaja came, he used to compose very minimal background score, but producers started complaining that he composes very little music for the money he charges. Then, he had to succumb to producer's demands and compose more background music. I was very happy to hear Sruthi having same views Ilaiyaraaja about the importance of minimal score". I am not able to find that indiaglitz video of that press meet now.
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  7. #846
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    Suresh,

    I think a of confusion goes away if we have an understanding of our own aesthetics. By this I mean how we perceive BGM should be. Maybe our confusion stems from there.

    Yes, there is no single 'right BGM' for the scene. What needs to conveyed can be done in multiple ways but was the BGM effective, was it something inventive or was it the same generic stuff, are some things we need to ask ourselves. For when we are not sure, we can end up thinking Naman Ojha or Murali Vijay have the same class as Tendulkar and Lara. After all there is no one 'correct way' to bat and in some matches they scores runs !!!

  8. #847
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    Sureshs65 - "By this I mean how we perceive BGM should be." That is the problem for me, you cannot give a single definition for "good background score" is. Depends on too many parameters. Hence the confusion.
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  9. #848
    Senior Member Veteran Hubber V_S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sureshmehcnit
    Even "No music" for that scene (in Sethu) might have worked is what I wanted to say, if we are concerned about whether the score is good enough "for the film"
    This I don't agree. Tere Naam didn't have music till he sees her. You mean to say, there need not be music even after he sees her? So the entire sequence right from he enters the house till he sees her dead, need not have music? I dont' think you are saying that.

    Quote Originally Posted by sureshmehcnit
    Tere Naam - Climax. Salman walks into Bhoomika’s House. The floor of the empty hall is scattered with flowers and remnants of religious rituals that seemed to have been completed minutes before. The fresh smoke coming out of Yagna Kunda suggests the blazing fire that was put off just minutes before. Everything in sight clearly tells us that some festivities have just happened there and that it could be Bhoomika’s marriage, and this thought troubles Salman, who took so much pain to meet his lady love and prove that he is cured. There is no music played in the background in this scene, not until the suspense is revealed.

    Quote Originally Posted by sureshmehcnit
    Sethu – Climax. The moment Sethu looks at the Yagna Kunda in the middle of the house, the thought is triggered in his mind and Ilaiyaraaja plays a piece on Veena that is stuck between two notes like how Sethu’s mind is stuck oscillating between two thoughts – is she or is she not married. He begins to run inside the house, passes corridors. He hits a door. In the music that plays in the moment when Sethu begins to walk even while recouping from the shock of hitting the door, every single note, every single layer of instrument seem to imply every single thought that crisscross Sethu’s mind at that point. It also intensifies the tension, suspense and gradually leads us to the final bang that hits hard to add to the shock of Sethu and us the audience. There is no music after that.
    But, in Tere Naam, though there is no music for the scene that leads to the point of revelation, there is a sentimental, somber alaap played to intensify the pain and squeeze tears out of every one in the audience when Salman cries.
    This is what you wrote in your blog.

    1. There is music in Sethu when he enters her house, searches for her, till he sees her dead. Once he sees her dead there is no music after that. Is this correct?

    2. In Tere Naam, you were saying, there is no music when he enters her house, searches for her, till he sees her dead. Once he sees her dead, there is music. Is this correct?

    You are asking which one is correct or preferrable and also putting another question, if Maestro would have done the latter (2), would it not have caused same impact or would we not have appreciated? Is that your question?.

    That's where experience counts. Maestro will never do the latter (2). When you are in motion searching for something, the music should tell that, unless you are running with fast footsteps alone can indicate the tension. Here is not running, he is moving fast and also wanted to see her desperately. Why would there be silence? Manasu kedanthu thudikkuthu. Lot of thoughts pouring in his mind. Music has to build that tension and has to reflect his wavering thoughts. There should be music there. Once he sees her dead, he is almost dead (brain dead), definitely there should be silence there. How there will be music if his brain is dead?. If you have music there, you would be killing that scene. I am not saying this, because Maestro has done like that, that would be the normal and preferred way to do.

    I don't see any confusion there. Maestro's score is perfect in every sense. That's what I am concluding, since for Maestro it requires same amount of time to compose a song or a score, these instincts and precision automatically comes to him naturally. For others, the time taken to compose a song is much more. Since they were not given same time to the score, there is much possibility that it not be in perfect sync with the mood of the scene/film. Somehow they have to finish it up quickly meeting the deadline. I repeat your words, even though there are many other ways to score, Maestro has always the best/apt way to score.
    Last edited by V_S; 26th May 2012 at 09:44 PM.

  10. #849
    Senior Member Veteran Hubber V_S's Avatar
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    Maestro applies the same logic here too. A brilliant example. Please watch this Nayagan video. Nizhalgal Ravi death scene. When everyone comes to him and says 'Don't worry'. Kamal does not understand, but he only guesses there is something wrong. Watch the clip from 5:14. That's when he starts moving, where music starts. The music continues, till he walks his last step towards the body and till he opens the body. Once he opens the body, he stops the music there. But you can hear the wind gushes, clearly. Even after he sees the body, there is no music, only his cry. After giving so much time for this, he takes it higher with the music again. This is how you do and only one way to do it and only Maestro can do it!

  11. #850
    Senior Member Veteran Hubber Bala (Karthik)'s Avatar
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    If the point intended to be made or question to be asked is (if) people don't care much about BGM anyway, then the next immediate, easy and natural conclusion should be "anything goes" and it doesn't matter all that much for the film. I mean if the inference is "people liked the movie, it was a hit and this means they liked the BGM or the BGM didn't make much of a difference", it beats me why one should take the trouble of deconstructing BGM's scene by scene (like i said before, i think the practice of such rigorous deconstruction on a non-technical plane - to the level of santoor plucks indicate heart palpitations etc- is pointless and tedious after a point anyway ).
    "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"

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