Ex-Number One England

[ajithfederer]

Thani thread aa?. Full time fighting dhan appo. Give it a rest both of you

[P_R]

You are crediting England with only Ashes 20010/11 and India 2011 wins. Rest you are pooh-pooh'ing. That is denial.
Assess from Ashes 2009 win. Go series by series like I did and talk about the performances. How good the opposition was and how England performed against them.
In fact - issue a statement against the media campaign that England was pathetic when they lost in WIndies (and messiah Andy Flower appeared).

[P_R]

Thani thread aa?. Full time fighting dhan appo. Give it a rest both of you

Actually I give up.
When reading clipping the posts out for this thread I read it serially. IMO that should more than suffice for anyone reading this thread to reach reasonable conclusions.
I have nothing more to add.
Plum you can take it as a victory, call me a liar and what not.
We have both failed to convince each other.

[wizzy]

thread should read 'Ex ATG team England'

P_R, after Eng's brief reign @ top don't tell me you didn't expect this backlash..more so with Eng supporters/writers who were taking every opportunity to pooh-pooh the rankings/schooling us on how India were 'less deserving' in contrast to this no.1 Eng side with an endless supply of phast bowlers/young bats in the pink of health..ATG or not this Eng couldn't even scale up to that undeserving no.1 Indian side even though they had most things in their favour w.r.t young bats/phast bowlers being injury free/home tests to prolong their reign @ top..
what could have possibly gotten wrong

[ajithfederer]

Two points i disagree.

1) Statistical error. Aus lost to SA in Aus before the 2009 Ashes. 2-1 They lost.

2) India losing the series was not a foregone conclusion. I will repeat till the day I watch cricket Zaheer's inclusion alone would have made a difference. Hell all england wishers were jumping up with joy when he pulled out after 1st day's 3 wickets. Eng beat a depleted India - that is a fact.

P.S: SA still have to beat Aus in home and it would be great to see how they do in Aus. I earlier asked in an other thread when SA is touring India. I don't see any fixture before 2015 WC which is a shame. Their No 1 status is already safe then. Pull them for a 4 test tour and prepare spin tracks let's see who is the No1.

Aus defeating SA will make SA no 2, eng no 3 and Aus 1. (Hypothetically speaking)
Ind defeating both Eng and Aus at home (hehehe) could push them back to 1 again. I would love to see your reaction then.

Plum,

the world did not start with Strauss-Flower. That is a media narrative. For me the marked shift from being pummelled to rise to be a strong competing team starts from Usaibhai in the early '00s.

Which is why I don't believe in 'they were in the doldrums in the WIndies tour and rose like a phoenix' type thoughtless nonsense.
What actually happened in WIndies, one horrid afternoon when they got killed by Jerome Taylor. Two dead rubber pitches, one cancelled match and one which they almost won - all in all they lost the series.

Credit to WIndies for holding England off. But if you read the papers you will be given to believing England were far worse than they actually were at that point, and only the messiah Flower-Strauss delivered them. I for one found it curious that that series is treated as some sort of disaster. Wonder if that's how people think of Aus, when they got blown away last November by SA. No -accidents occur to other teams, while immediate relegation to shite happens only to England.

That they brought the very same team home in a matter of weeks and defeated them, was attributed to home conditions and Flower magic. IMO both were overrated. It was no surprise that England beat that WIndies (who btw magically transformed to seththa paambus in a matter of weeks!). They ought to have beaten them in WIndies itself. (that they didn't is to WIndies' credit, I repeat)

That was followed by the Ashes. What kind of Australia are we talking about? Yeah no Warne, McGrath, Hayden. No Benaud, Lillee, Bradman either.
A team that defeated South Africa both in Aus and S.Africa. By no means a weakling. England competed very ably and defeated them to win the Ashes. But that 'one afternoon' in WIndies was too recent for people to think highly of England yet My clock starts here.

Then, as is famously remembered, they had to compete really hard to level the series in S.Africa. They were not the better team in the competition. That was when my reckoning was under threat and my note to myself was: 'atleast they didn't get toppled'. After that was a dream run that ended when they got pummelled in Dubai. This is when IMO they got knocked off the perch. Do the math.

India

That glorious Sehwag-Sachin victory in Chennai 2008 apart, I don't recall a single memorable win in the last few years.
There was this un-NewZelandy NewZealand tour, which we won.
We crushed SriLanka at home
Couldn't defeat SA at home - even conceded an innings win at home!
Couldn't defeat SL in SL (about time to make up your mind whether they were seththapaambus or not, as the 2011 SL tour to England will come up shortly)
Crushed Aus at home - first time I felt India was good. (ivan solRadhai pArthA, appo nijamaavE ivan kolai seyyalai pOla irukku da)
And then NZ came home. India looked vulnerable and disappointing. Heck, Bhajji holing us to the help draw a match ellAm Of course India was still the better team but to struggle so hard to beat NZ at home was far from convincing.

Then of course the tour SA. Got killed in the first match, but to India's credit came back to draw the series. Even the last match, India was the one under pressure.
India won in WIndies but I expected them to perform better than they actually did.

Far from having several 'good' series, as you claim, I can only see two good ones (Aus at home and SA in SA) and many less than convincing performances.

It was a foregone conclusion that they were going to be rightfully toppled in England.

South Africa

Now let's turn our attention to SAfrica. The most 'liked' No.1 side in the world. The team everyone is eager to say 'is a deserved number 1 unlike it's two predecessors.

They defeated England in England - surely a high point.
They were defeated at home by Australia. They couldn't defeat England or India at home They couldn't defeat Pakistan in Dubai.
What were their high points? That they didn't let a strong India defeat them in India and that they managed to defeat SL at home?
Heck, as recent as November last year they couldn't defeat Aus at home!

Is that why they are somehow the undisputed team in the world now?

IMO it is their three consistent victories over England in Eng-SA-Eng are the most memorable wins for the team.

They surely are the best team in the business now. I am not questioning that at all. But this impression that there is 'spiritually' some yawning gap between them and others is something that confuses me.

[P_R]

thread should read 'Ex ATG team England'

P_R, after Eng's brief reign @ top don't tell me you didn't expect this backlash..more so with Eng supporters/writers who were taking every opportunity to pooh-pooh the rankings/schooling us on how India were 'less deserving' in contrast to this no.1 Eng side with an endless supply of phast bowlers/young bats in the pink of health..ATG or not this Eng couldn't even scale up to that undeserving no.1 Indian side even though they had most things in their favour w.r.t young bats/phast bowlers being injury free/home tests to prolong their reign @ top..
what could have possibly gotten wrong

See, that is exactly the point. You guys are reacting to the English media hype and ATG claims. ATG illainnu naanE paRpala thadavai solliyAchchu.
Who are you debating with then?

Who makes 'domination' as a yardstick? Who made the false allegation that Ashes '09 was dominated by Aus? Who has been devaluing every (both!) dominating series of England as - yeah, no big deal?

All for what? For my claim that England were #1 for longer than a year. Something I believe I have substantiated in the post Feddy has responded to above.

[P_R]

1) Statistical error. Aus lost to SA in Aus before the 2009 Ashes. 2-1 They lost.

You are right. I stand corrected. Aus lost to SA in Aus in 2008.
However, the avenged themselves in the series before the 2009 Ashes was Aus in SA.

2) India losing the series was not a foregone conclusion. I will repeat till the day I watch cricket Zaheer's inclusion alone would have made a difference. Hell all england wishers were jumping up with joy when he pulled out after 1st day's 3 wickets. Eng beat a depleted India - that is a fact.

Agree to disagree.

Ind defeating both Eng and Aus at home (hehehe) could push them back to 1 again. I would love to see your reaction then.

koNdaanga adhaiyum rasichchu vaippOm All homes are equal, all abroads are equal. Therefore, adhuvum oru isai

[ajithfederer]

BTW, What is your prediction for Ind-eng series?. Ippove kettu vechukitta pinnala vasadhiya irukkum !

[wizzy]

ATG illainnu naanE paRpala thadavai solliyAchchu..Who are you debating with then?

forget ATGness..Eng weren't worthy no.1 is my qualm..other than beating 'exhausted' India/OZ hacks what have they done..drew a series against Murali-less SL/whitewashed by 5th ranked Pak..basement rombae weak

Who makes 'domination' as a yardstick?

freewheeling thinkers of the game Indian side which was @ top for 20+ months was our best test side ever assembled and
the overall consensus seems to be the same about OZ/WI no.1 test sides being their best sides ever..can you say the same about this Eng side which was touted to be one??..for starters Vaughan's side which won the Ashes against 'that' OZ side/overseas victory in WI/SA have checked more boxes than this side so there lies the difference imo

[P_R]

wizzy, beating only two weak teams..unselected. Plum kOvamA sonnadhai neenga polite-A solreenga. prachanai ellAm oNNu dhaan. I have described at length England's rise to the top - post Feddy quoted. I think that was a highly impressive run. Thassal.

Indian side which was @ top for 20+ months was our best test side ever assembled

unga captainukku idhu theriyumA

BTW, What is your prediction for Ind-eng series?. Ippove kettu vechukitta pinnala vasadhiya irukkum !

Prediction: England won't win a single test and India will win the series.