Timeline evidences in ancient Tamil works:Earliest Grammar

Historical events and place,time and astrological evidence are necessary in any civilization to delineate the exact date of its Timeline.
In ancient Tamil literature we do have plenty of such events and date markers.
Famous examples are:

Earliest Tamizh Grammar in 6,500 B.C.E.:
From the theory of Hindu kingline at this latest published works:
http://www.sanmarga.org/resources/bo..._timeline.html
http://www.tamilnation.org/heritage/hindutimeline.htm
-which mentions methods of astrlogical calculations of timeline.

-470,000 India's hominids are active in Tamil Nadu and Punjab.

-60,000 According to genetic scientist Spencer Wells' research, televised by National Geographic, early man's first wave of migration from Africa occurred at this time to India, evidenced by the genetic makeup of Tamil Nadu's modern-day Kallar community, who are related to the Australian aborigines.
......

Most dates prior to Buddha (624 bce) are considered estimates.
10,000 Taittiriya Brahmana 3.1.2 refers to Purvabhadrapada nakshatra's rising due east, phenomenon occurring at this date (Dr. B.G. Siddharth of the Birla Science Institute), indicating earliest known dating of the sacred Veda.
10,000 Vedic culture, the essence of humanity's eternal wisdom, Sanatana Dharma, lives in Himalayas at end of Ice Age.
8500 Taittiriya Samhita 6.5.3 places Pleiades asterism at winter solstice, suggesting the antiquity of this Veda.
7000 Time of Manu Vaivasvata, "Father of Mankind," of Sarasvati-Drishadvati area (also said to be a South Indian monarch who sailed to the Himalayas during a great flood).
6776 Start of Hindu king's lists according to Greek references that give Hindus 150 kings and a history of 6,400 years before 300 BCE; agrees with next entry.

-6500 Rig Veda verses (e.g., 1.117.22, 1.116.12, 1.84.13.5) say winter solstice begins in Aries (according to D. Frawley), giving antiquity of this section of the Vedas.
5500 Date of astrological observations associated with ancient events later mentioned in the Puranas (Alain Danielou).
3200 In India, a special guild of Hindu astronomers (nakshatra darshas) record in Vedic texts citations of full and new moon at winter and summer solstices and spring and fall equinoxes with reference to 27 fixed stars (nakshatras) spaced nearly equally on the moon's ecliptic (visual path across the sky). The precession of the equinoxes (caused by the mutation of the Earth's axis of rotation) makes the nakshatras appear to drift at a constant rate along a predictable course over a 25,000-year cycle. Such observations enable specialists to calculate backwards to determine the date the indicated position of moon, sun and nakshatra occurred.

-3139 Reference to vernal equinox in Rohini (middle of Taurus) from some Brahmanas, as noted by B.G. Tilak, Indian scholar and patriot. Now preferred date of Mahabharata war and life of Lord Krishna (see also -1424).
2700 Tolkappiyam Tamil grammar is composed (traditional dating; see also -500).

-2700 Seals of Indus-Sarasvati Valley indicate Siva worship, represented by Pashupati, Lord of Animals.

2500 Reference to vernal equinox in Krittika (Pleiades or early Taurus) from Yajur and Atharva Veda hymns and Brahmanas. This corresponds to Harappan seals that show seven women (the Krittikas) tending a fire.

-2350 Sage Gargya (born 2285), 50th in Puranic list of kings and sages, son of Garga, initiates method of reckoning successive centuries in relation to a nakshatra list he records in the Atharva Veda with Krittika as the first star. Equinox occurs at Krittikia Purnima.

ca -2040 Prince Rama born at Ayodhya, site of future Rama temple (this and next two dates by S.B. Roy; see also -4000).

-2033 Reign of Dasaratha, father of Lord Rama. King Ravana, villain of the Ramayana, reigns in Sri Lanka.
1915 All Madurai Tamil Sangam is held at Thiruparankundram (according to traditional Tamil chronology)

Their calculation based on precession of stars due to earth's wobbling by the same mechanism as with their mention of skywatching records mentioned in Rig and other Vedas has helped to further clarify and prove Tamizh timeline as folows:

what they give by Vedas star positions by Dr.Frawley's work:
seasonal period:date:....month constellation &......:constel&monthstar(s) ....:PRECEDE BY:
.......................................monthstar(s ) in year...............:.. in 2000 C.E.[present]:no:ofmonths=>no:ofyears:date:
vernalequinox:march21:pisces....:poorvbadra-2000..:same.....:same...............:0.0=>0000:200 0C.E.
vernalequinox:march21:pleiades:Krittika-2350B.C.E.:pisces...:purvbadrapada:0.88=>4350:2350 B.C.E.
vernalequinox:march21:plei/taur:Krittika-2500B.C.E.:pisces...:purvbadrapada:1.1=>4500:2500B .C.E.
vernalequinox:march21:taurus...:Rohini -3139B.C.E.:pisces...:purvbadrapada:1.33=>5139:3139 B.C.E.
wintersolstice:decem21:aries.....:1ststar-6500B.C.E.:sagittari:thiruarudra......:3.0=>8500:8 500B.C.E.
wintersolstice:decem21:pleiades:Krittika8500B.C.E. :sagittari:thiruarudra.......:3.88=>10500:8500B.C. E.
*spring start :jan'ry 21:aries......:aswini-6500B.C.E.:capricorn:pusam..............:3.0=>8500 :6500B.C.E.
in Tamil Nadu]
[i]
*We find marking of Tamizh seasons in Tholkappiyam as Perumbozhuthgal', each year divided into 6 seasons, each containing 2 seasons.Tholkappiyam mentions ilavaenil at ciththirai and vaikaasi[spring in april and may];but at present spring in Tamizh Nadu is in thai and maasi[january and february];which means there had been a shift in the positions of star constellations from the time of this record in the first Tamizh grammar book (and passed on from number of generations of masters and students upto the age of writing down of Tholkappiyam nool) to the present day - the aries(aadu iyal-mesha with aswini as first monthstar) constellation had moved from Tamizh spring day -january to april now;
That is:

Spring starts always at January 14 in Tamlzh Naadu;
The source of Tholkaappiyam says Aries(Mesha) constellation was usually seen at the start of Spring--Jan 14;
Presently Aries is seen as the evening star by April 21;

This means there hadbeen a shift of 3 months which is equivalent according to Dr.Frawley's calculations to about, 8,500 years from the present AROUND 6,500 B.C.E. derived as follows:

if 3.88 months shift=>10,500 years:so, 3 months shift=8076 years;or
if 3.00 months shift=>8500 years:so, 3 months shift=8500 years; or
if 1.33 months shift=>5139 years:so, 3 months shift=11563.2 years; or
if 1.1 months shift=>4500 years:so, 3 months shift=12272.73 years; or
if 0.88 months shift=>4350 years:so, 3 months shift=14500 years;

Roughly the date of the 1st Tamizh grammar work (or perhaps copied down second or later Grammar work or Tholkaappiyam itself) was between 8076 years and 14500 years from present;which goes from 6076 B.C.E. to 12500 B.C.E.
to locate the exact date we can take the following methods

Arithmetic mean=8,500/3 *3=8,500=6,500 B.C.E.,
Geometric mean={8100+8500+11563.2+12272.73+14500}/5=54935/5=10,987 years for 3 months shift =8,987 B.C.E.
Median=[midpoint of 2 extreme entries]=from above,{ 14,500+8,100}/2=11,300 for 3 months shift=9,300 B.C.E.
Graphical mode=8,500 years=6,500 B.C.E.,
{this is the way they usually do for calculating proximity dates in any scientific methods }
Therefore we can conclude that :
"a Grammar work in Tamizh was written atleast around 6,500 B.C.E."
We can certainly say this based on the seasonal records in the afore mentioned Grammar work under study and from the principal theory in
the astronomical and mathematical works of :

Dr. B.G. Siddharth of B.M. Birla Science Centre,
Dr. S.B. Roy,
Professor Subhash Kak,
Dr. N.R. Waradpande,
Bhagwan Singh and
Dr. David Frawley

and also based on the astronomical records mentioned in
Tattiriya Samhita
Rig Veda
Yajur Veda
Tattiriya Brahmana
Atharvana Veda
and
Prof. Siva G. Bajpai PhD,
Director of Asian Studies at California State University, who co-authored the remarkable tome, A Historical Atlas of South Asia
Dr. S.B. Roy ("Chronological Framework of Indian Protohistory - The Lower Limit")
and that of
David Frawley, PhD (Gods, Sages and Kings).
-so,
thanks to these astronomical scholars for guide to place atleast a Tamizh Grammar work at 6,500 B.C.E.

ca 400 C.E.: Laws of Manu (Manu Dharma Shastras) written. Its 2,685 verses codify cosmogony, four ashramas, government, domestic affairs, caste and morality (others date at -600).

450-535: Life of Bodhidharma of South India, 28th patriarch of India's Dhyana Buddhist sect, founder of Ch'an Buddhism in China (520), known as Zen in Japan.

ca 590-671: Lifetime of Saiva saint Nayanar Tirunavukkarasu, born into a farmer family at Amur, now in South Arcot, Tamil Nadu. He writes 312 songs, totalling 3,066 Tirumurai verses. Cleaning the grounds of every temple he visits, he exemplifies truly humble service to Lord Siva. His contemporary, the child-saint Nayanar Sambandar, addresses him affectionately as Appar, "father."

ca 600: Religiously tolerant Pallava King Narasinhavarman builds China Pagoda, a Buddhist temple, at the Nagapatam port for Chinese merchants and visiting monks.

ca 600-900: Twelve Vaishnava Alvar saints of Tamil Nadu flourish, writing 4,000 songs and poems (assembled in their cannon Nalayira Divya Prabandham) praising Narayana, Rama and narrating the love of Krishna and the gopis

630-34: Chalukya Pulakeshin II becomes Lord of South India by defeating Harshavardhana, Lord of the North.

ca 650: Lifetime of Nayanar Saiva saint Tirujnana Sambandar. Born a brahmin in Tanjavur, he writes 384 songs totalling 4,158 verses that make up the first three books of Tirumurai. At 16, he disappears into the sanctum of Nallur temple, near Tiruchi, Tamil Nadu.

143 B.C.E.:King Maandaranjeral Irumborai's arrival of death marked by the Halley's comet of 143 C.E. exactly explained postion and timing of the comet "seen in the Aries constellation in the month of panguni from the first quarter of Anusham naalmeen to the first fifteen days of Krittika naalmeen, when the Moolam is falling down in the west, the Uttaram is wandering above one's head towards the western port [Thondi], the Mrigasireesam is rising fast above in the east, in the first hour after midnight"-Puranaanooru,273.

We will follow with other examples of date markers mentioned clearly in the Sangam literature in the next pages.
Tamizh scholars and Sangam experts and other enlightened Tamizh Anbar should kindly contribute to this collection.
thank you.

it was nice to partake in references of recorded Tamil history from Sangam literatures.
King Ilanjaetchenni's win [puram]over Mauryans at Paazhi,Kadambanadu, in 272 B.C.E.[dated by Emperor Cenni's conglomeration of all Tamil forces as recorded by Kharavela 113 years before 159 B.C.E.]
King Yudhishtira praised and advised not to be carried off by the Mahabharatha battle victory, and concentrate on the welfare of the people thereafter, by Gautamanaar[puram].

Friends,

The Madurai was ruled by Ahuthai and others and Pandiyars who were native of Tamilnadu, who lost their country in Flood(Island?) came and won Madurai around 325BCE, and Thalaiank KANathu Cheruvendra Pandian established Pandiyas as Major Force around 200 BCE.

Sangam Literature does not have Pandyas ruling KApadapuram or thier Tamil country lost in Flood.
MosesMohammedSolomon

Bingo there is the scientific proof for Tamils antiquity !

Tamizh Nadu is in thai and maasi[january and february];which means there had been a shift in the positions of star constellations from the time of this record in the first Tamizh grammar book (and passed on from number of generations of masters and students upto the age of writing down of Tholkappiyam nool) to the present day - the aries(aadu iyal-mesha with aswini as first monthstar) constellation had moved from Tamizh spring day -january to april now;
That is:

Spring starts always at January 14 in Tamlzh Naadu;
The source of Tholkaappiyam says Aries(Mesha) constellation was usually seen at the start of Spring--Jan 14;
Presently Aries is seen as the evening star by April 21;

This means there hadbeen a shift of 3 months which is equivalent according to Dr.Frawley's calculations to about, 8,500 years from the present AROUND 6,500 B.C.E. derived as follows:

if 3.88 months shift=>10,500 years:so, 3 months shift=8076 years;or
if 3.00 months shift=>8500 years:so, 3 months shift=8500 years; or
if 1.33 months shift=>5139 years:so, 3 months shift=11563.2 years; or
if 1.1 months shift=>4500 years:so, 3 months shift=12272.73 years; or
if 0.88 months shift=>4350 years:so, 3 months shift=14500 years;

Roughly the date of the 1st Tamizh grammar work (or perhaps copied down second or later Grammar work or Tholkaappiyam itself) was between 8076 years and 14500 years from present;which goes from 6076 B.C.E. to 12500 B.C.E.
to locate the exact date we can take the following methods

Arithmetic mean=8,500/3 *3=8,500=6,500 B.C.E.,
Geometric mean={8100+8500+11563.2+12272.73+14500}/5=54935/5=10,987 years for 3 months shift =8,987 B.C.E.
Median=[midpoint of 2 extreme entries]=from above,{ 14,500+8,100}/2=11,300 for 3 months shift=9,300 B.C.E.
Graphical mode=8,500 years=6,500 B.C.E.,
{this is the way they usually do for calculating proximity dates in any scientific methods }
Therefore we can conclude that :
"a Grammar work in Tamizh was written atleast around 6,500 B.C.E."

Friends,

I donot understand a single word of what Mahadevan anna says.

Pavanar started with Bce 2000 and ended up at BCE650, but the Majority view of Scholars is 150BCE, some important research opinions are in Tamil is Elder Thread.

MosesSolomon

Solomon anna, it is same set of astronomical calculations that date Rig (sounds like rigging)at so and so date. You seem to be flouting that date so often, did you not care to find out how then ?

Friends,

Literature dating has to be done along with lot of other details as Archeology, Visitors from Abroad notes etc.,

Astrology and Astronomical based on earlier are just Speculative, and Tholkappiyam with its Eluthu Ilakanam is perfectly verifed with Brahmi Inscriptions which match to Later Part and hence closed to 150-100BCE.

Again Datings must be done by Scholars and verify various University on Encyclopedia websites, Unbiased.

Anchaneya.

Anchaneya does the same logic applies to vedic lit also ?

Megasthanes of the 4th century bce is the earliest of foreign visitors who has left notes on India. So for anything earlier than that in Indian history we cannot rely on visitors from abroad.

On Archeology, there is more evidence for Tamil culture than for anything that is vedic, look at Grahaman hancock's website for his work on poompuhar. http://www.grahamhancock.com/underwo...world1.php?p=4

Anchaneya wrote: Tholkappiyam with its Eluthu Ilakanam is perfectly verifed with Brahmi Inscriptions which match to Later Part and hence closed to 150-100BCE.

Here you are confused between the documentation of a work and the genesis of the work. A lot of earlier dating of Tamil Lit was done with the assumption that vedic predated it. Now we know it is absolutely false.


Anchaneya wrote : Again Datings must be done by Scholars and verify various University on Encyclopedia websites,
Unbiased

well there are enough universities that date tamil culture as older than vedic, infact the AIT and the subsequent withdrawal of tamils to south is still the most accepted one by western universities, unbiased.

regarding Encyclopedia websites, compare
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu
for Tamil and the following for sanskrit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit

If you are as sensible as you claim, you should see the apparent truth.

According to Nannuul, "cha" and its cognates can occur as the first letter in any word.

According to Tolkaappiyam, it does not occur as the first letter in combination with vowels "a", "ai" and "au".

But there are many Sangam poems, in which the Tolkappiyam rule was not followed.

This is one of the many reasons to conclude that Tolkappiyam preceded all or almost all Sangam poems, according to linguistic research done by Prof. (Dr) R. Seenivasan, "Linguistics" publ. by Mullai Nilayam, 9, First Street, Bharathi Nagar, Chennai.