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Thread: Significance of the Maasi Maham-Siva & Sakthi Valipaadu

  1. #11
    Moderator Veteran Hubber Badri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pradheep
    And what about the one who sees everything before him with kindness and love, but sees no god???
    How can one see love and not God and that is the meaning of Anbe-shivam. God is love and not a form.

    Gnani Gnani Gnani
    Good one, that!

    Is God a person? Or is God a concept?

    Sivame Anbu is the former creed.
    Anbe Sivam is the latter ideation.

    To those who cannot go beyond themselves, who cannot perceive the abstractness of the whole thing, God is a person. To all such people are prescribed a whole plethora of names and forms and rituals and chants. Because they may find it difficult to think of Love in itself, they are shown a God with a form who is love.

    But, to those who can think beyond their limited self, who can understand that there is more to the world than just their limited bodily, existence, who can actually practice such values as love and kindness, as Idiappam has said, God is only a concept. God is only another name for those very values they live their life by. The names and the forms and the rituals and the chants which are mere implements are no longer needed, for they are able to visualize a much higher form of Love and Truth. They are not limited to the "person", and hence have no need for a God with a name and form.

    It is as Pradeep has said, the sign of a Gnani!
    When we stop labouring under the delusion of our cosmic self-importance, we are free of hindrance, fear, worry and attachment. We are liberated!!!

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  3. #12
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    Dear badri
    Very well written and clear. Thanks

  4. #13
    Senior Member Devoted Hubber r_kk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbadri99

    Is God a person? Or is God a concept?

    Sivame Anbu is the former creed.
    Anbe Sivam is the latter ideation.

    ... for they are able to visualize a much higher form of Love and Truth. They are not limited to the "person", and hence have no need for a God with a name and form!
    Bold marking was done by me...

    In my opinion the above sentence is complete if it would have been "hence have no need for a God."

    Anbe Sivam… or God is love…

    The above sentence in various forms has been discussed many times in this thread. Let me talk more practical and look from different perspective.

    “Anbe Sivam”. Is it correct or has any meaning in real sense? Is human type God or an abstract concept, nothing but a way of expressing Love and humanity?

    If you watch food habit of animal kingdom, we can note that how meat eating animals are ruthless… There are many animals and insects are born to kill… Even grass eating animal are also ruthless if grass is considered as life form. Pain and sufferings are common… so-called God or Nature doesn’t bother to stop any of these natural cycle or process of life.

    If you see any natural (ex.. Tsunami) and man made tragedies (ex. Kumbakonam school tragedy, Rwanda killings, or any wars) you can note that how innocents human (even children) had suffered lot and perished painfully… No God ever saved any of these beings from sufferings.

    The real and painful truth is that the so-called God or Nature neither bother to protect/ taking care with Love nor to destroy/ throw away with hatred.

    The people who escaped some tragedies call those incidents as miracles, ignoring the facts that so many other fellow beings had suffered miserably in the same/similar incidences. There is no miracle in real life… only possibilities of escapes or probability of positive occurrence. The miracle for one may be suffering to another (In Semitic religions the so called God helps particular sect of people to win over enemies. The winners claim those as miracles and even claim their God as universal including for their enemies)

    Actually we attribute positive aspects and good things in our view point to God and call those aspects as good, holy, beautiful and heaven. The opposites are called as Satan, Sin, Ugly and hell. A good thing for one might be a bad thing for another. Some great Cultural practice of some human segment might be totally wrong for some another segment.

    Good and bad, love and hatred, divine and sin and all opposites are just two sides of a same coin. We judge every thing based on our own perspective, the way we brought up and the way our thinking process is molded. So, we can’t generalize and call our own culture as the great ones or superior. It may be great for us in our view point and might be totally bullshit for others.

    The so-called God is neither love nor hatred. Our natural eagerness in expecting positive aspects of life creates our own God. We create our own God on our own shape (or the shape we know based on limitation of our thinking process) as result of harshness of reality or lack of understanding the nature. We are happy with the God that we had created out of this process and with the concepts that meet our selfish demands. That’s why we human have so many religions and so many types of Gods. Any religious conversion or cultural change is nothing but search of more suitable God or a practice which can meet the individual/group’s need and expectations.

    Netrikan thirapinum kutram kutrame...

  5. #14
    Moderator Veteran Hubber Badri's Avatar
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    r_kk: Really appreciate your level-headedness. Only one thing is puzzling and quite out of character about you. You seem unable to get out of this common man's perception of God.

    On the one hand you denounce it as an imaginary concept, and you have explained it so beautifully!! Yet, on the other hand, you seem to be unable to come out of the same imaginary personification yourself!!

    It is man's natural and irrestistible urge to classify and name everything he observes. I remember studying this as the opening statement of by Biology course on Taxonomy (Science of Classification).

    Based on that, as you have said, man's given names to the so-called "good", "bad", "ugly" etc etc

    Some he called God, some people personified it, imagined and worshipped a form with attributes. Others said it is formless, it is nameless, that we can't even say its name. Still others said there is no such entity as these groups were claiming!

    Big dea!!

    But, it is a big deal! Why is it a big deal? Because that is how the majority of human beings are viewing it! They see something good, they immediately call it Divine. Can you stop it? Can I stop it? Can all of the participants in this Hub stop people from doing that? The answer is a plain and simple NO.

    This is the reality. We have to face this reality. Let us say the word GOD is totally banned from usage, abolished. Guess what will happen? Man will invent a new word, "ASFSDF" and then claim, "All that is good, that is pure, that is nice, love, kindness, charity, courage, valour, might, etc etc is all ASFSDF!"

    Centuries have rolled past since the civilizations began, and it has been the same story. Nothing you can say can change that inexorable flow of man's thought.

    This being the case, what is the best we can do?

    a) Rave and rant against it, as some people do

    b) Accept it, and become attached to the concept as the others are

    c) Reject it in personal life, but understand that one's own personal rejection of the existence of God will make no differnce whatsoever to the faith/life of all the others who do accept its existence

    d) Dismiss all this as worthless and live a life that is as best as is possible within one's own strength.

    I think (d) is the best bet, at least if I did not believe in God. I strongly believe in God, yet I still subscribe to (d).

    Your sleeping child finds security in the teddy bear it cuddles up to. The teddy bear is not going to keep the child safe. There is nothing it can do at all, yet to the child, holding the teddy tightly brings relief. What would you, the rationalist father, do? Try and explain to the child the absurdity of its idea? Take away the teddy bear by force? No, you will smile, and pull the covers a little closer to keep the child warm and make a mental note to buy a softer teddy bear for her next birthday.

    God, my dear r_kk, is the teddy bear for many people.


    TOO MUCH DIGRESSION FROM TOPIC!! AS USUAL!!!
    When we stop labouring under the delusion of our cosmic self-importance, we are free of hindrance, fear, worry and attachment. We are liberated!!!

  6. #15
    Senior Member Veteran Hubber rajraj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbadri99

    God, my dear r_kk, is the teddy bear for many people.


    TOO MUCH DIGRESSION FROM TOPIC!! AS USUAL!!!
    Badri,
    I generally stay away from discussions related to religion and politics. Your teddy bear analogy reminded me of an after dinner discussion we had long time back. It was about Bertrand Russell, a Nobel laureate. He was an atheist. Somebody wondered how a nobel laureate could be an atheist. Another friend quipped: ' God is crutch for many. If they need it let them have it. If you are strong enough not to need it so be it.' Russell was an intellectual, philosopher and mathematician.
    " I think there is a world market for may be five computers". IBM Chairman Thomas Watson in 1943.

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    If you watch food habit of animal kingdom, we can note that how meat eating ,,,,,,,,,,,, Nature doesn’t bother to stop any of these natural cycle or process of life.

    If you see any natural (ex.. Tsunami) and man made tragedies (ex. Kumbakonam school tragedy,,,,,,,,, No God ever saved any of these beings from sufferings.
    Man created this feeling thought " God is love and compassionate". Well that is a concept. We make that statement and when life incidents does not fit that statement we accuse God. What an Irony.

    So we create concepts and suffer from it.

    The truth is, God (Brahmam) is formless and eternal without attributes.

    Now you will surely point me that I am contradicting what I wrote here and about God is love in Anbe-shivam. This is because we do not know what love is. The love we think is of expectations, a bussiness. I will do this and you do that in return....I will scratch your back and you have to scratch my back ...otherwise you have no love for me.

    Anbe-shivam giving my the great saint MV doesnot mean to this type of love. In sorrow of life, like any mortal he had cried out of pain and asked for help. Buthe realized the Truth finally that heand shivam is one and the same. This one-ness is Love. and that "love" is shivam. "Love" crosses barriers of Ego and whatis Ego? Ego means separation (duality). A mother's love is equated to God's love because she does not feel herself and her baby as two different entity.

    Mother is God because the creator, the creation and the created are one. It is her own body (raw material) that is used for creation and who creates the child,it is her body and what comes out of it, her own body...so she and her child is the same...no difference. This is love ...anbu (Anbe-shivam).

    This shivam is not a shiva with a jada mudi and a snake around his neck and ganga and crescent moon on his head.

    So you create a concept of God as merciful, compassionate and loving and take you to heaven....then you have to suffer from the story you make.

    Idiappam asked me whether I know God. I know what I am writing about. Anyone can know ...but needs a preparation for that and that is what is explained in sanskrit or tamil vedas. I dont see any difference in both and I see the same God through both.

  8. #17
    Senior Member Senior Hubber Idiappam's Avatar
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    Sir Pradheep said:
    Idiappam asked me whether I know God. I know what I am writing about. Anyone can know ...but needs a preparation for that and that is what is explained in sanskrit or tamil vedas. I dont see any difference in both and I see the same God through both.
    That is not very clear! YOu did not say weather you know god! Anyone can know what? What is explained in 'Tamil Vedas?

    Tamils, even greatest of all Saivite Saints have declared 'No one have seen Him, no one knows him!'

    Do the Sanskrit Vedas say otherwise? That you can see Him?

  9. #18
    Senior Member Devoted Hubber r_kk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbadri99
    TOO MUCH DIGRESSION FROM TOPIC!! AS USUAL!!!
    Very correct. Too much out of subject. If it is possible, please move the irrelevant posts to "Does God Exist" thread.

    I also would like to explain the other aspects of teddy bear analogy. Actually I don’t want my kids to fight over on Teddy bear. More over I hope that they will understand one day that the fights they were made, on teddy bear is really nonsense and it not the real issue for life. If they still continue their fight on teddy bear even after their childhood, I will explain with all my best efforts to make them to understand that teddy bear will not help in real life.

    Quote Originally Posted by pradheep
    So we create concepts and suffer from it.
    The truth is, God (Brahmam) is formless and eternal without attributes. …Now you will surely point me that I am contradicting what I wrote here and about God is love in Anbe-shivam. This is because we do not know what love is.
    Dear Pradheep,
    Your concept of God can be discussed in different approach using
    * Existence sub atomic level particles
    * uncertainty in existence of particles
    * particles in the form of energy
    * anti-particles
    * Consideration of thought as form of energy and unification of energy
    * human psychological/emotional need for God
    * human neurological wirings in brain

    If we discuss the God in the above aspect also, we may end up in a simple/complex natural process which do not have any wishes to create or destroy or performing miracle. The God concept, evolved through such process of thinking, will be really no use for all our practical needs.

    In all my analogy, I use the word God just to make believers to understand things. I can try to explain in detail, from my perspective, in a relevant thread and when situation demands. But the major hurdle to start this kind of discussion with believers is that believers do not believe even our thinking process as real. If we keep our base limit of discussion as God is beyond all virtual/real comprehension, and thinking/the subject we think/the object which permits us to think all as nothing but same one (oneness or advida), then we will end of no where. All our efforts become useless and just waste of time. I remember that you and Rohit made endless argument on this issues already...
    Netrikan thirapinum kutram kutrame...

  10. #19
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    God is beyond all virtual/real comprehension,
    It is possible and that is the purpose of spiritual practice. I argued in God exists thread but it had to end up because there was no discussion but only vidanta vada. In discussion one can argue that the other person's perception is wrong and give evidence for proving the point. But it is open so that one either finds wrong and corrects himself (both sides). But in vidanta vada one's is of the belief that the other is wrong and no intention of correction and is only in every way to slander the other person is wrong.

    I understand all your aprticles, energy, psycological needs of God. But I am not talking about it. I am taking that everything is the expression of the "one".

  11. #20
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    Tamils, even greatest of all Saivite Saints have declared 'No one have seen Him, no one knows him!'

    Do the Sanskrit Vedas say otherwise? That you can see Him?
    Dear idiappam
    This is how secret -guhya-rahasyam is interpretted. People think it is secret means it should not be told to others. No...it means that it cannot be told ....kandavar vindilar....vindavar kandilar......it is a catch-20 statment. When Isay I saw with my physical eyes then I really did not see God....but when I say...I saw....I cannot explain because it is my self that I see (know). Words cannot do the job....that is the secret. This is the secret....one can point the direction but only one can know it...and cannot show it others as one would show an object...becauseGodis not an object.

    The above said aspect is very clear both in tamil and sanskrit scriptures.

    well Put in other words....I am God (pradheep) chatting with God(Idiappam). The illusion is that there are Two Gods...infact it is the same one God.

    This illusion is Maya.....beautifully given in Thirumandiram....

    "marathil marainthathu maa-madam yanai...."


    This is the one of the chants I love to recite...I am teaching that to my son because he as a kid loves elephants and toys and through this thirumandiram song I am helping him to grasp the Truth.

    I would bodly say..ifsoemone got the secret ofthis fourlinesof thirumandiram one can see God....I could not resist to so to quotes these lines in my book on matrix. Itis such powerful lines.

    The same we see in sanskrit literature which I mean that not a translation of the song, but the same intendeddmeaning as different sloka.

    Also anlayse the verse 488 . how like ... the cuckoo bird dropping its egg in the nest of the crow ....so is maya.

    Many friends dislike me explaining with examples and symbols. Well they dont understand infact everything is only symbols. Even in science when we say light is like a wave we draw a wave....but really is light wavein that form...well generally people think that way... in reality it is not that way.

    Same with atom ....we draw a center nucleus and then another circle (orbit) with electron going around. it is only a symbol. In reality the electron doesnot go that way....it is only a model.... but such a figure is given only to drive the thought to understand the concept.

    This is the secret....of the self.....this secret is revealed only in the enquiring mind which also has quiten the noise of the mind ...can only know the Self. This fact is universal and found in all cultures. But Vedic |(tamil and sanskrit) culture is a good means to know because of the clarity ofthe methodology. The method to enquire the mind and purify it is vividly given (only) In indian culture.


    All other spiritual traditions talk about the signs seen while we travel through the road to thedestination. Vedic |(tamil and sanskrit) culture not only gives the signs but also gives the route in detail. This makes a seeker to reach the destination without getting lost. This s why this Vedic culture has been alive all these centuries and now it is growly rapidly too.

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