Great THAMIZH - ISAI !

[Idiappam]

Vikram said:

there can be mathematically infinite no of janya ragas, around 300 janya ragas are in vogue..to add u add 72 melakartas and a few bhashanga/upanga/vakra ragas, u get around 400-450 ragas...sad that u cudnt get even this much out of that "report"and could only jump to condemn the effort i took to share some of my limited knowledge with u.....

At least Mr Vikram now you are closer to the realities of music! Only 300 to 450 ragas left eh? The claim that the melakarta scheme 'offered' infinite ragas to the world is a bluff in reality. Mathematically true yeah. Bewilder, go on!

If you look at these 300 to 450 ragas (I don't know how you dreamt up that figure), just over 150 ragas a common and popular. The rest have just one or two, or no songs at all to it - They sound horrible or resemble closely another raga. So stop your 'lakhs raga' melakarta brag.

how many ever it might be, one thingz for sure, the no of ragas in vogue were certainly more than the no of panhs!

Another thing for sure - you statment above is terribbly wrong - and it exhibits your anti-Tamil sentiments. Take care!

so u know which one is more evolved than the other...btw, how many panhs were in vogue Mr Learned sir???

There are all there, even in 'carnatic music' by different (sanskritised) names. Keep looking, my dear Sampath!

[viggop]

Guys
Why is this fight over the number of panhs and ragas? Both of them only enhance the carnatic music.They do not conflict each other or try to destroy each other.If they are now known by sankritised names,does that make carnatic music lower? or if they are known by Tamil names,does that make carnatic music lower?

The carnatic musicians dont bother!!! the devoted audiences in chennai and throughout the world do not bother and even Lord Shiva does not seem to bother.Even Lord Shiva has thousands of sanskrit and Tamil names.Does it diminish HIM anyway?

Sirs,
JUst enjoy the music and the bliss and ONEness with God it brings and do not let things like names,languages etc. spoil it!!! All prejudices should melt in the music and all prejudices are because of our egos.

Immerse yourself in the great ,divine,pure spiritual music by letting go of all prejudices,egos,political affliations etc.

[rshankar]

I agree with viggop that we must put this partisan debate to rest before it gets out of hand. My previous posts in this thread were just to highlight the fact that Tamizh songs are in no way inferior to songs in Telugu, and MAY be preferred if the audience so desires, and more importantly, if the musician has not learnt the other language he/she sings in.
I think that the very survival of Carnatic music pays tribute to the fact that it bends and absorbs, rather than breaks. It is possible that many older forms of music were not able to do this and this may have contributed to their disappearance. Most of the music and dance from the region of the Tamizhs has always been very catholic in their approach: take the classical dance forms of India: most of the repertoire is performed to local languages and Sanskrit. e.g.: While kathak is danced to compositions in Hindi/Urdu and sanskrit, mohiniattam and kathakali to sanskrit and Malayalam songs, kuchipudi to Telugu and sanskrit, even in the days when it was called dasiattam, or Sadir or Koothu, bhratanatyam dancers could perform a Tamizh padam (tirvotriyoor tyaagesan chid-vilaasakaaranadi), or a Telugu padam (maaname bhooshanamu) or a Telugu jaavalai (parullanna mata vinnavaddu, praananaayakaa) with equal elan. Following this tradition, current dancers have danced to compositions in Hindi (Dr. Padma Subrahmaniam is credited with using a Meera Bhajan for a Padam first), Bengali, Gujrati (Chandrasekhars) etc. making the repertoire of bharatanatyam so extensive. Similarly, while Hindustani musicians like Bhimsen Joshi are execptions (he has sung some Purandaradasa compositions), most hindustani musicians stick to Urdu/Hindi (and its dialects) lyrics. Rabindra Sangeeth is exclusively in Bengaali, and if the current move to make Odissi music another branch of classical music in India succeeds, then it is another example of a kind of music where the songs are exclusively if not predminantly in Oriya and sanskrit. Unlike all these, I think that we should be proud that Carnatic music has a much wider lyrics-base to exist on.
The language of the songs become important only to those of us (a minority, it appears) that appreciate the innate poetry and godliness of the lyrics and the saintliness of the composers (for die hard, 'true' lovers of music, the lyrics do not seem to carry much weight, because it is difficult to even put a language to the songs several of the 'great' musicians have sung).
Much has been said of the beauty of Telugu compositions, but I love some hindi and kannada songs as well: in the song 'yAd AvE, brindAvan kI mangal lIlA', I was struck by the following lines: 'kOyi kahE yeh mITTA sapna, krishn kahAnI kavi man rachnA, mohE nahIn kaCHu kahnA sunn-nA, mOhE thO brij lAlan lalnA' (the pun on mOhE is great!). In a mIra bhajan, the poetess is asked about the person in her dreams: 'koyi kahE srIrAm hai kya? yA gowrI kAlI maiyA?' and she replies: 'mein kahUn, nahI, gOpAl hai woh ik, ban mei charAyE gaiyAn' (how simple, yet so profound), and she goes on: 'umA patI paramEshwar nahIn, nA nArayan BayahAri, mIrA kA hridaya vihArI, ang pItAmbar, mOr mukut sar, mAlA galE suhAVE'. Similarly, the phrase 'AshegaLeshTO, nirAshEgaLeshTO, suKa, duKa prEmOtsArangaLeshTO' from a purandaradAsa composition also makes my day, or 'sakala vidhyABimAnI, ajana pattadharAnI' also appeals tremendously.
Every language has its innate beauty, and in my opinion, it is the duty of the singer to learn the language, enunciate the words clearly and appropriately and communicate the meaning of the song to the listener to fulfill the prophecy that 'advaita sidhDHiki, amaratvalaBDHiki, gAnamE sOpAnamU'!

[viggop]

Ravi Shankar
you are right.I too agree with you.
I thought only we Tamilians are broad minded but from your post,everyone else seem to be as broadminded in accepting all langauges.For them,the music and dance are a separate language by itself.I think when you become a musician ,you only breath music and things like language,geographical boundaries,all these disappear totally.
Long live such an attitude

[viggop]

After successful completion of Cleveland Thygaraja Aradhana,Michigan thygaraja aradhana is going to start on April 24.US guys can make use of this oppurtunity too.

[Idiappam]

Leaving all those distractions aside and getting back on track, Tamil Isai. The compostions of the Earlier Trinity, as far as I can collect:

---- Muthu Thandavar (1600 AD)
Keerthanai - 60
Padam - 25

---- Marimuthu Pillai (1712 - 1787)
Keerthanai - 25
Puliyur venba
ChithambarEsar viRalividu thUthu
Thillai PaLLu
Chitirak Kavigal
Singaara Velavar Pathigam

---- Arunasala Kaviraayar (1711 - 1779)
1. Rama Naadaga Keethanai - consisting of:
Tharu (Keethanai) - 197
IradikaNNigal (Thabathai) - 60
Kadavul vaNakkam - 1
Viruththam - 268
Miscellaneous - 6
Venba - 2
KaliththuRai - 1
Various Musical pieces - 258

2. Seerkazhi ThalapurANam
3. Anumaar Pillai Thamizh

Any additions???

[viggop]

Idiappam
The entire holy books like Thevaram,thiruvasakam etc can be set to musical tones.Arunagirinathar thirupugazh.Also,vaishnavite works of Allwars.Everything is part of Thamizh isai.

Later works by periswamy thooran,papanasam sivan,lalgudi jayaraman,ambujam krishna etc. are now sung at concerts.

Bharathiyar poem and few non polemical poems of bharathidasan

[viggop]

Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar set the tune for vaishnavite works like thirupavai etc.periaswamy thooran was a freedom figher from a farmer family near coimbatore.though he did not know music,he wrote a lot of songs and they were set to tune by some musician.

Ambujam Krishna belonged to the TVS industrial family,i think.
Papanasam Sivan is a well known film song composer.

Also,I forgot to mention Koteeswara Iyer who has composed Tamil songs in all 72 melakartas.his grandson K.Veeramani sings light devotional songs.

lalgudi has composed several thiallanas and varnams which are very enjoyable.Chitravina Ravikiran has also composed songs in Tamil,telugu,sanskrit and I think his mudra is "ravishashi"

T.N.Bala and Tanjavur Sankara Iyer have composed Tamil krithis recently

if you know about any other recent composers in Tamil,please post here.

[viggop]

Also add Gopalakrishna bharathi and suddhananda bharathi,swami dayanand saraswathi to above list fo Tamil composers

[Idiappam]

On sanskritisation of Tamil musical Terminology - an example:

Óò¾¢¨Ã§Â ӾĨÉòÐ Ó¨Èò¾¡Éõ §º¡¾¢òÐ
¨Åò¾Ð¨Ç ¡áö Åì¸Ã¨É ÅÆ¢§À¡ì¸¢
´ò¾¿¢¨Ä ¯½÷ó¾¾üÀ¢ý ´ýÚÓ¾ø ÀÊӨȡõ
«ò¾¨¸¨Á ¬§Ã¡¨º «Á§Ã¡¨º ¸Ç¢É¨Áò¾¡÷.
---- sEkkizhaar periya puraNam - AnAya nAyanAr puraNam (12th C. AD)

ArOsai and amarOsai, respectively sanskritised as Arohana and avarohana - Who did that?

"pAlai" and 'pan peyarthal' coming up next.