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Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
Topic started by Ram (@ 61.8.144.98) on Tue Nov 30 10:32:02 EST 2004.


Chanced to see this discussion on Illayaraja in an American forum:

http://www.jwfan.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=6161&sid=0424a2fd38c036e750b14e96d1f7e35d

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
:-/ It's nothing. As usual it has all kinds of off-topic profane nonsense.

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
Haha. Looks like an IR fanatic from here went there and posted about IR. It is easy to identify as only a tfm IR fanatic wud use words like "The greatest film music composer ever". Anyway he got the treatment he deserved.

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
Guess Me, nice to see you happy. After all happiness is a cure-all :)

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
embarassment

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
WAT WAS TAT!

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
Thevaiya..idhu...

IR for them is like what JW is for me...at least I know JW...but what do those guys know about IR...As for the outside world an artist called IR has not been born...May TIS if marketed well and patronised by Govt bring his name into fore.

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
hahaha...good joke.....our person(who started this topic there) is talking abt. 750 movies but how many can he disply for arguement.....not even 10-12.......

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
why Ram...? why?

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
thevaya ethu.

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
ippadi yosinge!!john wiliams < namma IR..eppadi irruku?

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
Please, JW is not all that great.
So what if he wins 5 Oscars or has countless Grammy nominations. Ppl only recognise him coz of his close association with Spielberg/Lucas. Any body heard of Fitwilly? Heidi? or The Cowboys. I doubt so. You ask ppl what u like abt JW and they will say the same ol' answer: SW, Superman, Jaws, Raiders. Try asking about Jerry Goldsmith and you will get a very varied answer.

Soundtrack listeners know who the genius is between these two(ie .JW and JG). AND THE REASON I BROUGHT UP JG IS 'COZ ONLY HE CAN BE COMPARED TO IR. Both are versatile and prolific and most important of all they excel in whatever genre their music/movies are set in. Another similarity between JG and IR is that their fans world over are still listening to their music from 40 years ago till date and 25 years ago till date respectively.

Btw, for those who think Star Wars or Superman theme is 'wow', try listening to King's Row.

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
arr is hopeless, JW is not great, oscar and grammy are dumb recognition.

IR RULZ THE WORLD.

Hmmmm.

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
:)

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
its futile attempt.....

how can one make an american convice so easily that a composer that american never heard about is greater than their john williams ..who for americans is what IR is for tamilians .........

very difficult

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
"The greatest film composer ever"

With due respect to the creative genius of IR, one can't vie for such accolades when he has inspirations from symphonies, Boney M, etc.
This is sheer fallacy.

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
ambleen,

u mentioned abt who will remember this and remember that...
but it's good to know tat..u remember all those....

:)

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
I do not expect the westerners to appreciate IR's music simply for one reason.... they don't have any knowledge about our traditional form of music. If you ask someone to like HTNI, then that someone should have adequate knowledge of both western and our classical music, right? Those westerners are not the judges of world music... We should be proud that IR understood both forms of music and he blended them so well in HTNI and NBW. It's our treasure and their's.

If westerners (or Indians living abroad ?) appreciate ARR's music, that's because what ARR produces is mostly their music and not our music and so they have something they can relate to.

The fact is that we Indians can appreciate both carnatic music and western classicals such as Beetovan's and Bach etc... but they can't. If the westerners can't appreciate Thyagaraja's kritis, do you blame Thyagara for that? it's only their lack of knowledge and awareness..

We know more about music than the westerns and so don't judge the talent of IR or any other Indian composers based on their openion..

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
corr: It's our treasure and NOT their's.

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
Well said cho...Sounds logic...Ir is great for us...and let that be so always.

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
I perfectly agree with that cho.......There's no way they will understand IR and tamil music.....well if it is understood by them, then it is a shame for us isn'it???is tamil so easy for them to understand???it shuldn't be.....ARR's recognition carries more weight in this context cos he is one indian who can give their type of music too......but,they can never give a annakili or dil se......

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
So Cho, are you saying that traditional Indian music is off-limits for Western non-Indians, and they can't possibly appreciate it?? Is that to say that Western people are that pathetic that they can be content with the junk that they term music and label real music junk? Come on guys!! Don't be so low-minded! Be more open to different musical cultures! This isn't the middle ages where each nation is almost strictly segregated from all the rest of the world; this is the twenty-first century, where people are actively associating with people of different ethnicities. (I'm also saying this to myself, strangely enough)


Well, I have faith that our music is not at all inferior in any way. If Western non-Indians call our music 'trash' and their rap, techno and heavy-metal 'music', then it's THEIR low-mindedness and stupidity.

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
Actually, if we're serious about introducing to those Westerners IR's music, they must first be introduced to IR's music that is like the music they're used to. In this way, they will gradually want to explore Indian music further. Guys, this is the way that it works, and as long as 'it' is our treasure, why not share it with the rest of the world? Why do we have to enjoy it all ourselves at the exclusion of the rest of the world??

It's just like, His Holiness A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami came to America to preach the message of Lord Sri Chaitanya. Some Westerners took well to his preaching and ISKCON, and others did not. But note that a number of them DID. The teachings of Bhagavad-Gita and Srimad-Bhagavatham are treasures of India, and yet some Westerners are taking well to it. So Cho, you are only referring to those Westerners who are full of themselves, puffed up with ethnocentrism.

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
As a westerner who *is* aware of Ilayaraja, I'm enjoying this discussion! : )

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
purv,

I think you missed the point that I tried to make. pl read it again where I said that we Indians can appreciate both indian and western music but they can't. In that I basically meant that we are open to diffent music culture. Did I anywhere imply that our music is inferior? Their clasical form of music is not junk and our's not junk either.. All I said was that only for those who know little bit of both forms or atleast have an open mind for music can appreciate an album like HTNI bcos HTNI is nothing but those forms together. And Most of IR's stuff has a touch of western classical with indian folk and carnatic form of music. Some of his songs are like mini katcheris... you know what I mean.

Westerners live in their own world for thousands of years.. (for most of the americans, they don't even know how it is like outside California :) You cannot preach IR's music to them... or make them listen to MSS's Meera bhajan... Yes, I am not referring to all the western people in general. In fact, I played IR's 'Eatho moham' and his violin piece from Raja parvai to some of my colleagues at work and they really enjoyed it and later I gave them IR's HTNI CD as gifts and told them to keep it as a treasure. Like you said, it maybe possible for some one with the calibre of Swami Bhaktivedanta to spread IR's music in their world. But is there anybody willing to do that job?

Music is very much tied to culture.. Leave alone world music and IR for now... First of all we can't even make our northies to appreciate our carnatic music over their hindustani music...and what can we say about film songs that are based on these 2 forms ? Even in this thread, ask how many people can appreciate 'Kalaivaaniye' from Sindhu bhairavi and 'Ennai enna seidhai' from Ivan?

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
tk2,
please feel free to participate and share your thoughts with us :)

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
Sorry Cho, I got a little carried away. To be honest, I wasn't even sure of what I was saying.

Anyway, spreading IR's music isn't half as important as AC Bhaktivedanta Swami's task was. So it doesn't really matter. I mean, that guy brought the treasure of *SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE* with him. Whereas if one were to spread IR's music, totally disregarding the talent of other Indian composers, then that would be promoting an ordinary man to the status of God, which would be blasphemous. All in all, I think I'll have to take back comparing IR to Lord Chaitanya.

Lastly, not all Western music is junk, no doubt. I can listen to some Rock (soft or hard), Country, Reggae or R&B without any complaints. I do respect the Western music culture, but as I said before, I got a little too passionate.


Regards,
purv

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
ROTFL :-)))

Nanbargale, idhu too much pa. John Williams site-ku poi IR best-nu poll vera vechuteengale!! :-)))
Yaaruppa andha Election Commissioner? I will send TN Seshan to you for tuition - so that he can conduct elections in Bihar/Kashmir.

The experience gained by 100 IR-ARR threads has not been wasted.

Hey, why cant the ARR fan who said "Mozart is the ARR of Europe" go there? It is my dream to see IR-ARR war on neutral venue(like India Pakistan in Sharjah) :-)

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
hehehewalrus,ARR fans carry a bit more stuff between 2 ears...........hey guys here must note that IR is not even popular with our own countrymen..... so i think work shuld start here rite in India.........

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
Why all this hoopla about who is greater or which music is superior? No music greater than the other..If one likes a particular music or composer it is his greatest..not for everyone..Let people judge in their own interests and tastes and choose..Surely one may be anxious that many in the world are missing out some of the beautiful compositions of IR, but so be it..IR is my most favorite, but that does not give me qualifications to start comparing the great musicians..One would actually end up spoiling the name of IR or someother composer. One can compare the musical styles and skills but has to be careful not to imply that someone is superior to someone else...

Having said that, I think one can make great contribution to the forum like this if one expresses why he likes a particular form of music by lot of introsepction..What makes a particular form of music click to someone...the musical patterns..complexity of compositions..styles..romantic, inspirational, upbeat, devotional, spiritual, gloomy, despair etc.

I think one may have hard time justifying entirely that even Mozart is the greatest composer of WCM if you listen to all his predecessors like Hayden, Handel, Vivaldi, Rossini, Scarletti, Bach, Telemann etc. Mozart is considered the most prolific composer, but not the greatest..(I guess it depends on what is the meaning of "greatest"--most songs composed? yougest composer? most diverse compositions? longest living in history? However, Mozart is clearly prodigious, because of composing many at the youngest age and writing concertos, quartets and quintets, symphonies and operas pretty much with all kinds of insruments. So there is a distint sytle, melody and perkiness in Mozart that is clearly distinct from many composers. But many Baroque composers have created much more wonderful pieces of music.. Likewise, if you listen to Telemann, the 16th century composer, he is appropriately called the king of Baroque (as much as Bach may be thought of king of baroque, but this does much disservice to Bach and Vivaldi) beacuse of his extensive use of violin, oboe, horn and trumpets expressing the musical temperaments of classical era in mumerous concertos. Listening to Telemann's horn and trumpet concertos one could say he is the prolific composer using these instruments in that era. In US, classical stations are pleasantly rediscovering this composer (You are likely to listen to Telemann in seattle's classical radio station, King FM--also broadcast in internet--www.kingfm.org)in classical radio stations which are known to repeat the ubiquitous Mozart, Bach, Vivaldi etc.

BTW, if you listen to some of the Mozart symphonies, there is heavy influence of Hayden's symphonic style. People say Hayden is the King of Symphonies, because he composed well over 100 symphonies..and many other composers tended to imitate his style including Mozart. There may be some truth to this..listening to Hayden may make you feel indeed that he is the King os symphonies. This is probabably true, because he is said to have the most in numbers in terms of symphonies and have made a fortune licensing his music to be played all over Europe during his time. BTW, Mozart had reportedly called Hayden the King of Symphonies..and hence the adage continues to this day..

There are pieces of Dresden Concerti by Johann Heinichen that I think may blow even Mozart away in terms of muscical ingenuity and creativity..but just a few concertos..Many in WCM have not even heard of Heinichen..

Now, IR is perhaps the most prolific and most diverse composer, as much as MSV, that it is a blessing that has happened to TFM. Any prolific composer is bound to leave some crap, beacuse of experimentation and lack of time for a leisurely composition. There are numerous pieces of WCM that one would not even like to listen to, the second time.

I get as much fun listening to IR (selectively) as I listen to Telemann, Mozart, Bach etc. That does not mean that IR or others the greatest. I think the most humble thing one can state is that it is amazing that how IR can compose such beautifull songs (I am ignoring is crappy songs) with as much prolificity as some of the WCM composers and our own MSV. There is no need to agree or disagree with anyone else whether he is superior or inferior to anyone...Such things are excercises in futility and mars some productive discussions that people may want to share..

Let me not forget.. it is also a blessing that ARR has arrived..He is as much talented as MSV, IR..I do not think that there is any doubt.

Just my few cents..

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
Why all this hoopla about who is greater or which music is superior? No music greater than the other..If one likes a particular music or composer it is his greatest..not for everyone..Let people judge in their own interests and tastes and choose..Surely one may be anxious that many in the world are missing out some of the beautiful compositions of IR, but so be it..IR is my most favorite, but that does not give me qualifications to start comparing the great musicians..One would actually end up spoiling the name of IR or someother composer. One can compare the musical styles and skills but has to be careful not to imply that someone is superior to someone else...

Having said that, I think one can make great contribution to the forum like this if one expresses why he likes a particular form of music by lot of introsepction..What makes a particular form of music click to someone...the musical patterns..complexity of compositions..styles..romantic, inspirational, upbeat, devotional, spiritual, gloomy, despair etc.

I think one may have hard time justifying entirely that even Mozart is the greatest composer of WCM if you listen to all his predecessors like Hayden, Handel, Vivaldi, Rossini, Scarletti, Bach, Telemann etc. Mozart is considered the most prolific composer, but not the greatest..(I guess it depends on what is the meaning of "greatest"--most songs composed? yougest composer? most diverse compositions? longest living in history? However, Mozart is clearly prodigious, because of composing many at the youngest age and writing concertos, quartets and quintets, symphonies and operas pretty much with all kinds of insruments. So there is a distint sytle, melody and perkiness in Mozart that is clearly distinct from many composers. But many Baroque composers have created much more wonderful pieces of music.. Likewise, if you listen to Telemann, the 16th century composer, he is appropriately called the king of Baroque (as much as Bach may be thought of king of baroque, but this does much disservice to Bach and Vivaldi) beacuse of his extensive use of violin, oboe, horn and trumpets expressing the musical temperaments of classical era in mumerous concertos. Listening to Telemann's horn and trumpet concertos one could say he is the prolific composer using these instruments in that era. In US, classical stations are pleasantly rediscovering this composer (You are likely to listen to Telemann in seattle's classical radio station, King FM--also broadcast in internet--www.kingfm.org)in classical radio stations which are known to repeat the ubiquitous Mozart, Bach, Vivaldi etc.

BTW, if you listen to some of the Mozart symphonies, there is heavy influence of Hayden's symphonic style. People say Hayden is the King of Symphonies, because he composed well over 100 symphonies..and many other composers tended to imitate his style including Mozart. There may be some truth to this..listening to Hayden may make you feel indeed that he is the King os symphonies. This is probabably true, because he is said to have the most in numbers in terms of symphonies and have made a fortune licensing his music to be played all over Europe during his time. BTW, Mozart had reportedly called Hayden the King of Symphonies..and hence the adage continues to this day..

There are pieces of Dresden Concerti by Johann Heinichen that I think may blow even Mozart away in terms of muscical ingenuity and creativity..but just a few concertos..Many in WCM have not even heard of Heinichen..

Now, IR is perhaps the most prolific and most diverse composer, as much as MSV, that it is a blessing that has happened to TFM. Any prolific composer is bound to leave some crap, beacuse of experimentation and lack of time for a leisurely composition. There are numerous pieces of WCM that one would not even like to listen to, the second time.

I get as much fun listening to IR (selectively) as I listen to Telemann, Mozart, Bach etc. That does not mean that IR or others the greatest. I think the most humble thing one can state is that it is amazing that how IR can compose such beautifull songs (I am ignoring is crappy songs) with as much prolificity as some of the WCM composers and our own MSV. There is no need to agree or disagree with anyone else whether he is superior or inferior to anyone...Such things are excercises in futility and mars some productive discussions that people may want to share..

Let me not forget.. it is also a blessing that ARR has arrived..He is as much talented as MSV, IR..I do not think that there is any doubt.

Just my few cents..

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
Really good insight, Mr. Ravichandran. Wish I had your depth of insight. ;-)

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
HI All!
Ravi has hit the nail on its head with his posting. I hope that people who always put down either IR or ARR, would think atleast twice before doing so after his(ravi's) posting. Coming back to the original point, IR in WCM is as good as IR in CCM(Carnatic Classical Music). He has composed original krithis and has also invented a new Raga called "panchamukhi". If I am correct, Dr Bala Murali Krishna has created a few ragas, and so has Shri Maharajapuram Santhanam and in hndustani Shri Amjad Ali Khan (Raaga name is Rajiv after the slain PM). That too is no ordinary achievment. wonder why no IR fan is talking about that with the same awe that they award to IR's Symphonies and Oratarios. Hoping that one day ARR would release himself of even the A.L. Webers and Shekar Kapurs and move on to pure classical music(of any form). When IR says that he was born to do TiO, I feel happy that he still feels that he has to do something wholeheartedly and there are people supporting him. Same way I hope ARR too gets the same kind of opportunities.

Thanks,
Jaiganesh

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
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Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
Purv, Jaiganesh, Thanks for your kind acknowledgement.

I would recommend TFM fans, particularly IR fans to listen to composers of Baroque music..IMHO, I think it would be a long long time before music in countries like India reach such level of musical enlightenment provided by Baroque compositions.

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
Cudn't help admiring your posting and its insight Ravi. Probably to have this kind of an insight it needs that the music and its taste shud've grown in you. All fans of IR would surely appreciate and we all would wish that IR would one day try to equal the feat of those geniuses before him.

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
Thanks Ram (@ 61.8.144.98) for providing this link.
I am extremely happy to see our dearest IR discussed in John Williams Fan Network..!!

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
*hahaha...good joke.....our person(who started this topic there) is talking abt. 750 movies but how many can he disply for arguement.....not even 10-12.......*

That's still far better than still struggling to do 1 movie year after year and still sounding familiar to everything in this world.

Oldposts
26th December 2004, 08:00 AM
ML...but that man sells...that's the point.
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Observer_Is_Back
2nd January 2005, 03:28 AM
Prashanth:

"I am extremely happy to see our dearest IR discussed in John Williams Fan Network..!!"


Why oh why do you need the approval of the John Williams network? What do they know about our music? What will their mere mentioning of IR give us, or do for us? Would you be as excited if a Pakistani forum discussed IR? Or Bangladeshi? Is this all about social climbing?

netfriend4u2005
8th January 2005, 07:43 PM
>> That's still far better than still struggling to do 1 >> movie year after year and still sounding familiar to
>> everything in this world.

Well I know what is the msg here. But did u see what happends when that yr/s goes into drain which happens many time ??.