View Poll Results: Do you believe in Homeopathy

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Thread: Alternative medical Therapies: science or pseudo science?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Devoted Hubber r_kk's Avatar
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    Alternative medical Therapies: science or pseudo science?

    India was/is one of the fertile grounds for alternative medicines. Even though we have very age old medical system of our own (Siddha, Ayurvedam), we had accepted new range of conventional and non-conventional medical systems from many countries and cultures. One of the highest controversial medical systems, that Indians commonly use, is homeopathy. Even though it has lost its grounds in its origin (Germany), it has flourished in India. Many state governments have Homeopathic medical colleges and hospitals with qualified Homeopatic doctors (with approved BHMS degree). India is one of the countries where every one is nearly half doctor and easily recommends medicines and consumes medicine on their own. Since homeopathic medicines are nearly harmless (whether it has any positive effect or not, that is the second question) to the patients, many quacks easily pick up this medical system and flourish with wealth. Such quacks are similar to astrologers discussing sophisticated civil engineering in the name of vaastu sastra. Any one can pick up and deceive the people.

    Before discussing this alternate medical system in scientific point of view, I have to accept that many of my honest friends had told me that they had got cure using this system. So, at this moment, I am not able to reject this system entirely as placebo effect. In this thread, I am indenting to explain how this medical system does not confirm to proven science and why the patients should not fully depend on this system in case of serious illness. Any way, after all accepting or not accepting the above facts is highly depends on individuals experience and belief.

    First, let me consolidate how homeopathy differs with basic science principle. I hope that most of you might be already aware…

    Homeopathy medicine follows the following three basic philosophies..
    1. an item which create similar symptoms of illness can cure the illness (like cure like)
    2. Vigorous shaking during dilution more effective
    3. Theory of infinite decimal (more dilution is more better)

    Let me explain first about the dilution process…
    30x: a substance were to be diluted 30 times (means one part medicine to 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 parts water)
    200C: one part medicine in 10 ^^400 molecules of water (or 1 followed by 400 zeroes).

    What is the meaning of "like cure like". Let me explain with two simple examples.
    If Cobra’s poison lead to bleeding through skin other symptom like plague, then dilute the snake poison to 30X or 100X and give it to the Plague patient.

    If Arsenic creates white patches in skin like Vitiligo(Lukoderma), then diluted arsenic solution (30X or 100X) may help the skin to restore the color.


    This concept is the fundamental concept of Homeopathy.

    Avogadro’s number: equal volume of any two gas under same temperature and pressure will have same number of molecules. If we accept conventional law, one single molecule can be found in 6.0221367x10^^23. That means any dilution beyond 12C or 24X may not have any original molecule at all. If we have to take even 1 molecule of real medicine in 30x medicine, really we have to drink 7,874 gallons of the solution. This would be roughly equivalent to a container 30 million times bigger than the Earth. (Mathematics below)

    The above numbers are really threatening and make me skeptic about homeopathic medicines. There was a scientific verification program conducted by BBC using samples of homeopathic medicine and normal water. The tests were conducted on human tissues by two scientists who were not informed before about the nature of liquid they are testing (medicine or water). You will find the results are astonishing…

    For more information…
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon...meopathy.shtml


    Mathematic below:

    Avogadro number 6.022*10^^23 mole in gram scale or Loschmidt’s Constant LC=2.686x10^^23 per m^^3.

    1 molecule in n th centi-decimal dilution can be written as follows.
    C(n) = (1 mol / 100 mol)^^n


    So, to find one particle in 1000 particle of C30 homeopathic medicine (!), the volume of gas/liquid required can be written as

    C(30)^^-1 / LC * 1/1000 = 3.722 x 10^^34 liters

    So gallons of water required to make such medicine = 7.874 x10^^33


    Dilution Factor Decimal Scale(1:10) Centesimal Scale(1:100)
    1: 10 1x
    1: 100 2x 1c
    1: 1000 3x
    1: 10000 4x 2c
    1: 100000 5x
    1: 1000000 6x 3c
    1: 10000000 7x
    1: 100000000 8x 4c
    1: 1000000000 9x
    1: 10000000000 10x 5c
    1: 100000000000 11x
    1: 1000000000000 12x 6c
    1: 10000000000000 13x
    1: 100000000000000 14x 7c
    1: 1000000000000000 15x
    1: 10000000000000000 16x 8c
    1: 100000000000000000 17x
    1: 1000000000000000000 18x 9c
    1: 10000000000000000000 19x
    1: 100000000000000000000 20x 10c
    1: 1000000000000000000000 21x
    1: 10000000000000000000000 22x 11c
    1: 100000000000000000000000 23x
    1: 1000000000000000000000000(Avogadros Number) 24x 12c
    Beyond this dilution ratio, even one molecule of the original medicine, in 1 lit of diluted solution is nearly impossible. If we accept this dilution as medicine, all the water in oceans and lakhs can be considered as some kind of medicine.
    1: 10000000000000000000000000 25x
    1: 100000000000000000000000000 26x 13c
    1: 1000000000000000000000000000 27x
    1: 10000000000000000000000000000 28x 14c
    1: 100000000000000000000000000000 29x
    1: 1000000000000000000000000000000 30x 15c


    Just imagine potencies of 30c, 200c, 1M, 10M, 1MM ... it would even be difficult to count zeros !!!

    (I request hubbers to write article on pseudo scientific or non conventional medical systems, like Reiki, Sakthipat or healing touch, magnetic therapies etc etc)
    Netrikan thirapinum kutram kutrame...

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  3. #2
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    I have tried homeopathy, I don't know if it helped or not! but probably didn't harm either.
    Well, Homeopathy and Ayurveda are external medicine systems.But about Reiki, which is just another form of pranayama, is different.I was into yoga sometime back, I can tell confidently that all breathing exercises helped me and probably was at my healthiest when doing them.
    Everything else is BS. aura, magnet therapy, urine therapy! etc

  4. #3
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    I've been taking homoeopathy medicines(whenever a need arose) right from my childhood & i would say that it is very effective but takes some time to cure... I've also tried ayurveda once as I couldn't a good homoeopath & it too worked great for me...

    I would say that both ayurveda & homoeopathy are holistic medicines...they give slow but long lasting cure... These medicines work by improving your immunity,therby making ur body stronger to fight the disease... whereas allopathy works by just destroying the cells(or whatever they call it) that contain the bacteria(or whatever it is) that causes the sickness...This is the reason Y we get instant results in allopathy... This is what my belief is... & it's a beauty to see how well homoeopaths & Ayurveda practitioners are able to diagnose most diseases without the use of all the modern devices used by allopaths...
    “The real contest is always between what you've done and what you're capable of doing. You measure yourself against yourself and nobody else.” - Geoffrey Gaberino

  5. #4
    Senior Member Regular Hubber aravindhan's Avatar
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    Re: Alternative medical Therapies: science or pseudo science

    Quote Originally Posted by r_kk
    India is one of the countries where every one is nearly half doctor and easily recommends medicines and consumes medicine on their own. Since homeopathic medicines are nearly harmless (whether it has any positive effect or not, that is the second question) to the patients, many quacks easily pick up this medical system and flourish with wealth.
    True, but this is illegal. In India, you must have a recognised degree in homeopathy from an accredited college in order to be able to practice as a homeopath. I think the course has to be at least three years long in order to gain recognition. So the procedure is much more rigorous here than it is in some parts of the West, where people do a three-month course and then become homeopaths.

    I have personally used homeopathy since my early childhood. I am very severely allergic to penicilin, sulpha- drugs, chloro- drugs, and most other strong medicines (and some weak ones, such as aspirin and ibuprofen), and homeopathy is quite often the only really viable course of treatment for me. It usually worked about as well against my illnesses as allopathy did against my sister's.

    However, the scientific evidence for its validity is very scarce. There are two major scientific problems with homeopathy. The first is - as rk_k points out, that its theories make no sense at all in the light of our current understanding of science. Homeopathy says that water has a "memory", which is "imprinted" with the image of the molecules dissolved in it. This memory remains even after you dilute the solution so much that the molecules themselves are no longer present. The idea of this type of memory flatly contradicts modern science's understand of the nature of atoms and molecules. In addition, it begs the question of why it is only the molecules of the dissolved medicine that are imprinted in the water - water naturally has a lot of impurities and other dissolved substances present, logically, those should be "imprinted" too.

    Of course, if we could prove that homeopathy actually worked, this objection would obviously become redundant. But it's here that we run into the second problem - homeopathy has never been shown to work in a scientifically acceptable way. A study published in the Lancet a month ago, analysed a large number of past experimental studies on the effectiveness of homeopathy. The authors concluded that the studies which showed a better-than-placebo result were the least rigorous methodologically, and the most rigorous studies showed nothing better than a placebo effect. From this, they concluded that homeopathy is unscientific rubbish.

    This is not as clear cut as it may seem, however. It has been pointed out that the key problem with most studies (particularly the ones used by the Lancet) is that they are independent lab-based tests. As a result, they do not take into account how homeopathy is actually used clinically by its practitioners, which makes them less reliable. It is also a valid point that the subject is so emotionally charged that it is difficult to find a study which was actually conducted from a dispassionate, neutral perspective - most people studying the topic already have very strong views on the validity of homeopathy, and that's not the best way to do science.

    This paper by Klaus Linde and others provides a very good overview of the studies that have been conducted (up to 2001). It gives a good idea of the problems that one faces in scientifically testing the validity of homeopathy:
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/content...2-6882-1-4.pdf

  6. #5
    Senior Member Devoted Hubber r_kk's Avatar
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    Thanks Aravindan for the detail post. The web link you had given is quite useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by abbydoss1969
    But about Reiki, which is just another form of pranayama, is different.I was into yoga sometime back, I can tell confidently that all breathing exercises helped me and probably was at my healthiest when doing them.
    Reiki is much different from Pranayamam or Meditation or Massage or any kind of physical or chemical phenomenon. It is a supernatural or spiritual phenomenon. The basis can be explained in a simple way, as follows.
    1. Persons get disease when their internal energy (called “ki”) got disrupted.
    2. The universe is assumed to be filled with energy which can not be detected by normal scientific process but the reiki (spirit life force in Japanese) master can channel the universal energy to patient via air (without touching).
    3. As long as the patient is not resisting the flow of spiritual energy, the patient can replenished with universal energy and get cured.

    I included Reiki in this thread since the above process is beyond any proven science and many quacks (any one with enough money to pay to master of this tactics, can become master within few weeks) are making this method very popular these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by dev
    I would say that both ayurveda & homoeopathy are holistic medicines...they give slow but long lasting cure... These medicines work by improving your immunity,therby making ur body stronger to fight the disease... whereas allopathy works by just destroying the cells(or whatever they call it) that contain the bacteria(or whatever it is) that causes the sickness...This is the reason Y we get instant results in allopathy... This is what my belief is... & it's a beauty to see how well homoeopaths & Ayurveda practitioners are able to diagnose most diseases without the use of all the modern devices used by allopaths...
    Hi Dev,
    I have lot of contradictions with many of your statements (marked in red by me) you have made. Since you told it as “belief” I don’t want to make any comment on it. I will try to explain my understanding little later when I have some time.


    Netrikan thirapinum kutram kutrame...

  7. #6
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    Yep,that is what I've heard & I believe is... If you happen to have a different view,pls do post it... would be happy to learn more abt it ...

    "long lasting cure" -yes,I believe so... I've seen my bro suffering form allergy of some kind that make him sneeze too often(esp when he has his shower!!!) & was taking allopathy medicines for a long time...he'll get instant results but it wouldn't last even for a few months... he then tried homoeopathy & he has seen good results... As far as I know, he got rid of it almost completely & I've not seen it repeat after more than a couple of years now... I too have some personal experiences of getting cured of some complex health issues & there are a handful of my friends & relatives who got rid of their recurring health problems with the help of homoeopathy...

    & the bacteria thing...I'm not a good science student...So am not sure as to what the word I should've actually used...that Y the few words in the brackets...

    " homoeopaths"... This is the word I use to refer to a homoeopathy practitioners...

    "are able to diagnose most diseases without the use of all the modern devices"

    Yes... they are able to diagnose most diseases by touch,sight & thru the symptoms... I still can remember my homoeopath(!!!) asking me a list of almost 15-20 que to diagnose the right type of fever... It is very rarelt that they ask for a scan or Xray etc etc report even for a bit complex preoblems... This is my personal experience again...

    Also,I've heard that accupressure practitioners would be able to diagnose looking at you eyeballs alone... I don't have any personal experience in this & I'm not sure how far it is true... If you know more on this aswell, pls do post it sometime...
    “The real contest is always between what you've done and what you're capable of doing. You measure yourself against yourself and nobody else.” - Geoffrey Gaberino

  8. #7
    Senior Member Regular Hubber aravindhan's Avatar
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    Reiki

    Reiki is an extremely new system - it was founded in 1914 by Usui Mikao (often referred to as Dr. Usui Mikao, but that is misleading since his doctrate was in literature, not medicine). The story of its founding is quite interesting.

    Apparently, when Usui Mikao was 40 or so (around 1900), he fell seriously ill during an epidemic. When he was ill, he had a "vision" of Mahavairochana Buddha, who gave him esoteric instruction. Unfortunately for Mikao, he belonged to a sect that worshipped Amitabha Buddha, and they were so outraged by his claims that he was expelled. He then abandoned Mahayana and become a Vajrayana Buddhist, and studied Vajrayana teachings for many years.

    In 1914, he went to Mount Kurama and meditated there for several months, at the end of which he received a "mystical revelation" on how reiki (literally, "spiritual energy") could be used to heal people of all their problems. He opened his first clinic in 1922, and began to train others in 1924. The centre he established in Japan still exists, although it is apparently quite obscure.

    One of Mikao's first students was a retired naval officer, Chujiro Hayashi. Hayashi in turn trained a Japanese American lady by the name of Hawayo Takata, who popularised reiki in the US after the Second World War. This "Americanised" reiki (which is different in many ways from what Mikao's Japanese centre practices today) then spread to the rest of the world. So it is not quite correct to think of reiki as an ancient Japanese method of healing, as many Indians seem to do.

    In a final ironic twist, a Japanese American who had learned reiki in the US took it back to Japan in the 1980s, and started a new series of reiki centres there. These have gained some popularity amongst the young, and are actually much better known today than the original centre which Usui Mikao established.

  9. #8
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    [quote="r_kk"][tscii]Thanks Aravindan for the detail post. The web link you had given is quite useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by abbydoss1969
    But about Reiki, which is just another form of pranayama, is different.I was into yoga sometime back, I can tell confidently that all breathing exercises helped me and probably was at my healthiest when doing them.
    Reiki is much different from Pranayamam or Meditation or Massage or any kind of physical or chemical phenomenon. It is a supernatural or spiritual phenomenon. The basis can be explained in a simple way, as follows.
    1. Persons get disease when their internal energy (called “ki”) got disrupted.
    2. The universe is assumed to be filled with energy which can not be detected by normal scientific process but the reiki (spirit life force in Japanese) master can channel the universal energy to patient via air (without touching).
    3. As long as the patient is not resisting the flow of spiritual energy, the patient can replenished with universal energy and get cured.

    I included Reiki in this thread since the above process is beyond any proven science and many quacks (any one with enough money to pay to master of this tactics, can become master within few weeks) are making this method very popular these days.

    Well, you have established the differences bet Reiki and Pranayama.
    My point was the weakness in chi or qui, which causes illness,
    can be cured by directing the pranic force ourselves towards our own body or other's body.
    I think it is more prevalent in chinese tai chi kind of exercises where breathing is important and you have to imagine a lot of channels in the body through which the energy flow should be visualised.
    It is there in Indian pranayama also, where with every inhalation you imagine /visualise an energy in golden/ white colour flowing from outside sources , into the body.and store it in some part of the body like the lower abdomen.
    With every exhalation , you visualise, the energy flowing to wherever you direct it to, like heart or any other part from where it is stored in the lower abdomen.
    There are so many rituals connected with these practices.

    In that sense only, I connected both Reiki and Pranayama.
    But science has no way of knowing these energy channels, so they rubbish even Tai Chi , Qi Qong breathing exercises, along with real rubbish like gem therapy,magnet therapy etc

  10. #9
    Senior Member Devoted Hubber r_kk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abbydoss1969
    My point was the weakness in chi or qui, which causes illness,can be cured by directing the pranic force ourselves towards our own body or other's body.
    In Indian pranayama also, where with every inhalation you imagine /visualise an energy in golden/ white colour flowing from outside sources , into the body.and store it in some part of the body like the lower abdomen.
    I have little contradictions to the similarities that you had made.

    In Pranayamam, whether one imagine the energy flow (in golden or while color) in to your body or not, the following activities are tend to happen in your body.
    1. Lungs muscles becomes more strong and inhaling or holding or Oxygen absorbing capacity increases due to proper breathing
    2. Since Oxygen content in blood increases, brain and other organs gets more energy.
    3. Imagination of energy flow or trying to be no thoughts stage, may help to calm your mind (lesser brain activities) and may provide some relief from the bodily pains.

    The above are likely to happen even if we don’t imagine all the virtual energy flow. Except the third point, Reiki can not be compared with Pranayamam. More over Pranayamam can be self practiced without paying money to any body but Reiki may require a Reiki specialist since the patients is already has damaged “chi” (energy field). Correct me if my statements are wrong.


    Netrikan thirapinum kutram kutrame...

  11. #10
    Senior Member Platinum Hubber pavalamani pragasam's Avatar
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    Talking about different therapies, rural practices are always baffling in their efficacy! For insect bites( snakes & scorpions) "manthiriththal" is the remedy! If a person has an attack of jaundice a needle is put in a vessel of water in the custody of the person doing the "manthiriththal". If small kids are frightened, become scared severely, "manthiriththal" is the cure! It is done with "viboothi", a towel, a peacock feather or a few whispered mantras. An extreme variety is the treatment of "possessed" people with "udukkadi" & a lot of barbarously cruel treatments!

    Overall conclusion is: "faith" is the crucial point in any form of treatment for best results!
    Eager to watch the trends of the world & to nurture in the youth who carry the future world on their shoulders a right sense of values.

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