Understanding "I" - Vedanta

[pradheep]

Dear Rohit,

You have now clearly accepted, acknowledged and proved that Humans can do literally nothing without the brain.

You have missed to understood what i have been explaining.

I never said that the organ brain is not required. It is needed, otherwise other animals and plants could undergo Self-realization. Only man can , because the apparatus or instument he has has evolved to do that and that is the purpose of evolution. as you might recollect my example, the sunlight is every where , but if it has to be foccused on a point then a lens or a mirror is needed. The mirror or lens is a medium or apparatus or instrument. Lenses and mirrors differ in their perfection to focus, same way the best perfected lens or medium is the human brain. Sunlight is unconditional , but the concentrated light or reflected light is conditional light. In neurological terms , the conditioned consciousness I call it as a awareness and the unconditional consciousness as pure consciousness or Brahman or Atman.

When it (the brain) comes back into thinking state, it recalls witnessed events from the memory, which itself is an important part and neurological function of the brain.

Memory itself is a thought, but not witnessing. Now Rohit clearly understand this. Witnessing is always there. But we do not experience it because we are over shadowed by thoughts. The moment we reduce the thoughts, we experience witnessing. So witnessing is not a brain process. That witness is the "Present". The moment I say "I" witnessed, it is a past action and it becomes a thought. This is why to "Be" means to witness and you cannot articulate it.

Now you will know this witnessing only by subsiding the thoughts almost to zero. Then you witness this whole body including the brain, the thinking organ. That state which is not localized in brain or dependant on brain is pure-unconditional-Consciosuness.

When the consciousness is "experienced" through a body organ, it is called awareness. Now this awareness is mixed up with thoughts ,which is called mind. If you can seprate the thoughts from awareness , then you experience the pure awareness and that trasncends to pure consciousness.

This is the stages of all spiritual practice, whether it is vedic or buddhist or any other. All spiritual practices are oriented to seperate the thoughts from the awareness.

Rohit, you cannot understand unless you do the seperation of thoughts from the awareness. You are trying to intellectually understand it without experiencing. Hope by this time you would have joined some meditation program and is trying to watch your own thoughts.

Without you experiencing this yourself, you will think all those who meditate are in delusion and confusion borne out of self-deception.

Dear Rohit,
I am glad at least you try now to write and criticize what I explain and so I have room to explain. previously you would never give a chance and just say I am in delusions. Thank you very much for giving me the oppurtunity to explain and counter argue. Thank you once again. Keep it up.

[Rohit]

Memory itself is a thought, but not witnessing.

Please try reading, remembering, grasping and then understand and realise this:

An active brain is not just memory, but the one and only unseen witness/seer/experiencer/thinker/knower of the entire phenomenon and much more.

Anyway, Pradheep please carryon with your self-deceptive experiences without remembering - storing and retaining in, and then recalling from, the memory.

I guess, you must be in a very heavy meditative - thoughtless and memoryless - state while writing your above post about your experiences , else how could you write anything about your experiences - the neurological activities in the brain - without remembering - storing and retaining in, and then recalling from, the memory? My dear Pradheep, you are unwarily but definitely turning yourself into a ***** of the first rank.

Yes Pradheep, precisely that, what I meant was/is your consolation out of all this, quickly turning you into a memoryless state, now posting stories of all your phantasms.

[pradheep]

Dear Rohit
You are still deeply plunged in the fundamental flaw of not understanding the fact that brain is nothing but bio-molecules reacting with each other. There are millions of neuronal firing in the brain, which are just bio-chemical reactions. How can reacting molecules think or perceive?. The is a perceiver which is different from the reacting bio-molecules. Your claim that the reacting bio-molecules all join together and start to think.

This is same as some one saying that, a computer that is made of millions of molecules react with each other when electricity passes through them. Because of this chemcial reactions taking place in the computer, the computer enjoys the color and sound it produces.

Understand the computer merely produces all the color and sounds. it is not the computer that is aware of the color and sounds. A person who is different from the computer witnesses all these events.

The same example example could be said about a movie porjected on a screen. it is light interactions with the film that gives the images. Though the images talk, run and go around, they are not aware of it. It is a person who is different from it witnessess these facts.

Rohit, please read biochemistry and neurology books to understand that brain is made of bio-molecules. Now millions of such biochemcial reactions occur in the brain and they do not generate thinking without the witnessing.

Extend this logic to any chemical and bio-chemical reactions. You might be then possible to shed some light in your brain.

[Rohit]

Memory itself is a thought, but not witnessing.

A person who is different from the computer witnesses all these events.

Dear Pradheep,

As your brain has completely lost its ability to think, feel, experience the reality as it is and now it has degenerated even further after loosing its ability to remember, I strongly recommend you not to watch images of human brain and body on your computer screens. Also stop watching too much of television programs and other fantasy and fictional films. Your brain is getting too deluded and confused to know the actuality by watching these computer images and programs as it thinks and believes that it is witnessing itself and the body displayed on the screens, while it is still in your head and has neither disappeared into the computer or projector nor into the computer, TV or film screens.

Pradheep, first of all your brain has lost the ability to think, feel and experience correctly; and now it has also lost the ability to remember. But let me try to explain you that humans can correctly witness events or event experiences if and only if their brain is active and fully functional through properly co-ordinated neurological activities and processes and responds appropriately and correctly to all the presented stimuli. Whether it is about the viewing of the Sun, Mount Everest, the glaciers, Sun's reflections on either turbulent water streams or calm water surfaces, colours, graphical images or texts on computer/TV screens or whether it is among the billions upon billions of other events and event experiences; it is one and only the brain that does the witnessing. That is why, though utterly pointless to tell you, you have no options but to keep bringing hundreds upon hundreds of objective and subjective analogies that have no resemblance whatsoever to what you blindly think and believe them to be. Witnessing events on computer, TV or film screens is no different. The normally functioning brain is all the more neurologically active to such stimuli. But unfortunately your deluded and hallucinating brain is getting carried away by such display of images. So, please remember that it is only the neurological activities in the brain that carries out the function of witnessing these events and memory is an integral part of the entire witnessing process. Once you understand the basic principle of such witnessing process, apply your own idea of extending the logic to all other processes too of witnessing.

It is now clear that you have lost vital brain functions either due to past traumatic experiences or through constant and heavy consumption of hallucinogenic drugs or through some weird physically abusive means. Your brain is unable to remember the facts about itself and plunges itself into a vicious cycle of infinite regress. Precisely for these reasons you have kept committing the same mistake again and again of forgetting that it is the brain that does all the witnessing through a co-ordinated process of neurological activities, and memory is an integral part of the whole process.

As explained above, you have now, as you always have, already entered the vicious cycle of infinite regress. Your brain forces itself into some weird and hallucinating experiences, but it remains unable to remember anything as it is forcing itself into distorting its own memory to an extent as if there is no memory.

In that case, I would strongly recommend you to stop all your brain washing and brain damaging activities and try to learn and remember about its essential activities and different types of memory i.e. episodic memory, semantic memory etc. it uses in carrying out the entire process of witnessing, and then understand how to verify and validate it's accuracy.

Once you have stopped your brain washing and brain damaging activities and learnt and remembered the fundamentals of brain/memory functions, then I will explain you how computer works and uses the dumb electric energy to generate all these colourful graphical images and texts on the CRT, TFT, Plasma, front/back Projection etc. screens. Then, I will also explain you how only three basic colours produce millions upon millions shades of different colours with varying resolution.

If you still remain unable to think, feel, experience and remember correctly, you have no option but to go back to your good old regression cycle and up your regression counts exactly from where you left in “Do you believe in Evolution or Creation (God)?” thread, I am afraid.

Let me remind you, your last regression count was 2N+100; and with your above regressive post, your regression count goes up by one to 2N+101. Also remember that, if you fail to understand and remember all that I have explained to you so far, it will automatically increment your regression count by the intensity of your next regression. At the same time, you must remember that not only remembering but writing and posting about your self-deceptive and delusive thoughts, feelings, experiences are also the neurological activities of the brain, but, in your case, they tend to be highly deluded and distorted due to various reasons as stated above.

So, either way, you have trapped yourself into a constantly oscillatory and vicious situation, there is no way out until and unless you start to think, feel, experience and remember the reality as it is.

Till then, have fun hallucinating and sliding down the vicious spiral of infinite regress while trying to remember your current regression count, which is 2N+101.

[pradheep]

Dear rohit
Youa re talkign very superficial things here.

I am again letting you to think about when two neurons fire and give an electric impulse , they dont perceive it as a thought.

Understand modern science is still learnign about brain functions. they have still not understood anything about thoughts. They ahve not come any closer to awareness and consciousness that the vedas talk. So your talk is good enough for a science forum where they are learnign which part of brain is involved in which perceptions.

we are dealign here, who is involved in perceiving the "I". So rohit keep reading science books and discoveries and keep updated on the discoveries of brain fucntions.

Unless you purify your mind and ego , you cannot get a glimpse fo what vedanta talks.

So chant manu padme hum more and then reduce the intensity of your thoughts in your mind and so you will know you are not this mind and body but the perceiver of all this.
Good luck with your chanting.

[Rohit]

Yes Pradheep, when the brain stops serving its basic and intended functions, even the deepest and most complex things that need a fully functional brain to grasp and understand them, unfortunately look superficial, precisley as they do to you. Otherwise you would have known by now that no one in the entire history of humankind has ever denied the importance of memory as you have denied it so heedlessly and thoughtlessly.

I have said this countless times now that as your brain is deeply engrossed in all sorts of fallacies and misunderstandings on everything, misunderstanding on Advaita/Vedanta is no exception. And precisely for these reasons you always have remained incapacitated to see, grasp and understand some of the most fundamental flaws in the Advaitic premises, conclusions and many other serious problems that follow subsequently in Advaita, making it hopelessly and utterly untenable - false.

Let me give you a very important hint and help you understand the precise position of Advaita. There is absolutely no possibility whatsoever of either the creation by an absolutely inert, inactive, stagnant, unchanging...Advaitic "Self/Atman/Brahman" or the evolution through an absolutely unchanging, immutable.... Advaitic "Self/Atman/Brahman" - the best advice for you is to throw your article in the rubbish bin and start using your own brain it is evolved for.

Therefore, it is right and high time that you try to recall and remember what I had said in the other threads that I have far better understanding on Vedanta/Advaita than you ever had, have now and will ever have. Not only Vedanta, I have thoroughly researched other religious doctrines too. Since, you have imprisoned yourself in a little cage from which you can never escape now, your brain has accepted the little cage as the universe.

It is utterly irrelevant and futile for a person like you to point fingers at something on which he has no grasp, knowledge or understanding whatsoever and, on top of that, when he himself is utterly deluded, confused and remains unable to think, feel, experience and remember correctly.

No matter how high you jump up and down, bang yourself sideways or diagonally, the reality would not go away. Like I have said 1000s of times now that consciousness is an evolved effect and not the cause.

Let me try to make you understand it in your own analogic language:

1. Like mirages, formed on hot surfaces, produce illusory perceptions of water, similarly consciousness is an illusory effect resulting from well co-ordinated neurological activities in the brain and it has no independent existence in the absence of an active brain or an equivalent neurological network.

2. Like heat and/or light are the effects of fire, consciousness is nothing but a product - an overall effect of the entire neurological activities and processing in the brain.

3. Like sunlight being the effect of the Sun burning its own core through constant thermonuclear fusion reactions, constantly changing itself by losing over 500 trillion kilograms of its mass everyday, similarly consciousness is an effect arising from a co-ordinated firing of billions of neurones in the brain.

While the brain itself draws the energy, required for performing its functions, from the blood supply.

And precisely for these reasons, humans can do absolutely nothing without a neurologically active brain, the fact which you have no option but to accept and acknowledge, which you have already done.

Now keep going round the circle again and please try readings, remembering, grasping and then understand and realise this:

An active brain is not just memory, but the one and only unseen witness/perceiver/seer/experiencer/thinker/knower of the entire phenomenon and much more.

So, both ways, you are trapped and you remain trapped into a constantly oscillatory and vicious situation, there is no way out until and unless you start to think, feel, experience and remember the reality as it is.

Till then, have fun hallucinating and sliding down the vicious spiral of infinite regress while trying to remember your current regression count, which, due to the intensity of your Dvaitic (Dualist) = body + perceiver regressions, goes up by two to 2N+103.

[pradheep]

said 1000s of times now that consciousness is an evolved effect and not the cause.

Dear Rohit,


Like you the church beleived in the west (not the east) that sun revolved around the earth, because they see that truth with their own eyes. They argued with the people like copernicus ,galelio etc for 1000 times.

However east was clear about clear about earth was round and was revolving around the sun. Butit took centuries forthe west to understand it andnotmerely what they see the illusion of sun moving accross the sky.

Similarly, my dear "western" friend, western science has yetto understand that consciousness is not an effect but the un-caused cause. The consciousness you tell is called awareness in eastern science which is an effect. I tell you this a million times and unless you take the proper means you willl stillbein the illusion of beleiving your eyes like your western ancestors 300 years ago.

Atleast follow one advice of your new guru "|Buddha". Beleive in you and not any one else. Learn his meditation and do not beleive all the scientific discoveriues adn evidences. Find out within you what thetruth is. that is the best proof and best evidence. |Keep your books aside and use your own brain to seek the real answers.

[mahadevan]

The Human brain has a lot of opiate like receptors, and human body does produce opiate analogs based on responce to some nerve stimulus. One example is extreme pain, we do not perceive too much pain, under those circumstances these opiate analogs make sure that we hallucinate. Similar phenomenon has been widely documented in near death experiences. May be meditation elicits one such mental state. But the concept 'I' is more projected as something entirely different from the body, may be those higher mental states can make one feel so detached from oneself, thanks to hallucinations or pseudo complete shutting down of thought process, as correctly pointed out by pradheep objective reality is almost non existance without a concious observer, if it is observed then a concious observer is a must, is the observer the detached 'I'. It is quite possibly that we have souls or its equivalents that define the 'I' and beyond, but we do not have any proofs for that, this brings into the picture what the I does after death, is the 'I' only for humans, what about the other living things, including plants ?. Whatever if medidation can provide such non addicting hallucination, enjoy it buddy !
Lack of scientific evidence does not disprove anything, but at the same time, since we cannot disprove it scientically does not mean that we have to belive in it. Both of them are driven by the fact that we know so little.

[Rohit]

Thank you Mahadevan for your valuable input

You are absolutely right in saying that brain can operate in countless states and levels and even can be self-driven into hallucinating states or into total oblivion. When in hallucinating or equivalent oblivious empty states, not even a vague description of the experiences is possible without the use of memory. Without recording, no retrieval of information is ever possible and that is a well-established universal fact as well as a matter of common experience, irrespective of the field involved, whether it is psychology, neuroscience or philosophy.

Thank you again

[Rohit]

Dear Pradheep,

I can clearly see how and why the constant hallucinations and sliding down the infinite spiral of regression prevents you from thinking, feeling, experiencing and remembering the reality as it is.

Creation, Intelligent Designer - ID, Human Toys, Human Robots etc. are precisely the terms used by the creationists like yourself to propagate their delusions of "creation" and "intelligent design - ID" while completely forgetting that freewill, autonomous thinking etc. are completely contradictory to their thoughtless theories of Creation and Intelligent Design - ID.

It is really laughable when a person like you who has deluded himself to such an extent of believing himself as created/designed "toys, robots etc." and who has totally abandoned the process of autonomous thinking and of feeling, experiencing and remembering anything correctly - behaves exactly like a taking robot without autonomous thinking ability or freewill and trapped himself in a vicious cycle of infinite regress.

The idea of puppet, robot, design, programming, programmer are only applicable to the deluded creationists like you and your American friends. The beliefs of creation and design of humans only applies to creationists like you who cannot comprehend the process of absolute evolution and needs a separate intelligent designer and programmer - ID for their design.

While there is no such thing as design, when it comes to the absolute evolution of the universes and life itself. There is no need whatsoever for the involvement of any imaginary creators or designers when an absolute, uncaused evolution of the universe and then life sets itself in process. The billions of years of such uncaused and progressive evolutionary process results in fully aware and conscious human being exactly as we know them, not less; no more. There is absolutely no need for an imaginary external entity as, the very consciousness has evolved as an effect through the evolutionary process, which, due to suppressed and dormant minimal activity in your brain, it cannot grasp it as its is. Precisely the way your brain has completely failed to grasp and understand that mirages, heat, sunlight are nothing but the effects and deludes itself to an extent of hallucination where it starts to sees an entity that does not exist. Like I said before, what you experience as unconditioned consciousness is nothing but the dormant and latent neurological activities in the brain which manifests itself as unconditioned consciousness - an evolved effect.

Anyway, you might feel lucky when your growing son gains the privilege of learning all about Intelligent Designer - ID and how "He" has designed human believer toys/robots like you and your American believer friends.

While the uncaused absolute evolution of human allows them to field program their brains and boot them from a variety of operating systems selected either by their parents or by their religious gurus. The variety of operating systems available to them may go something like this:

- Amazing Delusions Of Adviata For Human Toys
- Intelligent Designer - ID For Human Robots
- Fantastic Quran For Human Fanatics
-
- etc.......

While on the other hand, a few, when they grow up, consciously reject the old and primitive operating systems as listed above and choose to reboot their brains with a much more advanced evolved system:

- Rational, Logical And Scientific Thinking For Conscious and Aware Humans.

So, the process of absolute evolution provides you with a variety of choices of operating systems that are field programmable, either by yourself or through your religious gurus. The choice is yours and only yours which operating system to use, but all are available only under the brand of Absolute Evolution of the Universe and Humans and they are not a created or designed by a Creator or an Intelligent Designer, who does not/cannot exists by default.

Untill you grasp the precise process of absolute evolution, use Amazing Delusions Of Adviata For Human Toys as your operating system and keep going round the circle whilke trying reading, remembering, grasping and then understanding and realising precisely what I said, what the brain really is:

So, either ways, you are trapped and you remain trapped into a constantly oscillatory and vicious situation. There is no way out until and unless you start to think, feel, experience and remember the reality as it is.

Till then, have fun hallucinating and sliding down the vicious spiral of infinite regress while trying to remember your current regression count. Since, you have remained utterly oblivious in recognising the absolute impossibility of an absolutely idle, inert, inactive, stagnant, unchanging, immutable entity creating or involving in evolution; and as you have also demonstrated a four fold intensity of Panchvaitic (Pentaist) = body + perceiver + awareness + consciousness + toy/robot in your regressions, your regression count shoots up by 8 and goes to 2N+118