"Moral science" in schools... is it still relevant

I've just been reading one of the stories in the Stories/KadhaigaL section... "Girls are like roses" by Hummingbird... Just have a few thoughts that I was going to post in that thread, but then I thought it would be better to create a new thread for the topic on its own...

The last comment on that topic was quite a long time ago, so may be none of you guys want to talk about it any longer... But I'd like to say a few things...

"Girls are like roses..." ?!!!!! Really?????? So what are boys like? The writer raised that question herself, but even she doesn't seem to have any answer to it... Yes, that's 'cause it's a load of nonsense... I'm sorry. I'm sure though, that Braandan and Lambretta are right... these days, it's the boys that need protecting from the girls... ;-)

Although we can joke about this, there are people (still, even today) who would actually take it seriously, and are overprotective towards their children... (especially girls, but also boys) And their children then struggle when they have to start living in the real world for themselves...

"Moral Science"... I went to a school where we had "moral science" classes... in hindsight, I don't think I learned anything of any real practical use from those lessons... just a set of rules that were well-intentioned, but not really applicable in the world we live in today... it just made me really naive as a child and even into my teenage years (and I'm a guy, not a girl)...

Really we (especially in India) have an assumption that children are "innocent" and should be "protected"... well, of course children need guidance, and need to be looked after until they can look after themselves... but children shouldn't be too sheltered... most children are capable of understanding what the real world is like (if they are shown what it's like...) I really wish my parents (and the society that I grew up in) had not sheltered me so much when I was a child... I would have grown up and matured (mentally and emotionally) so much faster... But that is the hypocrisy of Indian "culture"... our great "kalaachaaram"...

I sincerely hope that school education in India will change (if it hasn't changed already) to take all of this into account... Children need things like sex education, they need to be taught (the basics) about how the economy works, they need social education that teaches them the realities of the world, not some moralistic ideals that don't really work in today's world... They need to be encouraged to take a genuine interest in science, not just to treat it as an exam that they have to pass to gain entry in engineering/medicine, etc...

I don't know what more to say... I invite your comments...

The title be better reframed:
"Moral science" in schools..is it still important
And my answer is yes! How else can a child know what is good & what is bad? How else can he understand the necessity/social responsibility to follow the right & avoid the wrong. Please do not think you gained nothing from having had that tuition! Unconsciously your thinking pattern would have been moulded.
It is not 'hypocrisy' to teach children morals. Any affectionate parent will warn his child that fire burns. It is foolishness to learn by personal, bitter experiences. A guide, an effective way to imbibe healthy moral qualities will do mighty good to the person & the society he lives in.

It used to be called "MI" (moral instruction). I don't know where from this "science" thing came up for the person who started this thread:-) May be science supports some of the common moral code for human society, but it has never been a science, IMO. Morals were "given" or "handed over" and not developed.

A lot of it is part of our OS kernel (called manasAtchi) which can be further trained by instructions / education, a lot of which is definitely required in impressionable young age and some part / reminders should continue for life. Without proper moral training, one would become a criminal and we have more than enough criminals in the society today. Do we want more? (If parents / schools don't teach morals, we'll be ever expanding the so-called "correction facilities" spending a lot of tax money. Right now, as I heard on radio news, State of Michigan where I live is strugging to host the ever increasing crowd of incoming criminals, as all the jails are full / over populated. With the state already struggling with a lot of deficit in budget, this is going to be a big crisis for them)

>>not some moralistic ideals that don't really work in today's world<<

Can you name some of these, that really don't work? We can discuss on those specifics...

"the person who started this thread..." You can call me by my user name "Bipolar" :-)

Well thanks a lot for your replies, both Pavalamani Pragasam and app_engine...

"Can you name some of these, that really don't work? We can discuss on those specifics..."

Well, moral science lessons always teach the importance of being unselfish, etc. How many adults do you know who are genuinely unselfish? How far can you get in life by being unselfish? I've tried it, and let me tell you it doesn't really take you very far... Most people I've worked with are selfish. There are very few who are genuinely considerate enough towards others - I've had to learn to put my priorities before others'. I realise this sounds a little silly, but seriously, it took me a while to come to this realisation. I'm not saying that everyone's got to be hugely selfish, but we've got to face the realities of the world we live in. Children should be taught through example, not just through lessons in school.

How tolerant is the average adult of people from different backgrounds? I can tell you (I'm not very proud of this, but it's the way things are) many of my friends and relatives living in India - although not racists or bigots, they are ignorant and prejudiced. I've been lucky, having moved out of India, presently living in the United Kingdom, I came here with lots of prejudices, but I'm growing wiser by the day.

I don't know if you've watched the Tamil film "Vedham Pudhidhu". One of the lead characters in that film is a man known as Balu Thevar. That character claims to hold anti-casteist views. There's a scene in that film where a child asks him his name, and he replies "Balu Thevar". The child then asks him if the "Thevar" bit in his name is some kind of title he obtained through his education. This is what leads him to the realisation that he himself, despite his professed ideology, has been prejudiced. A lot of Indians are like that. There's a bit of hypocrisy. How many of you would accept it if your son/daughter wanted to marry someone of a different background? I mean from a different caste, religion or country? Seriously? Honestly? I'm not against mixed marriages myself, but in reality how many people would actually accept it? I'm curious.

How many of you would genuinely dare to stand up and speak out against criminal elements in society? Like people who sell alcohol illegally? Everyone knows how much damage this causes, but I know of very few people who have that much courage. I certainly don't.

How many of you would genuinely take a stand against practices such as dowry or forced marriages? I mean, for example, if it happened to someone else, would you just look the other way, or would you care enough to try and help victims? Of course we hear about incidents and individuals who do stand up, but they are just exceptions. Not everyone is that courageous.

What about the commercialisation of health and education services? There are some really good hospitals, schools and universities in India, but these are not accessible by everyone, only a section of the population has access to this. How many of you can be bothered enough to work towards a world where everyone - EVERYONE - can get an education? (I have to say the Wikipedia project is really impressive, and the Tamil Wikipedia is not bad either, although certainly it could be even better) Where noone has to suffer illness because of poverty? Where EVERYONE can live safely, peacefully and securely? Most people aren't really strong or courageous enough to genuinely try to change the status quo. That includes me.

I'm not saying children don't need guidance!!! I said in my first post that children do need guidance... they do need to be shown the way... but they also need to be taught about the realities of the world. My point is that in India, certain subjects are just not discussed openly; we like to pretend we don't have problems... The other day for example, there was a guy on TV who said that "ulagame Tamil Naadai kalaachaara kovil-aa madhikidhu" (the whole world respects Tamil Nadu as a temple of culture) I had to laugh at that. I'm Tamil myself, and I know Tamil Nadu is far from being the most cultured place in the world. There aren't many other places in the world where people still worship actors (like "Makkal Thilagam", etc.) or name districts and villages after casteist leaders. Just look at some of the leaders today... I can't name them - that would cause controversy (if I haven't caused controversy already!!!) but we really have a sad bunch of leaders... People idolise Gandhi too much... He was a good guy with good intentions, but he was far from being a genius - he did make mistakes (let me make clear - I'm not anti-Gandhi, I'm just a guy who tries to take a fair view of everyone - whether Gandhi or anyone else - to me, there are no Mahatmas)

My point is that the world is not about good and bad, right and wrong - most of the time, it's somewhere in between - it's shades of grey. We've got to be objective and non-judgemental, and to do this, we have to have open debates - but in India, we still have so many taboos - maybe these taboos are breaking down, and that can only be a good thing. We have to learn from mistakes made in the past, and we begin by admitting that we made mistakes. Unfortunately in India, it's highly politically incorrect to criticise our "heroes" - people want to have their heroes and worship them. Unless we learn to examine ourselves and criticise ourselves objectively and truthfully, we are not going to make any progress. I watched the Tamil film "Vel" the other day. If I'm not mistaken, that film was released this year. But the characters in that film still spout dialogue saying that a woman should marry whoever her parents tell her to, and that her place after marriage is in the home. I know from my personal experiences that views like that can cause a LOT of damage. But these are the sorts of things that Tamil males want to hear. That's our "culture". Male chauvinism is very alive. How many teachers would actually bother to criticise that in schools? How many would actually hold meaningful debates about that? (No, not about the merits of the movie, but the idea(s) expressed therein). Many MGR and Rajni films are chauvinistic - carrying the message that a woman's place is at home, meekly serving her man. And yet, MGR and Rajni are our heroes. This is the kind of culture we celebrate.

Why don't we encourage our young people to think more openly? To ask more questions? I'm not suggesting we should reject everything that is old. We keep what's good, and reject whatever doesn't work. As app_engine says, "Morals were "given" or "handed over" and not developed." That is exactly the problem. Children (and everyone else, too) are encouraged just to accept what they are told. Moral science/instruction/whatever you want to call it in school has become just another exam for children to do. They don't really learn anything new. It doesn't really teach them anything meaningful. Without critical reasoning, analysis and thinking, we will forever be stuck in the past. It's like saying we should still be using telegraphy - not phones or email, because it's been tried and tested, and it works. We don't want to try anything new. Is that the attitude we want?

These are just a few thoughts. Maybe more to follow later. I realise this post seems very disorganised - I just wrote down the thoughts as they came to me. Sorry.

End rant.

Bipolar,

Nice long post. Some of your anguish over lip services to morals is definitely commendable. I'm with you - one must practice and be exemplery before preaching / teaching morals.

However, the whole post isn't addressing the "real" morals, at least some of those higher principles that I was taught in school. Let's separate this "Thamizh culture" thing from morals. Morals are applicable to all humans, Thamizh or otherwise. Examples - Positive rules like "love your neighbor as yourself" or its negative expansions such as "you should not murder or steal or lie etc." These are universal and not related to one single set or group of people.

When I posted on moral education, I meant such things and not some localized customs which can be good for a place and time period and cannot be applied everywhere or for ever.

That people don't practice self-sacrifice does not mean that "being selfish" is the best policy. Neither does it mean that nobody should teach such higher principles to young minds, if we want to live as humans. I think our species has the rare quality of altruism (which to my knowledge is not practiced consciously by animals, expect by instinct toward their younger ones in some cases).

Either way, your long post does talk about some social evils but does not say why high morals should not be taught in schools. Agreed, home is the first place to teach them and parental example is the most important requirement . However the community has a respo too and it's necessary to have it in schools (another reason is even the basic family structure is in trouble for quite sometime worldwide and home may not be the best place to learn certain things:-))

And the other thing that you talked about "being tolerant of other races / castes / creeds etc", to my knowledge my MI teacher taught me to love all humans regardless of their background (to this day, one of my most favourite stories is the "good samaritan" heard in my 4th standard).

My parents practiced it (and they didn't have to go to England to learn this BTW) and we follow too. That majority do not follow this higher principle does not take away the effectiveness of this moral in resolving any conflict:-) On the other hand, failure to follow this simple principle is the reason for all the hatred, conflicts, wars, bloodshed, divisions etc that we see among human society.

I agree that following this principle is more important than teaching, but how will a young person know if not taught?

And about making "morals" a science, to the extent we "study" how effective the laws / principles that we are handed over work , I can agree to call it a science. (Much like studying the EXISTING physical laws can be called a physical science. However, the physical science itself does not create universal laws but only understand how it works - whether people study it or not the constants such as g (the 9.8 thing) or c in m/s or charge of "e" do not keep changing)

app_engine : even in our school, it was called moral science! :)

bipolar: I think ( I could be completely wrong here), you learnt to see the bad things around you quicker than the good things! I am sure there are people around you who would help someone on the street quicker than you can think!

I was in India for three and a half months recently and am just back. I should say, the ironing lady who saw me carrying two bags and my child, rushed to my help to carry the bags upto my house... it was just plain humanity! Someone on the plane offered to hold my crying baby.... again plain humanity.... I can mention loads of incidents like this. None of them expected anything from me, it was just to help me. I might not have taken any of their help but still, the very thought that someone is around to help me made me feel better! :)

As I grew up, I realized the curriculum is fundamentally less equiped. For starters, I wish I was taught the scientific aspect of behavioral patterns, and the social constructs.