Evolution of Saivaism and it's development in Tamil Nadu

[r_kk]

Saivam or any religion Vegetarionism is important, and God has made all internal parts of HUMANS, As Vegetarians only.

Dear Solomon,

1. I feel, Veg. concept was a very later one to Vedic Hinduism and the major contributors to such concept were Buddhism and Jainism.
2. There was/is no clear cut definition about Vegetarianism in Vedic Hinduism. For example, fish is considered as Veg among Bengali Hindus.
3. Human body can digest non-veg food easily. I had seen most of my Korean/Japanese/Chinese friends eating raw fish heavily and digesting it without any problem. So, your statement is wrong.
4. Your statement "God made human" is highly doubtful. I feel opposite way.

Regarding other points, I don't want to poke my nose at this moment.

For others,
why can't we use latest genetic research to discuss history and beliefs? I read the following interesting articles recently after reading about Dr Spencer Wells’s documentary "Journey of Man" telecasted in National Geographic.

1. The Piramalai kallar, Suthroids and many south Indian tribes have been found to be close match with remote African tribes.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...z&artid=379225

2. East African tribes also have a "mountain god" named "Murungu" (omnipotent universal god)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Itha...o/sud_afr.html
Surprisingly, the piramali Kallar community and some Adi Dravidian communities also praise "Murugan" as the primary God and these community had settled in and around madurai (early rulers too) long time back (pre sankam, even pre-historic)


Did Dravidians (early settlers) had their own God before (assumed) later migration of other human races to India?

(Note: All the caste names used here are purely for educational/understanding purpose only. I personally feel all humans are equal irrespective of their races, migration periods, origins. No human/language is superior than another)

[solomon]

Friends,

Rrk, has put a simple query, but highly thoughtful and needs complete History to be seen. Firstly Vegetarianism is not Vedic, but influenced by Buddhist and Jains. Firstly I Explain with example, by all available Proofs Buddhism came to Tamilnadu by King Asoka, first landing at Srilanka, and then Crossing to TN. Srilankan Bud-Bikshus have always been Non-Vegetarians in History. So fully putting that Buddists and Jains are responsible is not fully supported by History. Secondly Buddhism and Jainism are not Different Religions to say. They are Developments of Reformations, as a branch of Hinduism, as Protestants to Christinaity. 20th Century Cunning Missionary Minded Indologists divide and called it that way. All Buddhist Statues and Stupas where Buddha is depicted has with Tilak in Head, and quiet a few Godess Lakshmi Statues have been in Archeological findings dated to PreBCE datings in this Stupa areas, and similar is Jainism.

Rrk, puts Rational Question-Did God Created Man? Friend This thread is on Saivite God worship method, I am sure I CAN present Theistic views.

For Rrk- friend Vupanishads have Argued all positions including Atheistic and Buddhism and Jainism are Historically developments of Vupanisadic Argument and the Oldest Lit. of both are More Agnostic, than Theistic is the Truth, with belief in Karma Theory, of repeated Births.

Personally I believe more Agnostic, and with Para Sciences proving Repeated Births, I Trust Karma Theory is scientific. Every Activity You do in this birth would give reflect in your Next Birth, in which Country you are born, to which family, are you full or with any Physical or Mental Handicaps etc.,, are all Decided before Birth and the Individual Child has no choice.

Rrk- I ACCEPT that All Humans were first created in Africa and later moved to other Continents. However We need to understand, man is another Animal till Man started using Brains, and thrived in Civilisation, by Destroying Forests and making Villages and Towns. Friends, all these happened only after the Great IceMelt AS Scientist call around BCE12,000 and Probably speaking all started later.

Man as a Mammal was made Vegetarian and not otherwise is the Scientific view. Simple example is look at all Vegetarian Mammals, they do not have Harsh Teeth to eat Flesh of other Animals, and similar is the Internal Digestive System. Of all Animals in land Elephant a Vegetarian Lives for long life, with Stamina for long hours, Horses run with Vegetarian food, for example. Man must live for up to 150 to 200 years Healthily, but due to his wrong eating habits we see all sorts of ailments and life time curtailed, Digestive power of Man reduces and every Doctor asks you to eat less you cross 40.

So Science do not support Non-Vegetarianism, Man Lives non for his Needs but for Desires and get into troubles, and Non Vegetarianism is one.


Vedas belong to a Period of BCE 2000 or earlier, Now world is changed and become a village, even a Desert or a Famine Hit Country can import from other parts Vegetarian foods. You showed Eskimos; even they can live with Canned Veg. foods. I Do not compel anybody, but give you both Scientific and Theistic Views, as Tiruvalluvar said Very clearly on that, so below-

Than Vun Perkkathirku Than Pirithu Vun Vunban
Enkanam Alum Arul. Kural-251
If some body eats Flesh of other animal to maintain his body and flesh, he cannot expect Divine Blessings. Everybody must avoid eating Meat etc., if you want to reach God' Blessings.


Hence Vegetarian is not only Theistic, but Scientific, Rrk on your other links I have answered basically, still I NEED much more detailed answer in coming postings. If need be please Open another Thread on Vegetarian verses Non-Veg and let me link you to various Scientific sites.

MosesMdSolomon

[Idiappam]

Solomon blabered:

b]Than Vun Perkkathirku Than Pirithu Vun Vunban
Enkanam Alum Arul. Kural-251 [/b]
If some body eats Flesh of other animal to maintain his body and flesh, he cannot expect Divine Blessings. Everybody must avoid eating Meat etc., if you want to reach God' Blessings.

Which word in the above kural means 'God'??
Which word in the above kural means 'Divine'??
Which word in the above kural means 'Blessings'??

How long more are you going to stay around in this world misinterpreting Tamil works?

[aravindhan]

So fully putting that Buddists and Jains are responsible is not fully supported by History.

All orthodox Jains are very strictly vegetarian. As far as buddhism goes, there was historically a split between Mahayana (which urged vegetarianism) and Hinayana / Theravada (which permitted meat eating). Mahayana was far more influential in India than Hinayana.

Secondly Buddhism and Jainism are not Different Religions to say. They are Developments of Reformations, as a branch of Hinduism, as Protestants to Christinaity. 20th Century Cunning Missionary Minded Indologists divide and called it that way.

It depends on how you define Hinduism, I think. Traditionally, both Buddhism and Jainism were considered nastika, and therefore were beyond the pale as far as orthodox Hindus were concerned. This was in particular caused by the way they expressly - and agressively - denied the sanctity of the vedas. This is as close to heresy as you can get in Hinduism.

I think we need to draw a distinction between religions which belong to the same tradition, and between sects of one religion. Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism belong to the same tradition but are not the same religion, largely because Buddhist and Jain doctrine is heretical from the perspective of Hindu orthodoxy. Their relationship is therefore more analogous to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam than to Protestantism and Catholicism.

For Rrk- friend Vupanishads have Argued all positions including Atheistic

Which of the 108 upanishads accepted by orthodox Hinduism (and considered part of the vedas) espouses an atheistic position (as distinct from describing it in the course of purvapaksha)? Please don't drag in non-vedic "upanishads" like the shvasanaveda upanishad (or, for that matter, Dara Shikoh's so-called "Allah upanishad").

Personally I believe more Agnostic, and with Para Sciences proving Repeated Births, I Trust Karma Theory is scientific.

Could you please elaborate on the "scientific" basis of the theory of karma?

Man as a Mammal was made Vegetarian

The situation is a little trickier than that. Scientists agree that we are not designed to be carnivores exclusively, but that doesn't mean we were "made vegetarian." The scientific consensus is actually that man is designed to be an omnivore. The evidence for this is, in brief:
- our closest genetic relatives, the chimpanzees, are omnivores.
- we lack bodily organs to break down cellulose, which herbivores generally have in one form or another
- our molars resemble those of ominvores (such as pigs) very closely. The fact that our canines are short is irrelevant - gorillas and baboons have extremely long canines, and they are almost exclusively vegetarian. The fossil record from australopithecus to homo erectus appears, on the contrary, to indicate an evolution away from a diet based primarily on fruit.
- our intestinal tract, in terms of surface area, is almost midway between those of carnivores and herbivores, particularly when one takes into account the quality of the tract surface, in terms of relative numbers and distribution of the various types of cells.

Hence Vegetarian is not only Theistic, but Scientific

I think the primary argument in favour of vegetarianism is not moral or scientific, but ethical. Vegetarianism represents a more demanding ethic, one which has progressed from "do not harm other people" to "minimise the harm you cause other living things". The ethical argument is an extremely strong one, in my opinion.

[Badri]

Kindly stick to the topic of this thread: Evolution of Saivaism and it's development in Tamil Nadu.

You can have discussions on vegetarianism as a separate thread, though the Indian History & Culture maynot be the right forum for it!

[r_kk]

Dear Sbadri,
Is it possible for you to move the arguments related to vegan concept to a separate thread (starting from Solomen's writing on compulsory vegetarianism for so called spiritual life)? I feel Aravindan's post will be very useful to many hubbers.

[solomon]

Friends,

We shall look on Development of Saivam, or Proper Tamil word Sivaniyam. We do not have Sivan in Tolkappiyam, however As Vedas are referred in at various points, certainly Siva-Rudran is Known to TholKappiar.

Of the Sangam Collections- Kalithogai and ThiruMurugatrupadai are fully Saivastic, and Paripadal when refers to God Muruga’s birth and on Devas Getting Amirtham-Parkadal Kadaithal and Siva Drinking of Poison is said.

The Name Siva is not seen in Sangam Literature at all. Earliest use is as SaivaVathi- in Manimekhalai. Siva is referred as ManiMidarran- Who drank Poison; Sadaian- who has Ganges and Moon in his Sadai; and Mukkannan – for having Third Eye.All of this have been covered in Sangam Lit.

Sangam Literature and Tholkappiyam gives two different worship methods, One is Vedic- by Anthanars; with Fire, Mantras etc., and other is Veriyattu, specifically said for Murugan and also for Durga-Korravai. The Priest is called Velan, and He Sings And Dances Loudly and starts speaking for God, and tells solutions for problems of people.

Friends, Surprisingly- the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament’s altimate God is called ElShaddai and as Bible Lexicons say its Etymology and origin is unknown, and as OT is dated close to Sangam Period- we can say Elshaddai is Siva- My detailed posting shortly in Sanskrit Literature is Elder forum.

When Tamilnadu was dominated by Samanar’s Arrogance, the arrival of 63 Nayanmars took place and Saivam was Revived.

Friends- My posting on Saiva food is due to specific posting bt FSG earlier and as usual Idiyappam has DeConstructed Tirukural, friends please read PulanMaruthal Athikaram26- Arul is always considered as Divine Blessings in Kural 251 and Kural 252 is much more clear here and Valluvar finishes the Atikaram with

Kollan Pulalai Maruttanai KaiKooppi
Ella Vuyirum Tholum -260.

Certainly those of us who are used to Non-Veg, it would be difficult- but Valluvar is clear and Non-Veg is a start from Later Vedics.

Of the Tamil Saiva Literture-Thirumoolar is considered the Oldest- end 5th Cen or mostly 6th Cen, but we have quiet a lot of interpolations in TiruMoolar works.

I shall give you a major collection of Verses on Siva in Sangam works in my next postings.

MosesSolomon

[Idiappam]

We shall look on Development of Saivam, or Proper Tamil word Sivaniyam. We do not have Sivan in Tolkappiyam, however As Vedas are referred in at various points, certainly Siva-Rudran is Known to TholKappiar.

Why isn't 'Saivam' a proper Tamil word? The name 'Sivan' not in Tholkappiam -- the author prefers to call him 'Seyon'. The vedas ar NOT 'refered in' the Tholkappiar. There is no God called 'Siva-Rudran' during his Time. The god 'Siva' has no mention in the Vedas.

The Name Siva is not seen in Sangam Literature at all. Earliest use is as SaivaVathi- in Manimekhalai. Siva is referred as ManiMidarran- Who drank Poison; Sadaian- who has Ganges and Moon in his Sadai; and Mukkannan – for having Third Eye.All of this have been covered in Sangam Lit.

Not true- Siva is talked about many places (at least 100) in Sangam Literature.

Sangam Literature and Tholkappiyam gives two different worship methods, One is Vedic- by Anthanars; with Fire, Mantras etc., and other is Veriyattu, specifically said for Murugan and also for Durga-Korravai. The Priest is called Velan, and He Sings And Dances Loudly and starts speaking for God, and tells solutions for problems of people.

Many forms of worship are mentioned there, not only Vedic and veriyaatu! Check on them!

When Tamilnadu was dominated by Samanar’s Arrogance, the arrival of 63 Nayanmars took place and Saivam was Revived.

No --- only a couple of Nayanmars took on the Samanars (Jains). Please note that not all Nayanmars wrote songs. Kannappar did not write (or sing) anything. He knew no Samanars either.

Friends- My posting on Saiva food is due to specific posting bt FSG earlier and as usual Idiyappam has DeConstructed Tirukural, friends please read PulanMaruthal Athikaram26- Arul is always considered as Divine Blessings in Kural 251 and Kural 252 is much more clear here and Valluvar finishes the Atikaram with
Kollan Pulalai Maruttanai KaiKooppi
Ella Vuyirum Tholum -260.

Irellavant - But anyway, it is nice to see that you have started to read the Kural.

Certainly those of us who are used to Non-Veg, it would be difficult- but Valluvar is clear and Non-Veg is a start from Later Vedics.

What are you saying there??

Of the Tamil Saiva Literture-Thirumoolar is considered the Oldest- end 5th Cen or mostly 6th Cen, but we have quiet a lot of interpolations in TiruMoolar works.

You are wrong again. Madam Karaikkaal Ammai is the earliest of Saivite Saints. Her songs are placed under Thirumurai 11.

I shall give you a major collection of Verses on Siva in Sangam works in my next postings.

Just a few paragraphs above you said -- "The Name Siva is not seen in Sangam Literature at all." Scroll up and see. Solomon you better stop pretending you know Sangam Literature.

And please post the verses on Siva in Sangam works. If you don't , I will.

[mahadevan]

Bhaktha Markandeya, this story just as other saivite works is clearly tamil. The word Markandeya clearly illustrates the tamil(hindu) concept of creation/destruction. According to mythology this guy was given the boon of immortality by Siva. Creation/destruction is defined as a cycle in our mythology(ofcourse it is also translated to sanskrit). Every thing comes from nothing and then becomes nothing and so the cycle continues. When every thing becomes nothing even the gods die a natural death, just to rise again. But since our Markandeyan has immortality even in this nothingness, he is levitating some where. He has seen the other side (the side of nothingness) that even the gods did not see. So he is the one who has seen(kanda) the other(mar) side, so he is called as Markandavan, markandeyan. Nice story buy etymology says its tamil origin.

[Badri]

And here I was thinking that since he was the son of Mrikandu Maharishi he was named Markandeya!!