Tamil Thivya-Pirapantham of Tamil Vainava Saints (Aalvaars)

Author: Virarajendra

A brief study on the Tamil Thivya-Pirapantham of the Tamil Vainava Saints (Aalvaars) of Tamil Nadu

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...c/12alvars.JPG

The sacred “poems of Praise” sung on "God - as Vishnu"(God Vishnu - Thirumaal), by the Tamil Vainava Aalvaars (Saints) of Tamil Nadu - of the medieval and pre-medieval periods, have been grouped into one volume as “Naalaayira Thivya-Pirapantham” by the Tamil Vainava Adiyar the Naathamunikal.

Note: Re - "God as Vishnu"(God Vishnu) refer my Thread in this same website titled - "The Universal Truth of God Supreme"

“Thivya” in Sanskrit (“Thiru” in Tamil) means “Divine”, and Pirapantham (in Tamil) means a “poetic work”. Hence “Naalaayira Thivya-Pirapantham” means “Divine poetic works of 4000 verses”. (Verses - Paasuram)

These 4000 verses are from the twenty three divine poetic works of the twelve Vainava Aalvaars of Tamil Nadu, and are classified as follows:

The Thiruppaasurankal of the Tamil Vainava Saint
Poihaiaalvaar - Place of Birth : Kaanchipuram
Muthal Thiruvanthaathi - 100 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
No of 'Paadal (Mangala Saasanam - poetic praise) - petra' Vainava 'Thiruththalangal' (Thivya Thesangal) - 7

The Thiruppaasurankal of the Tamil Vainava Saint
Poothathaalvaar - Place of Birth : Maamallapuram
Irandaam Thiruvanthaathi - 100 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
No of 'Paadal (Mangala Saasanam - poetic praise) - petra' Vainava 'Thiruththalangal' (Thivya Thesangal) - 13

The Thiruppaasurankal of the Tamil Vainava Saint
Peiyaalvaar - Place of Birth : Mayilaapuur
Moontram Thiruvanthaathi - 100 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
No of 'Paadal (Mangala Saasanam - poetic praise) - petra' Vainava 'Thiruththalangal' (Thivya Thesangal) - 14

The Thiruppaasurankal of the Tamil Vainava Saint
Thirumalisaiaalvaar - Place of Birth : Thirumalisai
Thirusantha Viruttham - 120 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
Naanmuhan Thiruvanthaathi - 96 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
No of 'Paadal (Mangala Saasanam - poetic praise) - petra' Vainava 'Thiruththalangal' (Thivya Thesangal) - 16

Refer: Refer: http://www.projectmadurai.org/pm_ete.../pm0005_02.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfKq...yer_detailpage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLFU...layer_embedded

The Thiruppaasurankal of the Tamil Vainava Saint
Namaalvaar - Place of Birth : Thirukurukoor
Thiruviruththam - 100 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
Thiruvaasiriyam - 7 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
Periya Thiruvanthaathi - 87 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
Thiruvaaimoli - 1102 Thiruppaasurm on Thirumaal in Tamil
No of 'Paadal (Mangala Saasanam - poetic praise) - petra' Vainava 'Thiruththalangal' (Thivya Thesangal) - 35

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVQf...yer_detailpage - A Gem of Thiruvaaimoli
Courtesy: Shangu Chakra Gadha Padmam - YouTube] As the Owner of this Video have disabled same being played in other Websites, Readers are requested to view same in the YouTube Website at the following URL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=HVQfE-4Nnn4

The Thiruppaasurankal of the Tamil Vainava Saint
Mathurakaviaalvaar - Place of Birth : Thirukkoluur
Kanni Nun Siruthaambu - 11 Thiruppaasuram on Nammaalvaar in Tamil
No of 'Paadal (Mangala Saasanam - poetic praise) - petra' Vainava 'Thiruththalangal' (Thivya Thesangal) - 00

The Thiruppaasurankal of the Tamil Vainava Saint
Kulasekaraalvaar - Place of Birth : Thiruvanjikkalam (present Kodungallur of Kerala)
Perumal Thirumoli - 105 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
No of 'Paadal (Mangala Saasanam - poetic praise) - petra' Vainava 'Thiruththalangal' (Thivya Thesangal) - 7
Muhundamaalaa - Paadalkal on Thirumaal in Sanskrit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTs6...yer_detailpage

Refer: http://www.projectmadurai.org/pm_ete.../pm0005_02.pdf

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Note:
Towards the beginning of the nineth century {i.e. A.D.801} the powerful Chera king Kulasekaran {A.D.801-820} was ruling in Kudamalainadu of the Kerala (Chera) country, with his capital at Mahodayapuram. It was here the Thiruvanjikkalam existed. Mahodayapuram was also known as the Kodungallur with which name it exits even today. He was an ardent devotee of Lord Rama an incarnation of God Vishnu.

King Kulasekaran has claimed for himself the titles “Kolik-kon”, “Kudal-nayagan”, “Kongar Kon” in his "Perumal Thirumoli" confirming his authority over Koliyur (the Uraiyur of the Chola country), and Kudal (the Madurai of the Pandiya country) and also over the Kongu country, with his victory over these countries and the formation of the Second Chera (Kerala) empire during the pre-medieval period.

Subsequently he denounced the Chera throne in preferance to his "absolute dedication and worship of God Vishnu (Thirumaal) and came to be known as Kulasekara Perumaal and as Kulasekara Aalvaar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vzi...yer_detailpage The Life Story of Kulasekara Aalwar - Courtesy: Ramanujadasyai - YouTube

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The Thiruppaasurankal of the Tamil Vainava Saint
Periyaalvaar - Place of Birth : Sri Villipuththuur
Periyaalvaar Thirumoli - 461 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
Thiruppallaandu - 12 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
No of 'Paadal (Mangala Saasanam - poetic praise) - petra' Vainava 'Thiruththalangal' (Thivya Thesangal) - 20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGRL...yer_detailpage
A gem from Thiruppallaandu Coutesy: Bombay Saradha - YouTube

The Thiruppaasurankal of the Tamil Vainava Saint
Aandaal - Place of Birth : Sri Villipuththuur
Thiruppaavai - 30 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
Naachiyaar Thirumoli - 143 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
No of 'Paadal (Mangala Saasanam - poetic praise) - petra' Vainava 'Thiruththalangal' (Thivya Thesangal) - 9

Refer: Refer: http://www.projectmadurai.org/pm_ete.../pm0005_02.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tyg...yer_detailpage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLaD...layer_embedded Courtesy: Bombay Sarada

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7qOL...eature=related - A gem from Naachiyaar Thirumoli

The Thiruppaasurankal of the Tamil Vainava Saint
Thondaradipodiaalvaar - Place of Birth : Mandangkudi
Thirumaalai - 45 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
Thiruppalli Elutchi - 10 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
No of 'Paadal (Mangala Saasanam - poetic praise) - petra' Vainava 'Thiruththalangal' (Thivya Thesangal) - 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPm8...yer_detailpage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZSB...layer_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crhn5...eature=related - Gems from Thirumaalai

The Thiruppaasurankal of the Tamil Vainava Saint
Thiruppaanaalvaar - Place of Birth : Uraiyuur
Amalanathipiran - 1 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
No of 'Paadal (Mangala Saasanam - poetic praise) - petra' Vainava 'Thiruththalangal' (Thivya Thesangal) - 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCyudOTuSns - Gems of Amalanathipiran

The Thiruppaasurankal of the Tamil Vainava Saint
Thirumangaiaalvaar - Place of Birth : Kuraiyaluur
Periya Thirumoli - 1084 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
Thirukkurunththandakam - 20 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
Thirunedunththandakam - 30 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
Thiruvelukoottrirukkai - 1 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
Siriya Thirumadal - 1 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
Periya Thirumadal - 1 Thiruppaasuram on Thirumaal in Tamil
No of 'Paadal (Mangala Saasanam - poetic praise) - petra' Vainava 'Thiruththalangal' (Thivya Thesangal) - 40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQIu...yer_detailpage Courtesy: Shangu Chakra Gadha Padmam - YouTube]
As the Owner of this Video have disabled same being played in other Websites, Readers are requested to view same in the YouTube Website at the following URL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=EQIuEndoJLA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrid...yer_detailpage Courtesy: Shangu Chakra Gadha Padmam - YouTube]
As the Owner of this Video have disabled same being played in other Websites, Readers are requested to view same in the YouTube Website at the following URL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=hrid2OAENrw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uZc...yer_detailpage Courtesy: Sree Kanth Parappattu - YouTube]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqsM...layer_embedded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66OV...yer_detailpage

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While the "Naalaayira Thivya-Pirapantham" in Tamil remains a grouping of the Tamil Vainava Thiruppaasurankal - the Divine praise on God Vishnu - by the Tamil Vainava Aalvaars, the Tamil Vainava poetic work named "Guruparamparai Puranam" speaks on the life histories of these - twelve great Tamil Vainava Aalvaars.

The "Prapantha Saaram" in Tamil by Swami Vethantha Guru (Desikan) provides the count of Paasurams by each Vainava Aalvaars, and the details of their birth - places, months, and stars.
Refer:
http://www.sundarasimham.org/ebooks/PrabhandaSaaram.pdf



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This thread is to be further developed, perfected and corrections made where required by the Author

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by virarajendra

The sacred “poems of Praise” sung on God Vishnu (Thirumal), by the Tamil Vainava Aalvaars(Saints) of Tamil Nadu of the medieval, pre-medieval periods, have been grouped into one volume as “Naalaayira Thivya-Pirapantham” by the Tamil Vainava Adiyar the Naathamunikal.

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Nathamuni believed to have lived during the 9th century was born in the village Vira-narayana in the Chola kingdom.

One day, his return to his hometown after a long pilgrimage, Nathamuni met some Srivaisnavas, reciting some 10 hymns composed by Nammalvar. Realising that they were part of a much larger work, he decided to go to the holy temple city, Kumbakonam.

The Guru-parampara Prabhavam states, that Madhura-kavi alvar, the disciple of Nammalvar, manifested before Nathamuni and told him that after Nammalvar left his body, the local orthodox community fearing that the study of the Tamil hymns would be detrimental to the Vedic religion, threw them into the river Tamraparani. A page of the hymns, was picked up by a man who appreciated and recited them.

Thus only 10 hymns have been saved at this time. Nathamuni recited 12000 times the verse composed by Madhura kavi alvar in adoration of Nammalvar, who then revealed the purport of the entire work to Nathamuni. Not satisfied, Nathamuni wanted to know all the words in detailed. He was asked to approach an artisan, who provided Nathamuni with the complete text of the work, which latter came to be known as Tiruvaymozhi.

Nathamuni brought the hymns together and with the help of his two nephews, set them to music in the Vedic manner. From then on, these hymns are sung in the temples and are regarded as Dravida Veda.

Nathamuni then pass down the text to his disciple Pondari-kaksa, who then gave it to his disciple Rama Misra, Rama Misra gave it to Yamunacarya, who gave it to Gosthipurna, who later instructed Sri Ramanuja on the work.

source http://www.qmtech.com/srimatham/history/nathamuni.html

Dear Jimano repeating a section of your reply:

"....The Guru-parampara Prabhavam states, that Madhura-kavi alvar, the disciple of Nammalvar, manifested before Nathamuni and told him that after Nammalvar left his body, the local orthodox community fearing that the study of the Tamil hymns would be detrimental to the Vedic religion, threw them into the river Tamraparani......"

This has been the fate of the Tamil Saiva Thirumuraihal and Tamil Vainava Naalaayira Divya Pirapantham, due to the Sanskritisation of the Saivite & Vainava religions by the Vedic Priests from time to time in Tamil Nadu.

The Tamil Vainava Adiyar Nathamuni heard some Sri Vainavas reciting few Tamil Vainava Aalvaar's songs, and with great desire for same had to go in search of their complete Paadalhal - as they were not freely available - which have been suppressed by the Vedic Priests promoting the Sanskrit Vedic religion, as seen in the Guru-parampara Prabhavam

Likewise the Chola Emperor Rajaraja Chola - 1 (A.D.985-1014) who is said to have accidently heard some Tamil Saiva Naayanmaar's songs, with much liking for same had to go in search of the complete lot of Tamil Saiva Naayanmaar's songs, and finally found a set of their Ola leaf copies kept in an old room in the Chithambaram Temple by the temple priests, which with their negligence resulted with many of the Ola leaves having perished beyond recovery. These have been earlier suppressed by the Chithambaram temple priests in preferance to hyms of the Vedic Religion. It was the Nambiaandaar Nambi the Tamil Saiva Adiyaar, on the instructions of Rajaraja Chola - 1 recovered what was remaining, preserved and classified them into 7 - Thirumurais initially.

We can clearly see the distinct periods of the Sanskritisation of the Saivite & Vainavite religions in Tamil Nadu from history.

The first phase of Sanskritisation of the above religions in Tamil Nadu, took place during the Pallava period, who were strong followers of Vedic religion.

Then much resistance to same was shown in the 7th and 8th centuries by the Saiva Naayanmaars and the Vainava Aalvaars who in many of their songs have repeatedly mentioned - their great pride in composing songs of Divine Praise on Siva and Vishnu in Tamil - in their Thirumuraihal and Divya Pirapantham.

During the medieval Chola period this re-awakening received a further boost, but with a some resistance from the Vedic Priests. It was during this period the Thirumuraihal and the Divya Pirapantham Tamil Songs of Divine praise, were commenced to be sung in the Siva and Vishnu Temples in Tamil Nadu by Othuvaars and Araiyars.

The second phase of Sanskritisation of the Tamil Nadu Temples took place with the beginning of the Naayakkar rule, who were again great promoters of Vedic Religion.

During this period the Othuvaars & Araiyars were gradually moved out from the Temples of Tamil Nadu, with the Tamil - Thirumurai & Divya Pirapantham songs too gradually loosing their usage in these temples. The Tamil - Saivite and Vaishnavite Priests were replaced by Vedic Priests. The Temples were given Sanskrit names as against their original Tamil Names, and the presiding Deities in these temples too likewise were given Sanskrit names in place of their Tamil Names. Even some of the "place names" where these temples are situated, were also changed from Tamil to Sanskrit.

Further many Thalapuranams too were created in Sanskrit, with new "mythological" stories on the respective Thalams with Vedic background as against their Tamil - Saivite and Vainavite background, and in some cases the Tamil translations of same too came out subsequently.

The Tamil - Saivites and Vainavites of this century should make efforts to Tamilise all forms of religious worship and rituals in all Siva & Vishnu Temples in Tamil Nadu, and give the Tamil Language it's due place of pride in these Temples.

In these temples where the Tamils of Tamil Nadu go today for their Divine worship - the Temple Priests themselves should on their own come forward to conduct all forms of worship, poosai and other valipaaduhal entirely in Tamil, giving the due place to the Tamil - Thirumuraihal and Naalaayira Divya Pirapantham, complete with the re-introduction of the Othuvaar and Araiyar systems in these temples.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by virarajendra

So it is high time the Tamil - Saivites and Vainavites of this century got together to make efforts to Tamilise all Siva & Vishnu Temples in Tamil Nadu, and give the Tamil Language it's due place in the Temples - built by the Tamil kings with the assistance of the Tamil Artisons and Tamil Workers. In these temples where the Tamils of TamilNadu go today for their Divine worship - the priests should conduct all forms of Worship, Poosai and other Valipaaduhal entirely in Tamil, complete with the Othuvaar and Araiyar systems re-introduced.

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This is my subjective assessment of Srivaisnavism today in and outside Tamilnadu

In Tamilnadu

Temples

The temples are corrupt and serve the commercial interest of certain group of people, politicians, temple administrators and priests. None of these people have any interest to safeguard the tradition (saivism or vaisnavism). Also, most Sri vaisnavite temple are vaikanasa based which tends be inclined more towards the vedic tradition.

Mutts

Most Sri vaisnavite madathipathis are afraid to bring about any change, fearing a backlash from their community. There is one Sri vaisnavite madathipathi who has been ostracised by the community for converting non brahmins and his life threatened.

Community

Still maintaining its caste consciousness ( perhaps not officially but socially). For those who have settled abroad (expats), they tend to be rather exclusive.

Outside Tamilnadu

Temples

Similar to Tamilnadu, though not as corrupt and are better maintained. Most temple administrators have no knowledge of the tradition and take on a Hindu idenity which is a hotchpotch.

Mutts

Non existent - however many "new age gurus" and Christian evangelists have penetrated into this lucrative market.

Community

Non Existent brahmin community (excluding the expats)

Conclusion

Nothing much can be expected from temples. The change has to come from the people and there is a dire need of a visionary leader. Prabhupada's Iskcon model was quite successful as he worked outside the Hinduism label (i.e minus the caste system and multiple gods) whenever it suited his purpose.

Even a great reformer like Ramanuja failed because he tried to reform by working within the system. The Buddha was more successful as he worked outside the system, by rejecting the vedic culture.

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.Tamil - Recitations in Saiva and Vaishnava Temples.

.Tamil Divya-prabhandas Palm-leaf bundles thrown out in Rivers.?

Let us look back into the History and True Events apart from Historians versions.

(1) Alwars' Divya-Prabhandas were not documented in writing by any manner... including Palm-leaf form... during the early days...

..but only treated as SRUTHI.. at par with Vedas of the same Name and Status....

..so to say... as Vedas are not documented in writing... not taught through reading and writing...

..but only by "SANTHAI- method" of teaching by a Guru to Chant first... to be repeated by the students...

...true to the sense of Vedas called SRUTHI... meaning HEAR-SAY only.

So the question of throwing out the Palm-leaf bundles in the River... does not arise.

(2) Alwars Divya-Prabhandas are and were EVER highly regarded by Sri-Vaishnavites as DRAVIDA-VEDAS... at par with Sanskrit Vedas... so called Aadhi-Vedas...

...because time and again Vishnu-temples' Idol-God Themselves at various temples have declared so repeatedly...

..as also pre-announced accordingly... thousands of years back in the Sanskrit Bhagawatham... about the re-incarnation of Alwars on Earth

...and by Asareeri that the Tamil too is a DIVINE LANGUAGE... conversed by Devas during Kaliyuga.

The latest such instance was the experience of the Acharya Swami Desika... the Awathara of Thirumalai Sannidhi Bell...

...who (although a Tamilian by birth in Tamilnadu)... was objecting to treat Tamil at par with the Gospel-Language Sanskrit.

When he raised this Question to Hayagreeva at Thiruvaheendrapuram... He has well clarifed in person (Prathyaksha-Darsanam) to the Great Acharya Swami Desika...

...on the Divine-values of Tamil.. alongside the Glory of Alwars... irrespective of castes by birth.!

Thus when all the Vaishnava Acharyas... were well-convinced... there were nobody to object recitations of Divine Tamil-prabhandas emanated through the Alwars...

..and so were recited by all the Vedic-Pandits at Home and Temples... in Tamil...

...anywhere all over the World.

(3) The Saiva Acharyas wanted the similar status... in case of Saiva-Thirumurhais also...

..and so pleaded with the Tamil-kings Chera, Chozha, Pandyas...

.... to render equal status for Tamil at par with Sanskrit recitations towards the Deity.. within the Sanctum Sactorum (Garbha-graha).

Chozha Emperor supported the move and sought the approval from Saiva-Agama Pandits at Kasi.

They vehemently opposed the move highlighting the difference between Vaishnava and Saiva Agamas.

They quoted Vaishnava Agamas... which state any prayer in any language uttered in person to God in any form... which if heard and received...

...indicates His approval as SREE-SOOKTHI (Divine Prayers sanctified and SANCTIONED by God for future prayers by anybody.)

...whereas in Saiva-Agamas... there is no such specific mention...

...permiting any recitation other than Sivagama Sthothras in Sanskrit.

So it will mean an Apachaaram.. if we violate Saiva-Agamas." they said unanimously.

The Kasi-Raja (the staunch Saivite... the intimate friend of Chozha Emperors)... strongly advised him not to violate nor deviate from Saiva-Agamas...

...the authentic Code of Divine Conduct for Poojas and services in Siva Temples.

He also warned that whenever such Agamas were violated or under-treated... there have been unmanagable upsurge of floods in Ganga river... indicating the anger of Ganga-devi.

Since Chozha Emperors were already facing the worst problems of heavy flood-damages by Kaveri river frequently...

...they feared to take risk... on a Divine task.

...just because of Language issue.

Subsequently... the Tamil Saiva Mataadhipadhis... pleaded with the Chozha Emperor... for parity with Vaishnava Temple systems.

Then on the advice of an Experts-committe.. they reached a Via-media solution...

(1) Poojas within the Garbha-graham by the Priests... only according to Saiva-Agama codes...

...confining to chanting in Sanskrit only.

(2) Outside the Garbhagrahas... Odhuwars can chant the Saiva Thirumurhais.

But such a Compromise-formula... giving Over-importance to Tamil... more than other Indian Languages...

...was severely opposed by all the North Indian Kings as well as Saivite Pandits in Non-Tamil regions.

Then the Tamil Saiva matadhipathis added one subsequent line in prayer...as....

...தென்னாடு உடைய சிவனே போற்றி.!... என் நாட்டவர்க்கும் இறைவா போற்றி.!!!

[Thennaadu udaiya Sivanae Potri.!.. Yen-Naattavarkkum Irhaiva Potri.!!!]...

...which was not objected by North Indian Saivite Kings and Pandits...

And so it continues in vogue.
.

Well, looks like then that the only option is that as long as "Nathamunis" continue to make their appearances from time to time and rejuvenate the hoary legacy of the Azhwars, the marais will be preserved.

And I am sure the Lord Himself will make sure that these wonderful Truths do not fade completely out of sight. After all hasn't He declared Sambhavaami yuge yuge!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sudhaama

.
.Tamil - Recitations in Saiva and Vaishnava Temples.

.Tamil Divya-prabhandas Palm-leaf bundles thrown out in Rivers.?

Let us look back into the History and True Events apart from Historians versions.

(1) Alwars' Divya-Prabhandas were not documented in writing by any manner... including Palm-leaf form... during the early days...

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Quote:

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The Guru-parampara Prabhavam states, that Madhura-kavi alvar, the disciple of Nammalvar, manifested before Nathamuni and told him that after Nammalvar left his body, the local orthodox community fearing that the study of the Tamil hymns would be detrimental to the Vedic religion, threw them into the river Tamraparani. A page of the hymns, was picked up by a man who appreciated and recited them

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So all that is written in the "Guru Parampara Prabhavam" is untrue ?

.
.Vedas ordained to be absorbed through EARS.! Not Eyes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimano

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sudhaama

.
.Tamil - Recitations in Saiva and Vaishnava Temples.

.Tamil Divya-prabhandas Palm-leaf bundles thrown out in Rivers.?

Let us look back into the History and True Events apart from Historians versions.

(1) Alwars' Divya-Prabhandas were not documented in writing by any manner... including Palm-leaf form... during the early days...

---

Quote:

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The Guru-parampara Prabhavam states, that Madhura-kavi alvar, the disciple of Nammalvar, manifested before Nathamuni and told him that after Nammalvar left his body, the local orthodox community fearing that the study of the Tamil hymns would be detrimental to the Vedic religion, threw them into the river Tamraparani. A page of the hymns, was picked up by a man who appreciated and recited them

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So all that is written in the "Guru Parampara Prabhavam" is untrue ?

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"Guru Parampara "... the AUTHENTIC DOCUMENT...

... of the True History of Sri-Vaishnava Acharyas does not say anything contrary nor different from what I have said.

During those days of Kings era... it was categorically ordered that since Divya-Prabhandams are the TAMIL-VEDAS...

...they must be regarded at par in status of Vedas...which are treated as SRUTHIS..

..so to say... only taught by HEARSAY..and Not through Reading.

So similar to Vedas which are not documented in writing in palm-Leaves or Copper-plates or Stone-Inscriptions... or in any such visual forms...

... accessible by any means other than Hearing and Chanting

...anywhere is TOTALLY BANNED... in case of these DRAVIDA-VEDAS too.

Accordingly Palm-leaf documentations were neither allowed nor patronised during the yester-years...

..until Ramanuja's period.

After the Kings era... when disputes arose due to controversies by varied memories on the Versions...

..they found the necessity for documenting the authentic versions on Palm-Leaves... and was recorded and printed in Book forms...

...after Ramanuja's era.

Peria-Alwar says...

... என் செவி வழி என்னுள் புகுந்தாய். !!!

...(Yen Chevi Vazhi Yennulh Puhundhaay)...

..which pinpoints on not only Aaadhi-Vedas in Sanskrit...

...but also the Dravida-Vedas in Tamil...

...at par both as SRUTHIS... and so was strictly and sincerely followed...

... during the erstwhile Kings' era.
.

Dear Sudhama,

The Vedas were not documented in Ola Leaves with a specific purpose - of having it's contents selfishly guarded from others by the Vedic priests - and passed among their clan by a Guru-Shishya system of hearing, committing to memory & chanting - Suruthi.

But Thirumuraihal & Divya Pirapantham were written in Ola Leaves from the time they came into existance. There is evidence in a temple inscription to confirm that Thirumuraihal were also copied into copper plates. Even one Thevara Pathikam have been carved on the granite wall of a Siva Temple in Tamil Nadu.

Even Rajaraja Cholan found so many Ola Leaf Manuscripts of Thevara Pathikams in a room in Chithambaram Temple, many of them perished beyond recovery but collected what was remaining and arranged them to be classified in to seven Thirumuraihal.

We also note in Thirugnanasampantha Naayanaar's history in Periya Puranam where he is said to have let go the Ola Leaf Manuscripts of Thevarems at one point of a river and collected at another point.

The author of Guru-parampara Prabhavam too could not have created a false story on the Ola leaf Manuscripts of the Nammaalavar's Thiruppaasurangal - as being thrown into the river, unless there is some truth in it.

I also have not come across upto now of any positive evidence from any literary sources or from any inscriptions confirming what you have said that Divya Pirapantham (and Thrumuraihal too ???) were handed over from Guru to Shishaya by Suruthi system.

.
.History proves the Greatness of Tamil DRAVIDA-VEDAS.!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by virarajendra

Dear Sudhama,

The Vedas were not documented in Ola Leaves with a specific purpose - of having it's contents selfishly guarded from others by the Vedic priests - and passed among their clan by a Guru-Shishya system of hearing, committing to memory & chanting - Suruthi.

But Thirumuraihal & Divya Pirapantham were written in Ola Leaves from the time they came into existance. There is evidence in a temple inscription to confirm that Thirumuraihal were also copied into copper plates. Even one Thevara Pathikam have been carved on the granite wall of a Siva Temple in Tamil Nadu.

Even Rajaraja Cholan found so many Ola Leaf Manuscripts of Thevara Pathikams in a room in Chithambaram Temple, many of them perished beyond recovery but collected what was remaining and arranged them to be classified in to seven Thirumuraihal.

We also note in Thirugnanasampantha Naayanaar's history in Periya Puranam where he is said to have let go the Ola Leaf Manuscripts of Thevarems at one point of a river and collected at another point.

The author of Guru-parampara Prabhavam too could not have created a false story on the Ola leaf Manuscripts of the Nammaalavar's Thiruppaasurangal - as being thrown into the river, unless there is some truth in it.

I also have not come across upto now of any positive evidence from any literary sources or from any inscriptions confirming what you have said that Divya Pirapantham (and Thrumuraihal too ???) were handed over from Guru to Shishaya by Suruthi system.

---

Dear Virarajendra,

Only because you have personally addressed me...

..I have to duly honour... and reply.

(1) The Question of Hegemony of any one Community does not arise here...

...nor it could be possible in any era... in this respect.

...because the Hegemony needs Unity within that Group...

...whereas the Community you are referring to... are famous for Dis-unity even amongst a few in a Village resulting in constant and frequent mutual Misunderstandings and Quarrels too...

...since several centuries... right from the First Yuga, Krutha Yuga

(2) From other Communities too... there were several Sanskrit Scholars... coupled with Sound Knowledge on Vedas...

....like Kamban, Kalidasan, Auvaiyar, Valluvar, Boja-raja, Vikramaadithya and so on...

... who learnt such profound Knowledge in Sanskrit and the Vedas...

...only from Brahmins who nurtured such Great Indian Heritage.

(3) Any single unhealthy attempt by anybody of mischivous motive on Aadhi- Vedas... have been thwarted by Gods on several occasions through Alwars and Acharyas....

..example Thirumazhisai-Alwar.!!!... not from Vedic Community.

(4) I have already clarified that the Vedas are named SRUTHIs .. as declared by those Gospels...

...NOT made BY ANY HUMANS...

...unlike the other Saasthra- Texts called SMRUTHIs... the Man-made... like Manu-Smruthi.

Sruthi called Vedas have been ordained by the Gospels... to be taught through hearing by EARS ONLY...

...and Not VISUALLY... by Reading through EYES.

...especially because of its Dhatha, Udhaatha, Anudhaatha Swara Ghanam... Phonetic chanting...

(5) As I have already clarified... Saiva-Thirumurhais by Nayanmars

...although of DIVINE-VALUES... as the approved Prayers... for Saivites...

... they have not been recognised as Tamil-Vedas / THAMIZH-MARHAI ... at par with Aadhi-Vedas...

...by any God... or even by the Scholars of the same Sect... Saivites amongst Non-Tamilians...

..though they were NOT AGAINST its media of Tamil Language...

...nor opposing the Alwars Divya-Prabhandas...

...since openly declared by God Maha-Vishnu as DRAVIDA-VEDAS... or Thamizh-Marhai...

...by Asareeri as well as through the various devotees...

..and ORDERED to be chanted for Poojas within the Sanctum Sactorum... and at Homes...

...as well as in the Streets... by ARULI-CHEYAL GOSHTIs... in front of the Deities on processions...

..leaving the Sankrit Vedic Chanters to follow behind at the Tail-end of the procession...

...proving as THAMIZH MUN SELLA... as proudly extolled by Kamban.

(6) It may be true that the Saiva Thirumurhais were documented in Palm-Leaves as well as by Epigraphy... I have no comment.

But I am sure that the Alwars Divya-Prabhandas were NOT DOCUMENTED until the end of Ramanuja's era...

...but had to be documented subsequently... by Printing Books... as I have already detailed with reasons.

And it is true that the Alwars Divya-Prabhandas in Tamil were taught to any and every DEVOTEE......

... of ALL COMMUNITIES... without bias... including Women-folk... since several centuries...

...[which HEALTHY approach continues even at present]...

....but similar to learning Classical Music....

... only by the UNIQUE TEACHING system of the Guru chanting first... to be rechanted REPEATEDLY by the Disciples...

..so called SANTHAI-METHOD.
.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sudhaama

.
(b)It may be true that the Saiva Thirumurhais were documented in Palm-Leaves as well as by Epigraphy... I have no comment.

But I am sure that the Alwars Divya-Prabhandas were NOT DOCUMENTED until the end of Ramanuja's era...

...but had to be documented subsequently... by Printing Books... as I have already detailed with reasons.

And it is true that the Alwars Divya-Prabhandas in Tamil were taught to any and every DEVOTEE......

... of ALL COMMUNITIES... without bias... including Women-folk... since several centuries...

...[which HEALTHY approach continues even at present]...

....but similar to learning Classical Music....

... only by the UNIQUE TEACHING system of the Guru chanting first... to be rechanted REPEATEDLY by the Disciples...

..so called SANTHAI-METHOD

---

Sudhaamaji

Base on what authoritative source (pramanam) are you speculating that the Divya Prabandham was not documented ?

If you accept the Guru Paramapara Prabhavam as an authoritative Sri Vaisnava source; its clearly states that the Divya Prabandham was documented

Quote:

---

Sri Nathamuni went on a long pilgrimage that took him to Divya Desams like Mathura, Vrindhavan, Bengal and Puri. On his return to his home town, he met with some SriVaishnavas from the Western part of the country, who recited some 10 hymns composed by Nammazhvar. Realizing that they were part of much larger work, he decided to go to Kumbhakonam and then to the town of kuraka. This is where, the Guruparampara Prabhavam states, Nathamuni came in contact with Madhura-kavi azhwar, the disciple of Nammazhwar, and asked him if the hymns of Nammazhwar are available. Madhura kavi azhwar told him that, after composing an extensive book of hymns in Tamil and instructing him the same, Nammazhwar attained salvation. However, the local people, due to their misconception that the study of the hymns would be detrimental to the Vedic religion, threw the work into the river Tamraparani. Only one page, containing to hymns of the work, was picked up by a man who appreciated the hymns and recited them. .

---

source : http://www.srivaishnava.org/sva.htm

.
Tamil DIVYA-PRABHANDAM became SAATRU-MARHAI...

... in Temples... by SUPERSEDING Sanskrit -Vedas.!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jimano

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sudhaama

.

(b)It may be true that the Saiva Thirumurhais were documented in Palm-Leaves as well as by Epigraphy... I have no comment.

But I am sure that the Alwars Divya-Prabhandas were NOT DOCUMENTED until the end of Ramanuja's era...

...but had to be documented subsequently... by Printing Books... as I have already detailed with reasons.

And it is true that the Alwars Divya-Prabhandas in Tamil were taught to any and every DEVOTEE......

... of ALL COMMUNITIES... without bias... including Women-folk... since several centuries...

...[which HEALTHY approach continues even at present]...

....but similar to learning Classical Music....

... only by the UNIQUE TEACHING system of the Guru chanting first... to be rechanted REPEATEDLY by the Disciples...

..so called SANTHAI-METHOD

---

Sudhaamaji

Base on what authoritative source (pramanam) are you speculating that the Divya Prabandham was not documented ?

If you accept the Guru Paramapara Prabhavam as an authoritative Sri Vaisnava source; its clearly states that the Divya Prabandham was documented

Quote:

---

Sri Nathamuni went on a long pilgrimage that took him to Divya Desams like Mathura, Vrindhavan, Bengal and Puri. On his return to his home town, he met with some SriVaishnavas from the Western part of the country, who recited some 10 hymns composed by Nammazhvar. Realizing that they were part of much larger work, he decided to go to Kumbhakonam and then to the town of kuraka. This is where, the Guruparampara Prabhavam states, Nathamuni came in contact with Madhura-kavi azhwar, the disciple of Nammazhwar, and asked him if the hymns of Nammazhwar are available. Madhura kavi azhwar told him that, after composing an extensive book of hymns in Tamil and instructing him the same, Nammazhwar attained salvation. However, the local people, due to their misconception that the study of the hymns would be detrimental to the Vedic religion, threw the work into the river Tamraparani. Only one page, containing to hymns of the work, was picked up by a man who appreciated the hymns and recited them. .

---

source : http://www.srivaishnava.org/sva.htm

---

Dear "Jimano",

Your Question needs a Detailed reply... justifying in several pages...

..which I will do... when my Time permits.

For the present.. I render a Brief-Clarification.

(1) Divya-Prabhandas were taught strictly by SANTHAI METHOD.. of Hear-say... not by Reading...

..whereas some Youngsters while going out either on pilgrimage or professional tour or change of place for occupation...

...had recorded the same in Palm-leaf document... purely as a PRIVATE-NEED... just for Reference and Verifications...

...but confining to that Family only... without sharing with Others.

Such of those Family-documents were thrown away in Rivers FORCIBLY BY ANTAGONISTS...

..by which sort of impediments... the Divya-Prabhandas were Not lost to the Society.

(2) Earlier Acharya Nathamuni did not know at all... that there existed One Tamil-Vedas... named Divya-Prabhandam.

While he visited Kumbakonam... he overheard two Devotees from Thirunarayanapuram... recited the One Padhikam on Aaraavamudan...

...which ended with words... [similar to all other Thiruvaaymozhi Padhikas]...

...as AAYIRATHTHULH IPPATHTHUM...

...which worked as the MAGIC-SPARK... to redeem the whole 4000 verses of Divya-Prabhandas.

(3) And One more INTERESTING Information.!...

Prior to Acharya Nathamuni... these Prabhandas were not chanted in Temples...

... daily as SAATRU-MARHAI...

...which NOVEL-PRACTICE... superseding the importance to Adhi-Vedas...

...was NEWLY INTRODUCED by Nathamuni on the Divine-Commandments of Nammalwar to him...

..further approved by Lord Ranganatha at Srirangam.

Many people do not know this Truth... On which I will elaborate later.

(4) Then why in some of the presently printed books... Guru-Parampara is a different story.?

You can find there are several stories far differing and countering each other...

...since based on Hear-says only...

...NOT CORROBORATING with the HISTORY of the Land... linked with the Kings.

Example.?

Our famous Velukudi Krishnan, the Well-Knowledged Upanyasaka cum Great Scholar of the present days...

... on the Subject of Divya-Prabhandas...

...says regarding the Top-most Turning point of Guruparampara History...

...on How and Why... Bhagawad Ramanuja had to leave Srirangam and shift to Mael-nadu (So called the present Karnataka)...

"Chozha Minister's call to Ramanuja was communicated to him.. while he was taking the Morning- bath at Kaveri River.

Immediately his Disciple Kooraththaazhwaan TOOK PERMISSION from his Acharya...

... to MIS-PERSONIFY Ramanuja... in the Royal-Court...

...and on the approval of the Guru...for such UNLAWFUL ACT...

..Kooraththaazhwaan proceeded to Chozha Raja.!!!... ???"

Can it be CORRECT .?... Or CONVINCING.?...

...Or CORROBORATIVE with the Well-defined Noble Characters alongside the Unique Ideals of the Great Guru Ramanuja ...

...and the Exemplary Sishya Koorathaazhwaan.?

Is it NOT A GRAVE INSULT...and DENIGRATION to both those Great Emulative Acharya and an Exemplary Sishya.?

There are several such contradictory stories on this part of Ramanuja's Life History...

...perplexing as also UNDIGESTIBLE for we the Followers and Commoners.

The Truth was... Ramanuja did not know at all... on the VOLUNTARY SELF-SACRIFICE of his ardent Disciple.. Koorathu Azhwaan...

..since he was totally INCOGNIZANT of the developments.. being away from the Scene...

The Call-Message was COMMUNICATED to Ramanuja.. only after the Aazhwwan left the Matam...

...in the self-assigned False-robe of his Acharya.!

Koorathaalvaan FALSELY declared... "I am Ramanuja":... and proceeded to argue with the Saivite Scholars... in the Royal court.

.On his refusal to sign as commanded by the Chozha King...

...he was innocently punished to be made BLIND.

(5) Which one is the AUTHENTIC FORM OF GURU-PARAMPARA.?..

The PALM-LEAVED DOCUMENTS... prepared during the POST RAMANUJA ERA...

...subsequently got printed and preserved with the Templle-Archives of Srirangam, Thirupathi and Kancheepuram...

..which only used to be produced in the Courts of Law... to clarify on subsequent Legal-Disputes... amongst the Devotees.

And such Documents ONLY have been RECOGNISED by all the sections of the Society as the Commonly acceptable one...

...as well as the AUTHENTIC... by the Governments too.!

Which were so documented after Ramanuja's era,...

..since PROVED on its VERACITY as well as UNDISPUTABLE in all respects.

Besides, One more RELIABLE INFORMATION is... the Kaelvi-Gjanam.. by Heirarchic Hear-say...

...emanating from the Forefathers, Father -mother, Family members... of the 74 Simhaasanaadhipathis... established by Ramanuja...

..as well as the Ashta-dik-Gajas (Eight Sub- Acharyas) initiated by Manavala-Mamuni...

...the True Life-Histories of all the Poorva-Acharyas... are quite clear, elaborate, convincing and justifiable...

...and are also CORROBORATIVE with one another...

...even though such present Source-outlets... are quite far-off... and far alien apart... in all respects.

Such True Life-Stories clarify all our doubts and tally radically with the Conceptual- Spirit of Divya-Prabhandam.

Some of the renowned Sri-Vaishnava Acharyas and Vidwans like Vanamamalai Jeeyar Swami, 44th Ahobhilam Jeeyar Swami (who constructed Srirangam Rajagopuram), P.B.Annangarachariar Swami.. Thirukkallam Narasimhachariar, Mukkur Lakshmi-Narasimhachariar...

...as well as such other Authentic Scholars and Pandits...

..have PROPOGATED the Real form of the Alwar- Acharyas' Life-Histories...

...which I have personally heard during their Kalakshepas (Discourses) and Upanyasams (Lectures) ...

...analytical discussions with the Congregations of high Scholars... etc..

...keenly, repeatedly and elaborately...several times, for adequately Long- period of more than 40 years...

..apart from the series of rich Books and Journals...

..which are MORE RELIABLE than some of the latest... mutually contradictory and perplexive printed books...

..in the name of Guruparampara Prabhavam.

In brief.. the DRAVIDA-VEDAS...so called Divya-Prabhandam has confronted with all sorts of Turmoils and Challenges...

...but still surviving because of Timely Interventions by God's Grace.!!!
.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sudhaama

.
(1) Divya-Prabhandas were taught strictly by SANTHAI METHOD.. of Hear-say... not by Reading...

---

Sudhaamaji

That was the tradition of learning prevailing then, but it didnt restrict learning from documented text.

The purpose of the Alvars' appearance was to propagate the bhakti/surrender path of God realisation. This path was open to all, regardless of race/caste/religious affiliations etc. and not restricted or made accessible to an exclusive few (as opposed to the vedic tradition)

As such they (especially Namalvar) and their disciples would not have imposed any form of impediments in its study or propagation.

Later, the acaryas gave it the vedic recognition and incorporated it in the temple worship e.g sattumurais.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sudhaama

[b]Prior to Acharya Nathamuni... these Prabhandas were not chanted in Temples...

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sudhaama

.(4) Then why in some of the presently printed books... Guru-Parampara is a different story.?

You can find there are several stories far differing and countering each other...

...since based on Hear-says only...

...NOT CORROBORATING with the HISTORY of the Land... linked with the Kings.

Example.?

Our famous Velukudi Krishnan, the Well-Knowledged Upanyasaka cum Great Scholar of the present days...

... on the Subject of Divya-Prabhandas...

...says regarding the Top-most Turning point of Guruparampara History...

...on How and Why... Bhagawad Ramanuja had to leave Srirangam and shift to Mael-nadu (So called the present Karnataka)...

"Chozha Minister's call to Ramanuja was communicated to him.. while he was taking the Morning- bath at Kaveri River.

Immediately his Disciple Kooraththaazhwaan TOOK PERMISSION from his Acharya...

... to MIS-PERSONIFY Ramanuja... in the Royal-Court...

...and on the approval of the Guru...for such UNLAWFUL ACT...

..Kooraththaazhwaan proceeded to Chozha Raja.!!!... ???"

Can it be CORRECT .?... Or CONVINCING.?...

...Or CORROBORATIVE with the Well-defined Noble Characters alongside the Unique Ideals of the Great Guru Ramanuja ...

...and the Exemplary Sishya Koorathaazhwaan.?

Is it NOT A GRAVE INSULT...and DENIGRATION to both those Great Emulative Acharya and an Exemplary Sishya.?

There are several such contradictory stories on this part of Ramanuja's Life History...

...perplexing as also UNDIGESTIBLE for we the Followers and Commoners.

The Truth was... Ramanuja did not know at all... on the VOLUNTARY SELF-SACRIFICE of his ardent Disciple.. Koorathu Azhwaan...

..since he was totally INCOGNIZANT of the developments.. being away from the Scene...

The Call-Message was COMMUNICATED to Ramanuja.. only after the Aazhwwan left the Matam...

...in the self-assigned False-robe of his Acharya.!

Koorathaalvaan FALSELY declared... "I am Ramanuja":... and proceeded to argue with the Saivite Scholars... in the Royal court.

.On his refusal to sign as commanded by the Chozha King...

...he was innocently punished to be made BLIND.

(5) Which one is the AUTHENTIC FORM OF GURU-PARAMPARA.?..

The PALM-LEAVED DOCUMENTS... prepared during the POST RAMANUJA ERA...

...subsequently got printed and preserved with the Templle-Archives of Srirangam, Thirupathi and Kancheepuram...

..which only used to be produced in the Courts of Law... to clarify on subsequent Legal-Disputes... amongst the Devotees.

And such Documents ONLY have been RECOGNISED by all the sections of the Society as the Commonly acceptable one...

...as well as the AUTHENTIC... by the Governments too.!

Which were so documented after Ramanuja's era,...

..since PROVED on its VERACITY as well as UNDISPUTABLE in all respects.

Besides, One more RELIABLE INFORMATION is... the Kaelvi-Gjanam.. by Heirarchic Hear-say...

...emanating from the Forefathers, Father -mother, Family members... of the 74 Simhaasanaadhipathis... established by Ramanuja...

..as well as the Ashta-dik-Gajas (Eight Sub- Acharyas) initiated by Manavala-Mamuni...

...the True Life-Histories of all the Poorva-Acharyas... are quite clear, elaborate, convincing and justifiable...

...and are also CORROBORATIVE with one another...

...even though such present Source-outlets... are quite far-off... and far alien apart... in all respects.

Such True Life-Stories clarify all our doubts and tally radically with the Conceptual- Spirit of Divya-Prabhandam.

Some of the renowned Sri-Vaishnava Acharyas and Vidwans like Vanamamalai Jeeyar Swami, 44th Ahobhilam Jeeyar Swami (who constructed Srirangam Rajagopuram), P.B.Annangarachariar Swami.. Thirukkallam Narasimhachariar, Mukkur Lakshmi-Narasimhachariar...

...as well as such other Authentic Scholars and Pandits...

..have PROPOGATED the Real form of the Alwar- Acharyas' Life-Histories...

...which I have personally heard during their Kalakshepas (Discourses) and Upanyasams (Lectures) ...

...analytical discussions with the Congregations of high Scholars... etc..

...keenly, repeatedly and elaborately...several times, for adequately Long- period of more than 40 years...

..apart from the series of rich Books and Journals...

..which are MORE RELIABLE than some of the latest... mutually contradictory and perplexive printed books...

..in the name of Guruparampara Prabhavam..

---

Authentic scholars and pundits must be able to reconcile the inconsistencies (contradictions etc) in the Guru Parampara Prabhavam.

.
.
.Great Values of Divya-Prabandas, DRAVIDA-VEDAS.!!!
.
Dear "Jimano",

You are doing a Good-job... by your active and WISE-PARTCIPATIONS in our Hub...

My Best Wishes to You...

Please Continue.

Since you have specifically addressed me... I have to honour your call and reply.

Otherwise I am NOT INTERESTED to enter into unnecessary and UNDUE Controversies...

..especially because...

(1) I am a PHILOSOPHICAL-MINDED person of UNIVERSAL-SOCIAL SPIRIT...

...imbued with the Broad- Outlook of One MOSAIC GLOBAL-MANKIND FAMILY... under the Sky... the One Common Roof for all...

... Conforming to the EXCEPTIONALLY UNIQUE Message of Alwars Divya-Prabhandas..

So I duly honour one and all the Divergent Faiths and Beliefs... of my Global- Brethren... i

...irrespective of mutual disparities and contradictions.

Consequently I do not want to hurt anybody's personal feelings on individual Faiths...

...even if I am sure that I am Correct as well as my statement can be proved on its Veracity....

Yes.. Each and Everyone of my Friends and Brethren Globally... including Strangers... I respect duly ..

...as well as value the diversity of various Faiths at par... although each path is applicable to the respective alien only

Consequently even if the other person is "Wrong" in any statement... I never comment as..."YOU ARE WRONG...

...Nor as... "My Faith/ Belief is better than yours"...

..but only interested to put forth my Knowledge... in a subtle manner...

...such that others concerned can ADJUDGE... of his/her own accord... which is Wrong and What is Correct...

...and Which is the Best one... as applicable to him / her.

(2) The most important principle is... I NEVER INDULGE IN ARGUMENTS...

..because that is the underlying Spirit of the Rudimentary Vedic- Gospel...

...confirmed by Alwars Divya-Prabhandas...

...as specifically conveyed to Mankind...

..alongside proved and implemented in Practical Life too... by the Connoissaer Bhagawad Ramanuja... the Social- Emancipator-Leader...

..that ARGUMENTS amongst the Disciples or the Commoners TAKE US NOWHERE...

...but only towards unnecessary and avoidable Man-made Sicknesses like...

...Mutual Animosity, Jealousy, Hatred, Anger, Enmity and such other Animal-Tendencies...

..the SUICIDAL-PROPENSITIES... far incompataible and highly improper for the so called Super-birth...

...the Wisest Mankind... endowed with the rare SUPPLEMENTARY STRENGTH by Soul-might too.

But Discussions of mutual Quest and Exchange of Knowledge... No doubt help in bringing out the Facts and Veracity of worthy Message....

...complying with the Healthy purpose and OPTIMISTIC MOTTO of this Global-Forum.

So in future... whenever you differ with me...

...please don't drag me into Arguments... or Controversies...

...but try to find out the Truth from elsewhere and put forth here...

...on which I am prepared to exchange our healthy thoughts... and learn from you and others...

...true to the Factual- worth...

And I am anxious to correct myself... on my erstwhile stand... if wrong or needs revision or improvement..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jimano

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sudhaama

.
(1) Divya-Prabhandas were taught strictly by SANTHAI METHOD.. of Hear-say... not by Reading...

---

That was the tradition of learning prevailing then, but it didnt restrict learning from documented text.

The purpose of the Alvars' appearance was to propagate the bhakti/surrender path of God realisation. This path was open to all, regardless of race/caste/religious affiliations etc. and not restricted or made accessible to an exclusive few (as opposed to the vedic tradition)

As such they (especially Namalvar) and their disciples would not have imposed any form of impediments in its study or propagation.

Later, the acaryas gave it the vedic recognition and incorporated it in the temple worship e.g sattumurais.

---

No doubt... unlike Vedas.. the Tamil Divya-Prabhandas were and are open to one and all of the Vedic-dharma Devotees...

..irrespective of Caste, Status, Profession / Occupation... and the like man-made segments of the wide Society....

..but AT PAR with the Status and Values of Vedas..

How and Where they are treated different or similar.?

Same and Equal Values.

(a) Both are considered as Vedas.. of EQUAL-VALUES and Qualified to be recited before the Vishnu-Deities in and out of Garba-Grahas (Sanctum Sanctorum)

(b) Both are to be treated as SRUTHIS only. So to say... must be taught through EARS... by Hearsay only...

...and NOT VISUALLY through Eyes, by Reading or Writing.

Peria-Alwar says... Chevi vazni yennulh puhundhaay...

...means this sense of Santhai.. by Hearsay only.

(c) Before the Deities during Saatru-marhai... the Prabhandas must be recited only by chorus by one group of devotees... comprised of minimum Four-members...

...similar to Vedic recitation Code of practice.

(d) If at all any devotee needs a Reference in writing... for verification... at an exceptional circumstance and situations...

...it may be recorded and so utlized for PERSONAL USE ONLY... but must Not be shared with others.

(d) Similar to Four Vedas... this Arulhi-cheyal Vedas too are divided into Four parts...

..and Thiruvaaymozhi must be treated at par with Sama-Veda.... the Supreme Gospel... out of all the Vedas... by Sense and Values

So while all other parts of Prabhandas can be recited out of the Temples too in the Streets... during Veedhi-purappaadu... by Walking or Standing along with the Deity...

...Thiruvaaymozhi should be recited only by sitting beneath a Roof... similar to the Code applicable for Sama-Veda.

Differences:---

(a) Orthodoxy is quite Vital for Vedic-Chanting... since Vedic-values are strictly LINKED WITH SOULS... basically

So only such of those adopting Orthodoxy wearing Poonool... conducting Sandhya-vandanas... etc are qualified to chant Vedas. ..

...while this is not the matter of domination or pressure from anyone Comunity...

...but the Stipulatory Order of Sasthras.

But in case of Alwars Prabhandas... ORTHODOXY IS IMMATERIAL... Nor a PRE-QUALIFICATION... thus open to all.

Soul-advancement and Emancipation has to be developed by the Devotee... internally and VOLUNTARILY ... by Self-Endeavour

...through Self-Surrender to the Supreme God-Soul.. Paramaathama.

(b) Prabhanda chanting Groups... are called ALWAR-GOSHTI... and so in between every pair of reciters... One person space must be left vacant...

...to make space for Alwars, Acharyas and other Adiyars to join with the Chanting-team... INVISIBLY.

(c) During Veedhi-purappaadu in the streets... Prabhanda-Group must move in Front... leading the Deity...

...leaving the Sanskrit Vedic- chanters Team to follow behind.

(d) Vedas are to be chanted in phonetic-form of Ghana-swaras... made up of... Dhaaththam, Udhaaththam, Anu-dhaaththam etc... the up and down tonal expressions mixed with words...

...whereas the Prabhandas have only one uniform phonetic expressions without any Ghana-swaras.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sudhaama

Prior to Acharya Nathamuni... these Prabhandas were not chanted in Temples...

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sudhaama

.(4) Then why in some of the presently printed books... Guru-Parampara is a different story.?

You can find there are several stories far differing and countering each other...

...since based on Hear-says only...

...NOT CORROBORATING with the HISTORY of the Land... linked with the Kings.

Example.?

Our famous Velukudi Krishnan, the Well-Knowledged Upanyasaka cum Great Scholar of the present days...

... on the Subject of Divya-Prabhandas...

...says regarding the Top-most Turning point of Guruparampara History...

...on How and Why... Bhagawad Ramanuja had to leave Srirangam and shift to Mael-nadu (So called the present Karnataka)...

"Chozha Minister's call to Ramanuja was communicated to him.. while he was taking the Morning- bath at Kaveri River.

Immediately his Disciple Kooraththaazhwaan TOOK PERMISSION from his Acharya...

... to MIS-PERSONIFY Ramanuja... in the Royal-Court...

...and on the approval of the Guru...for such UNLAWFUL ACT...

..Kooraththaazhwaan proceeded to Chozha Raja.!!!... ???"

Can it be CORRECT .?... Or CONVINCING.?...

...Or CORROBORATIVE with the Well-defined Noble Characters alongside the Unique Ideals of the Great Guru Ramanuja ...

...and the Exemplary Sishya Koorathaazhwaan.?

Is it NOT A GRAVE INSULT...and DENIGRATION to both those Great Emulative Acharya and an Exemplary Sishya.?

There are several such contradictory stories on this part of Ramanuja's Life History...

...perplexing as also UNDIGESTIBLE for we the Followers and Commoners....

---

In no way lesser than anybody else... I have high regard, great respect for Sri U. Vae. Velukkudi Krishnan... the famous contemporary Scholar on this subject....

..whose Lectures and Discourses in general... I cherish and value a lot now-a-days.

So let not anybody mistake me... that I am under-rating that high Scholar on the subject.

I know his Father Sri U.Vae. Velukkudi Varadachariar swami, the Great Scholar of those days... with whom I have moved closely... as well as heard lot of Lectures and Discourses.

My earlier statement regarding Velukkudi Krishnan's confusive narration on some parts of Guru-parampara History...

...far differing from other scholars...

...I only mean the pitiable outcome... caused by the subsequent editions of several Printed books...

...each narrating in their own way... different, DISTORTED, contradictory and controversial stories...

...nor convincing for even the Commonman...

...since un- matching with the values and Basic-propensities of the respective Characters...

..as also Non-corroborative in several respects....

...and are capable of MISLEADING... EVEN THE SCHOLARS.!.?

I hope... My Article Serial in Tamil... under our monthly Hub-Magazine...

..published since the past more than Two and half years...

...clarifies all such doubts and nullifies confusions... true to its Great Values and Veracity of the subject..

- Thamizh-Marhai Thiruvaaymozhi-30 - By Sudhaama
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- தமிழ்-மறை திருவாய்மொழி - 30 . (சுதாமா)

http://www.mayyam.com/unicode/cgi-bi...oct08/?t=12093

Comments are Welcome.
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.Alwars.. SAINTS.?

This Thread-title needs CORRECTION.

Most of the Saiva-Nayanmars were SAINTS...

..whereas NONE amongst the Alwars were SAINTS.!!!

Indeed some of the Alwars lead the Bachelor Life all through.. as UNMARRIED...

..but NOT SAINTS at all... at any part of their Life...even anyone of them.!

In fact... one of the Azhwars.. named THONDAR-ADIPPODI AZHWAR... wanted to lead his Life as Saint only all along...

..rather did not like to get married at all and so live as a Grihastha by Married-Life.

But Lord Ranganata did not APPROVE such an IMPROPER AND VOID WISH of His Devotee...

...whom He wanted to ENJOY LIFE... in TOTALITY...

...by concurrently leading a WORTHY AND MEANINGFUL LIFE too...

..Conforming to the Code of HUMAN-VALUES.!

So the God played a FORCEFUL DRAMA on him... by which his Married Life was THRUST upon that Bachelor-Devotee...

..radically engrossed in God's Devotion only... backed by CELIBACY / Brahmacharyam.

Yes. Azhwars do not preach nor advocate Brahmacharyam as the FITTEST MEANS and Purpose of Human-birth.

Even Lord Siva did not accept Thiruneelakanta- Nayanmar's wish to continue in Celebacy...

..by adopting Brahmacharyam concurrently... by living with his legitimate Wife....

..but FORCED HIM .. by means ofa Drama and ultimately advised him to resume Married Life...

..with a sense of purpose of Human-birth... intended as the LAST BIRTH...

..as the MEANS FOR SALVATION...

...ensuring LIBERATION FROM REBIRTHS anymore.!

Yes. Lord Ranganatha too advised the same Gospel to Humanity...

..through His Sacred Words to Thondar-Adippodi azhwar...

..that the Sampoorna Life.. can be attained only by MARRIED LIFE also...

..which is the MOST IMPORTANT STAGE towards COLLECTIVE-ADVANCEMENT...

..by means of GIVING / RENDERING Service To and From others...

SERVING, RECEIVING and SHARING Life-Benefits with Others...

...by means of one's own Family with the Society on the whole.

Even in the case of the Great Sankaracharya, the Incarnation of Lord Siva...

..although with high SELFLESS MOTIVE... he wanted to spend His Life all trough in SAINTLY LIFE only..

..Saraswathi-Devi purposively interrvened and played a HIHLY MEANINGFUL DRAMA...

..ensuring dual-purpose of imparting TOTALITY OF KNOWLEDGE OF LIFE...

..without any exception... ESPECIALLY THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of earthly Life...

...Grahasthasrama (Married Life) the Divine order for any Living-being.

Yes. The Truth we have to remember...

The Whole Earthly Life... exists, thrives and advances only by the Human-beings practicing Grihasthasrama (Married Life stage).

Rather amongst the Four Stages of Human-Life...

(1) Brahmacharyam (Boy-hood followed by Bachelor-status) :---... Starting Stage of Humanity...

... by getting shaped by Parents and Teachers... as the LEARNER leading a Bachelor life.

(2)GRIHASTHAM :--- Earning by means of Profession / Occupation .. shaping and CONDUCTING his own Family...

...SUPPORTING all others in the Society as well...

...rather such of those adopting three other stages too... of Human-Life.

(3) Vana-prastham :-- Retired Life... Living as the Dependant on the Leadership of his Children...

..sharing their Life as the EXPERIENCED COUNSELLOR.

(4) Mumukshu (Gjani) :--- Seeker of Moksha (Liberation from Rebirths)

Yes. All those under three other stages, e.g. Brahmachari, Vanaprastha and Mumukshu / Sanyasi...

..are the DEPENDANTS on the Grihasthas only... for their mundane Life-means.!

Hence all along the Azhwars DIVINE-GOSPELS... every Utterance of Preaching is based on Married-Life Spirit...

..including the spirit of Romance.!
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None amongst Twelve Azhwars was SAINT.!

One Azhwar's attempt towards Saint-hood was Thwarted by God.!

--and FORCED to lead a MARRIED LIFE... and continue as Azhwar.!


Indeed Six Azhwars were UN-MARRIED / ASCETICS... but NOT SAINTS.

Azhwars "Thamizh-Marhai" encourages GRIHASTHA Spirit amongst Mankind..

..even towards God.!!!


Yes. For every Man... the early days Life by Childhood, Student, Retired Life... alongwith others of Society at large...

....plus the rest of the whole World ..INCLUDING SAINTS--- are ABLE TO EXIST...

...as also thrive by means of DEPENDANCE on the Patronage by the GRIHASTHAS (Married Life Stage).... ONLY..!

...because GRIHASTHAS are the REAL BREAD-WINNERS for the entire Mankind...

....plus the conduct of the Earthly lives of all... too .!

Even amongst the Sri-Vaishnava Acharyas....

....Majority were / are NON-SAINTS... i.e.. GRIHASTHAS.!!!

Azhwars do not preach Saint-hood.!!!... implying SELF-SACRIFICE.!

....but UNIVERSAL-LOVE towards ALL... in a HOMELY SPIRIT of Family-bonds.!

..including God... as part of Ones own Family.....

...as well as for ONE GLOBAL HUMAN-FAMILY!!!
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....as the PROTECTOR.... GAURD / GOD.!

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Dear Sudhama,

I think the word you were looking for is not "saint"but "monk or renunciant"

Even the dictionary meaning of "saint"is any person who lives his life filled with holiness.

saint = sadhu in sanskrit
- noun: a person of great holiness, virtue, or benevolence.

monk = sanyasi in sanskrit
- noun: a man who is a member of a monastic order




Anyone can be a saint, one who is filled with saintly virtues is a saint, be a brahmachari, grihasta, vanaprastha or sanyasi. But I think you were wanting to refer to a sanyasi, and instead used the word Saint.

all the azhwars were saints. There is no doubt about this. Their saintly characteristics, and virtues made them saints or sadhus.

.


Azhwars were MORE THAN.... SAINTS.!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Badri

Dear Sudhama,

I think the word you were looking for is not "saint"but "monk or renunciant"

Even the dictionary meaning of "saint"is any person who lives his life filled with holiness.

saint = sadhu in sanskrit
- noun: a person of great holiness, virtue, or benevolence.

monk = sanyasi in sanskrit
- noun: a man who is a member of a monastic order

Anyone can be a saint, one who is filled with saintly virtues is a saint, be a brahmachari, grihasta, vanaprastha or sanyasi. But I think you were wanting to refer to a sanyasi, and instead used the word Saint.

all the azhwars were saints. There is no doubt about this. Their saintly characteristics, and virtues made them saints or sadhus.

---

Thanks my dear Badri,

The Word SAINT... conventionally and practically in the common wordly usage... means SANYASI...

....the one who has RENUNCIATED the mundane pleasures... coupled with Earthly Bondage..

...while different Dictionaries of the PRESENT DAYS... render varied meanings. Why.?

After the Christianity got divided as Protestant and Catholics... the original meaning of this Word SAINT has been changed... suiting to the Christian convenience.

Yes. On the advent of Mr Martin Luther the Founder of Protestant Division within Christianity...

the then Catholic Fathers had to confront the volley of protests on the methodology of application of Bible sense on the ground... and defend the Sanctity of Catholic system of Christianity.

And so the Catholic Fathers felt the dire necessity to make the sense of the Word SAINT ...more RICHER and WEIGHTY of high Values...

...deserving HIGHEST REVERENCE and UNQUESTIONABLE AUTHORITY for the Disciples....

....and to eulogize their Cathollc Religious Fathers... just by means of One Word SAINT.

So they started re-naming the Churches Monuments and Roads with a Prefix of the word SAINT... such as "Saint Paul Church... Saint Andrews Road and the like...

...to assert the REVISED sense of HIGHEST REVERANCE by the Word.....

...until then meant as just a SANYASI or Mendicant.... who has resorted to RENUNCIATION.

However for Non-christians... it continues as the UNALTERED Common usage of all...

...confined to its Original meaning as RENUNCIATED personage.

Rather for the Commoners, Non-Christians... this Word SAINT.. is just a simple word to mean SANYASI only... and NOT MORE.

If we closely observe the comparative meanings of the allied words like SAINT , SEER, MONK.... we can find most part of their descriptrions are OVERLAPPING each other.... and ALMOST ALIKE.

...without any clear cut specific WELL-DEFINED sense of the allied words... adequately DISCERNING from the word SAINT.

There exists no specific word in the present days dictionary... to EXACTLY CONVEY the True sense of the Word SANYASI...as meant by all the Indian Languages.

This Reality alone must be enough to convince us... on the manipulation during the intermediary era....

..to manage the TURMOIL OF THE TIME.

In all the Hindu scriptures and Biographies of our Great Seers Acharyas... like Sankaracharya, Ramanujacharya, Krishna Chaithanya, Swami Vivekananda ...and so on...

....translated into English... we find the word SAINT only... to exclusively mean the SANYASI... in true sense of RENUNCIATION only.

That is why, even while the Hindus write or speak in English... in reverence of the Great Seers,,, it is not attributed as SAINT Sankaracharya.... SAINT Ramakrishna... SAINT Raghavendra swami... and the like.

Because for Non-Catholics... this Word SAINT is not at all glorious... as is deemed by the Catholic Christians.

There were hundreds of Saint disciples of the Acharya Ramanuja, residing with Him... but everyone of them was not regarded as the highly emancipated holy souls... close to God...

..as the present day dictionary terminologies ascribe.... as the meaning of the word SAINT.

...but still they were and are called as SAINTS... to mean ONLY THE RENUNCIATION...

...and NOT MORE.... NOR BEYOND.... to mean their Holy Soul status... nor their proximity to Supreme soul God.

For denoting higher Standard Human- values... by Non-Christians. some more words were and are required...

...other than just an Elementary word... SAINT.

Azhwars were MORE THAN SAINTS...

They were the Great Souls / SEERS... QUITE PROXIMATE TO GOD ....

....who could have the God-Vision... plus conversation too.

...and recite the Sacred TAMIL VEDA... as received from God in person
..
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Dear NOV -

Thanking you very much for adding much value to my thread. It would have been preferable if it has been added at the beginning or the end of my Thread text as you have done in my Thread on Thaali.

Further your three pictures on my Thread on Sarees only one is now showing, while other two doesnot come out when we open the thread. If you have also some beautiful photos on young girls with Paavadai, Thaavani, with Poo, Pottu, and long Koonthal Elderly Ladies too dressed in traditional Sarees of Tamil Nadu with Jewelleries - add same to my Thread on Saree to impress in the mind of our Tamil Ladies & Girls the beauty of our traditional dresses.

I very very sincerely thank you for your assistance in this connection as I feel that threads with good illustration Photo, Website Videos, does help us to drive the subject matter of our Threads positively into the minds of the Readers.

By the way as you may see most of my recent Threads are added with illustrative YouTube Video Links. But only unfortunate part is when the Readers follow the Link and go to the Website the YouTubes take a long time and with frequent Buffering Time which may irritate the Readers and they will loose their patience.

So "I very kindly request" you if possible and if you are aware of a method of how to make the Readers see the YouTube Videos smoothly and continuosly without interuptions for frequent Buffering so that all can benefit from same.

Mikka Nantri

Virarajendra

Dear NOV,

Thanking you very very much for adding the Photos of Alwars at the begining of my Thread. It adds more valee to my Thread.

Thank you very very much
Anbudan

Virarajendra

Done Virarajendra. :D
Youtube buffering is caused by speed. Optimum viewing is in highspeed broadband.

NOV, thanks for the photo. Romba naaLaa thEdittu irundhen!

Sathya, I have a very nice framed one in my altar. Bought in Tirupathi or Srirangam. :think:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NOV

Sathya, I have a very nice framed one in my altar. Bought in Tirupathi or Srirangam. :think:

---

mmm. Will ask my periappa to get one when he visits Srirangam next time (he visits frequently)

[tscii]

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Alwars DHIVYA-PRABHANDHAM, a Gospel, TAMIL-VEDA.?


--- named in Tamil as THAMIZH-MARHAI. ? How & Why.?


So called Saivam & Vaishnavam --- the TWO EYES of Humanity.?




Both those Divine Treatises claim to be based on the Sanskrit Aadhi- Vedas-


---through another Vedic GOSPEL LANGUAGE Tamil ---


---while such parallel COUNTER-CLAIMS may be confusing to any common-man,


---as to why they diametrically differ.!,


---if based on One and the Same Aadhi-Vedas---


---the BASIC GOSPEL for all Hindus --


--- Vedas the direct God’s Message to Humanity?




Comparatively what the THAMIZH-MARHAI by Alwars---


--- and THAMIZH PODHU-MARHAI by Thiruvalhlhuvar ---


--- Convey and mean to the Common-man the Mankind.?


-- Discussion Quite apt for the Current Tamil Year,


---named VIKRUTHI--- How.?.



How and Why the Saiva Nayanmars divine Tamil treatise, (depicting the Lord Siva as the Supreme over all other Vedic Gods)---

--- is just named as SAIVA-THIRUMURHAI and Not as THAMIZH-MARHAI---

--- I have already analytically clarified, under this thread,

---based on the commonly acceptable Universal Truth.

Further I am prepared to answer the questions if any on the subject in a BROAD SENSE of Human-perception---

--- intended behind and conveyed beneath as the FUNDAMENTAL BASIS and FOUNDATION towards GOD-REALISATION---

--- ensuring the maximum utility of the Mankind of EARTHLY WORTH as the SUPREME BIRTH---

--- for meaningful EARTHLY PARADISE available for MANKIND ONLY

--- backed by EMANCIPATION of Unparallel SOUL-MIGHT innate within every Human-being.


All are invited to participate with an OPEN-MIND---


--- true to the Spirit of Hearty Wisdom and real Sense of a FRIENDLY FORUM, intended for EXCHANGE OF THOUGHTS !


--Quite apt by sense for the Current Tamil Year, named VIKRUTHI---


--- one of the several meanings of which Sanskrit-word is ---


---EXCHANGE OF THOUGHTS, KNOWLEDGE and MUTUAL UTILITY.


(By Mankind in their own interests of Real Advancement on Earth----


--- by means of his/her RARE & SUPREME BIRTH Opportunity---


---differing and excelling over Beasts, Worms and other Earthly-Creatures EMULATIVELY as Human.!!!)
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