Glorious THYAGARAJA- KEERTHANAS !!!

[Sudhaama]

(1) SINGERS: Most of the Tamilian-MUSICIANS do not know Telugu..... Still they PREFER to learn and ENJOY singing MORE of Telugu Songs especially Thyagaraja Keerthanas... Why?

(2) RASIKAS: Most of the AUDIENCE in Tamilnadu also do not know Telugu... Still they prefer Telugu songs composed NOT ONLY by Thyagabrahmam... but also OTHER Vakgeyakaras TOO who composed in Telugu...like Shyama Sasthri, Mysore Vasudevachariar, Poochi Srinivasa Iyengar, and so on... preferably Thyagaraja Keerthanas .. although all of them are of alien Language Telugu.... Why?

(3) COMPOSERS : While Thyagarajar's Mother-tongue was Telugu and he composed most of his Keerthanas in his Mother-Tongue... even the Non-Telugus like Mysore Vasudevachar, of Kannada Mother-tongue,and Ramanathapuram Srinivasa Iyengar, of Tamil Mother-tongue too had composed only in Telugu ..Why?

(4) ORGANISERS: Similarly.. in all the Towns and Cities having abundant Sangeetha- Rasikas ... the ORGANISERS (despite most of them Non-Telugus not knowing Telugu language)... are happier to organise a Thyagaraja- Aradhana Festival more than any other Music-Festival. ..Why?

(5) POPULARITY : Even though several Music-Festivals are celebrated annually all over India... such as Bhahath-Khande Festival... Thansen Festival.. and the like.. for Hindusthani-Music... alongside the Narayana- Theertha- Festival, Dheekshitha-Festival, Shyama-sasthri Festival, Thrimurthi- Festival, Swathi-Thirunal Festival, Navarathri-Music- Festival ... the Annual celebration of the Thyagaraja-Aradhana-Festival at Thiruvaiyaaru only is the ....MOST POPULAR one .. involving even the International broadcast by Radio and TV programmes.... Why ?

[viggop]

Sudhama
Just because the press does not give coverage to other festivals does not mean that they are bad.Musicians like to sing in any language in praise of God.It'll take them closer to God.All musicians say that they can reach God through music(Nadopasana).So,the aim is to please God and everything is for HIM.
I do not know a bit of telugu but I read English translations of the song if I like them very much.

[Sudhaama]

"viggop"

// Just because the press does not give coverage to other festivals does not mean that they are.... "bad"....//

Did I mean... "BAD"...?

If you say .. that the Crane is of higher-Degree WHITE than Milk... Should I take it that the Colour of Milk is Black.?

Further I clarify here... I mean by POPULARITY.. Thyagaraja-Aradhana Festival is more Popular Nationally and Internationally too. I had raised a Question here... Why So?

If you want to differ with me to mean... that I am not correct to say so...

Welcome... please come forward... which other one is more popular?

And if you agree with me... then please put forth your Opinion in that angle.... on which I will participate along with all other friends here time to time.

//Musicians like to sing in any language in praise of God.It'll take them closer to God.All musicians say that they can reach God through music(Nadopasana).So,the aim is to please God and everything is for HIM//.

(1) One of the Objects of Keerthanas sung in the name pf God is for OBEISANCE towards God as one of the several means of Expression of Devotion and Prayer.... But it gives PLEASURE for all the other Hearers too... as an Art.... irrespective of Divinity inherent.

(2) There are also NON-DEVOTIONAL Musical-songs ... especially in Dramas and Cinemas... which too are enjoyed by the Rasikas as well as the Commonfolk..

So to say... Music has got Two strengths...

(1) Prayer by Devotional-Expression imbued with Soul- Pleasure.

(2) Enjoyment and Subtle Expression of all the Moods in Life.

[Vikram Sampath]

hi!

I cant understand why something like classical music needs to be seen through a linguistic prism? first and foremost carnatic music is NOT tamil music! it is perhaps true that today the world of carnatic music boasts of many musicians who happen to be Tamilians and chennai is quite a hub for this art form. But historically speaking most of the great composers have used Telugu in abundance for their compositions, be it Saint Thyagaraja and Shyama Shastri or Annamacharya, Bhadrachala Ramadasa or more recent composers like Mysore Vasudevacharya or Yoganarasimham. of course Dikshitar stuck to Sanskrit in his compositions while the Dasas(like purandara dasa, kanaka dasa, vijaya vittala dasa etc) used Kannada. hence all these concepts of "alien language" to carnatic musicians doesnot make any sense to me...(alien to whom? and why?)

[viggop]

Vikram Sampath
Most ancient Tamil classical texts have been tuned to carnatic music.Like the works for St.Gnana Sampandhar,Manikavasagar etc. I agree that language is no barrier to music and one should have an open mind in these things.

[Sudhaama]

"Vikram Sampath"

// I cant understand why something like classical music needs to be seen through a linguistic prism?//

Well-said... Will you please ELABORATE... as to Why it should Not be Viewed So?

//.. first and foremost carnatic music is NOT tamil music! //

No.. It is Not correct to say so....Ancient History proves... that MUSIC was part of the Advanced Tamilian-culture... predating other HUman- Cultures...

Even though named differently in Tamil, ... like PANH to mean Raga and PAANHAR for an Instrumentalist... the Carnatic-Music was the Ancestral property of the Ancient- Tamilians, which is being shared by others now all over the world... like Several -light-flames emanating from one Main Jothi...

That is the reason for any Music-concert anywhere in the World... we can find the majority of Audience Tamilians... because it has been continued since several centuries back... whereas others started only recently... and so Rasikas are comparatively lesser from the other parts of India..

Alwars Arulhi-cheyal (Divya-prabhandham) as well as Saivai- Thirumurhais of Nayanmars have been SUNG in Musical-tunes ... just in the presence of God to them.. Those Ragas have been recorded even in the olden Palm-leaves as well as Copper-plated and the like Documents.

// it is perhaps true that today the world of carnatic music boasts of many musicians who happen to be Tamilians and chennai is quite a hub for this art form...//

Because Tamilians were the the earliest Owners... several centuries prior to others... which they nurtured further... as detailed above.

...// But historically speaking most of the great composers have used Telugu in abundance for their compositions, be it Saint Thyagaraja and Shyama Shastri or... hence all these concepts of "alien language" to carnatic musicians doesnot make any sense to me...(alien to whom? and why?)//

That is the Question ... I will answer... after hearing from all of you.

[Vikram Sampath]

sudhaama, it pains me to see people fostering such parochial views EVEN in soemthign like classical music...anyway u, like anyone else is entitled to his/her own prejudices and beliefs...its after all a free and democratic country where in the name of history we could give anything and everything a go-by! being a tamilian myself, i do not dispute the greatness of the language in terms of its classsicism right from the time of the Sangam period, and that all south indian languages have been offshoots of it...but the region "Carnatic" is neither entirely in tamil nadu, nor is it present day Karnataka as some people wrongly think..it covers a vast area of southern india which spans all the 4 states(if u would remember the Carnatic wars that were fought here in the 18th century)...and carnatic music has emanated from this very region...so the culture is a composite one and to call something as the "ancestral property" of a particular clan smacks of nothing but regionalistic jingoism at its nadir! if u r carrying this debate just to score brownie points or ruffle feathers on this forum or worse for popularity, so be it...but dont paint things with a historical coat to buttress ur claims...good luck and God bless...

[Vikram Sampath]

u spoke about the Panh and other terminologies of Tamizh isai...very true..the roots of carnatic music may certainly be in this ancient and not-so-developed musical form of the ancient Tamils and it does find a refrence even in the silappadikaram. the tamizh isai spoke of 21(some say its also 24 or 27)panhs...and many of these have counterparts in carnatic music undoubtedly( like "nattarakam" for Panthuvarali or "indhaLam" for Nadanamakriya and so on)...but its highly presumptious to assume that this ancient form of music is what carnatic music is in its present day form..music like any art form evolves with time and with more people joining the bandwagaon...so from 24 or 27 panhs, we had the 72 melakarta raga scheme(which has NO similarity to the way panhs were structured, FYKI) and was mainly the work of musicologist Venkatamakhi who was both an erudite scholar of Sanskrit and telugu...the person u call as the Pitamaha of Carnatic music and who has laid out the structure for the manner in which carnatic lessons have to be taken--saralai varasai, janti varasai etc in mayamalawagowla is Saint Purandara Dasa who composed ONLY in Kannada and who worshipped Vitthala of Pandharpur in present-day maharashtra...none of the so-called Trinity of carnatic music composed in tamil, if u noticed!! so while the oirgins might be Tamilian no doubt, the development, enrichment and growth of Carnatic music to the form it is in today has been possible mainly a large section of non-tamil population and hence this exclusivist rights in my view is a faulty one...so kindly have a more egalitarian and broader outlook in life!

[Sudhaama]

"Vikram Sampath"

//... it pains me to see people fostering such parochial views EVEN in soemthign like classical music.//

Dear Vikram Sampath.. why should you feel PAINFUL or think as Hurt .... simply somebody differs with you in opinion or knowledge?..I don't understand...

Whatever I say... has a basis and justification... which I had hinted in brief to start with... on which I want to hear from you .. that is the reason, I addressed it to you...

I am open-minded enough to consider others opinions and Knowledge. And if I am Wrong at any stage... I will hesitate the least to retrace my thoughts and steps and will be happy to fall in line whatever is the Right one.. So please continue.... whatever you have to fortify your stand.

That is the object of this Thread... I initiated... with much zeal.

//...the region "Carnatic" is neither entirely in tamil nadu, nor is it present day Karnataka as some people wrongly think..it covers a vast area of southern india ...//

The name "Carnatic" here, does not relate to any Region... It has nothing to do with the present state so called Karnataka too.

The word "Carnatic- Music".... is the English form of "Karnataka- Sangeetham"... where the word KARNATAKA means ANCIENT..

The Karnataka-Sangeetham is the Most ancient one ... the Foremost amongst all the International Music- Spectrum.

Sapthaswaras of Karnataka-Sangeetham have emanated from Lord Siva,

//"Sa Ri Ga Ma Pa Dha, Ni., Vara Sapthaswara...//

...as described by Sri Thyagaraja .. in

..." Naadhathanum Anisam Sankaram Namaami" .. in Chiththaranjani...

And also... in his another Keerthana... "Raga-Sudhaarasa" in Andhoalika .

.... "Sadhaasiva mayamagu Naadha Ohmkara Swara ..." ...

... which means...Naadhoankaaram ... is another form of depiction of Lord Sivas existence through Sound.

If this Music has originated from the Lord Siva Himself... is it necessary to describe further as to how far Ancient it is. ?

Am I wrong to say so?

[Vikram Sampath]

ok..atleast i succeeded in getting u to say that Carnatic music emanated from Lord shiva!!! now by mathematical induction does it mean that Lord Shiva was also a Tamilian???...plzzz for heavens sake dont give "historical proofs" to make that claim Lord shiva etc are mythical characters my dear Sudhaama...its mythology and so letz leave it at just that! i would rather believe Bharata in his natyashastra where he says that the 7 swaras emanated from nature...each of these r soundz made by certain animals..like dhaivata or Dha is the neighing of the horse..somethign else comes from the elephant trumpet, the peacock's shrill cry etc...indian music's closeness and origins from nature is what makes nature-based concepts(like morning ragas, evenign ragas, seasonal ragas in hindustani music etc) possible...


and i dont know in which language "karnataka sangeeta" means "ancient music"...!!


the point i make is simple...the original Indian music is undoubtedly very old...did i ever contest the claim that indian music is not ancient???? and what an irnoy, u quote a telugu kriti to justify ur claim that Indian music is ancient !!!

and as u rightly pointed out and as i did, a lot of elements were drawn from the ancient tamizh isai...but music like all art forms grows with time..and over the centuries, it metamorphosed into soemthign totally different, which we know today as Carnatic music...in the north turko persian elements interacted with the native music of Dhrupad (the music which baharata's Natyashastra and Saranga dev's sangeeta ratnakara speaks abt) to give rise to the Hindustani khayal music of today....so art form is a continuously growing thing...
this being the case, any particular community or clan, or linguistic combination claiming that th music is their "ancestral property" and all others are "like sparks from the main Jothi" is in my view a very untenable and self serving argument...

thus, i conclude by saying that ur initial idea of telugu being alien to carnatic music which triggered this debate is soemthing i dont agree to...because something is alien if it isnt a part of it...telugu, kannada, sanskrit, malayalam, even Marathi(in terms of abhangas) have contributed to carnatic music's growth as much or perhaps much more than tamil has and hence nothign is alien to the music...the fact that a lot of musicians or Rasikas r from tamil nadu doesnot make carnatic music an out and out tamilian music....its an "INdian classical music" form and letz leave it at that...like India, it too has a composite colour of different hues which we need to understand, appreciate and respect...else carnatic music will get confined to the state of tamil nadu only and to the select few Tam brahms who would undrestand and appreciate it...letz not have things come to that pass..


it was nice discussing things with u..i mean no malice...was just peeved by irrational arguments...good luck and god bless!