Great THAMIZH - ISAI !

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir,

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Does "noolor" mean experts? One who are well versed in books(nool)?
This is another indication that books were existent during elango's time.Probably in olai chuvadu format.

A question on the history of carnatic music development?

How did Venkatamakhi enforce that his melakartha scheme takes precedence over other existing schmes.Those days there were no technology to spread something newly discovered/created far and wide quickly. And why did Tamils adopt this scheme knowing fully well that it is flawed(not allowing two Ma's)? Was it forced upon by some kings ? Those days ,kings were the only source of sustenance to musicians and if they want to avoid poverty,they better follow the king's orders.Any ideas on this?

[Idiappam]

±ñ½¢Â á§Ä¡÷ þÂøÀ¢É¢ý ÅÆ¡«Ð

Does "noolor" mean experts? One who are well versed in books(nool)?
This is another indication that books were existent during elango's time.Probably in olai chuvadu format.

Yes!

Enniya = well researched
noolor = scholars /authors
iyalbinin valaa athu = not departing from the nature of (that grammer of music)

[Idiappam]

Ok, while writing the story of the Melakarta, lets listen to this -

Radha Samedha - Raag Mishra Yaman - A Hindustani Raaga.
Kunnakudi Vaithyanathan on the Violin at:

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/3/...18/artist.175/

Can someone tell me the Arohana/Avarohana of this Raaga, and in which Mela can we possibly fit it into. Thanks!

[viggop]

I have heard this song beautifully rendered by MLV for a Tamil film.Was it really composed by GNB?
This raga looks so similar to Charukesi in carnatic for me.It looked like kunnakudi was playing "Krishna Govinda murare"

Awaiting the history of how venkatamakhi's melakarta scheme became accepted by Tamil musicians

[Idiappam]

Awaiting the history of how venkatamakhi's melakarta scheme became accepted by Tamil musicians

Music is an art - not science, nor arithmetics. Venkatamakhi (17th Century CE(AD) just tried to 'systematise' what there was using arithmetics. First, he just grouped them into two - based on the 'Ma' (F or F#)they had. The 12 noted system was in place for thousands of years! Making 22 sruties(tones in a scale) out of this 12 notes - there can be just 72 Melas - not any more. Simple arithmetics.

Another thing Venkatamakhi did, is, he named and renamed the Melas. They say, by using his naming method you can 'detect' the notes that are in place for a specific mela - no big deal! A plain serial number would have been sufficient and easier to handle, instead of the long bewildering 'Sanskrit sounding' names of the Melas - Dheerasankaraabharanam, Simhendramadhyamam, Shadividhamaargini, Naasikaabhooshini, Shadividhamaargini, Maayaamaalavagowla, Vakulaabharanam, Gaangeyabhooshani.

I wonder, if these names really have some meanings in any language??

Then they were made into smaller groups -- The Chakras, causing more choas. The system was intended to see some order out the 'choas' of 'so many raagas'

The Character of the Scales were totally ignored by Venkatamakhi. Of the 72 mela scales 32 were diatonic (having only 2 semitones - seperated - not successive), The rest, 40 scales are chromatic (having 2 or more semitones consequtively.)

The Tamils had a better system of groups
PerumpAlai - Diatonic Scales
CirupAlai - Chromatic Scales

The Pentatonic, Hexatonic and Octotonic scales had no place in the Venkatamakhi's schemes - they are all lumped together and called janya raagas - having nothing special about them! Venkatamakhi had all the Janaka Raagas (parent raagas) in his coup. The rest are chickens!

What a brain!

Saranga Deva, the Musicologist of Ratnagara Fame - did more work! At least, we know that he was fiddling with two Veenas of 22 strings each, trying to get to the bottom, understanding South Indian Music.

More, on the Melakarta and Ratnagara, soon! Going for tea now!

[viggop]

Thanks Idiappam Sir!

But,how come Tamils accepted this scheme when they had a better scheme( as you say).They would know that this scheme would make some pans go away(which had 2 Ma's in them).

Was it forced by some king that all musicans should follow venkatamakhi from some date? how come it spread to all musicans in all the states of AP,TN,Karnataka and Kerala? Musicians should have been able to reject it easily knowing its flaws which you have detailed.

My guess is that it was some fear which made them accept venkatamakhi even though they knew the flaws of his system.

[viggop]

"Krishna mukunda murare" is in raga Maand

Also,I heard that Prof.Sambandamoorthy was totally against this melekarta scheme and he was supported by Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer and semmangudi srinivasa iyer.but,the conservatives prevailed at the Music Academy.

[Idiappam]

Thanks Idiappam Sir!

But,how come Tamils accepted this scheme when they had a better scheme( as you say).They would know that this scheme would make some pans go away(which had 2 Ma's in them).

Was it forced by some king that all musicans should follow venkatamakhi from some date? how come it spread to all musicans in all the states of AP,TN,Karnataka and Kerala? Musicians should have been able to reject it easily knowing its flaws which you have detailed.

My guess is that it was some fear which made them accept venkatamakhi even though they knew the flaws of his system.

Dear Viggop, you would have realised that I have avoided answering this question, when you raised that earlier. My answer may send me to the gallows (the Kings are fierce). But never mind, since you insist, I will take the risk!

The Melakarta Scheme is just that, a SCHEME! To suppress something great like Tamil Isai, you need such schemes! They were put to use effectively by later Schemers too - bewildering the laymen. I hope that is clear!

Now lets run......!

[Idiappam]

"Krishna mukunda murare" is in raga Maand

There is a paN named 'Kolli' in Tamil! Appar's first Thevaram 'kootrayinavaaru vilakkakileer' is sung to that paN. The present name of that Kolli pan is 'navroj'.

Krishna mukunda, if it does not fit Maand, try Navroj then!

Kolli paN is used for lullabys too, along with the pans Senthuruthi (Madyamaavathi), and Megaraagakurinji (Neelambari).

[Lakshman]

Viggop:

<Also,I heard that Prof.Sambandamoorthy was totally against this melekarta scheme and he was supported by Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer...>

Are you sure it was Maha Vadyanatha Iyer? He died in 1893 and P.Sambamurti wasn't even bornthen!