Great THAMIZH - ISAI !

[Sudhaama]

"viggop"

// By cultural exchange, I meant Sanskrit names were accepted into Tamil society and maybe the names were in Sanskrit because raga had a similar name in N.India.So, that raga was given to South and maybe some Tamil Pans might have been used in N.India too.//

Tamilian-Scholars used to participate in the All-India debates and Seminars called SADAS ... convened by the olden-days Kings...

... on various subjects of common-interest and concern on Indian- Culture...

... and one of such subjects was.... Music.

Most of the other Indian-Scholars.. in the course of debates and Seminars ...were using Sanskrit Terminologies...

... since they were accepted and taken into their Regional-linguistic folds too ... by the same term .. as of Sanskrit

... and so found such usage... convenient for mutual expressions and conversation... amongst such various Scholars from different Linguistic- groups

For example ... one such Sanskrit- Word... prevalent in all the Indian Languages ..

... being called by one Common- term amongst all of them as.. RAGA.. only...

...Since.. they do not have any separate another Regional-Language word for Raga... all over India!!

... Unlike Tamil ... where we call the Raga as .."PANH"

But for the Convenience of mutual-grasping, identification and understanding... Tamilian Music-Scholars used to quote as Raga-Panh...

... just as a matter of CIRCUMSTANTIAL -CONVENIENCE .

// I did not know that Vedics were against music//

No Confusion necessary... Music is part of Veda.. and the Vedic- Sasthras.

.. Rather the "Nadham" .. the Musical-sound.. has emanated from the Sound..." OHM."... the Origin of DIVINITY.

//.Because most Hindu Gods like saraswathi(veena), Naradar(veena?), Krishna(flute) ,Shiva(damarum) were associated with music//

Beautifully you have analysed... Yes. You are CORRECT.

//.Or it could be that these Gods & Godesses were Tamil Gods and vedics later adopted them?//

There is No Tamil-Gods... or... Hindi-Gods... and so on. All the Vedic- Gods are COMMON to the whole World Society as well as the entire Cosmic- World too..... beyond Earth...

Siva-Lokam and Vaikuntam are not confined to Earth alone...

Lord Siva is addressed as... "YEN- NAATTAVARHKUM IRHAIVAA POATRI" ... and also as... VISWANAATHAN.

Lord Vishnu is addressed as... VEETRU- IRUNDHU YAEZH- ULAHAM THANIKKOAL SELLA VEEVIL SEER-AATRAL MIKKA AALHUM AMMAANAE ... and also as.... JAGANNAATHAN.

// Even in Tamil literature, I have read that musicians were treated as a lower caste.Avvaiyar is usually described as a poetess from the caste of bards.I read this in an essay by Prof.George Hart //

A Separate Caste as... PAANHAR. ... yes.. Panh-paaduvoar ... Paanhar.

Manu-Smrithi is NOT A SASTHRAM ... nor a Vedic- Gospel.... but just one Tyrannical King- made MANIPULATION.... of olden-days... but

... REJECTED and ...UNACCEPTED by Vedic-Scholars... even during those days of Forcible IMPOSITION by the Dictatorial Kings of those days..

... unfairly DISCRIMINATING by vivi-sectioning One United Society as broadly described and deemed CLEARLY AND EMPHATICALLY SO by ...

..Vedas.... imbued with the Hearty spirit of UNIVERSAL- LOVE ... YAAVARUM- KAELHIR.... and...

... further INSISTS.. to PREFERABLY pray God through Music... by Songs, Bajans and Sthothras too ... set to Music...

.. Which Nayanmars and Alwars had IMPLEMENTED... long ago.

[Idiappam]

Viggop said:

By cultural exchange, I meant Sanskrit names were accepted into Tamil society and maybe the names were in Sanskrit because raga had a similar name in N.India.So, that raga was given to South and maybe some Tamil Pans might have been used in N.India too.

What is more important here is the character of the paNs, not their names. But if you look carefully they may not be sanskrit at all, but sanskritised Tamil name. But the study root words of these names is something that can be discussed later here.

I did not know that Vedics were against music.Because most Hindu Gods like saraswathi(veena),Naradar(veena?),Krishna(flute) ,Shiva(damarum) were associated with music.Or it could be that these Gods & Godesses were Tamil Gods and vedics later adopted them?

They are NOT vedic gods!

Even in Tamil literature, I have read that musicians were treated as a lower caste.Avvaiyar is usually described as a poetess from the caste of bards.I read this in an essay by Prof.George Hart.

Wrong! How much more are you going to put down Tamil Literature. Avvaiyaar said, 'ittAr periyAr idAthAr izhikulathAr' - that puts an end to the misconception of caste discrimination - in Tamil Literature!

[rshankar]

In continuation with all of this is the belief of the divine origin of all of our classical performing arts. If I remember correctly, myth has it that after creating the 4 vEdas, Brahma realised that the study and practice of these were confined only to the twice-born men, excluding the majority of the population. Therefore, he created a fifth veda that was available for all to practice. He is said to have taken vAk (speech) from the rig vEda, ishai (music) from the sAma vEda, aBinaya (expression of emotion) from the yajur vEda, and rasa (experience/sentiment) from the atharva vEda to create the fifth, and he called it the nAtyavEda. A practioner of this vEda was called a 'nata' and he/she was adept in dancing, singing and acting, and the first production by the practioners of this vEda was 'kshIrasAgaramanTHanam'. The tenets of the nAtya vEda were codified by a sage called Baratha muni - no connection to the Barath after whom India is called BArath, or to BarathanAtyam. Over time, the three aspects of the "nata's" abilities were split, giving rise to musicians who did not dance or act, and actors who did not sing or dance very well. Dancers by and large, do learn music and are well versed with most forms of aBinaya, except vAchika aBinaya (aBinaya through the spoken word). So, I think there is music in sAma vEda (you just have to listen to the chanting of sAma vEda: it is not like the chanting of the others..) even if it was not intended!

BTW, the name VISWANATHAN has no reference to music. In this name, Shiva is simply referred to as the nATH (god, leader, husband, etc) of the whole universe; nATH is not to be confused with nAdh which is sound or music. I realize that in thamizh they will be written the same way and may even be pronounced the same, which is one of my pet peeves! Explains why someone with a lovely name like padhmanABan becomes bathmanAban (batman for short!)

[Sudhaama]

Mr. Ravi-Shankar

//, the name VISWANATHAN has no reference to music. In this name, Shiva is simply referred to as the nATH (god, leader, husband, etc) of the whole universe; nATH is not to be confused with nAdh which is sound or music.//

Yes... But you have mistaken my Quoting the name of Siva being Viswanathan... that I had related it to NADH... No ..Not so .. but NATH only

... Meaning the Supreme of the Whole Universe...

I reproduce herebelow my reply on the Question ... whether Lord Siva is the TAMIL-GOD???

// There is No Tamil-Gods... or... Hindi-Gods... and so on. All the Vedic- Gods are COMMON to the whole World Society as well as the entire Cosmic- World too..... beyond Earth...

Siva-Lokam and Vaikuntam are not confined to Earth alone...

Lord Siva is addressed as... "YEN- NAATTAVARHKUM IRHAIVAA POATRI" ... and also as... VISWANAATHAN.

Lord Vishnu is addressed as... VEETRU- IRUNDHU YAEZH- ULAHAM THANIKKOAL SELLA VEEVIL SEER-AATRAL MIKKA AALHUM AMMAANAE ... and also as.... JAGANNAATHAN.

[Idiappam]

LET ME make it clear, once and for all!

There is NO music in the Vedas! Sama veda is 'sung' with 3 notes only, and if not for the human voice in it, it will sound just like any fire siren! That, the Sama Veda should be sung with that 3 notes is a practice that came much later.

I DARE all those to rebutt this to give me the Vedic verses that talks about music. - THERE IS NONE!

The first ever text on music in Sanskrit is the Sangeeta Ratnakara of SarangaDeva - 13th Century AD. Prior to this we have only Tamil writings on music and MUSICOLOGY!

The word 'RAGA' is NOT Sanskrit - but Tamil.

THE 'CREATORS' OF INDIAN MUSIC ARE THE TAMILS!

Now, would you sanskrit lovers let me get on with the 'Great Tamil Isai'?

Sabapathy

[rajraj]

Idiappam,
Here is quote from History of South Indian(Carnatic) Music by Rangaramanuja Ayyangar.

'A harvest of 11991 PaNNs known as Adi Isai was the result. Subsequent elimination of unmelodic combinations among them reduced a number to 103. The Tevaram songs of later times used some of the most popular of these PaNNs.'

This number 11991 is from Silappadhikaram and the quote is from the chapter on Silappadhikaram. I suspect it is from 'Kaanalvari'.

Clearly, the Tamils had a very advanced system of music about 2000 years back. They were able to enumerate all the PaNNs using 5,6 and 7 notes. It is the only work to mention such analysis at that time or even later.

What happened to that knowledge? What made that system perish? Did the 72 melakarta (parent scale) system evolve from the 103 PaNNs?

[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr. Sabapathy,

I do not understand the sense behind your wortding addressing... SANSKRIT-LOVERS???

Do you mean all the Sanskrit-Lovers are .. ANTI- TAMIL...?

I am a Sanskrit-Student during the School-days... what is my Stand on Tamil-Language... Should I clarify.. even after my active participation more in the RICH Tamil-Literature Threads... here...

In fact ... I am a Linguist... knowing several Languages... and I love all the Languages.. prevalent all over the World...

...including the Tribal-Languages like Badaga, Gondi, Santhali .. etc..

... as well as that one.... so called Dead-Language... Sanskrit ...which You hate!!!.. God Knows Why????

If you want to ESTABLISH that Music was Founded by Tamilian Culture...

... which later on EXPANDED to all over India... it is an INCREDIBLE News to me.. Please go ahead

[Idiappam]

Do you mean all the Sanskrit-Lovers are .. ANTI- TAMIL...?

Not all, some just pretend to be Tamil-Lovers!

[viggop]

Idiappam/Sabapathy Sir
I did not put down Tamil Literature.As I said,that essay was written by Prof.George Hart(Tamil Chair at Univerisity of Berkley).In it, he gave quotes to agananuru and purananuru which mentioned that there was a caste of bards.
I have not read either agananuru/purananuru so Prof.Hart might have interpreted things in his own way.Paanars were musicians like Yaazhpaanar.

Please do not divide people as Sanskrit lovers/Tamil lovers etc.It is against the Tamil philosophy of respecting other things like the Nayanmars did.I love both sanskrit ,Tamil,Teleugu and all other languages and hence I'm able to enjoy songs in all of them.

Why are you worrying that people are trying to take the credit away from Tamils? Just ask them to look at present day carnatic scenario.Almost every legend in carnatic field are Tamilians and we have won the most number of Sangeetha kalanidhi awards.
Tamils not only created carnatic music but now it is preserved by Tamils only.Who can challenge this assertion? Other classical things like Bharathanatyam dance is also preserved by Tamils only.Many famous dancers like padma subramanian,yamini krishnamurty,chitra vishveshwaran,alarmel valli are Tamils. Chennai,capital of TN, is the Mecca for both classical dance and carnatic music.
It'll be a long long time for anyone to beat us (unless we become very arrogant and haughty that Lord Shiva decides to remove the knowledge from us)
So,stop worrying

This is not to discredit people from other states.There were legends like chowdiah,balamurlikrishna,chembai vaidyanatha bhagavathar,dwaram venakataswamy naidu and lot of greats from other states too.Even John higgins and Harold Powers(first non hindu to sing in thygaraja aradhana in 1955) are there from other countries.They probably do not have the facilities we Tamils have like having a long history.


Please continue your posting on thamizh isai now.

[viggop]

List of Sangeetha Kalanidhis
==============================

1929 T. V. Subba Rao, T. S. Sabesha Iyer and M. S. Ramaswamy Iyer
1930 Harikesanallur Muthiah Bhagavatar and T. V. Subba Rao
1931 Pazhamaneri Swaminatha Iyer
1932 Tiger Varadachariar
1933 K. Ponnayya Pillai
1934 T. S. Sabesha Iyer
1935 Mysore K. Vasudevacharya
1936 Umayalapuram Swaminatha Iyer
1937 Chidambara Bhagavatar
1938 Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar
1939 Musiri Subramania Iyer
1940 Kallidaikurichi Vedanta Bhagavatar
1941 Professor Venkataswami Naidu
1942 Mazhavarayanendal Subbarama Bhagavatar
1943 Palladam Sanjiva Rao - flute
1944 T. L. Venkatarama Iyer
1945 Maharajapuram Vishwanatha Iyer
1946 no award - birth centenary of Tyagaraja
1947 Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer
1948 Rajamanickam Pillai
1949 Mudicondan Venkatrama Iyer
1950 Karur Chinnaswamy Iyer
1951 Chembai Vaidhyanatha Bhagavatar
1952 Karaikudi Sambasiva Iyer
1953 Tirupampuram N. Swaminatha Pillai - flute
1954 Chittur Subramanya Pillai
1955 Marungapuri Gopalakrishna Iyer
1956 Tiruvizhimizhalai Subramanya Pillai - nadaswaram
1957 T. Chowdiah
1958 G. N. Balasubramaniam - vocal
1959 Madurai Mani Iyer - vocal
1960 T. K. Jayarama Iyer - violin
1961 Tiruvidamarudur Veerusami Pillai - nadaswaram
1962 K. Papa Venkataramiah
1963 Budulur Krishnamurthi Sastrigal
1964 Alathur Sivasubramanya Iyer
1965 Alathur srinivasa Iyer
1966 T. S. (Palghat) Mani Iyer - mridangam
1967 no award
1968 M. S. Subbulakshmi - vocal
1969 Madurai Srirangam Iyer
1970 D. K. Pattammal - vocal
1971 Papanasam Sivan (age 81) - composer
1972 Professor P. Sambamoorthy - musicologist
1973 T. Balasaraswati - bharatanatyam
1974 R. Anantakrishna Sarma (age 81)
1975 no award - bi-centenary of Dikshitar
1976 T. Brinda - vocal
1977 M. L. Vasanthakumari - vocal
1978 M. Balamurali Krishna - vocal
1979 K. S. Narayanaswamy - veena
1980 T. N. Krishnan
1981 T. M. Thiyagarajan
1982 Embar S. Vijayaraghavachariar
1983 Dr. S. Pinakapani
1984 Mysore V. Doreswamy Iyengar
1985 Dr. S. Ramanathan
1986 K. V. Narayanaswamy
1987 B. Rajam Iyer
1988 Prof. T. Viswanathan - flute
1989 Maharajapuram V. Santhanam
1990 D. K. Jayaraman - vocal
1991 Nedunuri Krishnamurthy
1992 Thanjai K. P. Sivanandam
1993 Mani Krishnaswami - vocal
1994 T. K. Murthy - mridangam
1995 R. K. Srikantan
1996 Dr. N. Ramani - flute
1997 M. S. Gopalakrishnan - violin
1998 Sheik Chinna Moula - nadaswaram
1999 T. K. Govinda Rao - vocal
2000 R. Vedavalli - vocal
2001 Umayalpuram K Shivaraman - mridangam
2002 Sikkil Sisters (Neela & Kunjumani) - flute
2003 T. V. Shankaranarayanan - vocal
2004 Vellore Ramabhadran --- mridangam


From the above list,tell me how many are non-Tamils?
It is the proof that Tamils need not worry about losing carnatic music