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app_engine
26th August 2006, 03:35 AM
I was surprised to see that there's no thread in the NEW IR forum on this topic...May be another identity crisis for 'nAttupuRaththil piRandhu nagaram peyarndha' DF'ers:-)

In any case, listening to the `katta vaNdi' (after a very long time)has prompted me to start a new thread for this. Interestingly today while going through some test results, I had this on the head phone...the boss came and shook me up telling " Hey I caught you dancing"...Apparently he called a couple of times from behind and I didn't answer, while shaking the body a bit...

A very polished folk song...especially the majestic synth guitar sounds used as replies to 'nalla vaNdi....pAradi puLLa...ukki pOttu...ERadi puLLa' is out of the world...(as also in the prelude and the 2nd interlude)...

And the very special chords and bass sounds through out...look for the lack of these during the `durrrrrA, durrrrA' in the third interlude and the magical effect it creates by joining when `yEh kikki-pukki' is sung...

Nakeeran
26th August 2006, 03:09 PM
App Sirrrrr

Damn sure, U must be anticipating my call :lol:


As another IR fan amongst crores of his, I too will vouch for this. :wink:

However, dont u think that during IR's early days, there were lots of village oriented movies WHICH WAS ALSO A TREND DURING THAT PERIOD , which also enabled him to compose more folk songs ??

Given some chances, all MDs of yesteryears have done exceedingly well .

MSV's Endee muthamma & Thalayam poomudichi still on my ears Reengaramidigindrana

Not to forget KVM's Mama mama & various other songs

Even Chandrabose had - Maampove siru mainave & engamma magarasi

Shankar ganesh combo were very popular for some folk compos.


Still Raja rulez finally as THE NUMBERS ARE MORE

My choice for the best album will be KARAGATTAKARAN :D

app_engine
27th August 2006, 02:22 AM
Good observations, Nakkeeran sir!

However, there are many misconceptions about IR's achievements in popularising Thamizh folk music and you've mentioned one of them...

"during IR's early days, there were lots of village oriented movies "...

Village movies were always there aplenty in TF...in fact, the whole TN was like a country side (with few exceptions like metro chennai) before 25 years and almost any storyline that had an average TN background can be easily considered a village movie. That apart, what about the rAjA rANi movies? Who prevented using folk scores there? avanga enna americA'layA arasAtchi seidhAnga?

And Raja never bothered whether it's a village movie or not, to use his folk scores. `adiyE manam nillunnA nikkAdhedi', 'thaNNiththotti thEdi vandha kannukkutty', 'mArugO mArugO' ippadi 100's of examples can be given.

And he has scored a number of movies in his early years that can fit to any situation - village or town and excelled in each and every one of them.

Another popular misconception goes like this...'Because IR was from a village, he could do better than others in village music'.

Enunga, MSV sir poRandhu vaLandha `elappully' a.k.a. `pARa'ngara oorukku pOirukkeengaLA? It's in Palakkad district even today as a village...(In fact till recently, Palakkad Town itself looked like a village only, with complete folkish culture). KVM sir's Nagerkoil area (i.e. before 50, 60 years) endha metropolis'la irundhuchchu? Shankar-Ganesh ellAm metro Chennai'yA? illa americA'la irundhu vandhAngaLA? Rajendar's MAyavaram aka mayilAdu dhuRai was still looking like a village (culturally) when I visited in 1981, i.e. few years after the release of oru dhalai rAgam. Not only MD's, a number of popular cine artists of yesteryears were from countryside but aped modern...

Even till recently, most of the towns in TN had parts of them running like villages only. (simple example, mEttuppatty which is part of Dindigul town, a dist HQ, was still exactly run like a village with kOil, thiruvizhA, kadA vettu, Adu-mAdu, vayal etc. with families who had `nAttAmai' in previous generations still wielding some authority and even called so...a number of my relatives are still there, with a lot of aunties / pAtties without blouses and having heavy `kundalam's make their ear long like man vAsanai Gandhimathi)

I look at these (and similar) statements as veiled efforts to take away credit from the great achievements of a master artist. The biggest comedy was the statement that Dr Pushpavanam Kuppusamy made in an interview to `thendRal' last year during his visit to U.S. ( 'thendRal' is a magazine popular in north america)...claiming something like he is the main cause of popularity of folk music in TN and only 'recently' cine field is attempting to use some folk:-))

MADDY
27th August 2006, 09:40 AM
though IR was a genius in WCM orchestration and Carnatic music, during late 80's he was into Dappangutthu a lot.......this excessive dose of dappangutthu made a entire generation (like me) shift to ARRahman........

no brickbats pls... :wink: .....my honest opinion.....

kameshratnam
27th August 2006, 12:30 PM
MADDY..given an opp. u take dig on IR..for heavensake can we stop it.u are free to move to a r rahman.tommorow somone can come and say that i moved away from a r r because of the over compuyterization of music..Leave it mate...if u can contribute something positve..pls do.. again u have every right to air to comments but pls dont dig at IR everytime..u see a new Post

On behalf of all IR Fans...I today agree the A R Rahman was the best ever born Music director/composer..Happy..leave us all IR Fans alone


"Dappangutthu" has got a lot in it. Even today whenever a hindu deity is taken out in procession, its lead by a dappanguthu team.

Dont under estimate. In villages its popular even today. The so called educated who lived in the cities didnt like it because they taught it was a BAD SOUND.

kiru
27th August 2006, 01:53 PM
Hello App,
I am with Nakeeran on the # of rustic movies. My impression is most of Gemini, MGR, Sivaji movies were set in a city/town/middle class atmosphere. During IR's days, with the advent of bharathi raja, movies were set more in villages. If I remember right BR is credited for taking the movies 'outdoors'. A green/verdant country side is much better looking on screen as well. Re: IR's background I think it is surely different from MSV or KVM's. I am pretty sure MSV, KVM grew up with carnatic music. IR grew up with rustic folk music. The good thing is our folk music is not very different from Carnatic. IR was able to catch up later on this. Actually, he caught up very well. If MSV and KVM gave great melodies based on Carnatic. IR figured out the source or 'fountain-head' of melodies in the indian system of raagams. Actually, I think, by now, he 'knows' MUSIC. The kind of insight one gets when you understand the fundamentals. (Like the way, Einstein might have felt when he discovered Relativity, I am not exaggerating).
IR gave folk melodies and tribal rhythms based on first hand experience and just like the strong MSV/KVM's carnatic tinged melodies, IR's folk melodies come out polished and heartfelt after a considerable amount of 'internalisation'.

kiru
27th August 2006, 02:01 PM
though IR was a genius in WCM orchestration and Carnatic music, during late 80's he was into Dappangutthu a lot.......this excessive dose of dappangutthu made a entire generation (like me) shift to ARRahman........

no brickbats pls... :wink: .....my honest opinion.....

I thought Rahman also did dappanguthu but just that it sounds different :)
(sorry, Rahman is a great music director, but could not resist this. take it in good humor)

tvsankar
27th August 2006, 06:10 PM
Dear app,

Rajini songs dhan niraiya ninaivil varugiradhu.

1. Solli adipenadi -- Padikadhavan

2.Machanai paradi -- Thanga magan

3. Vaadi vechalai -- Veera

4.asai nooru vagai -- Adutha varisu

4. Rakku muthu raaku -- Ejaman ( Endha topic patri sonnalum indha paatai enaku solla thonum.)

2 songs from Mohan

1. Yei atha athorama variya -- Payangangal mudivadhillai

2. Kavidhai padu kuyilae -- Thendralae ennai thodu

----------
Kadai thengayo vazhi pullaiyaro -- Satam en kaiyil (Soft ana first duppanguthu from IR i think )

En jodi manaja kuruvi -- Vikram

With Love,
Usha Sankar.

MADDY
27th August 2006, 06:14 PM
MADDY..given an opp. u take dig on IR..for heavensake can we stop it.u are free to move to a r rahman.tommorow somone can come and say that i moved away from a r r because of the over compuyterization of music..Leave it mate...if u can contribute something positve..pls do.. again u have every right to air to comments but pls dont dig at IR everytime..u see a new Post

"Dappangutthu" has got a lot in it. Even today whenever a hindu deity is taken out in procession, its lead by a dappanguthu team.

Dont under estimate. In villages its popular even today. The so called educated who lived in the cities didnt like it because they taught it was a BAD SOUND.

dude, relax.......read my post again, i have appreciated IR......read my posts in Shiva thread.....i post very rarely in IR's section, so ur accusation that i dig at IR again & again is untrue....

kiru, true but thankfully ARR didnt overdo it :D .....btw, is dappanguththu - official folk genre of tamilnadu??

app_engine
27th August 2006, 06:51 PM
"during late 80's he was into Dappangutthu a lot"...Maddy, may be you noticed at that time period, but the amount of folk dosage was more in the initial years than later, IMHO.

OK, are not `rAkkammA kaiyaththattu' and `kAttukkuyilu manasukkuLLa' folk songs (ofcourse as always with some other ingradients added...even the very first `machchAnappAththeengaLA' had nice chord progressions)?

Do you really think songs like that will make one move away from the composer? ...

ezy0265
27th August 2006, 07:54 PM
Dear Friends

please leave the fellow MADDY alone. He is a nonsensical crab-talker who usually comes up with such statements just when he is too bored.

Also he is suffering from post SOK syndrome, as the much hyped ARR presentation has produced at most 2 good songs, one mediocre and the rest total flops. Munbe Vaa supposed to be national anthem!!!??? HYpe alone is not going to create a good song somehow these people will realize soon. New York is reminding of Goodbye Nanba in the humming, and worst still when my chinese friend came into my car and the song was on, he said he thought it was Sting at first. Then I realised too that is the reason the song sounded so familiar to me on first listening. He has borrowed heavily or maybe copied from Sting to come up with that song.

Some of his fans are crowing about Kummi adi, just so sad, because I seriously think that even Karthik Raja has come up with better folk songs in movies like Album and Dum Dum Dum!

Leave the poor chap MADDY alone...he is already suffering...but if he is going to come here and try and provoke here in IR forum, then I would have no choice but to revisit their forums again, which I have refrained from doing for some time...

Hulkster
27th August 2006, 08:14 PM
IR's folk songs had loads of pacey guitar usage or you can call it catchy and some fusion interlaced as well.

In fact Machanai Paartheengala was the first if not one of the first folk song to use guitar as a orchestration for the song. And the innovative use of the shenoy was far different from the folk songs in those days.

Rakkama kaiyai thatthu is latino spiced up with WCM all the way. Whether such a folk song will ever be emulated is a story that is still awaited.

MADDY
27th August 2006, 08:46 PM
guys, u better form a IR group, provide a password to each of ur members for posting.........that way u'll never get neutral posts from other MD's fans.... :D

ezy, when u guys reviewed SOK, i dunt think we reacted so aggressively.......i learnt one lesson though - no point in sharing my thoughts on IR here.... :wave:

RR
28th August 2006, 10:04 AM
MADDY, ezy

Pls stop this. Let's continue with the topic.

Plum
28th August 2006, 01:53 PM
ppl, pls ignore the flames. This is a democracy. Every idiot has a right to display his idiocy. Paarthu sirichuttu marandhudunga.

app_engine
29th August 2006, 12:31 AM
I'm sure we have enough experts in the forum to dissect the instrumental intricacies and showcase them...and I hope they'll keep posting on the orchestration novelties by Raja on folk-based songs (fortunately, I'm not one)...

Let me dwell upon certain folk pieces, that appear in Raja songs, sometimes as interludes even without BGM...and dwell on the beauty and the creative minds that put them there...

One such is in `Anandham Anandham nee thandhadhu' song from poottAdha poottukkaL of Mahendran. (BTW, Mahendran's `sAsanam', I think his first film without IR - i.e. as a director, is considered his career best by Kumudam review. Balabharathy has supposedly done a good job in BGM).

The second interlude of this song has this sweet nAttuppuRappAttu (is the theme of the movie about a childless couple or something like that? Has anyone seen this movie which got reviewed by Kumudam those days as slow, very slow, poottAdha poottukkaL?)...

Anyways, this part is not there in the coolgoose mp3...

"yEh thavamA thavamiRundhu,
thanga mahan onnappeththEn...
arasa maram suththi vandhu,
arasALa onnappeththEn...
paththiyamA nAnirundhu,
pArALa onnappeththEn...
AlAna paingiLiyE,
kaN vaLarAi, kaN vaLarAi..."

This will be followed by some lovely sounds (jaladharangam?) and then by a female chorus / country drums / IR's signature background rhythm / guitar combo which will raise and die down to a stop...for Janaki to start the second stanza...

Things like these can take you to a calm, lovely TN country setting below an Ala maram...in a matter of few seconds...

kiru
29th August 2006, 07:14 AM
how about mEgam karukkaiyiLe from vaidhEhi kaathirundhaal ? My favorite folk song from IR. Just the bass lines alone is fascinating in this guitar rhythm driver song. The vocal harmonies are also cool.

balaji
29th August 2006, 07:57 AM
App_engine

PP was a very boring with some flashes of good scenes. Heroine charulatha longs for a child. Hero Jayan( This good actor of Malyalam was killed in a Helicopter accident while shooting for Kolilakkam(?)) a casonavo was faulty. Saw the movie when doing middle school alone in Alankar Theatre as some one in my family got one free ticket. Why my family allowed me was a mystery to me still.

Then comes a man who tries to woo women from the village. Heroine almost falls for him (the actor acted in Gramathu Adhiyayam ) before she wakes up at the end.

Anyways great song, great music, very sumar film

Bala

tvsankar
29th August 2006, 01:10 PM
Yethammayya yetham
umaku romba
yethamaiya yetham - sung Chithra and MV

from "ninaivil oru sangeetham ' is a nice themmnangu - i feel.

With Love,
Usha Sankar.

app_engine
29th August 2006, 07:08 PM
Thanks Balaji for the recap on PP. Fine additions Kiru & Ushaji...

For the last couple of days `arachcha sandhanam' is on my car player on repeat mode. This has a folk `thogayaRA'...

`sembavaLa muththukkaLa
sEththu vachcha chiththiramE...
thanga vaLa vaira vaLa
pOttirukkum muththinamE...
vAi malarndhu nee sirichchA
pAththirukkum aththanaiyum...
nee malarndhu pAththirundhA thOththu vidum aththanaiyum'

Ofcourse this piece begins and ends with a `kolavai'...I'm not sure whether this sound has been used in movie songs prior to the Raja era...(Kindly point out if there are instances of his predecessors bringing in this sound... which is typically raised by women during the `sAmi kumbidu' periods in villages...especially during the `moLappAri' festivities) And Raja never overused this sound but added it occasionally when he felt appropriate to bring in the true village flavor...

`arachcha sandhanam', Oh what a song! Interestingly, this does not boast of `urumi' 'thappu' or any such folk drums but regular tabla rhythms (or that's what I could decipher) but the melody itself is so free flowing like a village stream with excellent support by bass guitar...flute rules in this song, especially when it colloborates with the lovely SPB when he sings 'idhu poovO, poondhErO'...

app_engine
29th August 2006, 09:26 PM
Digression:
http://dailythanthi.com/article.asp?NewsID=280800&disdate=8/29/2006

says `thanjAvooru seemaiyilE' of poNNukku thanga manasu had IR's mettu...(when assisting GKV)...

May be possible, considering the folk nature of the song. And this is a standard `oppAri' tune in villages anyways... It's also possible that this got misinterpreted, wrongly attributing `thEn sindhudhE vAnam' to IR...even though that was a original kannada tune by GKV...

End-digression

Sanjeevi
29th August 2006, 11:53 PM
Guys why are you thinking only dappankuthu kinda songs. Have you listened to "Kannae Navamaniyae" song from En bommukutti ammavukku. I have no words to describe the feelings happen whenever i listen.

A great gem of Ilaiayraja which has pure folk tune and stunning music composition with natural instruments.

app_engine
31st August 2006, 02:01 AM
With a `kaLak-puLak' water sound in the background, there are a couple of lines in the first interlude of `kotha mallippoovE' of kallukkuL eeram...(is it Janaki herself or some other voice got roped in? very difficult to identify the first word exactly)...

'nAkAkka ooNi vachchEn...
nAnum dhenam thaNNi vittEn...(kolavai sounds in between)
aththa mahan eNNaththula, aththanaiyum payirAchchu...' followed by a beautiful flute piece and then a nice thandhAnAnE humming by MV...

The same song has MV singing a couple of lines with a slap-slap of thuni washing BGM in the 2nd interlude...

`AththOram chinnakkutti, aththa peththa kannukkutti
kAththAda vandhirukkA thangam vachcha veLLipetti
thAlikkodi pOttu vappAn mAmEn mAmEn
En thangaththukku Eththavan dhAn rAmEn rAmEn'

followed by inimiyAna electrical piano sounds and female chorus...

inimaiyum, maN vAsanaiyum izhaindhOdum indhappAdalil...

tvsankar
31st August 2006, 09:33 AM
Dear app,
Neenga expect panradhu ippo dhan konjam puriyaradhu.

Mudhal Mariyadhai il varum sila padalgal indha madhiri dhanae? Chinna chinna padalgalaga niraiya irukae? Anal lyrics enaku theriyavillai..Adhanal andha padathin padalgalin lyrics ai konjam solla lmudiyuma?

With Love,
Usha sankar.

app_engine
31st August 2006, 10:19 PM
Ushaji, neengaL thavaRAga purindhu koNdeerkaL ena ninaikkiREn:-)

This thread includes ALL information about IR's folk explores...(and not just limited to the few interesting lines inserted by him here and there, that I'm trying to trace out...)

neenga post paNNina ellAmum folk genre enbadhAl indha thread'kku migavum poruththam dhAn...I'm trying to focus on just one aspect right now, while expecting all other DF'ers to throw in their observations...may be I'll also include from time to time my observations on urumi, udukkai, thappu, mELam and others:-)

Ofcourse MM lyrics will be part of the lines being traced out and I'll try to post them soon....starting from `yEh kiLi irukku'...

umaramesh
2nd September 2006, 03:55 PM
THENNA MARATHULA THENDRAL ADIKEETHU .wow.
duet by IR-PS. I somehow got attracted to this song.
I am not sure is this coming under folk or not but Voice of IR is so natural for this song. can anyone write about this song.

ramesh

jagannn2210
5th September 2006, 12:19 PM
Iam pretty late to this thread due to Login problems.

Moderator- Do we have any thread in the forum related IR's Western or WCM songs exclusively.

Please do start a thread on these lines where we can get more inputs .

Iam always quite disappointed when i hear when IR's success is attributed to Folk songs by many people around. I do agree that he started his career with a film based on a flok subject and i remember Panju arunachalam mentioning ( In IR's special programme in DD during 1991 ) that the entire film industry was talking on the same lines of IR during his earlier days and hence he produced PRIYA just to tell the world what ws the capacity of IR in terms of his WCM& Wmusic...

kiru
6th September 2006, 07:36 AM
Jagan,
You can start your own thread, if you do not find old ones appropriate for this. But this subject has been talked about a lot here.

I dont this app is attributing IR's success to folk alone. Just discussing this mastery with it.

App,
Is there a name to beat patterns used in folk music ? For eg. that is the 'karagam' rhythm used in karagattakkaran and also in a recent tamil as well as malayalam movie called ?
I feel more than the tune it is the beat pattern which gives a ethnic/folksy feel to a song. ARR's songs are always identified by the 'stylish' patterns he uses (which are mostly from western sources_.

MusicIsLife
6th September 2006, 09:35 AM
There are many gems of IR that goes in hand in hand with the folk tune set up.. but the most impressive in my opinion goes to his handling of SINDHU BHAIRAVI's "Thanni thotti Thedi vandha kannu kutti naan" and the amazing "padariyaen padipadi ariyaen" where he gets the folk tune to end with a amazing carnatic finish.

RR
6th September 2006, 09:44 AM
Jagan,

I've revived a topic from the archives, for you:

http://tfmpage.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=7892

app_engine
6th September 2006, 10:11 PM
kiru,
There must be specific beat patterns, though I'm not quite knowledgable enough. However, the instruments themselves define the genre on a number of occasions...esp the ones like thappu & urumi...

I still remember the practice sessions that they used to have in our school for the school anniversary ...especially those of `oyil kummi' and `thEvarAttam'...they used to bring urumi player to play for the `thEvarAttam'...what a reverberating effect it used to create in the playground while the boys try to train their steps...

One pattern used to go like this:
vroom-vroom-vroom,
vroom-vroom-vroom,
vroom-vroom-vroom,
vrooom (4 times)
(for all these notes, the player handles only the `rubbing' stick, i.e. on one side of the urumi)

Then he shifts to
tak-vroom-tak-vroom-tak-vroom-tak-vroom-takata-takata-vroom...

(Here the player alternates between both sides, beating on one side while rubbing the other simultaneously -in an artistic way and the boys change their steps and hand actions here, which makes the whole group dance so enjoyable to watch)....There were a number of patterns, pattern changes, tempo increases / drops, everything with just one instrument...

However, for some reasons, the school staff chose not to have the 'live' player for the function but to play out the taped sound:-(( (and it sounded horrible on the speakers)...

So, that was a childhood lesson on sound quality:-))

Every time I hear similar artistry in Raja folk songs (like `mAnguyilE' opening, `mAnuththOlu koNdu' etc.), it transfers me back to the village instantly...they are so authentic! (I believe for other musicians, urumi was generally some kind of curiosity only - e.g. in the case of `kEttukkOdi urumi mELam' where westernised singing had excellent urumi background...curiously interesting, but far from reality)

app_engine
6th September 2006, 10:39 PM
It's difficult for me to express in text, but there is something beyond intelligence in folk music, at least for me. Yes there is mastery in specific departments, but more than that the total package has to have the right 'feel' to be authentic...while gifted musicians will be able to pick things like beat patterns, instruments etc., it's difficult to reproduce the 'feel' (may be strongly influenced by the melody and lyric in that order, than anything else IMHO)...It's the combo of all, the correct chemistry...that gives Raja the edge...

vijayr
7th September 2006, 10:34 AM
Have you guys talked about "thaNNI karuththurichchu" or "maamen oru naaL malligappoo konduvandhaan" yet? Two songs that pretty much have everything that a folk/themmangu composition can aspire for

Nakeeran
7th September 2006, 06:51 PM
App Engine Sir


In SOTD, today I chose MEEN KODI THERIL .

But after seeing this thread, I wonder if this song will fit into this category of another folk version ?!

Caz, that OLA OLA is native no ?

Means, is this song , a mix of folk & western ?

I think Raja innovated this concept . Not sure but

Nakeeran
7th September 2006, 06:54 PM
Recollecting Pudhiya varpugal movie, I think there is a song VAYILA VANDHAPADI PADA THAN NA PORANDHEN
VARADARASAN PATU . NEENGA VANAGA VENUM KETTU ?

100 % ISO folk number !

app_engine
8th September 2006, 12:53 AM
Nakkeran sir,
`meen kodi thEril' may be a non-TN folk or may be TN but specific to a place, like some small village in nilgiris or something like that :-) namma (average TN) ooru pAttu mAdhiri enakku thONala...it's a stylish song with a unique kind of orchestration...I love both Jency & KJY versions...

thumburu
6th October 2006, 07:22 PM
To me "meenkodi theril" sounds like a malluish folk song . I think the karagaatakkaaran song "Maankuyile poonkuile" comes under kaavadi chindhu type

irir123
7th October 2006, 12:25 AM
Zenith of IR's creativity in folk/tribal style is for the kannada movie "Bhoomi geethe" - each song - 5 songs - is a gem! my pick being "Goro Gorokana" and "Nodiravva Nodiravva Sundaravada" !

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/kannada/s/movie_name.2208/