HINDUSIM,IS IT A COMBINTION OF CULTURES, RELIGON OR SCIENCE?

Can we classify 'HINDUSIM'as a religion or culture, I would opt out for the latter, because we do not have a "unified system of belief encoded in declaration of faith " like other major religion like Christianity Islam or Buddhism. Hinduism is formed of diverse traditions and has no single founder, it is a combination off various cultures with 'highly' contradicting views, scriptures and stories.. It has two main divisions 'Shivasism' (Shiva followers) and ' Vaishanvism', these kinds of divisions can be found in Christianity and Islam...

During 'Iron age of India' ShivLinga worships been the eldest practice known to man kind, it has been proved by many archaeologists and scholars alike. The introduction of Vaishnavism was introduced later after the invasion from 'Eastern Europe/ Persia' etc... In time, two of these cultures merged together to form tradition called 'Hinduism'...

We (Hindus) have all the scientific proofs about the creation of the universe, life,etc.. from our ancient ‘Rishi’s and techniques for self realisation using Yoga and meditation to achieve such gaols, as far as I know, 'No religion or sect has proved this before'. , yet we have enormous amount of contradiction stories, puranas etc...

Most Hindus don’t have clue about the tradition it self, unlike the Christians and Muslims.. We simply go to the temple to fulfil our ‘own’ needs and mourn about ‘our grief’ which is created by human itself, not by GOD. Majority of us have no clue about the ‘Shiva puran’ skanda purana;’ or Gita’.. This is not the case with Christians and Muslims. It is the responsibility of the authorities of the temple to preach the scriptures daily like in the church or mosque.
What are your thoughts on this…
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Sudhama sir

Pradheep

Rohit

where are you guys??

Hi Raghu..

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Originally Posted by Raghu

[tscii]Can we classify 'HINDUSIM'as a religion or culture, I would opt out for the latter, because we do not have a "unified system of belief encoded in declaration of faith " like other major religion like Christianity Islam or Buddhism. Hinduism is formed of diverse traditions and has no single founder, it is a combination off various cultures with 'highly' contradicting views, scriptures and stories.. It has two main divisions 'Shivasism' (Shiva followers) and ' Vaishanvism', these kinds of divisions can be found in Christianity and Islam...

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Did you mean 'can't' here?

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We (Hindus) have all the scientific proofs about the creation of the universe, life,etc.. from our ancient ‘Rishi’s

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Scientific proofs? I am not sure if we have scientific proofs for the creation of the Universe etc. Could you be more clear here?

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Most Hindus don’t have clue about the tradition it self, unlike the Christians and Muslims.. We simply go to the temple to fulfil our ‘own’ needs and mourn about ‘our grief’ which is created by human itself, not by GOD. Majority of us have no clue about the ‘Shiva puran’ skanda purana;’ or Gita’.. This is not the case with Christians and Muslims. It is the responsibility of the authorities of the temple to preach the scriptures daily like in the church or mosque.

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One problem is that there is too much literature. Where does one begin? Ideally the starting points are the Itihaasas, Ramayana and Mahabharatha (more importantly). A lot of people know these stories, but inspite of all that even an iota of real understanding seems to be missing from our lives. There exist very few people who grasp the totality of just these Itihaasas, let alone the esoteric treatises of Hinduism. Also, we have the problem of language, where few people hardly ever learn Tamil or Sanskrit deeply enough to appreciate these ancient texts. And then finally there is the problem of over dependence and indoctrination.

Moreover, Hinduism has not 'required/forced' people to do any special activities/rituals or develop a belief in anything. Ultimately each sect seems to stress of viewing all beings with equanimity and compassion. So a 'preaching' seems rather unnecessary. However, awareness of the foundational elements of Hinduism should be developed as you say.

There are several avenues in Hinduism even in this modern world to hunt individually for knowledge, and for the deeply motivated seeker, the Guru himself shows the way to true freedom, which IMHO should be the sole aim. Honestly I think few people really understand or care for such a life (including among those who have a wide knowledge of the scriptures).

Love and Light.

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NO "ISM" LABEL... as Saivism or Vaishnawism or the like... EXCLUSIVELY APT ...

..Even as HINDU-ISM.!...

...for this LARGE-HEARTED... VEDIC-CULTURE of Human-Values.!

Religions or various pursuits of God-Realisation are intended to BROADEN the HUMAN- OUTLOOK....

....and UPLIFT the Mankind alone possessing the invaluable SOUL... by means of Applied Wisdom and Cultured Mind...

....towards EMANCIPATION OF HUMAN SOUL....

....to ensure that Supreme Earthly birth... TRULY ENJOY his ROYAL OPPORTUNITY by all Senses...

...and NOT TO NARROW DOWN.... nor DIVIDE the One Global Humanity.!

This Vedic-Religion... is the COMPRHENSIVE plus INTEGRAL FORM of ALL THE POPULAR WORLD RELIGIONS.!

The Name of Vedic-Religion lablelled as HINDUISM... is in fact called as SANAATHANA-DHARMA... by its followers.

..which means ETERNAL RELIGION of God-stipulated COMMON Order for the sake of ENTIRE MANKIND... of any Age and Era..

How.?

Better we approach and UNDERSTAND...Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Dr Annie Besant, Sri Krishna Chaithanya... and so on...

...to TRULY KNOW... what is Vedic-Culture...

.... intended for EMANICIPATION OF HUMANITY.


This Religion alone renders FULL LIBERTY to the devotees to worship and follow any God....

...through any means amongst the wide options provided to avail...

.... by Ones own choice and perception

Although the different means may cause varied sorts of experience.... All the Results will be almost EQUAL...

....because the ultimate GOD IS ONE.!!!

That One Supreme God... takes up several forms and shapes... in the manner the devotee believes and follows... say Vedas.

Who is that ONE GOD... Hiding behind several Gods.?

First of all... Such a logical Question and Thought on SUPREME GOD... are unnecessary for a Layman- Devotee.

However if anyone is anxious to know... then let him / her just think awhile... and OBSERVE...

...why at the beginning and end of Vedic chanting... it is prayed as...HARIHI OHM.!!!

Who is that Hari.? Why chanted so..?

That will clarify and answer all our Doubts and Questions....

.... as well as on One and all the Questions on ANY GOD and FORM....

....meant for SUPER-HUMAN Protection and Surveilence for Mankind.!!!

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Originally Posted by Raghu

Can we classify 'HINDUSIM'as a religion or culture, I would opt out for the latter, because we do not have a "unified system of belief encoded in declaration of faith " like other major religion like Christianity Islam or Buddhism. Hinduism is formed of diverse traditions and has no single founder, it is a combination off various cultures with 'highly' contradicting views, scriptures and stories.. It has two main divisions 'Shivasism' (Shiva followers) and ' Vaishanvism', these kinds of divisions can be found in Christianity and Islam...

During 'Iron age of India' ShivLinga worships been the eldest practice known to man kind, it has been proved by many archaeologists and scholars alike. The introduction of Vaishnavism was introduced later after the invasion from 'Eastern Europe/ Persia' etc... In time, two of these cultures merged together to form tradition called 'Hinduism'...

We (Hindus) have all the scientific proofs about the creation of the universe, life,etc.. from our ancient ‘Rishi’s and techniques for self realisation using Yoga and meditation to achieve such gaols, as far as I know, 'No religion or sect has proved this before'. , yet we have enormous amount of contradiction stories, puranas etc...

Most Hindus don’t have clue about the tradition it self, unlike the Christians and Muslims.. We simply go to the temple to fulfil our ‘own’ needs and mourn about ‘our grief’ which is created by human itself, not by GOD. Majority of us have no clue about the ‘Shiva puran’ skanda purana;’ or Gita’.. This is not the case with Christians and Muslims. It is the responsibility of the authorities of the temple to preach the scriptures daily like in the church or mosque.
What are your thoughts on this…
[/b]

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Dear Raghu
I think the Vedic view has a Unique "Single Universal Concept". All the branches are different flavors of that single concept giving a feeling of multitudeness, adding to its beauty. All the off shoots of it including Jainism and Buddhism also carry that Universal Concept.

Last week I had a discussion with my sister on this same topic and this is how I explained. I told her, Morning when I reached your home, you offered me coffee, and I did not say the sugar in your kitchen is sweet, instead said the coffee is sweet and good. For breakfast you made the traditional coconut milk dipped aappam, with the same sugar you had in your kitchen and I praised the sweetned coconut milk. At 11.00 you gave a rasna-drink again sweetned with the same kitchen sugar. At lunch you gave me milk-payasam sweetned with the same sugar.

It is "one sugar" that you gave me all the time trying to please my sweet-taste buds, only the flavors and additional ingredients were different. Without sugar none of them would be enjoyable. At the same time, whether it was coffee, rasna-drink or coconut-milk or payasam, you added only one sugar from one bottle. But each tasted different. The reality is I was only tasting the same sugar everytime. Without Awareness of Sugar I can keep seeing the difference of sweet-items.

Same way is Vedic Culture, there is one Fundamental Truth offered in different flavors in Shaivism, Vaishnavism and other isms. The fundamental concept is one and the same, like the single sugar giving sweetness all the time in different foods. All rituals , festivals of Vedic tradition has only one Fundamental Truth to Impart.

Hinduism was practiced in Kazakhstan (remains of idols were found) in fact all the countries ending with 'stan' (like Hindustan), like Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, takistan, Kyrgyzstan all have had major Hindu influences... in fact Buddhism had influences in Afghanistan and Kazakhstan , these countries border each others.

I left Pakistan here, as it was part of Hindustan before

I am aware the Hinduism was spread across Indonesia , Burma, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam, Nepal, but did it ever spread into china like Buddhism did???

Hinduism has historically been a non-missionizing religious tradition. It has, however, spread to many parts of South and Southeast Asia, and to the West, and in the process has adapted to the cultural of these regions.


Hinduism was not originally a unified religious tradition. Rather, it consisted of a wide range of practices and beliefs that were only loosely linked. There was from the beginning wide regional variation. Local traditions existed almost independently, linked by some basic principles-karma, say, or samsara--or a basic understanding of the power of the divine. But the Indian subcontinent is a huge and diverse landmass, and the people who inhabit India differ sometimes quite radically depending on where they live. There are hundreds of languages, and thousands of local cults and local traditions that may be unknown outside of a particular region or even a particular village.

Early western scholars posited a geographical and ideological divide in Hinduism, one that was characterized as a split between the north and the south. The north, these orientalist scholars argued, was characterized by the religious ideas of the Vedas, which, they argued, were brought from outside of India by ancient Europeans, the Aryans. These outsiders invaded northern India and pushed the indigenous peoples to the south. The northerners spoke variations of Sanskrit. The southerners, this theory held, were known as Dravidians, and spoke variations of Tamil. The southerners were said to be darker than their light-skinned Aryan neighbors, and were also less educated, less pure, and their religious traditions less evolved.

This is a typically slanted and perniciously biased colonialist history. In fact, pre-Vedic religious traditions mixed with Vedic ideas and practices from the beginning, and what emerged as what some call "classical" Hinduism is a complex intermingling of a whole range of local and pan-Indian traditions. Some aspects of Hinduism are truly pan-Indian: the Vedas, for instance, are the basic underlying foundation for virtually all forms of Hinduism; the great epics, the Mahabharata and Ramayana, are mostly pan-Indian, although even they-particularly the Ramayana-have regional variations. The great gods and goddesses-Shiva, Vishnu, Devi-are worshipped everywhere, but regional variations are the norm rather than the exception.

Hinduism has historically been a non-missionizing religious tradition. This is specifically linked to the fundamental theological worldview that all schools of Hinduism share. Human beings are reborn into the world according to their past deeds in prior lifetimes. This is the basic law of karma. Thus being a Hindu is not a matter of choice or cultural circumstance; it is a reflection of the workings of the cosmos. Thus many (although not all) Hindus have held that one cannot convert to Hinduism. You are either born a Hindu, or you are not. As a result, to be Hindu has traditionally meant to be a Hindu in India.

Hinduism has, however, spread to other parts of the world. It has spread as a result of Hindu kings conquering non-Hindu lands; it has spread as a result of colonization and then globalization; and in the modern period it has spread as a result of westerners adopting, and converting to, Hindu practices and beliefs. Hindu kings began to make forays into Sri Lanka and parts of southeast Asia as early as the 7th century C.E. Hinduism was a major cultural force in much of Southeast Asia, as evidenced, for example, by Angkor Wat or contemporary Balinese Hinduism. The Srivijaya kingdom, established on the island of Sumatra in what is now Indonesia, was a huge Hindu kingdom. In this context, Hinduism took on a distinctly local character, both in terms of the forms of the gods and goddesses and their associated ritual practices. This kind of political expansion outside of India is the exception rather than the rule, however.

Hinduism has become a far more international religion in the modern world, first as a result of colonialism and second as a result of globalization. There are Hindu communities in the West Indies, for instance, because British traders captured and enslaved Hindus, taking them off to work in the tea and coffee plantations in their West Indian colonies. After the collapse of the British Raj, many of these former slaves stayed, cultivating a distinctly local form of Hinduism. The collapse of the British Empire also meant that Hindus, as citizens of the former colonies, could travel outside of India to other former colonies, most notably Great Britain and Canada, where large communities of so-called "Diasporic Hindus" continue to practice traditional forms of Hinduism that have, nonetheless, taken on local characteristics. There are impressive Hindu temples serving substantial Hindu communities throughout England, in Canada, and in the United States.

A question that remains is, given the incredible internal variations and diversity, how has Hinduism come to be understood as a single religious tradition? In some ways, it is not and never will be. That said, however, there are certain pan-Indian (and, in the contemporary world, international) practices and traditions and beliefs that have, over the centuries, spread throughout the Hindu world and that unite the many variations of the tradition.

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Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

I am aware the Hinduism was spread across Indonesia , Burma, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam, Nepal, but did it ever spread into china like Buddhism did???

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I guess no, the Himalayas might have been a deterrent.

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Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

Hinduism was practiced in Kazakhstan (remains of idols were found) in fact all the countries ending with 'stan' (like Hindustan), like Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, takistan, Kyrgyzstan all have had major Hindu influences... in fact Buddhism had influences in Afghanistan and Kazakhstan , these countries border each others.

I left Pakistan here, as it was part of Hindustan before

I am aware the Hinduism was spread across Indonesia , Burma, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam, Nepal, but did it ever spread into china like Buddhism did???

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These places were influenced by a pre-Vedic civilization (and therefore not 'Hinduism' strictly) in the distant past, the one that arose near Mesopotamia (the regions around Iraq - Iran), which might be considered the starting point of all religions/civilizations. Of course, the Tamils seemed to have relations with this civilization, don't know how the chemistry of culture and religion worked out between these two.

Love and Light.

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Originally Posted by anbu_kathir

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Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

I am aware the Hinduism was spread across Indonesia , Burma, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam, Nepal, but did it ever spread into china like Buddhism did???

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I guess no, the Himalayas might have been a deterrent.

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Hmmm, but then again Nepal is at high altitude as well, if that is so then how did buddism get spread in china?

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Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

Hmmm, but then again Nepal is at high altitude as well, if that is so then how did buddism get spread in china?

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http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...8181000AAZmiP2

Might be a better answer than mine, I think.

Love and Light.

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But for the advent of the Great Seer, SANKARACHARYA....!!!....???

...the Awathara (Re-incarnation) of God SIVA.!!!



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(1) Lord Gowthama Buddha, the Founder of Buddism, was born in Kapilawasthu, NEPAL.

So when Buddhism sprouted in India at Gaya, Bihar... it expanded around fast and spread its wings to Nepal too.

Some of the Buddhist mutts of such ancient days still exist even now... at Nepal, as a Standing-proof for this fact.

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[/html:7b5c15ac3c](2) After the Kalinga war, the Emperor Ashoka embraced Buddhism and patronised it highly such that his whole Empire spread over almost the whole of North India became the domain of Buddhism...

..beating out Hinduism.

Then the Buddhist Monks propogated Buddhism all over India... converting all the People to Buddhism, starting from the Kings.

(3) Consequently due to lack of Patronisation, the Hinduism gradually became almost exrinct, until the advent of the Great Sankaracharya, who revived Hinduism, the Vedic Religion.

(4) Adhi Sankaracharya took up a dynamic lead with a vow to rout out Buddhism and Jainism at the earliest,

...and Throne up Hinduism again at the earliest...

Just within a short period of 16 years... He travelled all over India extensively alongwith his main disciple assistants... almost by foot... in search of each Religious Monk Leader of every Region in those hard days

...and challenged them on the Veracity and Viability of Buddhism in counter to Vedic Religion, so called Hinduism.

Invariably Sankaracharya won over every Opponent Leader in the Debate and converted them back to Hinduism along with thousands of their disciples...

...conforming to the pre-conditions.

Thus Hinduism got revived prominently in North India.

(5) Then he took up South India, where Buddhism was firm-rooted with its Head-quarters at Kanchipuram.

He determined to fight it out at its capital itself and so established his Headquarters at Kanchi, and achieved his goal, by defeating all the Kanchi mutt Buddhist heads too.

Eventually the whole of South India too reversed back to Hinduism, only because of the Sole warfoot endeavour of the Great Sankaracharya....the INVINCIBLE of that era.

(6) How Buddhism got spread.... out of India.?

Because of Sankamithra the Daughter of Emperor Asoka... who travelled extensively out of India along with a Batch pf Monks and spread Buddhism...

....exploiting the widespread IGNORANCE, INNOCENCE and poverty of peasants...

...they could be converted from Hinduism (as per History -Not my Opinion)

(7) If Sankaracharya would have set his feet... out of India too...

Hinduism would not have lost its glory there, and Buddhism would have been wiped out almost radically out of India too.!

(8) The main point of Sankaracharya against Buddhism was... that Buddhism is NOT AT ALL A RELIGION...

..but the Human Code of Conduct... of MORAL VALUES...

...and NOT BEYOND... towards the Soul aspects... as is necessary to be qualified as Religion.

Because Buddhism is SOONYA VAADHA.... Does not clearly and pinpointedly speak about God, the Supreme Ruler of Universe.

And even within Buddhism there exist lot of Self-contradictions. .

... it got split up into several splinters... conspicuously with the two prominent Branches as KEENA-YANA and MAHA-YANA

Buddhist Monk- Heads of various divisions... used to constantly vie and oppose with each other...

....amongst themselves of one and the same Religion, Buddhism...

...which unhealthy trend helped Sankaracharya to rout out the whole of Buddhism easily..

....one by one of contradictory divisions.

(9) Concurrently Sankaracharya became cautious to safeguard Hinduism because of similar probable trend in Hinduism too..

...by means of several Branches as Saivam, Saktham, Ganapathyam, Kaumaaram Sauram etc.. within One composite Vedic Religion Hinduism

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[/html:7b5c15ac3c]Hence Sankaracharya's second battle was to correct such a SICKLY MAN-MADE ATMOSPHERE within one and the same Religion... the Vedic Hindu Religion.

So he went in search of each such Branch-heads, challenged them for debate and won over everyone of them invariably...

Ultimately he established the VEDIC TRUTH.. that all those Six main Branches of ONE HINDU RELIGION...

....Comprising of various Sub-divisions... as Saivam, Saktham etc ..the the God-made branches of MOSAIC FORM...

...being WIDEST OPTIONS... made available, suiting to the individual Mind-set of the multi-faceted devotees.

Rather they are the Branches of One Common Religion... Indirect Vaishnawam... with multi-paths....

...leading towards ONE COMMON GOAL..... Paramathma NARAYANA...

..since Lord Narayana is the SUPREME VEDIC GOD... who has created several other Gods...

..through whom Narayana, so called Parameswara bestows His grace... as the Common Protecor Ruler for ALL HINDUS..

...as categorically declared by Vedas.

Vedic Sankara-Bashyam, Geetha-Bashyam and Sahasranama Bashyam of Sankaracharya firmly assert....

....such an UNDISPUTABLE Vedic stand... quite clearly, undoubtedly and categorically.

Ultimately Sankaracharya could unite all those Splinters of Hinduism within on fold of Vedic Religion, so called Hinduism.

(10) But for the advent of the GREAT SEER Sankaracharya... the whole of India NOW would have been chanting...

...."Buddham charanam gachaami. Sangam charanam gachaami Dhammam charanam gachaami..!!!...

..similar to most of the present Thailand, Burma (Myanmar), Srilanka regions.,..

...wherein the Great Mahaan... the Reincarnation (Awathara) of the God PARAMA-SHIVA Himself...

... as Adhi Sankarachrya.... did not ever set his sacred feet.
..
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Originally Posted by Sudhaama

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...leading towards ONE COMMON GOAL..... Paramathma NARAYANA...

..since Lord Narayana is the SUPREME VEDIC GOD... who has created several other Gods...

..through whom Narayana, so called Parameswara bestows His grace... as the Common Protecor Ruler for ALL HINDUS..
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Sudhamma sir,

I am really sorry to say this, this is nothing but fanatism from vaishnavites, as Far as I know sankaracharya does not refer to the supreme being as 'naryayna'. This Narayana became famous, thanks to our cult creator and brain washing founder 'A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada during the 60's , it bacme cult amongst 'Gypsy' like americans in USA.. It was him and another film producer called 'Ramanand saagar' who bought this 'Narayana' concept, in the name 'International Society for Krishna Consciousness'

As you are aware shaivites completley rejects the above theory!

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Originally Posted by Sudhaama

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(7) If Sankaracharya would have set his feet... out of India too...

Hinduism would not have lost its glory there, and Buddhism would have been wiped out almost radically out of India too.!
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Sudhamm sir

Pardon me, If I am wrong, didn't the Chola Monarchy rule south and central India during 'Adi Shankararchrya' period , ie. 7th century?? Chola's ruled burma, thailand, indonesia , malaysia, sri lanka and as far as Philipines??? Didn't they establish Shaivism there?? then how did budhism manage to survive in those places?? interestingly how did 'Islam' got spread 90% of Indonesia????

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Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

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Originally Posted by Sudhaama

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...leading towards ONE COMMON GOAL..... Paramathma NARAYANA...

..since Lord Narayana is the SUPREME VEDIC GOD... who has created several other Gods...

..through whom Narayana, so called Parameswara bestows His grace... as the Common Protecor Ruler for ALL HINDUS..
.
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Sudhamma sir,

I am really sorry to say this, this is nothing but fanatism from vaishnavites, as Far as I know sankaracharya does not refer to the supreme being as 'naryayna'. This Narayana became famous, thanks to our cult creator and brain washing founder 'A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada during the 60's , it bacme cult amongst 'Gypsy' like americans in USA.. It was him and another film producer called 'Ramanand saagar' who bought this 'Narayana' concept, in the name 'International Society for Krishna Consciousness'

As you are aware shaivites completley rejects the above theory!

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Dear Paramashiva,

Welcome to differ with me.

But please assert your stand by means of counter-points SPECIFICALLY....

..quoting from Sankaracharya's works and Biography.
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(7) If Sankaracharya would have set his feet... out of India too...

Hinduism would not have lost its glory there, and Buddhism would have been wiped out almost radically out of India too.!
.

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Sudhamm sir

Pardon me, If I am wrong, didn't the Chola Monarchy rule south and central India during 'Adi Shankararchrya' period , ie. 7th century?? Chola's ruled burma, thailand, indonesia , malaysia, sri lanka and as far as Philipines??? Didn't they establish Shaivism there?? then how did budhism manage to survive in those places?? interestingly how did 'Islam' got spread 90% of Indonesia????

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Chola Empire covered... partly South India, SriLanka, Burma (Myanmar), Singapore, Malaysia, Maldives, Indonesia and partly Philippines.

In Indonesia there exists a River… named KAMPAR River… as a proof of the spread of the wings of Chola dynasty there too.

Chola Empire was founded only in 8th century ruling over a large Empire for about 500 years upto 13th century

Adhi Sankaracharya’s Life-period was just for 32 years during 788 – 820 A.D.

...prior to Chola’s period.

No doubt, Cholas established Hinduism all through their Empire especially Saivam of Nayanmars.

Sankaracharya was so much over-burdened during his very short Life-time...

...that he could not have any time to spare for taking up the task out of India too.

..

1) Adi Shankaracharya born on :- 788 CE

2) Chola dynasty was from 300 BC till 1279 right?

So surely 'Adi Shankaracharya' was alive during the Chola times, am I wrong? :oops:

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Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

I am really sorry to say this, this is nothing but fanatism from vaishnavites, as Far as I know sankaracharya does not refer to the supreme being as 'naryayna'.

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He does, at several places, as 'Narayana', 'Vishnu' or 'Hari'. For example, in his Brahmasutra Bhashya, commenting on sutra 1.2.7 (referring to meditation on 'Hari' in the salagramam); or in his commentary on Mandukyakarika, commenting on karika 4.1 (where he speaks of 'Narayana purushottama'); or most unequivocally in his commentary to sutra 2.2.42 (in the Brahmasutra bhashya) where he refers to Narayana (specifically, using that name) as 'paramatma sarvatma'. A scholar will be able to cite many more instances - these are what I can pull out. All this makes perfect sense if you understand what Adi Shankaracharya was trying to do.

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Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

As you are aware shaivites completley rejects the above theory!

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Well, some of them do anyway, usually by arguing that each of these verses refers to something less than Parabrahman. Others don't (there are many advaitin communities in Tamil Nadu and South India which have no problem with Vaishnavism). I think the original Sanskrit is quite clear, but that's only my opinion.

Ultimately, the point is that it makes very little sense to project Shaivite-Vaishnavite sectarianism - which in its virulent form doesn't go much further back than the period of the Imperial Cholas - onto Adi Shankaracharya. It's about as absurd as trying to interpret the rivalry between the Cholas and Pandiyas in the light of DMK-AIADMK rivalry. Shankaracharya was not a sectarian Shaivite or a sectarian Vaishnavite, because sectarian Shaivism and Vaishnavism did not exist in his day, thank God.

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Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

1) Adi Shankaracharya born on :- 788 CE

2) Chola dynasty was from 300 BC till 1279 right?

So surely 'Adi Shankaracharya' was alive during the Chola times, am I wrong? :oops:

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The Chola kingdom more or less disappeared between the 3rd century AD and the 9th century AD. There are no records of the kingdom or dynasty during this time. The Chola kingdom was reestablished by Vijayalaya Chozhan, who claimed to be the heir to the Chola throne, in 848 AD (approximately). We don't really know what happened to the Cholas in the interim. It's much the same with the Pandiyas - they disappear between the 3rd century AD and around 590 AD when Kadungon Pandiyan reestablished the kingdom. Adi Shankaracharya lived in a period when the Pandiyan kingdom had been reestablished, but not the Chola kingdom.

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Originally Posted by podalangai

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Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

I am really sorry to say this, this is nothing but fanatism from vaishnavites, as Far as I know sankaracharya does not refer to the supreme being as 'naryayna'.

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He does, at several places, as 'Narayana', 'Vishnu' or 'Hari'. For example, in his Brahmasutra Bhashya, commenting on sutra 1.2.7 (referring to meditation on 'Hari' in the salagramam); or in his commentary on Mandukyakarika, commenting on karika 4.1 (where he speaks of 'Narayana purushottama'); or most unequivocally in his commentary to sutra 2.2.42 (in the Brahmasutra bhashya) where he refers to Narayana (specifically, using that name) as 'paramatma sarvatma'. A scholar will be able to cite many more instances - these are what I can pull out. All this makes perfect sense if you understand what Adi Shankaracharya was trying to do

---

Podalangai sir,

I know he mentiones about Narayana, and all other names of God, but as Far as I know he does not refer naryana as 'Supreme being' he refers the supreme being as 'Parama Shiva' as far as I know

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by podalangai

Ultimately, the point is that it makes very little sense to project Shaivite-Vaishnavite sectarianism - which in its virulent form doesn't go much further back than the period of the Imperial Cholas - onto Adi Shankaracharya. It's about as absurd as trying to interpret the rivalry between the Cholas and Pandiyas in the light of DMK-AIADMK rivalry. Shankaracharya was not a sectarian Shaivite or a sectarian Vaishnavite, because sectarian Shaivism and Vaishnavism did not exist in his day, thank God.

---

I completley agree with you podlangai sir, but what really annoys me is the brain washed ISKON members , they are extremley fanatical, they completley reject the idea of Saivam, and promote vaishnavam as the superior. They are just blindly following a follower, who has wrote some books based on various upanisad, geetha , puranas and his 'OWN' views.. This seem more like cult to me than religious practice

.


Conforming to Devotee's SELF-ASSIGNED Faith, Self-centred Perception...


...Mindset, Propensities, Imagination, Will and LOFTY WISHES.!



....although CONTRADICTORY amongst themselves.!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by podalangai

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

I am really sorry to say this, this is nothing but fanatism from vaishnavites, as Far as I know sankaracharya does not refer to the supreme being as 'naryayna'.

---

He does, at several places, as 'Narayana', 'Vishnu' or 'Hari'.

.... All this makes perfect sense if you understand what Adi Shankaracharya was trying to do

---

Podalangai sir,

I know he mentiones about Narayana, and all other names of God, but as Far as I know he does not refer naryana as 'Supreme being' he refers the supreme being as 'Parama Shiva' as far as I know

---

[html:18b6fcc1a2]
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...008/Siva59.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p.../Sankara10.jpg
[/html:18b6fcc1a2] First of all, I am unable to understand...

..why this UNNECESSARY discussion...

....amongst WE, THE FOLLOWERS...

....on who is the PARAMATHMA .... SUPREME GOD....

....the Omnipotent ONE SUPER-COMMANDER over all other Gods.

Hinduism is the only Religion which renders ample Freedom and Liberty to worship and believe any Vedic God as the Supreme, at the devotees own choice... and WILL.

Yes. If a Saivite believes Lord Siva as the Supreme God / Paramathma... he / she is at Liberty to believe and worship so.

Similarly a Shaaktha believes Shakthi or Kali as the Supreme Paramathma, he / she can worship and chant accordingly....

...and parallelly the other Sectarians amongst the Six Sects... created by One Paramaathma Narayana...

..as Various Elementary paths towards One Common Goal...

...by Sauram, Gaanapathyam, Kaumaram, Saivam, Saaktham and SWAABHAAVIKAM.

The Supreme God created for the convenience of Mosaic form of Humanity...

....seeking PRIVATE Options at the devotees own choice..

...similar to various sorts of Food as Options.... while all of them render the same nutritions in different forms and Ingredients.

Accordingly various Puranas... other than the common 18 Puranas... depict different Gods' Greatness... CONTRADICTING EACH OTHER...

..such as Muruga the Supreme... the Guru for Siva....


[html:18b6fcc1a2]
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...07/Muruha3.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...07/Muruha2.gif
[/html:18b6fcc1a2]


...Ganesa the Prime God who created other Gods...

...Vishnu and Brahma searched for the Head and Feet of Siva and failed by Adi-mudi Kaanhaa padalam (as portrayed by Nayanmars)....

..Shakthi Parvathi was defeated by Nataraja, Siva...

...Shakthi maatha is the Supreme creator Ruler over Vishnu Siva and other Gods...

..who as Kali, defeated Lord Siva...

[html:18b6fcc1a2]
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...eb07/Kali2.jpg
[/html:18b6fcc1a2]. ...and so on.

...to suit the specific sectarian's SELF-CENTRED WISHES... although they are the VARIOUS FALSE BELIEFS...

...since Not True... conforming to Vedas.

So to mean... all these Six Sects are the various IMAGINARY FAITHS... as the tributary Feeder-paths....

....towards the ULTIMATE ONE COMMON MAIN PATH ....VAISHNAWAM....

....as clearly declared by Vedas.

The most interesting part of Vedic Religion Hinduism is... that it renders as the Sixth Option named as... SWAABHAAVIKAM...

By which the devotee can worship any Doll, Tree, Mountain, River or ANY OBJECT of his own making too.... as God... if he can believe it so.

In such a case, the Supreme God enters into that Object and renders His Grace...

...making the Devotees Faith as True... even though a False belief.

Vedas categorically assert that the Supreme Lord Paramathma is Narayana only...

....and Narayana only the PARAMESWARA in different forms and Names.

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Krishna Chaithanya, Thukaram as well as even the German Scholar Dr Max Muller... have further clarified that Truth... in ONE VOICE.

Sankaracharya too... has clearly asserted such a Vedic Truth as Narayana is the ONLY PARAMATHMA.

[html:18b6fcc1a2]
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...7/Vishnu33.jpg
[/html:18b6fcc1a2]


We can observe in Kerala Temples... even now-a-days...

...the devotees chant ACHA NARAYANA (Oh Father Narayana)... while entering Siva Temples ... and...

...AMMAE NARAYANA (Oh Mother Narayana)... while entering Shakthi temples...

...even if there may be NO SANNIDHI in those Temples... for GOD NARAYANA.!

That is the traditional custom laid down by Adhi Sankaracharya...

...to ELIMINATE ANY PROBABLE CONFUSIONS.... in the minds of Devotees on the ONLY Paramathma NARAYANA... as per Vedas...

...who bestows grace through different Gods, Forms and Names as per individuals choice and wishes.!

Vedic Religion Hinduism is extolled by Dr. Annie Besant, Dr Max Muller and several other International Scholars too...

....as the Great Religion... UNPARALLEL IN THE WORLD...

...mainly because of such WIDE OPTIONS... provided to cater to the varied individual devotees tastes and choices...

..conforming to the Devotee's own self-assigned Faith, Imagination and LOFTY WISHES.!

....although CONTRADICTORY amongst themselves.!!!
.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sudhaama

.


Conforming to Devotee's SELF-ASSIGNED Faith, Self-centred Perception...


...Mindset, Propensities, Imagination, Will and LOFTY WISHES.!



....although CONTRADICTORY amongst themselves.!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by podalangai

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

I am really sorry to say this, this is nothing but fanatism from vaishnavites, as Far as I know sankaracharya does not refer to the supreme being as 'naryayna'.

---

He does, at several places, as 'Narayana', 'Vishnu' or 'Hari'.

.... All this makes perfect sense if you understand what Adi Shankaracharya was trying to do

---

Podalangai sir,

I know he mentiones about Narayana, and all other names of God, but as Far as I know he does not refer naryana as 'Supreme being' he refers the supreme being as 'Parama Shiva' as far as I know

---

HTML Code:

---

[img]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/2008/Thiru-Feb2008/Siva59.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/2008/Thiru-Feb2008/Sankara10.jpg[/img]

---

First of all, I am unable to understand...

..why this UNNECESSARY discussion...

....amongst WE, THE FOLLOWERS...

....on who is the PARAMATHMA .... SUPREME GOD....

....the Omnipotent ONE SUPER-COMMANDER over all other Gods.

Hinduism is the only Religion which renders ample Freedom and Liberty to worship and believe any Vedic God as the Supreme, at the devotees own choice... and WILL.

Yes. If a Saivite believes Lord Siva as the Supreme God / Paramathma... he / she is at Liberty to believe and worship so.

Similarly a Shaaktha believes Shakthi or Kali as the Supreme Paramathma, he / she can worship and chant accordingly....

...and parallelly the other Sectarians amongst the Six Sects... created by One Paramaathma Narayana...

..as Various Elementary paths towards One Common Goal...

...by Sauram, Gaanapathyam, Kaumaram, Saivam, Saaktham and SWAABHAAVIKAM.

The Supreme God created for the convenience of Mosaic form of Humanity...

....seeking PRIVATE Options at the devotees own choice..

...similar to various sorts of Food as Options.... while all of them render the same nutritions in different forms and Ingredients.

Accordingly various Puranas... other than the common 18 Puranas... depict different Gods' Greatness... CONTRADICTING EACH OTHER...

..such as Muruga the Supreme... the Guru for Siva....

HTML Code:

---

[img]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/Thiru-Feb07/Muruha3.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/Thiru-Feb07/Muruha2.gif[/img]

---

...Ganesa the Prime God who created other Gods...

...Vishnu and Brahma searched for the Head and Feet of Siva and failed by Adi-mudi Kaanhaa padalam (as portrayed by Nayanmars)....

..Shakthi Parvathi was defeated by Nataraja, Siva...

...Shakthi maatha is the Supreme creator Ruler over Vishnu Siva and other Gods...

..who as Kali, defeated Lord Siva...

HTML Code:

---

[img]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/Thiru-Feb07/Kali2.jpg[/img]

---

. ...and so on.

...to suit the specific sectarian's SELF-CENTRED WISHES... although they are the VARIOUS FALSE BELIEFS...

...since Not True... conforming to Vedas.

So to mean... all these Six Sects are the various IMAGINARY FAITHS... as the tributary Feeder-paths....

....towards the ULTIMATE ONE COMMON MAIN PATH ....VAISHNAWAM....

....as clearly declared by Vedas.

The most interesting part of Vedic Religion Hinduism is... that it renders as the Sixth Option named as... SWAABHAAVIKAM...

By which the devotee can worship any Doll, Tree, Mountain, River or ANY OBJECT of his own making too.... as God... if he can believe it so.

In such a case, the Supreme God enters into that Object and renders His Grace...

...making the Devotees Faith as True... even though a False belief.

Vedas categorically assert that the Supreme Lord Paramathma is Narayana only...

....and Narayana only the PARAMESWARA in different forms and Names.

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Krishna Chaithanya, Thukaram as well as even the German Scholar Dr Max Muller... have further clarified that Truth... in ONE VOICE.

Sankaracharya too... has clearly asserted such a Vedic Truth as Narayana is the ONLY PARAMATHMA.

HTML Code:

---

[img]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/Thiru-Feb07/Vishnu33.jpg[/img]

---

We can observe in Kerala Temples... even now-a-days...

...the devotees chant ACHA NARAYANA (Oh Father Narayana)... while entering Siva Temples ... and...

...AMMAE NARAYANA (Oh Mother Narayana)... while entering Shakthi temples...

...even if there may be NO SANNIDHI in those Temples... for GOD NARAYANA.!

That is the traditional custom laid down by Adhi Sankaracharya...

...to ELIMINATE ANY PROBABLE CONFUSIONS.... in the minds of Devotees on the ONLY Paramathma NARAYANA... as per Vedas...

...who bestows grace through different Gods, Forms and Names as per individuals choice and wishes.!

Vedic Religion Hinduism is extolled by Dr. Annie Besant, Dr Max Muller and several other International Scholars too...

....as the Great Religion... UNPARALLEL IN THE WORLD...

...mainly because of such WIDE OPTIONS... provided to cater to the varied individual devotees tastes and choices...

..conforming to the Devotee's own self-assigned Faith, Imagination and LOFTY WISHES.!

....although CONTRADICTORY amongst themselves.!!!
.

---

Kali defeats Shiva
Shiva defeats both Vishnu and Bhrama
Bhrama was cursed for lying about reaching shiva's head
Rama prayed to shiva in ramayana
Parsurama was Shiva bhaktha
krishna prays to shiva in duwapara yuga

--- I have not finished yet :lol2:

Vishnu, bhrama and co could not drink the poison from vasuki, hence shiva helps out
shaivites says shiva created vishnu, bhrama and co
vaishnavites say vishnu created bhramma from his 'pokkuzh'
Maa ji created Shiva, Vishnu and Bhrama.

There was problems between Shaivites and Vaishnavites, so they came to resolve it by saying parvathi was vishnu's sister, hence vishnu became shiva's machaan, so they don't fight.. sssappaaa enna mudiyala :rotfl:

How on earth a Lehman could understand hinduism??? Contradiction at it's utmost level, various stories and myths based ' PERSONAL VIEWS' ... Ultimatley knowbody knows anything and we are all back to square one and will be in sqaure one

....This world exists for you when at one of your five senses are working, else none of these exists for you!

You mind your iontellect is based in half memeory (what you have learnt from your experience) and the rest imagination. THIS IS NOT THE REALITY OF LIFE

Quote:

---

THIS IS NOT THE REALITY OF LIFE

---

If you cannot rely on mind and intellect, what can you rely on?. What is the reality of life then?

Krishna - The greatest devotee of Lord shiva.
Krisna doing Shiva Dhyan


Krishna is one of the greatest devotee of Lord shiva. As per mahabharata, krishna is believed to be the reincarnation of Narayan maharshi, who was also one of the greatest devotee of lord shiva. The Mahabharat and Shaiva puranas clearly says that Krishna was devoted to Lord shiva even in his past lives. Krishna explained 'Siva sahasranama' to yudhistara(Dharmaraja) and also told him how he got the supreme Advaita jnana (nondual knowledge) because of lord shiva. It was explained in Anushasan parva of mahabharat.

"
Rudra bhakthya thu krishnena jagat vyaptham mahathmana,
Tham prasadhya thadha devam bhadaryam kila bharatha.

Arthath priya harathwam cha sarva lokeshu vai yadhaa,
Prapthavaaneva rajendra suvarnaakshan maheswaraath."


Meaning:

The great Lord Krishna, due to his devotion to Supreme lord Rudra,Has spread all over the universe, Oh Bharatha, Oh king of kings,After making Lord Shiva pleased by his penance in Bhadrinath,He has attained the state of being more dear,Than all the worlds and all aspects of knowledge.

"
Yuge yuge thu krushnena thoshitho vai maheswara,
Bhakthya paramaya chaiva prathi sruthwa mahatmana. "

Meaning :
Lord Maheshwara becomes pleased and happy yugas after yugas, by this Krishna who is devotee of Lord Shiva.

Krishna got several boons from lord shiva even in his past life as Narayana muni.

Bhagavatam explicitly states that Krsna worshiped Lord Shiva .

"ekadā deva-yātrāyāḿ
gopālā jāta-kautukāḥ
anobhir anaḍud-yuktaiḥ
prayayus te 'mbikā-vanam ( SB 10.34.1)
"
Meaning:
One day Gopala along with his mates, eager to take a trip to worship Lord Śiva, traveled by bullock carts to the Ambikā forest ( SB 10.34.1)

"
tatra snātvā sarasvatyāḿ
devaḿ paśu-patiḿ vibhum
ānarcur arhaṇair bhaktyā
devīḿ ca ṇṛpate 'mbikām ( SB 10.34.2)"

"O King, after arriving there, Krsna along with his mates bathed in the Sarasvatī River and then devotedly worshiped with various paraphernalia the All powerful and all pervading Godhead Lord Paśupati [devaḿ paśu-patiḿ vibhum] and his consort, goddess Ambikā. ( SB 10.34.2)



Krishna and Gopis Worshiping Lord Shiva.

Lord Rama Worshiping the supreme lord Shiva.


Shiva Blessing Vishnu by giving Sudarshana Chakra as a Boon for his devotion towards him.


Krsna taking blessings from Supreme Lord Shiva
.

Sudhama sir

Pls explain the above posting !

Paramashivan Sir,

I think it is well known that these contradictions do exist. How to resolve this? I personally perceive nothing wrong in fervently believing in a particular way or sect. One might therefore claim a different interpretation. I guess it is only because of this acceptance of different interpretations that Hinduism has survived in its form today, as a religion which has preserved many of the archaic mythological forms without much change.

Of course, enforcing it upon someone else wouldn't be appropriate.

Love and Light.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

Krishna - The greatest devotee of Lord shiva.
Krisna doing Shiva Dhyan
.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anbu_kathir

Paramashivan Sir,

I think it is well known that these contradictions do exist. How to resolve this? I personally perceive nothing wrong in fervently believing in a particular way or sect. One might therefore claim a different interpretation. I guess it is only because of this acceptance of different interpretations that Hinduism has survived in its form today, as a religion which has preserved many of the archaic mythological forms without much change.

Of course, enforcing it upon someone else wouldn't be appropriate.

Love and Light.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

Krishna - The greatest devotee of Lord shiva.
Krisna doing Shiva Dhyan
.

---

---

Exactly this is what ISKON do 'Brain wash' this is what i was trying to address.. but never worked, instead it all went every where

BTW, I am not a sir (certainly not old enough to me any way :lol2: )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pradheep

Quote:

---

THIS IS NOT THE REALITY OF LIFE

---

If you cannot rely on mind and intellect, what can you rely on?. What is the reality of life then?

---

Intellect has limitations even to GREATEST scholars :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

Exactly this is what ISKON do 'Brain wash' this is what i was trying to address.. but never worked, instead it all went every where

---

ISKCON has its share of sensible people. But as an organization, its ideals are a bit misplaced as you said; one more group which claims to have the 'only' way.. :sigh2:. There ain't much one can do about it. That "all paths lead to the same end" is true can be seen only from within when one has expanded beyond one's own ideologies. Argumentative responses from outside are generally either ignored or are dealt with using violence in thought, word or/and deed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

BTW, I am not a sir (certainly not old enough to me any way :lol2: )

---

Ok, Sir :P.

Love and Light.

.


HUMANITARIAN Outlook.... by BROAD-MINDED Soul-pursuit... Vital.!

Mankind being the Supreme-birth on Earth...

..born to exploit the Maximum benefit of Earthly birth... as ENRICHED MAN...


Human-Values, Social-sense and Unified advancement towards One COMMON God...


...by means of Super-Wisdom and HEARTY SPIRIT of Unity in Diversity


... must be cultivated within Ourselves... through SELF-REALISATION.!


.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PARAMASHIVAN

Sudhama sir

Pls explain the above posting !

---

Dear PARAMASHIVA,

Please do not drag me into UNNECESSARY Discussions of PAROCHIAL Outlook and Controversy.

I am not interested to discuss nor argue... as to who is the PARAMATHMA... Supreme God as per Vedas...

...even though I can prove categorically.

Because such discussions on a high Subject of Spiritualism... is not only FUTILE... but also will only result in mutual animosity...

...as well as the unhealthy divisive entities amongst Freinds.

In brief.. I point out... if You believe Lord Siva is the Paramathma Supreme God... Well, you can believe so...

...I will neither object to your PERSONAL FAITH... even if it is contrary to Vedic Truth.

Similarly I treat all other Sectarians including the Swaabhavikaa sect... who have Faith in any object like Stone, Tree or Doll.. or any such ordinary substances.

I have already detailed in my previous posting.

How and Why.?

For example if you say..."My Mother is GREAT FOR ME"... and Greater than Your Mother FOR ME...

...I should not object... nor differ

Because for everyone his / her own Mother is Great, Greater and Greatest...

..than the others Mothers.

So is the case for Ones own Mother-Tongue, Motherland, Profession and such other PRIVATE DOMAINS, CONCERNS, AND ATTACHMENTS

In this respect, you can understand what Thamizh-Marhai Thiruvaaymozhi clarifies in a BROAD-MINDED Outlook of Human-Values...

...entirely true to the Vedic-Sense of Universal Humanity.

Anybody who needs more clarification... can refer to Ramanujacharya's public addresses...

...in a NON-RELIGIOUS... HUMANITARIAN Outlook.... Mankind being the Supreme-birth on Earth...

..born to exploit the Maximum benefit of Earthly birth...

...by means of Human-Values, Social-Spirit and Unified advancement towards One God... by Unity in Diversities.

Rather if You believe that God Siva showers the Grace to you upto your ENTIRE SATISFACTIOJN...

...as you are entitled to expect from the so called Super-power PROTECTOR God...

..well, others can have nothing to comment on it

But please remember... others of various other Hindu sects too... RESERVE THEIR PERSONAL RIGHTS to follow their own individual path of choice...

...to similarly believe on Muruga, Kali, Soorya, Vinayaka, Iyappa, Vishnu, or even a Doll or Rock as the Ones Protector...

...by ones own individual perception and capability of understanding

...as it may be convincing to them as appropriate for the respective individual

[html:f58217facd]
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...eb07/Kali2.jpg
[/html:f58217facd]In my last posting, You might have seen the Picture of Bengali Idols depicting Kali defeating Lord Siva...

..and the worst of all is...

...Kali is tramping over Lord Siva.!.

Even in spite of strong objections and vociferous disputes from Saivites... it could not improve the situation...

..because the Bengali Sakthas claimed, based on DEVI-BHAGAWATHAM...

..."Look You Saivites have made a Purana at Chidambaram that Our Kali was defeated by Lord Siva.

That was the previous part of the True puranas.

And ours is the subsequent part of Purana... which declares our calm-natured Mother Durga... forced under PROVOCATION...

....became the angered Kali and took revenge on Siva...

..for Siva's UNDUE EXPLOITATION of Womanhood in Durga-devi." said the Bengali Sakthas.

Such disputes went on for centuries...

...marring the purpose and Spirit of Festivals, the Social congregations in a totally unique atmosphere of Soul-sense....

... backed by Unity and SOCIAL-DEVOTION...

Similar depictions of opposite senses killing the peaceful atmosphere during Festivals on Siva and Kali.... lead into frequent Public quarrels too.

Ultimately Sri Krishna Chaithanya intervened and settled the issue...

..by declaring that everyone sect can celebrate the Festivals... conforming to the respective Gurus preaching and Sectarian Puranas of ones own faith.

Can You or anyone convince the Bengali Sakthas better.?

I have already briefly clarified on this point.

If you need more analytical truth... please go through my Serial Article titled as...

Thamizh-Marhai Thiruvaaymozhi... under our Hub Magazines..

http://www.mayyam.com/unicode/cgi-bi...feb10/?t=13920

... on the subject of Vedic-sense in Tamil...

Vedas clearly and undoubtedly declare that GOD IS ONE...

...HE IS NARAYANA... the Paramathma

...All other Gods are His various manifestations... in different Forms and Names.

So whichever God, One worships... such prayers reach the Ultimate Paramathma Narayana only...

...who showers His Grace through the respective God... on whom the Devotee reposes faith... and prays.

Quote:

---

From Vedas


Narayana Param Brahma thathvam Narayana Paraha...

Narayana Paro Jyothih Athman Narayana Paraha...

Narayana Paro Dhyaatha Dhyanam Narayana Paraha

---

.
.Meaning:

Narayana is the ONLY Paramathma, the Supreme God for all Gods.

Narayana is the PARANJOTHI... the Supreme Jothi Paramathma for all Athmas to meditate.(because the Paramathma Narayana renders Grace-Powers to all other Gods)

Narayana is the Supreme Protector to whom all the Devotees are bound to believe and worship.!

.

Quote:

---

Intellect has limitations even to GREATEST scholars

---

Intellect has its limitations, but can solve the contrdictions that arise in the beleif system of the devotees. It is belief systems that causes wars between religions and within the various sects of a religion. Belief holds good only for the person, not for the whole lot. Belief's are subject to change , because the mind changes. What an individual or a group of indivudals believed can changed over time.

Wheareas Truth is Truth and does not depend on the belief of the mind. What you are bringing out is the belief of people and not the Truth. To do justice to the topic, we should discuss the Truth behind the "Belief"S and not the beleif's, because they are only subjective and changes over time. Truth is eternal and so it is Dharma and that is why our tradition is Sanadhana Dharma, the eternal truth and not eternal beleif's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sudhaama

.

Narayana is the ONLY Paramathma, the Supreme God for all Gods.

Narayana is the PARANJOTHI... the Supreme Jothi Paramathma for all Athmas to meditate.(because the Paramathma Narayana renders Grace-Powers to all other Gods)

Narayana is the Supreme Protector to whom all the Devotees are bound to believe and worship.!

.

---

Again One's one belief and perception , just like mine :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pradheep

Intellect has its limitations, but can solve the contrdictions that arise in the beleif system of the devotees. It is belief systems that causes wars between religions and within the various sects of a religion. Belief holds good only for the person, not for the whole lot. Belief's are subject to change , because the mind changes. What an individual or a group of indivudals believed can changed over time.

---

thank you, this what i was trying to express, but i may have used words wrongly :oops:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pradheep

Wheareas Truth is Truth and does not depend on the belief of the mind.

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Thanks you sir, this is what i was trying to tell you before, where you have misunderstood me, I was saying 'Mind will grasp any crap from the environment in it's memory and build up any kind of imagination and assume that is the reality (beliefs like you said ), in fact these things which are in your mind are illsuion (Maya) subject to changes according the circumstances you may face, this mind is never be in a constant and it is like a variable, always changing from one state to another (Maya). This is NOT the truth about LIFE

In my view creator (GOD) created the whole universe From living things to and panja bootha's for survival (know one yet knows the reason behind GOD'S creation and will never know), humans made it complicated, highly complexed , developed certain emotions , made all the suffereing in the world (but the blame is blamed on GOD) and created various beliefs , faiths as a way of consolidation for their suffering... in the people mind, they need GOD's service when they are sad or in needy, know one wants or even think about the creator, when they are happy 'the word 'GOD' does not exist for them! This clearly indicates 99.9% seek GOD when they in trouble... which means GOD is like a Friend to them who is JUST there to help you but nothing else,....these are all human characters

In my view creator (GOD) created the whole universe From living things to and panja bootha's for survival (know one yet knows the reason behind

When the mind sees a creation then it creates a creator behind the creator, because Mind's nature is to "Create". The mind then puts the creator to be be bigger than the creation. Then out of fear, the mind then thinks that it should please the creator otherwise it will be punished. From that point on it creates a whole series of belief system. When two members in that lineage has difference of opinion then they create two different sections in that belief system. this is the trend we see in all religions.

We see this in Hinduism, where people argue about Shiva and Vishnu, who is greater. Well , without understanding that both Shiva and Vishnu symbolism are both the creation of the mind, there will be always arguements and wars on that. If one understands that Shiva and Vishnu are the various Cosmic laws (Dharma) on one's own self, the differences becomes mute.

I was invited to a college last week to talk to graduate students doing comparative world religions. My talk was on Hinduism. One of the question from a student was, what happens to me when I dont believe in Jesus is my savior. I answered it is only a belief and not a fact. In India a group tells me that If I dont believe in Krishna, then I be doomed. So says all religions. Now as a layman, I will be confused, which to believe?.

One thing is true is that from stand point of each religions, all of us are to be doomed. That is from Christian point of view, all Hindu's Buddhists, Jews, Muslims will be doomed. From Hindu point of view all christians, muslims, buddhists, jews will be doomed, if they dont believe in Krishna. From Muslim poinjt of views all others except they will be doomed. The same way each religious group thinks, except them all others will be doomed. In essence, everyone will be doomed.

Here in the forum hub we have friends who thinks if they dont believe in Shiva they will be doomed. The other one thinks if they dont believe in Vishnu they will be doomed.

The problem is that, the believers dont understand that belief is only a belief of the mind and not a Truth. My talk was then what is the difference between Truth and belief. How to know the Truth. The talk was based on Upanishads.

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Originally Posted by pradheep

When the mind sees a creation then it creates a creator behind the creator, because Mind's nature is to "Create". The mind then puts the creator to be be bigger than the creation. Then out of fear, the mind then thinks that it should please the creator otherwise it will be punished. From that point on it creates a whole series of belief system. When two members in that lineage has difference of opinion then they create two different sections in that belief system. this is the trend we see in all religions.

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Do you mean to say all mythologies and religions come out of fear?

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Originally Posted by pradeep

Well , without understanding that both Shiva and Vishnu symbolism are both the creation of the mind, there will be always arguements and wars on that. If one understands that Shiva and Vishnu are the various Cosmic laws (Dharma) on one's own self, the differences becomes mute.

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Super!

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I was invited to a college last week to talk to graduate students doing comparative world religions.

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If I may ask, where was this? Could you give some more details?

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That is from Christian point of view, all Hindu's Buddhists, Jews, Muslims will be doomed. From Hindu point of view all christians, muslims, buddhists, jews will be doomed, if they dont believe in Krishna.

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Got your point of course, but 'doomed' is a bit harsh for this list, I would say. Many hindus believe hinduism is 'superior' to other religious systems. However the others need not be 'doomed', they might probably evolve to a 'higher' birth that finally incorporates Hinduism :D. Also, there are subdivisions in each of these religions who have understand the metaphorical and non-literal interpretations of their own religions and therefore let go of this us-against-them attitude.

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Originally Posted by pradeep

The problem is that, the believers dont understand that belief is only a belief of the mind and not a Truth. My talk was then what is the difference between Truth and belief. How to know the Truth. The talk was based on Upanishads.

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Cool!

Love and Light.

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Originally Posted by anbu_kathir

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Originally Posted by pradheep

When the mind sees a creation then it creates a creator behind the creator, because Mind's nature is to "Create". The mind then puts the creator to be be bigger than the creation. Then out of fear, the mind then thinks that it should please the creator otherwise it will be punished. From that point on it creates a whole series of belief system. When two members in that lineage has difference of opinion then they create two different sections in that belief system. this is the trend we see in all religions.

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Do you mean to say all mythologies and religions come out of fear?

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possibly and possibly not , cos an unknown entity (in this cas GOD) often creates fear,confusion, Imagination and expectation because the entity is unknown!

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Originally Posted by pradeep

Well , without understanding that both Shiva and Vishnu symbolism are both the creation of the mind,

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Thank you , thank you.. This is what I keep on saying about the mind.. combination of memory (what you have learnt from your 5 senses is stored as memory the rest is imagination based upon your memory, i.e what you have known)

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Originally Posted by pradeep

If one understands that Shiva and Vishnu are the various Cosmic laws (Dharma) on one's own self, the differences becomes mute.

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I know this very well, but i was just getting annoyed but fanatical missionising by ISCKON and some believers vasihnavites who simply make a 'Mockery' of everthing else by the views they believe in!

Another 'Major' sect which was excellent act missionising people is Christianity...

any way like I said, everything exsists in your mind! I have been brought as a ISwara believer, even though intellectually I am able to relate to every other religion, faiths etc and respect them, I follow this tradition that is my personal thing :)

If we believe in something according to our convenience or based on our cultural influences, then there is a natural conflict the moment we come in contact with someone who believes in something else.

That is why some of the worst crimes in history have been committed in the name of God.

Essentially, belief systems stem from a basic problem that people are not sincere enough to admit that they do not know. If this sincerity to simply admit, “What I know, I know; what I do not know, I do not know” comes to us, then there is really no room for conflict.

There are two kinds of religions in the world. One seeks the benevolence of God while the other encourages one to manifest one’s own divinity. One teaches prayer, another seeks to manifest prayerfulness. Yoga Patanjali says it beautifully: When one knows how to be truly prayerful, prayer is not the means to reach God, but God is only the means so that we can pray.

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Do you mean to say all mythologies and religions come out of fear?

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Dear Ak,
The nucleus of any religious organization is spiritual (Truth). Surrounding this Nucleus an organization grows with its own beliefs, rituals, customs, mythology, music, dance, arts, architecture, laws and rules etc etc.
The organization generates fear in the mind of the devotees to accept the Organization, while trying to feed the Spiritual Truth . It is like our mothers who create fear of a monster (poochandi) to the child resisting to eat food. Mother's objective is to make the rssisting child should food. Good intention. But the child carries a mental impression of a monster later creating problem to the same mother itself refusing to move around the house itself. Religious organizations does this same way.

Mythologies are not the product of fear. The Spiritual truth is not easy to understand to people who gives too much importance to mind. So mythologies are created to convey the Spiritual message in a palatable form to the mind.


Hinduism is a religion and "Sanatana Dharma" is its spiritual core. Unlike others religions where the the organization's belief is given more importance than the core, in Hinduism, teachers over ages came and rescued when the organization overthrows the core spirituality. This does not happen in other religions leading to fundamentalism.

In Hinduism there is no founder, not based on one single book but on many. Even the four vedas the foundation of Sanatana Dharma is composed of one thousand two hundred eighty recensions.

Just one single Rig veda is composed by not one person but by 356 Rishis, which includes female's also. So one could understand how great a society was, were both males and females contributed to the knowledge. isnt this like our science books. Any page we open in a physics text books is contributed not by one person, but hundreds of scientists. This is how sanatana Dharma is.

So Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma) is not a belief system (like some devotees have), it is a knowledge based way of life to know the highest Truth, that supports everything.

Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev -

Mahashivratri is a night of many possibilities. It is the darkest night of the month. Its very darkness is cause for celebration. Normally, we tend to resist darkness and opt for light. On Shivratri, however, darkness is venerated as the symbol of creation and destruction.

The word Shiva literally means that which is not. That which is, is existence; that which is, is creation. That which is not is Shiva. That which is not means, if you open your eyes and look around, if your vision is for small things, you will see lots of creation. If your vision is really looking for big things, you will see that the biggest presence in existence is a vast emptiness. Just a few spots – which we call galaxies – are noticed, not the vast emptiness that holds. This vastness or unbounded emptiness is Shiva.

When we say Shiva, we are referring to this vast emptiness of existence. It is in the lap of this vast emptiness that all Creation has happened. Our ancient prayers are not about saving yourself, protecting yourself, or about doing better in life. The prayers have always been about ‘Oh lord, destroy me, so that I can become like Yourself.’

So when we say Shivratri, which is the darkest night of the month, it is an opportunity for us to dissolve our limitedness, to experience the unboundedness of the source of Creation, which is the seed in every human being. Shivaratri is an opportunity to bring yourself to that experience of the vast emptiness within every human being, which is the source of all Creation

The mother-son-poochaandi example was bang on, I felt! :).

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Originally Posted by pradheep

The nucleus of any religious organization is spiritual (Truth). Surrounding this Nucleus an organization grows with its own beliefs, rituals, customs, mythology, music, dance, arts, architecture, laws and rules etc etc.

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Rituals (which are actually enactments of the myths) have been existent since the age of Neanderthal man, thats like around 1,00,000 years ago (or more). Even in India, I believe the philosophical treatises of the Upanishads have come only after to the earlier Vedic ritualistic traditions. The Vedic Gods themselves have their prototypes in the Gods of the earliest civilization near what was then called Sumer. While man's inner truth might have been the 'cause' for these myths, the wisdom that comes with the realization of inner truth is not immediately apparent from history, at least until the age of the Upanishads. In my thoughts, therefore, myths actually seem to precede philosophical treatises about Truth/God (not Absolute Truth of course).

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The Spiritual truth is not easy to understand to people who gives too much importance to mind. So mythologies are created to convey the Spiritual message in a palatable form to the mind.

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This might not be the only reason that mythology was 'created' (Myths have been likened to public-dreams in some psychoanalytical treatises in the distant and the recent past.. so 'created' might not be the accurate word here.. 'flowered' might be more precise I feel). One of my favourite authors, Joseph Campbell, used to say that mythology serves four functions : metaphysical/mystical, cosmological, sociological, and pedagogical.

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Originally Posted by [url

http://brainstorm-services.com/wcu-2004/mythology.html[/url]]
Its metaphysical function is to awaken us to the mystery and wonder of creation, to open our minds and our senses to an awareness of the mystical "ground of being," the source of all phenomena. Its cosmological function is to describe the "shape" of the cosmos, the universe, our total world, so that the cosmos and all contained within it become vivid and alive for us, infused with meaning and significance; every corner, every rock, hill, stone, and flower has its place and its meaning in the cosmological scheme which the myth provides. Its sociological function is to pass down "the law," the moral and ethical codes for people of that culture to follow, and which help define that culture and its prevailing social structure. Its pedagogical function is to lead us through particular rites of passage that define the various significant stages of our lives-from dependency to maturity to old age, and finally, to our deaths, the final passage. The rites of passage bring us into harmony with the "ground of being" (a term often used by Joseph Campbell to refer to an unnamed, unspecified universal mystical power) and allow us to make the journey from one stage to another with a sense of comfort and purpose.

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Love and Light.