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irir123
23rd January 2009, 06:00 AM
http://sify.com/movies/tamil/fullstory.php?id=14842906

After all this !!

... is planning to do a super hero film Mugamudi., to be directed by Mysskin... Mysskin, who is busy with his Nandalala will finalise the new script after the film is released. The film will have music by AR Rahman ...



Let us hope he doesn't do to ARR what he did to IR by chopping off his gems from the film...

nallaa vandhu vaaikkaraanungappaa IR-ukkunu :banghead:

Enpa, ARR is now a Golden Globe (and a potential Academy Award hero as well), while IR is 'kudhirai ottufying' in TFM with just 2-3 decent albums in recent times!

wat else do u expect from Mysskin with a 35 crore budgeted film ?

As a HCIRF, I ask you - whose fault is it all ?

IR had two great chances after his symphony of 1992:

1. The Italy tour - is there a complete DVD covering that tour available anywhere ? NO! was the tour given coverage using a proper event management company ? NO! are the CDs available anytime online easily ? I have not seen the CD, but tell me, with the kind of importance the tour must have had, was there an attempt to release the CD through a big label ? I doubt of any such attempt

2. 'Tiruvasakam - classical crossover' - for the efforts and the eclectic associations/collaborations with big names like Richard King et al, that went into the making of this album, shouldn't the production issues have been handled by a professional group and released by a decent label ?

NO - it did not happen - today, one cannot get hold of TiS album online ANYWHERE except Amazon.com! do I see TiS albums anywhere in big stores abroad under the World or Crossover Music section ? NO!

Anyone who wants to access information regarding TiS, does so online and they end up at the TiS website, which is so shabbily done, one (who is not familiar with IR) wonders if this album is worth listening to!

Two golden oppurtunities have gone abegging in terms of strategical marketing which could have targeted much bigger/wider audiences and by now, with a decent label, been vying for some awards, at least the TiS album!

the best joke is this - after the TiS release, I emailed Father Jegath Gasper enquiring abt exploring the options of sending TiS for some awards such as the Grammys under some category or the other - the man replies "please go ahead and do what you feel like - the services of committed fans like you are very much needed"!

oh boy, oh boy, he expected IR's fans to go around 'selling' the TiS concept to the Grammy awards committees et al!

so pray tell me, what was the role of Mr.Jegath in the making of TiS and its aftermath, besides giving interviews as if he was imparting divine grace to IR for the album/ouput ? a few unprintable words came to my mind then , but I restrained myself from replying to him then

more relevantly, why does IR associate himself with such supremely unprofessional characters like the one mentioned above, when he should be associating with people who are actually in the music industry ?? and that too, for an album which IR himself claimed to be his most heartfelt contribution ever ??

To top it all, he refuses to release original soundtracks like that of Hey Ram!

As a HCIRF, I ask WHY ? WHY is a genius doing things in such a bafflingly weird fashion none of it makes any logic? is IR so poor that he cannot afford to hire a decent music agency and get the needful done in a professional manner, in a world, where appearances are increasingly more appealing than the real substance ?! is he so confused with his own priorities that he choses to associate with Mr.Jegath, seeking his support for an album like TiS ??

Noone is asking him to sport a goattee or grow hair that reaches his waist, wear jeans and go strutting with an accent - but cant he come out of his shell and do some private albums with his enormous prodigious abilities ?

Everything, I repeat, everything lies with him, and him alone!

lets not blame young upcoming directors like Mysskin who are as much answerable to their financiers as they are, to fans like us!

MumbaiRamki
23rd January 2009, 06:39 AM
irir123,
There was so much mud throwing during release of Thiruvasagam - Fr.Jegath alleged that IR sold teh rights without his permission .

When contacted IR , if he would do similar such works, he replied in negative that some people were trying to gain out of Thiruvasagam and hence this bad experience made him not to consider it again.

I have a huge irritation with Fr.Jegath f his post thiruvasagam activities , but this is not the forum for it !

njv
23rd January 2009, 07:26 AM
-deleted-

irir123
23rd January 2009, 07:43 AM
njv - can you check your PM ?

raagas
23rd January 2009, 07:54 AM
IRIR123

You posted exactly my thoughts.

I still do not understand why a work like Thiruvasakam was released on an obscure label and not on a prominent label such as Sony Music. Ofcourse, the audio company needs to acquire the right, but when a project carrying a big name such as Ilaiyaraaja is properly planned and executed, why wouldnt prominent audio companies line up for rights? The way the album has been planned and executed certainly had hassles, which led to delays and probably Sony backed out.

And all said and done, we only read that 'IR was the first asian to compose/conduct a symphony with RPO'. But we never got to listen to it.

We read (and fortunately heard in the background) that Budapest Philharmonic Orchestra musicians gave standing ovation to Ilaiyaraaja for 'Hey Ram' and also 'Lajja'. But, despite all the merit the scores have got, they were not released and probably they will never be.

Also, there is something called 'Networking' or 'interacting' with World Composers, technicians, producers.. which always opens up newer avenues and opportunities to explore one's own creativity. I dont want to digress but would just like to cite a case in point: Sony Music signed a 3 album contract with ARR and it resulted in VandeMataram, Bombay Dreams and a chinese film, strangely -"Warriors of Heaven & Earth". I am not talking about the merits of the album, but the fact different Types of avenues did crop up.

What IR needs is just that. More of outgoing-ness and even if he already got it, he needs to push up the visibility levels, without compromising on his work.

raagas
23rd January 2009, 08:12 AM
To add further: (I am merely citing an example, please dont convert this into the cliched IR vs.ARR talk..this is purely an example.)

Shekhar Kapur introduced ARR's music to Andrew Lloyd Webber who liked some songs and decided to produce a musical based on those songs, weaving a story around it.Bombay Dreams happened. And Sony, seeing 'increased' market of ARR's music recommended him as composer for Chinese film (the director did not hear of ARR till BD happened) and chinese film happened, with recordings in Czech philharmonic orchestra. These two experiences led ARR to a guy called Christopher Nightingale, who liked his music and was instrumental in roping ARR for 'The Lord of the Rings' musical. Now, again i am not talking or doubting about the merits of albums as this is a wrong platform for it. But it is interesting to see how this man went from place to place and used opportunities. ARR did not knock their doors asking for offers but his music worked and he made new relationships, with musicians, producers which collectively worked for him, within the domain of his talent.

i dont see any reason why IR couldnt do the same, within the domain of his talent. I am not comparing and saying that IR also needs to do this, that blah blah to get same acclaim as ARR did. But IR, within his domain, could have forged relationships in his own way and tapped opportunities. IR also never knocked and neednt knock the doors of anyone. Back in 80s, all Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam films..how did they happen...because of the good word about music which spread and he forged good relationships with certain producers and directors (in all languages) and offers came to him. But he couldnt replicate it beyond South India.
IR has immense talent. He is too reticent about showcasing it. We as fans..cannot just depend on what we read on internet about Budapest orchestra or that single page about RPO. we need the stuff.

ananth222
23rd January 2009, 08:19 AM
When contacted IR , if he would do similar such works, he replied in negative that some people were trying to gain out of Thiruvasagam and hence this bad experience made him not to consider it again.
All the big labels and associated media people are in it for their own gain. Maybe IR doesn't want them to capitalise on his work. But he has to realize that he must live with it to reach a wider audience. IR thinks of reaching a wider audience by pricing CDs at Rs 28. But to reach a global audience he needs the avertising and backing of a big label.

irir123
23rd January 2009, 08:27 AM
ananth222 - you have touched upon a moot point - what does IR really want ?? what are his current career priorities ? everything depends on that!

I find it absolutely confounding that a guy who lives and breathes music and has been doing so for so long, sacrificing and dedicating everything for music, does not have any more aspirations ??

I dont buy that - he must be having/nurturing big dreams even now, but somehow his strange self-imposed restrictions are playing truant with his musical aspirations!

I forgot to mention about "Music Messiah" - it came and went without a trace! even after the reasonable success and having learnt from the debacle surrounding the release of TiS, shdnt MM have been handled a bit more sensibly ?? isnt there something called learning from past errors/mistakes ?

Fliflo
23rd January 2009, 08:53 AM
Guys,

I am seeing a mild agitation seeing Mysskin's news. Some of you seem to be really upset. But let's think this way. On the first place why did Myskkin choose IR for NL? I believe because, for "Nandhala", a theme of emotional idealism, expressing a tenuous relationship between a kid an disabled adult,a place for less dialogues, IR's BGM score is the second leg to support. His choice was apt because none other than IR has the ability to extend far downward the heart through music. Especially, using a BGM to narrate a story for 46 minutes or so is going to be a fantastic watch for eyes and ears. Let's all be eager about that. The confusion is only when we start mixing love with loyalty. Before IR, Myskkin has also used other MDs, which later became commerical hits. Apparently, he seems to go with the movie theme and use the talents availabe around. Absolutely, nothing wrong with that. For the next movie, he might prefer ARR and may request him for some peppy rythms. Like IR experimenting with different instruments, he is experimenting with different themes and MDs. So let's think openly and positively. It is really a shame to all the HCIRF to compare IR's success with ARRs. IR is musical "Bhisma" and comparing with "Abhimanyu" is totally senseless. Awards are good but what is better is the quality of songs. When you think Salangai Oli, what strikes your mind first? The songs or the award. Providing eternal songs are more important for IR than working for awards. IF AN AWARD MISS A GENIUS, IT IS A SHAME ON THE AWARD AND NOT TO THE GENIUS. Because he always is. Besides, IR unlike ARR, seems to be very introvert. I have read stories about many Geniuses that way. If we compare page by page, we're going lead ourselves into more and more frustrations. Let's learn to respect their individuality and appreciate what they are. Remember, in a gross circle of time, each moment is going to pass though it appears real for the moment (Ithuvm Kadanthu Poghum). IR has understood this fact very well (from his interviews). He has reached a stage where he has stopped seeing himself happy to be on the top number(with his son and others). Nevertheless, he has not stopped experimenting yet. With that in mind, let's start behaving like mature and respectable fans.
Ithuvum Kadanthu Poghum :-))

irir123
23rd January 2009, 09:18 AM
Fliflo - ellaam sari thaan - but think abt the efforts that went into an album like TiS and see where the results are! other than the album itself, everything else about TiS was/is absolutely unprofessional

What you are speaking about is the mystical aspect of how we perceive things! no denying that, but if we begin going by that line of thought, why listen to music itself, we might all as well meditate and listen to the internal 'music' that sages and rishis have always spoken about!

ananth222
23rd January 2009, 09:24 AM
Fliflo, all that "emotional bgm" may mean a lot to you and me, but it is nonsense in the commercial world of cinema. the bottom line is that IR is being used as a low budget alternative.
Secondly, we are not (atleast I am not) comparing IR's and ARR's musical capabilities. we are only comparing their marketing and selling skills/associations. In that sense, ARR is the bhishma, and IR is like ekalavya having lost his thumb.

Why all this ruckus? let IR be a sage, as long as he is happy and we can enjoy his music? Well if he gets the recognition and backing he deserves, we the fans can get astounding releases eclipsing TiS. Beethoven's works won't be as popular today if he was broke and playing fiddle at a local pub.

ananth222
23rd January 2009, 09:31 AM
I dont buy that - he must be having/nurturing big dreams even now, but somehow his strange self-imposed restrictions are playing truant with his musical aspirations!no doubt he had great aspirations, to succeed from his humble beginnings to make it big in cinema. he would not have been able to do that if he wasn't able to associate with the right people or didn't know how to sell himself. but he seems to have forgotten that now.

Somehow I feel that IR started as a daring youth, and became a sober old man, completely missing healthy middle-age. imo he should tone down his extreme "devotional" attitude to regain that youth.

irir123
23rd January 2009, 09:35 AM
ananth222 - its our collective selfishness that we want IR to come out with more creative albums! but if IR choses to remain content with what he is doing, then there is nothing either you or me can do about it!

as I said, its entirely upto him - having said that, it still rankles/bothers me deeply that such a fine piece of work as TiS was so badly mishandled by Fr.Jegath and co - manidhargalai ganippadhil andha alavukku koodavaa IRukku mudhirchi illaamal poivittadhu ?

raagas
23rd January 2009, 10:17 AM
No fliflo... ,my points are not abt a particular Mysskin project. or they are not about comparing it ARR's success (about which, i think it is good...). Thats why i specifically said "within IR's music domain". My point is about approach towards making his own music available to one and all, in a more professional manner.Especially when his music has the capability to attract the attention of larger circle (say..the west). I dont mean "He should lobby for it". But he can just do the music in his way and just ensure that it is properly reaching the audience.

Tell me, of what use is the BGM of Hey! Ram? Yes, it suited the film. But how many saw the film?And how many heard the score? and what about Lajja? could he procure the rights of his own work and release it on good label?
Now Ilaiyaraaja is a big name in India. would any music label, shy away from marketing IR's work with good taglines such as "An Authentic Symphony score for OST"? Mind you, we already have something like "Elizabeth - The Golden Age" soundtrack on music stands today, because the music is by ARR and it is available despite the film bombed.

Let me remind another height of unprofessionalism. Tell me the name of track in "How to Name it?", which is set in Maayamaalavagowla raaga? The tracklisting of 'How to name it?' has always been infamously controversial, because they goofed it up. Such a colossal piece of work and no proper track-listing.

His RPO symphony is an achievement. But do we have it? forget a good label..atleast on echo music?

I am an IR fan and i like his music. But it pains to see some of the greatest tracks lying in some cans somewhere.

crajkumar_be
23rd January 2009, 11:33 AM
Nice posts irir and raagas

MrJudge
23rd January 2009, 11:37 AM
What saddens me is that while Yuvan can release his KK,7GRC and PP soundtracks in the CD format, why not Raja? It doesn't matter how big the label should be but they must be released. I think the people surrounded him aren't doing their jobs or afraid to suggest him anything. KR had a plan of opening up an MP3 site to sell Raja's soundtracks online, don't know what happened to that project? I strongly believe either KR/Yuvan should talk to his father and move forward. That is the only way out IMO.

jaiganes
23rd January 2009, 12:26 PM
my thoughts.
Right now whatever be the greatness of raaja, there is a perception that he wont do Rap, hip hop cool mixing and all sorts of new music styles :roll:
He too doesnt want to do this thing. That is why he called up mysskin and asked if his project is on.
A director friend of mine is scouting for a music director for his film and i asked him why not raaja?
The answer is that the subject is not good enough for Raaja;s music
So Raaja for the first time in life is free from doing ' oorgaais and appalams.
Thats a good thing. But he is getting this time when he is 65 +
while others are young and having the energy to go wherever opportunities take them to. So there is no grudge here.
As far as his priorities, I dont care what it might be. It could be even to compose thamizh nursery rhymes doesn;t matter.
Yet some young director from hindi wanted to give him the warner brothers hindi movie SRK to him. why? and did raaja reject that offer - no.
So I feel that we should popularise his volume of work in our own small way and see what comes out of it. More than anything else we need to see that Raaja style of music is never forgotten - for it is a unique way of looking at what is music. In this regard I appreciate what irir is doing right now.

MumbaiRamki
23rd January 2009, 12:33 PM
MumbaiRamki - is IR such a poor judge of people after being in the field for more than 30 years, that he decided to associate with people like Fr.Jegath ??

I just dont get it!

Well , i don't know sir . Im just totally confused with what happend during TiS ( One of ardent fans in US called me then and explained his angush over getting cheated by IR , but then the whole thing is a mess- Yahoo groups as usual closed it without any proper explanation those who gave the money to Tis) ..

He might be a poor judge , his 30 years in field is not in business , but music . Also it depends on JUDGE OF WHAT ?
********
More then HeyRam, Lajja was amaster Piece - its the best i have heard in many many years, wonder why it was not released !!!!!! yes, Raaja lives in his own shell , we can't do anything abt it !!!!

jaiganes
23rd January 2009, 12:58 PM
koootama poi raaja veetula udane katchi aarambingannu sollalaama? ;-)

raja_fan
23rd January 2009, 01:14 PM
Yet some young director from hindi wanted to give him the warner brothers hindi movie SRK to him.


Don't get carried away by names like "Warner Bros" these days.
Nowadays any body who knows he can get 100Rs profit in one project puts his money in it.
So "Warner Bros" does not make SRK any big.

You will soon see "Warner Bros" putting their money in some silly Tamil movies too :)

MumbaiRamki
23rd January 2009, 01:46 PM
raja_fan ,
May be . But they eill ensure good marketing of the movie !

kiru
23rd January 2009, 02:47 PM
Guys..just take it easy..Forget IR for a while, I can give you 10CDs full of Grammy winning songs and one single 'engE nimmadhi angE enakkOr idam vEndum' and I am pretty sure you will take engE nimmadhi any time !! I hope you do get my point.
so as raja_fan mentions international labels/awards does not matter at all..atleast to me. I have spent so much money on my music system ..all to listen to IR primarily. I am in no rush to go buy the Golden globe winning Slumdog Millionaire soundtrack..but would like to get my hands on Nandhala. ARR is a great music composer, good luck and all the best to him. But except for a few songs, he does not cut it for me. Whatever be IR's personality, I am drawn to his music.
For those who think he lacks 'aggressiveness' now you are mistaken. He is the most aggressive guy I have ever seen in TN public life. He aggressively pursues the truth behind music, kalaignar really did a great job in naming him 'isaignani'. That is why he says for him music is not a profession, it is his life. It is like breathing for him. Yeah, it is not recorded well....no cool sounds ..or new genres mixed in ..but another truth of the cosmos is explored in the next song.

Sanjeevi
23rd January 2009, 03:01 PM
Whatever it is IR still has chances to get global recognition. I am thinking what would have been happened in 80s if 1) that time there was internet 2) he was concentrated in Hindi instead of kannada telugu, malayalam industry 3) he had much more awareness in sound technology 4) the world had shrinked like now with mobile, e-community etc.

Definitely he could have won so many awards including whatever academy, grammy, etc. The same can be applied for MSV too.

Feel very proud of tamil film musicians over the decades.

and finally read the first sentance again/

Sureshs65
23rd January 2009, 05:08 PM
kiru,

You have reflected my sentiments. Fully agree with you. Especially about something IR's music drawing us in.

I listened to Slumdog's tracks but honestly it was not too impressive. That doesn't matter. What Rahman achieved is praiseworthy and his chances of an Oscar is bright. Best wishes to him and I will applaud if he gets an Oscar.

Illayaraja is more closer to many Indian musicians, film and classical, who did not feel the need for 'global' recognition. What finally matters is how much joy the music of certain MD gives you and no one has given me as much joy in film music as Illayaraja has.

Music which is rooted doesn't cross boundaries easily. Forget 'global' reach but do you think 'Nandalala's' music will work in Hindi? I am sure it will not but I am very happy that Raja has given me these tunes. I had once written in my blog on whether music is an universal language as claimed by many. You can read it at http://sureshs65music.blogspot.com/2007/07/music-universal-language.html

Not sure if everyone will agree with me as my argument runs counter to popular thought.

S.Suresh

venkiks
23rd January 2009, 05:36 PM
I am really surprised to see the recognition talk is still going on in this thread. Our IR is the only person who can serve us FULL MEALS. அறு சுவை உணவு. I don't know whether we will be discussing here about IR after 30 years since his first album if he were serving PASTA AND PIZZA.

IR வேடம் போடுவாரா என எனக்கு தெரியாது.

raagas
23rd January 2009, 06:08 PM
The talk is not about recognition, or Pastas or Pizzas but about FULL MEALS only. Some of the best cooked Meals have not been properly stored in 'Good Jars' for our consumption. and More importantly, what we are getting now-a-days are only Plate-meals or Single-meals...but not exotic Full-Meals Buffet, as the master chef is capable of. :)

irir123
23rd January 2009, 07:37 PM
He aggressively pursues the truth behind music, kalaignar really did a great job in naming him 'isaignani'. That is why he says for him music is not a profession, it is his life. It is like breathing for him. Yeah, it is not recorded well....no cool sounds ..or new genres mixed in ..but another truth of the cosmos is explored in the next song.

oh yeah! as a sincere HCRIF who breathes IR's music, I pursue the truth behind IR choice of collaborations with the likes of Fr.Jegath, and his choice of not releasing the OSTs of Hey Ram and Lajja!

I think I have a right to it!

besides, howsoever it might be difficult to be objective about something like music, if I were to look at IR's choice of doing things such as production values, labels etc, none of it makes sense!

strictly speaking, a work like TiS for its grandeur and uniqueness, ought to be having its score sheets available in music libraries, and the music ought to have been discussed in ethnomusicology forums in a big way! has it happened ? no

why is this man underutilising his potential by wasting his efforts ??

he is immensely capable of doing n no of albums like TiS - but if he does have such aspirations, he must understand tat time is running out!

irir123
23rd January 2009, 08:34 PM
btw, i listened to Poongatru (moondram pirai) on my system last night - that was in 1981, and the sound quality is out-of-this world with the 'think-thunk' table sound in the first interlude and the bass guitar lines so clearly discernible and refined giving an amazing aural experience! and this is 2009! how come someone managed to de-evolve the standards, instead of steadily progressing!

writeface
24th January 2009, 12:06 AM
கிரு

உங்களின் கூற்று மிகவும் சரியானது. இளையராஜாவின் இசை நமக்குள் எழுப்பும் ரீங்காரத்தை இசையை ஆன்மாவுடன் தைத்துக்கொண்ட கலைஞர்களால்தான் உருவாக்கமுடியும்.தவிர, ஒரு கலைமனத்தின் வேட்கைகளை எந்த விருதாலும் தீர்த்துவிடமுடியாது. அதேபோல ஒரு கலை மனதின் காரியங்களையும் எளிதில் விளக்கிவிட முடியாது. ஏன் அவராலேயே தன்னுடையத் தேர்வுகளை எளிதில் நியாயப்படுத்தவும் முடியாது நிராகரிக்கவும் முடியாது. உள்ளுணர்வு சுண்டி எறியும் நாணயம்தான் அது.

இரண்டு நாட்கள் முன்பு slumdog millionaire பார்த்தேன்.மிகவும் சாதாரணமான படம்!

Wf.

Fliflo
24th January 2009, 03:25 AM
Original video of IR's live concert in Italy is available in this site. A small sample piece is available here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOwhAO8Qpe8



Dear Vibrations of IlaiyaRaaja,

Kindly the get the Original Video from "The Best Audio", Chennai. Contact No: 42123464 (Chennai, India)

With love & peace,
Akbar

app_engine
24th January 2009, 03:30 AM
Digression

It's time for all of us to celebrate ARR's success instead of questioning the quality of oscar winning works etc.

1. It's the biggest recognition in the world for films - whether HCIRF's accept or not.

2. The fact that many works by earlier oscar winners are average does not bring down ARR's grade. Rather, it only asserts how much more qualified he is than many others from privileged parts of the world who had it easy. (Other icons from TN may also easily qualify for such awards but they should also work for it. This should be recognized by their admirers rather than calling sour grapes)

I hope he'll win more than one! A very well deserved recognition for a talented person!!

End-digression

On initial hearing, Nandhalala is a breezy, sweet work by IR! Like someone said, reminds us of his recent works in MFM.

Need to hear more to enjoy and savour!

irir123
24th January 2009, 03:31 AM
writeface: I agree with all that you say!

but you still have not grappled with the essence of what am trying to say!

do we have a way of preserving IR's immortal works for posterity ?? NO

am i asking for a museum or a repository where one can view the works of IR in published notations ? I know thats asking for too much, but can one even have access to his CDs if one wishes to ? NO

ippadiyey, "IR music yen idhayathai varudum, yen aanmaavai sundi izhukkum, kaadhai kuliravaikkum, endrellaam, if we self-congratulate ourselves", sooner or later, a time will come when IR would not have projects to showcase his talents thereby depriving us of the "aanmaavai kalandha isai"!

if nothing remarkable happens this year in the form of a path-breaking album with a worldwide release and all fanfare, I see IR going down the same way like MSV did

jaiganes
24th January 2009, 04:20 AM
We need to do something to not promote Raaja's musical patterns - but also preserve them. Let us write to Raaja.com or Raajangham asking a special project to remaster the best music of his.
Another option before him is to re create his best musical scores and package them into reusable musical scores that anyone in the world can incorporate into their products. In some sort of way this is like letting a Stanley Kubrick use some of the recordings of mozart's music by a symphonic orchestra instead of using a music director for '2001 Space odyssey' This way his music can easily spread across borders and people will hear more and will be more curious.

writeface
24th January 2009, 05:52 AM
irir123,

Sorry if I sounded self-congratulatory. That is not my intention.

However, I have given-up on this quest to promote&preserve IR's music and all that goes with it. I understand you have had some luck on this recently with the radio station. I admire such efforts and wish nothing but the best.

In the past, I don't know if anybody in this forum remembers, there have been few attempts made in this direction. One example that comes quickly to mind is getting a Symphony Orchestra to play IR's music. Efforts were made to sign-up CSO (Chicago Symphony Orchestra) and IR for this and eventually it didn't materialize. Then Raaja.com or raajangahm was born and few of my friends worked towards the very end of this. Time only will tell if these efforts have made any difference.

One thing to be considered is: Everything depends on IR himself. If he is not interested in re-mastering it will not happen, If he is not interested in CSO playing his piece it will not happen, however hard you try. This is what I have learnt from the past and have come to terms with it.

Why he is not interested in such things - the stuff that we fans consider to be of utmost importance - there is no answer to the question. That is what IR is. He seems to be seeking something else through his music. That's what Kiru is trying to get at and I fully agree with him.

Wf.

Fliflo
24th January 2009, 06:17 AM
irir123, unga aathangam enakku nalla puriyuthu.

Not releasing RPO was the biggest missed golden opportunity to publicise himself to the world community at the right point of time. Indeed, few days ago, I revisited John Scott's site to read his reply to a person named Anbu of Singapore. (Just reposting that again below.) http://webhome.idirect.com/~rlevy/current_question.html
IR did not want to release for whatever reasons. Apparently, a stupid critic's comment made him angry/upset to withhold it. It is a clearcut example of how he obliged to his VaiRaghyam over the botheration about eminency. It is 9 years since now and he has not intended to review his decision. I would say that we have to consider ourselves lucky if we will ever have an opportunity to listen to it in the future. What a pity to miss such a golden opportunity? What any other MD might have done in such a situation?

With regard to TiS, it is again a slip of a golden opportunity due to mismanagament and poor planning. So many HCIRF have put their time and effort to support and publicise as they could. The good thing was it worked (came out). Bad thing was it didn't work the way HCIRF's wanted. I don't think IR had bothered about it at all. His fans though. Obviously, he is suffering with some strange attitude problems. I dnn't think he is ever going to come out. Not at this age though. We can keep pushing. If it works it is great. But I doubt.

I am very angry at the both Tamilnadu and the Federal Govts for not aiding him enough/awarding him to acknowledge his achievements. So many small calibre achievers roam around with Padma awards. Is the TN govt blind? What is Federal Govt. doing? So many tamil politicians sitting in NewDelhi to worry just about themselves? They have the habit of facilitating artists by keeping their names to the roads, or statues, or bridges only after their demise. What a stupidity? Is it not better for the artist if they do it when they are alive? They won't get another IR for hundreds of years. Have they ever realise that. Hope they do this atleast now before late. They did this to Bharathiyar. And now they are doing this to IR. History will never forgive this.

kiru
24th January 2009, 08:27 AM
irir123,

...
Why he is not interested in such things - the stuff that we fans consider to be of utmost importance - there is no answer to the question. That is what IR is. He seems to be seeking something else through his music. That's what Kiru is trying to get at and I fully agree with him.

Wf.
Actually, I think IR does not consider what we consider as important as important at all. We might like his old film songs. But I think he has evolved from that stage long ago and he might consider it musically inferior.
I maybe wrong or just influenced, I find the orchestration in his new albums to be 'completely smooth' (eg. cheeni kum) whether we think the melody is fresh or not. Also, he does not seem to mix ICM and WCM that much, earlier many of his ICM type songs had a bass line, nowadays he keeps it completely ICM.
Popular music is characterised by the rhythm patterns, IR has tried to free himself of the rhythms. He tried to do this in the interludes earlier now market situation is forcing him to continue the rhythm to the interludes. So he takes refuge and rejoices in doing BGMs.

If I understand irir123 right, he wants IR to maintain his "commercial relevance" so as to be around to do classical works that can be sellable. I completely agree with this. But can IR work in an environment which is characterized by rap sounds, accented singing etc ? (even though vikram movie had a sort of rap/techno sounds long ago).

I think it is Kamal who said, that IR is not isai gnani - he is swara gnani - because he knows the significance of each and every swara and how to sequence them. I think he has a point.

Re: Suresh's point - I am told the melody part of music is universal and the rhythm pattern is the one that adds the local flavor. ARR was successful because he was using western rhythm patterns and his music cannot be immediately identified as south indian. Another example would be, Mozart's Eine Kliene Nachtmusik would be popular both in Europe and Asia, across cultures. The reason Western pop music is popular is not just they are easy to follow but also has a 'image' associated with it, which is reinforced by the music label marketing machinery.

People like VM Bhatt have won a Grammy in the World music category. I think TIS can easily win if we lobby for it.

irir123
24th January 2009, 09:47 AM
Kiru - TIS was most probably conceived and done with a specific aim to reach a very wide audience - thats the reason why Stephen Schwartz (Oscar winner) and Richard King (Grammy winner) were sought and used!!

having done all of that preparatory work, shouldnt the project have been deftly given a final complete touch by getting it released through a decent label ??

thats what bugs me - both Schwartz and King are very well-known names in the music industry - having used such names, why wasn't such an association used for accomplishing maximum marketability ?? and that too, TIS was an album which involved the private contributions of several fans, whose only fault was they shared a common passion for IR's music! shouldn't IR have done justice to their eagerness by at least releasing the album through a decent label ?? isnt it absolutely pathetic that TIS copies are not available anywhere online except Amazon.com ?? CDBaby, an obscure site used to have TiS CDs long ago, but TIS has remained out-of-stock for more than 2 years now - TiS is a big 'sodhappal' story!

another of his great work, GURU (Malayalam) CDs were not available most of the time anywhere and one relatively dumb instrumental version of the same gets released in a lowkey fashion, entitled MUSIC MESSIAH - have you read the sleeve notes for MM ? they looked like they were written by some primary school kid! ridiculously naive and amateurish and gave me an impression that the sole intention was not to reach the audiences/buyers!

frankly speaking, IR's pretensions in the name of his recent albums (barring NK,UO and NL) simply suck bigtime - and its indeed painful that after a giant creative step like TIS (which should have, by all means, been a GIANT step for IR career-wise too!), IR has actually jumped down several steps in terms of creative output!

Fliflo
24th January 2009, 09:31 PM
Well. I have been just thinking about this topic a little more aggressively. Leaving out IR's personality issues, i started thinking about other external factors responsible to become Internationalised. I feel the key lies on tapping our own resources first before going international. ARR's main strength is north india + expatriate indians (out of which atleast 60% is north indians). So far his popularity has been minimal with mainstream whites. It is Bollywood that served as launchpad in the Hollywood. Had he been concentrating only on south indian films, he might have been limited to that boundary. Unlike tamilians, the north indians have a better reach to the western community through different means. so once your step is firm in Bollywood, this will automatically give a reach to outside indians. It will take care of Middle east, Parts of Africa, London, Canada etc. Think about the poularities of shah Rukh Khan, Akshay, Amir etc. Where is kamal in this list? in fact some north indian movies are made completely outside india. unless you tap Expatriate North Indian resources, giving a better shot to bigger stage. Americans know only Bollywood. That too very limited knowledge. They don't know anything about any other regional centers. In the 70s and 80s IR felt very comfortabe, ruling the south indian arena totally ignoring Bollywood. the concept of globality came only in the mid and late 90s. So, the time period is not the same now as it used to be 20 years ago. ARR kept his wings spread to flow with this wind. Of course his creativity has helped him. He understood the moods of north indians and filled their cup with right juice. Just my thoughts..This is nothing to do with Indiviuval musicians knowledge. It is all about exposure and opportunity. Well. beyond that your personal behaviors can help in making or breaking.

Sanjeevi
24th January 2009, 09:41 PM
Exactly my thoughts Fliflo :D

ARUNPRAKASHKRISHNAN
24th January 2009, 10:43 PM
dear friends , lets discuss.

ananth222
24th January 2009, 10:50 PM
I think the title "Why IR music hasn't got global recognition?" does not paint a good picture.
A better title would be just "Global recognition of IR's music".

Fliflo
24th January 2009, 11:08 PM
ananth222,

I too thought the same way. I support your request.

sloshed
24th January 2009, 11:55 PM
While you guyz are wondering why IR hasnt got global recongition..doesnt it pain everyone of you that IR so far hasnt reacted to ARR achievement. Other than Yuvan to an extent, I havnt seen anyone heap praises on ARR achievement. I dont care if SDM score is the "greatest". ARR did what noone .. i repeat NOONE in the history of Indian Music has done. He will have no more peers at the end of this. He transends everyone in terms of his success. My prediction and prayers will be two oscars for him.

That leaves us to the big question why is IR silent?. Even the non-ARR camp will acknowledge ARR humilty above everything else. When TIS was announced, ARR was there, celebrating him. I saw no pretensions in his speech.My regards for IR as a musician is unparralled, but he has let me down on this one. I no longer care about his global recognition. IR holds the highest place in my heart. I still sincerely hope when ARR returns home with 2 oscars, IR will be there to welcome him. When MSV can openly declare his love for IR, I think he can do the same as well. Maybe not for his music, but the fact that ARR has elevated the indian music scene.

ARR deserves everything thats been given to him.
Like the movie saying,

Question: Why do you think ARR deserves all this success?
Answer : D. It is written

eagle
25th January 2009, 12:25 AM
I recently saw raja's interview in kalaignar TV in youtube. When Bavatharini asked who is his favourite music director of the current times he answered that he too is scoring music in current times in a lighter vein. But he insisted 2 things, whoever scores music that touches his heart they are his favourites and one musician can never truely appreciates another as he always considers himself to be the best.
As far as this global recongition for IR music is concerned to me its no issue. Raja is more of a classical oriented musician rather than responding to the demands of current times which will eventually disappear in the tides of times.
His music even after 100 years will create a sense of wonder in the minds of listeners and they will appreciate the creative genius of him. His creations are timeless. He will never get the kind of recongition some of his fans are looking for (ie., An oscar or GGA)
But that no way can diminish his musical achievements.
Take the case of Mahatma he never won a nobel for peace.... but all the peace movements in the world, all the leaders of it get inspired by him. It holds gud for Raja also in the field of music...

RR
25th January 2009, 06:36 AM
ananth,

I came up with that title because I think it reflects the central theme of this thread. My intention was not to offend anybody. That said, I leave it to irir123 to edit it as desired.

sloshed: why.. you want to start all over again?? That's quite irrelevant here.

Hulkster
25th January 2009, 07:10 AM
Well i have been looking into the working style of these two and i can say that this might be the closest i can get to IR's thoughts.

The thing about ARR is that as much as he is a extremely talented musician, his success and achievements are bound by commercial viability. He cannot afford to refuse good offers that come his way to give good music and of course aim for the best to keep competition out of his way. That defines him as the best film music composer in india but commercially and in terms of success.

When we look at IR, he is more of a music scientist. Even though he did come to film music just like ARR and came in to achieve, his thoughts were more about "to conduct an orchestra" or like how "raagams can be applied to western classical music" rather than reinventing himself to stay ahead of his competitors.

His dreams have never been about film music, it was rather researching and exploring it to see what other gems can be found. If you notice his three most famous non-film albums they are not to show just his composing ability but his burning desire to research music. How to name it showed us that indian instruments can be used for a symphony format in four movements and also raagams can be used to relate with a western classical piece. Nothing but wind was IR's theory that music is really nothing but wind, just changed to suit out ears in film music or commercial music. And thiruvasagam was IR's trial to see if a divine set of lyrics can cope with a symphony orchestra to bring out its intended emotions.

Watch the interviews of ARR and IR. While ARR interviews are more about achieving and his desire to enthrall audiences around the world IR's interviews are about he would stop composing if he knew all about music. He always mentions there is alot to explore. They are both totally different set of people. A hollywood film will mean a good chance for ARR to step up but for IR it is just a film which he can compose in 30mins. No challenge .

Now how does this bring us to the topic? Simply because IR does not believe in awards, publicity or overachieving. He is more about " give me something that can make me think and create a composition to explore it ". He does not bother about global recognition and awards. It is more about we as music listeners understand the theory he is bringing in his compositions.

ARR - Music composer.
IR - Music scientist.

A music composer will be elated at the sight of a better film, a music scientist will be elated at the thought of a totally challenging theory that has not been stepped into yet.

MADDY
25th January 2009, 12:23 PM
Hulk, to me, i see music in IR's music but i see GOD in ARR's music.......so, u r analogy of composer/scientist will only be accepted by IR fans not by the general public............

hulky, for me, even if ARR hadnt got oscars/GG awards, hadnt got bombay dreams, chinese movie, Padmashri, Bollywood power status - he is still GOD to me........more than anything else - i connect to his music, dont care if others can connect to him or not, yea ofcourse i feel proud when an american feels the same way as me while listening to thalaivar, but thats secondary.........i will not feel bad at all if one day, Yuvan wins more oscars than him

viraajan
25th January 2009, 12:36 PM
Good post Hulkster. I agree with what you are saying.

You say that IR is a Music Scientist - Invention of "Panchamukhi" raaga is a solid proof for your statement. I don't know how well this raaga was accepted by legends in Carnatic Music. But his attempt in inventing this new raaga is genuine and this shows the "burning desire", "innovation", "creativity" in him. IR is second to no one in this world.

Once again, thanks for using the word "scientist" to describe IR. Suits well.

raagas
25th January 2009, 01:55 PM
Hulkster

thats an intersting take and i too agree with you. Infact, i too felt the same about the approaches of these 2 composers.

My only point is: if IR's thinking graph as been exploratively upward since 1976, then..as a scientist, he should be conducting more experiements in his lab and publish his research papers (instrumental albums) instead of just picking up something which any other 'composer' can do.TIS was one, the experiment was phenomenal, but not the method of publishing it.
In my opinion, he will do spectacularly well if we works more on instrurmental works - harnessing his core strengths, instead of not so great films. ofcourse, he can still work on films parallely. lets not forget that the pieces of How to Name It were written during the breaks he took between films an recordings sessions.
Why not now?

Sanjeevi
25th January 2009, 02:08 PM
I think Raaja badly needs hype because music fans except some fans who needs good music to listen, do not care about Raaja.

Hulkster
25th January 2009, 03:17 PM
Hulk, to me, i see music in IR's music but i see GOD in ARR's music.......so, u r analogy of composer/scientist will only be accepted by IR fans not by the general public............

hulky, for me, even if ARR hadnt got oscars/GG awards, hadnt got bombay dreams, chinese movie, Padmashri, Bollywood power status - he is still GOD to me........more than anything else - i connect to his music, dont care if others can connect to him or not, yea ofcourse i feel proud when an american feels the same way as me while listening to thalaivar, but thats secondary.........i will not feel bad at all if one day, Yuvan wins more oscars than him

Same as IR fan i also think IR is GOD but what i am talking about is their difference in the way they approach music as in their thoughts.

ARR is unfortunately bound by commercial boundaries from what i can see. Nothing to do with talent or comparison just the path he took. The thing is ARR is trying to achieve what others could not do in india, make the whole world listen to indian music and that to achieve it in a sense where nobody can reach which he has already proven.

However IR does not believe in achieving for awards or to prove himself. It is more about exploring music on what challenge it can give him. He is like someone who is not bothered by film music, rather he is bothered about what facets music can have and what else it may contain.

The reason why i posted like this was to show my opinion on why i think IR has not got global recognition. Not because of financial relationships or attitude....its just that his theory and belief about composing is totally different to ARR.

Down the years people will remember ARR as the best indian film music composer but IR will be remembered more as someone who tried to define music. Nothing to do with fans,talent,success or whatever just explaining the two different approches to music these two have :D

Hulkster
25th January 2009, 03:21 PM
Hulkster

My only point is:
In my opinion, he will do spectacularly well if we works more on instrurmental works - harnessing his core strengths, instead of not so great films. ofcourse, he can still work on films parallely. lets not forget that the pieces of How to Name It were written during the breaks he took between films an recordings sessions.
Why not now?

All i have heard is that IR plans to do alot of non-filmi albums, infact alot of ideas about his theory about music that it is nothing but wind but just that it might be so "un-commercial" and as a result nobody might want to come forward to finance it. I just hope he does something like that cause i want to listen to his theory rather than get astounded by his orchestral prowess which he has done countless times.

MADDY
25th January 2009, 03:40 PM
The thing is ARR is trying to achieve what others could not do in india, make the whole world listen to indian music and that to achieve it in a sense where nobody can reach which he has already proven.

i do not see why u think this way.........i have never seen ARR saying that........if u look at his growth path - at all stages, it was his associates,who felt he was something extraordinary and tried to showcase him to west........he never went about it.........

in that case, i would also say, IR tried global recognition and went after commercial success when he agreed to do RPH symphony? u know, he has not done anything for free in the name of music - i do not see how he is different......infact it is ARR who has put money to bring in KM conservatory so that a "Indian orchestra" is established in the future........


Down the years people will remember ARR as the best indian film music composer but IR will be remembered more as someone who tried to define music. Nothing to do with fans,talent,success or whatever just explaining the two different approches to music these two have :D

i dont know how you conclude that ARRahman has commercial reasons for his music...........i have never seen him giving music for awards or recognition.....infact, i can say with pride he is the only Thamizh MD who has not resorted to Dappankuthhu to make a song hit - dappankuthhu amounts to pop music in TN, he has used this genre very rarely to good effect........i know for a fact, he composes for petty money in maniratnam;'s films and he composed for half money in varalaaru for his friend K.S.Ravikumar...........this man is all about music, money/recognition are just his fans :)

MADDY
25th January 2009, 03:42 PM
The reason why i posted like this was to show my opinion on why i think IR has not got global recognition. Not because of financial relationships or attitude....its just that his theory and belief about composing is totally different to ARR

also, u have kept repeating urself that IR attained global recognition many years before ARR in many of ur posts - now why are you saying that he didnt get it?? i dont get it honsetly :)

Hulkster
25th January 2009, 03:52 PM
Maddy once again your deviating from the topic, I did not mention ARR says that, its just that the path he is taking is what i mentioned.

I can go on mentioning about examples of about how IR has not go for commercial aspects and you will come with examples of ARR as well to counter it. This will go on till the next century and by then we might have great grand-children. Its like naan veyttuna nee veyttuva nee veyttuna naan veyttuvayn. Its quite obvious that we are not going to bow down in the support of our respective music idols.

As i said IR has never done music for the sake of commercial. Its about the challenge it gives. I derive this opinion basically from the interviews he gives. The fella never talks about how he can compose better he always mentions like "Music is something we can never explore. If i know it i will stop composing." and also a interview with Guitar prasanna where he was mentioned as only talking about counterpoints and stuff. Quite clearly he is so musically oriented that the commercial aspect that is film music does not bother him. I only brought in ARR to show the paths they took, to show their difference.

To summarise my view : ARR is bound by film music and its business aspects, IR is not. As simple as that. Dunt bother bringing in examples of this and that cause i will bring in and like i said this will go on till next century.

Hulkster
25th January 2009, 03:55 PM
The reason why i posted like this was to show my opinion on why i think IR has not got global recognition. Not because of financial relationships or attitude....its just that his theory and belief about composing is totally different to ARR

also, u have kept repeating urself that IR attained global recognition many years before ARR in many of ur posts - now why are you saying that he didnt get it?? i dont get it honsetly :)

One post and yes i mentioned it but this post is more about the theory of why IR is not bothered about global recognition. IR does have global recognition but the people here are discussing in depth more about IR's thoughts about it. So in this case i had to explain more about IR's approach to music and why he does not believe in global recognition.

There are examples to show his global recognition but whats the point? IR does not seem to be bothered about it and his fans dunt really understand why. This post is to give a opinion on why IR is like that.

MADDY
25th January 2009, 04:00 PM
To summarise my view : ARR is bound by film music and its business aspects, IR is not. As simple as that. Dunt bother bringing in examples of this and that cause i will bring in and like i said this will go on till next century.

i do not agree about ur summary either - bcos u havent established why u think ARR is bound by commercial reasons..........its ur assumption :)

fight for centuries :lol: dont worry, its just me, my kids will grow with their own set of opinions, i wont try to make them ARR fans, they are free to choose IR as well :wink:

Hulkster
25th January 2009, 04:20 PM
Well its because of their approach to film music. One used film music to "explain" his theory while the other used it to showcase his talent as a stepping stone for bigger achievements. :D

NOV
25th January 2009, 06:32 PM
Sorry to say this Hulkster, but your posts make me think of two words only: "Sour Grapes"

I dont want to go further on this but it will be good for everyone concerned if ARR is not brought into the discussion.

:wave:

Fliflo
25th January 2009, 09:27 PM
Ada Vivek-ku kuda Padmashri Kuduthutaanga...Nalla Comedy Nadakkuthu

viraajan
25th January 2009, 09:29 PM
Ada Vivek-ku kuda Padmashri Kuduthutaanga...Nalla Comedy Nadakkuthu

:lol:

Local recognition-e kedaikkalai'ngarabodhu global recognition ellam eppadi... :lol:

Fliflo
25th January 2009, 10:10 PM
India-le thaan intha koothu nadakkum

http://www.nakkheeran.in/users/frmNews.aspx?N=2460

Vivek unga mele enakku kovam-ille. Aana raja mele govt-kku enna avvalavu oravanjanai.

Athusari-Atha vaangi mattum enna paNRathu.

Kannadhasan sonnathai pol "Moodargal Mathiyil Kannudan Vazhvathu athuthaan Thollaiyada"

crajkumar_be
26th January 2009, 12:39 AM
Hulk,
In my opinion, to reduce what ARR's music stands for to just "commerce" is totally wrong and from such a premise, one would do great harm than good in a "debate" or dissection of these two great composers

ananth222
26th January 2009, 01:11 AM
I hope that this thread is not a debate on who is a better composer, or about what kind of people get what kind of awards.
This thread should be about how the production and marketing of IRs recent albums matches up with global standards, and what can be done to enhance it and improve the reach of his albums to the wider world.

jaiganes
26th January 2009, 01:56 AM
My theerpu as to why world hasn't recognized the genius in Raaja yet?

Because...

The world is not ready to recognize Raaja kind of genius yet.
Amadeus mozart died a poor man and was buried in a common pit along with tens of other ordinary men. centuries later even kids grow up listening to mozart. Now this doesn't make him a lesser genius. In his time there were other geniuses who were recognized and patronized. However Mozart's genius couldnt be understood by the world fully when he was alive. most of his operas were failures when he wrote them and conducted them.
So Raaja's time is probably lying in the future. How distant time it is I dont' Know. However Raaja and his fans can appreciate one thing. Right to the last man in an obscure Thamizh Naadu village he is known and his songs are hummed every day. This is something that even mozart did not get.

irir123
26th January 2009, 02:50 AM
jaiganes - the Mozart analogy is a viewpoint from a broader perspective - however its still a viewpoint, thats all! during the days of Mozart, he never had the adulation of millions of fans like you and me, and Mozart did not have the medium of cinema to express his genius!

whereas IR had it, did use it effectively but not as efficiently as he could have - this is not about getting global recognition alone - personally, for me, if IR gets an Oscar, and thereafter makes albums not worthy of his standards, the Oscar is not worth it! I have come to expect a certain standard (am sure there are others too) from IR which he himself has set in the 80s through the 90s.

its my conviction, assumption that if a genius like IR does not get recognised through awards in a meaningful manner, he might not come out/be encouraged to come out with albums that would fulfil his creative quest as well as our musical needs! - had TiS gotten big in the world music circles, by now, IR wud have been sought after by groups for doing more creative stuff - then IR cud have demanded that he do such and such a thing - in this context, my rant is that oppurtunities (such as TiS, MM) that surely cud have been handled better, went abegging!!

At another level, its gross injustice that his works done so far, have not been given their due!

kiru
26th January 2009, 07:31 AM
irir123 et. al, TIS is a completely botched opportunity. I really dont understand what went wrong. All that bad blood has left a bad taste in my mouth, that I really dont listen to TIS that much, as it reminds me of all the sincerity and sacrifice that so many fans put into it, which got brutally wasted.
It is technically an amazing piece of work, that a Grammy should have been a piece of cake, yet it just languishes away.
Still, the lack of a Golden Globe, Oscar or a Grammy for IR does not bother me at all. Somehow IR is associated with an older generation, past his prime, so the focus is on the current commercially successful personalities. Even otherwise, the west may not take to the music of IR that very well..local rhythms..tunes with southindian, carnatic flavor will not cross boundaries. He is the R K Narayan of music. The english is way different (rhythms) and the characters are way down to earth (singing style). A Nobel committee does not see sophistication in the work.

Even for local awards, being stuck in the film music world, he will only be judged by his commerical success. There is no market or recognition of different genres (and accordingly a forum for evaluating the best in that category) of music locally. So he is caught in a limbo, a classical musician in a POP music space.
IR started his career in film..a POP music format..but enriched it with so much classicism that he himself learnt so much about music in the process. To me IR marks the end of a genre - indian film music - a genre started by great musicians of the past, enriched as recently by MSV, KVM and taken to its zenith by IR. Indian film music is light classical music with traditional drum accompaniement and western classical string arrangements to backup melodies. Directors discussed what would be an appropriate raagam for the situation and then the composers went to work on it. Lyricists and actors knew so much about the raagam and taalam, it was an intellectual exercise that tried to appeal to the common man as well. With tabla and flute, driving the song like the guitar and drums of classical rock, so many great melodies were churned out by our master film music composers. Each varied in their style and level of panache in the melody or use of western classical methods, with IR excelling in the WCM usage in an indian setting. What others mainly considered as elaboration/decoration of a melody, got moved from the vocal section to the orchestra. An 'enna solli pAduvatho' set for the orchestra completely gets overshadowed by a straight melody set to a modern electronic beat. So I think we are not forgetting IR, we are forgetting and losing a genre.

viraajan
26th January 2009, 08:31 AM
I remember the lines said in Kannathil Muthamittal movie.

"Ivargal Mugam Irundhum Marukkapattavargal".

Suits IR aptly!

Plum
26th January 2009, 09:26 AM
Hulkster, I can tell you that your post is not Sour Grapes. Sour Grapes is when fans of Composer A are miffed at Composer B's rise and then when Composer C rises to eclipse Composer B, then rejoice in that and take cheap potshots at B.

Clearly, the clearest proof that IR doesnt care much awards or recognition is when IR fans' desparate attempts to get him to help in simply getting Chicago S.Orchestra to play his music fails. How can an average human not be interested in a simple chance for publicity? The answer is then he is not average. He is beyond that. If actions speak louder than words, then this action clearly speaks louder than anything we fans can say about he doesnt care for awards.
I also think you have over-simplified Rahman. He has his own theories I guess which he doesnt talk about but there is so much he experiments with sound. You cannot claim that sound is not music because that is what IR himself says "nai kuraikkarurudhula music irukku, kuzhandhai azharudhula irukku etc". In that sense, ARR is a cut above the average Indian composer. Both IR and ARR have differentiated themselves from the average Indian film composer because their sound is A-z theirs. Every interlude, every movement is conceived by them.
I do agree with many that this is not the time to worry why ARR got recognition and IR didnt.

Also, I dont think ARR cares for awards either. Clearly, he has said and done enough things for us to infer that he is an exceptional talent who is more interested in taking Indian music beyond shores it has traditionally washed its waves with. I do think he sees an oscar and GG as a recognition for Indian film music than for himself. If he lobbies or explains himself to the suited crowd judging him at oscars, surely I believe it is not pursuit of self-glory but the bigger goal of limelight for the music community he represents
In other words, I see ARR's Oscar as an award for IR, an award for MSV, and his talented predecssors, too but particularly MSV and IR, because these are the two giants that defined popular tamil film music. Given ARR's personality and genuine humility seen on many occasions, I would rather believe he thinks the same.

Also, a century from now these 3 may be seen as the trinity of popular tamil music - when we think of Carnatic music, which was probably POPULAR MUSIC in the 19th century, we dont think of what their fans at that time thought of each other. We simply accept that Deekshitar, Thyagarajar and Sastri were masters all and move ahead. A similar thing might happen with these 3 and we have to be thankful that we lived in the times of all these 3 great musicians. Maybe our grandchildren may envy us for that.

crajkumar_be
26th January 2009, 09:35 AM
Hulkster, I can tell you that your post is not Sour Grapes. Sour Grapes is when fans of Composer A are miffed at Composer B's rise and then when Composer C rises to eclipse Composer B, then rejoice in that and take cheap potshots at B.

Clearly, the clearest proof that IR doesnt care much awards or recognition is when IR fans' desparate attempts to get him to help in simply getting Chicago S.Orchestra to play his music fails. How can an average human not be interested in a simple chance for publicity? The answer is then he is not average. He is beyond that. If actions speak louder than words, then this action clearly speaks louder than anything we fans can say about he doesnt care for awards.
I also think you have over-simplified Rahman. He has his own theories I guess which he doesnt talk about but there is so much he experiments with sound. You cannot claim that sound is not music because that is what IR himself says "nai kuraikkarurudhula music irukku, kuzhandhai azharudhula irukku etc". In that sense, ARR is a cut above the average Indian composer. Both IR and ARR have differentiated themselves from the average Indian film composer because their sound is A-z theirs. Every interlude, every movement is conceived by them.
I do agree with many that this is not the time to worry why ARR got recognition and IR didnt.

Also, I dont think ARR cares for awards either. Clearly, he has said and done enough things for us to infer that he is an exceptional talent who is more interested in taking Indian music beyond shores it has traditionally washed its waves with. I do think he sees an oscar and GG as a recognition for Indian film music than for himself. If he lobbies or explains himself to the suited crowd judging him at oscars, surely I believe it is not pursuit of self-glory but the bigger goal of limelight for the music community he represents
In other words, I see ARR's Oscar as an award for IR, an award for MSV, and his talented predecssors, too but particularly MSV and IR, because these are the two giants that defined popular tamil film music. Given ARR's personality and genuine humility seen on many occasions, I would rather believe he thinks the same.

Also, a century from now these 3 may be seen as the trinity of popular tamil music - when we think of Carnatic music, which was probably POPULAR MUSIC in the 19th century, we dont think of what their fans at that time thought of each other. We simply accept that Deekshitar, Thyagarajar and Sastri were masters all and move ahead. A similar thing might happen with these 3 and we have to be thankful that we lived in the times of all these 3 great musicians. Maybe our grandchildren may envy us for that.

:thumbsup:

thumburu
26th January 2009, 03:13 PM
That is positive outlook, Plum :)

madhu
26th January 2009, 04:50 PM
Both IR and ARR have differentiated themselves from the average Indian film composer because their sound is A-z theirs. Every interlude, every movement is conceived by them.

This is 1000 % true !! :clap:

jaiganes
26th January 2009, 06:10 PM
Small thing - need to standardize raaja's name.
Is it Ilaiyaraaja, Ilayaraja, or Illaiyaraaja or Illaiyaraja?
This too can get in the way of something we dream about - global recognition.

crajkumar_be
26th January 2009, 06:36 PM
Small thing - need to standardize raaja's name.
Is it Ilaiyaraaja, Ilayaraja, or Illaiyaraaja or Illaiyaraja?
This too can get in the way of something we dream about - global recognition.
Ilaiyaraaja but your coinage "rAsAppu" is not bad either :razz:

Plum
26th January 2009, 06:55 PM
jai, good point. I sanitised all my mp3 files to Ilaiyaraja. But Ilaiyaraaja works fine as well.
(Reason being I dont like the "Fieldla Irukkara, Illaya" sound of "Illayaraja" :-)

ananth222
26th January 2009, 07:20 PM
Small thing - need to standardize raaja's name.
Is it Ilaiyaraaja, Ilayaraja, or Illaiyaraaja or Illaiyaraja?
This too can get in the way of something we dream about - global recognition.
the way IR signs his own name is "Ilaiyaraaja", so I think we should follow that.

rajasaranam
26th January 2009, 07:50 PM
Raaja's Official name in English is 'Ilaiyaraaja' :)

irir123
26th January 2009, 09:50 PM
as someone mentioned, before IR gets global recognition, he should get some national level recognition first!

look at this:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2009/jan/26padma-award-winners.htm

of course this year's new Padma Shri awardeess Akshay Kumar, Udit Narayan, Aishwarya Bachan et al are on any day much more accomplished than IR in their respective professions!

SVN
26th January 2009, 10:53 PM
irir3,

ஹிந்தி சினிமா குலுக்கு நடிகை ஹெலனுக்கும் பத்மஸ்ரீ கொடுதிருப்பதைப் பார்க்கும் போது எந்த சுவரில் முட்டிக்கொள்வது என்று புரியவில்லை!!! 1:10 கணக்கில் 10 ஹிந்தி சினிமா க்கு பத்மஸ்ரீ கொடுத்தால், போனால் போகட்டும் என்று ஒரு தென்னிந்திய இல்லை தாத்தா நடிகருக்கோ, இல்லை, இப்போதோ, அப்போதோ என்று இழுதுக்கோண்டிருக்கும் பாட்டி நடிகைக்கோ அழுது கொண்டே கொடுப்பார்கள். நாமும் முட்டாள்களாய், பத்மஸ்ரீ டாக்டர் கலையுலகக் காவலர் என்று பட்டம் விட்டுக்கொண்டு சந்தோஷப்பட வேண்டியது தான். :)

venkiks
26th January 2009, 10:54 PM
The list easily justifies, why IR doesn't need any award.

SVN
26th January 2009, 10:56 PM
10 ஹிந்தி சினிமா எக்ஸ்ட்ராஸ் என்று படிக்கவும்.

irir123
26th January 2009, 11:00 PM
SVN: "குலுக்கு நடிகை" ஆஹா!! பிரமாதம் பிரமாதம்!! அர்புதமான விவரிப்பு!!

irir123
26th January 2009, 11:05 PM
Kamal Hassan is still ONLY a Padma Shree!! i cant believe this injustice!

SVN
26th January 2009, 11:32 PM
இதப் படிங்க ;)

This needs a standing ovation!
by Ratan on Jan 27, 2009 12:25 AM Permalink | Hide replies

The original ITEM madam Helen is the second wife of one of the script-writers of Sholay and is the step-mother of Bharat Ratna-deserving Salman Khan! What more justification is needed to get a Padmashri? Too bad she wasn\'t considered for the Padma bhushans and Vibhushans.

Next year, we should expect Padma awards to the following ;artists@:

Rakhi Sawant (for being herself)
Silk Smita (posthumously awarded for being the Helen of the 80\'s)
Annu Malik and Pritam (for being such shameless plagiarists)
Sajid Khan (for being such a wonderfully lovable character and promoting (ph)art in Hindi cinema)
Uday Chopra (for being Yash Chopra\'s accidental son)
Shakti Kapoor (for educating the common man on the salient features of casting couch)
... the list goes on. Anyone wants to add more names to this list?

Hulkster
27th January 2009, 05:47 AM
Sorry to say this Hulkster, but your posts make me think of two words only: "Sour Grapes"

I dont want to go further on this but it will be good for everyone concerned if ARR is not brought into the discussion.

:wave:

I do know that bringing ARR in is bound to reap posts of sour grapes especially at this point of time but not when my posts have not been clearly deciphered yet. Only talking about their views of music by using their path taken as a guideline. Might be wrong about ARR but no sour grapes here. Never undermined him as a talent or success and neither mentioned about IR as the deserved one or so, just talking about their paths.

And yes Plum, your correct. In that case i did not really look at ARR's interviews closely then. I mistook him for more of the person who wanted to set a unreachable standard for a film music composer. :D

Anyway as for us fans recognising IR, well the biggest award for IR is that people still want him to compose despite him not even reverting to the trend that is nowadays and still glorify him is good enough.

raja_fan
27th January 2009, 05:52 AM
To RR , who objected that I am doing a personal attack on Fr.Gasper Jegath,

please read this and you will know what Fr.Jegath's main work is :)


http://www.hindu.com/2009/01/27/stories/2009012752060500.htm

"Fr.Gasper said Christianity should be a catalyst of change in society. "


Now Mr.RR, will you be able to censor and edit that news in The Hindu ? ;)

ananth222
27th January 2009, 06:45 AM
Might be wrong about ARR but no sour grapes here. Never undermined him as a talent or success and neither mentioned about IR as the deserved one or so, just talking about their paths.
There was a time when I only listened to Metallica, Iron Maiden, Pink Floyd etc. I started listening to Tamil film music only because of ARR. My first few Tamil CDs were all ARR's. Only then I started listening to IR. Maybe the world will follow the same path :wink:

RR
27th January 2009, 08:48 AM
>> Now Mr.RR, will you be able to censor and edit that news in The Hindu ?

raja_fan: Well.. why should I? None of my business.

rajasaranam
27th January 2009, 09:15 AM
There was a time when I only listened to Metallica, Iron Maiden, Pink Floyd etc. I started listening to Tamil film music only because of ARR. My first few Tamil CDs were all ARR's. Only then I started listening to IR. Maybe the world will follow the same path :wink:

BTW you are 52nd person telling this as per our fellow hubber 'Maddy's account. :lol: I met a NorthIndian Few days back who said the same..hmmmm...நதி எங்கு செல்லும் கடல்தன்னை தேடி... :)

Sanjeevi
27th January 2009, 11:55 AM
yeah athukkum mela enna irukkunu thedum pothu inga thanae vara mudiyum :)

rajasaranam
27th January 2009, 12:39 PM
Plum,

Kind of liked your matured post...But yeah I have some arguements against some points in your post, which If I write may lead to unwarranted 'Ghoshti' Thagaraaru :twisted:

Well Finally you have summed it up right... these 3 composers will be seen as the Trinity of Tamil Film Music down the line, and Raaja will be the Thyagaraja swamigal of them :wink:

Plum
27th January 2009, 02:21 PM
RS, it is not so much maturity but a kind of inner feeling that I have understood Him(IR). I might be wrong but I dont feel that anguish anymore - I went through that phase of agony and irritation at his lack of recognition but I am at peace now with respect to him. It is like I know he is great, I know(rather than feel) that he will be remembered for centuries.
Yes, I agree that he will be the Thyagaraja of the trinity. Shaking strings in the heart. In many ways, one can say MSV is technically very accomplished and was the one to establish the pattern of light music - which is recognised in his title Mellisai Mannar but IR has that special something where he can simply touch emotions.
But try thinking of him as (only) one of Bach, Beethoven or Mozart :-). I am not at all able to choose here :-).

One important point about being remembered for posterity - is that quality of recording et al will not matter. We dont know how Mozart showcased his symphonies. We have the notes however and thats what has captured his legacy. In this, I wish there was a way for IR to retian his scoresheets, digitalize them or something and nationalize them. Discounting the fact that this will lead to TV serial makers making free use, it ensures that his genius is available for future generations. I am sure that 100 yeras hence, someone who accidentally comes across these notes in a legacy library will exclaim "holy God, I have a treasure trove here" and rediscovers IR for the next century. In a very very greedy, soupy, syrupy way, I wish I am reborn as that person. Though I suppose Rajasaranam has the best claim to that position - only he may not believe in rebirths - so yeah I should recognise that I dont deserve to be that person. :-)
Well, maybe, this nationalising can be done a couple of decades down the line just like with Bharathiyar's works were in 1950. I hope his descendants are prosperous enough not to hold on to his copyright.
IR's progeny has atleast this much of duty towards the nation and the nation's musical legacy.

ananth222
27th January 2009, 05:44 PM
One important point about being remembered for posterity - is that quality of recording et al will not matter. We dont know how Mozart showcased his symphonies. We have the notes however and thats what has captured his legacy. In this, I wish there was a way for IR to retian his scoresheets, digitalize them or something and nationalize them.
This works in classical music where every part is written down by the composer. But it won't work in our case. Even for carnatic krithis, there are many for which only the lyrics have been preserved, and contemporary singers give their own renditions (sometimes completely not knowing how the original was sung, esp. older songs like Purandaradasa's). IR's film classics will fall into this category, as he often describes parts to musicians verbally (esp. percussions), possibly with the exception of HeyRam, Guru etc. It might be a different story in case of works like HTNI, NBW or TiS - and IR must do more of those.

Plum
27th January 2009, 06:53 PM
Ananth, exactly. That is why I am thinking we need to do two things:
1) The ones with scoresheet already like TiS, HTNI , Hey Ram, the scoresheets need to be preserved
2) We need to identify other classics and get a scoresheet done for them. Who can do it? VS Narasimhan? Raja himself? Or maybe Karthik Raja, who certainly owes it to his father? No idea how this can be made to work as it involves help from the Raja family.

ananth222
27th January 2009, 08:09 PM
The works of Bach have been catalogued systematically, using a system called "BWV" or Bach-Werke-Verzeichnis (Bach Works Catalogue) . For instance, the famous bourree used by IR in HTNI is BWV996 and the Violin partita in HTNI (hamsadwani) is BWV1006. Maybe IR's works could also be catalogued like that.
http://www.jsbach.org/index.html
Judging by the foresight / commitment to posterity shown by the people in the industry, I think it would be up to us fans to do anything about it.

kiru
28th January 2009, 03:02 AM
To me IR == MSV Version 2.0. Just decrease the ICM content in a MSV song and increase the WCM content to get an IR version.

crajkumar_be
28th January 2009, 03:34 AM
To me IR == MSV Version 2.0. Just decrease the ICM content in a MSV song and increase the WCM content to get an IR version.
Yeah, like Sugarcane = Old Monk

Completely disagree!

ananth222
28th January 2009, 03:36 AM
To me IR == MSV Version 2.0. Just decrease the ICM content in a MSV song and increase the WCM content to get an IR version.yenpa, IR-ARR tholla poraadhu'nnu idhu veraya??

raja_fan
29th January 2009, 06:39 PM
[tscii:aaa568197c]

http://dailypioneer.com/152164/Slumdog-is-about-defaming-Hindus.html

Good lines from above article:

Those Indian musicians who haven’t got the Golden
Globe are not worthy of honour at home just as Sahitya Akademi award winners are not worthy of finding space on our bookshelves, leave alone feature on news pages or news bulletins.

The larger point is not really about going gaga over an American award or a British prize, but how they are seen as India being admitted into the charmed circle whose membership is strictly controlled and is by invitation only. That invitation invariably follows a certain pattern;
it’s not merely the keepers of the gate chanting, “Eeny meeny miny mo,catch a tiger by his toe, if he hollers let him go…” Apart from the fact that the ‘tigers’ in this case are not hollering but salivating at the prospect of seeing themselves clutching a handful of trophies
on Oscar night, the nomination process is far more rigorous than we would think, with filters to keep out those films and books that do not serve the judges’ purpose or pander to their fanciful notions — in
this case, of India. [/tscii:aaa568197c]

crajkumar_be
29th January 2009, 06:45 PM
raja_fan
Romba try panreenga pola :lol2:

raja_fan
29th January 2009, 08:06 PM
crajkumar_be,

eppavum romba thelivaa pesuveenga pola :lol2:

ananth222
29th January 2009, 09:47 PM
http://dailypioneer.com/152164/Slumdog-is-about-defaming-Hindus.html
good, but its presence in this thread sends bad vibes.

raagas
29th January 2009, 10:56 PM
I find that article to be utterly senseless. infact i felt it to be perversion. The author dug out some hidden agendas, supposedly, on the part of that film-maker.But strange. Some film-maker wanted to make a film. and signed up a composer. Surprisingly it becomes a hit and the music gets an award. and here we have people who are trying to get some mediaspace by attributing what all to them. That film-maker might not have even dreamt about such dimensions. I have seen this film and religion is just in the names of characters. Nothing more.and if we change those names to hindu ones, it wouldnt make an iota of difference to the film or theme or whatever. What next, Pakistan funded Danny Boyle and planted him in India? I wont be surprised even if that is an opinion expressed and if 1000 people say 'yes Yes' to it.

I think we should now have films which have characters with names as only Alphabets.. Like ' JK', 'PJ'. because we are now looking for religion and intentions behind the names of characters in a film, and what more, we even appreciate the people who imagine a lot and transform it into 'hidden agendas' of maligning a particular religion and make a 'case' out of it.

If i ever make a film, it will not have full names. Not that i would make a film this this one, but then, we never know where all people might search for religion in a film.
Great. we call this progress.

Sorry, I know this is wrong thread, but really couldnt stop myself after reading the hyper imagination of the author there.

irir123
30th January 2009, 05:43 AM
[tscii:996b97809a] I think Boyle did a fine job in SDM - I personally dont give a damn abt the rabble-rousers creating a furore over the movie, or, a gent by the name Bachan venting out his envy challenging the artistic merit of the film

But what SDM has indeed done is open up questions abt Mumbai's slums!!

digression: the following might be relevant: its a paper published by the Global Commission on International Migration

http://www.gcim.org/attachements/GMP%20No%2042.pdf

Unfortunately, todays mass media do not showcase these highly critical issues of human migrationary patterns!

"The irony is that in the study of international migration processes, poor countries like India are rarely seen as receivers of undocumented migrants from other poorer countries.They are viewed instead as senders of ‘asylum-seekers,’ ‘illegal’ migrants, and professional emigrants destined for richer countries in the West. Challenging this stereotype in international migration research, this paper examines the intensification and complexity of irregular migrations in South Asia – a topic under-researched by scholars - by presenting the unusual case of Bangladeshi immigrants in India."

http://www.gcim.org/attachements/GMP%20No%2042.pdf

"a steady stream of migrants is moving into affluent urban areas like New Delhi and Mumbai (formerly Bombay) where there is a constant demand for cheap labour. Here too they occupy the lowest social echelons, joining the vast ranks of the urban poor living in slums and shanties in these cities. Many Bangladeshi women work as maids or domestic servants in middle-class Indian households in these cities, while male migrants seek employment as laborers, rickshaw pullers or rag pickers who salvage re-saleable material out of garbage"

"According to the estimates, some 300,000 and 200,000 Bangladeshi children work in brothels in India and Pakistan respectively. Between 1990 and 1992 alone, some 1,000 child trafficking cases were reported in the Bangladesh media. Each year some 4,500 women and children are trafficked to Pakistan through India. While many of them were lured with false promises of lucrative employment, others chose migration as a route to escape abject poverty only to find themselves vulnerable at destination points. A great majority of trafficked women and girls have ended up as prostitutes in Kolkata (previously Calcutta), Mumbai, and other urban centers in India"- end digression

let Boyle or anyone make as many movies as they want to - about India - they are welcome!

but let the world also know that India carries the burden of millions of refugees who often enjoy more rights than even its rightful citizens - ration cards, voting rights are all up for grabs! of course there are intellectuals in India who will not stop harping on the ill-treatment meted out to them!

[/tscii:996b97809a]

raja_fan
30th January 2009, 07:44 AM
but let the world also know that India carries the burden of millions of refugees who often enjoy more rights than even its rightful citizens - ration cards, voting rights are all up for grabs! of course there are intellectuals in India who will not stop harping on the ill-treatment meted out to them!



These "refugees" from Bangladesh are the ones who kill hundreds of Indians in Assam and West Bengal by planting bombs.
Anyways, let us concentrate on Music alone. Any debates on religion will change our focus.

kiru
30th January 2009, 08:25 AM
I have not seen SDM. But I am of the opinion that the elite/upper middle class of India wants to portray a rosy picture of our country to the west all the time. This is not really a good attitude. We cannot solve a problem, when we dont even acknowledge that a problem exists. Yesterday, when casually parked in Vijay TV channel for a nondescript movie for a while, my wife, commented, that there is a always namaaz heard in the background, when the story is dealing with terrorists. Maybe this stereotype does not exist, but it is quite possible we all harbor some biases in us. We should let the arts people expose these, even though at times, it might be an exaggeration.
Anyways, back to the topic, there is also a attitude in our society that only when we get an award from the western world we feel accomplished. Still we should not say this when Rahman getting an award should be positively viewed. I feel even if Rahman is watering Indian music traditions to present in a westernized format we should appreciate. He is opening up the market for more serious pieces of art and creating an awareness for our tradition. I am sure people will people will mention RaviShankar, HariPrasad Chaurasia or NFAK. Yes, they did but Rahman is doing it in the popular music space which can reach out to a much bigger audience.

irir123
30th January 2009, 09:04 AM
Kiru - i dont think the problem is with the elite/upper middle class of India - comeone, most people in India just do not have time for such rabble-rousing!

its a select group of lobbyists from political background, and the movie industry who are trying to capitalise on the popularity and hype generated by the film! thats all - most people in India are actually happy that ARR won the GG and is most likely to win the AA too!

interestingly, my colleagues (one an Algerian, another an American) asked me about the movie's backdrop - not in a derogatory way, but in an inquisitive manner - and I explained to them that its after all a movie, meant for entertainment and the facts behind Mumbai slums - the 1000s of illegal immigrants streaming in from Bangladesh finding refuge in Mumbai adding to the slum density - just like most people, they were not aware of this collosal migration problem in India and were quite surprised to learn of the same!

Sureshs65
30th January 2009, 09:05 AM
A last digression in this thread :)

kiru,

I have seen SDM and all I can say is that India just forms a backdrop for the movie. Boyle is not interested in India or Indians. He just wants to tell a story based in an exotic background. So he chose India. I mean, the story could have as well been based in Mexico, Costa Rico or US and it wouldn't have made a difference to the movie. It may not have been as well received since it would have become an ordinary movie with a well known place as a background for the westerners!! The movie's USP is the Indian backdrop. There is no sense fretting over this mediocre movie and trying to worry about the portrayal of India etc.

I will end my digression now.

S.Suresh

Plum
30th January 2009, 10:59 AM
[tscii:5544b839eb]I didnt know which thread I could share this one:
Found a die-hard IR groupie blog and this post: This guy got a letter from IR in 1978! Very interesting , if it is true:
Few of IR's (allegedly) comments in that letter:
1. "Sugamo Aayiram from TIM is a under-appreciated gem." ( I have felt so but IR saying this himself...)
2."In the film “Kaatrinile..”, I have used a new instrument called “Recorder”, which no other MD is using.

Even in the films yet to be released also, you are going to hear the new effects and sounds of even the existing usual instruments."
Well, does tell us IR was thinking about "new sounds" in 1978 :-).
3."7. Even though I increase my “price” to decrease the films to be signed, they never leave me. What can I do ?"
4."Happy that (atleast !) songs of “Odi VIlayadu Thatha” are different !" Yes, they were different. Suseela singing Odi Vilayadu thatha is a different experience
5."Find somebody else who are knowledgeable to be your “Guru”. I am not having that qualification in this life.
"
[/tscii:5544b839eb]

raagas
30th January 2009, 12:17 PM
I completely agree with Suresh. That film has the word 'slum' in its name and just 1-2 sequences shot in slum but the film is NOT about slum. i dont understand why people who are denouncing are missing this point.

Kiru,

Thats quite an interesting snippet. Thanks for sharing it. Infact i have always believed that IR was always creating new sounds and was ahead in technology all through late 70s and 80s. Somehow, barring few exceptions, i think he missed that vigour (on that front alone) in 90s and thereafter. Probably his own attitude towards music (which i think is again reflected by his attitude towards philosophy, nature, religion, life) underwent few changes and accordingly he has kept some elements with him(like melody, orchestration) while he has focussed less on others (technology, sounds etc. )

kiru
30th January 2009, 01:15 PM
irir123 and Suresh, I agree with both of you. raagas, I think you meant Plum who shared that snippet. I think I am not surprised by that. IR always wants to try new instruments ..but please read it does not necessarily translate into new sounds. Sound is an after-effect, how you play and how it expresses the note is important. I am told he buys new instruments every now and then and learns to play it to some extent. Probably he knows to play many more instruments than other well-known MDs. Yes, as raagas, conjectures, his attitudes might have changed over a period of time..probably focussed totally on composing ie. notes rather than the instruments. Just like WCM composers, it is upto the conductors to select the instruments and pace. Just that being in the film/popular music he is forced to select instruments.

app_engine
30th January 2009, 07:15 PM
>>Found a die-hard IR groupie blog and this post: This guy got a letter from IR in 1978<<

You're probably referring to the blog by the brother of our seasoned hubber, Usha Shankar (tvshankar):-) He has also given some nice WCM lessons there. I don't have the link now..hopefully Usha Chechi will provide us the link here...

rprasad
30th January 2009, 08:57 PM
I think its fascinating if you look at the evolution of IR's music through the 3 decades of his career. He started with a folkish sound in his music, slowly moved into modern music then ventured into some classical and then some fusion stuff. The one thing i noticed in his albums has been that he never was interested in doing complete western pop oriented songs with instruments and rhythms dominating the melody even during his peak years. If you look at his fast numbers they were more on the soft side with Jazzy orchestration and still had melody at its base. There might be a few exceptions to this.
Coming to the topic of sound. I think sound for an MD is more of establishing that this is the way his songs are going to sound and the instruments and rhythms are going to sound in this way . This is more of an MD trying to establish a distinct identity to his songs.
As far as IR is concerned he always tried to match his music sound to the movie theme in most cases. As for he not doing much with sound in 90's i think he tried to when he got some good movies, Guru, Hey Ram are good examples. EVen Kadhaluku Mariyadhai had some new sounds(for IR i mean) which atleast i did not hear before in a couple of songs.
But now the trend is making hip modern sounding Rhythms .After departure of Maniratnam i dont think IR worked with any director who would have had the courage to ask IR to do some really modern sounding songs which match the current trends. They are mostly happy to take what he gives given his stature of a legend. This has created an impression that IR is kind of a veteren MD who can just give nice melodies and his trademark brilliant orchestration and BGM not that IR really minds that. But if properly pushed and inspired i have no doubts that he can come up with equally modern sounding rhythms and songs as well. But its highly unlikely there is any director out there. Maybe Balki if he stops asking IR to recycling his old hits can make IR come up with something. Lets hope.

ajaybaskar
30th January 2009, 10:51 PM
'Ilayaraaja taught me great discipline'- A R Rahman


The philosophy that underlines his quest is simple - a good human being makes a good musician. In an interview to PEOPLE at his Chennai residence-cum-studio (the ground floor houses his studio, the Panchathan Record Inn) after his Golden Globe win, Rahman repeatedly emphasises this. "Being a film music composer is not just about scoring good music. It is also about having ethics, commitment, passion and friendship," he says.
It was his father, Malayali music composer, late R K Shekhar, who showed him the way. Rahman remembers how he was a man who always valued musicians as "human beings first."

"My father was a hard worker and never judged musicians by their compositions. He had great respect for them as people and I learnt the same. He was always ready to help those who are in need."

In the 1980s, Rahman work as a keyboard player with legendary south Indian composer Ilayaraaja, which turned out to be his other learning ground. "Ilayaraaja taught me great discipline," says Rahman. "With other musicians, I always saw that there were people, who would drink and smoke. With Ilayaraaja, things were always systematic and disciplined. He was dedicated towards work and, once again, respected every musician."

Those who know Rahman well observe that the musician strives to live by the same tenets. Suhasini Mani Ratnam, wife of director Mani Ratnam, Rahman's good friend sees in him, a child-like innocence at heart. "I have seen A R Rahman showering lot of sympathy on children and people in need," says the actress. "His family has a very positive influence on him and I guess that makes his music more sensitive."

http://specials.rediff.com/movies/2009/jan/30sld2-a-r-rahman-people-making-of-a-genius.htm

thamizhvaanan
31st January 2009, 12:43 PM
-- Deleted --

irir123
31st January 2009, 05:31 PM
thamizhvaanan - humble request - pls refrain from bringing in any other MD here even if you are not using the name! we are not concerned about whats happening to other MDs - we are more concerned about whats NOT happened to IR and trying to find out the reasons - none of the points you gave point to that!

app_engine
31st January 2009, 05:55 PM
After reading Thamizhvanan's post, I'm reminded of what Sujatha said somewhere about gimmicks that he initially did (like printing letters like a staircase to indicate someone getting down etc) just to attract and arouse curiosity.

Sujatha stated that though these can draw initial interest, there should be substance to sustain and keep them. IMO, the novelty of sounds and such could help score initially but without true musical substance one cannot keep it for long.

We can easily see which MD's have held it for long:-)

Back to the topic - How can IR get global recognition? Very simple!

IR needs to work with talents outside the country, on projects of "real global appeal" (not the TbI kind). For this he has to have "stuff", interest and ofcourse, proper networking.

Interestingly, he has enough stuff in that context.

We really don't know about his current level of interest. Definitely he had interest at some point of time in his career (RPO). For many reasons, it didn't came out and all that he gained was probably some experience and development of taste for such orchestras which frequently landed him with the Budapest team later. The question is, does he have the same drive in that direction now? Can't say.

Proper networking (i.e. working with the right kind of people to go global) - total washout in this case. Where, he doesn't even work on correct filmi projects LOCALLY now, national and global are totally out of question unless some miracle happens!

Plum
31st January 2009, 06:33 PM
Thamizhvaanan, I am deeply disappointed by your post. This wasn't what I posted that link here for. If you re-read your post, you are basically venting against IR and taking cheap potshots at him. I dpnt know about your experience with rabid IR fans but the last few pages in this thread which I have seen have been free of malice and rancour. Please do not bring your politics here.

When I wrote that post, I could have also said "0look when IR was rahman's currnt age more or less, he was thinking along similar lines on new sounds.Let's see when rahman gets to IR's current age, does he keep up with maadern trendds."
I didn't.why? Because that would have been silly, and I respect rahman.
If you had an iota of respect for IR, please delete your post.
You don't have to ofcourse but I would appreciate if you did

Plum
31st January 2009, 06:36 PM
App, oh related to a hubber-a?
Interesting

MADDY
31st January 2009, 10:09 PM
we are not concerned about whats happening to other MDs

:rotfl: if that was really the case, then TV would have never come here.....just look at threads in this section and this thread too, where ARR was discussed a lot, much to our discomfort.......

MADDY
31st January 2009, 10:11 PM
please delete your post.You don't have to ofcourse but I would appreciate if you did

plum, sorry, but when i asked the same thing to IR fans to stop rubbishing abt ARR , u said i'm trying to control the hub......

thamizhvaanan
31st January 2009, 10:18 PM
Thamizhvaanan, I am deeply disappointed by your post. This wasn't what I posted that link here for. If you re-read your post, you are basically venting against IR and taking cheap potshots at him. I dpnt know about your experience with rabid IR fans but the last few pages in this thread which I have seen have been free of malice and rancour. Please do not bring your politics here.
:shock:
Honestlty I am shocked to know that my post can be interpreted as such. Well, if you think that the last few pages are free of malice and rancour, its upto you. But if you really read through the subtext of some of those posts, you can see an intentional dig at ARR, be it saying that awards are meaningless or be it downgrading the brilliance shown in other aspects of music making where ARR shines now. I can appreciate it if these points come purely to w.r.to evaluvation of IR's music but here the intention is deeper than that. Gone are the days of direct confrontation between IR & ARR fans, these days its more like a cold war. Thanks to the volume of his acheivement they dont have the guts to challenge his genius directly. But these fans do take a dig at him indirectly often referring to him as "other MD's", "modern MD's", "pop MD's" and when confronted directly they come up with a cliched superficial reply "ofcourse I appreciate ARR for whatever he acheived". Just check ARR forums for comparison, you will seldom hear anyone lowballing IR, whereas here talks about "other MD's" is very high in proportion. It is done as if telling themselves, to confirm one's own faith that they still prefer IR over others. Such cheap potshots are so common in this forum that I decided not to post here any longer. But I couldn't restrain myself from highlighting that hypocrisy of particular IR fans seeing your valid post.

Sorry that I made it sound like that. I respect the opinions of some of the hubbers like yourself, app_engine etc., . But I really regret that value of my post had to suffer a dip under your perspective, could have been avoided and will be avoided in future :)

:wave:

thamizhvaanan
31st January 2009, 10:20 PM
-- Deleted --

thamizhvaanan
31st January 2009, 10:26 PM
-- deleted --

MADDY
31st January 2009, 10:27 PM
But I really regret that value of my post had to suffer a dip under your perspective, could have been avoided and will be avoided in future

:shock: but why?? do ARR bashers here stop after posting crap on ARR?? u have made a decent post after all :huh: why feeling bad :D .........i just love IR and his music - but lets not shy away from "questioning" ARR bashing :)

irir123
1st February 2009, 01:27 AM
we are not concerned about whats happening to other MDs

:rotfl: if that was really the case, then TV would have never come here.....just look at threads in this section and this thread too, where ARR was discussed a lot, much to our discomfort.......

Maddy - porutthaar bhoomi aalvaar! therefore am patiently explaining things and putting things in perspective to you - as far as this thread is concerned, we are not interested in bringing other MDs and create unwanted controversies and dilute the focus of the thread!

pls read what you have written and see if it makes any sense or connection to the intentions behind my request!

I will not stoop down to the level of condescending remarks abt you for misunderstanding me - coz, its my sincere understanding that you have misunderstood my statement - i hope this will make you understand

raagas
1st February 2009, 01:35 AM
I guess we can have a separate thread for that too "ARR bashing". because in every thread, some topic will ultimately lead to discussion on ARR either directly, or with different names like Thamizhvaanan mentioned.

when will people accept that IR and ARR are different people, from different backgrounds and different approaches, schools of thought and outlook. when will people stop comparing and accept both as standalone good composers in their own way and dimensions, with no comparisons.

I also dont understand why do most IR fans pick only ARR? How come that segment of IR fans never pick on other composers, including IR's sons? or Other composers in Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam or Hindi? I think people really need to think about this question.

Still if people want to do that, better open a new thread. that ways, some hubbers like me will atleast know which threads to avoid. and that ways, other threads can become IR centric, instead of always ending up in controversial discussions to prove upmanship.

crajkumar_be
1st February 2009, 01:55 AM
I can understand why Thamizhvanan posted that. Plum, TV was basically trying to question the assumption of sound-quality dichotomy here in these threads. And TV post-ku objection therivikkaravanga modhal-la namma IR fans posts ku yen edhuvume sollala? I mean some of the sound/recording arguments made by IR fans here actually work against them.. idhu theriyama...!
Shows these so-called fans' tolerance to music, and understanding (or the lack of it) of IR's music, let alone ARR's

crajkumar_be
1st February 2009, 02:08 AM
Just check ARR forums for comparison, you will seldom hear anyone lowballing IR, whereas here talks about "other MD's" is very high in proportion. It is done as if telling themselves, to confirm one's own faith that they still prefer IR over others. Such cheap potshots are so common in this forum that I decided not to post here any longer. But I couldn't restrain myself from highlighting that hypocrisy of particular IR fans seeing your valid post.


Just a minor nitpick.
Yes, maybe the proportion may be more here but this reaffirmation happens even in ARR and other threads where its irrelevant

NormalMan
1st February 2009, 04:54 AM
yaaawn ... மிக பெரிய கொட்டவி. றெcஒர்ட மாதுங்பா.

MADDY
1st February 2009, 06:47 AM
I will not stoop down to the level of condescending remarks abt you for misunderstanding me - coz, its my sincere understanding that you have misunderstood my statement - i hope this will make you understand


Well i have been looking into the working style of these two and i can say that this might be the closest i can get to IR's thoughts.

The thing about ARR is that as much as he is a extremely talented musician, his success and achievements are bound by commercial viability. He cannot afford to refuse good offers that come his way to give good music and of course aim for the best to keep competition out of his way. That defines him as the best film music composer in india but commercially and in terms of success.

When we look at IR, he is more of a music scientist. Even though he did come to film music just like ARR and came in to achieve, his thoughts were more about "to conduct an orchestra" or like how "raagams can be applied to western classical music" rather than reinventing himself to stay ahead of his competitors.

His dreams have never been about film music, it was rather researching and exploring it to see what other gems can be found. If you notice his three most famous non-film albums they are not to show just his composing ability but his burning desire to research music. How to name it showed us that indian instruments can be used for a symphony format in four movements and also raagams can be used to relate with a western classical piece. Nothing but wind was IR's theory that music is really nothing but wind, just changed to suit out ears in film music or commercial music. And thiruvasagam was IR's trial to see if a divine set of lyrics can cope with a symphony orchestra to bring out its intended emotions.

Watch the interviews of ARR and IR. While ARR interviews are more about achieving and his desire to enthrall audiences around the world IR's interviews are about he would stop composing if he knew all about music. He always mentions there is alot to explore. They are both totally different set of people. A hollywood film will mean a good chance for ARR to step up but for IR it is just a film which he can compose in 30mins. No challenge .

Now how does this bring us to the topic? Simply because IR does not believe in awards, publicity or overachieving. He is more about " give me something that can make me think and create a composition to explore it ". He does not bother about global recognition and awards. It is more about we as music listeners understand the theory he is bringing in his compositions.

ARR - Music composer.
IR - Music scientist.

A music composer will be elated at the sight of a better film, a music scientist will be elated at the thought of a totally challenging theory that has not been stepped into yet.

MADDY
1st February 2009, 07:32 AM
Just a minor nitpick.
Yes, maybe the proportion may be more here but this reaffirmation happens even in ARR and other threads where its irrelevant

CR, i agree that HJ bashing and kamal bashing was going on in ARR section, but not without people like rsubras/jacky condemning it vehemently.......we controlled HJ bashing to a large extent by explaining "HJ bashers" how counterproductive that could be.......kamal bashing too was dealt in the same way.......i see a major reduction in both now......IR bashing never happened in our section, atleast for last 2-3 yrs barring some "mock" remarks here and there.......we will wipe off this 100% with master's moderation :)

atleast we have shown intent to stop these rubbishing of other people in our section and we have worked towards it 8-)

jaiganes
1st February 2009, 08:27 AM
To Maddy and TV.
I felt strongly about posting a reply to TV's post, but I felt that there is an underlying fact in the post even though the general tone could have been done in a better way. I could understand that TV was trying to hit back at me and some other hubbers who were not very particular about the 'sound quality' as a criterion for reviewing a Raaja album.
In defence of sound quality of Raja albums and his retraint in introducing new instruments, the general lament he has been voicing out is the lack of properly trained musicians with devotion that are available in Chennai at his disposal today. With the money he gets(for the projects he chooses to accept) he does try out some innovation in musical patterns but not in variety of new instruments as that would be a costly affair. If ARR tried a new instrument - It is easily understood that the purchase and use is funded by a film producer who pays him the money to experiment. And above all he experiments heavily with electronic and computer software to innovate new sounds while Raja wants an acoustic instrument and a human player of which there is a scarcity in chennai that is affecting him nowadays. Hopefully ARR's musical conservatory succeeds and there are more devoted instrumentalists that come out of it to be used by IR and others too. I hope I have not hurt IR fans or ARR fans in this post and if I had done - certainly that is not my intention.

Hulkster
1st February 2009, 08:47 AM
Why is my post being highlighted? I thought i already apologised for mistaking rahman's intentions in music?

irir123
1st February 2009, 09:57 AM
Hulkster and Maddy - peace!

lets get back to IR n global recognition!

Plum
1st February 2009, 11:33 AM
Ok, I stirred this up here. Let me make a few things clear:
I have seen hulkster's post before and I wrote about it - I dont think hulkster's was a malicious or a reactive post. He was posting his views on ARR/IR, and partly I agreed with him though I pointed out that he had over-simplified ARR, and he was gracious enough to agree.

The tone of TV's post, was what put me off. I could very well understand that it was 'historical baggage'. Which is why I mentioned about his previous experience with rabid IR fans might have caused him to react so but again, because it is IR, my tone also probably got a bit moralistic :-). Thanks to TV for his gracious reaction again. I am glad the quality of these disagreements have improved in tfmpage over time, including my own outlook.

I started this, let me plea not to continue this discussion on IR-ARR. Let's stick to IR. I dont fully comprehend ARR's genius but I can atleast 'feel' and 'know' that he is one. It must be similar with TV and others in the reverse direction. This is not going to change. Let's live with it :-)

Hulkster
2nd February 2009, 06:19 AM
Yup...do we still have to continue this thread as the answers lie with isaivignani. I think if he were to move on into his non-filmi dreams he has to be convinced by a musically-interested business magnate. Otherwise his tons of ideas about creating dimensions in music will be just ideas.

thumburu
2nd February 2009, 01:40 PM
How does criticizing or dissing ARR's works or IR's works tantamount to ARR or IR bashing? [Doing character assasination or taking digs at personal life is wht should be condemned] Why should there be a censor for criticizing music or the techniques an MD uses? After all , this forum is not a bhajanai madam for sure. Comparisons are inevitable. If we don't have the tolerance for criticism of our idol, we better stick to fan groups and not post in a forum like this where there is right of freedom to criticize any MD's work.

Sureshs65
2nd February 2009, 02:49 PM
I fully agree with thumburu. While music is subjective, there is still a lot of scope for objective analysis. I believe understanding the music of a MD, whom you may not appreciate, increases if there is a fruitful dialog. You may still not be able to appreciate some things but you will atleast know why someone else likes it. I am all for a good dialog, though this thread may not be the right place. There was another thread where there was comparison between the music of Rahman and Raja but I see it has faded to the background now. I too fear that things are slowly going the way of fan clubs. 'I won't criticize your idol. You don't criticize mine' :)

S.Suresh

rajasaranam
2nd February 2009, 02:55 PM
Plum, Bala and others,

Welcome to Pulikesi (http://pulikesi.wordpress.com/2009/02/02/reply-to-a-reply/) :twisted: Manam Thiranthu pesungal no moderator there :)

Plum
2nd February 2009, 03:03 PM
Thumburu, I am fine with criticism of IR's work. Even I have reservations on the usage of synth in Naan Kadavul. But when you simply vent out against him for his fans' perceived assault on ARR, that is simple, plain politics, which is not something I thought was appropriate here.

On recording, I wrote a lengthy post that got lost when I tried to post it.
I think in the current context recording and proper usage of synth, if at all you use it, is very important. IR has done this well in parts in some movies, not so in others, in recent times, so notably in Naan Kadavul. The tinny synth in Amma Un Pillai interludes drives me crazy(not in the right way). And in Om Sivoham also, there is a particularly inspiring portion with just tabla(dholak?) and Bells, and all of a sudden, you get a thambalam crash of a drum roll(not sure if it is synth or original) I last heard in SV Sekar dramas. This is not professional - I dont know who is to blame here but the end result is disappointing because it is like losing the marathon by a few seconds, because your shoes were ineffective.
Also, I dont know if it is justified by the screenplay but it should be Shiva, Shivoham and Shankara not siva, sivoham and sankara. If a particularly North Indian character sings it, then it shouldnt have been sa. It should have been sha.Maybe it is a south Indian character that sings it on screen. Small matters, but authenticity is important - of course, in an industry where Udit Narayan and Sadhana Sargam mangle tamil repeatedly, this is not so out of the way.

But I am feeling that Naan Kadavul is an important album that will live for long - I know I didnt pay much attention to MSV in the 80's because of what I used to call tishkyoon-interludes, a sort of no-man's-land orchestration. But dig deep into his 80's repertoire even now - you do find some really delectable tunes and songs, if your mind can filter the poor orchestration. I do believe current youngsters will have a similar moment with IR 20 years hence. And that is the point I want to make about recording - it is the icing on the cake. While I appreciate that poor recording quality takes away from current recognition and current experience of music, my belief is that it will not hurt long-term recognition. Who is to say whether ARR/HJ's current output is up-to the recording quality standards of 2028, for instance?

crajkumar_be
2nd February 2009, 03:10 PM
Plum, Bala and others,

Welcome to Pulikesi (http://pulikesi.wordpress.com/2009/02/02/reply-to-a-reply/) :twisted: Manam Thiranthu pesungal no moderator there :)
Thanks!
Will read, "process", "formulate" and reply. Over to your blog :)

irir123
2nd February 2009, 07:21 PM
of course, in an industry where Udit Narayan and Sadhana Sargam mangle tamil repeatedly, this is not so out of the way.

Udit narayanan is now a Padma Shree! therefore, I strongly object to this criticism of a central govt recognised Padma Shree artist

Sureshs65
2nd February 2009, 07:29 PM
Plum,

I have heard lot of North India singers singing Siva and Shiva. As soon as I heard the song the first impression was that it is being sung by a North Indian. Not only Sivoham but everything that follows has a North Indian touch. The whole pronunciation is North Indian in this song.

I agree with you regarding the long term importance of the tune. I still remember being stunned hearing an old Hindi song sung by a singer named Kurshid, "Ghata Gana Gor Gor" and also an unknown singer sing a Bengali song "Aaj Jyotsna Raatein", from an old black and white film. Both of them very scratchy as far as recording was concerned.

I guess the recording quality does matter for the immediate enjoyment but a few years down the line, the tune would stay alive. (Lest this be misconstrued, let me state that this is a general observation and not something supporting IR or opposing ARR/HJ/Yuvan. I too wish the recording quality of Raja's recent songs were better.)

S.Suresh

kiru
3rd February 2009, 08:09 AM
..

IR needs to work with talents outside the country, on projects of "real global appeal" (not the TbI kind). For this he has to have "stuff", interest and ofcourse, proper networking.
..

I am posting this mainly to register how aghast I am to this suggestion. Come on , App, if you do things that specifically targets an audience..it is not art ..it is commerce. While touring an exhibition of art by Picasso, I learnt that at that time, there was no such kind of drawing at all. If only, he had tried to paint in the 'what you see is what you get' paradigm and win at it..a whole new form of art would not have been invented.

rajasaranam
3rd February 2009, 09:10 AM
..

IR needs to work with talents outside the country, on projects of "real global appeal" (not the TbI kind). For this he has to have "stuff", interest and ofcourse, proper networking.
..

I am posting this mainly to register how aghast I am to this suggestion. Come on , App, if you do things that specifically targets an audience..it is not art ..it is commerce. While touring an exhibition of art by Picasso, I learnt that at that time, there was no such kind of drawing at all. If only, he had tried to paint in the 'what you see is what you get' paradigm and win at it..a whole new form of art would not have been invented.


Dig//
probably yes! but vincent Van gogh was the first to alienate from the conventional painting styles. His Brush strokes were different from the period he lived in and was the forerunner to the art by creating 'Expressionism' - Which meant to distort reality and express the enhance the 'emotion' of a painting. He broke the convention of 'What you see is what you get'.
And there was 'Salvador Dali' a contemporary of 'Picasso' who also pioneered in the filed of 'Modern Art. This is never to undermine Picasso and his 'Cubism' Which stretched the Art further into 20th Century. //End Dig

Plum
3rd February 2009, 09:43 AM
Suresh, I dont know - I have never heard the lighter sa from that demographic. I dont claim to have visited every 'north indian'(that in itself is a rather generic term, I may be pigeon-holing here) village so I guess you could be right. But somehow I didnt feel the 'rootedness', if I may, on this one.(in the singing and the pronounciation)
Yes,that is my stance on recording quality and that is not to say that recording quality is not needed. Things age anyway, doesnt mean you should give birth to it in an aged form :-)

app_engine
3rd February 2009, 07:08 PM
kiru & rs,

We're in a different world today than those of past genius artists. For them, communication & high speed travel (rather lack of them) were the biggest factors (well, advantages) in getting their works recognized globally much later than their time period.

That aside, my posting was specific to the topic - how can IR's music get global recognition. Even if you're upset with my observations (why, even I'm upset & aghast things are that way), those are cold facts.

However, I'm not a prophet and can only talk about the state of affairs as of today. Who knows, after 100 years, there may be worldwide appeal to HTNI kind of IR stuff and everyone learns it in academies, people create stuff around it etc.

Very simple, take a mathematical genius who teaches at some XYZ college in Thenkasi kind of place - what chance he has to win Nobel prize unless he travels to some university in NA, presents papers etc.

MrJudge
4th February 2009, 11:37 AM
"IR needs to work with talents outside the country, on projects of "real global appeal" (not the TbI kind). For this he has to have "stuff", interest and ofcourse, proper networking."

Yes, this is a fast lane to reach the goal. But his working style is completely different from post-92 MDs. These guys will invite anyone to their recording studio and use others inputs. All you hear is not their music. He is more like a classical music composer. Whether we like it or not IR does everything alone and this makes the task even harder. MIA sampled IR's works into her songs, is IR aware of that? If that happened to any other MD, the first thing he will do is inviting her to perform in one of his songs if possible. But the chances of IR do that kind of act is very minimal. So I don't think IR will collaborate with other musicians unless they play what he has composed. The only way to reach global audience for IR is to work with good directors who use composers like John williams in their films. Only his background scores will take him not songs.

pure bliss
4th February 2009, 01:35 PM
ready start............

pure bliss
4th February 2009, 01:44 PM
judge!

fulla arikkuthu.continue your eye opening inputs. ongala mathiri 4lu peru......ella nenga oruthare pothum IR ku, Global recognition kedaichudum .

venkiks
4th February 2009, 05:45 PM
IR has to work more at home on what he is doing now. He must work more on more non-film albums like Thiruvasagam, symphony, HTN and NBW.
If he did that the world would come here and recognize him.

I don't think IR should go out pursuing recognition.

After all if IR is gone to the west, who else is here to give us our own music.

kiru
4th February 2009, 10:35 PM
App et al, I hope I did not offend any of your sentiments. I do not even a bit of 'aadhangam' that is quite understandable with the accolades Rahman is accumulating. I am happy for Rahman, because he proves that our land is not a 'one-trick pony' with only IR around. The fact that the country has gained a foothold in high-technology area and many young people work all over the world lending credibility to the Indian intelligence is something to be proud of.
IR has his own style and today if it does not sell, it is ok. It still holds musical value. Though people dont agree with Mr. Judge, I think he has a point that IR's BGM/composition skills are the ones which can probably get him the limelight. I think IR can really beat Yanni at his game, but that sort of music needs to be 'marketed' which is kind of longshot now for IR. Today, I really, enjoyed every note of 'indha maan, undhan sondha maan'. THe flute fills, the strings for the high part of the charanam etc. How many people are going to enjoy this song nowadays whether in India or abroad ? Still, this is a fantastic POP/light music. Venkiks said it right - "if IR is gone to the west, who else is here to give us our own music".
Looks like the whole world has become a "melting pot" with the music/art of many cultures borrowing from each other. What is wrong in one person's art still having a 'flavor of the soil' !! In a see of jeans or evening gown or mini skirt clad beauties I see an elegant Indian woman in a 'kancheepuram' silk saree. :)

app_engine
4th February 2009, 11:15 PM
Digression -

Kiru - I'm elated that ARR had made it big globally and I can't stop bringing him up in my discussions with Michiganders nowadays:-)

I hope he gets Oscars and makes all of us happy. It may also serve the cause of other artists in India who weren't looked at in the past :wink:

End-digression

We all know any amount of our discussions isn't going make a difference on IR (or his managers) in musical aspects / way of handling relations etc. So essentially, all these posts are simply outbursts of 'Adhangam' only:-)

On a different context, if we think of the other genius MSV, things were even worse than that of IR's. He had talent, good will etc. but got ignored even locally. (So much so that BR-IR-AVM had to step in and help him with MTK). And what about global recognition for him?

I think Indians in general, got some global recognition either during pre-independence time period (Tagore / CVR / Bose) or post-liberalisation time period (Aishwarya / ARR...) It appears that the 50 years or so when the country tried to align with Soviet and not the "west" (while claiming to be non-aligned and having a lot of restrictions in trade etc.) didn't do any good for global recognition of the talents there. MSV is the worst hit and IR to some extent. It possibly helped India a lot to stand on its own leg without much support (why even animosity) from the west but it also severely limited the exposure of our talents globally.

app_engine
4th February 2009, 11:33 PM
Just to make things a little clear, even during 80's, there were any number of items that were on "the restricted list" of imports or with heavily imposed customs duties, even for regular manufacturing industries. Electronics industry, for which there was hardly any local mfr of components, had to face all kinds of trouble with customs to get parts even to produce anything. In that condition, to innovate, design, manufacture etc. needed extraordinary will / miracle etc - especially in the private sector.

It's not tough for me to see how much more difficult it would have been to get good quality musical stuff / recording stuff, which was a big handicap for all artists then. (Even sports was heavily clipped as I've read so many laments from the likes of Gavaskar of non-avaialbility of quality gear. He has mentioned that even Indian-made high quality stuff had to be bought from abroad as they were purely for export. I still remember people having to pay in $ to get Bajaj Chetak scooter if they didn't want to wait for years).

Considering such conditions, any achivement by MSV - IR (during their prime) on technological side is praise worthy. Not many youngsters of today can understand the struggle of people to get quality stuff as late as 80's and it's easy for them to talk about the "poor recording quality" of IR songs etc.

njv
5th February 2009, 11:02 PM
app_engine

Impressive post, but big issue

how with all limitations, sound quality of priya, jhony, nizhalgal is still standing out compared to Nandalala and the likes!!! he should have kept the quality the same atleast.

My salangai oli "Cassette" that i bought when I bought my first "tape recorder" produces better sound than Nandala CD played in my home theater system with all possible sound technology logo.

One thing is very clear. IR didnt have any interest any more, but at the same time doesnt want to miss any assignment which gives him 25L with out moving an inch. Thats prob why he also throwed away his big archestra and just going with 15-20 ppl.

we are all justifying his act with our own views and hoping that he or someone close to him will take this message to him.

I know few ppl here, who are close to IR, but in front of IR, they talk everything but music. May be they are affraid. i talk to him couple of times, but more like a fan than a friend, so I had to keep my mouth shut (+ when u see him u just dont have words)

Hopefully ppl close to him and regular hubbers here take the courage to pass on the message.

irir123
6th February 2009, 04:13 AM
njv - valid points - but who will take the message to him ?? and will he listen ? at least one expected that if and when IR works with fresh faces like Mysskin, the recording will be better - while NK recording is good, NL falls behind - noone knows whats going on !

Hulkster
6th February 2009, 05:05 AM
May i ask what's wrong with Nandalala recording? I am able to enjoy the melodies well. :roll:

app_engine
6th February 2009, 07:26 PM
njv,

The comparison on recording / production quality has to be actually between the priya cassette and some top selling album of TFM today (e.g. shivaji).

The reason ? simple - resource allocation. People come to IR today because he can ensure musical quality at ABYSMALLY LOW PRICES. I don't think he can command much to the producer today - be it musicians / equipment etc. I don't think (or don't want to believe) that it's because of IR's lack of interest in sound quality. At this stage, I think this is all he can afford:-(

Once again reminds me of MSV's plight in late 80's...

rprasad
6th February 2009, 09:32 PM
ITs funny to hear the wild speculations regarding reasons for IR's alleged recording issues. Firstly according to me i dont think there is anything wrong with Nandhalala recording and i am saying this after listening on the web and not the CD. Atleast there was nothing which jumps out and disrupts my listening pleasure. I only saw some people complain that the Keyboards and percussion were of cheap quality and supposedly IR used cheap ones for no reason or maybe to save cost?

and i dont think its right to compare NK with this that was totally a different kind of music than NL which was deliberately sedate and subdued. again comparing Priya and Johny or nizhalgal is the same issue diferent periods, different kind of music resulting in different recording experiences. Why even then i found a couple of songs from Agni Nakshtram which was a top class and hip album, but there were some issues with couple of songs recording which minor but noticeable. SO its not that only recent IR albums have issues.
I agree that the recording has been inconsistent for IR albums in the past and even in recent times. But again i somehow did not find anything which caused me not to enjoy the good songs. AS i said earlier these are probably a result of some inconsistencies in mixing and during the making of the final CD. and i dont think IR spends much time nowadays in involving himself with the mixing and final recording process. I think the fact that he involves himself so much in writing the music for the entire orchestra as well composing the songs makes him pay less attention to the final mixing and recording of the music into CD's. Again this is my opinion only which i think is more logical than resons like IR has no money. Now people might ask but what about earlier when he was doing more movies but again there were a lot of inconsistencies then too(lost in a huge bunch of movies he did then) we just had casettes and no cd's then, and maybe the people who did the final mixing and recording process did better jobs atleast for the good albums. and ofcourse IR was younger then, Just my sheer guess.
So people relax, IR is not broke and he still has the entire orchestra(note that he does not do many movies nowadays so its possible not everyone from the old orchestra still exists as they need to get paid as well) and producers/directors will pay him the due fees which he demands because lets face it people who come to him for music are for the reason that they only want him and not the market acceptability and hence pay is not a criteria.

kiru
7th February 2009, 04:31 AM
App..you have raised an interesting parallel to MSV and the socio-economic situation. Music is a direct
reflection of
the socio-economic ethos of a particular time period. MSV/Pre-IR it was a bit more emotional/sombre -
families in difficult situation etc, with IR it was
the romantic period with Balu Mahendra, Bharathi Raja etc. With Rahman, the economy has improved
and now the music is more exuberant/fun.

Re: digression on recording quality - TIS was done with so much expense because he felt HTNI/NBW did not
have good recording. So he knows the importance of good recording.
Then why is it that the movies are not recorded well ? Here is my hypotheses -
1) Acoustic recording - It is really difficult to record multiple live instruments playing at the same time, which is
what IR wants and likes to do. ARR/Yuvan and other computer-enabled MDs do it track by track.
This way the instruments are "closely miced" and effects are added to put the instruments left/right or
close to the listener or way behind/behind the singer. There are many examples of IR films where the recording was
very good - ninaivellAm nithya, pagal nilavu, thani kattu raaja, anjali, chembaruth, singaravelan etc
2) Perception / Synthetic sound - Many/most recordings for Rahman are synth sounds and people liked this sound
versus the sound of real instruments, because they have been listening to acoustic instruments for a long time.
Also, the sound is "frequency range" optimized for consumer equipment. For eg, many drum instruments like tabla
etc produce sounds below 60Hz range, but consumer equipment cannot reproduce this. Rahman/New MDs have synth drums or
percussion tracks which have a 100Hz boost. So compared to these recordings IR's songs 'lack' bass. But once you
add a subwoofer or a real full-range speaker then you can hear better into IR's recordings.
3) Usage of Synth sounds - Since everybody is telling IR, that Rahman and others are using this keyboard and that
he has switched to it (inspite of personal liking), but the way he uses them is just like acoustic instruments and
so they do not sit well with other instruments (this part is just my own unproven theory). For eg. I feel cheeni kum and nandhala have used the same kind/quality
of synthesizers, but cheeni kum is slightly ahead because of good mixing and mastering. Basically, I dont think
IR is using bad quality keyboards (atleast lately).
4) Cost - this is what is currently forcing IR to use synths. Suddenly an orchestra has become costly.
5) Actual bad acoustic recording - unfortunately many of IR's albums fall into this category. Inspite of acoustic
recordings being difficult to do. There is no excuse of such quality. Again, it might have been cost/quality of
equipment. He has been a one-stop shop (in terms of fees/cost), sort of like Toyoto or Honda - cars at different price ranges vs a Bentley or Maserati or Aston Martin.
6) Reproduction - it is very difficult to reproduce good acoustic recordings on consumer equipment. This is one
of the reasons that even the good quality recordings of IR went/still go unnoticed.

MrJudge
7th February 2009, 07:37 AM
NK padaththula varRa original score mAthiri Raaja pOttuttE irunthA pOthum atleast for one film every year, global recognition vEnAm oru maNNum vEnAm.

irir123
9th February 2009, 07:08 PM
http://www.rediff.com/movies/2009/feb/09zakir-hussain-wins-grammy.htm

Tamil Mayyam shd have sent TiS fo the 2005 Grammys

kameshratnam
10th February 2009, 01:57 PM
:D Global recognition only possible when jalaras are shunted out

NormalMan
10th February 2009, 07:23 PM
:D Global recognition only possible when jalaras are shunted out

And who would they be??

eagle
10th February 2009, 10:13 PM
Digression -

I think Indians in general, got some global recognition either during pre-independence time period (Tagore / CVR / Bose) or post-liberalisation time period (Aishwarya / ARR...) It appears that the 50 years or so when the country tried to align with Soviet and not the "west" (while claiming to be non-aligned and having a lot of restrictions in trade etc.) didn't do any good for global recognition of the talents there.

kalakeetinga... niraya vishayam ippadhaan puriyudhu... oru vela ippdi irukkumo... appdi irukkumo nuu kuzhambittu irundha naan ippa thelivagiten... :lol:

crajkumar_be
11th February 2009, 12:32 AM
Global recognition/awards etc are great to have but its no big deal even if our man does not have it. Yenna onnu, andha Ekkam irundhutte irukkum but we can live with that void.

I agree with Judge, after Naan Kadavul, namma mana nilai satru maariduchu... The God just went higher

jaiganes
11th February 2009, 01:28 AM
Digression -

I think Indians in general, got some global recognition either during pre-independence time period (Tagore / CVR / Bose) or post-liberalisation time period (Aishwarya / ARR...) It appears that the 50 years or so when the country tried to align with Soviet and not the "west" (while claiming to be non-aligned and having a lot of restrictions in trade etc.) didn't do any good for global recognition of the talents there.

kalakeetinga... niraya vishayam ippadhaan puriyudhu... oru vela ippdi irukkumo... appdi irukkumo nuu kuzhambittu irundha naan ippa thelivagiten... :lol:

aeei yaruppaa adhu inge kozhappam theendhuduchaam, saar elaile konjam kozhappaththa oothungappa.

kameshratnam
11th February 2009, 11:03 AM
:D Global recognition only possible when jalaras are shunted out

And who would they be??

Those who are near him and blindly accept and praise his music without reviewing them and those who falsely spread news about others to him

Plum
11th February 2009, 12:33 PM
"
Those who are near him and blindly accept and praise his music without reviewing them and those who falsely spread news about others to him
"
And who would that be :-)

krish244
12th February 2009, 10:23 PM
According to Pandit Ravi Shankar, IR is one of the "bollywood" composer who did not get the global recognition that he deserved.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Potpourri/Im-glad-Zakir-has-won-his-first-Grammy/articleshow/4117467.cms

thanks,

Krishnan

thumburu
13th February 2009, 04:30 PM
It is really so nice of Panditji to recall IR even though that juvenile interviewer could not look beyond bollywood when it comes to Indian film music. Indha media myopia oru theeraadha vyaadhi

irir123
13th February 2009, 06:03 PM
thumburu - what more did you expect from an interviewer from the TOI(let) paper of India ?!

kiru
13th February 2009, 10:49 PM
[tscii:eedc2e3c8b]"I’ve admired music directors who have developed instrumental music along with and apart from the songs, like C Ramachandra, Salil Chowdhury, SD and RD Burman and Ilayaraja."
I guess, I missed the first part of this comment initially..So he is crediting these MD not just for songs but for also developing instrumental music. I can see how RaviShankar is a MUSICIAN..he knows to appreciate with specifics..[/tscii:eedc2e3c8b]

irir123
16th February 2009, 08:54 PM
As part of a cohesive, well-planned effort of a team working silently, here is an important announcement:

check this out: http://www.thecommentfactory.com/

"Indian composer Ilaiyaraaja is a genius; how long can the West ignore him?"

All credit to Vignesh (violin vicky) for his efforts!

irir123
18th February 2009, 06:49 PM
guys, several exciting things are round the corner - pls wait - will update as and when they all happen!!

Sanjeevi
18th February 2009, 06:50 PM
:D

irir123
20th February 2009, 08:49 PM
one thing that really baffles me about IR is this - a man whose whole life has been music, who sacrificed so much for being wat he is, why is he hesitant in promoting himself ?
I refuse to believe that he is not ambitious and also tat he believes in destiny et al - did he consult astrologers before signing up for close to 40 movies a year ? jaadhagam paartha directorskellam yes sonnaar ?

NormalMan
23rd February 2009, 07:47 PM
Ada pongaya. Enna genius talent irundhu enna prayojanam. History is going to see him as a Kodambakkam MD, who could not project himself to be see in the right light ... nothing more....

rocketboy
24th February 2009, 07:40 AM
God deserves a Bharath Ratna at least . Lata Maneshkarukku kodupaanga . Ellam north indian bigots nalla than intha disrimination

raagas
24th February 2009, 10:28 AM
keep whining rocketboy. north indians have discrimination. americans have it. british have it. sri lankans have it. telugus have it. bengalis have it. europeans. then, religions have it. then sects have it. castes have it. Just everyone has it. only you dont have it. right?

First understand when a person is given 'Bharat Ratna'. I am not saying that IR doesnt deserve it. But merely because he was not given it, it doesnt mean a certain section of people are discriminative. infact, by separating them as a section, you are being discriminative.

raja_fan
24th February 2009, 10:41 AM
Ellam north indian bigots nalla than intha disrimination


Idhellaam over :)
ARR stands as a proof now.

rajasaranam
25th February 2009, 04:24 PM
intha thread thaan itha post panna bestunnu nenaikiraen :)
http://jeyamohan.in/?p=1894

The Reply I have sent to JemO


ரஹ்மானை சிறபித்து பாராட்ட வேண்டிய இந்த நேரத்தில் நீங்கள் அவரை பாராட்டியது மிகவும் மகிழ்ச்சியுட்டுகிறது. அனால் அதே நேரத்தில் அவரை பாராட்டும் நோக்கில் சற்றே அதீதமாய் சென்று "தமிழ் சினிமா நவீனத்துவத்துக்கே வராமலிருந்த காலத்தில் இசையை பின்நவீனத்துவ காலகட்டத்துக்குக் கொண்டு சென்றதே ரஹ்மானின் சாதனை." என எழுதியிருப்பது தமிழ் சினிமாவையோ அதன் இசை மரபையோ சரியாக உள்வாங்காமல் அவசரத்தில் எழுதி விட்ட த்வனி வருகிறது. தமிழ் சினிமாவின் இசை மரபில் மெல்லிசை மன்னர் MSV காலம் தொட்டே நவீன இசை ஒலிக்க துவங்கியத்தையும், அதன் தொடர்ச்சியாக இளையராஜா அவர்கள் அந்த நவீனத்தை முன்னெடுத்து சென்று, பின் சீறி பாய்ந்து பின் நவீனத்துவ இசை மரபை உருவாக்கியதையோ மறந்து, எப்படி நீங்கள் ரஹ்மானுக்கு மட்டும் அந்த புகழாரம் சூட்டுகிறீர்கள்?

"இது ஒரு பின்நவீனத்துவ இயல்பு. நவீனத்துவ இசை அந்த ஆளுமையின் தனிப்பட்ட இயல்பின் வெளிப்பாடு. ரஹ்மானுக்கென உறுதியான சட்டகம் ஏதுமில்லை. அவரது ஆளுமைக்குப் பதிலாக ஒரு கூட்டுவெளிப்பாடு அவர் வழியாக நிகழ்கிறது. அவ்வாறு பல்வேறு திறமைகள் முயங்க உயர்தொழிநுட்பம் உதவுகிறது." - இதுதான் நீங்கள் உள்வாங்கியுள்ள இசை பற்றிய புரிதலா? கூட்டு செயல்பாடு என்பது 'செயல்' மட்டுமே சார்ந்த ஒரு புரிதல். இசையின் இறுதி வடிவம் மட்டுமே அது பின்நவீனத்துவ பிரதியா அல்லது நவீனத்துவ பிரதியா என்பதை தீர்மானிக்கும். உதாரணமாக 'நிறைய பேர் சேர்ந்து கூடி விவாதித்து சினிமா எடுப்பதால்' எல்லா சினிமாவும் பின்நவீனத்துவ பிரதியில் அடங்குமா என்பதை யோசித்து பார்க்க வேண்டுகிறேன். அது அல்ல என்பது புரிய வரும்.

ராஜாவின் இசையோ ரஹ்மானின் இசையோ முழுக்க பின் நவீனத்துவ பிரதி ஆகிறது எப்படி என்றால் அதன் இறுதி வடிவம் ஒற்றை இசை மரபை சார்ந்து இல்லாமல், பல்வேறு இசை மரபுகளையும் அதன் கூறுகளையும் கூட்டி நெய்வதினால். ராஜாவின் பல்வேறு பாடல்களில், பின்னணி இசையினில் கூர்ந்து கவனித்தால் அப்பிரிக்க, ஜாஸ் , ராக், பாப், டிஸ்கோ, மாண்டரின், செல்டிக், ஸ்பானிஷ்/ மெக்சிகன்/ லத்தீன், மேற்கத்திய செவ்வியல், கர்நாடக, இந்துஸ்தானி, நாட்டார்...என நீளும் பல்வேறு இசை வடிவங்களை கையாண்டு இருப்பது தெரிய வரும். ரஹ்மானின் இசையிலும் அவ்வாறே. இருவரும் வேறுபடும் புள்ளி எதுவெனில் ராஜாவின் இசையில் இந்த எல்லா மரபும் தங்கள் வேர்களை இழந்து, அவரது இசை பற்றிய ஆழமான அறிவினாலும், புரிதலினாலும் மற்றும் ஆளுமையினாலும் தனியாக ஒலிக்காமல், முழு பாடலின் அல்லது இசை கோர்வையின் உணர்வுக்கு தங்களை உருமாற்றம் செய்து கொள்கின்றன. (தேர்ந்த இசை வல்லுனர்கள் கூட அவரது சில பாடல்களில் வரும் பல்வேறு இசை வடிவங்களை அறுதியிட்டு முத்திரை குத்த முடியாமல் அது 'ராஜமுத்திரை' என முடித்து கொள்கிறார்கள்.)
ரஹ்மானின் இசையில் இந்த பல்வேறு இசை மரபுகளும் தங்கள் வேர்களை அப்படியே தக்க வைத்து கொள்கின்றன. மேலும் அவரது இசை உலகமயமாக்கலின் பின்விளைவான ஒற்றை உலகு, ஒற்றை கலாசாரம், ஒற்றை இசை எனும் திசையில் பயணிக்கிறது. இதில் எது சரி எது தவறு என்னும் விவாதங்களுக்கு செல்லாமல் இசை ரசிகர்கள் தங்களின் தேர்வுகளை செய்யலாம்.

...மற்றும் சர்வதேச அங்கீகாரம் என்பதெல்லாம் டூ மச். அது அந்த தேசத்து சினிமா எக்ஸ்பிரஸ், பிலிம் பேர் விருது போல்தான். என்ன இன்று அமெரிக்கா உலகளாவிய ரீதியில் ஆதிக்கம் செலுத்தி வருவதால் இது நமக்கு மிக பெரிய விருது போல் தோற்றம் வருகிறது. நாம் இந்த விருதை அடிமை நிலையில் இருந்து 'அவன் அங்கிகரித்து' விட்டானே என்று பார்க்காமல், அவன் விளையாட்டில் அவனை வெற்றி கொண்டுள்ளோம் என கர்வம் கொள்ளும் நேரத்தில் தான் இந்த விருதுக்கான முழு மதிப்பு நமக்கு புரிய வரும். கொஞ்சமே கொஞ்சம் கமலின் வார்த்தைகள் அந்த கர்வத்தை பகிர்ந்து கொண்டது, மற்றவரெல்லாம்...!

raja_fan
25th February 2009, 06:54 PM
RS,

Wait for JM's reply. That man replies every question promptly.

chash
25th February 2009, 10:45 PM
rajasaranam,,, you've just reflected the thoughts of many ppl,,,, will talk to you more on this,,,

- Chash

so eppadi irukeenga,, b'lore dhaan irukeengala,, should catch up soon,, :)

eagle
26th February 2009, 12:31 AM
Je.Mo tried to decipher rahman's music in an unusual manner. First its not the way Je.mo writes usually. But i think i can understand whats he driving at.

Modernism and postmodernism in the literary, art and architecture movements are familiar to many but in music he tried to apply the same methodology whether he succeeded is a question mark, mostly because we are conditioned to think musical output is a single man's effort. Its true only to some extent. Also postmodernism is not just a linear extension of modernism as many think its diametrically opposite to modernism, the deconstruction of it.

When he says rahman dosent have any sattagam of his own he exactly describe what post modernism is all about. He acts as a channel or medium through which a musical expression is happening, its having so many influences and contributions from many people infact most artists say rahman gives them freedom to express themselves.

Raja is Ayn rand's howard roark in "fountain head" while Rahman is inclusive and shares the credit with others.

One more thought i am seriously doubt whether raja can compose a song like "newyork nagaram" which captures the predicament of a postmodern man.

Hulkster
26th February 2009, 05:29 AM
He can, after all when it comes to challenges Raja is ready to prove us. However they prefer to use raja for movies which is deemed untouchable by any composer except for himself.

littlemaster1982
26th February 2009, 06:21 AM
மற்றும் சர்வதேச அங்கீகாரம் என்பதெல்லாம் டூ மச்.

Appuram edhukku indha thread start panni serious-a discuss pannittu irukkeenga :huh:

joe
26th February 2009, 07:32 AM
மற்றும் சர்வதேச அங்கீகாரம் என்பதெல்லாம் டூ மச்.

Appuram edhukku indha thread start panni serious-a discuss pannittu irukkeenga :huh:

ஆஸ்கர் என்பது சர்வதேச அங்கீகாரம் அல்ல .அமெரிக்க அங்கீகாரம் என்பது சிலருடைய கருத்து :)

littlemaster1982
26th February 2009, 08:21 AM
மற்றும் சர்வதேச அங்கீகாரம் என்பதெல்லாம் டூ மச்.

Appuram edhukku indha thread start panni serious-a discuss pannittu irukkeenga :huh:

ஆஸ்கர் என்பது சர்வதேச அங்கீகாரம் அல்ல .அமெரிக்க அங்கீகாரம் என்பது சிலருடைய கருத்து :)

Let it be. This same thread is created for the purpose of getting some recognition for IR's music from westerners (read Americans). When IR fans themeselves are looking for it, why do they have to crib about ARR getting awards and accolades?

joe
26th February 2009, 08:26 AM
why do they have to crib about ARR getting awards and accolades?

Absolutely ..They don't have to. :)

irir123
26th February 2009, 08:40 AM
littlemaster1982: humble request - if you do not have anything to contribute to the main theme of this thread, you are welcome to avoid this thread - pls do not come here and question me/us as to why I/we started such threads - if you are still interested, you may go ahead and start a thread "does IR deserve global recognition ?" or something like that and you can discuss whatever you feel is appropriate and relevant to that thread

please do not come here and SPAM us with your questions- thank you

and thats as polite as I can get

littlemaster1982
26th February 2009, 08:52 AM
If the discussion is about IR and his global recognition alone, I wouldn't have come to this thread in the first place.

What's the need for Rajasaranam to post his reply to whatever post/blog, belittling ARR's achievement? Praising IR is all fine but when it comes at the expense of ARR, why do I have to keep quiet?

And, thanks for the politeness Irir123. I'm touched.

rajasaranam
26th February 2009, 08:57 AM
Littlemaster,

Read the post properly. If you dont know tamil ask the meaning from someone who knows.

littlemaster1982
26th February 2009, 09:02 AM
RS,

I know Tamil very well and could understand what you really meant. No matter how polished your words were.

rajasaranam
26th February 2009, 09:37 AM
LM,

Thanks for understanding the 'polish' in my words! :wink:

Plum
26th February 2009, 09:54 AM
"ரஹ்மானை சிறபித்து பாராட்ட வேண்டிய இந்த நேரத்தில் நீங்கள் அவரை பாராட்டியது மிகவும் மகிழ்ச்சியுட்டுகிறது. அனால் அதே நேரத்தில் அவரை பாராட்டும் நோக்கில் சற்றே அதீதமாய் சென்று "தமிழ் சினிமா நவீனத்துவத்துக்கே வராமலிருந்த காலத்தில் இசையை பின்நவீனத்துவ காலகட்டத்துக்குக் கொண்டு சென்றதே ரஹ்மானின் சாதனை." என எழுதியிருப்பது தமிழ் சினிமாவையோ அதன் இசை மரபையோ சரியாக உள்வாங்காமல் அவசரத்தில் எழுதி விட்ட த்வனி வருகிறது. தமிழ் சினிமாவின் இசை மரபில் மெல்லிசை மன்னர் MSV காலம் தொட்டே நவீன இசை ஒலிக்க துவங்கியத்தையும், அதன் தொடர்ச்சியாக இளையராஜா அவர்கள் அந்த நவீனத்தை முன்னெடுத்து சென்று, பின் சீறி பாய்ந்து பின் நவீனத்துவ இசை மரபை உருவாக்கியதையோ மறந்து, எப்படி நீங்கள் ரஹ்மானுக்கு மட்டும் அந்த புகழாரம் சூட்டுகிறீர்கள்?

"இது ஒரு பின்நவீனத்துவ இயல்பு. நவீனத்துவ இசை அந்த ஆளுமையின் தனிப்பட்ட இயல்பின் வெளிப்பாடு. ரஹ்மானுக்கென உறுதியான சட்டகம் ஏதுமில்லை. அவரது ஆளுமைக்குப் பதிலாக ஒரு கூட்டுவெளிப்பாடு அவர் வழியாக நிகழ்கிறது. அவ்வாறு பல்வேறு திறமைகள் முயங்க உயர்தொழிநுட்பம் உதவுகிறது." - இதுதான் நீங்கள் உள்வாங்கியுள்ள இசை பற்றிய புரிதலா? கூட்டு செயல்பாடு என்பது 'செயல்' மட்டுமே சார்ந்த ஒரு புரிதல். இசையின் இறுதி வடிவம் மட்டுமே அது பின்நவீனத்துவ பிரதியா அல்லது நவீனத்துவ பிரதியா என்பதை தீர்மானிக்கும். உதாரணமாக 'நிறைய பேர் சேர்ந்து கூடி விவாதித்து சினிமா எடுப்பதால்' எல்லா சினிமாவும் பின்நவீனத்துவ பிரதியில் அடங்குமா என்பதை யோசித்து பார்க்க வேண்டுகிறேன். அது அல்ல என்பது புரிய வரும்.

ராஜாவின் இசையோ ரஹ்மானின் இசையோ முழுக்க பின் நவீனத்துவ பிரதி ஆகிறது எப்படி என்றால் அதன் இறுதி வடிவம் ஒற்றை இசை மரபை சார்ந்து இல்லாமல், பல்வேறு இசை மரபுகளையும் அதன் கூறுகளையும் கூட்டி நெய்வதினால். ராஜாவின் பல்வேறு பாடல்களில், பின்னணி இசையினில் கூர்ந்து கவனித்தால் அப்பிரிக்க, ஜாஸ் , ராக், பாப், டிஸ்கோ, மாண்டரின், செல்டிக், ஸ்பானிஷ்/ மெக்சிகன்/ லத்தீன், மேற்கத்திய செவ்வியல், கர்நாடக, இந்துஸ்தானி, நாட்டார்...என நீளும் பல்வேறு இசை வடிவங்களை கையாண்டு இருப்பது தெரிய வரும். ரஹ்மானின் இசையிலும் அவ்வாறே. இருவரும் வேறுபடும் புள்ளி எதுவெனில் ராஜாவின் இசையில் இந்த எல்லா மரபும் தங்கள் வேர்களை இழந்து, அவரது இசை பற்றிய ஆழமான அறிவினாலும், புரிதலினாலும் மற்றும் ஆளுமையினாலும் தனியாக ஒலிக்காமல், முழு பாடலின் அல்லது இசை கோர்வையின் உணர்வுக்கு தங்களை உருமாற்றம் செய்து கொள்கின்றன. (தேர்ந்த இசை வல்லுனர்கள் கூட அவரது சில பாடல்களில் வரும் பல்வேறு இசை வடிவங்களை அறுதியிட்டு முத்திரை குத்த முடியாமல் அது 'ராஜமுத்திரை' என முடித்து கொள்கிறார்கள்.)
ரஹ்மானின் இசையில் இந்த பல்வேறு இசை மரபுகளும் தங்கள் வேர்களை அப்படியே தக்க வைத்து கொள்கின்றன. மேலும் அவரது இசை உலகமயமாக்கலின் பின்விளைவான ஒற்றை உலகு, ஒற்றை கலாசாரம், ஒற்றை இசை எனும் திசையில் பயணிக்கிறது. இதில் எது சரி எது தவறு என்னும் விவாதங்களுக்கு செல்லாமல் இசை ரசிகர்கள் தங்களின் தேர்வுகளை செய்யலாம்.

...மற்றும் சர்வதேச அங்கீகாரம் என்பதெல்லாம் டூ மச். அது அந்த தேசத்து சினிமா எக்ஸ்பிரஸ், பிலிம் பேர் விருது போல்தான். என்ன இன்று அமெரிக்கா உலகளாவிய ரீதியில் ஆதிக்கம் செலுத்தி வருவதால் இது நமக்கு மிக பெரிய விருது போல் தோற்றம் வருகிறது. நாம் இந்த விருதை அடிமை நிலையில் இருந்து 'அவன் அங்கிகரித்து' விட்டானே என்று பார்க்காமல், அவன் விளையாட்டில் அவனை வெற்றி கொண்டுள்ளோம் என கர்வம் கொள்ளும் நேரத்தில் தான் இந்த விருதுக்கான முழு மதிப்பு நமக்கு புரிய வரும். கொஞ்சமே கொஞ்சம் கமலின் வார்த்தைகள் அந்த கர்வத்தை பகிர்ந்து கொண்டது, மற்றவரெல்லாம்...!
"

RS, romba azhaga ezhudhi irukkeenga. Ellorukkum purinja sari..

Plum
26th February 2009, 09:59 AM
"ரஹ்மானின் இசையில் இந்த பல்வேறு இசை மரபுகளும் தங்கள் வேர்களை அப்படியே தக்க வைத்து கொள்கின்றன. மேலும் அவரது இசை உலகமயமாக்கலின் பின்விளைவான ஒற்றை உலகு, ஒற்றை கலாசாரம், ஒற்றை இசை எனும் திசையில் பயணிக்கிறது. இதில் எது சரி எது தவறு என்னும் விவாதங்களுக்கு செல்லாமல் இசை ரசிகர்கள் தங்களின் தேர்வுகளை செய்யலாம்.
"
Little Master, idhu puriyalaiya? Me help?

(If you read RS's post with a calm and composed mind, you can see that he has described beautifully Rahman and Raja's approach - and has sidestepped from the debate on which path is better - I know his views on which path is better but when he says that, he puts that as his opinion. In this post, he has clearly said that it is pointless debating which approach is better. Avar karai erittaru? Neenga? You can imagine Vedam Pudhidhu images here :-) )

littlemaster1982
26th February 2009, 10:17 AM
Plum,

I had a problem with few of his lines, not the whole post. And I didn't come here to say ARR is better. Hope you get what I mean.

rajasaranam
26th February 2009, 10:22 AM
eagle,

Again you are constructing post modernism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_modernism) as an all inclusive one, though in essence it is partially right explanation for the 'text', 'author' or his modus operandi are irrelevant after the 'text' is complete. Post modernism deconstructs only the 'TEXT', not the author as he is dead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author) already. The movement started by Sartre, taken ahead by Jaques derrida saw the most defining moment of post modernism only after this proclamation by Roland Barthes.

A marquez, borge or Kafka work are coming under 'post modern' analogy not because of the authors but because of the textual style that they have adapted. Similary a Raaja work or a Rahman work are to be considered to be called a post modern work considering the merits of the work alone, not of the authors nature of 'crediting' others or 'all including' is the point Iam trying to drive to JemO. I think you are also not able to understand what Iam saying here. To me It cant get any more 'Post modern' in music than what Raaja has done. Try reading the Prem-Ramesh (few of the pioneers who brought home post modernism from west in the early nineties.) authored 'Ilaiyaraajavin Isaiyum Azhagiyalum'.

Listen to 'Kaadhal un leelaiyaa' from Japanil Kalyanaranam! man that was 25 years ago and much before post modernism was introduced as a philosophical dialect to tamilnadu, Raaja had captured the predicament(Thavippu-not necessarily a melancholy) of a postmodern man. Or listen to the songs from 'Eera Vizhi Kaaviyangal' especially 'Kanavil Mithakkum' or 'Pazhaiya Sogangal' you will know how post modern Raaja has gone :)

rajasaranam
26th February 2009, 10:29 AM
LM,

I have Infact given a higher pedestal than what is in your mind to the award through these lines "நாம் இந்த விருதை அடிமை நிலையில் இருந்து 'அவன் அங்கிகரித்து' விட்டானே என்று பார்க்காமல், அவன் விளையாட்டில் அவனை வெற்றி கொண்டுள்ளோம் என கர்வம் கொள்ளும் நேரத்தில் தான் இந்த விருதுக்கான முழு மதிப்பு நமக்கு புரிய வரும்.'
Innum puriya varavillai to many fans including you. So be it.

Sureshs65
26th February 2009, 11:55 AM
RS,

In Hyderabad we generally say, 'light le miyan', which means, take it cool :) I would have said that to you regarding Jeyamohan's article had it not been for the fact that JeMo is a well known and well respected writer. Honestly, JeMo may not possess as much knowledge in music as he does in literature and in many places he himself states it. So I wouldn't have worried about JeMo's opinion on any MD. It is just an opinion. As good as yours or mine but definitely not better. The only problem is more people read him than you or me :)I fully understand and appreciate your reply to him though I don't care nor can understand these jargon like post modernism etc.

rajasaranam
26th February 2009, 12:37 PM
I fully understand and appreciate your reply to him though I don't care nor can understand these jargon like post modernism etc.

Exactly that is what my fear was and which prompted my reply to JemO. When people read his article they will think that Rahman was a pioneer in something (Postmodern music here!) which they dont understand and there would be a wrong notion created and spread.
My reply to him addressed two key issues that there was no modernism in film music here and Rahman had taken a giant leap into post modernism. People who want to understand the philosophical explanation will understand it and the others who read JemO's article will get to know there were composers who were modern and postmodern enough here, before Rahman, through my reply. :)

Plum
26th February 2009, 12:39 PM
littlemaster, I'd still say read that post again. RS hasnt been at all disrespectful to Rahman. As I said, Rahmanukku kidaichidichungaradhukkaga, ivlo naal "Oscar oru america virudhu, adhu sarva desa angeegaaram illai"nu sollikittu irundhavanga, andha karuthai mathikananumnu sonna eppadi?

crajkumar_be
26th February 2009, 01:20 PM
Largely agree with RS's post :thumbsup:

However, there is a difference between "Oscar is not international recognition" and "Oscar is not the ultimate international recognition" or "Oscar is not the ultimate recognition". Which implies, whether the recognition comes from South Korea, Holland, Egypt, France or U.S.A it IS indeed international recognition. Appadi paatha ottumothama korainja patcham 15 countries recognize panna dhaan international recognition-a? :huh:

An Oscar award is one given by members of the academy (American) to a 'piece' of art, which they have been exposed to, and which in their minds, is the best in that year. It does NOT mean that is necessarily the best work in the world that year, it does not mean those who have not got it are lesser beings, it does not mean it is the easiest thing in the world to do, nor does it mean it is NOT an international recognition or "just another award" (everybody who should know, knows the kind of avenues it opens and hence understand the magnitude of this achievement). [Best Foreign Language Film category vera matra categories vera, idhuvum note panna vendiya onnu, this is what is being referred to as "winning them at their own game"]. This is how i see it

crajkumar_be
26th February 2009, 01:24 PM
No matter how hard i try i'm never able to understand exactly what 'post-modern' means. I mean, dictionary ellam paathaachu but who is a post-modern man and how does he differ from 'man'? And what is post-modern music?

Fliflo
26th February 2009, 01:31 PM
தமிழன் எடுக்கிற படத்துக்கு ஏன் ஆஸ்கார் விருது கிடைக்கவில்லை என்று இப்போது சிலர் கேட்கிறார்கள். இங்குள்ள கலைஞர்கள், இயக்குனர்கள், தயாரிப்பாளர்கள், தொழில்நுட்ப கலைஞர்கள், உலக கலைஞர்களுக்கு சளைத்தவர்கள் அல்ல. வாய்ப்பு கிடைத்தால் ஆஸ்கரை வெல்லும் தகுதி நம்மவர்களுக்கு இருக்கிறது.

ஆங்கிலம் தெரிந்த தமிழ் இயக்குனர்கள், ஆஸ்கார் விருதுக்கான ஆங்கிலப் படங்களை எடுக்க வேண்டும் என்றார் வைரமுத்து.

http://thatstamil.oneindia.in/movies/specials/2009/02/26-rahman-to-compose-a-new-song-for-world-tamils.html#cmntTop

joe
26th February 2009, 01:41 PM
No matter how hard i try i'm never able to understand exactly what 'post-modern' means. I mean, dictionary ellam paathaachu but who is a post-modern man and how does he differ from 'man'? And what is post-modern music?

பின் நவீனத்துவம் என்றால் என்ன? -ன்னு ஒருத்தர் புத்தகமே போட்டிருக்கார். :lol:

http://anyindian.com/product_info.php?products_id=34713&osCsid=f8b9a2d4bbddd5418a29d2bde9d6b284

littlemaster1982
26th February 2009, 01:46 PM
An Oscar award is one given by members of the academy (American) to a 'piece' of art, which they have been exposed to, and which in their minds, is the best in that year. It does NOT mean that is necessarily the best work in the world that year, it does not mean those who have not got it are lesser beings, it does not mean it is the easiest thing in the world to do, nor does it mean it is NOT an international recognition or "just another award" (everybody who should know, knows the kind of avenues it opens and hence understand the magnitude of this achievement). [Best Foreign Language Film category vera matra categories vera, idhuvum note panna vendiya onnu, this is what is being referred to as "winning them at their own game"]. This is how i see it

Wish I could post like this. Thanks CR :thumbsup:

joe
26th February 2009, 01:48 PM
An Oscar award is one given by members of the academy (American) to a 'piece' of art, which they have been exposed to, and which in their minds, is the best in that year. It does NOT mean that is necessarily the best work in the world that year, it does not mean those who have not got it are lesser beings, it does not mean it is the easiest thing in the world to do, nor does it mean it is NOT an international recognition or "just another award" (everybody who should know, knows the kind of avenues it opens and hence understand the magnitude of this achievement). [Best Foreign Language Film category vera matra categories vera, idhuvum note panna vendiya onnu, this is what is being referred to as "winning them at their own game"]. This is how i see it

Wish I could post like this. Thanks CR :thumbsup:

I second this 8-)

joe
26th February 2009, 02:02 PM
CR,
இது குறித்த துணைக்கேள்வி ஒன்று ..ஆஸ்கார் என்பது ஒரேயொரு பிரிவைத் தவிர முழுக்க முழுக்க ஹாலிவுடில் படங்களுக்காக தர மதிப்பீட்டு விருது .ஆனால் அவ்வாறு இல்லாமல் உலகம் முழுவதும் இருந்து படங்கள் ஒரே போட்டியில் கலந்து கொள்ளும் விருதுகள் சில இருக்கின்றன .அவைகளுக்கில்லாத மதிப்பு ஹாலிவுட்டை மட்டும் மையமாக கொண்ட ஆஸ்கார் விருதுக்கு கிடைப்பது எதனால் ..ஹாலிவுட் படவுகலகம் உலக அளவில் வர்த்தகத்தில் முதலிடத்தில் இருப்பது தானா?

வர்த்தக ரீதியாக ஆஸ்கார் ஆக பிரபலமாக இருப்பதை புரிந்துகொள்ள முடிகிறது .ஆனால் அறிவிஜீவிகள் மத்தியில் ஆஸ்காரை விட அதிகமாக மதிக்கப்படும் உண்மையான சர்வதேச (மொழி வேறுபாடு இல்லாமல் அனைத்து படங்களும் ஒரே இடத்தில் போட்டி போடும்) விருது எதுவும் இருக்கிறதா?

Plum
26th February 2009, 02:10 PM
"No matter how hard i try i'm never able to understand exactly what 'post-modern' means. I mean, dictionary ellam paathaachu but who is a post-modern man and how does he differ from 'man'? And what is post-modern music?
"
:-)
Indha jargon throwing chuckers irukkangale...

crajkumar_be
26th February 2009, 02:14 PM
CR,
இது குறித்த துணைக்கேள்வி ஒன்று ..ஆஸ்கார் என்பது ஒரேயொரு பிரிவைத் தவிர முழுக்க முழுக்க ஹாலிவுடில் படங்களுக்காக தர மதிப்பீட்டு விருது .ஆனால் அவ்வாறு இல்லாமல் உலகம் முழுவதும் இருந்து படங்கள் ஒரே போட்டியில் கலந்து கொள்ளும் விருதுகள் சில இருக்கின்றன .அவைகளுக்கில்லாத மதிப்பு ஹாலிவுட்டை மட்டும் மையமாக கொண்ட ஆஸ்கார் விருதுக்கு கிடைப்பது எதனால் ..ஹாலிவுட் படவுகலகம் உலக அளவில் வர்த்தகத்தில் முதலிடத்தில் இருப்பது தானா?

Yes, i think so!



வர்த்தக ரீதியாக ஆஸ்கார் ஆக பிரபலமாக இருப்பதை புரிந்துகொள்ள முடிகிறது .ஆனால் அறிவிஜீவிகள் மத்தியில் ஆஸ்காரை விட அதிகமாக மதிக்கப்படும் உண்மையான சர்வதேச (மொழி வேறுபாடு இல்லாமல் அனைத்து படங்களும் ஒரே இடத்தில் போட்டி போடும்) விருது எதுவும் இருக்கிறதா?
Palm d'Or - Golden Palm, the highest award for competing international films in Cannes - enakku therinjavaraikkum idhu dhaan leading


Thats why i said "However, there is a difference between "Oscar is not international recognition" and "Oscar is not the ultimate international recognition" or "Oscar is not the ultimate recognition".
And in any case, i doubt if there ia a "higher" award for musical score. I don't think there is a music category in films festivals like Cannes, Berlin etc...

P.S: even in Cannes, nowadays a lot of Hindi/Indian films are being "premiered" (Aisuvariya Rai attendance etc) - not to be confused with competing films

Music exclusive-a paatha Grammy awards irukku, but adhuvum oru madhiri dhaan and doesn't include BGM score

rajasaranam
26th February 2009, 02:14 PM
Joe,

You have correctly observed that American imperialism and the economic reach of hollywood cinema has created a hype around 'Oscar'. apart from it there are many awards being given for 'world cinemas' and are considered meritorious amongst 'learned people', Cannes is one such award and namma Thalai Sivaji won it 40 years back as you know, later Yuvan shankar Raaja won it for the BG score in Ram.

nanchil_guy
26th February 2009, 02:15 PM
The europeans consider Golden Globe/canes as the best in the world.Not all of them consider Oscar as the world's best award.

crajkumar_be
26th February 2009, 02:17 PM
The europeans consider Golden Globe/canes as the best in the world.Not all of them consider Oscar as the world's best award.

:shock:
GG < Oscars

crajkumar_be
26th February 2009, 02:22 PM
பின் நவீனத்துவம் என்றால் என்ன? -ன்னு ஒருத்தர் புத்தகமே போட்டிருக்கார். :lol:

http://anyindian.com/product_info.php?products_id=34713&osCsid=f8b9a2d4bbddd5418a29d2bde9d6b284
Thanks :lol: (bayangaramaana book-a irukkum pola irukke!)

MrJudge
26th February 2009, 02:34 PM
Cannes is one such award and namma Thalai Sivaji won it 40 years back as you know, later Yuvan shankar Raaja won it for the BG score in Ram.

Yuvan won in Cyprus not Cannes. Did Sivaji win it? I doubt.

joe
26th February 2009, 02:36 PM
Cannes is one such award and namma Thalai Sivaji won it 40 years back as you know, later Yuvan shankar Raaja won it for the BG score in Ram.

Yuvan won in Cyprus not Cannes. Did Sivaji win it? I doubt.

NT won in Cairo ,Egypt. (Afro-Asian Film Festival )

MrJudge
26th February 2009, 02:39 PM
The europeans consider Golden Globe/canes as the best in the world.Not all of them consider Oscar as the world's best award.

:shock:
GG < Oscars

I don't know which is preferred by Europeans. But in the selection committees of GG majority are from British colonies (so usually artists from Europe/Australia bag GG awards)

rajasaranam
26th February 2009, 03:24 PM
No matter how hard i try i'm never able to understand exactly what 'post-modern' means. I mean, dictionary ellam paathaachu but who is a post-modern man and how does he differ from 'man'? And what is post-modern music?

The subject is a vast one and there will be limitations if I try to explain it in short, but lemme try :)

Post modernism is a philosophical premise which moved out of singularity in defining things and arrived at accepting the other and pluralism that is existing in our society. Post modernism saw the definitions for arts or things that were being given erstwhile were incomplete and are non-inclusive of the other aspects of the art/thing. under this premise the discussions in literary & philosophical circles went on until they concluded 'nothing can be defined completely and the understanding which arises at particular moments to individuals are more important than these definitions'. This gave raise to Surrealism, non-linearity, Magical Realism, and 'including the other' in arts and literature (Try reading Umberto Eco, Franz Kafka, Gabriel Garcia Marquez or our own Konangi, Prem-Ramesh, Suresh - aarambathula Konjam Thalai suththum but when you catch the thread just keep going. for start even 'Puthumai Pithan' would do - A genius who wrote non-linear and magical realism stories in 1920's!) ).

This philosophy caught the intellectuals in all spheres of arts & literature that it gave raise to a lot of works that are now called as post-modern works. The movies like Amores perros, 21 grams, babel, traffic, Crash, syrianna, lucky number slevin, pulp fiction are called post-modern movies due to its non-linear style of narrative.

most of the history and arts are being re-studied, de-constructed and re-written under the influence of this philosophy. Hence there are subaltern histories being written now. Lumpens, Gypsies and many other people who were till then denounced from mainstream arts and literature found a new space under PM'ism. To sumamrise PM'ism is about multi-dimensionality or pluralism that is existing in our society and it asks us to understand this aspect of life and live it.

A 'post modern man' pitted against 'man' as of our understanding is one who is being accepted for what he is and what he is not. Earlier we tried to understand a man through a common image that he creates in us... and when he strays away from that image we would shrug him of. For example When you or me are telling we are succumbing to a song on Lord Shiva the postmodern world is listening and accepting the other man inside us because we exist in pluralism. The understanding that a man can be this and that, a worker under capitalism and a supporter of communism, A proponent against bribery and gets a ticket in Black market for a FDFS and many more opposites are proving that we are living in a post-modern world. A Old/Modern world would've become outraged when Kamal says 'Naan aathiganum illai naathiganum illai' or when Karunanithi says 'Naanaathigan'. Yes there are still people around who believes in the old/modern world and go by singular(Tempting here that I write about particle physics but lemme constrain :oops: ) definitions (Like people who are still out there to to ridicule Periyaar that he had a pilliayaar statue at home, today we can question back 'Yaen naathiganna pillaiyar statue veetla vechukka koodatha? enakku antha bommai romba pudichirukku!) but by and large the world is changing its philosophical outlook. A post modern man is the one who is living in this post modern world and he is multi dimensional.

Post modern music is also a very big subject listen to 'Nothing but wind' title track and come back to me if you are not able to understand :)

PS: I reread the whole post, konjam thalai suthra mathiri thaan irukku, oru gunsa purinjikkitta sari athu thaan post-modernism :P

nanchil_guy
26th February 2009, 03:26 PM
The europeans consider Golden Globe/canes as the best in the world.Not all of them consider Oscar as the world's best award.

:shock:
GG < Oscars

I don't know which is preferred by Europeans. But in the selection committees of GG majority are from British colonies (so usually artists from Europe/Australia bag GG awards)

British trying to portray GG as the best in the world, for rest of the europe it is Cannes. Ofcourse Oscar does have its impact there but not to great extends.

Vivasaayi
26th February 2009, 03:36 PM
rajasaranam - thanks :)

so Pithamagan can be grouped under "Magical realism" and its a post modern movie...

Plum
26th February 2009, 03:45 PM
RS, enakkaennamo post-modern man, pre-modern man ellam gapsa maadhiri irukku. Certain social behavioural advances apart, man remains the same. If we are talking about societal acceptance of pluralism, it is still not there. Everywhere around me, I see that we have small groups everywhere. The majority is still part of "groups". A man accepting contradicting philosophies - asokar kaalathuleye illaiya? Apdi irundirundha, avan andha kaalathula irundha post-modernist man-a? mhm...oru padam gnabagam varadhu - oru priest, jaadhi maadham verupadu paarkama he teaches to various people, he is still the head priest of the thought-controlling body in the ooru, ivaroda widowed ponnu vera caste kaaranoda odi poyittu thirumba vara. The actions he takes after that is contradictory to his liberal beliefs so far. It doesnt take a moralistic view there(the movie) - so avaru post-modern man-aa? I am not able to explain but I got what that movie was trying to portray clearly in my mind(apdinu ninaichindirukkaen!)

Onnum theliva illai - I still think many people try to just throw jargon using post-modern etc.

Sureshs65
26th February 2009, 03:49 PM
RS,

I would love to take the dialogue forward but I guess this is not the right forum for it. Just to add to your list of movies, I would recommend 'Mullholand Drive' by David Lyne. Excellent post modern movie if I saw one.

Sureshs65
26th February 2009, 03:53 PM
Plum,

You are right about jargon throwing. We need to understand arts based on our own experience. If you need to read some theory and then only you can understand, I don't think that art will work. If you have an open enough mind you can get what the artist is trying to say without knowing anything about the jargon. I remember reading James Joyce novel called 'A Portrait of an artist as a young man' and getting the style he followed. Only much later did I know it was called 'Stream of Consciousness' technique!!!

rajasaranam
26th February 2009, 04:10 PM
rajasaranam - thanks :)

so Pithamagan can be grouped under "Magical realism" and its a post modern movie...

All Bala movies are post-modern movies only due to various reasons. One reason being it 'talks' about the other or excluded people of the society. You have rightly understood pithamagan as a post-modern movie because it had 'Magical realism' in it. :thumbsup: It delved into the subject of a primitive man who is living in the sub-conscious mind of us and transported him to interact with the other society consisting of lumpen and outlaws. A perfect text of post-modernism. Bala :notworthy:
Sadly again 'Charu Niveditha' announced the arrival of post-modern cinema to tamil via 'Puthupettai' as it talked about subaltern society. He always misses the point :P

rajasaranam
26th February 2009, 04:26 PM
Plum,

Post-modernism doesn't also tell a time period for the philosophical premise to exist. 'Arabian nights' written almost 12 centuries before is considered to be a postmodern text. Even 'Mahabharatha' with its wildly intertwining tales of multiple people (60,000 Characters it seems, hmmm.... Evanavathu karpanai panna mudiyuma intha epic'a?) is considered postmodern. Post-modernism is not only about the acceptance of other people. It is about the understanding of the underlying 'pluralism' in every aspect of the universe.
So if you want to think of 'Asoka's period as postmodern one there will be no qualms.
Yes for some it simply means 'jargon' throwing only. For me the philosophy has given immense understanding about life, culture and arts. 10 years back I would've never attempted to listen to a Religious album even if it was by Raaja. Yes the philosophy does gives a vague feeling like staring onto the sky without a point. But that is the whole point of the universe will be understood then. :)

Plum
26th February 2009, 04:44 PM
RS, okay, fine. I didnt mean you in particular as jargon throwing. Adhellam sari...
"10 years back I would've never attempted to listen to a Religious album even if it was by Raaja"
Idhu okay. But does it extend to Rahman:-) (just kidding..)

Plum
26th February 2009, 04:45 PM
BTW, if this is the definition of P-M,then JeMo's half-baked analysis on post-modern music in Tamil films is laughable.

rajasaranam
26th February 2009, 04:48 PM
RS,

I would love to take the dialogue forward but I guess this is not the right forum for it. Just to add to your list of movies, I would recommend 'Mullholand Drive' by David Lyne. Excellent post modern movie if I saw one.

Thanks for recommending this movie, would love (Naomi Watts :)) to watch. 'The finger man' by 'Jean-Pierre Melville' you gave me was also a non-linear narrative. 'Rashomon' 'The Killing' 'Citizen Kane' and many more movies were attempted in altering the way movie was narrated right from 50's and 60's Its only in 2000's we are Trying to make them in Indian cinema shows that we are 50 years behind world cinema :( (Ok there was 1 Andha naal in 50's sigh!)

PS: If needed lets take this post-modernism and cinema related talks to a different thread. Prabhuram, Joe are you around?!!

rajasaranam
26th February 2009, 04:56 PM
RS, okay, fine. I didnt mean you in particular as jargon throwing. Adhellam sari...
"10 years back I would've never attempted to listen to a Religious album even if it was by Raaja"
Idhu okay. But does it extend to Rahman:-) (just kidding..)

Definitely yes and I still listen to his music. Like When I listen to Religious compositions by Raaja and take only the musical essence of it leaving apart the 'Kadavul', I love Rahmans music for its richness and grandeur, but it makes me tired after sometime (Same with Yuvan, Harris etc.,) so I revert back to Raaja :) Devar magan'la kumuraloda oru dialogue varume 'Vera enga porathu naanga'?!!

rajasaranam
26th February 2009, 04:58 PM
BTW, if this is the definition of P-M,then JeMo's half-baked analysis on post-modern music in Tamil films is laughable.

Ithu ungalukku ellam puriya vaikirathukku thaan ivvalavu pakkam :oops:

kalnayak
26th February 2009, 06:58 PM
தோழர்களே விவாதத்திற்கு ஒரு IR - நண்பர் கொடுத்த வாக்குமூலத்தையும் பயன்படுத்துங்களேன். பாலு மகேந்திரா ARR க்கு வாக்களித்திருக்கிறார். அதை இங்கே படியுங்கள். http://thatstamil.oneindia.in/movies/specials/2009/02/25-the-secret-behind-rahman-first-national-award.html#cmntTop

Fliflo
26th February 2009, 07:34 PM
http://thatstamil.oneindia.in/movies/specials/2009/02/26-ilayaraja-is-above-oscars-ar-rahman.html

I can't understand what is happening. But everything is for good. This is how it has to be!

pure bliss
26th February 2009, 07:57 PM
flifo,

Ir ku ethuvum theva, ennamum thevaipadum!

ARR must not degrade his achivement by talking like this even though he is for peace and love. terrible i feel

Sanjeevi
26th February 2009, 08:08 PM
flifo,

Ir ku ethuvum theva, ennamum thevaipadum!

ARR must not degrade his achivement by talking like this even though he is for peace and love. terrible i feel

What do you mean?

ARR has spoken from his heart. It is a pity task to search inner meaing from his words.

Plum
26th February 2009, 08:12 PM
sanjeevi, pure_bliss-oda rendavadhu statement dhaan main. First statement red herring :-)

I hope this puts an end to Rahman bashers here and IR bashers, too. Idhukku mela idhai analyse panni, Rahman en idhai Los Angeles-laiye sollalai, inge vandhu dhaan sollanuma, apdinu ketkama irundha sari.

ananth222
26th February 2009, 08:22 PM
I'm sure ARR was simply responding to someones question abt IR - an honest and straightforward statement. No need to make a feud out of it.
"சரியான முறையி்ல் அவரது இசை எடுத்துச் செல்லப்பட்டிருந்தால் எப்போதோ அவர் ஆஸ்கர் விருதினை வென்றிருப்பார்"
thats what we all think anyway, and also more relevant to this thread.

app_engine
26th February 2009, 08:28 PM
I'm sure ARR was simply responding to someones question abt IR - an honest and straightforward statement. No need to make a feud out of it.
"சரியான முறையி்ல் அவரது இசை எடுத்துச் செல்லப்பட்டிருந்தால் எப்போதோ அவர் ஆஸ்கர் விருதினை வென்றிருப்பார்"
thats what we all think anyway, and also more relevant to this thread.

I have a hunch feeling that ARR sometimes reads TFM-DF and "replies" in his interview on some occasions:-)

Vivasaayi
26th February 2009, 08:36 PM
இளையராஜாவின் இசைக்கு முன்பு ஆஸ்கர் விருது மிகச் சாதாரணமானது. சர்வதேச எல்லைகளைக் கடந்தவர் இளையராஜா. ஆஸ்கர் விருதை விட உயர்ந்தது இளையராஜாவின் இசை என்று இசைப் புயல் ஏ.ஆர்.ரஹ்மான் கூறியுள்ளார்.


AR Rahman has put it in his simple words :clap:

ananth222
26th February 2009, 09:35 PM
I'm sure ARR was simply responding to someones question abt IR - an honest and straightforward statement. No need to make a feud out of it.
"சரியான முறையி்ல் அவரது இசை எடுத்துச் செல்லப்பட்டிருந்தால் எப்போதோ அவர் ஆஸ்கர் விருதினை வென்றிருப்பார்"
thats what we all think anyway, and also more relevant to this thread.

I have a hunch feeling that ARR sometimes reads TFM-DF and "replies" in his interview on some occasions:-)
yes, we are all convinced that these discussions only take place in this forum. The outside world hasn't a clue. And reporters NEVER ask difficult questions, nobody asks Sachin about Sourav, nobody asks DMK about ADMK, nobody asks Congress about BJP, nobody asks ARR about IR. Only the esteemed individuals on this hub can think of such comparisons. right?

app_engine
26th February 2009, 09:43 PM
ananth222,

I mentioned TFM-DF and not the current HUB. The "original" place on the whole internet for the beginning of IR v/s ARR discussions:-)

Also, I had a ":-)"

ajaybaskar
26th February 2009, 10:30 PM
If the discussion is about IR and his global recognition alone, I wouldn't have come to this thread in the first place.

What's the need for Rajasaranam to post his reply to whatever post/blog, belittling ARR's achievement? Praising IR is all fine but when it comes at the expense of ARR, why do I have to keep quiet?

And, thanks for the politeness Irir123. I'm touched.

LM, Do we have to care about some illogical statements posted here and there? The world's best composer has already been recognised on the 22nd and let us cheer about it. Why unnecessarily spoil your mood? We have lots of work to be done and let us concentrate on the same. :wink:

popeye11
26th February 2009, 10:53 PM
I'm sure ARR was simply responding to someones question abt IR - an honest and straightforward statement. No need to make a feud out of it.
"சரியான முறையி்ல் அவரது இசை எடுத்துச் செல்லப்பட்டிருந்தால் எப்போதோ அவர் ஆஸ்கர் விருதினை வென்றிருப்பார்"

Although this a fact. This coming from ARR.. shows his perunthanmai.. :clap: :notworthy:

viraajan
26th February 2009, 11:07 PM
I'm sure ARR was simply responding to someones question abt IR - an honest and straightforward statement. No need to make a feud out of it.
"சரியான முறையி்ல் அவரது இசை எடுத்துச் செல்லப்பட்டிருந்தால் எப்போதோ அவர் ஆஸ்கர் விருதினை வென்றிருப்பார்"

Wow.... Great to hear.... :bow:

Yes. That's true!!!

eagle
26th February 2009, 11:45 PM
eagle,
A marquez, borge or Kafka work are coming under 'post modern' analogy not because of the authors but because of the textual style that they have adapted. Similary a Raaja work or a Rahman work are to be considered to be called a post modern work considering the merits of the work alone


RS,
I have mentioned in my post about postmodernism :D in the various fields like literature, architecture, painting etc., In each of these fields the the definition of postmodernism varies for example in architecture the modernism movement is about "form follows function" and "less is more" approach that resulted in building designs which are geometrical shapes without ornamental additions. later postmodernism movement declared going back to the roots and employed a lot of ornamental designs and stylistic references.

Likewise in painting postmodernism definition is different from architecture. In the literature its the "author is dead" and "The essential meaning of a work depends on the impressions of the reader, rather than the "passions" or "tastes" of the writer"

The problem is you are literally applying literature :D definition to music also. Thats the reason i said Jemo is trying to come up with a idea about postmodernism in music but of late i stumled upon this

"Eclecticism and freedom of expression, in reaction to the rigidity and aesthetic limitations of modernism, are the hallmarks of the postmodern influence in musical composition"

and some other info like

"Composers such as Terry Riley, John Adams, Steve Reich, Phillip Glass, and Lou Harrison reacted to the perceived elitism and dissonant sound of atonal academic modernism by producing music with simple textures and relatively consonant harmonies. Some composers have been openly influenced by popular music and world ethnic musical traditions."

Now this reinforces my conviction that Rahman is a postmodern musician.

Now let me get little deep into the issue in relation to our composers. I feel Raja's compositions by and large falls into the rigid structure ( people with knowledge in music please forgive... this a novice in music but grew up listened to rajas and formed this theory) why i say this bcos even if its the first time iam hearing any rajas composition i can almost by heart guess music pattern he is going to follow it may b a instrument or a piece of violin bit etc., and i dont think is a mean achievement its like what rahman recently said "his music is almost permeates your body" i wud say both body and mind.

Rahman consciously avoided the raja's approach (its a different question that he did that thing in all his songs... thats no in my view) looking back there were 2 reasons i hated rahmans music one is very obivious that he dethroned my favourite composer second reason which i can clearly see now is his approach, to a conditioned mind its not simply palatable. Moreover soon he began to repeat so more reason to avoid his music.

But he gave some simply unpredictable compositions the ones that comes to mind immediately from "thiruda thiruda" like "veerapandi kottaiyiley" and some other songs.

Well as for your contention that raaja too was postmodern yes i agree... man EVK is pure experimental music that can never be matched by any of his popular hits... such unpredictable interludes such a freedom of expression... alas no takers... not even by raja fans... so he soon went back to his groove... till today i consider his unfinished diamonds are far more worthier than his complete music, the ones many says nothing can be added and nothing can be taken out... simply bcos the possibilities are staggering thats imagination at its best... so he too was postmodern but for a brief while like a flicker in his long career and phenomenal output.

finally i also agree somewhat to Jemo's view like inclusiveness and acting as a medium about postmodernism in music particularly Rahmans... in SDM alone traks like "gangsta blues" and "dreams on fire" i can see the direct influences other musicians.. :)

Now what u say about instruments and musical styles losing their identity and merging themselves in rajas music?

Charu says he romanticize the folk music by playing guitar... thats quite opposite to what i felt... didnt i lose myself in his music to note these details?... :lol:

kr
27th February 2009, 07:38 AM
eagle:

"veerapandi kottayile" that you have quoted - that type was composed by IR in one of his very early movies - "Etham Konda Rasvae" from Pagalil oru Iravu

ajithfederer
27th February 2009, 07:41 AM
Third this!!!



An Oscar award is one given by members of the academy (American) to a 'piece' of art, which they have been exposed to, and which in their minds, is the best in that year. It does NOT mean that is necessarily the best work in the world that year, it does not mean those who have not got it are lesser beings, it does not mean it is the easiest thing in the world to do, nor does it mean it is NOT an international recognition or "just another award" (everybody who should know, knows the kind of avenues it opens and hence understand the magnitude of this achievement). [Best Foreign Language Film category vera matra categories vera, idhuvum note panna vendiya onnu, this is what is being referred to as "winning them at their own game"]. This is how i see it

Wish I could post like this. Thanks CR :thumbsup:

I second this 8-)

Sureshs65
27th February 2009, 09:05 AM
eagle,

Nice writeup.

I am not discussing post modernism here but one aspect that you had mentioned. That you can follow and guess the pattern that Raja is going to play. I actually have a completely opposite experience. While in general I may know how Raja would sound, I cannot follow the tune because I find Raja's thinking about a raga very unpredictable. For example, I was listening to 'Kottaram Kettile' from the Malayalam movie, Friends. This is based on Kalyani and as such must have been simple to predict given that Kalyani has been used so many time by so many people. But when Raja's tune suddenly descends at 'Sriragam', I am taken aback. The overall structure of a ragam that Raja throws up is not very predictable from my experience. I feel the same with the past masters, be it MSV, KVM in Tamil or Roshan, Madanmohan, Salil in Hindi showing us new facets of a familiar raga.

Whereas the ragam that is given by Rahman or Vidyasagar runs on predictable lines many a times. When there is some unpredictability involved, it is generally at the cost of the raga, that is the song now has totally deviated from the raga. What I have observed is the music directors after Raja work on a well known and predictable shape of the raga but enhance it with a very western orchestration. This gives the listener the familiarity of the raga added to the 'newness' of the orchestration. Examples could be songs like 'En Veetu Thotatil', 'Alankuyil Koovayile', 'Katre En Vaasal'. Nice songs all of them but fall in the category that I had described.

This is just an observation and not to say which one is better.