Great THAMIZH - ISAI !

**viggop** · 15th April 2005, 11:14 AM

Guys
Did anyone of you hear the jugalbandhi(RTP in charukesi) of Ravikiran and Gaurav Mazumdar? Was it not simply superb? That itself shows that carnatic music is apart from any one language

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**Vikram Sampath** · 15th April 2005, 11:21 AM

in ur zeal to counter me, u didnt notice in that same '10 page report' of mine that i mentioned clearly that (as viggop also said) there can be mathematically infinite no of janya ragas, around 300 janya ragas are in vogue..to add u add 72 melakartas and a few bhashanga/upanga/vakra ragas, u get around 400-450 ragas...sad that u cudnt get even this much out of that "report"and could only jump to condemn the effort i took to share some of my limited knowledge with u.....how many ever it might be, one thingz for sure, the no of ragas in vogue were certainly more than the no of panhs! so u know which one is more evolved than the other...btw, how many panhs were in vogue Mr Learned sir???

and improvisation is in the raga elaboration and exposition...it is not set music sung from a book..i dunno how better i can explain the same concept to u...ive tried all means...and dont think ive succeeded too much..

stop branding others...im not an anti tamilian...im a tamilian myself...but that doesnt make me an irrational zealot...i also need not be a militant carnatic fanatic...carnatic music has stood the test of time and doesnt need worthless people like myself to defend it...if u didnt like it so much, wonder what ur doing on a classical music forum!

u say language isnt important in music in an earlier post and then in the same breath lament on the "suppression" of tamil songs...what a classic contradiction!

**Vikram Sampath** · 15th April 2005, 11:30 AM

viggop, i do agree with u on the issue of why those particular kritis were more in vogue...bhakti was of course one thing...at the same time, an important aspect that sri tyagaraja brought to music was the concept of 'sangatis'...it is often said that his kritis(especially the pancharatnas) have been perfected to such an extent that no more improvisation on the sangatis can be done...a simple example is this famous kriti 'Dari ni Telusu kontinaiya tripura sundari...ni' in Raga Shuddha saveri.(u must hear MLV sing it..shall send the link sometime)...the pallavi of one line has 11 sangatis...the anupallavi has some 15 sangatis and the charanam has 10 sangatis...what more cud any other musician add???

the compositions of dikshitar were rich in lyrical supremacy...astute and chaste sanskrit..at the same time, dikshitar travelled to the north extensively and is said to have brought in elements of hindustani music , and north indian ragas too to carnatic music---like Behaag, Dwijavanti, Madhuvanti, etc. also both these composers set many of their compositions in the melakarta ragas which were neglected by musicians for long --mainly because they were too tough to comprehend for them and at the same time tough to distinguish the minute differences between melas of the same chakra(there are 12 chakras of 6 ragas each)...in contemporary musicians DR Balamurali krishna has composed kritis in all 72 melas and in fact many present day musicians have started using his kritis extensively as well....

**Vikram Sampath** · 15th April 2005, 11:36 AM

viggop...the RTP was indeed excellent...thanks for the link...but i dotn see the point that u make...both are instruments..so anyway they r free from the crutches of language! so hardly matters which instrument is carnatic n which is Hindustani!

the real challenge comes in a vocal jugalbandi when language enters the scene...ask me abt it...i have been a student of carnatic music for 15 odd years now...and have been experimenting with jugalbandis with my hindustani friends on the concert stage...but its never been a very fulfliing experience for me personally and ive always felt it difficult to keep the synchronisation...i dunno if its my lack of expertise or the general lacuna that vocal music suffers from...dunno!

**Idiappam** · 15th April 2005, 01:36 PM

Vikram Said;

carnatic music has stood the test of time and doesnt need worthless people like myself to defend it...

Test of time??? How long was that?? Carnatics used to deplore Tamil songs - There were even walk outs by carnatic fanatics when Dhandapani Desikar sang Tamils songs at a Temple concert, saying that the stage got 'theetu' because of Tamil.

Now you see, a different story - audience got tired of the same non=Tamil 'carnatic' songs - the same 'ragunaayaga' etc. That now senior singers like Sheshagopalan had to grab and sing the Kamba Ramayanam to keep the fizz going. Bombay Sister went for Bharathiar Songs, and Sudha R. got one or two kavadi chindu and some Bharathidasan songs. Tamil Songs are the ones the is sustaining some life in 'carnatic' music. Properly said, 'carnatic music is infertile'.

if u didnt like it so much, wonder what ur doing on a classical music forum!

What else do you know about me, my dear friend?

u say language isnt important in music in an earlier post and then in the same breath lament on the "suppression" of tamil songs...what a classic contradiction!

Ah.. where?? Take your time, Mr Sampath read my posts again! I chose my words carefully!

**Idiappam** · 15th April 2005, 01:38 PM

Just another few questions?? What is the western violin doing on a carnatic stage?? Who brought the harmonium to India?? Before these instruments, what was there???

**viggop** · 15th April 2005, 02:01 PM

I think Nadaswaram was the chief accompaniment before the violin.Violin was introduced by Baluswamy Dikshitar(brother of muthuswamy).It was further enhanced when the Tanjavur quartet(Pillai brothers who were disciples of Muthuswamy Dikshitar) took to it.

Did not know that harmonium was not an Indian instrument!It has become so synonymous with our music!

Unfortunately,now nadaswaram vidwans are suffering.The situation became so bad that some carnatic musicans led by Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer conducted a special nadaswaram vizha to show case the power of nadaswaram(mangala isai).Now,I believe the Kanchi Mutt is sponsoring lot of nadaswaram vidwans.The Tamil Film people spoil the image of Nadaswaram and thavil by using it for their "dappang gutthu" songs which have vulgar meaning and dances.

**viggop** · 15th April 2005, 02:07 PM

Idiappam
Very surprised that you mention that the audience gets tired? I have attended lot of chennai music concerts when i was in chennai and audience never get tired of the songs.Any song sung well will take us to bliss.there is no tiredness at all.carnatic music songs are not the type of songs where you will get tired if hearing it or singing it again & again. also, the raga improvisation in RTP and alapanai is very much appreciated by the audience.People do poojas and recite skanda sashti kavacam and vishnu saharanamam daily? Do they get tired of it? Carnatic music actually gives people a peace of mind and bliss.

Actually,vidwans and vidushis are singing benagali songs,rabindra sangeeth,marathi abhangs,bhajans etc.they are trying to learn as much as possible too in all languages but mostly they sing devotional songs only and in praise of Hindu Gods/Godesses.SO,they are also trying to enrich their knowledge base as most professionals are required to do so.

**viggop** · 15th April 2005, 02:14 PM

OS.Arun too has rendered Kambaramayanam.
Heard TNS is now trying to move to harikatha.Let us wish him well.
Carnatic music came from Lord Shiva.Hence,I believe mere mortals like us cannot do any damage to it.When the Lord decides to take it within himself again,only then it'll get destroyed.Till HE is backing it,it'll keep on getting enhanced by HIS grace.
So,dont worry that carnatic music is dying etc.Lord Shiva is protecting it.This can be seen that it is reaching a worldwide audience and carnatic musicians need not beg anymore and they are getting prosperous.

**viggop** · 15th April 2005, 02:21 PM

Sanjay Subramanian,renowned carnatic musician was asked in a concert whether carnatic music is dying.He responded that these predictions have been going on for a long time.Britishers wrote in the gazette that carnatic music is dying after the passing away of the trinity.But,now it is flourishing but the predictions are repeated that it'll die soon.Dont worry.It'll only die when Lord Shiva absorbs it within HIMSELF.it came from HIM and only HE can destroy it.Fortunately,i think,HE is showering his grace on it by getting even young people interested in its beauty.
You would be surprised to know that my organisation conducts "thyagaraja aradhana" annually with only its employees taking part.And all of us are in the age group,21-27 only!!!