About ICSE Syllabus in India...

[lordstanher]

Okay Lord - to your query abt me? I'm 4th generation Malaysian Indian, Pa!! Only been to India 3x!! Married to someone who still has a big part of his life left in India!

Tats interesting to know! Had a few M'asian Indian friends when I was in Singapore....a few of them even studied in India, there was one girl who finished her grad. in TN......

But honestly, India's system fascinates me!! How do they tie up, by the time you hit college or unversity????? Do institutes of higher learning accept all the above pre-U qualifications or do they set other criteria????

Afa I'm aware all colleges/Univ. in India recognise a valid 10+2 certificate from ne State and ne board during admission......in AP we hav wat's called Intermediate (= +2 & 12th std. altho different) after 10th....this is recognised even if u apply for degree in another state where this system doesn't exist......I guess all the various pre-univ. qualifications r recog'd by the Ministry of Education......

Delhi-based curriculum is what??? Only English medium??? Throughout the 12 years of school????

Well, Delhi-based just means the boards r located in Delhi & controlled by Central Govt.....they set the final (10th/12th) public exams for all the schools in the country affiliated to their boards and the answer papers of all the candidates nationwide go to their board for correction.....
And yes, both (ICSE & CBSE) r only English Medium curriculum from LKG to 10th/12th.
In SSC, the board is controlled by the local State Govt. itself and they hav the authority to make ne amends in the syllabus.....sum of these schools r only English medium whereas others hav teaching in local langs. as well.....

My son is still young. Only 13, but yeah, I wouldn't mind scouting around a system, that nurtures him better, than what he gets here, though

I understand all schools in Malaysia hav introduced teaching in English recently (b4 which it was Bahasa Melay?).....is it for all the subjects or just Maths/Science?

[nirosha sen]

hav introduced teaching in sI understand all schools in MalaysiaEnglish recently (b4 which it was Bahasa Melay?).....is it for all the ubjects or just Maths/Science?

No, English was recently re-introduced as the medium of instruction for only Science/Maths, 2 yrs ago. That too starting from Yr 1, Form 1 (7th Std, for Indians) and Lower Six (11th Std). Before that it was only English subject alone.

So, now the new format of instruction has been kept alive for a total of 3 years. But already, there are rumblings of discontment among the Malays to revert back to only Bahasa Melayu!!

So, honestly, we don't know if the present status quo stays or not after 2007!!

[hehehewalrus]

Wow......'wish I'd studied there......wud've been as lucky!
Btw, u studied in SSC (State) syllabus rite??

Depends on how u define "luck" - I sucked a bit in tamil and my parents got me to drop it(in my school, you'd be fined Rs.5 for every tamil word you use). There are lots of schools teaching French/German - in fact in Pondicherry which comes under TN Educational Board, there were schools which employ French as the medium of instruction!
The upshot of all this is you get badly screwed outside the school gates - I and most pals had a big problem reading tamil words on shops and buses...fed up of the exploitation, I decided to fix the darned problem by slogging it out on my tamil and overcame the perceptible handicaps later on. In a harsh country like India, thats the only way to fix probs, take the system head on or be prepared to be flattened

Nope I studied under a private sylab they call Matric. They dont teach foreign langs in SSC schools.

Neways, I guess atleast this eliminates my earlier opinion tat schools in TN r very particular abt including Tamil in their syllabus!

Nope TN is very much open minded in several things. In fact much more open minded than any other state The average man-in-the-street knows better english than his counterpart in any other state(Since when a guy conquers Tamil, English and not Hindi is next on the to-learn list)

For one thing, it is unnecessary for tams to learn Hindi since they dont come geographically into the Hindi belt, so why make things tough for their kids? Since we dont encourage Hindi, Hindi-speakers from other states are unlikely to move to TN for employment, our folks are unlikely to move elsewhere for greener pastures, since there are enough opportunities in our state for our people - thats how the system works.

That said, there are some despicable traits in Tamilians too! The "Ivan Nammaala?" ("Is he our man?") culture exists when Tam X meets Tam Y with some-stranger Z outside of TN. Tams expect fellow tams to bond only with tams - Language bonding! Whenever Tams goto Karnataka/Kerala/AP they expect the hosts to speak to them in Tamil, and the hosts obligingly do so - Tams are very xenophobic when it comes to assimilating other cultures - Why sweat picking a new lang when you can browbeat the other guy into speaking your own? Not surprising, that MG Road Bangalore has a wall on which was scribbled "Karnataka government, Open statue for God Thiruvalluvar". Opportunistic, heh?

And in TN, private schools have a syllabi of their own!

U mean schools of all boards or only SSC??

You're getting confused, so a little history would help here.

There are actually 5 boards in TN - CBSE, ICSE, AISCE(Anglo-Indian), Matric, SSC.
SSC sylab is fixed by the govt. To start with, most schools were SSC and they were govt run. But in 70s, private investment was encouraged and lot of English-type convent schools were started(pre-dominantly by the Anglo-Indians who choose to stay back in India). 90% of these schools fall under AISCE and Matric. They were definitely of a superior standard to SSC and also lots more expensive. Since no staff is on govt payroll, these schools set stringent standards and met them, while the govt SSC schools were sick-ridden with low funds/motivation/strikes/politics. Currently almost every city guy(except in remote villages) goes to a matric school. The Matric Schools became a cash-cow later on for the enterprising investors out to make a fast buck and nowadays it's not merely the service-minded people who start such schools.

Rarely does anyone start a private SSC school. You will have enuff knowledge about ICSE/CBSE I'm sure.

Hmm......on a not-too-related note, best thing I like abt our schools is the discipline they emphasise on!
Like for eg. showing mandatory respect for the teachers by wishing them whenever they walk in/out of the class, even if they just happen to drop in for a min., standing up while talking to them etc.......quite an astounding contrast to our colleges & Univs

Well thats simple - they demand that out of you. If you're in a govt school and you slight your teacher, who knows, the guy might flunk you for not scratching his ego :P In pvt schools, its worse - I actually had a classmate who was docked 25 marks for receiving his answer sheet with his left hand from the teacher
Atleast in college, you're grown up and if your prof has a prob with you, your gang can bash him up outside the campus.

I had a hell of a time when my parents had to transfer to Bhuvaneswar (Orissa) in 1991.....I was in 5th then and we had our 2nd lang. as Hindi (or Oriya) and 3rd lang. as Oriya, Hindi only for those who took 2nd lang. Oriya!

Oriya...hmmm..had a bunch of Oriyan friends...real softies - Orissa is one of the quieter and less-jingoistic states, very nice people, open minded. I guess they themselves had an identity crisis since most times, they get mistaken for Bongs ) Good group of people, only thing is they simply cannot pronounce the "sh" sound - it is always 'friendsip', 'bullsit', etc.

[hehehewalrus]

Walrus - TN sounds incredibly flexible, Pa!! Do they really allow you to breeze thru school without ever requiring an Indian Lang. as 2nd or 3rd lang.????

My son is still young. Only 13, but yeah, I wouldn't mind scouting around a system, that nurtures him better, than what he gets here, though

Well, you need to pick an indian lang from age 6-9 though, after that its your choice. Flexible indeed, but the real arthritis happens in your interaction with society.

Yes it would be definitely better for your son here but again most things in India are a matter of the will and temperament than anything else - its a pretty harsh and rough place to adapt for those not used to living here previously.
If your son is the type who beats every other kid in the neighborhood to pulp, then he will have no problems, but if not, will require some hand-holding in adapting to a new place. And for a kid expectations can be daunting.

[nirosha sen]

Thanks guys!! I'm surprised the other M'sians here haven't forayed into this thread yet! So much of infor. to absorb, Pa!!

Okay now, here's my idiotic question, Walrus : You say you have those different boards in TN!! What does this mean????? How do they set their exam papers????? Is it filtered by a single examination board set by the Govt.????? How does your Matric. system work?????

I saw the Matric. schools in Annamalai serial and I was curious as to how these schools function????? Do they manage all subjects, including setting test papers for major exams like your SSC, etc or does Matric by itself have a different criterion in setting/marking papers???!

As for my son, Walrus! Am afraid, he can't a speak a single word of any Indian language. In my home neither Tamil or Malayalam!! Probably, why I'm zealous in pushing my daughter into a Tamil school lately!!

[hehehewalrus]

Thanks guys!! I'm surprised the other M'sians here haven't forayed into this thread yet!

they've enough probs of their own, dont worry

Okay now, here's my idiotic question, Walrus : You say you have those different boards in TN!! What does this mean????? How do they set their exam papers????? Is it filtered by a single examination board set by the Govt.????? How does your Matric. system work?????

Ok, I dunno how its done at the topmost level(my mom is a princy and some of her friends are holding these very offices, maybe next time i'll ask them for info) - they have this overseer committee for all boards which set up the question papers and grading system for Class X Final exam(for each of the boards), these are administered statewide. The rest of the time, the schools themselves(or the local body of Matric schools in each town) frame the questions for the model tests. The only time staff of Matric schools get on govt payroll is when they are selected to grade any papers for the Grand Final Exam(they are paid a pittance anyway and most would rather holiday the summer away in Ooty!). So basically the Govt has nothing to do with the running of the Matric schools 99% of the time. It's a capitalist system here - atleast for SSC board, Govt puts a finger and pulls strings with respect to hiring staff, admitting students since they're on its payroll - As for Matric, the richer you are, the better teachers you recruit, the better results you produce. So basically if a Matric school is damn good with results, you will find the cream students from all schools flocking to this topgun school to admit their wards - and it will be a ratrace. There is actually an advantage here - you set high standards for a few years, you will starting get the best kids, and they will automatically study on their own with little coaching. So it's actually easier to revive a sick company than, say, improve a school that's flagging in performance.

After Class X, for 11th, 12th, all boards except CBSE(Central Board which is followed all over India) merge into the HSC stream and have a common syllabus. So generally Matric students fare better than SSC folk. Current trends show a different pattern though - Students from tiny cities are rocking leaving the more established cities behind. I guess the simple kids in villages/small cities have lesser distractions these days, city kids getting spoilt with scooters/bikes/girls/gadgets etc. Cities having double income families and with parents away, satellite television/internet/music systems around, a little hell is evolving in most modern households. Good trend, good to see the sincere small-town plodders win and serves the yuppies right for chasing the fleeting distractions! During my days, we smallcity kids freaked at Chennai kids with their suave know-it-all demeanour and aggresive results, currently though the one-time softies are kicking major Chennai butt. Ofcourse with all streams merging into HSC, you can expect higher degrees of corruption everywhere(textbooks not printed in time, confusion of time tables, paper leakage etc)

I mentioned Matrics being a cash-cow and evidence of this is the mushrooming of several 1000 teeny-weeny matric schools with inadequate facilites. Good example is that Kumbakonam school which greased the palms of some officers to get approval, had absolutely rotten facilities and lost several kids in that inferno. Its important to have service-minded people starting schools, recruiting service minded staff to teach(I was lucky that in my school, teachers would work on christmas day/new year/easter to help weak students or house them and feed them in their own homes during exam week, such people are rare these days. You wont see such things in SSC schools though. But these days Matric teachers try to join SSC since it assures them of govt payroll and assured pension after retirement!)

So overall in TN while you see a mix of capitalism and government interference, in the end it all goes down to the basics - plodding away manfully to get results, stick to your studies, not mind the distractions. In other states, I've seen that unless you pump in money for private tuitions for your kids, drive them around, its difficult for them to ace exams. In TN, its a reasonable system where it's not that exhorbitantly expensive, you put in efforts and you reap the rewards. There was this Tsunami-affected kid who topped the state in some exam recently, so adversity is a good way to sift the wheat from the chaff

As for my son, Walrus! Am afraid, he can't a speak a single word of any Indian language. In my home neither Tamil or Malayalam!! Probably, why I'm zealous in pushing my daughter into a Tamil school lately!!

Not necessary at all - infact i've never heard a Tam living in N.India put his ward in a Tamil school. You are like what, 12% in Malaysia and there's not much good in your daughter knowing Tamil, other than her accent sounding musical to your ears - Let her get a realistic taste of life for now, when she is old enough she can explore and learn indian langs or dig Bharatiyar on her own - thats how we "cosmo tams" do it here. First develop a yearning and you will gulp the arts and graces of the language in a year, better than getting force-fed all your life with it. Plus, when you learning something in school, you might have a lousy teacher or pick up wrong attitudes from peers who hate the subject, so you might gradually develop a resentment for it. So if there's something you really outta know in life, better put the onus of learning on yourself.

I saw this thread where a.r, NM, shakti, yourself talked about msian Tam schools but dont quite get it. Come on, we Tams are all over India, Malaysia, Singapore, Canada, Sri Lanka, Fiji, South Africa, Tanzania, Guyana, Australia, Norway, Germany, England, Burkina Faso and what not....it's not like the language will go dead if one expatriate temporarily lays it aside, tamil fanatics like the Tamilkudimagans, Karunanidhis and the Jayalalithas be damned.(Most fluent-in-tam youngsters actually waste their time reading trash like Ramani Chandran anyway )

[nirosha sen]

Okay, here's a bit abt our school system, Pa!!

The secondary schools all have a common system. Books are the same, public exams the same,etc right up to pre-U, okay??? Which is for us called, Form 1 to Form 6. Age 13 - 18.

Now, the primary schools though are found in 3 different mediums. We have the mainstream Malay medium, for which the Govt. roots for and pumps in enough funds, but is very pro-Malay in character. Malays being Muslim, naturally infuence the entire set-up as per their ethnic identity.

Tamil schools also from Yr 1 to 6, but until 2 years ago all subjects like Maths, Science, Tamil, Moral, Local Studies, PE and Music appreciation were all conducted in the Tamil language. The only exception being English subject and Bahasa Melayu, the national language, hence compulsory.

The same subjects are taught in Mandarin, in the Chinese medium schools too!!

Now, with the change of Science/Maths taught in English, all the 3 medium schools are compelled to teach them in a single lang. only!!

So now, both Tamil and Chinese schools are left with only Moral, Tamil or Mandarin, Local Studies and Music Appreciation in their respective lang. Maths, Science and English subjects are now taught only in English. Announcement and teachers/students freely converse in their ethnic tongue unlike the Malay medium schools, where speaking the mother tongue is banned!!

All the products of these 3 mediums of instruction, finally merge in secondary schools where a single medium of instruction is used with the exception of the English subject!! Of course for Forms 1, 2 and 3 are now using English for Maths/Science as well. Also, the Pre-U group - we call them Lower Six and Upper Six.

[NM]

So overall in TN while you see a mix of capitalism and government interference, in the end it all goes down to the basics - plodding away manfully to get results, stick to your studies, not mind the distractions. In other states, I've seen that unless you pump in money for private tuitions for your kids, drive them around, its difficult for them to ace exams. In TN, its a reasonable system where it's not that exhorbitantly expensive, you put in efforts and you reap the rewards. There was this Tsunami-affected kid who topped the state in some exam recently, so adversity is a good way to sift the wheat from the chaff

I saw Visu's arattai arangam some time back and was amazed with the TN students' speech, their vision, determination and their vast knowledge. We do not see that in malaysia, especially not among the indian students. We are being suppressed so much and indian parents are under tremendous pressure to ensure their kids do very very well in their studies as everything here is based on quota system! So, when the students are pressured, they just study to make the grades. Not many excel in other field. There's no freedom for innovative thoughts/sessions - all priviledge being given to the malays in the country. Thats a sob story, i know, but thats how feel - and thats whats happening in malaysia today. I don't know if Niro or other parents agree with my feeling and thoughts!

I saw this thread where a.r, NM, shakti, yourself talked about msian Tam schools but dont quite get it. Come on, we Tams are all over India, Malaysia, Singapore, Canada, Sri Lanka, Fiji, South Africa, Tanzania, Guyana, Australia, Norway, Germany, England, Burkina Faso and what not....it's not like the language will go dead if one expatriate temporarily lays it aside, tamil fanatics like the Tamilkudimagans, Karunanidhis and the Jayalalithas be damned.(Most fluent-in-tam youngsters actually waste their time reading trash like Ramani Chandran anyway )

The mention of my name here is what brought this outburst...
Well, Walrus, whether you realize or no, more and more indians are losing their mother tongue. They forget. The parents speak English to them and they in turn, grow up speaking English. Then, some of them have the nerve to look down on the Tamil speakers. I have several friends who told me and my dad that they feel special and so high-class when they speak english. In India, it is OK, as you said, let the child grow and slowly they will pick up the language. Here, you let the child grow, and slowly, language & culture will be lost. For those who love language and culture will definately feel like me. A Mauritius minister (can't remember his
name) told a press conference when he was in malaysia a few years back that, if we are not careful, Malaysian indians will soon become like the mauritians, don't know their mother tongue and now, they regret for not preserving the language.

Well that's my stand and i seriously do believe, anyone of any race should not forget his/her mother tongue, parents must nurture this in their children from young. Thats the only way the love for the language will flourish! Tho' i am not tamil-educated, i feel proud that i can speak, read and write in tamil (tho' i still hv probs with the "na', 'ra', 'la' .. ).

[a.ratchasi]

Well, Walrus, whether you realize or no, more and more indians are losing their mother tongue. They forget. The parents speak English to them and they in turn, grow up speaking English. Then, some of them have the nerve to look down on the Tamil speakers.

Unfortunately, what NM has put forth is true, walrus.
We should encourage the young ones to speak without any inhibition. For this to be achieved, it is pertinent for children to know our cultural aspects and heritage so that they too would not fall prey to the supposed social standing (??) as mentioned by NM.

let the child grow and slowly they will pick up the language.

This was what I went through. Tamil was not shoved down my throat (hehehe minus the attempts by my grandma who wanted me to take up POL lessons). Instead, healthy but small doses of cultural influence that my family infused since my childhood triggered my inquisitiveness to speak, read and write Tamil after a certain age though I am from English speaking background. To this day, people (especially distant relatives ) whom I meet are always pleasantly surprised to hear me talk/reply in tamil.

Sadly, though, the need to atleast communicate using Tamil is not shared by everyone else but instead it is seen as a cause of embarrasment.

I have digressed from the actual topic, havent I?

[lordstanher]

in my school, you'd be fined Rs.5 for every tamil word you use).

Hmm.....I've heard abt such schools b4....good way of making extra income?
But when I was in Jr. college at Hyd. studying Intermediate in 1998-99, I got wat I personally felt was the worst punishment from ne teacher as a student, for speaking in a local lang.!
I hap'd to be in the 'good books' of my old English teacher then, altho she never openly showed favouritism w/ me in ne way at college......one day in her class, so hap'd tat she wasn't teaching ne-thing so we were free to talk...
One of my classmates asked me sumthing in Telugu & I absent-mindedly replied to him in the same, w/ our English tchr standing a little away from us! (firstly we were forbidden to talk in local langs. at college but none bothered to follow tat rule, except in English class!)........
she seemed very cross w/ both of us, esp. w/ me saying tat since I was one of the few good students at English, I shud be encouraging others to talk & improve their English, rather than joining in their lingua franca ('think she saw me as a traitor or sumthing!) and she asked us both to write an imposition of vowing to talk only in English- 300 times! and give it to her the next day.......but we cudn't finish it by then......so she straightaway made it 700 times!
My hand went limp & cudn't go on beyond 374-75 (which she accepted nevertheless)......'thot it wud've been better if she'd just given us a slap or a whack w/ a cane.......but more than tat, I was anguished tat I'd given her a bad impression abt me forever......however, it didn't turn out to be like tat afterall!

I and most pals had a big problem reading tamil words on shops and buses...fed up of the exploitation, I decided to fix the darned problem by slogging it out on my tamil and overcame the perceptible handicaps later on. In a harsh country like India, thats the only way to fix probs, take the system head on or be prepared to be flattened

Hmm.....well, I never learnt to read/write a single word of telugu (altho just a couple of alphs.!) throughout my life in AP!
However I reckon tat I cud still manage bcos I've lived in Hyd'bad & now Vizag, which r both urban cities & prefer wide use of English (even on buses etc.), as opposed to living in a smaller district/town.....?
Aside, there r also loads of northies & muslims in Hyd'bad who also never learnt to read/write Telugu......in fact muslims in 'old Hyd.' still stick to Urdu as a sole local lang.

For one thing, it is unnecessary for tams to learn Hindi since they dont come geographically into the Hindi belt, so why make things tough for their kids?

Well, u cud think so unless ur parent/s were employed in say, the Central Govt. (mine were working for ICMR) & r under the control of frequent interstate transfers, usually as luck wud hav it, to States w/ totally diff. langs.....
Even in the South, outside TN its unlikely to find a Tamil-speaking junta (altho in B'lore/Kerala there r sum exceptions).......
In such a scenario I daresay its useful to learn Hindi as its a far more widely accepted lingua franca.....?
Even if u don't learn how to read/write it (better not! ), it'd still suffice to learn how to speak it, even basically.....

That said, there are some despicable traits in Tamilians too! The "Ivan Nammaala?" ("Is he our man?") culture exists when Tam X meets Tam Y with some-stranger Z outside of TN. Tams expect fellow tams to bond only with tams - Language bonding!

Very true! And tat too, I personally noticed, the bond has to be only w/ tams. from TN, or atleast born in TN!
My mom (orig. from Madras) tells me tat when her marriage was fixed w/ my Dad (who was Tam but born/raised here in Vizag w/ only his ancestory from Sri rangam), many of her relatives exclaimed tat she was marrying a "telung-u kaaran" even tho he cud speak Tam....
Ok 'nuff of this digression here.......!

There are actually 5 boards in TN - CBSE, ICSE, AISCE(Anglo-Indian), Matric, SSC.

Ohh yea I rem. hearing mention of AISCE sum time ago.....rings a bell now......!

SSC sylab is fixed by the govt. To start with, most schools were SSC and they were govt run. But in 70s, private investment was encouraged and lot of English-type convent schools were started(pre-dominantly by the Anglo-Indians who choose to stay back in India).

Yes I rem. one of the first SSC based convent-schools in Hyd. was started in the '70s, a girls' school tat my sis. first attended! Tks for the history bit, btw!

Since no staff is on govt payroll, these schools set stringent standards and met them, while the govt SSC schools were sick-ridden with low funds/motivation/strikes/politics.

They sadly r pretty much the same even today! Here in Vizag, I read abt one Govt. school tats never had ne toilet facility so the boys hav to relieve themselves on the walls of their classrooms/corridors! YUCK.......tat is so pathetic!

The Matric Schools became a cash-cow later on for the enterprising investors out to make a fast buck and nowadays it's not merely the service-minded people who start such schools.

Exactly......I even had a friend who later joined an SSC school in Hyd. tat seemed to run only for money....he told me it initially wasn't even recognised by the State board......so the candidates had to appear for the Xth public exam carrying the name of another SSC school on their hall tickets!

Atleast in college, you're grown up and if your prof has a prob with you, your gang can bash him up outside the campus.

Actually if u notice, in colleges even the profs. aren't tat devoted to their jobs so 'guess they can't heap the entire blame on the students.....many of the profs. work there only for becoming profs. (if its a govt. college/univ. they continue to get their salary whether they teach or not.......even if they go on a long leave!)........and even they follow lots of politics/superiority etc. in their workplace!

Oriya...hmmm..had a bunch of Oriyan friends...real softies - Orissa is one of the quieter and less-jingoistic states, very nice people, open minded.

Very traditional too.....apart from Bengalis.....

only thing is they simply cannot pronounce the "sh" sound - it is always 'friendsip', 'bullsit', etc.

Same thing in Bangla too......hence maybe the identity confusion w/ Bongs.....