Great THAMIZH - ISAI !

[Vikram Sampath]

Idiappam sir, i neither have the time nor the inclination to indulge in worthless insinuations with u...so kindly desist from advising me from what to do and what not to do...

coming straight to the last question that u posed...

pal, classical music is also called 'Shastriya' sangeeth..the word 'shastriya' has a meaning here--one that has rules or shastras...so the supposed jargons u claimed that carnatic musicans throw at ppl to initimidate them, is actually their lingo...a C-programmer will talk in terms of if andfor loops, a doctor in his lingo..similarly classical musicians have their own language of communication--if that puts off 'common 'people..cant be helped...these common ppl shud stop seeing a doc as well because half the time we dont understand their mumbo jumbo and jargons...

as u know, there are these 72 melakarta ragas that define the bedrock of carnatic music..they are sampoorna ragas and use all 7 swaras in their ascendant(arohanam) and descendant(avarohanam)..the scheme was proposed by musicologist Venkatamakhi sometime in the 16th century(bad at history dates...so reserve my doubts on 16 or 15th!! come on yaar, gimme some benefit of doubt ) ragas with 5 notes are called oudava ragas and those with 6 notes are shadava..now, if u have 6 in the ascendant and 7 in the descendant it'll be a shadava-sampoorna raga...simple High school maths will tell u the different permutations combinations possible here-

1) sampoorna - sampoorna
(2) sampoorna - shadava
(3) sampoorna - oudava
(4) shadava - sampoorna
(5) oudava - sampoorna
(6) shadava - shadava
(7) shadava - oudava
(8) oudava - shadava
(9) oudava - oudava

---contd---

[Idiappam]

Mr. Vickram

Thankyou for that unnecesary bombast that you posted in reply. I know all that stuff. I also know what the Tamils have written on music long before the Sanskritis came up with their 'oudava-Shadava' thingy!

My question was very simple! How many ragas are there commonly used in carnatic music?

So stop your bush-beating and come to the point, Mr Sampath!

[Vikram Sampath]

The first case evidently refers to the melakartas themselves and does not generate any janya ragas.(BTW melakaratas are the janaka ragas or parent ragas and their kiddos are the janyas) The example of Bilahari belongs to the 5th or oudava - sampoorna case. Using the sampoorna - shadava case as an example, there are 72 sampoorna arohanams and six shadava avarohanams for each, leading to total of 432 janya ragas of this type. (Again if uve done Maths in class 11 or 12, u cud crack this one...perms and combs chapter!!!) By the same argument, there are 432 janya ragas of shadava - sampoorna type. Following this procedure, one can arrive at a total of about thirty thousand independent janya ragas. However, a large number of these are not in use since they do not have distinct raga swaroopas. This brings us to the important observation that it is not just mathematical jugglery that produces ragas. As the saying goes, 'Ranjayathi ithi Raga' - that which is beautiful is a raga. Ragas are produced through experimenting with the possible combinations, looking for distinct swaroopas. This process has been conducted for centuries by composers and musicians to arrive at some two to three hundred or so janya ragas currently in use.


U can have further variations of janyas called bhashanga raga, upanga raga, vakra ragas and that would take the tally a little more than that...but all that on a later date, lest i dont lose u completely

i really dont understand ur last stmnt abt 'faults' etc...even if there are faults, so what?? art is an expression of human emotions...humans are imperfect, so their art cant be perfect...art is also a continuously evolving process..what u find imperfect today wud become a part of the form a few centuries later...so letz not get there at all...the point i reiterate is abt the evolutionary aspect of any art...i fully agree (and being a tamilian myself) that the roots of carnatic music lay in the tamizh isai of the ancient tamils who had reached a v early stage of literary and musical supremacy...Idiappam, with times things improve, evolve...even ur operating systems versionz get added features with new versions...how can, then a form thatz evolved now out of its old parent be its infertile offshoot?? it wudnt have survived n thrived in that case...tamizh isai had some 24-27 panhs(panhs was the equivalent of the word raga)..also it totally lacked the hallmark of classical forms--Improvisation. it was more of Kalpita sangeetha or composed music..whereas both styles-Hindustani and Carnatic bank on a lot of Manodharma Sangeetha or Improvised/spontaneous/extemporaneous music(its more in Hindustani than carnatic, agreed)..through components like Alapanai, Neraval, Kalpana swarams, RTP the artist treats the raga like his child..helps it to grow stage by stage and then expose its traits and beauty in all its majesty...this makes singing an ever green, a fresh experience and also challenging...cos ur composing right there on stage, not looking into whatz written in a book or taught by ur guru...thats where the beauty lies..one which the ancient forms DIDNOT have..

take the case of hindustani music as we noe of it today...inital indian classical music as documented by Bharata in his natyashastra in some BC year,..where he said all these 7 swaras emanated from nature etc...and later sharanga deva's sangeeta ratnakara--there was no distinction between Hindustani or carnatic styles--the names also werent known...dhrupad was the most ancient form of Hindustani music..been there for over 1200 years...but with turko persian invasions and influences, the Khayal form developed..which is what is in vogue today...dhrupad has almost died with just the dagars, gundechas and others practising it...khayal gave rise to other offshoots like thumri, kajari, dadara, tappa etc some of which were from the courtesans and looked down upon...but today its a part of any Hindustani musician's repertoire...similarly carnatic music has evolved, changed, metamorphosed from the ancient styles...added on more features, become structured and grown and continues to grow..like the khayal singers abandaoned the elements of dhrupad (alap jod jhala--which if u notice is interestignly similar to our ragam tanam pallavi!), so also composers over the years abandoned languages like tamil and kannada and took on sanskrit and telugu...therez no earth shattering consequence of that...if u say language doesnt matter, then why r u worried abt tamil compos being subsumed??? contradiction of sorts???


and anyway imperfection is good..Perfection is death after alll!

[Vikram Sampath]

ur beyond help sir...live with ur views..Good luck and God bless you..

[Idiappam]

ur beyond help sir...live with ur views..Good luck and God bless you..

Wow, Remarkable feat Mr, Sampath! Really! You have produced a '10 page report' for an answer that just needs 3 digits.

Bewilder Bewilder Bewilder - never mind, that's common amoung some carnaticians and some anti-Tamil elements that I meet often.

Let me post my simple question for a genuine answer from someone.

How many ragas are there commonly used in carnatic music?

[Idiappam]

Mr Vikram mistakenly said:

tamizh isai had some 24-27 panhs(panhs was the equivalent of the word raga)..

You are terribbly mistaken there! You just counted the pans in Thevaaram! There are over 100 pans! Just about the number of ragas commonly used in carnatic music! What 'raaga inovation' are you talking about in carnatic music??

Melakartha eh?[/quote]

[viggop]

Vikram Sampath
My post was not at all against you! I am also of the opinion that music has no language barriers.

Is it not Tamil musicians who have an open mind to singing in all languages? We should appreciate ourselves(Tamilians) for this broad outlook we have.No one forced it upon us but still we sing in different languages.All the Tamil muscians claim that there is no language in music.

[viggop]

Idiappam
Raga improvisations usually happen in RTP.Raga alapanai is supposed to be the place where an musician can show off his knowledge of music(vidwat) & his creativity.

GNB had a style in alapanas when he was elaborating and exploring a particular raga.It became later known as the GNB bani.

Flute Mali used to pick up some important notes of the raga and elaborate on them only(unlike GNB).
SO,you'll find that RTP and raga alapanai of the same ragam will be very different from each artistes.

Even in Songs,you can sing with varying tempos.You can sings songs full of brighas.T.N.Seshagopalan is well known for his brigha laden renditions and also kannakkus.

[viggop]

Manicka mudaliar wrote a book about the mathematical basis of carnatic music.Mathematically,you can have an infinite number of ragas.

[viggop]

Idiappam
Music season concerts as we know now started in 1927.Before that,i think people used to sing in courts of rich people and kings and also in temples.

I dont think there was a progressive suppression of Tamil songs.I think the muscians themselves did not have any agenda to suppress any language especially since 75% of the muscians are Tamils and they speak Tamil at home.They probably chose the songs which brought forth their vidwat of music,brought forth their devotion.
Musiri Subramanya Iyer usually chose thygaraja krithis because of their high bhakthi content and he is supposed to be very good in showing emotions through music.Hence,in his concerts,Dikshitar kritis were almost absent as they were more of philosphical nature.

Why do you say that there was a deliberate suppression of Tamil songs?
What does that achieve for the musicans?Which time did this start to happen?

Atleast for younger generations people like me, we hear songs in all langauges including Tamil and carnatic musicans release casstettes which are based on themes,Kshetras etc containing all language songs.Also,they sing with equal devotion to the Lord in all langaugaes like DKP rendition of "eppadi paadinaro"