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MADDY
17th September 2010, 07:36 PM
http://www.indiaglitz.com/channels/tamil/gallery/Events/23554.html

he request people not to call anyone and everyone who do keyboard programming and other programming as composers.......but we get a fair idea, whom he is targetting with the keyword "keyboard" :lol:

best part is "stone faced" yuvan standing at the back :rotfl:

this is what Brangan had to say abt this arguement........i know IR and his fans would never accept this but i found this on spot - i'll give all MIDI softwares, synthesisers to a lesser musician, can he do a song atleast like thaman - forget u1 and AR level.......

http://baradwajrangan.wordpress.com/2009/01/31/between-reviews-the-right-place-the-right-time/#comments


Suresh S: Itís not just the recording. Itís how ARR (and others of his generation) USE the dizzying array of tools available to them. Their vocabulary is completely different from that of earlier composers. Like in the Masakkali song, thereís a periodic flight of violins. Itís not a ďfullĒ string-section sound, in that itís been tempered (tampered?), using technology. And it adds a fantastic, out-of-nowhere (unexpected) texture to the number.

We are seeing now the creation of music using these ďbits and pieces,Ē these technological building blocks ó as opposed to earlier, where the entire composition was envisioned in advance. IMO, they are two completely different ways of creating music and you cannot even begin to compare them. (Of course, you could say you prefer one over the other. That would be your personal taste.)[/tscii:f36077aa5c]

sathya_1979
17th September 2010, 07:39 PM
Same side goal!

raghavendran
17th September 2010, 07:43 PM
why is IR furious wid using keyboard and other stuffs? :confused2:
technology is an added advantage
for ur info guys..kasthuri raja turned music composer wid idhu kadhal varum paruvam starring kiran..wen asked y he has tried his hands in music,he said with todays technology any1 can bcum a MD...avare enne kizhicaru?...
these technologies can b used to the fullest by only people who knows to use them :P

MADDY
17th September 2010, 07:44 PM
these technologies can b used to the fullest by only people who knows to use them :P

and who have a music knowledge

ajaybaskar
17th September 2010, 07:45 PM
Yeah.. Otherwise Steve Jobs and Bill Gates would've been the best composers..

sathya_1979
17th September 2010, 07:46 PM
Ab, neengaLum naanum kooda aayirukkalaam :lol:

ajaybaskar
17th September 2010, 07:49 PM
Although I hate IR's speeches and his indirect/direct attacks on ARR, nothing prevents me from praying for his health, both physical and mental.

Bala (Karthik)
17th September 2010, 07:54 PM
[tscii:56e0d27160]


Like in the Masakkali song, thereís a periodic flight of violins. Itís not a ďfullĒ string-section sound, in that itís been tempered (tampered?), using technology. And it adds a fantastic, out-of-nowhere (unexpected) texture to the number.

Idha thaan naanum modha thadava Masakkali ketta podhu inga sonnen. Plum solra madhiri varalaaru mukkiyam, vilambaramum mukkiyam... :razz:[/tscii:56e0d27160]

ajaybaskar
17th September 2010, 07:57 PM
Yes.. I do remember.. I was arguing with u for an accordion

MADDY
17th September 2010, 08:03 PM
[tscii:d1985f3995]


Like in the Masakkali song, thereís a periodic flight of violins. Itís not a ďfullĒ string-section sound, in that itís been tempered (tampered?), using technology. And it adds a fantastic, out-of-nowhere (unexpected) texture to the number.

Idha thaan naanum modha thadava Masakkali ketta podhu inga sonnen. Plum solra madhiri varalaaru mukkiyam, vilambaramum mukkiyam... :razz:[/tscii:d1985f3995]

yes i remember and u wondered if there is any other composer who can match range of rahman and raja....

one more interesting piece on this by brangan:


Then, of course, thereís the dizzying panoply of technology thatís taken for granted today, which has helped the recording style become a part of Rahmanís sound. Earlier, the tabla was just a tabla, and a voice was available in just one timbre. But today, a tabla is simply an input for a console that can render it practically unrecognisable, practically a spanking new instrument. The composer can, quite literally, play God Ė and no song need ever sound like an earlier one any more.

taken for granted is a lovely word - people think technology means easy work.....its not :D

Vivasaayi
17th September 2010, 09:39 PM
Im really curious about amitabs comic sense in masala movies, especially the ones remade by rajni...

for eg in scenes like "i talk english etc etc"

was he better as a wholesome entertainer than rajni in those masala movies?

Vivasaayi
17th September 2010, 09:47 PM
Looking at the hegemony that Bachchan had enjoyed in NA (through his influential friends), one has to applaud both M's and Kamal to be right up there in head of the pack! They're that Good!

:clap:

each NA worth 2!

Guna, Sagara sangamam, swathi muthyam, anbe sivam, MMKR , 16 vayadhinile, mahanadi ...ethaanaa

idhellam miss panniyum 3 national awards :clap:

Vivasaayi
17th September 2010, 10:01 PM
best part is "stone faced" yuvan standing at the back :rotfl:



:lol:

Plum
17th September 2010, 10:19 PM
Reg. IR, it is gen gap. Adutha thalaimurainu oNNu varum appO indha thalaimuraigaLum adhai isainu oputhuku maruppinga. You heard it here first. Remember me when you first come up with "but what rahman did was music. Aaj kal to bakwaas chalta hai".

Mental health pathi ellAm - bEsh bEsh. Romba nannA irukku :)
But idhaiyellAm solla ellorukkum urimai irukku. Idhu oru karuthu avlo dhaan

Plum
17th September 2010, 10:25 PM
Imo, to interpret it as against Rahman is a stretch. He probably feels frustrated at having to adopt to the synth-beats-progeamming driven scenario today.
If you are used to using a full piece orchestra at your pomp, having to make music without is bound to rankle. Not that he doesn't know synth - 80slEyE as early as moondram pirai and before he has used it but the paradigm changes now are perhaps too much for him to accept. Indha nilamai Rahmanukkum varum - 10 years aagalaam, 20 years aagalaam but varum. Avar vaaya thorandhu solla maattaar avlo dhaan difference.

But fans ungalkku nichayamaa oru pudhiya paradigm varum ninga othukka maruppinga, andha kaalamum varum. Ninga rahman maadhiri dignified silence appo maindain pandreengalaannu paarka naan uyiroda iruppenaannu theriyala :)

AravindMano
17th September 2010, 10:38 PM
Although I hate IR's speeches and his indirect/direct attacks on ARR, nothing prevents me from praying for his health, both physical and mental.

Thank you. Very kind of you.

Sureshs65
17th September 2010, 11:04 PM
this is what Brangan had to say abt this arguement........i know IR and his fans would never accept this but i found this on spot - i'll give all MIDI softwares, synthesisers to a lesser musician, can he do a song atleast like thaman - forget u1 and AR level.......

http://baradwajrangan.wordpress.com/2009/01/31/between-reviews-the-right-place-the-right-time/#comments



Maddy,

I don't understand this argument of yours. There have been so many MDs in recent times who have been doing this and have been successful to varying degrees in terms of giving 'popular hits'. Harris Jeyaraj, Vijay Anthony, Joshua Sridhar, Mano Murthy, Raghu Dixit, Mani Sharma, Devi SriPrasad down South. SEL, VS, Reshamaiyya, Pritam, Amit Trivedi up North. So who are you challenging? If a guy is already in Thaman range, say Amit Trivedi, he is cannot take part in this challenge. Which essentially means, that only whoever is not good can take part in the challenge and that proves your point !!! I am confused.

If you are saying that it is a level playing field with respect to technology and Rahman has used it better, then I agree. As long the discussion is on technology and its use, it is fine but would that automatically make Rahman or YSR a better 'composer'. If both of them are using lot of free / bought / inbuilt rhythm loops / guitar phrases / samples etc and use the technology to tweak sounds, are they composing? Subbudu, the eminent carnatic music critic, once praised the rhythms in Rahman's songs but lot of them were not 'composed' by Rahman!!! They were 'selected' by him and put into his songs.

The disconnect with Raja's statement for others is the fact that Raja is insisting that people compose everything themselves. Nowadays everyone believes that using samples and loops throughout the song is fine and whether the composer asks for it or not, credit is given to him for everything. But honestly, has the composer himself composed it or is Rahman and YSR much better at 'selecting' the required loops/samples/sounds for their songs? This has a lot to do with how film music criticism is done and on what basis. The fact that Raja made the statement when Yuvan was standing behind him itself shows that Raja was talking as music critic here and not as a music director trying to bring others (especially Rahman) down.

I know lot of Rahman fans will not agree with this but I found this spot on. (Baradwaj Rangan is not the last word on music.)

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?239907

app_engine
17th September 2010, 11:41 PM
From the brangan blog page that people keep quoting here, one thing I found out

:!:

That raj = Plum :-) சரியா?

Nerd
18th September 2010, 12:05 AM
Why don't you start a IR/ARR comparison, so we'll have Maddy come in and entertain you for a few pages? Maddy, no offence! :P
Bay, yayy!!

Forget the 'composer' part I could not understand what Raja was trying to say in other parts of the interview.

Sanjeevi
18th September 2010, 12:28 AM
Suresh65 :)
:lol: to your final touch

Plum
18th September 2010, 07:51 AM
App avar en nerungiya naNbar.

Adhaavadhu "anybody with keyboarf is a composer today"-nu sonnA udanE roadla pora pichaikaaranum apdi keyboard kudutha compose pandraanannu kekkaradhukku peru dhaan vidhandaavaadham.
Raja kaalathula rajavum composer, shankar ganeshum composer adhukkaga rendu perum ore level illai.

ConsistentA raja perumai padaradhu every note of my music is mine-nu. So avarai therindhavargaL can understand where he is coming from and it need not be taken as an indictment on rahman. This style gives rise to reasonably shankarganesh level succesful md's who do little other than use technology - ipdi thaan eduthukkaNum but IR apdingaravar mental apdinnu establish paNNa thudichikitturuvangaLukku idhu aval. AvLO dhaan.

His views are a valid school of thought. You can oppose it but trying to establish it as blabbering just because you don't understand anything other than what you have been exposed to...
Ipdi adhai aaraayama dismiss pandravangalukkum IR-aivan nalla mental health kuduppanaga!

Plum
18th September 2010, 07:56 AM
IdhE vidhandaavaadhathai " indian film music was mere tabla and dholak when I started. I wanted to change it"-kum apply paNNi mental health-ai wish paNNi irukkalaam. Aana paNNa mAttOm. Adhu dhaan paNpattavargaLukkum, humility-nu sollikittu adhai sariyaana muraila follow paNNAdhavangaLukkum difference.
Note: don't bring in rahman's humility which I feel is genuine - I am talking about some fans only who quote his humility and good attributes but are the exact opposite.

Vai chollil veeraradi

Again, let me reiterate, this is on you fans so don't hide behind rahman's good nature by trying to portray it as I am denigrating rahman

Plum
18th September 2010, 08:26 AM
To take a parallel, old time cricketers are bound to look askace at T20. If they issue a generic statement against T20 khichdi batsmen, would you interpret it as against,let's say, gautam gambhir, who is probably the most succesful indian t20 batsman? You wouldn't because you know Gambhir is not just T20 he has proven himself in classical forms too. Instead, you'll think of yousuf pathans.

Rahman is not a mere technology purveyor - idhu ungaLukkum enakkum puriyum bOdhu IR-ku purinjirukkadhunnu nenaikkaradhu evLO periya maathirai...chee...arrogance?
Avar yousuf pathanai solli irukka ninga gautam gambhir ai sollittarnu interpret pannikaringangaren.
(Note: gambhir not equal to rahman, thanks I know that without you pointing out. Analogykaga sonnen. Telling this no to avoid some of you gleefully pointing it out as plum saying rahman only gambhir level)

littlemaster1982
18th September 2010, 08:41 AM
If you are saying that it is a level playing field with respect to technology and Rahman has used it better, then I agree. As long the discussion is on technology and its use, it is fine but would that automatically make Rahman or YSR a better 'composer'. If both of them are using lot of free / bought / inbuilt rhythm loops / guitar phrases / samples etc and use the technology to tweak sounds, are they composing? Subbudu, the eminent carnatic music critic, once praised the rhythms in Rahman's songs but lot of them were not 'composed' by Rahman!!! They were 'selected' by him and put into his songs.


But honestly, has the composer himself composed it or is Rahman and YSR much better at 'selecting' the required loops/samples/sounds for their songs? This has a lot to do with how film music criticism is done and on what basis. The fact that Raja made the statement when Yuvan was standing behind him itself shows that Raja was talking as music critic here and not as a music director trying to bring others (especially Rahman) down.


Are you really saying ARR (or even YSR for that matter) were just *composing* songs entirely with samples and loops? ARR used loops initially as background beats and samples here and there (Akkada, Thenmerku Paruvakattru for ex). Now most of the sounds/beats are *created* by him using synthesiser. If this is not trying to bring down ARR, I don't know what it is.

Plum
18th September 2010, 08:46 AM
LM, edhu bought loop edhu Rahmanoda sondha saagithyamnu ungalukkum enallum therium bodhu, Rajakku theriyaadhA? Why can't be this taken as against any composer predominantnly reliant on loops etc, including Yuvan? Idhai En anti-RahmaniA pArkaringa? Like I said, T20 only batsmanna yousuf pathan dhaane gnaabagam vaRaNum? En gautam gambjirai nenachukaringa?

littlemaster1982
18th September 2010, 08:56 AM
Plum,

I was actually responding to Suresh's post. I don't have any issues with IR's statement. He has been saying this for years, so it's not new or shocking for me.

Plum
18th September 2010, 09:03 AM
Fair enough but idhula shock aaga enna irukku even if you are hearing it for the dirst time.
Let me take another example
Suppose someone asks "how is pritam, anu malik are doing music"
Spb/rahman - diplomatic response
Ir - outburst

Aren't both valid responses with their own internal logic?
Rahman/SPB possibly put "not hurting a fellow composer" over "actual opinion on the said music"
IR possibly is more bothered about his real opinion on the said music than the feelings of pritam and malik.
Both are valid from their pov. I won't deride the diplomatic response because I prefer the honest responsem is it too much to ask the other side to do the same - that is, you may prefer the diplo respone but can't you respect the other approach? (As I see it, even you are saying only "ok I can live with IR's views" as though it were a crime and you are tolerating it)

littlemaster1982
18th September 2010, 09:10 AM
Both are valid from their pov. I won't deride the diplomatic response because I prefer the honest responsem is it too much to ask the other side to do the same - that is, you may prefer the diplo respone but can't you respect the other approach? (As I see it, even you are saying only "ok I can live with IR's views" as though it were a crime and you are tolerating it)

I don't agree with his views or the way he airs them, but I' am not going to loose my sleep over it. I didn't say IR shouldn't have talked like that. There's a difference :)

sathya_1979
18th September 2010, 09:43 AM
Imo, to interpret it as against Rahman is a stretch. He probably feels frustrated at having to adopt to the synth-beats-progeamming driven scenario today.
If you are used to using a full piece orchestra at your pomp, having to make music without is bound to rankle. Not that he doesn't know synth - 80slEyE as early as moondram pirai and before he has used it but the paradigm changes now are perhaps too much for him to accept. Indha nilamai Rahmanukkum varum - 10 years aagalaam, 20 years aagalaam but varum. Avar vaaya thorandhu solla maattaar avlo dhaan difference.

But fans ungalkku nichayamaa oru pudhiya paradigm varum ninga othukka maruppinga, andha kaalamum varum. Ninga rahman maadhiri dignified silence appo maindain pandreengalaannu paarka naan uyiroda iruppenaannu theriyala :)

vEdhaaLathukku eedaana thangaL vidaa muyarchikku vaazhthukkaL :)

sathya_1979
18th September 2010, 09:57 AM
IdhE vidhandaavaadhathai " indian film music was mere tabla and dholak when I started. I wanted to change it"-kum apply paNNi mental health-ai wish paNNi irukkalaam. Aana paNNa mAttOm. Adhu dhaan paNpattavargaLukkum, humility-nu sollikittu adhai sariyaana muraila follow paNNAdhavangaLukkum difference.
Note: don't bring in rahman's humility which I feel is genuine - I am talking about some fans only who quote his humility and good attributes but are the exact opposite.

Vai chollil veeraradi

Again, let me reiterate, this is on you fans so don't hide behind rahman's good nature by trying to portray it as I am denigrating rahman
engaLukku straightaa pEsuvOmnu arasiyal seiyya theriyaadhu, School of thought, College of Culture nu rythmicaa pEsa theriyaadhu, maraimugamaa thittaama thitta theriyaadhu. great music appreciate seiyya mattumdhaan theriyin!

Nobody is hiding here behing anything :) neenga romba kashtappattu establish paNNa try pandreenga, best wishes. And BTW, dnt worry abt ARR's legacy after 20-30 years. We, along with him, will continue to grow and evolve. So, no question of stagnation. He, as he did so far, will cover and master all paradigms. So, he will be front-runner for the shift from one to another. kavalai pada vENdiya avasiyam illai.

Neenga nooru varusham vaazhndhu engaLai ellaam entertain seiyya ellaarayum vellum kodambakkam kabaaleeswararai vENdikkoLgirEn :)

Sureshs65
18th September 2010, 09:58 AM
LM,

Nope. I am not telling that Rahman or YSR or Harris are only using samples / loops to create their songs. All I want to say is samples and loops are being used extensively even today, going by whatever I read on the net. If you are very sure that Rahman and YSR do not use any loops and everything is actually created by them, then I am definitely wrong to accuse them of not composing and should apologise. Somehow I have a feeling it is not true and lot of bought stuff is used (maybe some of it is tweaked a bit). Again I say this based on whatever I have read. Those in the know about samples and loops can enlighten.

I somehow have a feeling that the usage of available loops does happen now as well. One reason, just check this video of 'Hush'. The same or similar start happens for the 'Blue' theme. (I personally hesitated giving the video link since I don't want this to get into the copy / inspiration debate. My only aim is to say that usage of loops happen even now and I am somehow not convinced that all loops / samples used are the 'creations' or 'compositions' of Rahman or YSR. I am sure there are enough videos out there which talk about the loops used by YSR and Harris.)

MADDY
18th September 2010, 09:58 AM
Maddy,

I don't understand this argument of yours. There have been so many MDs in recent times who have been doing this and have been successful to varying degrees in terms of giving 'popular hits'. Harris Jeyaraj, Vijay Anthony, Joshua Sridhar, Mano Murthy, Raghu Dixit, Mani Sharma, Devi SriPrasad down South. SEL, VS, Reshamaiyya, Pritam, Amit Trivedi up North. So who are you challenging? If a guy is already in Thaman range, say Amit Trivedi, he is cannot take part in this challenge. Which essentially means, that only whoever is not good can take part in the challenge and that proves your point !!! I am confused.

out of the MDs u quoted, everyone uses programming and synthesisers - dont u find the difference between a u1, thaman or a pritam?? thats the point im making - not everyone can make good music......


If both of them are using lot of free / bought / inbuilt rhythm loops / guitar phrases / samples etc and use the technology to tweak sounds, are they composing? Subbudu, the eminent carnatic music critic, once praised the rhythms in Rahman's songs but lot of them were not 'composed' by Rahman!!! They were 'selected' by him and put into his songs.

The disconnect with Raja's statement for others is the fact that Raja is insisting that people compose everything themselves. Nowadays everyone believes that using samples and loops throughout the song is fine and whether the composer asks for it or not, credit is given to him for everything. But honestly, has the composer himself composed it or is Rahman and YSR much better at 'selecting' the required loops/samples/sounds for their songs? This has a lot to do with how film music criticism is done and on what basis. The fact that Raja made the statement when Yuvan was standing behind him itself shows that Raja was talking as music critic here and not as a music director trying to bring others (especially Rahman) down.

I know lot of Rahman fans will not agree with this but I found this spot on. (Baradwaj Rangan is not the last word on music.)

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?239907

i think we have gone through this a lot of times......but let me ask u - r u saying that all jathis, rythm structures that raja,MSV used were 100% original and unique?? i dont think so, i have heard lot of trumpet, drums, tabla beats repeating a lot in olden day compositions......infact as brangan nailed it, 90% of IR, MSV songs were composed in aadi thalam which itself proves the point........u cant compare 2 different compositional styles with same parameteres.......

btw, brangan is not the last word on music but so is IR - there is music beyond IR or AR's interpretation......

Plum
18th September 2010, 10:06 AM
Imo, you guys are exhibhiting far more arrogance. Adhaavadhu naanga nenaikkara vazhila pesinaa dhaan sari illaina arrogance apdinnu solringa. Idhula vedhaalam adhu idhunnu vera response. Mathavangalai arrogantnu solradhe arrogance dhaan. Ippo dhaane nee sonnennu kekkalaam. Enakku arroganta irukkaradhu thappu illai but ungalukkz adhu oru periya crime so unga paarvaiyileye ninga thappaana manushanga

Lm I"ll respond to you separtely

MADDY
18th September 2010, 10:07 AM
IdhE vidhandaavaadhathai " indian film music was mere tabla and dholak when I started. I wanted to change it"-kum apply paNNi mental health-ai wish paNNi irukkalaam. Aana paNNa mAttOm. Adhu dhaan paNpattavargaLukkum, humility-nu sollikittu adhai sariyaana muraila follow paNNAdhavangaLukkum difference.
Note: don't bring in rahman's humility which I feel is genuine - I am talking about some fans only who quote his humility and good attributes but are the exact opposite.

Vai chollil veeraradi

Again, let me reiterate, this is on you fans so don't hide behind rahman's good nature by trying to portray it as I am denigrating rahman

Plum, if u remember, many AR fans including were perplexed at his statement abt "dholak/violins" and were not happy abt it.......but u r defending IR's harsh/generalised attack on keyboard composers and synthesisers - there lies the difference......

Plum
18th September 2010, 10:11 AM
IdhE vidhandaavaadhathai " indian film music was mere tabla and dholak when I started. I wanted to change it"-kum apply paNNi mental health-ai wish paNNi irukkalaam. Aana paNNa mAttOm. Adhu dhaan paNpattavargaLukkum, humility-nu sollikittu adhai sariyaana muraila follow paNNAdhavangaLukkum difference.
Note: don't bring in rahman's humility which I feel is genuine - I am talking about some fans only who quote his humility and good attributes but are the exact opposite.

Vai chollil veeraradi

Again, let me reiterate, this is on you fans so don't hide behind rahman's good nature by trying to portray it as I am denigrating rahman
engaLukku straightaa pEsuvOmnu arasiyal seiyya theriyaadhu, School of thought, College of Culture nu rythmicaa pEsa theriyaadhu, maraimugamaa thittaama thitta theriyaadhu. great music appreciate seiyya mattumdhaan theriyin!

Nobody is hiding here behing anything :) neenga romba kashtappattu establish paNNa try pandreenga, best wishes. And BTW, dnt worry abt ARR's legacy after 20-30 years. We, along with him, will continue to grow and evolve. So, no question of stagnation. He, as he did so far, will cover and master all paradigms. So, he will be front-runner for the shift from one to another. kavalai pada vENdiya avasiyam illai.

Neenga nooru varusham vaazhndhu engaLai ellaam entertain seiyya ellaarayum vellum kodambakkam kabaaleeswararai vENdikkoLgirEn :)

Straighta pesina politicsA? School of thought kuda purinjikka maattenna epdi?
Kashta pattu enna establish. I am just presentung an alt pov. Idhai kuda poruthakka mudiyalaina epdi? Naan rahmanai onnum sollave illai aanaalum ivlo veruppai umizharinga. Yaaru arrogant? Yaaru intolerant?

sathya_1979
18th September 2010, 10:12 AM
Imo, you guys are exhibhiting far more arrogance. Adhaavadhu naanga nenaikkara vazhila pesinaa dhaan sari illaina arrogance apdinnu solringa. Idhula vedhaalam adhu idhunnu vera response. Mathavangalai arrogantnu solradhe arrogance dhaan. Ippo dhaane nee sonnennu kekkalaam. Enakku arroganta irukkaradhu thappu illai but ungalukkz adhu oru periya crime so unga paarvaiyileye ninga thappaana manushanga

Lm I"ll respond to you separtely
Plum ji, edhukku ippo tension aagureenga! I equated ur tries with vEdhaaLam. avLodhaan :huh:
You are one of the very few hubbers I respect highly. My intention was never to insult you. BTW, I have the basic manners not to indulge in personal attacks, unlike a few others here.

MADDY
18th September 2010, 10:14 AM
His views are a valid school of thought. You can oppose it but trying to establish it as blabbering just because you don't understand anything other than what you have been exposed to...
Ipdi adhai aaraayama dismiss pandravangalukkum IR-aivan nalla mental health kuduppanaga!

kandippa - yaar illainnu sonna......u r imagining that we consider IR's talks as blabber.....atleast i dont - he has a valid point but its harsh, out-of-place and gross.....and given his "continous" criticisms on AR directly, i have to believe this is also on AR - repeated criticisms are causing anger amongst AR fans.......

Sureshs65
18th September 2010, 10:17 AM
Maddy,

Yes. We have gone through this multiple times. I think we should very clearly agree about what we are debating here. We are not debating about the very basic construction unit like an Adhi Talam or Misra Chapu here nor are we talking about a basic scale like Keeravani here. Because reducing to such basics is equivalent to saying Shakespeare is same as someone who copied because you can find the same English words appearing a lot in his works!!! So we are definitely not debating about Adi Talam levels.

It may be surprising to many if I say that Rahman probably uses more Adhi Talam than Raja. Raja has a lot of penchant for Misra Chapu and Kanda Chapu rhythms. That again is not the point. A tabla playing a simple adi talam pattern is not the loop we are referring to here. We are talking about someone who creates a totally different sounding rhythm on his synthesizers / synth pads whatever. And these are used by multiple people.

I agree with you that the compositional styles are different and it is not fair to compare them. Raja is making this distinction clear. He believes the compositional style which uses lot of borrowed software is not to his liking. I think that is something fair to say as a critic. I am sure there are lot of people who don't like rap and cannot tolerate anything other than rock. The same way, as a composer, Raja looks at the word composer to mean everything should be your own. (Again we are not getting into the very basics here.)

Just extending your argument, the way music criticism should be done nowadays is to see the overall impact that the music director generates and not worry if all the parts belong to him or not. Which is fine but the boundary can be blurred if we only look at the effect and not how it was achieved. We can better evaluate a MD if we do know which parts he borrowed and which parts he 'composed'. I am not opposed to people using loops or samples. All I am saying is 'let me know' :) Then I have a better idea of what I am evaluating. To be honest I am very scared to credit a good idea within a song to Rahman or YSR instantly. I have burnt my hands a couple of times.

In my opinion it boils down to how film music criticism should be done nowadays. Given the new paradigm of liberally using loops / samples and its acceptance, should be go ahead and evaluate the music based on the perceived effects on the listener, its contribution to the movie and not worry about how the composition happened. Should be evaluate the role based on what he has exactly composed vis a vis what he has borrowed and assembled. Therein lies the problem. Raja belongs to composer must compose everything camp. I am sure lot of older MDs belong to this school. Lot of music critics belong to the other school which is more concerned by the final effect. So this clash is inevitable in film music.

sathya_1979
18th September 2010, 10:17 AM
BTW, I just posted (maybe u can call trying to be sarcastic) counter views to ur POV. neenga maththavanga posta vidhandaavaadham nu sollalaam? naan ungaLukku counter kudukka koodaadhaa! Tension aaga vEndiya avasiyam illai.
Arrogance and intolerance is with all, except a very few with true humility like ARR, Rajini, Sachin.

BTW, idhu ellaamE "adhu oru karuththu". Not a fact and nothing to get tensed about.

Cool down saarE!

Plum
18th September 2010, 10:24 AM
IdhE vidhandaavaadhathai " indian film music was mere tabla and dholak when I started. I wanted to change it"-kum apply paNNi mental health-ai wish paNNi irukkalaam. Aana paNNa mAttOm. Adhu dhaan paNpattavargaLukkum, humility-nu sollikittu adhai sariyaana muraila follow paNNAdhavangaLukkum difference.
Note: don't bring in rahman's humility which I feel is genuine - I am talking about some fans only who quote his humility and good attributes but are the exact opposite.

Vai chollil veeraradi

Again, let me reiterate, this is on you fans so don't hide behind rahman's good nature by trying to portray it as I am denigrating rahman

Plum, if u remember, many AR fans including were perplexed at his statement abt "dholak/violins" and were not happy abt it.......but u r defending IR's harsh/generalised attack on keyboard composers and synthesisers - there lies the difference......

You are not getting it maddy. I am all for Rahman making a statement like that. Why should we restrict him from expressing his rea feelings - if he felt that way, bully for him. Andha feeling dhaan made him achieve what he did. Not his humility. Indha feeling illaina oru paradigm changing transformation kondu vara mudiyaadhu. As you said, some of you felt perplexed at this. Naan kekkaren why perplexed? Rahman and Raja need not subscribe to our views of courtesy, arrogance, humility idhai thaan naan modhallerundhe solren.
Maddy, let's get it clear atleast now - it is not about IR vs ARR for me. It is about "public personalityna ipdi courteousA irukkaNum, ipdi thaan pEsaNum" apdinnu namma societyla irukkara restrictions. People like equa and p-r and bala who understood my pov from the beginning can attest to this.

Take SPB, publicA Yuvan pathi kEttA praise thavira oNNum paNNa mAttAr yet he has strong views on the style of music making of Yucan which came out in other ways. I'd like him to actually express that publicly openly so that Yuvan gets exposed publicly and is forced to change(spb's grouse is on attention to pronounciation) but spmkku oru humble image irukku so adhai paNNa mAttAr. PaNNinAlum avarai dinosaurnu thittuvOm.
My constant battle is against such moral policing and prescription of norms of behaviour to celebrities.

Unfortunately, everytime it becomes ir vs arr.

Sureshs65
18th September 2010, 10:25 AM
infact as brangan nailed it, 90% of IR, MSV songs were composed in aadi thalam which itself proves the point

This is an absolutely ridiculous statement to make because of two reasons. One, every song has to have a talam, including the most modern ones. Adi talam has been the standard talam which is used in film music from a very long time. Rahman did not change this aspect. Though I have not analysed it I am more than sure that lot of Rahman's rhythms fall in the adi talam category only.

Second, Raja is probably the one music director who has tried his hand at using various talams and doing lot of permutations and combinations with them.

So if brangan nailed it, he nailed it wrongly :)

Plum
18th September 2010, 10:30 AM
BTW, I just posted (maybe u can call trying to be sarcastic) counter views to ur POV. neenga maththavanga posta vidhandaavaadham nu sollalaam? naan ungaLukku counter kudukka koodaadhaa! Tension aaga vEndiya avasiyam illai.
Arrogance and intolerance is with all, except a very few with true humility like ARR, Rajini, Sachin.

BTW, idhu ellaamE "adhu oru karuththu". Not a fact and nothing to get tensed about.

Cool down saarE!

Sathya, naa tensionA irukkennu en feel pandringa? Porumaiyaa dhaane badhil sollindurukken?

Vidhandaavaadhamnu naan sonnadhu I really feel that way and it is not about people posting here. That is a lifetime crusade for me - the kind of thought process I denounced as vidhandaavaadham is very prevalent in our society. I respect its right to exist but it also pokes its nose in my way trying to denounce my line of thinking often which is my grouse.

" I don't agree with you but I'll defend to death your right to say it" - voltaire.
This is a good thumb rule to use.

MADDY
18th September 2010, 10:33 AM
Just extending your argument, the way music criticism should be done nowadays is to see the overall impact that the music director generates and not worry if all the parts belong to him or not. Which is fine but the boundary can be blurred if we only look at the effect and not how it was achieved. We can better evaluate a MD if we do know which parts he borrowed and which parts he 'composed'. I am not opposed to people using loops or samples. All I am saying is 'let me know' :) Then I have a better idea of what I am evaluating. To be honest I am very scared to credit a good idea within a song to Rahman or YSR instantly. I have burnt my hands a couple of times.

In my opinion it boils down to how film music criticism should be done nowadays. Given the new paradigm of liberally using loops / samples and its acceptance, should be go ahead and evaluate the music based on the perceived effects on the listener, its contribution to the movie and not worry about how the composition happened. Should be evaluate the role based on what he has exactly composed vis a vis what he has borrowed and assembled. Therein lies the problem. Raja belongs to composer must compose everything camp. I am sure lot of older MDs belong to this school. Lot of music critics belong to the other school which is more concerned by the final effect. So this clash is inevitable in film music.

doesent raja himself use loops - does he tell u whether he composed it or someone else composed it for him?? its not again only abt the final effect - construction of the song has differed from olden days - arrangement of loops also plays a important part........i agree with u that critic of a song has varied - but using loops doesent make any song any lesser than olden day songs.......musical skill level reqd is same if not higher nowadays.....

and mind u i still know many rythm structures being similar in olden day songs too.....not just basic thalam level....

but raja isnt making this point - he talks abt people making songs & easy composition through tools and softwares and not to call them composers..............loops is ur own point i believe.....

sathya_1979
18th September 2010, 10:35 AM
Plum, I don't think anybody is trying to influence the way you think or anybody for that matter.

Posts with substance / facts / opnions backed with facts etc have been exchanged between opposite camps with lots of respect.

Yes, ellaarum orE maadhiri think paNNaa appuram yaedhu swaarasyam!

Plum
18th September 2010, 10:36 AM
Infact, if we are not so hung up with humility, and Rahman can expand on "dholak and tabla" and raja can expand on "keyboard" comments, we'll get an enlightening debate.
But reporters are only interested in stirring up controversies.
What pains me is maddy saying that some rahman fans are perplexed at the "dholak and tabla" statement. Come on, he must have had some logic in saying it. Instead of disowing it, shouldn't we encourage him to expand on that theme rather than trap him in a humility image where if he expands on it - even if his real humility is intact in doing so - his humility image will take a beating. The fact that Rahman is trapped in this image is my grouse.
I'd rather Rahman and Raja express themselves freely and that will surely give us much more enlightenment than forcing them to restrict themselves to "god's grace" and "music is ocean; dog's bark has music".

Plum
18th September 2010, 10:43 AM
Plum, I don't think anybody is trying to influence the way you think or anybody for that matter.

Posts with substance / facts / opnions backed with facts etc have been exchanged between opposite camps with lots of respect.

Yes, ellaarum orE maadhiri think paNNaa appuram yaedhu swaarasyam!

Sathya leave ir vs arr. Look at this as "prescribed norms for humility" vs "free expression".
Isn't it a fact that if someone expresses his opinion freely, he is branded as arrogant. Think gautam menon. He may be right or wrong but he has a pov but the moment he says something we don't like to hear, he is branded arrogant. Some people like him have the courage to express but there are others who may privately feel something but publicly don't express it (e.gm) spb w.r.t yuvan.
I say that we should stop crying "arrogance" at the drop of hat so that we can hear more real views than platitudes. Even if some of these views are wrong, the environment that is created will be healthy. This is a broad, societal change that needs to come not just film industry.
But inge paarunga opposite view sonnadhume mental healthlaam kondu varraanga. More than the fact that it is about IR, it is the fact that our default reaction is like that that pains me.

MADDY
18th September 2010, 10:46 AM
Maddy, let's get it clear atleast now - it is not about IR vs ARR for me. It is about "public personalityna ipdi courteousA irukkaNum, ipdi thaan pEsaNum" apdinnu namma societyla irukkara restrictions.

i understand ur point but i dont agree to it..........if AR is attacking IR, ofcourse as a IR fan i would object to it, if IR is attacking AR style then i would be mad at IR for making such a statement.....tell me a good reason, why should i empathise with them and tolerate their statement?? and IR has been a repeat offender - why does he make such harsh statements every chance he gets?? im tired of him......

Plum
18th September 2010, 10:55 AM
Because he has a pov and he believes in it. You will emphasise your beliefs at every opportunity. To see that as an attack on arr is your choice.

This again goes beyond ir vs arr for me. I feel that(going by dholak comments) rahman has a lot more to offer to this debate. If anyone, he can articulate best on behalf of modern composers the validity of this approach but he doesn't and he won't. Why? Because some of you will feel he has moved away from being humble if he does so. That's pathetic, imo. If he felt strongly enough to make the dholak comment, I am sure he feels even more strongly about tools and tech. You are saying neither ir should diss tech nor rahman should diss dholak(actually, that's not what they are doing they are just holding the flag for their school of thought) - I am saying let them both freely express and we'll get to know much more and much better.

Ok, so rahman doesn't say anything publicly, but does he internally agree with ir's school of thought? Obviously not else he will not be doing what he does. Yet, I am being denied the opportunity to hear Rahman's views on this just because he hs to cater to his fans' sensibility on humility. That's a huge loss for me.

ajaybaskar
18th September 2010, 10:56 AM
I love ARR and I dont worship any other personality as I do that man. If somebody bashes him, i will have my tails up and will be the first one to express my displeasure. If 'humility' is one thing that would prevent me from doing that, appadi oru ----- enakku thevai illa.

Rahmanku 'humility' irukku, he chose love over hate enbatharkaaga ellorum appadi iruppargal endru ninappadhu muttaalthanam.

sathya_1979
18th September 2010, 10:58 AM
iniya uLavaaga innaadha kooral
kani iruppakkaai kavarndhdhatrru

yaagaavaaraayinum naa kaakka kaavaakkaal
sOgaappar sollizhukkup pattu

Sureshs65
18th September 2010, 10:59 AM
Maddy,

As I had once indicated earlier, if we know that Raja is using commercial loops in certain songs, they should and will be compared with songs of other MDs who have used commercial loops. No arguments there.

Regarding Raja's compositions, if we take away the small number of copied songs, from whatever I gather from instrumentalists, arrangers, singers, lyricists etc, every note is his own. Infact Sarath, the Malayalam MD goes to say every sub bar is Raja's. So I don't think there is any debate there. In later years if Raja has started using loops / samples then my earlier observation holds.

Loops was just an example I gave. As you say Raja is saying more than that. I think he is referring to people picking up samples from 'werld music', remixing songs, speeding up or slowing down rhythm structures or basic tunes and then assembling them together. Again remember all these apply to his own son as much as it applies to others. So look at him more as a critic who wants people to use their own brains in constructing the basic things.

I can only give this example. Assume you have taken a photograph, then added other photographs (say stock photos) to it and used Photoshop to put together all pictures together and the final picture is terrific to look at. Compare this against someone who has not taken any external photo but has just touched up his own photograph. I think Raja's insistence is saying that you should be be called a photographer only if the photo is yours. In the other case you can be called a Photoshop expert!! That's how I would understand Raja's statement.

sathya_1979
18th September 2010, 11:00 AM
I love ARR and I dont worship any other personality as I do that man. If somebody bashes him, i will have my tails up and will be the first one to express my displeasure. If 'humility' is one thing that would prevent me from doing that, appadi oru ----- enakku thevai illa.

Rahmanku 'humility' irukku, he chose love over hate enbatharkaaga ellorum appadi iruppargal endru ninappadhu muttaalthanam.
+1979, naan idhai yaerkanavE Raavanan release appo solliyirukkEn.

MADDY
18th September 2010, 11:02 AM
Ok, so rahman doesn't say anything publicly, but does he internally agree with ir's school of thought? Obviously not else he will not be doing what he does. Yet, I am being denied the opportunity to hear Rahman's views on this just because he hs to cater to his fans' sensibility on humility. That's a huge loss for me.

yes internally he doesent approve of IR's style of working......but he doesent stop because of his fans i.e us - its the sheer waste of time in explaining the techie way of composing and olden way of composing........he is far too balanced to air his views orally and he doesent have time yaa :lol: - there is no image trapping as u felt........instead he gives it thru music

he didnt acknowledge IR's style hence came roja and 90's style........he didnt ack others sharing his sound, hence his change post 2000's.......he ack u1's style of composing, hence taxi taxis and kannukkul kannais........he keeps giving statements thru his music and not by words.....

Plum
18th September 2010, 11:03 AM
Who prescribed humility? I have been prescribing the exact opposite.

Sathya, those thirukkuraLs represent a school of thought that I am precisely opposed to. Sollizhukku from whom? What is the locus standi of people who dole out such sollizhukku? And why does such sollizhukku have currency in the society? Such sollizhukku doesn't have any currency in my world - people going about judging others for arrogance, sollizhukku and humility are the ones with least validity to dole out such certificates. Idhu dhan ennoda point.

And atleast one person has thrown humility to winds - that's a good start and. Victory for me I believe :)

ajaybaskar
18th September 2010, 11:03 AM
Although I hate IR's speeches and his indirect/direct attacks on ARR, nothing prevents me from praying for his health, both physical and mental.

Thank you. Very kind of you.

Pleasure is always mine, buddy.

Sureshs65
18th September 2010, 11:05 AM
musical skill level reqd is same if not higher nowadays

Fully agree to disagree. Atleast I have not found greater skill level in any modern MD compared to the olden ones, even if we take the final effect into consideration.

MADDY
18th September 2010, 11:05 AM
I can only give this example. Assume you have taken a photograph, then added other photographs (say stock photos) to it and used Photoshop to put together all pictures together and the final picture is terrific to look at. Compare this against someone who has not taken any external photo but has just touched up his own photograph. I think Raja's insistence is saying that you should be be called a photographer only if the photo is yours. In the other case you can be called a Photoshop expert!! That's how I would understand Raja's statement.

nowadays u cant make a photo without photoshop - even a real photographer has to use photoshop.......so photoshop use panravan ellam "vethhu"-nnu solradhu thappu.....

suresh, again raja's point is something else, u r trying to extend it, which i dont agree :D

sathya_1979
18th September 2010, 11:08 AM
Who prescribed humility? I have been prescribing the exact opposite.

Sathya, those thirukkuraLs represent a school of thought that I am precisely opposed to. Sollizhukku from whom? What is the locus standi of people who dole out such sollizhukku? And why does such sollizhukku have currency in the society? Such sollizhukku doesn't have any currency in my world - people going about judging others for arrogance, sollizhukku and humility are the ones with least validity to dole out such certificates. Idhu dhan ennoda point.

And atleast one person has thrown humility to winds - that's a good start and. Victory for me I believe :)
adhudhaan matter, neenga vEra school, naanga vEra school. Syllabus, Subjects, grading system, assessment etc are entirely different (like Business School Vs Tech School. Not CBSE Vs State Board). You acknowledge saying whatever someone feel in the name of openness. We prefer restraint. idhula vettri thOlvi enna irukku?

MADDY
18th September 2010, 11:12 AM
en moonjikku illa sathya moonjikku munnadi oruthar vandhu neenga ellam real engineers illa neenga ellam notes padichhu, tools, google use panra vethhu pasanga-nnu sonna nallava irukku :roll: .......i dont understand that way of expression even if its for real fact :roll:

sathya_1979
18th September 2010, 11:14 AM
en moonjikku illa sathya moonjikku munnadi oruthar vandhu neenga ellam real engineers illa neenga ellam notes padichhu, tools, google use panra vethhu pasanga-nnu sonna nallava irukku :roll: .......i dont understand that way of expression even if its for real fact :roll:
public public :lol: BTW naan padikkara kaalaththula Google ellaam avLovaa illai, all book reference and Lecturer's teaching dhaan.

Enakku vayasaayidichunu nenchaalE azhugayaa varudhu :cry2:

ajaybaskar
18th September 2010, 11:17 AM
Sathya,

What is openness? If i dont like someone's music, style of making music, then i would ignore his music and would refrain myself from attending his felicitation function. That is called openness.

sathya_1979
18th September 2010, 11:19 AM
Sathya,

What is openness? If i dont like someone's music, style of making music, then i would ignore his music and would refrain myself from attending his felicitation function. That is called openness.
neenga vEra! Openness ku definition idhudhaanu solla neenga yaar nu oru pudhu prachanai keLambum. ellaa definitionum naangadhaan solluvOm nu sila pEr varuvaanga! namakku thEvayaa?

Bala (Karthik)
18th September 2010, 11:41 AM
app_engine,
Please request for next tropic :razz:

littlemaster1982
18th September 2010, 11:48 AM
My only aim is to say that usage of loops happen even now and I am somehow not convinced that all loops / samples used are the 'creations' or 'compositions' of Rahman or YSR. I am sure there are enough videos out there which talk about the loops used by YSR and Harris.

Suresh,

As I said earlier, usage of samples and loops in ARR songs are very very less than what he did in his initial days. It's very convenient to club his songs under ready made music, but it is not so in reality. I can't convince you in this regard, and you don't have to take my word for it, either :)

Ramakrishna
18th September 2010, 11:53 AM
humility-nu sollikittu adhai sariyaana muraila follow paNNAdhavangaLukkum difference.



Naanga humble-nu neengaley nenachikkittu paesinaa epdi? We all admire Rahman's humility. Simply, our praise of his humility doesn't make us humble by default, it is not so easy to humble. Atha neenga purinjikaama paesarthu sock-aana vishayamthaan.

Plum
18th September 2010, 11:57 AM
Sathya, En ivLO veRuppu? Edhukku ippO second guessing of who will define openness? So, you would ignore that is your way of doing it. He speaks out that is his way - depends on your preferences, principles, pet hates etc. To feel superior about your way of handling things is what is supreme arrogance - IR has it when he defines ways of making music. So do people who advocate a specific way of public behaviour. There is nothing to stand on a pedestal and denounce others.

IR is not inferior to Rahman as a human being just because of explicit arrogance that he has and Rahman doesn't.

Sureshs65
18th September 2010, 11:57 AM
Maddy,

I probably missed out one word in my photoshop comparison. Please read "Compare this against someone who has not taken any external photo but has just touched up his own photograph using photoshop". Hope that puts things in perspective. On one hand we are talking about touching up your own photograph (composition) using photoshop as against taking other pictures and putting them into your photograph (samples). What Raja means, according to me, is that you can become a 'photographer' without taking a good photo but by using lot of stock photos!!! Just by looking at the number of MDs out there and comparing it with the numbers in yesteryears you can easily understand the music making has become easy. (Again note, I am not saying good music making. The basic music making is definitely easier nowadays. That is what even people like SPB keep saying in their shows.) Raja's point, if I were to extend it, is that you can become a photographer if you have good photoshop skills and do not understand the basics of photography!!

To give you a concrete example, SPB in a recent show said that one MD asked him to sing one place a bit higher. When asked which note he was referring to, the MD could not pin point the note but kept saying, "that place sir, that place". SPB remarked that how come such people without basic knowledge of music can become music directors. Similar sentiments have been expressed by musical personalities who have graced SPB's programs. So this view is not that of Raja alone but seems to be prevalent in the industry among the elder folks. You can say it is a generational gap and those guys will say it is downward trend. As usual the future will have the answers !!!

Sureshs65
18th September 2010, 12:02 PM
Like #twitterbreak now for the #debatebreak :) You got to do some work as well. Next meet pannuvom :)

Plum
18th September 2010, 12:03 PM
humility-nu sollikittu adhai sariyaana muraila follow paNNAdhavangaLukkum difference.



Naanga humble-nu neengaley nenachikkittu paesinaa epdi? We all admire Rahman's humility. Simply, our praise of his humility doesn't make us humble by default, it is not so easy to humble. Atha neenga purinjikaama paesarthu sock-aana vishayamthaan.

As long s you don't use humility as a stick to beat IR with(or the propogation of humility as a virtue), I am not concerned. Ramakrishna, I have observed that you don't do that and in general I see you speaking out against humility norms so nee actually en katchi, thambi :-)

As I said, my crusade is against humility as a virtue and more important than ir vs arr to me. Forget Rahman, before Rahman came into picture, Raja used to be beaten up on humility in comparison to Gangai Amaran :lol: and SPB. So, it is not like I am speaking on this topic only because of comparison with Rahman.
Okvaa ?

(P.s: ippollAm pav bhaji sApdradhillayA? Mumbai indha adi vAngudhu? :( )

Plum
18th September 2010, 12:07 PM
Suresh, from what I infer from your posts, actually, Rahman is not IR's target but some of the modern youths mds lacking in basics. Which is sort of my opinion too but looks like people just cannot accept that and are more happy with interpreting IR's comments as against Rahman and persist with branding him as evil.
If that gives some people satisfaction and peace, so be it.

ajaybaskar
18th September 2010, 12:12 PM
Plumji,

Nobody is beating IR with humility as a stick. My respect for him is taking a beating every time he spits venom on ARR. Thats understandable, right?

If IR is so worried about the usage of electronics in music, why cant he clean his house first and then preach the neighbors? Who is he to decide on whether a musician is to be called a composer or a mere mixer?

If he is so open and true to himself, why did he attend the felicitation of a 'so-called-keyboard player'? Was he deaf then?

sathya_1979
18th September 2010, 12:16 PM
Sathya, En ivLO veRuppu? Edhukku ippO second guessing of who will define openness? So, you would ignore that is your way of doing it. He speaks out that is his way - depends on your preferences, principles, pet hates etc. To feel superior about your way of handling things is what is supreme arrogance - IR has it when he defines ways of making music. So do people who advocate a specific way of public behaviour. There is nothing to stand on a pedestal and denounce others.

IR is not inferior to Rahman as a human being just because of explicit arrogance that he has and Rahman doesn't.

Plum, forget others. Show me one post of mine where I had branded Raja Sir as inferior to ARR, a person with bad attitude etc. "Enakku ARR mattumdhaan pidikkum" is different from "enakku ARR thavira yaarayum pudikkaadhu. I hate them".

My point was the first one, not second. For me it's like Gavaskar and Sachin. I admire and respect Gavaskar for his skill, performance etc. There ends my relation wih Gavaskar. ARR and Sachin are Gods to me. enakku Sachin pudikkum enbadhaalEyE Gavaskarai naan kettavarnu sonnen endru artham illai.

inga yaarum yaarayum ipdidhaan pEsaNum, ipdidhaan nadandhukkaNumnu solla mudiyaadhu. naanum sonnadhillai.

MADDY
18th September 2010, 12:23 PM
IR is not inferior to Rahman as a human being just because of explicit arrogance that he has and Rahman doesn't.

u r confusing shaji, charu, gnani and the whole society which says "enna thimiru baa indha aalukku" with us - we are not judging IR's music based on his personality or IR, the person on this.......we are just peeved at the way IR keeps making remark on AR......im not inclined to believe that the attack he made 2 days back wasnt with AR on mind - im sure he meant AR also (proof: his earlier remarks on AR and his line of thinking) and the fact that only AR and HJ in current gen can do their own programming with synth.......adhu thappa illaya-ngradhu engalakku mukkiyam illa - whether its against AR or not is what we are all concerned abt.......lets agree to disagree on this point.....

Sarna
18th September 2010, 12:25 PM
app_engine,
Please request for next tropic :razz:

yeah :oops:

sathya_1979
18th September 2010, 12:25 PM
Plum, let's keep aside this fan thingy for a while. Enakku oru vishayam mattum explain paNNunga.

I read that Raja Sir told something in these lines (not exact words):
ippo irukkara situation naan cinemaavukku varumbOdhu irundhirundhaa, naan vandhirukkavE maatEn.

idhu uNmaiyaa?

If he is so unhappy with the trend in cine world today, what's the logic behind sticking to it? naan idhai oru saraasari manidhanaaga kEtkirEn. He can concentrate on giving everlasting master-pieces like NBW, HTNI, Thiruvaasagam etc right?

Or are his thoughts like "ellarum kuppai, naan mattumdhaan idhai clean seiyya pOraattam nadathikkoNdirukkirEn" and hence the anger.

For a man of his stature, talent and accomplishments his views are very important to music world to take it to the right path. He had taught a lot (discipline, commitment etc). adhai pakkuvamaa sonnaa nalladhunudhaan naan ninaikkirEn.

Sanjeevi
18th September 2010, 12:28 PM
"Enakku ARR mattumdhaan pidikkum" is different from "enakku ARR thavira yaarayum pudikkaadhu. I hate them".


:lol:

Rendukkum 6 vithyasam kandupudippavargalukku oru kodi parisu

j/k

sathya_1979
18th September 2010, 12:30 PM
"Enakku ARR mattumdhaan pidikkum" is different from "enakku ARR thavira yaarayum pudikkaadhu. I hate them".


:lol:

Rendukkum 6 vithyasam kandupudippavargalukku oru kodi parisu

j/k
andha aLavukku en kitta vasadhi illeeng :lol:

Sureshs65
18th September 2010, 12:48 PM
"Enakku ARR mattumdhaan pidikkum" is different from "enakku ARR thavira yaarayum pudikkaadhu. I hate them".


:lol:

Rendukkum 6 vithyasam kandupudippavargalukku oru kodi parisu

j/k
andha aLavukku en kitta vasadhi illeeng :lol:

adha Sanjeevi kuduparunga. udane unga badila potu pasisai tatti sellungal :lol:

sathya_1979
18th September 2010, 12:52 PM
"Enakku ARR mattumdhaan pidikkum" is different from "enakku ARR thavira yaarayum pudikkaadhu. I hate them".


:lol:

Rendukkum 6 vithyasam kandupudippavargalukku oru kodi parisu

j/k
andha aLavukku en kitta vasadhi illeeng :lol:

adha Sanjeevi kuduparunga. udane unga badila potu pasisai tatti sellungal :lol:
enakku coffee pudikkumnu sonnaa, tea oru kedudhal tharum baanam nu naan solgiren endru artham seidhu koLLa vEndaam. Enakku ARR pudikkum enbadharkku orE meaningdhaan - enakku ARR pudikkum.

Sureshs65
18th September 2010, 12:55 PM
I read that Raja Sir told something in these lines (not exact words):
ippo irukkara situation naan cinemaavukku varumbOdhu irundhirundhaa, naan vandhirukkavE maatEn.

idhu uNmaiyaa?



Sathya,

This is a good question so I postponed some of my work to reply to this :) (I can hear people saying, "We thought your only work is to come and argue here" :)

My interpretation is: Raja came to Madras with only his musical knowledge. He had no clue about technology and such. I think he is saying that if a person were to have only musical knowledge and no technology knowledge he cannot survive in this atmosphere. Which I think is true. So if he were to interpolate the situation to when he came in, he sees that he would have been able to enter this industry. Even Guitar Prasanna once made a comment that Raja was one of the few who kept talking about music and asking him if he has composed some counterpoints etc whereas most of the others were busy reading the manuals. Raja knows as much as we do that this trend is irreversible. He probably feels frustrated that a person with good software and technical knowledge will get more valued than a person with musical knowledge.

Ofcourse this is _my_ interpretation. We have to ask Raja what he actually meant. So when can visit him and have this talk :lol:

Sureshs65
18th September 2010, 12:56 PM
Sathya,

5 more differences before you get that oru kodi from Sanjeev :lol:

Just kidding. I fully understand and appreciate your point of view.

sathya_1979
18th September 2010, 01:06 PM
I read that Raja Sir told something in these lines (not exact words):
ippo irukkara situation naan cinemaavukku varumbOdhu irundhirundhaa, naan vandhirukkavE maatEn.

idhu uNmaiyaa?



Sathya,

This is a good question so I postponed some of my work to reply to this :) (I can hear people saying, "We thought your only work is to come and argue here" :)

My interpretation is: Raja came to Madras with only his musical knowledge. He had no clue about technology and such. I think he is saying that if a person were to have only musical knowledge and no technology knowledge he cannot survive in this atmosphere. Which I think is true. So if he were to interpolate the situation to when he came in, he sees that he would have been able to enter this industry. Even Guitar Prasanna once made a comment that Raja was one of the few who kept talking about music and asking him if he has composed some counterpoints etc whereas most of the others were busy reading the manuals. Raja knows as much as we do that this trend is irreversible. He probably feels frustrated that a person with good software and technical knowledge will get more valued than a person with musical knowledge.

Ofcourse this is _my_ interpretation. We have to ask Raja what he actually meant. So when can visit him and have this talk :lol:
Thanks Suresh Sir for the explanation. But, IMO technology is only a supplement and luxury. People cannot survive with only technical skills. They need to understand how the system works and the requirements. Reading "Java for dummies" don't make one a good Java programer.

When companies find ways to re-use artifacts for avoiding working from scratch and maximize output (WHEREVER NECESSARY) we call it innovation and value-add and not copy-paste work.

Also, when Raja sir entered the field, he did not have the luxury of technology. Despite such constraints what he had achieved was himalayan accomplishments. adhukkaaga technology use seivadhu thappunnu solradhu enakku sariyaa padala. people use it according to their comfort. indha leveldhaan correctnu edhuvume illai. illayaa?

sathya_1979
18th September 2010, 01:17 PM
yes, you can say that music is an art form and cannot be equated to productivity factor of the corporates. Buying tools legally, customizing them using one's own creativity and using them only when necessary, giving due credit etc are ethical way of working in any environment. Just different style from others.

Sureshs65
18th September 2010, 01:40 PM
Sathya,

As I said earlier, newer paradigms of music making are also making music criticism look at itself. So different schools of thoughts are emerging. Raja probably belongs to the older school of thought. I think he is not against technology but only against "only technology" and less of musical knowledge. I guess this debate will continue for some more time till people get an hang of how to evaluate modern music. (Ofcourse this debate on no bearing on the popular taste.) I had given a photographic example since photography is going through a similar debate. How much of 'Photoshopping' can a photographer do and still be called a good photographer? Where is this dividing line from you being a photoshop specialist and you being a good photographer. Answers haven't been found yet. In short, we have to just take Raja's statement as one point of view in this argument. I can understand his point of view and I also understand other point of views also exist.

Plum
18th September 2010, 02:13 PM
IR is not inferior to Rahman as a human being just because of explicit arrogance that he has and Rahman doesn't.

u r confusing shaji, charu, gnani and the whole society which says "enna thimiru baa indha aalukku" with us - we are not judging IR's music based on his personality or IR, the person on this.......we are just peeved at the way IR keeps making remark on AR......im not inclined to believe that the attack he made 2 days back wasnt with AR on mind - im sure he meant AR also (proof: his earlier remarks on AR and his line of thinking) and the fact that only AR and HJ in current gen can do their own programming with synth.......adhu thappa illaya-ngradhu engalakku mukkiyam illa - whether its against AR or not is what we are all concerned abt.......lets agree to disagree on this point.....

How can someone deride the current style of music making without meaning the same on Yuvan? Ange pinnaadi Yuvan ninnu kitturndhaarunnu peyaranja maadhirinnu ninga dhaane sonninga. Do you think IR condemns ARR and condones Yuvan. If yes, aren't you really saying in effect that IR is stupid?
In effect what you are arguing is that IR has personal hatred for Rahman and these statements are designed to hurt Rahman. Which doesn't add up to me.
Why would IR do that?Otoh, if you look at it as a musical philosophy thing, it makes sense because someone like IR is likely to think at that level only.
To me, the attempts to simplify this to jealousy and personal hatred of Rahman by IR is complete disservice to the man. It is a continuation of the image of IR propogated by GV-KB and other vested interests

Sarna
18th September 2010, 02:19 PM
How can someone deride the current style of music making without meaning the same on Yuvan?

U1 is IR son, so ok. but why at ARR ? apdinu ARR fans kEkkuraanga..... naan illa :yessir:

Plum
18th September 2010, 02:27 PM
Sathya,

As I said earlier, newer paradigms of music making are also making music criticism look at itself. So different schools of thoughts are emerging. Raja probably belongs to the older school of thought. I think he is not against technology but only against "only technology" and less of musical knowledge. I guess this debate will continue for some more time till people get an hang of how to evaluate modern music. (Ofcourse this debate on no bearing on the popular taste.) I had given a photographic example since photography is going through a similar debate. How much of 'Photoshopping' can a photographer do and still be called a good photographer? Where is this dividing line from you being a photoshop specialist and you being a good photographer. Answers haven't been found yet. In short, we have to just take Raja's statement as one point of view in this argument. I can understand his point of view and I also understand other point of views also exist.

This is beautifully put, Suresh. If people understand this, there is nothing to debate :-)

What I want to understand is what is that Raja critics want to say by interpreting his statement as "against use of any technology in any proportion" or "simply to put down Rahman"?
What is the final point you are making? You are saying that you don't mean that IR is an inferior human being. Then what is the point you are trying to make? That he should stop deriding "music making using tech". Adhuvum illainu solringa? If so, why?
Enna solla varreengannu theLivA sollunga?

ajaybaskar
18th September 2010, 02:38 PM
Plum,

Pls check my previous post on the same thread..

Plum
18th September 2010, 02:45 PM
How can someone deride the current style of music making without meaning the same on Yuvan?

U1 is IR son, so ok. but why at ARR ? apdinu ARR fans kEkkuraanga..... naan illa :yessir:

I am saying it is at no one in particular. It is a principle/philosophy level rant.

Adhukku dhaan kettEn "rahmanai personalA thittaraar adhanaala ir oru inferior human being"-nu solringalaannu. Adhuvum illaingaraanga. Appo enna dhaan prachnai. Enna dhaan solla varraanga?

Plum
18th September 2010, 02:48 PM
Ajay, we are going in rounds. I want to understand the specific grouse. If you say that you think it is a personal attack on Rahman, what is it that you want to say out of it? There has to be some conclusion right? The unsaid thing here obviously is Ir oru *q"+@@#* but you want to play noble as well and are saying that no you aren't accusing IR of anything. Appo why are you hurt?

I am not getting a consistent stand from you guys.

ajaybaskar
18th September 2010, 02:54 PM
Plum,

I have already put it straight. If any Tom, Dick or Harry bashes ARR, i feel like i myself being offended. If u think that IR meant all the young composers in general and not one particular human being, sorry, i am refusing to believe that.

If u r asking the reason behind IR's acts, I dont have an answer. It requires a psychiatrist's services..

Last but not least, I am not trying to be noble. Maddy and other non IR fans know my language when I refer to IR. But, considering the fact that I may be banned for usage of certain words in a public forum like hub, I keep mum.. Thats all.. :)

Plum
18th September 2010, 02:55 PM
Bottom line is what ir critics are trying to say out of this. Let me start putting the chargesheet on IR. Complete it and then we can have a proper debate.

Accused: ilaiyaraja alias rasiah
Crime: multiple statements deriding use of technology in music; deriding the use of technology
Code violated: this is an indirect attack on Rahman
Now, what? What is it that you want to say out of this?
Possibiliy 1: Raja is an inferior human being. Ruled out by the prosecution already
Possibility 2: technology in music is not a bad thing. This is clearly been accepted as a pov. Again, if Raja doesn't subscribe to that, how does that become a specific anti-arr statement? Explain.
Possibility 3: we don't want raja to keep saying this. Again, ruledout by you all "magnanimously". You attribute this to his mental health and have made some nice complmentary statements on him.
Possibility #4: something else
So what exactly is the conclusion you want to draw?

Plum
18th September 2010, 03:09 PM
Refusng to believe that IR made this statement at a general level, imo, is unfair to the man and his consistent views on music from the beginning. Again, I understand ajay is not really applying thought to this and doesn't want to(and he clearly states that he doesn't know why ir is making the sztatement) - it is simply a fan-ly reaction. I understand that. But I'd like people who'd like their hate or stand to be rational - maybe LM - to think hard why he makes that statement. It can only be general or specifically against one person. To believe the latter really requires a ghetto mentality which I hope we aren't drawing ourselves into.

Because, ajay, you say you don't know the reasons for ir's statements but you are sure that it is because he wanted to insult Rahman. I am not saying this to sound clever - this happens when we react emotionally.

Puliyan_Biryani
18th September 2010, 03:10 PM
I am saying it is at no one in particular. It is a principle/philosophy level rant.
This seems the most plausible answer.

andha kaalathu 10th is greater than indha kaalathu BE-nu periyavanga perumai peethikittu iruppaanga. naanum ennoda peran pethi-nga time-la, avangakitta "naan ellaam andha kaalathu BE, it is greater than today's PhD"-nudhaan solluven. avaravar vaazhndha kaalamum adhan nigazhvugalum seyalgalumdhaan ariyadhu periyadhu endru kooruvadhu podhu iyalbu. adharkaaga oru manidhanai kutram saatuvadhu thavarenbadhu ennudaiya karuthu.

PS: Music pathiyellaam enakku perusa theriyaadhu. adhanaaladhaan simple-a 10th, BE, PhD-nu example eduthukitten. Apologies if somebody is offended.

Plum
18th September 2010, 03:16 PM
Plum,

I have already put it straight. If any Tom, Dick or Harry bashes ARR, i feel like i myself being offended. If u think that IR meant all the young composers in general and not one particular human being, sorry, i am refusing to believe that.

If u r asking the reason behind IR's acts, I dont have an answer. It requires a psychiatrist's services..

Last but not least, I am not trying to be noble. Maddy and other non IR fans know my language when I refer to IR. But, considering the fact that I may be banned for usage of certain words in a public forum like hub, I keep mum.. Thats all.. :)

Fine, you are consciously choosing hate, then.

Plum
18th September 2010, 03:21 PM
And I presume the bit about you praying for IR's health was insincere, then? Or is it like. " Oh God, plese let that **#@+#* IR live long" or "kadavuLE, andha IR *:;#@+*!? *#+@# nallA irundhu tholaikkattum"

Puliyan_Biryani
18th September 2010, 03:30 PM
Oh and BTB, one urimai advice for YSR (since I am his fan): naina-na appadidhaan nai nai-nu edhunaa sollinu iruppaanga. nee onniyum kandukkaama un route-la po. edhunaa maatharen keetharen-nu irukkuradhai keduthudaadha :D

Disclaimer: Not an attack on Dads, IR, ARR, YSR, HJ, Beethoven or anybody for that matter. Just a jovial little "Keep going" for YSR. Hope everybody would take it in a comic sense :D

Plum
18th September 2010, 03:42 PM
Feebee, that's a personal attack on many hubbers. Edhuuku andha disclaimer? AdhAvdhu, nAngaLLAm ninga offenselessA solradhai offensiveA eduthukittu kodhichu kondhaLikka koodya fanatics-nu imply pandRiInga apdi thAnE :evil: :lol:

Plum
18th September 2010, 03:43 PM
Orutharai veRukkaNumnA, oruthar solRadhula thappA eduthukkaNumnu mudivu paNNittA epdiyellAm namma yOsippOmgaradhukku ennudiaya previous post oru udhAraNam.

Puliyan_Biryani
18th September 2010, 04:14 PM
Feebee, that's a personal attack on many hubbers. Edhuuku andha disclaimer? AdhAvdhu, nAngaLLAm ninga offenselessA solradhai offensiveA eduthukittu kodhichu kondhaLikka koodya fanatics-nu imply pandRiInga apdi thAnE :evil: :lol:
appadi ellaam edhuvum illeeng. IR nai nai-ngaraarunnu eppadi sollalaamnu neenga saranam,pallavi,vaishanavi-nu edhavadhu pesa aarambicheenganna enakku onnum puriyaadhu. appuram :marundu marundu muzhikkum: smiley onnu pottu innum avamaanappada vendi irukkum. adhukkudhaan andha disclaimer-a pottutta, ivan oru comedy piece-ba ivanukku ellaam oru post waste pannanumaannu paavam paathu vittuduveenga/vittuduvaanga :D

idhukkum oru Disclaimer: Not implying Plum would say as such. Just to avoid any scenario based on all permutations and combinations.

Sarna
18th September 2010, 04:17 PM
saranam,pallavi,vaishanavi

please elobarate :)

Puliyan_Biryani
18th September 2010, 04:59 PM
saranam,pallavi,vaishanavi

please elobarate :)
//ennatha elaborate-u. eppo paathaalum moonjiya thonga pottukittu, Hero-vukku thangachiya, cheva chevannu varume andha Vaishnaviya ungalukku theriyaadhu?

aduthu andha car-a vechurundha soppana sundhari maadhiri edhavadhu kelvi ketteenganna tensan aayiduven :evil://

Ramakrishna
18th September 2010, 05:56 PM
I do not know the entire history of IR's controversial statements (assumed by ARR fans to be against ARR).

I can remember 2 occassions though. Once when he took a dig at Ellaa Pugazhum Iraivanukkey & then the recent keyboard remark. In both these instances, i am inclined to believe that it is specifically against ARR.

Are there any other instances as such? I would like to know.

Plum
18th September 2010, 07:21 PM
Ok I read the report again(those who saw the video clarify if the reportage is accurate). This is what IR has said apparently:
"Mere keyboard playing is not composing".

Now, who is extrapolating that to Rahman? Whoever is doing the extrapolation seems to believe that Rahman does "mere keyboard playing" because IR's statement is talking only about those who are "mere keyboard playing". How do people do the extrapolation? That is what I don't understand. Maybe that is where the established image of IR plays a part. To me, it is either laziness or deliberate misinterpretation or prejudice on the part of the listener to do that extrapolation.

Here is a old time composer presenting a view other than "change is permanent. Accept change as it is". Agree or disagree to that but to try to paint that as a specific burst against a specific person is unwillingness to engage with the thoughts of a person who has earned the right to be taken seriouslyy. The loss is not his.

As I said, the full import of what I say will come over to you guys at some point of your life - this is really a can-be-undersatood-only-when-you-go-through-in-your-life thing. Remember me if and when it occurs to you.

MADDY
18th September 2010, 08:20 PM
plum, its clear dhoodh ka dhoodh, paani ka paani case.........we are not naive enuf to believe that ir made a general statement without ar in mind........history clearly shows this.......period.....

What are we trying to prove - nothing.........what is IR as a person - again we dont care........he is a genius, GOD of music -that remains unchanged......Then what? we are irritated - thats it.......engalakku enna vandhudhu summa IRa thitti - neengalum konjam yosinga

MADDY
18th September 2010, 08:28 PM
there is no extrapolation here - AR is thr torchbearer of synth programming, electronica music in IFM.......INFAct he used to do programming for raja as well........raja used to make similar statements in 90s when AR was the only person doing electronica - people who know history of raja's statements can easily detect this........yes, u can feel otherwise and take solace in it but its a very clear case with no malice from our side

Plum
18th September 2010, 08:33 PM
Ninga kekkaringa what do we gain by thitting IR-nu. Naanum adhE dhaan kEkkarEn what does ir gain by thitting IR-nu. Becuse once you accept that you are calling IR petty. Imo, indha levella ningale benefit of doubt kekkaringa(engalukku enna ir-ai thitti kedaikka pogudhu). I'll grant you that. Ungalukkum enakkume benefit of doubt kedaikarappo, why not for IR? Avar En nammaLa maadhiri normal jealousy levella yOsippArnu nenaikkarInga? Avar level-la adhu En oru philosophical rant A irukka koodadhu?

As you said, Rahman is too busy to argue these verbally. IR is not that busy so rants are comingnE vechuppOm. What I am asking is do you really believe that IR is so stupid to classify ArR as a "mere keyboard player". Without thinking that IR is stupid or petty, you can't think like that. And if you don't, it follows that you can believe that he didn't imply Rahman.

Plum
18th September 2010, 08:53 PM
Talking of solace, if you believe that attributing the statement to imply Rahman gives solace to you, so be it. To me, there is no other reaosn why we need to interpret that way.

SoftSword
19th September 2010, 05:50 AM
plum, :notworthy: for ur pechu thiramai...

release date announce panniyum Endhiran thread mandhamaa oadikittu irukku... orae moochha ingayae thangitta epdi?, vandhu konjam thalli vidunga..

raghavendran
19th September 2010, 08:17 AM
plum, :notworthy: for ur pechu thiramai...

release date announce panniyum Endhiran thread mandhamaa oadikittu irukku... orae moochha ingayae thangitta epdi?, vandhu konjam thalli vidunga..ipdi ayiducha enthiran ode nelamai... :roll:

raghavendran
19th September 2010, 08:19 AM
defenitely IR has attaked AR indirectly many times.idhe none of the IR fans can deny.avarukku gaanda?,poramaya?..idhe avardhan clear pannanum.. :P

Plum
19th September 2010, 09:06 AM
Wonderful contribution raghav. Indha maadhiri aazhndha soindhanaigaL dhaan indha hubku thEvai

ajithfederer
19th September 2010, 09:54 AM
:lol: :lol:

raghavendran
19th September 2010, 02:42 PM
Wonderful contribution raghav. Indha maadhiri aazhndha soindhanaigaL dhaan indha hubku thEvaiungalale pesi theeka mudiyalele....vitrunge.. :P

Puliyan_Biryani
19th September 2010, 02:58 PM
plum, :notworthy: for ur pechu thiramai...

release date announce panniyum Endhiran thread mandhamaa oadikittu irukku... orae moochha ingayae thangitta epdi?, vandhu konjam thalli vidunga..
:shock: Thalaivar padathukkaa ippadi. yaar illainnaalum naan varrenga :D.

Mahen
19th September 2010, 04:34 PM
Ajay,Maddy,Satya ellam free-ya vidunga :) JHS release ayiduchi..Songs rocking..Ellam antha thread-ku vanga, romba silent-ta iruku antha thread :oops:

Vivasaayi
19th September 2010, 05:09 PM
As a genius of Indian Filmi music, IR have rights to take a stand or talk about his own musical idealogy...isnt it?

Just because ARR happens to be among the subset of composers, who uses keyboard and technology stuff..IR shouldnot say what he dislike.

Isnt it too much.....avarukku avlo freedomavadhu kudungappa...

naalaikku ARR can take his own stand and who knows who will be among the opposite subset?

NOV
19th September 2010, 05:18 PM
My take on this issue: People in the field should NEVER comment on their fellow artistes, unless its positive.

This goes to all whether its IR, GVM or any TDH.

When people pass comments, it always reflect on the person passing the comment, never the receipient.

Plum
19th September 2010, 05:51 PM
NOV, that's your view. I can call it "vikramanism". All positive. If someone feels passiontely about something, then they are obliged to say it. Depends on perspective, depends on what you hold dear. If I hold my personal benefit and maintaining good relationships more important, I will not speak out against something that according to my world view is not right. For me, getting a good name for myself is more important. This is one view. The other view is some things are too sacred to sacrifice for maintaining a you-pat-my-back-i-pat-your-back environment. Atleast for some people. They might be wrong or right but they have a pov and that needs to be heard. If platitudes are all you want to hear, then nothing will progress.
I fully respect your vikramanism and I don't say that " people should not practice vikramanism". You have a right to. But all the time, I get the advice about "don't speak anything other than positive". Which means the fascism is from the vikramanists. Vikramanists want to define for others how they ought to speak. There is so muxh violence pent up inside vikramanists that comes out this was as this kind of control freak streak.

(Note: this is a different panchayat to Raj-Rahman. I don't have them in mind when I write this. As I said, my pet battle is against vikramanists trying to impose their world view on others - note, I am not against vikramanismby all means, and I respect your right to practice vikramanism. But pls don't decide what is right or wrong for people who think different from yorurs - that us the highest form of violence and for all your vikramanism, you end up doing something contrary to its objectives.)
Note: doesn't mean rahman practices vikramanism. As maddy observed, he doesn't have tome for debating things and is not interested. I buy that whole and sole but when you extend that to either "why can't ir be like that" or "ir is inferior human being because of this " I can only laugh.

Plum
19th September 2010, 06:01 PM
As a genius of Indian Filmi music, IR have rights to take a stand or talk about his own musical idealogy...isnt it?

Just because ARR happens to be among the subset of composers, who uses keyboard and technology stuff..IR shouldnot say what he dislike.

Isnt it too much.....avarukku avlo freedomavadhu kudungappa...

naalaikku ARR can take his own stand and who knows who will be among the opposite subset?

Vivs, vidunga. It seems to me laymen like us have right to pass half baked judgement on IR without understanding what he is trying to say. The net argument is summarised in raghav's post in this page(first post); we believe ir attacks arr and we don't want to listen to anything that might change our mind. In other words, no meaningful debate on the ideology that IR represents vs is it really impossible to maintain that in modern environment etc is possible here. Only maddy had some points in this direction. For everyone else it has been "ir is attacking arr. We will believe this no matter what". In other words, they don't want any meaningful debate on music or what ir said just want to continue to feel peaceful in the belief that IR is an inferior person. In other words, no meaningful debate is possible with them.

Suresh brought some wonderful points on what could be IR's pov, and some really searching questions on where the average MD of today is going. Maddy, who actually read and ack-ed these - the only one from other side who actually did that - still said he acks all these but he wants to continue believing that Raja attacked only Rahman.
This is my last on this subject here for now - I think I can find bettr forums where a meaningful discussion can be had on IR's concerns and what it implies to TFM. Whether it really is that bad or are there advantages to where the industry is going now.

On humility and the fascism inherent in vikramanism however I will continue to talk for that is my pet subject

NOV
19th September 2010, 06:10 PM
NOV, that's your view. No, its not.
Its simply good manners.

If your views are so noble, you would whisper in the receipients' ears, not wait for an opportunity to spew in public.

Plum, sometimes it better to be silent and withdraw then to support what is undoubtedly a wrong cause.

pinkurippu: I would want you as my lawyer, if I commit murder. :D

Vivasaayi
19th September 2010, 06:21 PM
My take on this issue: People in the field should NEVER comment on their fellow artistes, unless its positive.

This goes to all whether its IR, GVM or any TDH.

When people pass comments, it always reflect on the person passing the comment, never the receipient.

When a person, who is noway directly involved in the creative process of tamil film music and movies like YOU can dictate/order that "One should NEVER comment on fellow artists" - why not a genius like Ilayaraja who has contributed to TFM arguably more than anyone else JUST vent out his anger on the current musical trend?

You(I mean tamil people) want his music, his genius works...but you want him to just shut the **** up and stop him to talk anything he feels about his musical idealogy...

When YOU (NOV) can say an opinion that an artist should never comment on fellow artists...why cant ilayaraja, the artist himself, tell his opinion...

If Ilayaraja should not tell his opinion on the working style of his succesors...then who can?....who is qualified enough to talk abt the present day music industrys working style?

Vivasaayi
19th September 2010, 06:23 PM
NOV, that's your view. No, its not.
Its simply good manners.

If your views are so noble, you would whisper in the receipients' ears, not wait for an opportunity to spew in public.


Here the recipient is everyone who likes to create music...it includes 10 year old kids who learns music....it is meant to be reached to everyone...

NOV
19th September 2010, 06:24 PM
Viv's, you and I have the right to comment, because we are fans.
Commenting on peers is in bad taste.

Vivasaayi
19th September 2010, 06:28 PM
Viv's, you and I have the right to comment, because we are fans.
Commenting on peers is in bad taste.

come on NOV...You want Ilayaraja who has breathed music for most part of his life to stay calm, even if he feels something wrong about the musical trend thats going on..

And also for the sake of being humble...which is important for him? to open his heart about what he feels about the musical trend or to be humble?..

Plum
19th September 2010, 06:28 PM
Ok, tell me what is a wrong cause here. What in your view is wrong with what IR said? Do you see that as an attack on aRR? If so, why and how? More importntly, are you aware of the music industry dynamics that IR is talking about? Or, are you simply going by his image and concluding something?

These are questions that people should really ask themselves - if they want to really think meaningfully about what IR said. Ofcourse, iif you merely want to feel good about abusing him and confirm your prejudices, then yes, don't think. That is your choice. I am glad that there is one man who doesn't care about what the public thinks of him and will put important issues for public debate. Too sad, the public doesn't want to think about these issues.
Afterll, galileo bhoomi suriyanai suthichunu sonnappo siricha kootathin spiritual vamsaavali dhaane naama ellam.

Here's to the death of contrarian spirit in our society :cheers:

Plum
19th September 2010, 06:30 PM
And thanks for the compliment. But I am afraid you will be making a wrong choice. I can't defend murder. If I came cross as convincing here, it is because of the justice in my cause and conviction. Kolai pannittu ennai nambineenganna jailukku dhaan poveenga. I don't know to defend untruth.

sathya_1979
19th September 2010, 06:31 PM
Galileo eppo India vandhu vaana saasthram paththi pesinaar? :confused2:

Plum
19th September 2010, 06:36 PM
Theriyum keppengannu - that is why I said "spiritual descendants" as opposed to "direct descendants".
Nice try, though, sathya. You made me feel clever about pre-empting such queries. If nobody had questioned, I wouldn't have got satisfaction for pre-empting it and inserting the adjective :)

Vivasaayi
19th September 2010, 06:37 PM
I am glad that there is one man who doesn't care about what the public thinks of him and will put important issues for public debate.

:clap:

Infact thats better than being humble.He could very well say all people just wonderful nowayads and get to hear " this guy is a genius and see how humble he is to acknowledge his succesors. He is class apart"..type of comments..

considering the fan following he has, he could very well use sugar coated words and get much more accolades than he does... but he choose to speak what he feels.... :clap:

"ketta per vandhaalum parava illai" - apdinu mnasula pattadha pesuradhu in my opinion is not possible by everyone

sathya_1979
19th September 2010, 06:38 PM
Theriyum keppengannu - that is why I said "spiritual descendants" as opposed to "direct descendants".
Nice try, though, sathya. You made me feel clever about pre-empting such queries. If nobody had questioned, I wouldn't have got satisfaction for pre-empting it and inserting the adjective :)
Not better than your continuous tries sir! BTW, what kind of spirituality we acquired (as per your incorrect guess) from Europe?

NOV
19th September 2010, 06:42 PM
Plum & Vivs, I don't want to go on repeating what I have already said. It is indeed in bad taste and bad manners and the whole world is watching. As I have mentioned earlier, these kind of comments reflect on IR rather than on his intended targets.

Its better to be a fan of the talent than to be of the man (applies to all.)

Have fun. :wave:

Vivasaayi
19th September 2010, 06:45 PM
Plum & Vivs, I don't want to go on repeating what I have already said. It is indeed in bad taste and bad manners and the whole world is watching. As I have mentioned earlier, these kind of comments reflect on IR rather than on his intended targets.

Its better to be a fan of the talent than to be of the man (applies to all.)

Have fun. :wave:

NOV,

Its really indeed in bad taste that you have used IR's words, which is completely related to music, to personally attack him

good work :clap:

:wave:

NOV
19th September 2010, 06:47 PM
And thanks for the compliment. But I am afraid you will be making a wrong choice. I can't defend murder. If I came cross as convincing here, it is because of the justice in my cause and conviction. Kolai pannittu ennai nambineenganna jailukku dhaan poveenga. I don't know to defend untruth.But you are doing brilliantly! :thumbsup:

You seem to be the only person I know who can make a vice a virtue and vice-versa! :2thumbsup:

Seriously Plum, you remind of my debating days when we take on subjects that we don't agree with, but still debate convincingly. :P

And btw, going to jail is better than going to the gallows and so, I still want you as my lawyer. :lol:

Plum
19th September 2010, 06:49 PM
Nov, ungalukku puriyave maattengudhu. :sigh:
Sathya, spiritual descendantnA direct inheritnce thevai illai. Andha phrase endha contextla use pannuvaangannu konjam research pannunga naan enna solrennu puriyum
Btw, nan nice try_nu sonnadhaala adhaiye thruppa solringa. Naan enna solla varennu logicalA dhaan solli irukken, ninga ellaam apdi oru logicum offer pannaama vermna trying to discredit me, except maddy(ironically, considering my history with him). Dhula oru trupthina pannikonga but why don't you pause to think for an instant.

Again, if discrediting me or ir gives you satisfaction, pannikonga but avar sonna pointaiyum konjam yosichu paarunga sila vishayangal puriyum. Atleast, you can be like maddy whose conviction has basis

Plum
19th September 2010, 06:53 PM
And for nov, instead of passig judgement on ir, avar sonnadhula enna problemnu articulate panna mudiyuma? Maattenga. Thirumba thirumba manners, courtesy ivlo dhaan ungalaala solla mudiyum

NOV
19th September 2010, 06:53 PM
:rotfl:
the age old divide and rule
Plum :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :lol:

sathya_1979
19th September 2010, 06:55 PM
Nov, ungalukku puriyave maattengudhu. :sigh:
Sathya, spiritual descendantnA direct inheritnce thevai illai. Andha phrase endha contextla use pannuvaangannu konjam research pannunga naan enna solrennu puriyum
Btw, nan nice try_nu sonnadhaala adhaiye thruppa solringa. Naan enna solla varennu logicalA dhaan solli irukken, ninga ellaam apdi oru logicum offer pannaama vermna trying to discredit me, except maddy(ironically, considering my history with him). Dhula oru trupthina pannikonga but why don't you pause to think for an instant.

Again, if discrediting me or ir gives you satisfaction, pannikonga but avar sonna pointaiyum konjam yosichu paarunga sila vishayangal puriyum. Atleast, you can be like maddy whose conviction has basis
Plum ji! ennoda previous posts and discussions with Suresh paartheenganna ennoda stand-point theLivaa puriyum. When did I tried to discredit you or IR? :huh: unga VIEW la enakku udanpaadu illai. adhaidhaan naan sonnen unga school vEra, enga school vEra nu.

If we are discussing views, preferences, thought process, opinions etc, the chances of argument moving on are very very less. We will go in infinite loop and circles going to square one again and again.

NOV
19th September 2010, 06:56 PM
Plum, if Bush says all Indians are idiots, I am not going to pause and ask why he said so. He may be right, but still its bad manners and not in good taste. :P

sathya_1979
19th September 2010, 06:58 PM
Plum, if Bush says all Indians are idiots, I am not going to pause and ask why he said so. He may be right, but still its bad manners and not in good taste. :P
:twisted: :evil: :x

NOV
19th September 2010, 06:59 PM
Plum, if Bush says all Indians are idiots, I am not going to pause and ask why he said so. He may be right, but still its bad manners and not in good taste. :P
:twisted: :evil: :xThats munjameen taken on Plum.
He may say that Bush is right :roll:

Vivasaayi
19th September 2010, 07:00 PM
Plum, if Bush says all Indians are idiots, I am not going to pause and ask why he said so. He may be right, but still its bad manners and not in good taste. :P

what if bradman says T20/Oneday is not cricket...

NOV
19th September 2010, 07:01 PM
I dont know cricket, thus I am saved :clap:

sathya_1979
19th September 2010, 07:01 PM
engE sellum indha thread! yaaro yaaro solvaaro?
pEsaama ellaa threadayum lock senjittu ellaa matterum ingayE discussion paNNalaam :)

Plum
19th September 2010, 07:02 PM
Nov, maddy and rahman fanslAm divide paNNa mudiyaadhu. Instead of me, why can't you discuss what is specifically wrong with IR's comments from a music industry pov. Let's say that we all agree that IR is a fiend, a low life, etc. If that satisfies you all, Shall we move on to discuss what he said? How many of you want to do that? Suresh's posts will be a good starting point if you want to have a meaningful debate.

Puliyan_Biryani
19th September 2010, 07:04 PM
Plum, if Bush says all Indians are idiots, I am not going to pause and ask why he said so. He may be right, but still its bad manners and not in good taste. :P
Nov, would'nt we even pause for a moment and think what made him say as such?

What if there is a 0.1% chance that he mght be right and we can improve ourselves based on that comment?

adhellaam consider panna venaam, Bush-a naanga madhikkaradhillai, so we(Indians) are happy to be in the well-ngareengala?

prashanth12
19th September 2010, 07:06 PM
Plum, if Bush says all Indians are idiots, I am not going to pause and ask why he said so. He may be right, but still its bad manners and not in good taste. :P

So let's all live in a bubble where no one is allowed to make any criticisms, since it's bad manners. That should work out great.

sathya_1979
19th September 2010, 07:08 PM
Plum, if Bush says all Indians are idiots, I am not going to pause and ask why he said so. He may be right, but still its bad manners and not in good taste. :P
Nov, would'nt we even pause for a moment and think what made him say as such?

What if there is a 0.1% chance that he mght be right and we can improve ourselves based on that comment?

adhellaam consider panna venaam, Bush-a naanga madhikkaradhillai, so we(Indians) are happy to be in the well-ngareengala?
PB, what if Putin says Indians are the most intelligent race in the world, Angela Merkal Says Indians are average, Brown says Indians have an IQ of 65.375?

Plum
19th September 2010, 07:09 PM
Bush saying that is not equal to IR saying this. IR is a veteran in this industry with an enviable record and knolwedge. When he asseses a trend in music industry, you better listen to him. You may conclude he is wrong but do so after trying to understand what he says. Thorumba thirumba avar apdithaan. avar solradhu ellaam rahman mela attacknu pre conclude panninaa nashtam ungalukku dhaan.
Otoh, bush is not an expert on india so I won't take him seriously. Ir whether you like it or not is an expert in music and the dynamics of tfm industry.

NOV
19th September 2010, 07:09 PM
Plum, you don't let go easily do you? :evil:


My take on this issue: People in the field should NEVER comment on their fellow artistes, unless its positive.

This goes to all whether its IR, GVM or any TDH.

When people pass comments, it always reflect on the person passing the comment, never the receipient.

Whether the content of what he said is right or wrong can be debated, and depending of which side of the fence you are, tilll the cows come home. I am not getting into that.

NOV
19th September 2010, 07:11 PM
And this time, a firm :wave: even if people choose to twist what I have said to their convenience. :rotfl3:

:wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:

Plum
19th September 2010, 07:12 PM
If putin talks about russian politics then we have to listen. If he is an indian expert, yes, I'll listen.

Puliyan_Biryani
19th September 2010, 07:16 PM
PB, what if Putin says Indians are the most intelligent race in the world, Angela Merkal Says Indians are average, Brown says Indians have an IQ of 65.375?
Sathya, if somebody says something should we immediately question his credentials and then only evaluate his statements? Sarah Palin solraanganne vachukuvom, enna solla varraanga-nudhaan paapome. If the comments are half-baked and lack conviction then we can defend ourselves and say that the comments were foolish (again we shouldn't say the person is foolish IMO).

Since you like thirukkural, I am quoting one here:
epporuL yaaryaarvaai kEtpinum apporuL
meipporuL kaaNba dhaRivu

Ramakrishna
19th September 2010, 07:23 PM
As a genius of Indian Filmi music, IR have rights to take a stand or talk about his own musical idealogy...isnt it?

Just because ARR happens to be among the subset of composers, who uses keyboard and technology stuff..IR shouldnot say what he dislike.

Isnt it too much.....avarukku avlo freedomavadhu kudungappa...

naalaikku ARR can take his own stand and who knows who will be among the opposite subset?

I don't have a problem with IR's philosophy/stand and IR making his stand public. Certainly not.
Read this again:
"Mere keyboard playing is not composing music. When I did this background score ('Kerala Varma Pazhassi Raja'), I envisioned each shot, the story and how it was going to be executed on screen and felt the music and situation. That is composing... when you create something, the feelings of the director should get translated into the music. This has happened in this ('Kerala Varma Pazhassi Raja')."

"Mere keyboard playing is not composing music." - This line simply sticks out, it definitely looks squeezed in to take a shot at ARR & looks out of place.

Ofcourse, IR has all the rights & freedom in the world to make statements. Unfortunately, what all he says in public is open to comments & criticism if needed.

And someone like IR can definitely express his comments in a better way if he is really concerned about the current musical trend.

venkkiram
19th September 2010, 07:24 PM
இங்க இவ்வளவு நடந்திருக்கா!

Puliyan_Biryani
19th September 2010, 07:32 PM
Read this again:
"Mere keyboard playing is not composing music. When I did this background score ('Kerala Varma Pazhassi Raja'), I envisioned each shot, the story and how it was going to be executed on screen and felt the music and situation. That is composing... when you create something, the feelings of the director should get translated into the music. This has happened in this ('Kerala Varma Pazhassi Raja')."
:shock: Is this the whole thing he said?

Is it right if I understand/interpret it as: (pinnani) isai enbadhu vaathiya karuvigalin satham mattumalla. Director-in ennangalai ulvaangi andha kaatchi amaippai unarndhu andha unarchiyai velikonaruvadhudhaan isai. adhai indha padathil seidhirukkiren.

idhula edhuvum thappu irukkuradha thonalaiye :confused2:

Plum
19th September 2010, 07:46 PM
How can mere keyboard playing be linked to Rahman? Why do you think IR isn't even as intelligent as you to realise that Rahman is not a mere keyboard player? Isn't that arrogant on your part? (You have a right to be arrogant ofcourse). Who is making the link to Rahman from mere kb playing? IR or your sub-conscious?

Vivasaayi
19th September 2010, 07:46 PM
Read this again:
"Mere keyboard playing is not composing music. When I did this background score ('Kerala Varma Pazhassi Raja'), I envisioned each shot, the story and how it was going to be executed on screen and felt the music and situation. That is composing... when you create something, the feelings of the director should get translated into the music. This has happened in this ('Kerala Varma Pazhassi Raja')."
:shock: Is this the whole thing he said?

Is it right if I understand/interpret it as: (pinnani) isai enbadhu vaathiya karuvigalin satham mattumalla. Director-in ennangalai ulvaangi andha kaatchi amaippai unarndhu andha unarchiyai velikonaruvadhudhaan isai. adhai indha padathil seidhirukkiren.

idhula edhuvum thappu irukkuradha thonalaiye :confused2:

now thats interesting..infact puli's interpretation makes more sense as it is an interview on BGM..."chumma vasicha pathadhu...directoroda peelings therinju vasikanum" nu sollirukar... simble!

the word keyboard I think is not used with the intention of what it is perceived to be....you can go ahead and replace it with other non elecronic musical instruments as well..

Ramakrishna
19th September 2010, 08:02 PM
How can mere keyboard playing be linked to Rahman? Why do you think IR isn't even as intelligent as you to realise that Rahman is not a mere keyboard player? Isn't that arrogant on your part? (You have a right to be arrogant ofcourse). Who is making the link to Rahman from mere kb playing? IR or your sub-conscious?

Plum,
I very well know ARR is not merely a keyboard & i wouldn't have been posting here if i had thought like that. I feel that first statement of his was an implicit attack on ARR without really understanding ARR's style of composing. You may call me arrogant, but that is what i honestly feel about it. Mind you, i am not suggesting anything like IR is musically unintelligent. I am simply saying he feels that ARR is a mere keyboard player. Now, i am sure you very well know that ARR shows his keyboard playing skills in public very often, in music videos, concerts etc. It is quite obvious Plum.

Plum
19th September 2010, 08:09 PM
Hmm...shall I link videos of IR playing keyboard?

enna RK, avaru arrogant-nu sonnadhu enakku prachnai illai. Adhu vairamuthu-KB-GV thittamittu seidha prachaaram innum tamizhnaattula popular view. Ipdi Rahmanai verum keyboard player-nu nenaippaarnu sonnA avarai oru muttalnu solraa maadhiri irukku...but if you feel so that is fine. Anyway, do you think that average talent using technology to survive( I mean, not breaking new ground and all but an average musical guy with good tech skills) and flourishing over a musically sound guy who however isn't tech savvy enough - I understand that is evolution but is it healthjy for a music industry.
Don't think Rahman here. Think at the bottom level. The health of an industry is not merely at the top but the bottom must be strong enough. I think IR is concerned about this primarily.

Plum
19th September 2010, 08:22 PM
And I am glad that you aren't apologetic about "being arrogant". Perhaps, it is no coincidence that you have entrepreunerial skills, developed a product and aren't a mere software industry worker ant like the rest of us.(If wha I interpreted from some posts a few months back is right)

Ramakrishna
19th September 2010, 08:24 PM
Hmm...shall I link videos of IR playing keyboard?

Ir ku keyboard play panna theriyaathunu naan sonnenaa?


enna RK, avaru arrogant-nu sonnadhu enakku prachnai illai. Adhu vairamuthu-KB-GV thittamittu seidha prachaaram innum tamizhnaattula popular view. Ipdi Rahmanai verum keyboard player-nu nenaippaarnu sonnA avarai oru muttalnu solraa maadhiri irukku...but if you feel so that is fine. Anyway, do you think that average talent using technology to survive( I mean, not breaking new ground and all but an average musical guy with good tech skills) and flourishing over a musically sound guy who however isn't tech savvy enough - I understand that is evolution but is it healthjy for a music industry.
Don't think Rahman here. Think at the bottom level. The health of an industry is not merely at the top but the bottom must be strong enough. I think IR is concerned about this primarily.

I am actually shocked that you are defending IR here. Yes, i feel IR sounded like a muttaal here. When ARR talked about Tabla, violins etc., in his BBC interview, i was taken aback. It is not that i don't understand his grouse over the old style of composing, but his inability to articulate his views appropriately, constructively made him sound like a muttaal there. The same applies to IR here too, if he really wants to be genuine in his views, he needs to be more elaborate & direct.

Ramakrishna
19th September 2010, 08:27 PM
Perhaps, it is no coincidence that you have entrepreunerial skills, developed a product and aren't a mere software industry worker ant like the rest of us.(If wha I interpreted from some posts a few months back is right)

Your interpretation is only partially right.

Plum
19th September 2010, 08:34 PM
I genuinely understand Rahman's dholak and violin point. I think it is that thought that led him to achieve what he did - in terms of changing the paradigm. So, yes, poorly articulated or not, that is the key note of his philosophy. I am glad he said that because it gives as an useful vignette to understand him and his music. To me, only when I understood this fully that I could appreciate his music fully.

I think we should not hold them to our politeness and articulation standards.

Ramakrishna
19th September 2010, 08:53 PM
Plum,
You may be intelligent enough to understand their real intentions. But, any passionate ARR/IR fan cannot. So, such half-baked statements are bound to give rise to mindless mud-slinging type of arguments, instead of a constructive discussion. Don't you think so?

Ramakrishna
19th September 2010, 09:18 PM
Straightforward-a non-controversial-a ethaavathu sonnaaley namma media kaaranga atha twist panni vera maathiri veliyila kondu varaanga. Appadi irukkumbothu, intha maathiri statements-naala harsh reactions vantha aascharyam illa.

nitu_krishnan
19th September 2010, 09:22 PM
God only knows what IR had in mind when he made that statement. But, for argument sake lets assume that he was hinting at ARR..Granted...

Now all those who think that his speech about ARR was wrong,what is your plan of action ? You will write in your blogs ? keep writing.you have the freedom anyways.
You will post messages in forums like this ? .. keep posting. ....
But by bashing IR, facts dont change. Any amount of writing is not going to mask the truth about present MDs..

Ramakrishna
19th September 2010, 09:24 PM
Yes Nitu,
We have a detailed plan of action sketched out. I will keep you posted, don't worry.

nitu_krishnan
19th September 2010, 09:30 PM
Yes Nitu,
We have a detailed plan of action sketched out. I will keep you posted, don't worry.

Please go ahead....

Nerd
19th September 2010, 09:42 PM
Yes Nitu,
We have a detailed plan of action sketched out. I will keep you posted, don't worry.
:lol:

Plum
19th September 2010, 09:50 PM
In other words, ir nd arr should appeal to the least common denominator. And why are the "passionate" fans so important when they can't make a basic engagement towards the music rather than the personality? Media twists but why do they? Because they have a market in lazy fans who will take the eaay way out and make it a personality clash instead of engaging with the artist's thoughts. Who are these passionate fans? Us. Can we make a pledge to stop reacting passionately and learn to analyse. Yes, we can. Isn't it time we atleast made an effort to change an environment where artists have to hide their real thoughts and offer platitudes, instead? What an enriching environment we'll have if artists don't have to fear a twisting of their words and can freely express. Is it the media responsibility to create that environment? If we ignore such naradhar velais, would the media change. Ofcourse, they would. They'll go where the market is. If the market is for free speech and in-depth analysis, they'll go for that.
I dream..

Ramakrishna
19th September 2010, 10:09 PM
You are right, people need to change their ways of perceiving things. But, it is easier said than done in a huge country like ours.
A much easier change would be the celebrity who gives out statements is more responsible when he does it. I am not saying he should suppress all his real thoughts, he should express them clearly & responsibly.

Plum
19th September 2010, 10:20 PM
Ok, so we return to my pet topic. As a society, we give too much importance to humility and "sounding correct". This is the root of all problems. I guess Rahman made the dholak statement very early in his career. And he probably realised that honest, open statements aren't going to take him anywhere and stopped talking.
Otoh, IR seems to not bother. And let's face it what's the maximum damage - people will bad mouth him, as they are doing here. And he seems to prioritise something other than not getting a bad name, which is putting some important discussions in public domain.
I'd give space for both approaches and will not blame either of them for not being like the other. Today, Rahman can express him and influence through his music and he is doing it. Today, IR doesn't have that influence through his music amonng the common public so perhaps he has to express it through words. Idhu kaala suzharchi. One only hopes the public matures in the next cycle.

Ramakrishna
19th September 2010, 10:36 PM
Even though arrogance/humility doesn't really matter, it is quite natural for people, anywhere in the world, to be attracted to humble/ soft natured celebrities. Forget about celebrities, even at home, children are more affectionate towards their moms than their dads, generally.

SoftSword
20th September 2010, 02:39 AM
plum, :notworthy: for ur pechu thiramai...

release date announce panniyum Endhiran thread mandhamaa oadikittu irukku... orae moochha ingayae thangitta epdi?, vandhu konjam thalli vidunga..ipdi ayiducha enthiran ode nelamai... :roll:

adhu plum avaroda veravaya ellaam indha orae threadla sindharaarenu sonnadhu... :)
endhiran thread ippo warm-upla irukku...
innum rendu naal'la soodu pidikka aarambicha apram oru maasam shutter thorandhae dhaan irukkum...

venkkiram
20th September 2010, 07:29 AM
I guess Rahman made the dholak statement very early in his career. என்னைப் பொறுத்தவரையில் அந்த கருத்து "நச்". ரஹ்மானுக்கு முன், ரஹ்மானுக்கு பின் என வரையறுக்கும் ஒரு கோட்டிற்கும், அந்த கருத்திற்கும் ஏக ஒற்றுமை.

Cinefan
20th September 2010, 11:31 AM
Plum :notworthy:

Hope atleast the hubbers here acknowledge and accept the full import of what you are trying to say.

MADDY
20th September 2010, 12:57 PM
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Putaani Party
Producer: Childrenís Film Society, India
Director: Ramchandra PN
For the novel idea of empowering children to work as a Panchayat to combat alcoholism that destroys their future.

Keshu
Producer: Childrenís Film Society, India
Director: Sivan
For the sensitivity that explores the lonely world of a specially abled child and the inability of adults to recognize the genius in him.

Best Feature Film on National Integration
Delhi 6
Producer: Rakeysh Omprakash Mehra
Director: Rakeysh Omprakash Mehra
For its uncompromising stance towards communal divide and offering a humanistic solution of taking individual responsibility.

Best Film on Other Social Issues
Well Done Abba
Producer: Reliance Big Pictures
Director: Shyam Benegal
A socio-political satire about a common manís fight for justice against an all pervasive corrupt system.

Best Actor
Paa Amitabh Bachchan
For a rare performance that fuses the art and craft of an actor to create a character that lives with you long after the film is over.

Best Actress
Abahoman Anannya Chatterjee
For the exquisite detailing of a complex character through different stages of the professional and personal life of an actress.

Best Supporting Actor
Lahore Farooq Sheikh
For the consummate ease with which he persuades and inspires everyone around him while retaining his integrity and dignity.

Best Supporting Actress
Paa Arundhati Nag
For the restraint with which she conveys strength, compassion and understanding to her daughter, a single mother, bringing up a son stricken with a rare degenerative disease.

Best Child Artist
Pasanga 1. Kishore, 2. Sri Ram
For the spirited performance of a protagonist and an antagonist who are incomplete without each other. The two young shoulders carry the narrative through a delightful journey.

Best Male Playback Singer
Mahanager @ Kolkata Rupam Islam
For the deeply felt emotional resonance and a haunting lilt that evokes the thematic ambience of the film.

Best Female Playback Singer
Houseful ("Boe Jay Shudhu Bish...") Nilanjana Sarkar
For the haunting texture of a voice that blends the melody, words and rhythm.

Best Cinematography
Kutty Srank Cameraman: Anjuli Shukla
Laboratory Processing: Adlabs Films Ltd.
For the breathtaking sweep that captures the magical mystery of a multilayered narrative.

Best Screenplay Screenplay Writer (Original):
Kutty Srank
1. P.F. Mathews
2. Harikrishna Malayalam The mysterious narrative that weaves together multiple perspectives to create a coherent whole, and yet leaves a haunting ambiguity.

Screenplay Writer (Adapted):
Kanasemba Kudureyaneri
1. Gopal Krishan Pai
2. Girish Kasaravalli Kannada For linking the theme of death and its inevitability through a narrative style that presents two versions of the same event, not necessarily in chronological order.

Pasanga Dialogues:
Pandiraj
For the conversational quality with its cutting edge wit and life like freshness.

Best Audiography
Kaminey
Loaction on Sound Recordist: Subash Sahoo
Excellent live sound quality with the right tonal balance, capturing all the ambient sounds.
Keralavarma

Pazhassiraja Sound Designer: Resul Pookutty
For creating an outstanding aural landscape that transports you to a historical era.

Re-recordist of the Final Mixed Track: 3 Idiots
Anup Dev Hindi For the fine amalgamation of different elements of sound to create the right ambience and perspective of the film image.

Best Editing
Abahoman
Arghyakamal Mitra
For a very precise juxtaposition of time and space, allowing every frame to unravel the story with a keen sense of rhythm and pace.

Best Art Direction
Delhi 6
Samir Chanda
For a very convincing match of actual locations with detailed, recreated sets.

Best Costume Design
Kutty Srank
Jayakumar
For capturing the essence of period and characters with the right blend of colour, style and texture.

Best Make-up Artist
Paa
1. Christien Tinsley
2. Dominie Till Hindi
For authentic, detailed creation of a heart-warming character stricken by a fatal disease.

Best Background Music
Keralavarma Pazhassiraja
Ilaiyaraaja
For creating epic grandeur by fusing symphonic orchestration with traditional Indian instrumentation.

Best Lyrics
3 Idiots
("Behti Hawa Sa Tha Woh...") Swanand Kirkire
For the simplicity and depth of feelings conveyed through evocative imagery.

Special Jury Award
Kutty Srank
Keralavarma Pazhassiraja
Kaminey to Sreekar Prasad (Editor)
For his continued pursuance of excellence to the art and craft of editing, covering a range of themes and styles.

Padmapriya (Actress) (Certificate Only) For the range and skill of an actor to portray varied characters in films of different languages.

Best Special Effects
Magadheera
R. Kamal Kannan
For the stunning use of special effects to enhance the visual sweeps of the fantastical story telling.

Best Choreography
Magadheera
("Dheera Dheera...") K Shivashankar Telugu For breath taking energy and innovation.


Best Feature Film in Each of the Language Specified In the Schedule VIII of the Constitution


Best Feature Film in Assamese
Basundhara
Producer: Hiren Bora
Director: Hiren
Bora For dealing with a pressing, contemporary ecological issue with sincerity.

Best Feature Film in Bengali
Abohoman
Producer: Reliance Big Pictures
Director: Rituparno Ghosh
For sheer artistry that blends form and content of a provocative subject.

Best Feature Film in Hindi
Paa
Producer: Amitabh Bachchan Corporation, Sunil Manchanda
Director: R. Balakrishnan
A heart rendering, yet unsentimental portrayal of a family dealing with a tragedy foretold.

Best Feature Film in Kannada
Kanasemba Kudureyaneri
Producer: Basanta Kumar Patil
Director: Girish Kasaravalli
For the departure from linear narrative to unfold the interlinked events in a village and its superstitions.

Best Feature Film in Konkani
Palatadcho Munis
Producer: National Film Development Corporation
Director: Laxmikant Shetgaonkar
For the simplicity and humanism of dealing with a person the world calls insane.

Best Feature Film in Malayalam
Keralavarma Pazhassiraja
Producer: A.M.Gopalan
Director: T.Hariharan
For recreating the life and times of a forgotten and unsung hero who gave the first call of freedom from British rule.

Best Feature Film in Marathi
Natarang
Producer: Zee Entertainment Enterprises Ltd.
Director: Ravindra Harishchandra Jadhav
For depicting the passion of an artiste, who despite social ostracism, political oppression and personal failures, pursues his dream.

Best Feature Film in Tamil
Pasanga
Producer: M. Sasikumar
Director: Pandiraj
For the unconventional, imaginative and energetic joyride of children that is delightful and uplifting.[/tscii:9bb4fb9ddf]

Sanjeevi
20th September 2010, 01:23 PM
Plum, pottu thaakkureenga :thumbsup:

Plum
20th September 2010, 02:30 PM
I guess Rahman made the dholak statement very early in his career. என்னைப் பொறுத்தவரையில் அந்த கருத்து "நச்". ரஹ்மானுக்கு முன், ரஹ்மானுக்கு பின் என வரையறுக்கும் ஒரு கோட்டிற்கும், அந்த கருத்திற்கும் ஏக ஒற்றுமை.

I dont disagree, at all. idhu Rahmanin andharanga uNmai. He was being true to himself when he made that statement. I really appreciate that he made that statement.

As Raja keeps saying, there is a MSV-ku mun, MSV-ku pin - Raja believes that it was MSV who set the pallavi-charanam-interlude format(you can come up with examples for pre-MSV samples of this but Raja keeps crediting MSV for it).

There is ofcourse a IR-ku mun, IR-ku pin. And there is a Rahmanukku mun, Rahmanukku pin, These are all indisputable facts.

And their belief that they have a new paradigm to offer is what sets them apart from others.

Like it or not, TFM will be bookended into MSV-Raja-Rahman eras not KVM-SankarGanesh-VidyasagarYuvanHarris eras.

app_engine
20th September 2010, 05:46 PM
Best feature film in India is 'kutty srank' but the best film in Malayalam is 'pazhassi rAjA'.

idhu eppadi fossible?

Plum
20th September 2010, 05:58 PM
fossible
nIngaLumA? :lol:

kid-glove
20th September 2010, 06:03 PM
Strange rule this, the winner of NA for best film doesn't compete for regional level. Does it mean the best film winner is said to have transcended the 'regional' constrictions? :P

Plum
20th September 2010, 06:05 PM
No, basically, the best regional film awards(all languages) are vengala kiNNams. You dont give a vengala kiNNam to the trophy winner :-)

app_engine
20th September 2010, 06:07 PM
fossible
nIngaLumA? :lol:

:lol:
நீங்க வேற, கவுண்டர் இழை படிச்சுப்படிச்சு ஒரு நாள் தெரியாத்தனமா என் 4 வயசுப்பொண்ணு கிட்ட "சரிங்க ஆஃபீசர்"னு வாய் தவறி சொல்லிப்புட்டேன். She got so thrilled with that expression and insists nowadays that when I agree / try to make peace with her etc that I must use the word "officer" :-)

Plum
20th September 2010, 06:08 PM
Feeyaar pArthA romba sandhOsha paduvAr.

tamizharasan
20th September 2010, 07:24 PM
It is very unfortunate that all arguments end with final touch of IR/ARR fight.

Plum
20th September 2010, 07:30 PM
En Kamal/Rajni fightla dhAn mudiyaNumA ungaLukku? ;-)

sathya_1979
20th September 2010, 07:36 PM
En Kamal/Rajni fightla dhAn mudiyaNumA ungaLukku? ;-)
thalaivarE, neenga thoongavE maatteengaLaa?

Sureshs65
20th September 2010, 08:24 PM
Plum,

If Raja were to read this thread, he will a la 'Boss Engira Baskaran' style hold you close and say, 'nE nanbEndA' :lol:

Agree with you about the freedom of expression for everyone and too much of humbleness policing is bad for everyone. To the artist and their admirers.

ajithfederer
20th September 2010, 08:52 PM
+ Infinity. And that pathetic trend has spread to other sections also.

It is very unfortunate that all arguments end with final touch of IR/ARR fight.

Plum
20th September 2010, 09:25 PM
Af, innum sports sectionai vittu vechurukkom. Sandosha padunga :)

ajithfederer
20th September 2010, 09:28 PM
Ange erkanave vandhachu :).

app_engine
20th September 2010, 11:29 PM
Special Jury Award
...
Padmapriya (Actress) (Certificate Only) For the range and skill of an actor to portray varied characters in films of different languages.


பழசி தவிர வேற என்ன படமெல்லாம் பண்ணிருக்காங்க இவங்க, 2009ல்?

Plum
21st September 2010, 10:55 AM
Was that Cheran movie in 2009? Plus, she did a *standard* movie in Telugu. For Telugu standards, it was supposed to be off-beat - would probably have been a regular family drama in other languages. I think that was also in 2009.

She also did Striker in Hindi playing a marathi(or Konkani?) fisherwoman.

AravindMano
21st September 2010, 11:04 AM
She appeared in Kutty Srank as well.

Plum
21st September 2010, 05:14 PM
EngEyO padichEn

John Abraham given natl award performance in Aashayein


nadandhAlum nadakkum :shivering:

Nerd
19th May 2011, 06:49 PM
Best Indhi film - Do dooni char (well deserved)
Best meesic - VB for Ishqiya (oru paat kooda kettadhillai :oops: )
And then there is Dabangg :hammer:

AravindMano
19th May 2011, 06:58 PM
Do Dooni Char :thumbsup:


Best meesic - VB for Ishqiya (oru paat kooda kettadhillai :oops: )


Neenga adhula kaNdippa 'dil to bachcha hai ji' kEkkaNum.

Nerd
19th May 2011, 07:14 PM
Sure and thanks for the recommendation :-)

raagadevan
19th May 2011, 08:07 PM
58th National Film Awards Winners List:


Best Feature Film: Adaminte Makan Abu (Malayalam)

Indira Gandhi Award For Best Debut Film Of A Director: Baboo Band Baaja (Marathi)

Award For Best Popular Film Providing Wholesome Entertainment: Dabangg (Hindi)

Nargis Dutt Award For Best Feature Film On National Integration: Moner Manush (Bengali)

Best Film On Social Issues: Champions (Marathi)

Best Film On Environment Conservation/Preservation: Bettada Jeeva (Kannada)

Best Children's Film: Hejjegalu (Kannada)

Best Direction: Vetrimaran, Aadukalam (Tamil)

Best Actor: Dhanush, Aadukalam (Tamil) / Salim Kumar, Adaminte Makan Abu (Malayalam)

Best Actress: Mitalee Jagtap Varadkar, Baboo Band Baaja (Marathi) / Saranya Ponvannan, Thenmerkku Paruvakkatru (Tamil)

Best Supporting Actor: J. Thambi Ramaiah, Mynaa (Tamil)

Best Supporting Actress: Sukumari, Namma Gramam (Tamil)

Best Child Artist: Harsh Mayar, I am Kalam (Hindi) / Shantanu Ranganekar and Machindra Gadkar, Champions (Marathi) / Vivek Chabukswar, Baboo Band Baaja (Marathi)

Best Male Playback Singer: Suresh Wadkar, Mee Sindhutai Sapkal (Marathi)

Best Female Playback Singer: Rekha Bhardwaj, Ishqiya (Hindi)

Best Cinematography: Madhu Ambat, Adaminte Makan Abu (Malayalam)

Best Screenplay - Original: Vetrimaran, Aadukalam (Tamil) / Adapted: Anant Mahadevan & Sanjay Pawar, Mee Sindhutai Sapkal (Marathi) / Dialogues: Sanjay Pawar, Mee Sindhutai Sapkal (Marathi)

Best Audiography: Location Sound Recordist: Kaamod Kharade, Ishqiya (Hindi) / Sound Designer: Subhadeep Sengupta, Chitrasutram (Malayalam) / Re-recordist: Debajit Changmai, Ishqiya (Hindi)

Best Editing: T.E. Kishore, Aadukalam (Tamil)

Best Production Design: Sabu Cyril, Endhiran (Tamil)

Best Costune Designer: Indrans Jayan, Namma Gramam (Tamil)

Best Make-Up Artist: Vikram Gaikwad, Moner Manush (Bengali)

Best Music Direction: Music Director (Songs): Vishal Bhardwaj, Ishqiya (Hindi) / Music Director (Background Score): Issak Thomas Kottakapally, Adaminte Makan Abu (Malayalam)

Best Lyrics: Vairamuthu, Thenmerkku Paruvakkatru (Tamil)

Special Jury Award: Mee Sindhutai Sapkal (Marathi)

Best Special Effects: V. Srinivas M Mohan, Enthiran (Tamil)

Best Choreography: Dinesh Kumar, Aadukalam (Tamil)

Best Assamese Film: Jetuka Patar Dare

Best Bengali Film: Ami Aadu

Best Hindi Film: Do Dooni Char

Best Kannada Film: Puttakkana Highway

Best Malayalam Film: Veettilekkulla Vazhi

Best Marathi Film: Mala Aai Vhhaychay

Best Tamil Film: Thenmerkku Paruvakkatru

Best English Film: Memories in March

Special Mention: Bettada Jeeva (Kannada), Aadukalam (Tamil)

raagadevan
24th May 2011, 02:43 AM
"The neighbourhood awards?"

http://www.hindu.com/mp/2011/05/24/stories/2011052450040100.htm