A Historical account of the Mahabharata(m) war

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir
This particular song mentions the sanskrit word "Veda".Also, the poet says "Veda Neri".So, he must have read the Vedas to say the "dharma of veda".It might not be the 4 vedas as we know today.I dont know which books he referred to as "Veda".But it definitely must have contained "dharmic paths" so that the poet could use "Veda neri" and king can accept it.

i still think this song must predate Silapadhikaram.
Or do you think this purnanuru song could be after 13th century?

Sanskrit name is "Drona pushpi".related to Dronacharya by any chance?

Is this King Manu referred in Tamil literature.I know about mythological characters like Manuneedicholan but any other literature mentions the word "Manu".

really interesting,is it not?!

[viggop]

Dear Idiappam Sir
What are the oldest references to ramayana and mahabharatha in Tamil literature?the mythological stories.
Silapadhikaram mentions lot of these mythological stories like churning of the parkadal using vasuki snake(vadakaraiyai mathakki vasukiyai nanaki made famous by MS), lot of incidences of the mahabharatha etc.is there any literature predating silapadhikaram which mentions legends of mahabharatham/ramayanam?

[Idiappam]

Would it be too too far fetched to make the connection between Drona and Drona Pushpa?

I personally think it is far fetched, unless used as a poetic metaphor by the poet in question

That what I wonder. Someone must tell me, -- Is there any mention of the 'Drona pushpa' people in the Mahabharata - the original Sanskrit version! If there is, then we can be say, perhaps, that the Punaanooru Song refers to Mahabharata. Could you check please!

[Idiappam]

Dear Idiappam Sir
What are the oldest references to ramayana and mahabharatha in Tamil literature?the mythological stories.

Frankly, I don't. But I know Appar allocates on line in every Pathigam for Ravana. I have not read the Alwars well. But the Vaishnavite puranas are quoted by them -

Ongi ulagaLantha uthaman....
yasOthai iLam singam ...
--- Andal.

Silapadhikaram mentions lot of these mythological stories like churning of the parkadal using vasuki snake(vadakaraiyai mathakki vasukiyai nanaki made famous by MS), lot of incidences of the mahabharatha etc.is there any literature predating silapadhikaram which mentions legends of mahabharatham/ramayanam?

By the time of Silapathigaram the stories have reached the Tamil Lands - See the Manaiyaraipadutha Kathai of Silappathigaram - even Manmathan was there!

[ramraghav]

Honestly, I am surprised by the analysis of the thumbai flower. This thought never occurred to me. However, I am a bit hesitant to accept the stated theories regarding the reference to this flower. To me it does not make any sense why Mudinagarayar would use a flower as a metaphor for a character who is clearly out of relevance in the concerned lines. Besides, Drona, as a character (if he did exist), is only peripheral to the story of the Mahabharata. Surely, Mudinagarayar could have picked more prominent and pertinent persona such as Bhishma, Karna or Krishna. To decide that Mudinagarayar was taking a cue from the character Drona seems a little hasty to me. Is it not equally likely that the thumbai flower was used because the 100 people were genuinely fond of (or identified with in some other way) with this flower? I consider Mudinagayar to have written this poem as a factual account of contemporary events; there would have been no need for him to use cryptic metaphors.

Please note that I have judiciously avoided usage of the terms ‘Pandavas’/ ‘Kauravas’ and have stuck to the terminology used by the poem itself i.e. ‘5 people’ and ‘100 people’. Though it is slightly unhelpful, the non-specific identification of these characters of interest could be explained by the presumption that the intended audience was already familiar with the events and characters portrayed in the poem.

While it is certainly a possibility, it is highly unlikely that the 5 people and 100 people who went to war over a land dispute arising from land-grabbing by the 100 people, as described in the poem, would be different from the 5 people and 100 people who went to war over a land dispute arising from land-grabbing by the 100 people, as described in the Mahabharata (m).

Considering this poem, it does appear that the war described in the Mahabharata (m) was based on historical fact. However, that is as far as I would go at this moment. To me, this poem does not provide any indication that the other characters and events portrayed in the Mahabharata (m) actually existed and happened.

Here are a couple more references to the same event:

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To think about it, the non-mention of Krishna must actually make us think. Why does a character who is supposed to have been held as God, not find any mention whatsoever in references to the war? If he was such an important player in the general scheme of things, how come he is completely omitted? The war is fact, we can say. But what about the rest? What was Vyasa writing? Fact, fiction or fiction building on fact?

As for the mention of the Vedas, may I point out that the poem refers to the ‘4 Vedas’ but does not specify them as the ‘4 Vedas in Sanskrit’? Mr. Sabapathy may remember what I told him in a PM long time back.

P.S.: There is one more reference in the Akananooru (233). Could someone please provide a translation (I would take ages!)?

[Badri]

To think about it, the non-mention of Krishna must actually make us think. Why does a character who is supposed to have been held as God, not find any mention whatsoever in references to the war?

Silapdhikaram has its own references to Krishna and his role, including "panjavarukku thoodu"

In the Mahabharatha per se, there is a mention of a Pandya king fighting alongside the Pandavas.

And look at the following, which Duryodhana descibes as being given to Yudhistra during the Rajasuya Yagna

And the Kings of Chola and Pandya, though they brought numberless jars of gold filled with fragrant sandal juice from the hills of Malaya, and loads of sandal and aloe wood from the Dardduras hills, and many gems of great brilliancy and fine cloths inlaid with gold, did not obtain permission (to enter). And the king of the Singhalas gave those best of sea-born gems called the lapis lazuli, and heaps of pearls also, and hundreds of coverlets for elephants. And numberless dark-coloured men with the ends of their, eyes red as copper, attired in clothes decked with gems, waited at the gate with those presents.

This has been picked up from the Dyuta Parva Section 51 of the Sabha Parva of the MB

[ramraghav]

Can you please tell where I can find those lines in the Silappadhigaram? Also, if the Mahabharata contains references to the Singhalas, doesnt that auomatically become suspect? The Singhalas are a relatively new culture (exactly how new I am not sure).

[Badri]

Can you please tell where I can find those lines in the Silappadhigaram? Also, if the Mahabharata contains references to the Singhalas, doesnt that auomatically become suspect? The Singhalas are a relatively new culture (exactly how new I am not sure).

Ramraghav: Listen to the song Vadavarayai mathaaki rendered by MS Subbulakshmi. It has been composed by Ilango Adigal as part of the Silapadhikaram

As for the reference to Sinhala, I have no idea again how ancient or new the culture is. Why, the Mahabaratha also has references to Yavanas or Greeks! Now, that puts another spin. How old is Greek Culture? And if Yavana kings came at Yudhistra's coronation, when did that event take place?

[Badri]

I actually tried to research a bit on how ancient the Greek civilization itself is! Funnily, the Bronze Age civilization of Greece began in 3000 BC!!

The Minoan period stretches from 3000 - 1200 BC! And has been named after the legendary king Minos. Now, MB itself is supposed to have occured 5000 years ago, which, giving enough of leeway for all historical fallacies that might occur, still occurs c.a. 2500 BC!

[ramraghav]

To Viggop and everyobody, heres a reference to Raman and Seethai in the Purananooru. There are other references too, summarized in a nice article by Periyannan Chandrasekaran (Atlanta, USA) on the Project Madurai website at www.tamil.net/projectmadurai The article is titled 'Á¨ÈóÐ §À¡É ¾Á¢ú áø¸û - À¨Æ ¾Á¢ú þáÁ½õ' In case you are having difficulty locating it, please pm me. I can send the pdf by email.

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Purananooru - 378

At a time of weakness for south Indians
You, who drove away the invading northern Vadugars
Decorated Your spear with an unbroken string of flowers
And used it with such force that before the day was done
Your army wrought sorrow on who came to thieve the Chozha palace
Which stood white, like the new moon, with its multiple storeys
Which other city has such vast lakes with fresh water?
We shall sing to the tune of large drums
Your glory in battle is surpassed by none
Your wealth you shared with many
Of fame is Your giving, of the jewels kept for God,
To those who are poor, on receiving which
My respected companions here, who were relieved of their poverty
Tried those that fit the fingers to string with the ears
And those that string the ears to fit with the fingers
And those that beautify the waist to decorate the neck
And those decorate the neck to beautify the waist
Which has been hilarious like when Seethai, angry Raman’s companion
Was stolen away by that man of cunning evil
Her expensive jewels reached the ground, on seeing which the monkeys
Climbed down with their red faces and played with
Without pause nor thought tried fitting the jewels out of their places
Such people live under your leadership
To remember this only causes sadness

Sung by Oon Podhi Pasungudaiyar, in praise of seruppazhi erindha Chozhan Ilanjetchenni

Points to note:
1. The poem clearly explains that Seethai, the wife of Raman, was stolen by an evil person. Seethai and Raman are referred to by name.
2. This act is said to have happened in the forest (due to the monkey infested surroundings)
3. The poem talks of these events as if they were common knowledge among the Tamil people.
4. The poem describes the hilarious act of the monkeys in repeatedly trying out Seethai’s jewels without knowing how and where to fit them. The Valmiki Ramayana does not contain any reference to such an event. In fact, the Valmiki Ramayana says that Sugrivan told Raman that he (Sugrivan) and 4 monkeys found the jewels lying on the ground and assumed that they must have thrown by Seethai. Since this poem contains details that are not available in the Valmiki Ramayana, it can be safely stated that the source of this poem is independent of the Valmiki Ramayana. This leads to two possibilities:
i. The Valmiki Ramayana is based on the source of this poem
ii. The Valmiki Ramayana as well as the source of this poem are based on a third (also unidentified) source

Please note that unlike in the Mudinagarayar poem, the Raman/Seethai episode here is not referred to as a contemporary event. Thus, the portrayed event may be based on fact, fantasy or belief.