Understanding "I" - Vedanta

[Shakthiprabha.]

said 1000s of times now that consciousness is an evolved effect and not the cause.

Dear Rohit,


Similarly, my dear "western" friend, western science has yetto understand that consciousness is not an effect but the un-caused cause. The consciousness you tell is called awareness in eastern science which is an effect. I tell you this a million times and unless you take the proper means you willl stillbein the illusion of beleiving your eyes like your western ancestors 300 years ago.

I understand that consciousness is not awareness.
Can It be said awareness happens because of mixture of elements in particular composition?

In the absense of such composition THE AWARENESS is lost?
IS that called LOSING OF THE 'I'ness?

If that is called losing of 'I'ness is not that state
equivalent to being inert?

If consciousness is just ENERGY with absense of awareness,
its JUST SCIENCE. Now where is GOD?

()()()

Also, reg halucination, the DIVINE DARSHAN which many saints have claimed to have had, may be just halucination?

IF someone meditate or keep thinking of something which such strong force, then dont they start halucinating the prescence of whatever they meditate?

Questions...Questions... Questions... no answers

[mahadevan]

When awareness is lost, it is akin to a comatose state, when you come out of it you cannot recollect what was happening. If complete absence of conciousness/awareness can result in loss of 'I', it is a state that can never be perceived. If it is percived then there was not a complete blockdown of awareness.

Inerteness has more to do with not acting rather than witnessing, you can witness every thing but remain in a state of complete inaction.

Shakthiprabha wrote: Also, reg halucination, the DIVINE DARSHAN which many saints have claimed to have had, may be just halucination?
Could be true, but at the same time it could also be perceptions of a different dimension. Meditation could possibly elicit such capabilities ! (only if we can know the truth)

Shakthiprabha wrote: Questions...Questions... Questions... no answers
If Questions...Questions.....adinfinitum, we may find an answer, you are absolutely correct , only an eternal quest for questioning can reveal the answers.

We are here not to respect the established doctrines but to question them so that we can refine them. Knowledge is for our liberation not for our obeisance to it (the latter is what we follow mostly in our Indian society ).

[mahadevan]

Rohit Wrote: Despite my clear hint to you about the utter impossibility of any creation or evolution by an absolutely inert, inactive, stagnant, unchanging, immutable "Self/Atman/Brahman", you have completely failed to grasp it and violated the necessary model truth that there is no question whatsoever of it ever becoming a cause of anything.


Evolution is not necessarily against creation, though it is against a very specific design of creationism advocated by certain doctrines.
For things to evolve it must start at non zero, so creation of some sort should have preceded that. That begets the simple question who created that creator ? Hey the answer to that is what the eastern philosophers say as 'Nothing'
It is as difficult to me as it is to you to accept that everything came from Nothing, Ironically that Nothing is also given a name defeating the whole purpose of itself.

If we keep asking questions after questions, we may get closer to the truth, but some where along that path most people stop and jump into a conclusion, not because they are any closer to the truth than they were before, but they possibly reached the limit of the their intellectual capabilities. Then they propose their theories which are nothing but the stark reminder of our (human) limited capabilities. Irony is most others call it sacred and follow it. "If you cannot dazzle with your brilliance, just baffle with bullshit" !

I belive it is better if we call that as 'Unknown'

[Rohit]

Inerteness has more to do with not acting rather than witnessing, you can witness every thing but remain in a state of complete inaction.

Yes, all actvities in the brain do not necessarily involve physical action by the body and still the brain witnesses events or event experiences. During the whole event or event experience, memory (the recording activity in the brain) plays an integral part in the whole process even when the body is in a state of complete inaction - like in deep sleep.

Evolution is not necessarily against creation.

There is an absolute impossibility of objective creation without action. Even a mental and non-objective creation would undoubtedly require a change from the state of mental inaction to the state of mental action, which only reaffirms my assertion that there is no possibility of creation or evolution by an absolutely idle, inert, inactive, stagnant, unchanging, immutable....... "Self/Atman/Brahman". Else, it would violate the necessary model truth and therefore there is no question whatsoever of it ever becoming a cause of anything.

I belive it is better if we call that as 'Unknown'

That is the precise position an agnostic would take. And, in fact, an agnostic position may be a much more reputable position for the believers than the theistic position that inherently leads them to blindly believe in completely unfounded, unsupported, inconsistent, non-corresponding and contradictory beliefs.

Mahadevan, if you haven’t figured it out yet, this whole debate is about Advaita Vedanta, and if you are not sure of what this Advaita is all about, please do not formally mix it with the contradictory Dvaitic (Dualist => creator + created) doctrine or beliefs, as this may lead to a hopeless and abortive divergence from Advaita to Dvaita - though, as clearly pointed out, poor Pradheep has already slipped and plunged into it, but unwarily and heedlessly.

To both Shakthiprabha and Mahadevan,

If you read my previous posts in this thread, I have briefly touched upon the state of coma and various other states where and when the "I/Self" completely ceases to exist and disappears literally into nothing. And if there are possible and known states and conditions where and when "I/Self" ceases to exist and disappears into nothing then the "I/Self" is undoubtedly proven to be an impermanent or temporal condition, empty or devoid of any permanent reality, which is completely contradictory to, and in complete negation of, "Self/Atman/Brahman" of Advaita, which consequently proves both the premise and conclusion of Advaita Vedanta utterly untenable or false.

Please read a much more detailed discussion on "Nothing" and its precise definition and meaning in my proofs in a clear and easily understandable format, proving that no creation or evolution of any kind by or through a pre-existing, supernatural, divine entity of any form or function is ever possible; as, the absolute probability for the existence of such supernatural, divine entity itself is an absolute "0". http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewt...=asc&start=561

Yes, of course, no one can ever stop anyone believing in whatever they want to, even if they have no rational base whatsoever to do so; as, it is entirely dependent on the cerebral activities, or more precisely the lack/absence of it, in one's own brain and on nothing else.

[pradheep]

Dear Sakthi Prabha, Mahadevan and Rohit,

Rohit has merely put down mankind merely a puppet of fate. Here fate means, like a robot designed to act only to its electronic components. A robot executes its action based on the firing of its electronical components. there is a no second factor in it. It has no free will.

A human is not a robot designed to act based on the nueronal firing like the electronics in a robot. A human has free thinking. this free thinking cannot happen if there is only neuronal firing.

We can agree to rohit's arguments if he says is dictated merely by the neurons designed wiring and firing pattern. The way he thinks and acts is helplessly because of his brain components. If he ability to think beyond it means he has a second factor , other than the brain components to excute his free thinking.

|I hope I conveyed the message to you. This is how awareness and consciosuness differs. awareness is an expression of the consciousness based on the brain, but not consciosuness.

Awareness is the way a robot acts based on the electronic components and programming. But consciousness is like the "creator" whocan only make programming decisions.

Advaita says you think you are just merethis body and mind. that is an error.the reality or Truth is that, you are not a robot , but that consciousness which is the very programmer of robot.

Advaita message is you are the programmer (consciousness) and not the programme (the robotic body).

[pradheep]

Dear Rohit
I will agree totally to your arguments if you say you are a mere robot thinking based on your brain components and you cannot watch your thoughts in your mind. You cannot watchyour thoughts because you are only thoughts in your brain, a thinking machine. You can watch your thoughts only if you are a factor different from thoughts. Hope you atleast comprehend this.

[Rohit]

Dear Pradheep,

I can clearly see how and why the constant hallucinations and sliding down the infinite spiral of regression prevents you from thinking, feeling, experiencing and remembering the reality as it is.

Creation, Intelligent Designer - ID, Human Toys - Pradheep, do you remember you referring humans as toys in "Does God Exist?" thread?, of course not, how would you? everyone now knows that you have serious problems with your memory - , Human Robots etc. are precisely the terms used by the creationists like yourself to propagate their delusions of "creation" and "intelligent design - ID" while completely forgetting that freewill, autonomous thinking etc. are completely contradictory to their thoughtless theories of Creation and Intelligent Design - ID.

It is really laughable when a person like you who has deluded himself to such an extent of believing himself as created/designed "toys, robots etc." and who has totally abandoned the process of autonomous thinking and of feeling, experiencing and remembering anything correctly - behaves exactly like a taking robot without autonomous thinking ability or freewill and trapped himself in a vicious cycle of infinite regress.

The idea of human puppets, toys, robots, design, programming, programmer are only applicable to the deluded creationists like you and your American friends. The beliefs of creation and intelligent design of human toys/robots only applies to creationists like you who cannot comprehend the process of absolute evolution and therefore constantly needs a separate creator and/or Intelligent Designer/Programmer - ID for maintaining their beliefs of human design.

While there is no such thing as design when it comes to the absolute evolution of the universes and life itself. There is no need whatsoever for the involvement of any imaginary creators or designers when an absolute, uncaused evolution of the universe and then life sets itself in process. The billions of years of such uncaused and progressive evolutionary process has resulted in fully aware and conscious human beings and other life forms exactly as we know them, neither any less nor any more. There is absolutely no need for an imaginary external entity as, the very consciousness has evolved as an effect through the evolutionary process; and precisely for these reasons, it is known as absolute evolution and not creation, which, due to suppressed and dormant minimal activity in your brain, you cannot grasp it as its is. Precisely the way your brain has completely failed to grasp and understand that mirages, heat, light, sunlight etc. are nothing but the effects and deluded itself to an extent of hallucination where it started to perceive an entity that does not/cannot exist by default. Like I said before, what you experience as unconditioned consciousness is nothing but the dormant and latent neurological activities in the brain which manifests itself as unconditioned consciousness - as an evolved effect.

Anyway, you might feel lucky when your growing son gains the privilege - like you did - of learning all about Intelligent Designer - ID - i.e. rebooting of his already corrupted operating system with yet another corrupted system - and how "He" has designed human believer toys/robots like him, his parents and their American believer friends.

While the uncaused absolute evolution of human allows them to field program their brains and boot them from a variety of operating systems selected either by their parents or by their religious gurus. The variety of operating systems available to them only under the format of absolute evolution may go something like this:

- Amazing Delusions Of Advaita For Human Toys
- Intelligent Designer - ID For Human Robots
- Fantastic Quran For Human Fanatics
-
- etc.......

While on the other hand, a few, when they grow up, consciously reject the old and primitive operating systems as listed above and choose to reboot their brains with a much more advanced and evolved system:

- Rational, Logical And Scientific Thinking For Conscious and Aware Humans.

So, the process of absolute evolution provides you with a variety of choices of operating systems that are field programmable, either by yourself or through your religious gurus. The choice is yours and only yours which operating system to use, but all are available only under the brand of Absolute Evolution of the Universe and Humans and they are not created or designed by a Creator or an Intelligent Designer, who, by default, does not/cannot exist.

Untill you grasp the precise process of absolute evolution, use corrupted version of Amazing Delusions Of Advaita For Human Toys as your operating system and keep going round the circle while reading, remembering, grasping and then understanding and realising precisely what I said, what the brain really is:

So, either ways, you are trapped and you remain trapped into a constantly oscillatory and vicious situation. There is no way out until and unless you start to think, feel, experience and remember the reality as it is.

Till then, have fun hallucinating and sliding down the vicious spiral of infinite regress while trying to remember your current regression count. Since, you have remained utterly oblivious in recognising the absolute impossibility of an absolutely idle, inert, inactive, stagnant, unchanging, immutable entity creating or involving in evolution; and as you have also demonstrated a five fold intensity of Panchvaitic (Pentaist) = body + perceiver + awareness + consciousness + toy/robot in your regressions, your regression count shoots up by 8 and goes to 2N+118

[pradheep]

Dear Rohit
As usual you have smartly evaded to address the real question and brought in the intelligent design concept. I have not brought here the concept intelligent design. In intelligent design concept,there is a creator who is intelligent and created and intelligent design or anobject. they are two(dualistic). What I talk about is advaita, there is no creator and a creation. They are one and the same. It is an illusion (maya) to think they are two (duality).

Why the illusion?. Because like you Rohit, you consider that you are the throughts. If you can witness your thoughts, then you understand that you are the one who created (apparently) created yourself and the world.

Rohit, you cannot understand all this because you arejust a robotic machine which cannot witness itself and have no control over the thoughts and mind. Control over the mind comes only when you are different from the thoughts. When you think your are only thoughts , the brain and the body that feeds the brain to thinks thoughts, what is there to witness for you?.

You are just a robot that is created (intelligently ofcourse) and die (dis-assembled) one day.

[Rohit]

What I talk about is advaita, there is no creator and a creation.

Yes, I can clearly see chilling shivers running down your spine with just a single mention of "Intelligent Designer - ID" in my post and see you fast retracting from all your claims on creator and creation. Yes, precisely this I wanted you to do, not because it is not relevant to Advaita, but simply because it is standing right in front of Advaita - ID, The One (Creator) with a Second (Created- Physical World + life). So, you must refute both the ID - The One (Creator) along with the Second (Created - Physical World + life)

Well done Pradheep. You have now changed for better by accepting the fact I have been stating countless times in all my posts that there is no question whatsoever of any creator or creation when it comes to the uncaused, absolute evolution of the universe and life.

Now under the vast umbrella of uncaused, absolute evolution of the universe and life - i.e. the URR format - the base worldview of all worldviews - all mutually contradicting formats can be conceptualised, formulated and argued upon. However, as the ID and Advaita formats are currently being argued upon, let us check your contentions against the ID.

As it happens, there is a problem when you retract from your claims on creator and creation. You are creating even bigger problems for Advaita by changing your nature every now and then. Any changes in your nature instantly falsifies Advaita as it directly transmutes into the changes in the "Brahman" it"Self", which is strictly prohibited by the Advaita hypothesis itself; and therefore, it must strictly remain unchanging. Thus, by introducing changes, you have already falsified Advaita, generating permanent flip-flops in your regressions.

Just to offer you a helping hand here, I shall ask you a simple question, which you must answer. The consequences of not answering the question are even grimmer, proving that you do lie, which would instantly disqualify Advaita as a candidate worthy of any further discussion under the umbrella - The base worldview of all worldviews.

Here is the question: Can you Pradheep lie, in whatever way you can, and tell us that you are not lying by withdrawing your ever-changing claims on created evolution by an absolutely idle, inert, inactive, stagnant, unchanging, immutable entity you have been hallucinating as "Atman/Self/Brahman"?

Whatever answer you may come up with, I am sure you would not want to include this in your regression counts. But, unfortunately this amounts to a regression of very serious intensity and would instantly raise your regression count by 10.

Below are a few quotes from your quoted article and your posts, which must be supported by your answer to the above question.

Even in this technological age, this Truth gives unflinching light to guide us in our evolution

Vedanta says that understanding our own physical body and mind with the guidance of our intellect will suffice to know the "Truth".

There was a question that arose "Who Am I?". The "I" caused the creation of conditioned consciousness

But consciousness is like the "creator" who can only make programming decisions.

What I talk about is advaita, there is no creator and a creation.

Well we do not need any proof of the gross body and the subtle body of mind and intellect. We know we have a physical body (gross body) and also the mind and intellect (subtle body).

Rest of the beings are sort of pre-programmed. But human have free will

The case study:

-An Alzheimer patient completely lost his memory and wouldn't know or remember "Who or what it is". The doctors had strictly warned the patient not to waste any energy but take full rest and remain utterly idle, inert, inactive, stagnant, unchanging, immutable; or else, it would instantly cease to exist. The patient couldn’t remember doctors' warning and at midnight got up from the bed and went on labouring and then writing some gobbledegook. The exercise of midnight labouring and then writing some gobbledegook went on for several nights before finishing it with the title "conditioned consciousness" - for Advaitic delusions.

Several psychiatrists later examined the gobbledegook written by the patient. They all arrived at a unanimous agreement that the patient was not only suffering from a sever form of Alzheimer disease but from a sever form of hallucinating, psychotic disease as well.

Now coming back to the ID, before you can even attempt to reject you being not a human robot, created by the "Intelligent Designer - ID, who apparently defies the very "Atman" of your "Self", how would you refute the ID itself my dear thoughtless and memoryless friend? You might have known by now that it is widely proclaimed by the ID believers worldwide that "ID" has intelligently created a programme routine that simulates "Atman/Soul" and which is installed in all robots like you and your robot friends. If you cannot refute the ID, you have no option but to accept the ID as your sole creator who has given you the free gift of everything you need to carryon with your delusions and hallucinations of Advaita that you have been undergoing for so long.

So, you have only one choice to escape from the clutches of the ID and that is to elaborate in as much detail as you can on how would you go about refuting the ID and save your "Amazing Delusions of Advaita for Toys".

If your refutation is based on your specifically personalised experiences, which you cannot memorise and recall anyway, then you are facing seriously formidable and impregnable problems against the countless counter claims made by famous western religious personalities of their commemorated experiences of witnessing the "Intelligent Designer - ID" Itself. Then how would you refute their claims of commemorated experiences, my dear thoughtless and confused friend?

So, all in all you are still plunged into perceiving enormous multiplicity of things, which can only happen if you are deluding yourself to the extremes so that you can make hopeless and futile attempts to deny them even when you are engrossed in nothing but perceiving and witnessing just "illusory" multiplicity, again falsifying Advaita. This might only serve you as a psychotic help in emotionally sustaining your delusions and blind beliefs in Advaita, which has no bearing whatsoever on the factual reality as it is.

With this, you are demonstrating a multi fold intensity in your regressions of body + mind + perceiver + awareness + consciousness + toys + technology + intelligent creator + intelligent designs + objects + dualists + illusions of robotic machines + illusions of robots that are created intelligently + rest of the beings etc.., which adds at least 14 counts to your ever multiplying and increasing regressions.

So, until you grasp the precise process of uncaused, absolute evolution, keep using the corrupted operating system - "Amazing Delusions Of Advaita For Human Toys" - and keep going round the circle while reading, remembering, grasping and then understanding and realising precisely what I said, what the brain really is:

So, either ways, you are trapped and you remain trapped into a constantly oscillatory and vicious situation. There is no way out until and unless you start to think, feel, experience and remember the reality as it is.

Till then, have fun hallucinating and sliding down the vicious spiral of infinite regress while trying to remember your current regression count. Since, you have remained utterly oblivious in recognising the absolute impossibility of an absolutely idle, inert, inactive, stagnant, unchanging, immutable entity creating or involving in evolution; and as you have also demonstrated a multi fold intensity in your regressions, your regression count shoots up by 24 and goes to 2N+142

[pradheep]

Dear Rohit
Couple of years back i used to write in forumhub debating with missionary guys. Whenever they are cornered they would say, Watch Out! Satan in the form of Pradheep is writing in the internet.

You are no different from the missionary. Whenever youa re cornered, you call me under hallucination or Alzhemier or schizophrenic.

Rohit, continue to be a missionary.

But I pity you, atleast the missionaries come with a God who created heavem hell and man, just to punish and play a childish game.

Your arguements are pitiable than them. Soonya. Man! Nothing can only be created from nothing. Your brain is also nothing, Soonya and that is why nothing solid....only soonya vaadam.

Kids atleast buy missionary stories. Your soonya vada not only kids , even those in mental hospital would not buy. if you cant address and explain soonya-vaada, atleast learn from others. Do keep counting how many times your soonya brain being banged.


Dear Sakthi prabha

if interested we an continue discussions on "I".