Combating Corruption in developing countries

[Cinefan]

Since Sudhaama is here and Cinefan is also quoting some sanskrit slokas, let me break open this discussion further and along controversial line a bit. Advise me if you find this a digression and I will stop it right there.
How much of this prevalence and don't care attitude of common man to it a result of Hindu religious beliefs?
For example, the karma theory and next birth. Surely affected people do not go the extra mile to see the offending corrupt person is punished. Rather he/she adopts a meek line of thought and says his bad karma will punish him or GOD will take care of him instead of steadfastly applying himself/herself to the task of reporting and fighting it out legally. Currently people with sufficient political background and monetary power alone seem to be fighting against corruption byan individual. These people, it seems can be bought over and compromised easily as they are not fighting a personal battle. When are our religious leaders going to advice public to fight corruption(which is an evil right before eyes) instead of fighting an abstract evil? Do you think if the acharyas, maulvis , priests in our temples, mosques and churches ask people to take corruption head on this problem will be solved?

I don't think the 'karma 'theory has got anything to do with it,it's just the system which wears down the complainent than the accused.Today if I decide to say that I will never bribe anyone in my life,what are the consequences,no of my work esp related to govt will get priority or might not get done at all.to whom do I complain-the Lok Ayukta.They might interfere once&get my work done but I can't go to them at every stage.there are so many laws,clauses,sub clauses that I can be made to walk till my death,after all we have read/seen cases like that.So it's not the karma theory but the lack of an effective,time bound deterrent which has made even the few honest people(they might not accept bribes but will not take a strong stand against giving) accept corruption as a way of life.having said this,I maintain that a deterrent alone will not eradicate corruption in India becos of it's huge population.There has to be a turnaround in the mindset of the people.In this respect i agree with Jai that religious leaders can to some extent influence people.But unfortunately the trend today is that 'mathas' themselves are getting into the money making business by opeaning educational institutions from K.G to Engg/dental&so they are also compromised.Next,every caste/subcaste has it's own religious leaders&so first there has to be unity in them.I only see pessimism all around.

[Sandeep]

Reading the initial post in this thread I thought there is going to be some serious consentrated discussions here without diversions.

But here comes religion into it, soon language and then gender will come.

[Sandeep]

1. What are the root causes of corruption?
- A combination of lack of self respect, consideration for fellow being and dicipline.

2. What is the actual impact of corruption on common people?
- Most importantly loose of faith. Faith in the system, life, ideals and country. One will be happy even in suffering if he knows that geniune attempts are being made to improve the situation.

3. Is there no solution for corruption?
- Corruption cannot be rooted out completely as greed and selfishness are part of life. But by multiple actions from all can sure control it. There is no one short wonder pill for corruption.

4. Is democracy a hurdle in weeding out corruption?
- Democracy only leads to the democratisation of corruption. What is missing is leadership. In USSR it was said that there was only one mafia and that was the Govt. Where as now there are multiple mafia groups. Same is the case with corruption.

5. What can elements of civil society do to remove corruption?
- Media ofcource has a very important role to play. It has to not only bring out dirt but also make sure that public interest is carried to the result. This needs that newer and fresher facts are brought out. There courts have a very important role since its imposible to retain public interest for the kind of period that courts take.

6. What can the common man do to combat corruption?
- Common man should be more involved and informed in the day to day happenings around him. He should be involved more in discussions and not shy away. How many will take part in a anti-curruption protest march (non-political). Very few. Inspite of corruption being so rampant and wide spread why there has not been a single large case public responce to that. A religious, caste, or political meeting would attract thousands.

[jaiganes]

Sandeep!
I introduced religion only as a counterpoint to the argument that people at an individual level remain unaffected by corruption. Religion, spirituality and attachment to ideals is one element that can reach the most innermost reaches of one's mind even when one is all alone at home. In certain forms, religion can also act as deterrent to refrain from corruption. If there is no fear of law that stops one from corruption, then atleast the fear of the Lord might do it, right?
Anyways as sandeep feels it is a digression, I am not going to delve into that area anymore.
By the same token, expecting everyone who is corrupt to turn over a new leaf overnight is also a bit too dreamy a thought.
I strongly feel that there exists a three part solution to this problem. Contradicting my earlier statement, I am going to propose a part US and part Chinese model of solution.
Part 1. Strong independent agency that investigates, monitors all Govt. officials, judges and elected representatives for financial impropriety all times. If it is not possible atleast a notion that they are watching all the time must exist, like the "Big Brother" watching over you all the time that prevails in USA. In case of law enforcement agencies, the whole process of filing a complaint , carrying an investigation, everything must be digitized and there should be a strong "Internal Affairs" kind of agency that must be keeping a constant vigil over the law enforcement agencies. The salary and perks paid to this new agency and associated arms must be unparalleled so as to keep them aloft of any temptations.
Similarly Salaries of judges must be relatively high and in addition any judicial officer or police officer should be barred from standing in elections after retirement also.

Part 2. Setting up special anti-corruption courts that have special laws governing them which prevent undue stretching of cases guaranteeing speedy justics and severe punishment. Punishments should be like penalties to the tune of 10 times the amount received by the accused. Failing to submit that, attaching all properties of the accused and that of his/her near relatives(ala Citizen style), debarring them from ration and electoral rolls, cancellation of retirement benefits. If the accused is serving in armed forces, health services (like government hospital), education or law enforcement, the punishments can be severe than normal and the person may be denied a chance of appeal.

Part 3. Grants and rewards to people who act as informers in exposing corruption. People providing leads to moles in their department will be given promotions and paid vacation. If common public helps the anti corruption special force, then financial rewards free of tax should be awarded. Details of that person should be a guarded secret, exposed only after the guilty is punished.

I guess this plan might just work. Some might feel it is too radical and costly to implement this. I would like to implore them that every person is paying 20% corruption tax for buying anything or using any service today. If there were no corruption, our growth rate is automatically adjusted to 12% (we are still in 6 to 7 % range). If someone is corrupt totally will it stop him or her? I dont know, but it will definitely act as a deterrent to those who are sitting on the fence. I guess even if that is achieved, it will be a spectacular result.

[Sandeep]

Jaiganes all that you have said will sure help reduce corruption. But seriously do you think what India lacks is the mechanism to handle corruption or the will power/desire to do so.

Our law and our agencies have the means and methods to handle corruption but we as a country dont have the will power and determination to root it out.

The same 'common man' who brags about corruption doesnt hesitate to give bribe so as to get services. And I am not speaking about essential services. For instance an 18yr old's father is ready to pay to get DL for his son through back channel.

[jaiganes]

Sandeep wrote:

But seriously do you think what India lacks is the mechanism to handle corruption

Please go to the first post and read the document link provided.
Most of the laws are archaic and the loop holes are simply too many in cases of corruption. While the Indian criminal procedure code has been amended to keep abreast of times, the section pertaining to corruption has remained as archaic as ever. The mechanism needs to be toughened up. Corruption has reached a level where radical thoughts need to be applied.

Sandeep wrote:

but we as a country dont have the will power and determination to root it out.

It is because we are being ruled by rulers who live in glass houses, therefore they are unable to throw stones in the right direction. That is where influential opinion makers with clean images should step forward. Corruption Hatao (remove corruption) should be the first mantra, even before Gharibi hatao (remove poverty). Political parties and their inner organization also should be brought under the microscope of public accountability. Big media should report corruption meter daily as they would temperature readings in big cities. If a state is identified as highly corrupt, budgetary allocations should be reduced, till its governemtn comes clean on corruption front. Trust me, if a government decides to have balls no body can stop that. Classic example is present TN govt is bold enuf to say, 'Ration card - change' and citizens fall in line. So it is not unprecedented. If the same government says 'corruption - punishable and beware', see what is the response. Right now there is no political will thats it. Even with political will, our archaic laws will prove to be a huge obstacle, to correct which I had detailed a few hard steps earlier.

Sandeep wrote:

For instance an 18yr old's father is ready to pay to get DL for his son through back channel.

Put one such dad in jail, see how the son will never try to bribe another oficial for his lifetime.

[Shakthiprabha.]

Put one such dad in jail, see how the son will never try to bribe another oficial for his lifetime.

How can we trace down, when the official is too happy receiving a
handsome sum, and the dad is not glum at all to pay the same.?

I am happy, u are happy. So who would complain???

Barter system after all. As long as I get what I want, WHY should I dream of bringing in law?

Again if I bring in law, where would I be justiced? Even more IMPORTANT QUESTION IS "WHEN WILL I SEE JUSTICE?

Need to pay bribe or exhorbitant fee to the lawyer and after all this, the son still wont have any seat. Who is benefited? THE COUNTRY?
Too heavily populated to learn from few lessons.

Here I am, happy to save money for bribe from my son/daughter's childhood.....

1. I dont lose anything as I was mentally prepared(better than walking up and down the court room to put the official behind the bar)
2. my son gains seat
3. official is happy
4. No torture of hooligans troubling me for having taken legal action.


Now, a prudent, diligent person can have his chioce. WHAT WOULD BE MAJORITY'S choice?

[Sandeep]

That says it all.

That is what majority thinks and that is why we are where we are.

[jaiganes]

If it were US, what would have been SP's reply?
SP you are forgetting one thing. just because you pay, there are hooligans waiting there for your money. It is true that the procedure can be simple leading to lesser hassle in getting things legally. But, but but.... In USA getting DL is very very difficult , yet people don't bribe because, bribing an official is an offence and a very serious one at that. If the official takes the money and lets say spends it even on a hairpin, IRA will get a wind of that and start proceedings, even without the knowledge of local police, which means our officer who paid will have to run around for months behind IRA and local courts, probably end up losing his job. Thats why u need independent agencies with strong power, faster court support. If these are done, then even if u voluntarily offer bribe, there will be no takers at all. It is sad that you will not hesitate to bribe someone and get things done. I would rather wait and have it done slowly than to bribe someone and get it done fast. The result of this bribe is not very cheap. Coz we have
1.a kid who doesn't know how to drive properly driving a vehicle
2. a kid who thnks it is better to bribe and get things done

So thanks to this small bribe episode, you have a kid who may end up dead in a road accident(worser.. kill someone in an accident) or someone who is going to spread corruption further in the society. In the first eventuality it is a disaster and in the second eventuality it is a social catastrophe.
So I would prefer to be taken for a ride by the officer issuing license for a stern test of my driving abilities as it happens in USA. What gets proven is ultimately it is the upper class and middle class people who create the filth of corruption and it is they who also cry foul in the name of corruption. the pooper section is a mute spectator to this phenomenon and a silent victim.
Another point to ponder....
SUNTV said in a program that govt offics are totally corrupt in TN.
Who are the corrupt people? no doubt it is the govt employees.
When govt fires govt employees en masse SunTV changes sides and supports these mostly corrupt govt employees. Most of the media(print and electronic) toes along that line.
When state govt. budget is released, opposition parties cry saying govt employees do not get anything extra in this budget.
why this double stadards? I say all govt staff should be denied bonus and other economic packages till they improve thier moralities and reduce corruption. If an act like this is passed and independent agencies are asked to monitor (like Tehelka expose), then we will see reduced corruption and that will be the first step to eliminating corruption.

[lordstanher]

Put one such dad in jail, see how the son will never try to bribe another oficial for his lifetime.

How can we trace down, when the official is too happy receiving a
handsome sum, and the dad is not glum at all to pay the same.?
I am happy, u are happy. So who would complain???
Barter system after all. As long as I get what I want, WHY should I dream of bringing in law?

Corrpution doesn't always hav to concern only money in the form of bribe.....imagine if the kid was not a son but a daughter, then the official cud've even shamelessly asked the father to send her to his home 4 a nite & u know the rest.....she'd get a seat in sum course she was applying 4 (eg.) the next day......!
Wat wud ur reaction be then?? Wudn't u want to bring in the law then??
I've heard of such cases where girls get jobs in cos. in this way.....so bribing doesn't nec. hav to be in monetary form...can hav even worse demands!