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Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
Topic started by vinay (vinay007vin@yahoo.com) (@ adsl-67-39-3-180.dsl.dytnoh.ameritech.net) on Wed Oct 22 22:07:56 .


Hey,
I strongly believe that tamil language has its own roots and is independent from any other language in the world. But I now have a doubt. Is the word "kamam" in tamil is derived from Sanskrit or not. Because in sanskrit too we have "kama".

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
Old responses (http://forumhub.com/tlit/15538.8379.22.07.56.html)

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:c0bf8cfd2e]The Japanese Islands name, 'Izu' and 'kuril Islands' the word 'Izu' and 'kuril' what do they mean in Japanese? Do they have connection with the Thamizh words 'Izhu' and 'kuril?'[/tscii:c0bf8cfd2e]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:78559db39a]Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!!

Vanakkam. The word "thaLapathi" is derived as follows:

The root is thaL, which means that which is at the base and increased in size or in other ways.

thaL > thaaL - foot, feet, base.
"eNkuNaththaan thaaLai vaNangkaath thalai" (kuraL).
"thaaLunda niiraith thaalayaale than tharuthalaal" (Avvai).
thaaL > thaaLam: beats as synchronised by the movement of the feet; now, generally, any beat of drum or as measured by the movement of hands.
thaL > thaLam : base, something like feet, from which all movement takes place. Organisational base.
thaLam + pathi = thaLapathi. (the leader of a base; a base commander.)

pathi-thal: pathinthu iruththal. ( entrenched or well secured in a place. ) (other meanings are not relevant here at this moment).
pathi = a ruler or official or commander, entrenched or well-secured in a place; one who rules the place; a leader.
From the above, "thaLapathi" meaning is clear.

[/tscii:78559db39a]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:9dd107330c]CONTD:

"naayakan" naayar (plural).
Meaning as above.

Also, the word naagan corrupts to "naayan", which is a different derivation from the above naayan, thus giving the word "naayan" two meanings.

Naayan = padaiththalaivan; this, together with naagan> naayan, became a caste later. We need not go beyond word derivation here.

[/tscii:9dd107330c]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:09ac053f83]Thiru Neduncheziyan,

There is some bug in this thread and some of the things I wrote went missing.

naya + aka(m) + an = naayakan.
naya (verb) > nayaththal = virumbuthal, pinchelluthal.

Look at the phrase: piRanmanai nayaththal.[/tscii:09ac053f83]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:ddd46f89c6]CONTD

naayakan - one who is liked; one who is followed; a leader; a general.

naya + an = naayan, (singular). naayar (plural)
meaning as above.

Since naagan also derived to "naayan", the word naayan has two births and two meanings. It eventually evolved into a caste. We need not go beyond derivation of words. [/tscii:ddd46f89c6]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:4ab7881e6f]contd

The word sengunthan also denotes a position in the military, like the word "lance corporal".
Senguntham = a lance or stave, that is carried by the person who marches ahead of his force of men or platoon.

muthal> muthali: one who marches ahead of his force. This word is found in stone inscriptions as "padaimuthali", as per researchers. It shortened to "muthali" . Meaning is clear from the word: it means the first person. (not a general, but a right marker or left marker in marching.)

We are here only concerned with word derivation. We set aside the social aspects etc such as what connotations the word attained as it progressed through time.[/tscii:4ab7881e6f]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:30ed0f5565]contd:

akam + padi + ar = akaththup padinthu iruppavar. Internal (palace) workers or guards.

maRavan = a soldier.

Military workers have evolved into castes in many instances and therefore, these ranks cannot be neatly set against current Western military ranks most of the time.[/tscii:30ed0f5565]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:779a3cde88]CONTD:

As between Japanese and Tamil, researches are going on. I shall rever to them in due course and let you know, thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!![/tscii:779a3cde88]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:5ba5d26878]correction: rever read as refer. Thanks and sorry for errors.[/tscii:5ba5d26878]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:bb4800a139]//"eNkuNaththaan thaaLai vaNangkaath thalai" (kuraL).//
The common definition given to this kural, is that right? There are people who say that 30 kurals in Thirukkural were inserted into the Thirukkural at a later time and wasn't in the original Kurals that Thiruvalluvar wrote.

//As between Japanese and Tamil, researches are going on. I shall rever to them in due course and let you know, thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!!//
nanRi

THIRU A P MASILMANI avargaLae!
paNnivu __/__


//The word sengunthan also denotes a position in the military, like the word "lance corporal".//
Does the word 'Sengunthan' have any connection with the Cheran 'Chenkuttuvan?' What does Chenkuttuvan means?[/tscii:bb4800a139]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:34e094b82b]Hello Thiru Masilamani,

I think the work Vidhavai (widow in Tamil), is derived from the sankrit work Vidhva as it is very close to the english word Widow. Let me know if I'am right.
Also let me know what is the pure Tamil word for Widow..

Thanks[/tscii:34e094b82b]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:89a9cf829f]I mean, Sanskrit word is original and Tamil word is derived from it as the Sanskrit word is very close to English word...[/tscii:89a9cf829f]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:2c1a0d23e6]Thiru Chandrashekar,

Vithavai may be Indo-European in origin, and may have been taken from Skrt. Pure Tamil word is "KaimpeN".

Regards. [/tscii:2c1a0d23e6]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:46a42701fd]//wasn't in the original Kurals that Thiruvalluvar wrote.//

Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale! No way to confirm. Even if someone else wrote and inserted it, it must have occurred long before; the word "thaaL" was then already in use.

//connection with the Cheran 'Chenkuttuvan//
No connection with the Cheran. Kuttuvan was from Kuttanaadu. "Kuttuthal" here is said to mean "Ethiriyaik kuttuthal". Kuttuthal: kuttaiyakkuthal (making the other smaller in battle or thalaiyil kuttuthal: knocking with one's knuckles on the head of another

Senguntham: kuntham = stave or stick. Senguntham is a stick which is held upright when marching.
(Senguththaaka pidikkum kOl).

() + + = ( "" "" Ģ)
nanRi.[/tscii:46a42701fd]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:51ed9c7759]Thiru Neduncheziyan.

You did not ask if Kuttuvan became "Kutty" - now a caste title in Kerala!! Some researchers think so.[/tscii:51ed9c7759]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:4187bbd491]nanRi Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!!

What is an equivalent word for the word 'Luck?' People use 'athistam' but thats either sanskiritized Thamizh word or a sanskirit word.

I once heard from someone that Thamizhars had 16 or more different age sections. For instance in English say you'd have Child age, Teenage then adult etc ( I don't know if there are anything in between those in English). Anyhow, do you know those stages in Thamizh? Would you please list them?

nanRi, vaNnakkam[/tscii:4187bbd491]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:0635cbb417]//"Kutty"//

Isn't kutty also mean 'peN'(female) in Malayalam? Like eE peN[/tscii:0635cbb417]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:d44fed3323]your site details tell me[/tscii:d44fed3323]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:b2257f5f24]Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!

PeN paruvangaL 7:-

pEthai 5 to 7
pethumpai 8 - 11
mankai 12 - 13
madanthai 14 - 19
arivai 20 - 25
therivai 26 - 31
pEriLampeN 32 - 40

You can get a few more by including mUthAtti, kizavi and so on, but I do not think there are any defined ages for them. If amy author gives such a list of more than 7, we shall exchange it for knowledge.[/tscii:b2257f5f24]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:c8bc542916]CONTD..

A girl of sweet age is usually referred to in MalayaLam as "PeNKidA".

PathinEziletiya peNkidAAvum . pAna pAtiratil muntirich chaaRum - a line from a song by Kavi VayalAr.

Kutti can mean child, e.g. peNkutti pRasavichchu.[/tscii:c8bc542916]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:82201a5147]nanRi Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

The musical instrument 'nAthasvaram' how is it called in pure Thamizh? Is the word 'vayathu' sanskirit? What about the word 'anjali?'

Thiru Nakeran (nakkEran) from Muzhakkam Thamizh seithth-thAL (from Canada) said vayathu isn't Thamizh and 'akavai' is good Thamizh and that 'aka vaNakkam' is good Thamizh and 'anjali' is sanskirit.

oh and btw those 7 ages for women, they make sense.

Is there a different one for 'aANkaL?' or they are kind of similar?[/tscii:82201a5147]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:3abce382ee]//7 ages//

7 stages[/tscii:3abce382ee]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:199aefc0ad]Buy tamil books online @

www.udumalai.com[/tscii:199aefc0ad]

Oldposts
12th December 2004, 08:34 AM
[tscii:3e6165d13a]I have found out that the name 'peruvankiyam' or something was how 'nAthaswaram' called..let me double check that.

and how do you say 'Apple' in SenThamizh?
What is the pure Thamizh for 'koiyAp pazham?'[/tscii:3e6165d13a]
<a name="last"></a>

Nedunchezhiyan
13th December 2004, 04:56 AM
Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

//[Middle English, from Old English mann. See man-1 in Indo-European Roots.] //
www.dictionary.com

That is some information of the root word of the English word 'man' that I found on the website www.dictionary.com

You have told me that Devanayap Pavanar had proved the Thamizh word 'maN' in his etymological works to have come from the Thamizh word 'man'

Although the maN in Thamizh means soil or Land and where as the English word 'man' means human being. Is there a connection? Did it go to English from Thamizh? or was it just a coincident in sound?

nanRi, paNivu __/\__

A P MASILAMANI
13th December 2004, 12:29 PM
Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!

On Nathaswaram etc., I will get back to you shortly. :!:

A P MASILAMANI
13th December 2004, 06:40 PM
I thought of writing a detail account of the derivation of the word Naathaswaram, however, I have time only to make a brief submission on it now, Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!!

Naatham comes from the word T: "naa" (tongue), The naatham (pleasant sound - "ps") that was known to Tamils or humans generally and for which they coined a name was the naatham from their own tongues. The ps from instruments came later as they became able to use them. Instrumental ps were an accompaniment to the naatham from "naa".

Once there were instruments and man was able to bring out ps from them, the term naatham also embraced such instrumental ps.

Suram comes from the word "suraththal" - that which issues forth from his tongue or instruments and flows... Sura + am = suram!!

Later suram > Skrt: swaram.

naatham + suram = naathasuram.

Naathasuram is Tamil music and from TN or South India.

A P MASILAMANI
13th December 2004, 09:43 PM
[tscii:f8b9dc92a9]
Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!

man [ ] is the root for both (i) maanthan, manithan and manpathai, mannuyir , mannan on one hand and (ii) maN [ ] on the other hand.

man [ ] has more than one meaning.

(A) mannuthal [ ۾ ] - be permanent, be present at all times.

(B) mannuthal [ ۾ ] - sinthiththal (thinking).

Words referring to humans came from mannuthal, meaning thinking person.

MaN (soil) came from the same word mannuthal in its other meaning of something permaneet.

Indo-European "man" is close to the Tamil words, just as "manushya" (Skrt).

The explanation is that Indo European languages borrowed this word from Tamil at very early stage, whilst in contact with Sumerian civilisation. After all, Tamil is the mother of many world languages.Research has shown Tamil (archaic) was being used in Sumerian area.







[/tscii:f8b9dc92a9]

A P MASILAMANI
13th December 2004, 10:19 PM
There is no cause for concern when the same word or connected word is found in Indo-European. People of IE were in contact with Archaic Tamil in West Asia before IEs dispersed eastwards and westwards.

Take the word vithavai, which we said may be Indo-European in origin.

In Greek, it was in the form "eitheos" and it did not denote a lady who has lost her husband, but a man who had given up ( or postponed) his marriage. Sanskrit borrowed from Greek and used the word to refer to a widow (female). All other IE languages followed Skrt. Latin widuus meant a widow.

The root word for Greek was Tamil vidu = give up (give up or postpone marriage in this instance.). Do you see the connection now?

Hence, in archaic or proto Tamil, there should have been a word viduvai (vidu + vai (suffix) ) , meaning a person who gave up marriage and this must have been borrowed by Greek. We lost the complete word viduvai but we still have the root word : vidu, quite fortunately.

Greek borrowed vidu but had its own suffix (os) added to it. (Compare: Christ > Christos).

LATIN also used its own suffix ( vidu-us) us suffix just like Julius.

But Skrt retained the Tamil suffix vai: Skrt form is "vithava" vai> va.

.Quite clear that we lost the word viduvai but still have the root of all these words shown above.

How fortunate!! We still have the raw material but lost the finished product and have borrowed a replica or:

viduvai (T) corrupted to vithava in Tamil itself i and the original thereafter was lost. Either way it did not make a difference.

Nedunchezhiyan
14th December 2004, 04:40 AM
Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

nanRi! nanRi! nanRi!!!

It is intersting to know the root of the word Nathasuram which came from Natham + suram as you have said above. To think that Thamizhars have been mostly using the sanskirit form of the Thamizh word Nathasuram is really sad. Anyway does the word Peruvankiyam denotes to Nathasuram?

The facts about the word 'widow' you said is very intersting! I guess that word stand as one of the proof to show that Thamizh is mother of MANY Languages!

Viduvai --> vidu+(us) in Latin and vidu+(os)

I don't know how people forgot the word 'viduvai' and began to use 'vithavai' in Thamizh, could have been the Sanskirit influence. Don't you think using the word 'viduvai' is more appropriate Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae? After all the word is easily understandable 'vidu+vai' for any one.

nanRi, paNivu!

Nedunchezhiyan
14th December 2004, 04:55 AM
//for anyone//
by anyone


Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

remember the time I asked you about the word 'wheel' and its equivalent word in Thamizh where you said 'uruLai' is better to be used for 'wheel'

Then I came across the Thirukkural (athikaaram 94, kural 933)

UruLAiyam oOvAthu kUrin poruLAyam
pOip puramAe padum - Thiruvalluvar

you know what that kural means and the word 'uruLAyam' denotes to 'uruLum karuvi.' Anyway can we use the word 'uruLAyam' for the word 'Wheel?'

What about tyre? How do we call the wheel tyre in Thamizh?

What are the root words for 'kannadam', 'Thelunku' and 'Malayalam?'

did kannadam originated from the same root word as 'karnatakam' meaning ancient land or something? or did it come from the roots 'kannadam' and 'adaiththal?'

What about Thelunku? Did Malayalam come from the fact it became a dialect of the mountain range Thamizh people? Did it come from manipraLavam or something?

nanRi, paNivu Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

A P MASILAMANI
14th December 2004, 08:25 AM
Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!!

You may use viduvai in inverted commas with vithavai in brackets beside it to make the meaning clear. I shall revert.

A P MASILAMANI
14th December 2004, 10:11 AM
[tscii:0eb7cd1066]//Anyway can we use the word 'uruLAyam' for the word 'Wheel?' //
"uruLaayam" [ ǡ ] here means a rotating wheel used in gambling and it appears to be a game like "roulette". The bettor or punter announces a number and if the rotating wheel comes to stop at that number, he wins. A small ball may be dropped to select the number instead of verbally proposing it and if the revolving wheel comes to stop at that number where the ball has sat, he may be the winner. There may be other ways of playing. You have to consult a Chinese gambling expert. They are the real world experts in gambling. In SE Asia some Bangladeshis are good at these games and have found employment (illegal) as assistants of the Chinese operators. Tamils seem to be no good at gambling.

The word "kuuRin" [ Ȣ] shows that during the time of Thiruvalluvar, the number used to be selected by word of mouth rather than a small ball as in roulette.

In a game of "tikam-tikam" the wheel is fixed and does not rotate; it has numbers written on it and the punter places his chips on the number he selects. If a rotating arm with a suspended arrow- like point finally rests and points at that number, the punter wins. The stakes will be as pre-agreed between the punter and the operator of the game. Finance usually is managed by a third person and assistant of the operator.

The hands and mind must be fast if you are to be successful. KuRaL No. 325 "kaiyum tharukki" refers to this dexterity.

Looks like Valluvar knew about gaming methods. The component aayam in uruLaayam by itself means game or gambling. The underlying etymological meaning refers to the processing that goes on in gambling: selecting numbers, placing of bets, acceptance of bets, beginning of the game and methods of play and assessments at various levels, the display of skill in handling the gaming instruments, the element of chance and its degree, final decision as to win/lose and payment. Gambling and the various games are a study by themselves and if you did PhD in other discipline, you may still be nobody in the field of gambling. One can be sold!! There are few books available and not all games may be covered. The Tamil word aayam came from aaithal and the ancient Tamils must be praised for selecting the root word aai ( meaning look very deeply into, research , process something and its intricacies ) to denote gambling. Those ignorant of gaming and its complexities may not understand why and how aayam was formed. One person I admired for his knowledge in this area is Justice Choor Singh (retired judge of the Supreme Court of Singapore ) who wrote GAMING IN MALAYA. See if you can get this book if you just want to know how complex things in gambling can be. Thus the word aayam is beautifully formulated.

Prostitution, Intoxicating liquor consumption and Gaming are evils and they have been juxta-positioned as chapters in KuraL. These evils usually operate in close proximity to one another (in one or adjacent areas ) and hence the choice and placement of chapters in KuRaL is beautiful.

Thank you for bringing up uruLaayam.

As the wheel mentioned in KuRaL refers to the gambling wheel, it is not applicable to a vehicular wheel.

Thus uruLaayam is different from uruLai. NanRi.

[/tscii:0eb7cd1066]

A P MASILAMANI
14th December 2004, 06:39 PM
Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!

I think we have discussed some time back with regard to the derivations of the words, Telugu, Kannadam, Thulu, and MalayaLam. Have you downloaded our discussion< Kindly check.

Anyway,
Malai + aaLam = malayaaLam ( malainaattu mozhi).
Kannadam said to be from Karunadam but disputed by other researchers.
Telugu - several etymologies but researchers rejected one another.
TuLu similarly no concensus.

But you may be interested in knowing one variety of the many etymologies and this variety centred on sweet stuff.

Telugu from thenugu > theen (honey).
Kannadam from kannal, meaning sugarcane (juice).
TuLu from thuLi, i.e., theenthuLi (honey drop).
Thamiz from tami+iz , tami = tani (no equal). iz = inimai.
Malai = malaiththeen (mountain honey). aaLam suffix.

Some are saying how come everything is sweet with these five languages!!

Bharathithaasan says:

pandaith thamizum thamizil malarnththa
pannikar thelungu thuLu malayaaLam,
kandai nikar kannadam enum mozikaL
kamazak kalaikaL siRantha naadu,

Kandai nikar - kaRkaNdai nikarththa (equal to rock sugar). So he believed in this "sweet" etymologies. kandu = kaRkkandu made from sugarcane so kannal > kannadam.

paMMikar telungu - telugu that is equal to a paNN - a musical stanza,

Barathi said "sundarath thelungu".

You find it interesting?

A P MASILAMANI
14th December 2004, 06:48 PM
[tscii:2921c5ce09] Ƣ
񽢸 ¡
ɼ Ƣ
ĸ .[/tscii:2921c5ce09]

Nedunchezhiyan
16th December 2004, 02:42 AM
[tscii:20c5c89128]//Barathi said "sundarath thelungu".

You find it interesting?//

I have heard the objection against Bharathi and Bharthithaasan as more patriotic Thamizhar than Bharathiyaar. Although Bharthiyaar worked against gender discriminations, caste discriminations, however his view as a Thamizh pulavar was different than how other Pulavars viewed. Not only that as you are aware of the fact that no Thamizh patriotic pulavar says, "Singhalath Theevukku paalam amaippom" while Thamizhars lives in that Island and lives vastly around 64% of the coast of that Island. The name Eezham in Thamizh literature went to Ilangai and then Bharthiyar made it even worse by calling it "Singhalath Theevu."

There is a reason to believe the influence of 'Thelunku music' during foreigners rule, after 'nayakkar kAlam' may have made him sang "Suntharath Thelunkil pAtisaippom..." etc. Then again he sang the song, "yAmarintha mozhikalil Thamizh mozhi pOl engkum kANOm..." there are belifs that he was a drug 'addict' and so people say that if he was one then no one knows when he sang which one.

If Bharathi said 'Suntharath Thelunku' and his meaning was related to the song Bhaarathithaasan sang, the one you have listed above...
// Ƣ
񽢸 ¡
ɼ Ƣ
ĸ .//
Then thats different.

nanRi, Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae! paNivu.[/tscii:20c5c89128]

A P MASILAMANI
16th December 2004, 06:28 PM
//The name Eezham in Thamizh literature went to Ilangai and then Bharthiyar made it even worse by calling it "Singhalath Theevu."//

Hmm, thiru Neduncheziyan avargale, true. Just for literary discussion: (which I think is no harm). But do you think Barathi can be excused for using the word because at the time, (1) India and Lanka have not become indepedent yet and the British were still ruling; (2) Eezam was then a literary word used in Ilakkiyam and SingaLam was commonly understood; (3) Tamils and Singalese were then living in harmany under British peace; (4) He had no idea that there would be a future problem, After all, he did his best for the Language which became richer. Some of these reasons overlap and are not mutually exclusive.

Can we accomodate him on that ground? Of course no kavingar would refer to Lanka as Singalath Theevu nowadays.

A P MASILAMANI
16th December 2004, 07:01 PM
[tscii:32271dcf35]Barathithaasan also used the word "singaLam".

ɡ
á æ !

ȡ !


I think it was the popular usage at the time to refer to Lanka as singaLath thiivu, singaLam and so on. Also SingaLam was /is a mixed language and had a substantial base of Tamil words and it is admitted by the Sinhalese writers and researchers themselves for example Lionel Sarath. So, the prevailing thought at the time was it was one of the languages of the heritage of the South.. There were also many mixed marriages. Then, the scenario changed..!

The above stanza by Barathithaasan was from memory. I hope no mistakes. I did not check up the other sweet poet Kavimani Thesika Vinaayagam Pillai.

You think there is sufficient evidence to make out a case to say that that was the usage of the time. All these poets are "maRumalarchi kavinyarkaL". and they wanted to go by the popular and simple language that the common man can at once understand without having to look at the dictionary.

þ! â Ҹ š򾡧 Ũ
¨.



[/tscii:32271dcf35]

geno
17th December 2004, 12:33 AM
Thiru Nedunchezhiyan avargaLukkum , thiru A P MASILAMANI avargaLukkum - ennudaiya anbArntha vaNakkangaL! :D

ungaL iruvarin karuththukkaLaip padippathil enammu mikuntha Arvamum, magizhchiyum uNdu! :D :D

thodarnthu ungaLin arumaiyANa karuththuraikaLai thanthu en pOnRavarkaLai magizhviyungaL! :D

A P Masilamani avargaLE!

I have sent you a private message. Please check your mail box here. ( Click the link near your profile in the Top right corner of the page - "Private messages" ).

I'm waiting for your reply. :D

A P MASILAMANI
17th December 2004, 09:42 AM
Thamizhanbar Geno avarkale! NanRi!

I saw the matter. Sucessfully neutralised and "virus" contained. Will communicate shortly through p-em.

UngaL Thamizanban Masilamani.

A P MASILAMANI
17th December 2004, 08:01 PM
Continution; THE WORD 'AAYAM"

Whilst dealing with gaming word : Aayam > uruLaayam, we saw that it derived from "aaithal".

Aayam also had another meaning and this can be known from the Sangam Poet's name: "Mathurai Oolaikkadai kaNNam pukunthaar aayaththanaar" .

Dr Vadivelan in his "Ilakkiya Varalaatruch ChinthanaikaL" (2003) p 45 proposes that Aayaththanaar could mean detective, as they too do "aaithal"= investigation.

This meaning becomes more clear when you look at the phrase "KaNNam pukuntha" = kannakkool vaiththup pukuntha".

KaNNam pukunthaar = thirudar. kannakool vaiththup pukunthavar.

KaN (eye) > kaN+am = KaNNam [opening created by the thief like the eye (much bigger than the eye clearly ) ] on the wall kaNNam > KaNNam+ kool = kannakkool. Pl note N >n change in the word.

Pl see PuRanaanuuRu stanza 350.

Thiru Neduncheziyan avarkale! This additional research is for your pleasure as well as for other thamizanbarkaL.

Sudhaama
18th December 2004, 03:54 AM
Thiru. Nedunchezhiyan,

//...after 'nayakkar kAlam' may have made him sang "Suntharath Thelunkil pAtisaippom..." etc. Then again he sang the song, "yAmarintha mozhikalil Thamizh mozhi pOl engkum kANOm...there are belifs that he was a drug 'addict' and so people say that if he was one then no one knows when he sang which one.//

These words... sundharath thelunginil paattisaithu ... thONihaL Otti viLaiyaadi varuvOm..."

Under which context it was so composed by BArathi, has to be perceived.During the dictatorial days of British- rule, BArathi was rarely a bold, broad-minded and multi- faceted Poet dealing on various Subjects viewing as Indian- Patriot, Tamilian, Devotee, Far- sighted Human and Social-Critic as well.

This Poem he has presented under "DhEsiya gIthangaL". Those inexplicable dark days of about 70 years back, is still in my vivid memory... that this Book was strictly banned by the British rulers and if found in anybody's possession, he was imprisoned and tortured as anti- Government criminal as also severely punished as "dhrOhi" (Traitor)... and that how everyone in our family were constantly under the grip of Fear that at any moment we may be arrested by Police and put behind bars since my father had carefully kept the Book concealed, (buried within the Paddy- bag full of Paddy hidden in the Loft)....!!!

This poem was composed exclusively to arouse the Indian Nationalist spirit amongst all the Indians of One Nation India comprising of various Linguistic and Cultural Regions in a Mosaic-pattern. The Voice behind is... "Even though we from different Regions of India, are far apart in some respects.. we live as brothers of ONE FAMILY... AS INDIAN by UNITY IN DIVERSITY... having ONE MOTHER for all of us, the "bAratha- mAthA" and each one of us are great in one or the other aspect, such that we all with the BROTHERLY-SPIRIT affectionately exchange amongst ourselves the best available stuff of the respective regions."

Such a high-spirited Propaganda amongst all the Indian- Nationals, was very much imperative and direly unavoidable at that crucial juncture so as to counter the wicked "Divide and Rule" policy of the British- dictators while the Indians as a whole were enslaved by those Foreigners.

We have to realise his high Intentions and appreciate the Rich SENSE OF ONENESS as "We the Indian National" as he meant by these words towards every Indian of the Motherland India. By analysing this Poem word by word we can feel the heated pulse of the High-hearted Voice behind.

This poem starts with the words..."Sindhu nadhiyin misai..." Why should he take up Sind River for consideration here?... To mean... " Even though Sind River is far away from us the people of both the regions are ONE INDIAN. Thus the poet has taken up all the regions in different directions of India on different angles of worth and richness.

"...Sundharath thelunginil paattisaiththu..." What does he mean? He says ..."Thamizh inidhu" (SWEET)... and thelugu is "sundhara" (Beautiful). Thus he has not under-rated his mother Tongue Thamizh... but optimistically and open- mindedly he praises the greatness of the other Indian Brothers too with a high humane-spirit... a true TAMILIAN SPIRIT of "yAdhum UrE, yAvarum kELir"

Why he called the "Izha- nAdu"as "SingaLath-thIvu"?

Primarily... to keep up to the poetical rhyme of "mOnai"... aligning with the words ... gangai- nadhipurathu, singa- marAttiyar, singaLath- thIvinukkOr, vangathin- mIdhil... etc.

Secondly... to address the Sinhalese also as BROTHERS being the equally suppressed Indian of one Great India of those days... identifying their location, similar to the foreigners addressing all the people of India as "SINDHIAN", meaning the people of Sind-River!!!

So the high spirit of "ONE UNITED INDIAN BROTHERHOOD" alone has to be understood here and nothing else to demean.

It is not fair on our part to deem our MAHA-KAVI denigrative and parallel with any cheap Drug- addict.

In all his angles of approach...

... OUR TAMILIAN MAHAKAVI BHAARATHI IS INDEED GREAT!!!.

Nedunchezhiyan
18th December 2004, 10:13 AM
Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

paNivu.

//Hmm, thiru Neduncheziyan avargale, true. Just for literary discussion: (which I think is no harm). But do you think Barathi can be excused for using the word because at the time//

Of course he may not have understood or may not have known the difference for some various reason. Anyhow it doesn't explain everything. Then again lot of Eezha Thamizhars unfortunatley uses the term 'Indian' to refer to 'Thamizh Nadu' Thamizhars and yes this is a political bridge. Even those who are 'Thamizh patriotic' sometime are in the 'urge' to label Thamizh Nadu Thamizhars as 'Indians.' Yes Thamizh Nadu is currently under the power of "Indian Union."


Thank you for explaining the word 'aaithal' again. It is very intersting to know that aayaththanaar could mean detective!

Are there any evidence of the roots of 'numbers' in Thamizh? The numbers we Thamizhars use is called as "Indo-Arabic" numbers and you know how that name came. If you could share anything intersting about that then it would be great. Moreover, it would be intersting to know the root of 'ontru' 'irandu' etc. The suffixes of numbers.

nanRi, paNivu
Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

Nedunchezhiyan
18th December 2004, 10:49 AM
Thiru Srinivasan avargaLae!

I appreciate your gratitude to Bharathiyar. I do not wish to make this Literature form into a 'political discussion. Not only that there is no need for such as I am sure that you are aware of many things going in South Asia. The present and the past... The (H)Indian Government involvement in Eezha Thamizhars to the understanding of how the 'Indian Union' was before the Independance etc.

//broad-minded and multi- faceted Poet dealing on various Subjects viewing as Indian- Patriot, Tamilian, Devotee, Far- sighted Human and Social-Critic as well. //

You may have a different view and I may have a different one Srinivasan AvargaLae. Nevertheless my understanding of Thamizh Patriotic pulavar never was "Indian-Patriotic" or something else. Thiruvalluvar created 'ulagap pothumarai.'

Would Bharathiyar wanted his mother tonghue to be third level language in its own soil? How did the English which ruled 'India' became one of the two official language and Thamizh as an ancient language never gained respect.

Lets say Thamizhans of Thamizh Nadu are "Indians." Tell me now why didn't the Indian Government do anything about 150 Thamizh Fisherman deaths by Sri Lankan Army and it condemned right away to the grenade attack in the bollywood program in Coloumbo? Do I see a discrimination? Do you Thiru Srinivas?

//Indians of One Nation India comprising of various Linguistic and Cultural Regions in a Mosaic-pattern.//
India had composed of many different countries before the arrival of Europeans. The British had captured these nations or defeated other Europeans and took control of these lands and combined all of them into one calling it as 'India (if they really did)' to ease the management of the colonies. "Not all communities have equal rights...in India"

//"yAdhum UrE, yAvarum kELir" //
Again this is also a good song relating to the understood facts about life. I think interm of Thamizh community view, Thamizhans have given up enough. Enough being so generous.
"vaLainthu kodukka vAenum, aAnAl antha vaLaivAL muriyak kOodAthu."

//Primarily... to keep up to the poetical rhyme of "mOnai"... aligning with the words ... gangai- nadhipurathu, singa- marAttiyar, singaLath- thIvinukkOr, vangathin- mIdhil... //

Not necessarily, would it have hurt to say "Senthamizhth thIvinukkOr?" He could have added up another line to say about Singhalese if he had wanted to. Not only that a pulavar sing a song with meanings. Not like some guy who went to the Thamizh King and sang, "maNpuLu mApiLLai..." because his wife told him to go and make money, and he got saved by the Head pulavar, (not sure if it was Illango or Kampar).


nanRi, paNivu

Nedunchezhiyan
18th December 2004, 11:03 AM
Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

I have a question regarding the usage of Thamizh words by Thamizhars.

We as humans all of us want to make things easy. When it comes to speaking, we all probably deserve things to be easier. Thamizh is a rich language but I am beginning to doubt that some "translated" words in 'SenThamizh' may not co-exist easily in Thamizhars tonghue for some reasons beyond the fact that these words are new.

For Instance words like

TholaipAesi (Telephone)
TholaikkAtsi (T.V)
PaErunththu (Bus)
oLith thattu (CD)
minnangal (E-mail)
Inaiyath-thaLam (Internet)
minnAeti (Lift; Elevator)

Do you think that some consonants in these letters give hard time for some people to 'use' these handly or that they don't hear these words enough to use them?

I believe that they have organized some kind of Organization to find equivalent new Thamizh vocabularies for any new terminologies etc.. in Thamizh Nadu

The use of 'cel paesi' makes things easier for people than the long word 'cellidath tholaipaesi' or 'kaiyadakkath tholaipaesi' or 'kaith tholaipaesi.' What is your opinion Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae? Do you think we should start inventing new abbrieviations for these words like for 'TholaikkAtsi'...or is there one already?

nanRi, paNivu Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

A P MASILAMANI
18th December 2004, 05:58 PM
Thiru Neduncheziyan avarkale!!

NanRi for your thoughts on the matter.

As to using easy words and abbreviations:

Very interesting researches have been done by other learned men, some of them archeologists. Over a few centuries around the dawn of the Christian era and even a little before the era, mainly in stone and pottery inscriptions, the mei ezuththu (consonants) were deliberately dropped. Then presently when they were found, the first lot of finders thought that they were not possibly Tamil words.
It was perplexing them when one thoughtful archeologist/historian managed to decode it.

KOvEnthan (kO+ vEnthan) > kOvEtha - the chief ruler, king..
aLpathi (aL + pathi) > Apathi. a resident governor or ruler, usually under a higher ruler.

Those days they had no sophisticated things like pens as today. When you put a dot (for consonant) on the palm leaf (Olai) it could be torn. The pottery could break during the inscribing. Stone could chip off.

Sometimes, they wrote without the dot; at other times they eliminated the meiyezuththu completely.

So, kOvEnthan when written in Tamil letters, read: kOvEnathan as there was no dot over the na.

Or it could be : kOvetha (consonants eliminated).

Another consideration was space. They did not have tons of paper or gigabyte computers.

Sometimes it was discovered that entire words were omitted.

Using the method, we can decode at least some words today.

ka - (kathiravan malarvikkum) , mala - ( malar.)

In the first instance. for two words, you have one letter only, ka.

In the second instance, only the consonant "r" was dropped.


Now read "kamala" and add suffix "am" = kamalam.

Now read: vizu = siRantha, abbreviate to vi -
malar , drop r, become mala, add am suffix vimalam.

If you do not add suffix, they remain kamala and vimala > kamalA and vimalA as names. ]

As more of these are discovered and explained, the evidence would get stronger.

The epigraphists who decoded some of such words like kOvetha belong to the current millenium. So, we should not go back to professors who were guessing the words to be non-Tamil who lived 70 or 200 years ago when the inscriptions were hidden under the soil and they could have never even dreamt of them.

chEran - just used cha. (not even chE). [ stone inscr. ]

muththirai = 3 seas. thirai = alai. kadal.
muththirayam = refers to a political control covering the 3 seas, an expanse of water where 3 seas meet.
drop the ya becomes muththiram.

sa+ muththiram sEra nAttukku appAl uLLa kadal pakuthi, (Ocean). [ final construction and meaning]

now, samuththiram = ocean.


On the new words you pointed out, if everyone or majority agreed and followed, they could be abbreviated and used. New words in any language will always be difficult.

Some new Malay and Indon terms are difficult to pronounce also.

Persekutuan Federation. (easy)
Pentadbiran Bantuan dan Pemulihan Banga Bangsa Bersatu - UNESCO. (easy?) [ depends on how often you use the language.]

stabit presumptio donec probetur in contrarium (Latin) . A legal presumption stands until the contrary is proved. Easy to pronounce?

My Chinsese assistant who is typing this for me (because my Tamil asst is sick ) supplies you this:
chin chaa poh kwong po thien taai! = singapore vaanoli.
She says Chinese words are easy and good to pronounce.

NiithO nEnu rAkalanu? (Telugu) = I will come with you.

Hopefully we get over such difficulties as we become more familiar with these terms. Pronouncing difficulties are an international phenomenon.

On numbers Dr Mu Varatharaasanar says that the Indo Euro numbers grew out of Tamil numerals. We will discuss this one day as soon as possible.

We will meet again. [sl

Nedunchezhiyan
19th December 2004, 12:02 AM
miKka makizhvu Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!!

Samuththiram from 'cha'> 'sa' from Cheran and muththirai (mUkkadal) forming the Word! I was told that samuththiram wasn't Thamizh and 'perungkadal' means Ocean. I think the usage of the word 'thirai' is important in the formation of the word 'samuththiram' because it makes you picture what happen when 3 seas meet and the 'nurai' formed in the water body. Don't you think we should call the Indian Ocean as 'Samuththiram' after all the word it self derived from the word 'Cheran' and the word 'muththiram'? We could use 'perungkadal' for other oceans with their prefixes and perhaps make a new name accord with how many seas mix at a specific place. What do you think?

Does the word 'muththirai' which mean 'three seas' does it have any connection with the word 'muththirai' (stamp?)...what is the root of the word Muththirai(stamp?)

I think we need to grab hold of the way these words were formed and take advantage of this. It would have been great if Thamizhars had access to some pen or prints and computers. More like the saying,
"kallaik kaNdAl nAyaik kANOm, nAyaik kaNdAl kallaik kANom."

Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae, the 'Kampar' river in Indonesian Island (the one east of west Malysia; the big Island) does it denote to the Chozha Kalaththup Pulavar Kampar? Anyway I have heard that the word Kampar comes from the fact (kampu poEla uLLavar; someone who look like a stick) that his appearance was 'skinny.' Is that right?

nanRi, paNivu Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

Sudhaama
19th December 2004, 02:38 AM
Quote : "Nedunchezhiyan"

// ... 'Kampar' river in Indonesian Island (the one east of west Malysia; the big Island) does it denote to the Chozha Kalaththup Pulavar Kampar?//

Yes, Because Raja Raja Chozhan captured many parts of the adjacent countries, like the so called Burma, Malaysia, Singapore, Andaman, Thailand etc. Eventually large groups of Tamilians were domiciled to these regions by that Chozha Emperor. Those days' Tamilians had strived hard to develop most of these lands into Cultivable Agricultural Lands which were lying either dry or dense forests or fallow fetching no life-worthy return to the people there till then. Thus the Tamilians had enriched these regions by their hard toil, several centuries back, prior to British occupation. While Andaman has become part of India, other parts of such Chozha's new acquisitions got merged with the newly formed Nations, but the ancient Tamilians were gratefully allowed to continue their settlement there. There are authentic Stone- inscriptions in each and every such regions in Tamil script relating to his period of reign of Chozha Emperor in these countries.

The Original name of this country was "MALAAYAA"
(Malai + Aayaa) , meaning "Mother Hill" in Tamil.

The erst-settled ancient Tamilian people of the present Malaysia affectionately named their life- source as "Kambar River", in memory of the Chozha Kavi-chakravarthi.

//... I have heard that the word Kampar comes from the fact (kampu poEla uLLavar; someone who look like a stick) that his appearance was 'skinny.' Is that right?//

No. KAMBAN was named so by his parents because it is one of the names of God Narasimha, the Kula-Deywam of Kamba's ancestry. That is why the inauguration (Arangaetram) of his Tamil Ramayanam, was performed in front of Narasimha- Sannidhi within the Ranganatha Temple at Srirangam. At the same location, the Kambar Memorial Mandapam was erected by the Chozha Emperor, which is still existing.

Sudhaama
19th December 2004, 03:00 AM
In Continuation of the last posting....

The group of Islands presently called as SINGAPORE was originally a Tamilian Settlement. Here too it was partly dry or fallow and partly with dense forests. Ancient Tamilians have developed and enriched it as Agricultural Lands and named the SINGAPURI in Tamil. Subsequently the Malayan King took over from them.

There is also an opinion that the Malayan King who first took over the throne was factually born to a Tamilian-King-father (of that country) and a Chinese Mother (One of the King's several wives)

The present regions of Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia was One unified Tamil- Country, named MALAAYAA ruled over by a Tamil King of Chozha dynasty, under the Chozha Emperor.

Nedunchezhiyan
19th December 2004, 07:00 AM
Thiru Srinivasan avargaLae, nanRi!

//While Andaman has become part of India//

The People who inhabited the Andhaman and Namakkavaaram (nAmakkavAram) Islands before the arrival of Chozhar's big naval fleet were actually Thamizhars! These tribals were of 'Choman' or something and you can notice the coincidence between these words Chozhars and Choman and in Thiru Pazha Nedumaaran book, "Thamizhan Izhantha maN" I believe Thiru Pazha Nedumaaran says that these Choman were related to Chozhars or something (I'm not sure please refer to his book). It is possible for these Islands (Andhaman and Namakkavaaram aka Nicober[nicober came from the word Namakkavaaram; denoting to the fact that these people were living nudely or something]) to have been connected with Thamizh Nadu thousands of years ago.

Is it possible for the South Eastern Asia to have been part of Kumarikkandam aka Lemuria? On the map that I have of Kumarikandam it has two big islands separate from Main land. Not only that the Australian Continent was connected to the 'Kumarikandam.' Hence if the map is right then Malaysia and many other South East Asia which are closer to the South of South Asia to have been part of the submerged 'Kumarikandam'[Lemuria].

The names like 'pattani' [That is Thamizh right? like 'pattanik kadalai'?], Madura in Sumatra(probably was named as Mathurai), Manila (The capital of Phillipines), Ayudha (a city in Thailand) must be of Thamizh origin and the mark left by the Thamizhch Chozha Empire.

nanRi, paNivu!

Nedunchezhiyan
19th December 2004, 07:03 AM
//KAMBAN //
What is the root of the Word 'Kamban?'

nanRi, paNivu

Sudhaama
19th December 2004, 09:51 AM
[quote="Nedunchezhiyan"]

//KAMBAN.... What is the root of the Word 'Kamban?//'

It is purely a Tamil word. "Kambam" means Thoonh (Pillar in English).

One who has come out of a Kambam is "KAMBAN".....

... Similar to the one indulging in "VAMBU" is called "VAMBAN"... and...

.... the One who is indulging in "Kallham"(Theft) is "Kallhan" (Thief)

KAMBA-NAADU was a Sitrarasu under Chozha Kingdom, in the name of Lord Narasimha to whom the King of the Land was much devoted.
That is why Vaishnavites used to denote Kambar as KAMBA- NAATTU- AAZHWAR even now-a-days. Kamban's Birth-lace Thaerazhundhoor is within Kamba- Naadu.

In some other regions too of Tamilnadu, people especially the Farmers, used to erect just a plain and Simple Wooden- Post (Kambu) in their Farm-land, tie a new cloth-piece, adorn with garland and worship it as the God Narasimha, just before commencing the Farmwork anew every year.

A P MASILAMANI
19th December 2004, 05:03 PM
Thiru Nedunchezian avarkale! vanakkam.

Thanks for the interesting discussion. to both of you.

Muththirai = muunRu kadal is different from Muththirai = stamping.

The earlier word pertainning to ocean etc was formed from two words: mu = three; thirai = alai, kadal.

The rubber stamp muththirai however is differently formed.


muththuthal = mella muttuthal..

When the contact is hard, Tamil uses da: ( a ta with emphasis) muttu.
When the contact is soft and more pleasant, Tamil softens to tha : muththu> muththam.

muththu + am = muththam.. kiss.
muththu + iru + ai (suffix) = muththirai, to softly impress on the item that is receiving the stamping, keep it for one moment or so and of course, to withdraw the contact, thus causing the impression or stamp as required. In other words, muththi iruththi eduththal.

This is a classic example of words originating differently and ending up as homographs.

mu + thiRai = muththiRai, three important taxes.

The root word muththuthal (muththu) verb. is again said to be different from

muthu (mature ) = ,muththu which comes from chippi. (muthirnthu varuvathu).

The Tamils / Dravidians lived by the sea in the Indian peninsula and as such words pertaining to sea and natural gifts therefrom were from Tamil.

Muththu > muththu + aaram = muththaaram, muththu maalai, aarthal: kattuthal, porunthuthal, arththal = kattikkoLLuthal. ( basic concept : vaLaithal, chuuzthal.) Something that goes round or tied to the neck, so aaram.

muththaaram > mutiara ( now preserved in Malay ) = muththu.
mutu also means quality in Malay. mutu > bermutu, bermutu tinggi.
mutiara > tiara (Persian > Greek > Latin > English).

[Japanese car named TOYOPET TIARA in the 1960s or so ]. I have not checked up the Jap dictionary.

Vanakkam.

A P MASILAMANI
19th December 2004, 09:30 PM
// 'anjali' //


Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!

anjali is actually a corruption of the Tamil compound word akamcheli.

If your heart goes towards your deity, that is akam chelluthal.

akam + chel + i = akamcheli > anjali.

After anjeli became "one" word and people forgot that it was actually a compound word made of two stems and a suffix, they added seithal to it to make out verb-phrase.
Just like muyaluthal> muyal+ chi (suffix) = muyarchi.

Nowadays, even the educated do not say " avan veendiyaanku muyaluvaan", they rather say: avan muyarchi seivaan.

Present usage: keedka muyarchi sei.
Avvayaar: keeLvi muyal.
You go out and tell a ordinary Tamil man: muyal! muyal! vittukoduddaathe!, he will not think of muyarchi, he would think of the animal "muyal!" This means usage is changing and people are adopting new forms of the word forgetting the root.

Western linguists say it is a welcome development. Why?

Hence, the point is: anjali has long lost its meaning as compound and has now taken the shape and significance of a single word.

There are other such words in my consideration; we shall discuss as we proceed.

One other thing: if it is akam chel i , how did that shorten? Any supportive example.

We shall consider another word: akam+ kai = ankai!

akam+ udayaan = aampadayaan.
akam + kaaram = aangaaram!! (Here there is a slight change in meaning in the derivate. Hope you find it interesting also.)

For aankaaram, another etymology can be given; but the purpose here is to understand the evolution of "anjali".

A P MASILAMANI
19th December 2004, 09:41 PM
Muththirayar.
TO CLEAR CONFUSION WITH ANOTHER SIMILAR SOUNDING WD.

Thiru Neduncheziyan avarkale!

Please note that "muththarayar" should not be confused with "muththirayar".

muth- tharayar : tharayar means owner of land, three lands, the cheera, chooza and paandiya kingdoms.

muth- thirayar: muunRu kadalilum aatchi seivaar. = the naval power of the peninsular india or slightly lesser area,

Thanks and regards.

Nedunchezhiyan
20th December 2004, 02:30 AM
Thiru Srinivasan, Thiru A P MASILMANI thangaL iruvaruKKum enathu nanRikaL!

nanRi, paNivu Thiru Sirnivasan avargaLae for explaining the word 'Kambar!'

Nedunchezhiyan
20th December 2004, 02:30 AM
Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

//anjali is actually a corruption of the Tamil compound word akamcheli.//
Was it a corruption or it became abbrieviated?

//Present usage: keedka muyarchi sei. //
I use 'muyaluthal'(muyala vaendum etc) and 'muyatsi' so I asked someone here about how they would say it

The answer came with muyatsi.


//muth- tharayar : tharayar means owner of land, three lands, the cheera, chooza and paandiya kingdoms.//

the 'ra' in tharayar..is that 'ta?' or the other 'Ra?'
We say 'tharai' (pronounced as thatai with the 'arapu' 'ta'nA) but I have also heard people saying 'tharai' (pronounced as tharai with the other 'ra') ...Is there a connection? Or was it a mispronouncation? Does farmers say 'thataiyaik koththa vaEnum' and 'thaRaiyaik koththa vaEnum?'

nanRi, paNivu Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

Sudhaama
20th December 2004, 10:08 AM
[Quote:"Nedunchezhiyan"]

// I appreciate your gratitude to Bharathiyar.... //

No doubt you have every right to have your own independant opinion contrary to mine about Bharathi. But we have to remember that British were the common Antagonists for the whole of Indian Union of those days including the so called Ceylon. So much more than the Gratitude, it is a matter of our Pride that Bhaarathi in spite of his absolute poverty and trying circumstances, had boldly raised his Voice against the Invaders in those crucial days of terror (unlike thousands of Cowards in high position bowing down as Slaves before a Dictator), as also a Far-sighted Visionary, Selfless crusader, Whole-hearted Patriot, Dedicated poet on Tamil, as also an Invincible Global Human. Tamilians all over the world must be proud of our Man Bhaarathi. If anybody under-rates that Great Human, means that he does not know that intellectual Thyaga-jothi properly.

//I do not wish to make this Literature form into a 'political discussion
Not only that there is no need for such as I am sure that you are aware of many things going in South Asia. The present and the past... The (H)Indian Government involvement in Eezha Thamizhars to the understanding of how the 'Indian Union' was before the Independance etc.//

You say you don't want to indulge in political discussion... whereas subsequently, ... all are your political discussions only..... Even though I have an authentic reply.... I am not interested to discuss here, since out of context..

//.... Not like some guy who went to the Thamizh King and sang, "maNpuLu mApiLLai..." because his wife told him to go and make money, and he got saved by the Head pulavar.... //

Yes. Most of the Pulavars of the ancient days were so, unlike the bold and self-respectful Kambar.

In confession one poor Pulavar sang....

"Pollaan oruvanai naan Nallaay yenraen
Poar muhathai aryaanaip puliyaerhu yenraen
Yellaam arhu vayitruk koozhukkuth thaan.

You may know that there is a Tamil Proverb....

"PIRIKKA MUDIYAADHAVAI ..... PULAMAIYUM VARHUMAIYUM"

Prior to Independance, there was no mention of the word EEZHAM anywhere in India .. but only YAAZHPAANHAM.... in those days. And even in all the Tamil Literatures too we find as ILANGAI only.

Kamba Ramayanam says as ILANGAI- Vaendhan Raavanhan. only....

Tamil-Prabandham says, which MS Subbalakshmi has sung as...

" ILANGAI PUKKU.... AARAAVAMUDHANAI....

The word EEZHAM... suddenly became popular all over Tamilnadu.... When & How?... Tamilians of Tamilnadu came to know just recently... after the British days and expiry of Bharathi... only when Thiru Kuttimanhi was callously tortured and put an end inhumanly.

Anbaarndha Nedunchezhiyan, I am able to realise your hurt heart and wounded feelings... caused despite NO FAULT of you the innocent and good-hearted people.

But in this context... one thing you must remember. During the British days, so to say while Bharathi was alive.... it was called Indian-Union comprising of the regions of the present India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Burma and Srilanka (Ceylon),under one control of British Viceroy at New Delhi in India. Within this Indian Union people were free to move about anywhere without any restriction. Whereas now, a Tamilian from Tamilnadu is not able to feel free to go to his adjacent Jaffna for meeting his Tamilian brother, whereas he is free to go to Andaman, because both these far off lands fall within one country.!!!

So Bharathi did not consider Yaazh-thamizhar different from the India-Thamizhar. We have to think through his vision of the Time.

Bharathi says.... Vilhaiyaadi varuvoam... Paalam amaippoam.... Veedhi samaippoam... Payir seyhuvoam.... etc...

Whom does he mean behind all these -OHMS? Who are that WE?....

He means all the TAMILIANS including You and I...!!!

Non-Tamilians in India and Srilanka.... he means as.... OTHERS!!!

A P MASILAMANI
20th December 2004, 10:17 AM
//Was it a corruption or it became abbrieviated?//
A normal word corruption, which means changes effected by people because of how they pronounced the word.

A P MASILAMANI
20th December 2004, 09:47 PM
[tscii:0a15f591a9]Muth-tharaiyar: here, the tharai is "land". It is spelt with "r".

. ȡ . ++ - - ( ).

( ).

Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale! Does this answer your query?[/tscii:0a15f591a9]

geno
21st December 2004, 01:08 AM
[tscii:cc84fb5acf]¡ ġ !

了Ƣ ͨ Ţ, Ǣ Ȣš Ţ Ȣ ! :)

ġ - â - 򾢧 - "" - úǢ Ŀᢠ, "Ǣ" ȡ ȡ - Ƹ򾢧 - , ġȡš ȡ.

"", "Ǣ" 째, 째 - 𼾡 âŢ.

측ý Ţ ?

Ȣ :)

. : (pm) :)[/tscii:cc84fb5acf]

Nedunchezhiyan
21st December 2004, 02:33 AM
//Prior to Independance, there was no mention of the word EEZHAM anywhere in India .. but only YAAZHPAANHAM.... in those days. And even in all the Tamil Literatures too we find as ILANGAI only.//

Like Thiru A P MASILMANI here explained once, Sri Lanka to have come from the pali corruption of the word Sri Iizham etc. Not only that he also pointed on one of the post that Thamizh Pulavars from Nagatheepam (current Jaffna Peninsula) held position in Thamizh Sangam and thus their names followed the title 'Nagar' etc. One of the Nagatheepap Pulavar of Thamizh Sangam was "Eezhaththu Nagavaendhar," The Word Eezham didn't just appear out of no where. Not only that while I was playing Age of Empire, I came to know a name "Elam," I am not aware of its pronouncation but it may have connection with the Thamizh word 'Eezham' or 'Ellam.' That 'Elam' (note the Capital "E" in the word) lived in the Sumerian Lands, where as I believe historical evidences shows that Thamizhars lived in these lands and many words were borrowed by the people living in this area.

//Whereas now, a Tamilian from Tamilnadu is not able to feel free to go to his adjacent Jaffna for meeting his Tamilian brother, whereas he is free to go to Andaman, because both these far off lands fall within one country.!!!//

I am sure that anyone is welcomed in Thamizheezham, apparently many Thamizhars of Thamizhans fear POTA and THADA and you know the consequences. Are you aware of the fact that when Andhaman Islands and Namakkavaaram Islands came under the control of India, Thamizh Nadu Thamizhans started to migrate there and the so called Indian Central Government decided to put an end to this by changing the Ship route from Chennai to these Islands (which is NEAREST!) to Calcutta to these Islands. Indra Ghandi also planned on to unite Eezham with "Indian Union," Good thing it didn't happen because then Thamizhans wouldn't have understood the need for their own Independant Nation.

nanRi, paNivu

Sudhaama
21st December 2004, 06:48 AM
Anbaarndha Thiru Nedunchezhiyan,

//The Word Eezham didn't just appear out of no where.//

Yes.... I have not contradicted it. This high-sensed Tamil terminology is the ancient one ever from the Historical days., I know.

I don't understand how you have mistaken me. I reproduce herebelow, my earlier statement.

//Prior to Independance, there was no mention of the word EEZHAM anywhere in India .. but only YAAZHPAANHAM.... in those days. And even in all the Tamil Literatures too we find as ILANGAI only.//

I meant the word EEZHAM was Not Popular or Well-known IN INDIA during the Bharathi's days or even later until recently.

But on ONE SINGLE DAY... IT BECAME POPULAR SUDDENLY.

We have to keep in mind that the topic of my discussion with you relates to Bharathi's thoughts. I hope you will not misunderstand me.

In this connection, I invite to go through my detailed posting under the new Thread here.... TAMIL IS MUCH EARLIER THAN SANSKRIT.

Please comment or criticise or improve on it.....as you feel proper.

Nedunchezhiyan
21st December 2004, 09:39 AM
nanRi Thiru Srinivasan AvargaLae!

Thiru Geno avargaLae...I have heard of a name 'kadAram' I am not sure which part..but a country in South East Asia, I suppose?

I think the root for the word pakruLLi came from the roots pala + thuLi meaning lot of drops, since a river is formed by many rain drops that fall on the mountain which eventually falls off the mountain (aruththukkondu vatum aAthalAl athai aruvi (atuvi) entru azhaippAr) as a water fall then flows as a river.

aAru: aadi aadi povathalA aAru? (katuththai maranthittaen :()

nathi: nadanthu povathAl nathi

Thamizhars didn't probably rename another river with the name pakruLLi perhaps it didn't suit for any other rivers or the other rivers had special names or became to be called different from start.

nanRi, paNivu

Nedunchezhiyan
21st December 2004, 09:49 AM
[tscii:5cab5fb0e4]Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

//Muth-tharaiyar: here, the tharai is "land". It is spelt with "r".

. ȡ . ++ - - ( ).

( ).

Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale! Does this answer your query?//

Yes that answer my query. What is the root of the word aAru? How did the name 'kAuvery' form? Did it come from the roots kA + aEri? or it was abbrieviated or did it corrupt from any other word?

nanRi, paNivu Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae[/tscii:5cab5fb0e4]

A P MASILAMANI
21st December 2004, 07:58 PM
Thiru Neduncheziyan avarkale!!

vanakkam.

kaa = kaadu, kaakkappatta nilappakuthikaL.
viri = virintha idam.

kaa + viri = kaaviri = virintha kaattup pakuthikaLil oodum nathi allathu aaRu.

kaaviri > kaaveeri.

A P MASILAMANI
21st December 2004, 09:32 PM
contd:

kaaveeri evolved from kaaviri. Such change owing to constant use of the word by the people is called "word corruption"

As to pakruLi aaRu, you are right to say that it came from pal + thuLi. It follows the rule as in the word: al+thiNai : akriNai.

Our brother Geno was asking about kapaadapuram.

Thiru Geno and Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!!

kapaadam enpathu aaRRaiyum kuRikkum. kavai pOnRu aaRu pirivathu allathu nakarame iru pirivaaka iruppathu pOnRa kaaraNangaLaai ippeyar kaatukiRathu.

kavai < > kavadu <> kapadu, irattaiyaaka uLLa marakkiLai. athupOl pirikinRa veeRu poruLkaL, iru chinthanai muthaliya porulKalil varum chol.

kapadu + am = kapaadam. (= double ).

kavadu > kavaadu> kapaadam. (word elongation).

It could have been a twin city like New Delhi - Old Delhi or situated at a place where a river branches into two. I can decode the word but I have to refer to the Kumari Kandam map. I shall enquire further. But it is a 100% Tamil word.meaning "double"..

I shall revert.

geno
22nd December 2004, 01:07 AM
Nedunchezhiyan avargaLE!

"pahRuLi", "ARu" - Akiya soRkaLukku thAngaL thantha sol viLakkangaL arumai! nanRigaL thOzarE! :) :D

Masilamani avargaLE!

Wow! "kabAdapuram" may be "Twin city"??

Thats wonderful!!

"kavai" enkiRa vErchol sanga ilakkiyaththil payinRuLLathA?!! aRputhamAna sol viLakkam!! :D

kUduthal seythikaLukkAkak kAthiruppEn! :D

nanRikaL ayyA! :D

Sudhaama
22nd December 2004, 05:11 AM
Thiru Nedunchezhiyan

//I have heard of a name 'kadAram' I am not sure which part..but a country in South East Asia, I suppose?//

"KADAARAM" is the present day BURMA, which country was won over and taken possession by Raja Raja Chozhan.

Sudhaama
22nd December 2004, 05:19 AM
Thiru Nedunchezhiyan,

//...since a river is formed by many rain drops that fall on the mountain which eventually falls off the mountain (aruththukkondu vatum aAthalAl athai aruvi (atuvi) entru azhaippAr) as a water fall then flows as a river.

aAru: aadi aadi povathalA aAru? (katuththai maranthittaen Sad)//

Not so.... ARu = Way , Route, Way of a Rivulet..

Nedunchezhiyan
22nd December 2004, 05:44 AM
Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

Thank you for explaining the word 'kauvery' root. Also for your explanation on "kapaadapuram."

Would you please explain the root of the words 'UththamaN' and "uthAraNam" (if they are Thamizh and if they aren't Thamizh words then their 'foreign' words then their roots).

I am having trouble convincing some people here about Thamizh words that we discuss in this forum. They seem to stand strong on the point that 'foreign' etymologists don't accept it and that we can't seem to convince others that these words like "Vithavai; Viduvai" etc as Thamizh root word. They say that Sanskirit has the root or the explanation of such words hence we can't seem to convince foreigners regarding that. Did Thevaneyap Pavanaar explained about these things? Oh and some people say Thevaneyap Pavanaar work is available to all now...anyway please help me convince them. They say its possible but we can't prove it etc...

nanRi, paNivu

Nedunchezhiyan
22nd December 2004, 05:48 AM
Thiru Geno AvargaLae

I came to know the meaning of pahruLi through a Teacher of mine. The definitions for aAru, Atuvi, nathi that I posted above were things that I came to know 2-3 years ago when a fellow Thamizhar paid a visit to Canada who was literated in Thamizh and explained these couple of words in his speech (which wasn't about Thamizh literature or anything deep into Thamizh language).

nanRi, paNivu

Nedunchezhiyan
22nd December 2004, 05:52 AM
Thiru Srinivasan avargaLae!

I forgot the explanation that was given by this Thamizhar regarding the words 'aAru.' However I have managed to keep the explanations of the words 'atuvi' and 'nathi' given by him in my memory. I believe he said that 'aAru' came from the facts....

'aAdi aAdip povAthAl' allathu 'asainthu asainthu povAthal'

I am still not sure if thats what he said. I consulted with someone regarding this...but he also seem to have forgot. Hopefully Thiru A P MASILMANI here or someone will give the definition of the word 'aaru.'

nanRi, paNivu

A P MASILAMANI
22nd December 2004, 07:27 AM
Thiru Thamizanbar Geno avarkale!!

It is an enormous job really to search Sangam literature and I will take note of this important question and keep an eye for the use of the root word. Once found, I shall communicate with you.

The root word kavai has occurred in PerumpaaNaatrup Padai of sangap perumpular aasiriyar UruththirangkaNNanaar.

"Kavaiththaa nalavan ayaRRaLai sithaya".

Remmbered this because it refers to crabs. You see the pincers of the crab look like kavai. I cannot remember the lines number. Do not have this book in the office. I shall get it for you in due course.

Recently Maraimalai Adigal also used it in his "ThiruoRRi Murugar Mummanik kovai.

We shall meet. Hurrying for a meeting. Best regards.

Sudhaama
22nd December 2004, 10:13 AM
[tscii:d83c4cce25]Meaning of Tamil Word :-- "kavai"

= Ģ "Ǣ "
"kavai" = Beat ( a Small piece of Food-substance fixed at the Needle Hook to catch Fish)

"" š = - ̾ ġ ġ .
"kavaikku udhavaadha pandam" = a Substance which is NOT WORTH... NOR FIT for even a Beat.
[/tscii:d83c4cce25]

Nedunchezhiyan
23rd December 2004, 09:06 AM
Thiru Geno avargaLae

Kavai is where the words 'kovvai' (like kovvaip pazham) and kedavai which is the space between two branches of a tree or something (is it kedavai or something else?). Why do we call the pazham as kovvaip pazham? What is the reason?

nanRi, paNivu

Nedunchezhiyan
23rd December 2004, 09:37 AM
Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

URGENT URGENT URGENT!!

What are the roots of the word 'sitpikaL,' 'kalasam,' 'kONam.'

Are these words Thamizh words? If they aren't, where are they from and what are the equivalent word in Thamizh for these words?

What are the Thamizh term for
Kilogram (Kg)
Meter (m)
Ton (1000 Kg)

Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae, I think you remember that you said there aren't equivalent Thamizh military ranks to nowday European military ranks etc. I have discussed this matter with Thiru Paramanathan and he said we have invent these words so they come in use. Not only that but, he also said that we could use words like 'vAempu' etc and from his Idea I think maybe we can use the Sangath Thamizh "ivakai nilap pOokkaL" names and create ranks accord with that. Also Thiru Sithamparanathan said about divising these ranks into 'muthalAm,' 'IrandAm' divisions etc.

nanRi, paNivu

Nedunchezhiyan
23rd December 2004, 09:38 AM
Is silai Thamizh? What about the word 'thuvakku'..I have come to know that word 'thummi' or something mean 'Gun' in Thamizh. I always wanted to know whether if the word 'sakOtharan' and 'sakOthari' Thamizh or non-Thamizh root.

nanRi, paNivu Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

A P MASILAMANI
23rd December 2004, 02:14 PM
//Thiru Paramanathan and he said we have invent these words so they come in use//

Thiru Nedunchezian avarkale!!

vanakkam.
I agree with thiru Paramanathan.

A P MASILAMANI
23rd December 2004, 04:14 PM
[tscii:b1a25671c7]//Is silai//

The root of this word is chil meaning small. When people first made statues, they were smaller than life size and it was gradually that they made bigger ones. That is why the root word is chil, meaning small.

siRpam also means something small. chil+pu+am.= something small. Later there were larger ones.

People have forgotten the root word and its meaning. The result in such event is that the words become independent of root-meaning. According to Western etymologists, that is good for the growth of the language. So, according to this concept, (example) poyilai is better than pukai ilai. When you say pukai ilai, the term shows its internal split clearly and makes one think of smoke on one hand and leaf on the other and causes a hindrance in the mind. The mind may have to travel through smoke, leaf and then tobacco. So the commoner does not want such hindrance. He just wants to refer to one item with one word very quickly. So he says piyilai instead of pukai ilai. The words corrupt and inseparably amalgamate into one. "զɣ . Those objecting should read western philologists first for a grasp of basic principles. But Tamil teachers and professors would stand in the way and say that poyilai is wrong. In language development, there is no rights and wrongs. Language is for communication, fast and unhindered communication. If more people keep on saying poyilai (assume so for argument), the pukaiyilai camp loses. Democracy is at work in language development. I am not saying this. Swedish and English philologists say so!

We must travel back in time to the stone age when people had few good equipment for their stone work. We must ask ourselves, what would have been the position then? Did they start making the greatest statue first and "progress" to smaller ones? or the other way round?

Not everything that stands is statue; not everthing that is small is silai!! If your listener objects, have ready answers.

Everything is contained in the language. So the study of language would involve everything.[/tscii:b1a25671c7]

A P MASILAMANI
23rd December 2004, 05:43 PM
[tscii:7844979752]contd

So, if someone says that when he looks at the word silai, the concept of "smallness" is not apparent. I have said some time ago: Tolkappiyar laid down that Ƣ ý ŢƢ ȡ."

"Ƣ ý ŢƢ ȡ."

Ƣ á â. ȡ ŧ š. âŢ Ƣ . .

ɢ ¢ Ţ â¡ Ģ즸츢ȡ. "" Ţ!? .

¡ ڸ ¸.[/tscii:7844979752]

A P MASILAMANI
23rd December 2004, 06:40 PM
//They seem to stand strong on the point that 'foreign' etymologists don't accept it and that we can't seem to convince others that these words like "Vithavai; Viduvai" etc as Thamizh root word.//

Western etymologists may not have known of the word vidu in Tamil and many of them looked at the Skrt dictionary for roots but did not look at other language dictionaries. Did anyone of those etymologists expressly made a statement to say that we have considered the very close-sounding word in Tamil pronounced vidu. Its sound and meaning seem to coincide, But,all the same we reject it!!"

They made their ruling in absolute ignorance of the existence of the Tamil word "vidu" then!!

Here, we can apply the principle in legal philosophy. If a point was never argued before a judge by the advocates and that judge makes a ruling on a certain point of law, the ruling is not binding on the lower courts and the lower courts are free to expound the principles by which they should decide. Reason: the judge made the ruling in oversight. He did not consider or failed to consider or did not have the benefit of the arguments to consider that point on which he made the ruling. Very sound?

So, the western etymologists decided under circumstances in which they did not have the benefit of knowing the existence of vidu.

I have great respect for Prof Max Muller. He took the same route as William Jones and thought that Sanskrit literature was the earliest in point of time in the South Asian subcontinent. They were all pioneers: they did not have the benefit of facts and figures that subsequent linguists would unearth as time went on. They expressed an opinion on Sanskrit without any external evidence. They merely had the Skrt literature in their hands and looking at it, they opined that the lit was the oldest in the world.
They believed that other Indians were not civilised until the Aryans came and tought them everything including their languages!! Why did they believe that? What evidence? Nothing! Their learned opinions only. A number of Skrt words were sounding similar to German, French, Lithuanian etc. That is all they had.

How many stone inscriptions were in Skrt? What was the date of the earliest Skrt stone inscription? So how can Skrt be 5000 years old? Some Prakrit , Tamil and Pali writings predated Skrt. If Skrt was the lingua franca, why wern't the stone inscriptions in Skrt? Why in Prakrit? Why in Pali? You ask them gently but firmly!!

That is the way to take them along the road to thinking.

In the event you manage to corner them, they would say: Neduncheziyan, all world languages borrowed from one another!
Let's leave it.

A P MASILAMANI
23rd December 2004, 07:28 PM
Thiru Neduncheziyan avarkale!!

Another way of approach is the concept of Suruthi and Smiruthi.

Much of Skrt was being chanted verbally for many decades and a few centuries before they were written down finally in about 400 AD. This stage of the language is known as "Shuruthi" or Suruthi. (from Tamil suraththal > to flow out ).

So the development pattern for Skrt would be:

suruthi (verbal tradition) > Smiruthi (written form).

It was considered unacceptable to reduce them to writing. There is a certain way to chant and writing them down would result in a loss of that "divine" sound. The Bramanas were vehimently objecting!! Many of their verbal literature base (vedas) would be lost and forgotten before they decided to write.

Since it was all verbal, it follows that they did not need any writing system. They later used Aramaic and finally settled on pre-existing Devanagari ( a writing system that some researchers say were developed by Nagathiivu people ). - the naaga worshippers and not the Brahma worshippers, as the etymology would speak for itself. (This is like the Latin maxim res ipsa loquitur in civil law). You ask your lawyer friend about this concept - he will tell you, but I do not know if he will charge you a fee.

But what was the Tamil language development pattern?

speech + writing all the way!! all the way!!. literature! stone inscriptions! other epigraphs! so many found........!

Thiru Neduncheziyan!! the earliest Tamil stone inscription found in Jaffna is I remember dated 300 BCE whereas Skrt lifterature was documented only in 400 ACE (AD) - a gap of 700 years.

Tolkappiyam and Sanga ilakkiyam were not chanted down.......They were written records.

WE HAD WRITTEN RECORDS BEFORE ANY OF THE INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGES.......!! I HAVE POINTED OUT MANY CHINESE WORDS SO CLOSE TO OUR TAMIL. THE JAPS have found so many Jap words so close our Tamil words!!

So, ask them: why do you still cling on to the 18 century etymologists and why must you close your eyes to the latest discoveries and researches?

I shall in turn deal with all interesting questions brought up by you.

In the meantime, get a copy of VADAMOZHI VARALAARU by Devaneyap Paavaanar and read it happily.

Do not worry. The more stubborn they are, the more enlightened you become. If no one brought up anything, we too would become rusty....

If nobody contested any case, the field of law would not have developed.......

What is hidden is only hidden to be revealed.

I will come back....

Nedunchezhiyan
24th December 2004, 12:31 PM
Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

nanRi

Yes you are right..we should tell them again and again. However they prefer the name Peruvankiyam instead of Nathasuram and so on. Anyway I printed some pages of your explanation and gave it to Thiru Sivam Paramanathan and he was eager to read them.

Please check your e-mail.

nanRi, paNivu Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

A P MASILAMANI
24th December 2004, 03:49 PM
Thiru Neduncheziyan avarkale!

A Tamil teacher has coined these words:

meter - niittar
ton - sumaiyam
kilogram - pannuuRi.

See whether they sound good whilst I search for words that might have been put out by the TN govt or other lexicographers.

NanRi, paNivaana anbu. :idea:

A P MASILAMANI
24th December 2004, 04:02 PM
contd..
//they prefer the name Peruvankiyam instead of Nathasuram //

Preference is OK. Between two or more Tamil words of the same meaning, one may prefer one and another may prefer the other word(s).

nanRi paNivaana anbu.

SEASON'S greetings T0 YOU, S.P., brother Geno and all other thamizanbarkaL.

A P MASILAMANI
24th December 2004, 10:09 PM
Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!

A paragraph from "Dravidian as the Source of Indo-European" :

That Sir Jones who knew more than two dozen languages, and was an expert in Sanskrit, Greek, Latin, Germanic, and Persian, and who was thoroughly convinced that not only Greek and Latin, but Sanskrit had sprung from the same common source, did not consider Dravidian in any aspect of its identity may also be adduced to certain other factors: Neither during his lifetime, nor until scores of years later, many important discoveries or findings which could have directly or indirectly influenced his thinking about the identity of the common source had taken place. The ancient civilizations of the fertile triangle such as the ancient Indian, the Sumerian, and the Egyptian had not come to light. Many ancient scripts had not been discovered or their languages divined. Rev. Robert Caldwell had not published his monumental 'A Comparative Grammar of the Dravidian or South-Indian Family of Languages' (1st ed.; 1856; London) even though he had considered only four languages as belonging to the group of south Indian languages which he called Dravidian. In fact, no one had heard the name Dravidian as the designation of the family of Indian languages until Rev. Caldwell, of all the scores of names of ancient Indian tribes listed in ancient Indian texts, selected it and formally introduced to the world. No Dravidian dictionary had been published, and it was not known that the Dravidian language family constitutes at least twenty-seven languages. And most importantly, such significant linguistic phenomena as the Indo-European phonetic correspondences had not been discovered, and the scholars had not recognized or reconstructed the Indo-European roots from which all the hundreds of thousands of Indo-European words have ensued. Compared to the present Age of Information, the 18th century, when a ship took about five months to reach India from England, was like the Dark Age, and Sir Jones was part of this world complete with its own follies.

K. Kumar

It(IE) from ithu(T/Dr)
Here(IE) from i (T/Dr) ; i > hi. hi+ ere (old suffix ) - here.
There: from T/Dr : ithu + a ; a (munnilaich chuttu). itha > there.
T: u = in front. (avan, ivan and uvan). u > English: You, address person in front.

T athu: that(IE). a+ thu = thu + a (IE). (syllables swap). thua> that!!

i + an (T) = ivan; = he.

i > (h)i > he.

chi - Tamil feminine gender suffix. T: chi = IE: shi.

If you get down to read details, too many.

Furthermore Skrt is only 1/3 IE. It is a made-up "language" of later years, mistaken to be of antiquity by Muller and Jones.

What are suffixes now, at a very early stage in T/Dr , they were complete words. It is due to constant usage they shrunk to being suffixes. IE sto;; preserve such words as complete words.

A P MASILAMANI
24th December 2004, 10:24 PM
So thiru Neduncheziyan avarkale!!

The old etymologists of Indo -Euro languages knew not about Tamil /Dravidian and they did not even know vidu existed and could be the root of their words in Latin and Greek!!

Whether they are IE etymologists or gods, only considered opinions are valid. Otherwise useless and it is oversight. One who relies on such etymologists is like the blind being led by the blind.

Presently, linguists say that if you can pick out 200 words ( of Tamil from IE), it is good enough to start an investigation. How many did Lahovery pick out in Skrt?

NanRi. Anbu.

Nedunchezhiyan
25th December 2004, 09:55 PM
//A Tamil teacher has coined these words:

meter - niittar
ton - sumaiyam
kilogram - pannuuRi.

See whether they sound good whilst I search for words that might have been put out by the TN govt or other lexicographers. //

nanRi Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae. I will pass on this information. I went to the Thamizh online source www.tamilvu.org or something. I searched for the word 'ton' and ended up with some result spelling 'ton' in Thamizh. That site is the Thamizh Virtual University or something.
I don't know if there was a way to get the information from there...anyway I got dissapointed by the result. I think one book which was about "Chozhars" had all these scales on the back. Chozhars had "Thamizh aLavu" for various things and they were amazing but I forgot the name of the book...that book was about "Chozhars." Sadly it didn't explain the root of the word 'Chozhar' like you explained and gave other possibilities.

Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae

'it' from Thamizh 'ithu' and the other roots you gave for Indo European 'he' 'she' etc is very INTERSTING!

Did the word 'kUlam' come from the word 'kU' which mean 'World'?

Season Greeting to you and to other Thamizhars!

nanRi, paNivu

Nedunchezhiyan
25th December 2004, 11:03 PM
[tscii:ac0feb2d70]Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!

These are the informations I have found on the net.

TON:
[Middle English tonne, a measure of weight. See tun.]
[Middle English, from Old English tunne, possibly of Celtic origin.]
http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://dictionary.reference.com/search%3Fq%3Dton%26r%3D67

The website 'www.dictionary.com' indicate that the word 'ton' to have come from the word 'tun.' I think there is a connection between that root 'tun' to the Thamizh word 'thUn' which mean pillar.

I referred to a Thamizh dictionary I have (a small dictionary). Under the leter 'thU' these words are given which I believe could be equivalent to the word 'tun' or atleast has some connection interm of the definition of 'ton' and perhaps of the root of the word 'ton'.

thU:

thU = [one definition is] valimai (strong)

thUkku = thonkum poruL, oru nirai aLavu, nirai kOl

thUNiththal = paruththal (growing big...)

perhaps the word thUkku is the equivalent of the English vocab 'ton.'


Now the word 'METER' (measurment).

This is the definition the website 'www.dictionary.com' provide.

Meter
[French -mtre, from Greek metron, measure. See m-2 in Indo-European Roots.]
{m-2 was typed as m with an e above the line but probably text error here}

[Middle English, from Old English meter, and from Old French metre both from Latin metrum, from Greek metron, measure, poetic meter. See m-2 in Indo-European Roots.]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=meter

When I looked at the definition above and saw that in Greek it meant 'measure' by the word 'metron.' I suddenly came to the conclusion of calling 'meter' as 'aLavi.' Then I searched in the website www.tamilvu.org and to my suprise they had the SAME DEFINITION! However I think these people haven't done alot of research! aLavi may not suit for the word 'meter' since measuring something is called 'aLavi' and it'd be difficult perhaps. Anyhow they also had 'pAeraLavi' for macro meter.

meter - aLavi

http://www.tamilvu.org/slet/servlet/o33.o33glos1?CboArea=Agriculture&txtalpha=m&Category=All&link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tamilvu.org%2Flibrary%2Fo33% 2Fhtml%2Fo3300001.htm



KILO from Kilogram etc:

Kilo
[French, from Greek khlioi, thousand. See gheslo- in Indo-European Roots.]
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=kilo

I do not know the root of the word 'gheslo.' It could be from Thamizh. Anyway the given definition is clear that kilo means 'thousand' and thats where that prefix came from. Hence we should use an abbrieviation or a word that means thousand in Thamizh.


Gram:
Gram
[French gramme, from Late Latin gramma, a small weight, from Greek, something written, small weight. See gerbh- in Indo-European Roots.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=gram

Gram here means a 'small weight' and again I do not know the source of the word 'gerbh' and that could be a Thamizh word. The small weight could be weight of an atom or an electron or a photon etc. However Thamizhp pulavars also referred 'kaduku' to a small weight although some others referred 'aNu' as a small weight (I do not konw if such argument took place). Nevertheless we should consider a small weight interm of its use and perhaps we could consider any grains or something that weigh small and measure up to 1 gram and which belongs to the Thamizh Community and which have been around with Thamizhars for a long time.

Perhaps 'kaduku,' or 'eLLu' or something. Maybe we could call Kilogram as 'aAkadu' taking the aA from aAyiram and shortening 'kaduku' to 'kadu' if we can by the Thamizh Language Structure.


//A Tamil teacher has coined these words:

meter - niittar
ton - sumaiyam
kilogram - pannuuRi. //

Let others consider these words and post their views.

nanRi Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae, paNivu :-)[/tscii:ac0feb2d70]

Nedunchezhiyan
14th January 2005, 09:58 AM
Thamizhar ellorukkum, iniya puththANdu vAzhththukkaL

Nedunchezhiyan
14th January 2005, 09:59 AM
Iniya pongal vAzhththukkaL!!!

TamilenUir
28th February 2005, 09:37 PM
Mr. Masilamani,

I had read your earlier posts on Sugar (Chini). You had mentioned the work 'Chini' is Tamil origin. The other Tamil word 'Sakkarai' for sugar is it Indo-European of origin, as it is close to German Zukkar/ Eng Sugar??? or it the other way the Tamil word for Sugar is the root word for the IE languages.
I had this doubt as I 'am not sure about the Origin of Sugar itself, was it originally an Asian item that was later known to the west or was it the other way.. Pls enlighten me on this...

Thanks

Sudhaama
1st March 2005, 05:20 AM
"TamilenUir"]

//.... earlier posts on Sugar (Chini).... mentioned the word 'Chini' is Tamil origin.//

The word CHEENI is not a Tamil-word... but added to Tamil Vocabulary as a "Thisai-Chol"... Its origin is yet being disputed whether Asian or Europian.

The True Tamil word for Sugar... so called Cheeni.. is... AKKAARAM...

... which word is profusely seen in the ancient Tamil-Literature too.

The Narasimhaswamy at Sholingapuram has been addressed by Alwars in Tamil... as ..."Akkaara- Kaniyae" .

// The other Tamil word 'Sakkarai' for sugar is of Indo-European origin, as it is close to German Zukkar/ Eng Sugar??? or it the other way the Tamil word for Sugar is the root word for the IE languages.//

The Origin for the Word Sugar... is the Portugese Word.. "CURGAR" meaning Sweet in that Language.

//I had this doubt as I 'am not sure about the Origin of Sugar itself, was it originally an Asian item that was later known to the west or was it the other way.. Pls enlighten me on this...//

Sugar was originally manufactured at a place called "ASKA" in Philippines, where the Sugar-cane growth was very plenty in those days.

That is why most of the Indian people used to call the Sugar as ASKA or Aska-Sarkkarai in Tamil during the British days.

Even though Sugar-cane so called Karumbu in Tamil was not new to India... since grown for more than a thousand years... Indians were only manufacturing ... Gurh / "VELLAM" out of it and Not the Sugar which product was a new Introduction to the Indian market by the Portugese Traders... prior to British entry into India.

History says... that during Pre-British-period... the Overseas trade with India... by Exports and Imports... was carried out prominently by the Persian and Portugese Traders...

Hence we are able to have lot of Persian and Portugese words mixed up in all the Indian Languages including Tamil, like

.. Sari,... Jannal... Chummaadu... Dhinusu...Kadudhaasi,... etc.

Portugese Traders introduced and encouraged the growth of Sugar-cane and further the manufacture of Sugar-products in India... which they exported to Europian countries, where Sugar-cane cannot grow.

Till then the Europians were manufacturing Sugar out of Beet-Root .. which was costlier as also of limited Quantity unable to meet the High quantum of Western Market-demand

Not only Sugar but also Chilly, Tobacco, Coffee, Rubber, Tea, Chocolate(Cocoa)... etc. were the new Introductions by these Traders to India for Growth and Manufacture of End-products... for their Trade.

Idiappam
4th March 2005, 10:06 AM
"TamilenUir"]


The Origin for the Word Sugar... is the Portugese Word.. "CURGAR" meaning Sweet in that Language.



Arunagirinathar used the word 'Sarkkarai' in his Thirupugazh! "pakkarai vichitharamani ...... Sarkkarai parupudan nei...."

Arunagiri lived before the portugese era (around the 1400s).

The botanical name for Sugar Cane - Saccharum spp. - of medieval latin origin - resembles 'Sarkkarai'.

If the word 'Sarkkarai' is of non Tamil origin - introduced from IE languages, why is that word (or similar words) does not exixt in other north Indian languages?

TamilenUir
4th March 2005, 08:09 PM
// If the word 'Sarkkarai' is of non Tamil origin - introduced from IE languages, why is that word (or similar words) does not exixt in other north Indian languages? //

Hello Idiappam,

I think in Hindi Sugar is called by 'Shakkar' which seems to be very very colse to the IE word (Sugar in Eng and Zukkar in German)...

Idiappam
4th March 2005, 09:40 PM
Let's not include Hindi here - that has an heavy influence of Arabic! What is Bengali for 'sugar' - just curious!

Sudhaama
5th March 2005, 01:26 AM
Mr. Idiappam....

I am already well-known to you... from the Old Hub... Are you able to Recognize me?

Here is my Reply to your Questions.

//Arunagirinathar used the word 'Sarkkarai' in his Thirupugazh! "pakkarai vichitharamani ...... Sarkkarai parupudan nei.... Arunagiri lived before the portugese era (around the 1400s).//

Although Thiruppuhazh is a Divine-Recitation... Linguists Scholars assert ... that it contains lot of Sanskrit words alongside some Thisai- Chorhkalh also... Such alien words from Portugese, Persian and other Languages too are admixed in this high Tamil-Literature... they say. But I don't remember now the specific Examples to Quote.

Saint Arunagirinathar's Period is highly disputed by Historians... Most of them convincingly put forth that his period ... must about just 600 years back.... During that period Tamilians used highly Sanskrit-mixed Tamil as of Swami Arunagirinathar.

//The botanical name for Sugar Cane - Saccharum spp. - of medieval latin origin - resembles 'Sarkkarai'.//

What you Quote is for Sugar-Cane but not for Sugar itself.

In Telugu... the "Sugar-cane" is called.... "CHERUKKU" .... Hindi and almost N.I : "GANNA".

Sugar is called SHAKKAR....in almost all the North-Indian Languages... from the Arabic-Root.... since the Sugar was introduced to Middle-East too.... and so the influence of Purtugese Root might have set its foot there too.

//If the word 'Sarkkarai' is of non Tamil origin - introduced from IE languages, why is that word (or similar words) does not exixt in other north Indian languages?

//I think in Hindi Sugar is called by 'Shakkar' which seems to be very very colse to the IE word (Sugar in Eng and Zukkar in German)...//

//Let's not include Hindi here - that has an heavy influence of Arabic!//

// What is Bengali for 'sugar' - just curious!//

In Bengali, Oriya and Assamese... Sugar is called "CHEENI"

In Tamil it is also called so in the Spoken Language... because... in the latter days after Persians shifted their Trading activities more towards South America, Africa and Europian Countries... due to higher trade prospects and Profits... Chinese flooded the Indian Market.... concentrating more in Madras (Chennai).... resulting in the Main Bazaar Road of the City was called...

China-Bazaar Road..... presently NS.Bose Road... from Pookkadai to Parrys.

Since they had exploited and monopolised Tamilian market with their product... it was named as CHEENI...in Tamil too.... Two Names for one.

Same case with the Eastern part of India too... during that Time.

In the Sothern part of Tamilnadu Cheeni is different from Sarkkarai.
Cheeni ... = ... Sugar -- Sarkkarai. = Powdered Gudh/ Jaggery ( Vellam )

However... the Botanical Name for Sugar-cane... resembling... "Sarkkarai" ... is also a Good-point.

Idiappam
5th March 2005, 02:29 AM
Mr. Idiappam....

I am already well-known to you... from the Old Hub... Are you able to Recognize me?


Thank you Mr Sudhaama, for your kind explantion. And I am truly sorry I don't recognise you! Unveil please!

TamilenUir
14th March 2005, 02:48 PM
Hello Friends,

Recently I came across the German word for Round and it is 'Runde' This is very close to our Tamil word 'URunde'. So is the word for Head - 'Rundam' as it is round(I'am not sure if it is a Sanskrit word taken up by Tamil).
can anyone give me an insight into these words, the language from which this word originated and your reasons please...

Thanks

Srini

Nedunchezhiyan
15th March 2005, 08:28 AM
Thiru A P MASILAMANI avargaLae!

vannakkam

I recently come across this conflict over the name 'Sivan.' Recently on a tv show, Thiru Paappaiya clarified this name as something to have originated from the word 'sinan' which he gave definition as in that name indicated the 'Samanar'(Jain) God or the Buddhar. I also have found a Tamil dictionary denoting the meaning of this word 'sinan' being used for the 'atukak kadavul' which is of Samanar (Jainism) and or for Buddhar of bowththam (buddhism). What is your explanation to such issue?

nanRi, paNivu

Nedunchezhiyan
23rd March 2005, 03:01 AM
Vannakkam,

The Thamizh people face issue interm of coming up with the specific names for Army, Navy, Air Force ranking levels. Once Thiru A P MASILAMANI said here under this topic something like that because Thamizh people had group of people traditionally being involved in the military and whenthat when things went under foreigner hand and through time, these group of people formed into castes etc. I would like Thiru A P MASILAMANI to refresh on this issue if he can. Then I have told him about what Thiru Paranathan told me, which was that we could use the names of the trees like 'vEmpu' and the flowers of Thamizh Sanga Academy time to come up with these ranks. Although the European system or any foreign system is being used, there is no need for us to "follow" their foot print. I haven't come across any Thamizh ranking level that has been invented yet, and since only LTT is the only organization which is Thamizh and has Naval and Arm and Air Forces and the Thamizh Nadu with its state police, there hasn't been any enforcement yet occured to invent any ranking levels. Thus please input your comments regarding this and participate and we may come up with a new ranking system. Please take in consideration that we can't just apply names without reasoning and correlating them with the level of ranking by mean of nature or historical relation to the ranks. Not only that but these names have to Thamizh and Thamizh alone.

nanRi paNhivu

F.S.Gandhi vandayar
10th April 2005, 12:36 PM
Sanskrit was evolved from tamil. All sanskrit words will have root in tamil. Most of the sanskrit words contain a combination of two or three tamil words phonetically shrinked in nature.

We can give lot of examples for that.

Kallvan or Kallan was not evolved from the root kallham as sudhaama claims. It was evolved from the word 'Kal' which means beauty or 'mayankavaikkira'. Most of the gods of second century specified as 'kallar'. Thirupathy venkatachalapathy is called 'Sri kallar Piran'. Think about 'Kalllagar' a god in Madurai is called 'Chokkanathar'.Kalam and kalar were also evolved from the root word 'Kal'.

Mutharaiyar = Muthu + arayar. In this,arayar was evolved from 'araiyar' which was later arasar and now rajar in sanskrit. Not tharaiyar and the story chera,chola and pandya control.

F.S.Gandhi vandayar
10th April 2005, 01:04 PM
Sarkarai= Sarukkarai=saru+karai. It is taken from 'Karumbu saru' . That's why sarukkarai=sarkarai=sakkra=sakura=sugura=sugar.

Think about the word Karu phonetical connotation with/rhymes with saru (root word for karai which means wall or 'suvar'). Suvar cannot the distorted. Karai also cannot be distorted from cloth.

When sugarcane saru spread on cloth it cannot be removed easily.


And from Cheeni was from 'Srini'- Cheerni(tamil)= Cheer+n+e- 'Cheer' here means beauty. There was a custom in any language white and cleaniliness are called as beauty. Think about 'Cheer-sanathy' for bride.

Thiru or Srini means beauty.

for example the name srinivasan.

F.S.Gandhi vandayar
10th April 2005, 01:07 PM
Sarkarai= Sarukkarai=saru+karai. It is taken from 'Karumbu saru' . That's why sarukkarai=sarkarai=sakkra=sakura=sugura=sugar.

Think about the word Karu phonetical connotation with/rhymes with saru (root word for karai which means wall or 'suvar'). Suvar cannot be distorted. Karai also cannot be distorted from cloth.

When sugarcane saru spread on cloth it cannot be removed easily.


And Cheeni was from 'Srini'- Cheerni(tamil)= Cheer+n+e- 'Cheer' here means beauty. There was a custom in any language white and cleaniliness are called as beauty. Think about 'Cheer-sanathy' for bride.

Thiru or Srini means beauty.

for example the name srinivasan.

F.S.Gandhi vandayar
18th April 2005, 08:50 PM
Dear friends,

I happen to come across the discussion regarding some roots of words in this thread.

When we analyse the root of any word we have to keep one thing in mind is that the people who coined the new word must have some perception about already existing words.

Hence the root of the coined word and the old word will be same and will have same meaning.

Tamil is natural language and you can observe lot of words formulated with same roots.

All other artificial languages wont have that kind of root words.

Sitpikal and silai had same root 'sil' which means a small piece of stone.

Small pieces are carved out in stones and so the words formed.

kavai had root in 'kavvu'- a verb based.

kavanam, kavithai, kavarthal and kavasam-Kavvu is the root specifies 'abstract of whole thing'

kovaipalam-kovapalam- kovam+palam- Kovam is always specified by red. So red palam is kovappalam -kovaipalam.

Konam-Ko+am Ko-top most position-ucchi in tamil. konal,koni are other words having same root.

kalasam-kalayam-kal+am, rigid and made out of stone is the meaning. Later all kalasams are covered by gold or Impone(Alloy)

f.s.gandhi

F.S.Gandhi vandayar
20th April 2005, 04:23 PM
The root of words

Cauvery= kaviri= kal+viri- Kal means base. Compare words kalkol(base) iduthal,kalvai,kal-leg(Human element).

Therefore a 'wide base' is the meaning.

widhavai= vidu+avai. Avai here specifies the marriage sitting.

You would have watched the phrase 'sabayil mothiram podurathu
thane chiranthathu"- Putting ring in sabai is best. sabai evolved from avai.

Valluvar says koothattu avai.

Hence who unfortunately last the chances of entering into the avai
or marriage/husband /companion naturally might be called vidhavai.

f.s.gandhi

F.S.Gandhi vandayar
20th April 2005, 04:55 PM
Words root:

samutthiram=sam+mutthiram- sam is from um and am means clubbing.

Ezham=Ellem=suriyan

Elenkai=ellem+kai- suryan ray.

Ellem word is there in manimekalai.

Compare the word ellam-anaithum-all directions-sun has rays in all directions.

Ellem was a god of earlier tamils.

In the same meaning it is in elamiyan language of mesopatomia.

f.s.gandhi

A P MASILAMANI
20th April 2005, 05:31 PM
Sugarcane is (one of six species of) a tall tropical southeast Asian grass. The plant and its
product features prominently in the history of Europe in the 1700s and 1800s. Whilst the
colonial powers could have introduced large scale growing of sugarcane in parts of India,
it cannot be accepted that any European power introduced the plant for the first time in
especially South India.

The peoples of South India have had connections with SEAsia well before the arrival of
the Europeans. Raja Raja Chozans military expeditions covered various parts of South
East Asia. Much before that, it is said that even Karikalans forces reached SEA.

The home of sugarcane is New Guinea and Papuans are thought to be closely related to
the San bushmen, who migrated from southeast Africa in prehistoric times to populate
southern India and, later, nearby Australia. We are not without recent as well as remote
connections with sugarcane areas.

Tamil literary sources have reasons to believe that Athiamaans predecessors introduced
sugarcane to Tamilnadu for the first time from SEA.

The word Karumpu is a Tamil word and sugarcane was so named for its dark green
colour. karu + pu (suffix) > karumpu. The word kannal is again formed from the same
root: karu + nal > (karunal) > kannal (= sugarcane). At this stage, you can compare the
words derivation with karunadam> kannadam; the word karu > kaN > kaNNan means
black person (Krishnan). These formations would show that the root word is karu,
meaning black colour. Whilst we still have kannal in use today, karunal - the
intermediate form seems to have died out. But for cheruppu, you similarly have the
derived form as well, in cheppal. Cheruppu > cheruppu +al (a second suffix) >
cheppal. (chappal). Please note the pattern : the dropping of the intermediate r as for
kannal.

In a natural language like Tamil, it is usual for certain (intermediate) word forms to
become defunct after issuing out changed forms as shown above. Dictionaries and
literature often fail to keep pace with such developments. I do not think that any
lexicographer has successfully captured Tamil words/ usage such as aLLuuRu (drain),
anchadi (pavement), sivappaalam (red bridge), kayalaa (fever), muudaanku (lid), poRukki
kadai (second hand dealers shop ) and others so far. As times change, certain words go
out of use and fashion and others or other forms take their place.

Just like ordinary individuals take time to understand and respond, researchers too have to
go through stages. Anyway, their first reaction against a word would invariably be that the
word might be a foreign word. Even maangaai can be misuderstood as a Malay word
(mangga) because you will find mangga in the Indon and Malay dictionaries. But only
Tamil can give the root word, maa from which maa+kaai, maa+maram, maa+ilai,
maa+thoppu, maa + choolai, maa+kuyil etc flow. If you look at Javanese dictionary,
mangga is not divisible in such manner.

Prior to 1950, it was thought by some exponents in Tamil like K P Santhosh (Makiznan)
that chiini came from word chiinaa (China) because, (presumably), it came from China.
Sugarcane was also known and used by the Chinese. Sugarcane has a prominent place in
some festivals of China.

Sugarcane is traditionally used in Ponggal festival too.
A siddhar it seems, can consider himself as successful and as having attained siddhu if
a genus of sugarcane known as peei karumpu and usually bitter, tasted sweet to him.
This practice too, appears to be an old practice among them.

Other researchers studying the word kannadam (language) thought the word kannal
was old enough to be considered the root word of kannadam.

In Bharathithaasans stanza: Kandai nikar kannadamennum mozikaL, kandai means
kalkandu and the poet seems to subscribe to the view kannadam came from kannal.

However in the late fifties, researchers were certain that chiini comes from the word chin
(chinna) - small, referring to its granulated form.

Chiini is merely kalkandu (rock sugar) broken into small (coarse) pieces by pounding
(before the advent of machines).

(kal)kandu or kandai (big pieces) contrasts with chiini (small bits or granules). This
shows the way ordinary people think before they make words. Please note the usage: nuul
kandu ; kandu kandaaka thadiththu vittathu etc.
Chiini is an ordinary mans word and do not despair if you do not find it in any literature.

Tamil annai stands on two legs: ulaka vazakku ( peoples usage) and seiyuL vazakku
(literary usage).

Our views based on comparative word studies differ from those who disbelieve the ability
of ordinary Tamilans to make thier own words. Of course, these people also use many
foreign words for convenience. But chiini is not one of such words.

Europeans learnt many new words after coming to the East. Englishmen acquired words
such as bangles, bungalow. Similarly the Portuguese learnt new words from us.

IE languages like to borrow either from one another or from the people whom they come
in contact with or place names, like the word turkey. The Tamils do not have this last
mentioned habit of giving an item a name derived from a place-name. Furthermore, so
many things came from China, chiinaakkaaram, chinak kalkandu, chinaththukkiLi etc.,
The word china was added in these words to show their place of origin; this is not
padikaaram but chinaakkaaram; this is not panangkalkandu but chinaak kalkandu; that is
not our local kiLi but a kiLi from China!! That is not local vedi but china vedi (pattasu)!!
The word china then functioned as an adjective qualifying the name of the item. Thus
chiini is not the only thing that came from China.

Thus it is more probable that chiini came from the word chil > chin> chinna (small )
meaning grains or granules of sugar. That is the latest and considered view. It contrasts well with rock sugar which is kalkandu and differentiates it.

If a Tamil root word can explain the meaning of the word correctly, there is no reason to
adopt other uncertain courses.

F.S.Gandhi vandayar
20th April 2005, 07:55 PM
Dear A.P. Masilamani,

Thank you for your information regarding karumbu.

Your indepth knowledge about ground realities is remarkable.

china karam,china thukkuli,china kalkandu,(add) china kaliman(Mud) and chinei all contain polished/fair colour.

All the above words do not specify china or brought from china.

They were all made here.

The root of that words is cheeru/seeru which means arranged/refained/having fair look.

Kalkandu is by product while cheeni is made from 'sarukkaraippagu' with/without machine.

It will have dull colour. A china kalkandu is fair in colour.

The people named cheeni first and kalkandu next. sarukkarai is also a by product of cheeni. People called sometimes seeni sarkarai. It doen't mean small sakkarai. Because sarkarai has small granules than seeni.

Clean and white always are referred to beauty.

Srini the equivalent word for thiru evloved from the same root 'seeru'.

Kindly think it over and come to a conclusion.

f.s.gandhi

F.S.Gandhi vandayar
20th April 2005, 08:40 PM
some root words:

A language can be named to specify the nature of the people who spoke that language.

Thirayar mozhi=thiramil=tamil

karunadar- kannadar=kannada, Sankam literature specified vaduga karunadar.

thelivalungar=thelivu+alungar=thelungar=thelugar=t elugu

thelivu-clear, alungar-mixed, Compare kalangu,alanga nallur, alungamal, kulungamal

Thelugus easliy adopted sanskritised tamil culture and alienated from tamils.

malayalam= malai+alam, the place near malai, Compare uppalam-the place near uppu-salt production. 'Al'- means near. Compare 'Akkul'-al+ul.

tulu= a branch of old telugu= thuluthal=kilaithal=a branch of big figure. thuli also has same meaning.

f.s.gandhi

F.S.Gandhi vandayar
21st April 2005, 01:24 PM
Some more roots:

A word for luck-althittam-al+thittam. One of the meaning of al is 'no'

Without plan someting got is the meaning. Compare the words alli,alagu,alakku,ali - all have al root means allai/illai.

Note the equivalent word 'Tharcheyal'

Kamam- kam+am, kam is from am. kam & am means water/flowing matter. Two times it is used to specify its uncontrollability.

Compare the word amadu-am+madu. Am here means water.madu means nilam(land). A land near water. Maduvankarai- a village in Chennai near bay of bengal.

kamankarai-kam+am+karai= kam & am here also means water.

Hence kamam is one of the earliest tamil word when men used 'suttu oligal'.

amba samuthiram-a town name- am+ pai + samuththiram.

am and pai specifies water flowing.

The uncontrollable feelings flown out are specified by this word kamam.

In natham tham can be compared with thampaanku-themmanku-a folk song.

For wheel, after urulai, chakkaram was formulated through 'maram chakkai'-dead piece of tree- for transport.

In that tamils are foremost inventor in the world.

Kuyavu chakkaram was tamils first invention. 'chakku mara ennai'
can also be taken for comparison.

Anjali is tamil word.Agam+seli. internal feelings drived out.

f.s.gandhi

A P MASILAMANI
21st April 2005, 05:42 PM
Mr/Ms Gandhi,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Contrary thinking and alternative analysis is always good and welcome.

According to you : " The root of that words is cheeru/seeru which means arranged/refained/having fair look. "

So, cheer > cheeru > cheenu > chiini.

Is that the way the word developed, as per your study of the word?

Please share some examples where "r" has changed to "n" in other Tamil or Dravidian word derivations. Like "p" can change to "v" as in paku > vaku.

Regards.

TamilenUir
21st April 2005, 06:09 PM
Dear A.P. Masilamani,

I find some similarity between the Tamil and English words "Vetri" and "Victory". Is there a possibility of one being derived from the other. Your thoughts please..

Thanks

TamilenUir
21st April 2005, 06:23 PM
Dear Mr. Maasilamani,

I'am pasting this from my old post as I didn't get any replies for this query:-


Recently I came across the German word for Round and it is 'Runde' This is very close to our Tamil word 'URunde'. So is the word for Head - 'Rundam' as it is round(I'am not sure if it is a Sanskrit word taken up by Tamil).
can anyone give me an insight into these words, the language from which this word originated and your reasons please...

A P MASILAMANI
21st April 2005, 10:27 PM
Dear Tamilenuyir.

Vanakkam.

At present, there are linguists who point out that Max Muller and William Jones came across Skrt but had no idea of this southern language called Tamil. Thus they failed to even refer to Tamil/Dravidian as (a) possible source language(s) for proto-Indo-European language. Hence most Western linguists follow their predecessors and always cite Skrt as containing the roots of IE.

There is little real evidence that Skrt existed before 400 ACE. All inscriptions so far discovered used Tamil or Prakrit. The earliest stone inscription found dates back to 400 BCE and it is in Tamil.

Pali is even older than Sanskrit.

Some researchers conclude that there is no evidence for the claim of William Jones and Muller that Rig Veda was written in the pre-Christian era. Not all writers of the Rig Veda hymns were Aryans.Many could have been Dravidian ordinaries.

There are researchers who have come to the conclusion that Greek, Hebrew, Latin and Skrt were invented languages and it would be unrealistic to say that Latin or Skrt has the root for any word. These languages were artificially developed owing to the social and political necessities of the time. They grew or were enriched with roots taken from the surrounding regions ......


I am just summarizing for you. I am unable to gain access to the materials I have gathered owing to technical problems with my computer machines.

With this background in mind, I would say that the similarities you have pointed out would mean that the other languages borrowed from Tamil. According to some Western linguists, the proto -IE language(s) borrowed from Dravidian or Proto Dravidian at a very very early stage of their linguistic development. Dravidian was spoken in West Asia (around Iraq) very long ago. Pl see the old posts in this thread and under another thread : Dead Skrt is always dead. (The use of the word "dead" has been objected to.)
Many world languages have Tamil/Dravidian elements in them.


compare: for ease of ref, I use the Eng words.

vel > vetri with IE valour, victory
uruL > urundai with IE round

You have pointed out the German /Latin forms.

Some have expressed the opinion that presently it is politically not rewarding and economically unproductive for any govt to fund a research to establish a connection between IE and Tamil/Dravidian. Hence this matter has not been taken up for research seriously.


Best regards

F.S.Gandhi vandayar
23rd April 2005, 02:42 PM
Dear Mr.A.P. Masilamani,

When we find out the root for any word we have to look into the vowel starting of the word. Because tamil was formed by 'suttu oligal'-a,e,u. Then the same 'suttu oligal' turned into words. 'Am & Al are the examples.

There are lot of vowel starting words in tamil than any other language of the world.

That's why tamil is natural than any artificial languages.

There are consonant starting words in tamil but were formed first by vowels and then turned consonant. This point is very much essential in finding out root words. Ex. Am- Um-Sam roots.

Ex. lathu(telugu)=consonant starting, elathu(vowel starting)=el+athu.

There are lot of words in tamil old literature which were not used in the available sangam literature. But we can find some of them in the people colloquial language/dialects.

amadu/maduvankarai is one of that word that I specified earlier.

Even in Chennai(Madras) colloquial tamil which is considered a worst dialect by tamil pandits has 'kalaaiththal' ' (making fun of)' a old word is used. Hence tamil pandits should get into the dialects.
There we can get lot of roots.

Neelu is old word in tamil literature. It has turned neer in tamil. Kannada also neeru. In telugu the same neelu is there.

There is no proto dravidian/dravidian. We can use tamil as a source of root words for any language.

'Ra' difference/ 'la' difference occured during later grown stage of tamil language. No phonetics rules have been followed anywhere in tamil grammar. That is why lot of languages were formed from tamil phonetically.

There is enough proof that tamil is the origin of all languages in the world. The newly formed languages must have mingled together/more than one artificial languages mingled forming the world languages of today's world order is apparent.

Hence, If we form this hypothesis and do research we can find lot of evidences. Already enough evidences are there but to counter other wrong conclusions we have to invent more in that.

//cheer > cheeru > cheenu > chiini. //

I brought to your notice,the word, Srini-srinivasan-seenivasan.

Srini means thiru and it came from seerani=seer+ani both means thiru. Sanskirt sri is formed from this.

we can give many ex.s for 'ragaram' left out/absence.

Chinnalappattu-a name for a silk sarree. 'Seeranalappakattu' is the correct form. Cheer+an+aal+pakattu. Pattu is from pakattu.

karattu valkai-forest life- kattu valkai

orumai & panmai- parunmai turned panmai.

kan-eye- karun turned kan. In kannan - karunnan is correct form.

puran-out- puran turned pun-an injury

Neer vilaaval- water dissipation/mixing to wipe out heat. In this viraval-paravuthal- turned vilaaval.

thattu-plate- tharattu-thirattu- turned thattu.

Likewise srini turned seeni with the absence of 'ragaram' is the correct evoluation.

//At present, there are linguists who point out that Max Muller and William Jones came across Skrt but had no idea of this southern language called Tamil. Thus they failed to even refer to Tamil/Dravidian as (a) possible source language(s) for proto-Indo-European language. Hence most Western linguists follow their predecessors and always cite Skrt as containing the roots of IE. //


I complement to this passage.

When Vinsent smith started to write the book 'The ancient Indian history' understood that Indian history must be started from south not from north during writing the foreword to that book. -Refer 'Oppiean mozhi nool by Devanayap pavanar.

Maxmuller who eulosized sanskrit understood in his later years that the elements of world languages should be searched in tamil not in sanskrit- Refer Rt.Rev.Robert Caldwell, A Comparative Grammar of the Dravidian/South indian family of languages(1976), Page 90-91.

f.s.gandhi

A P MASILAMANI
23rd April 2005, 05:18 PM
Dear Mr/Ms Gandhi.

Thank you for your explanation.

You have your basis for saying cheeru > chiini, though your views differ from those who held chil >chin>chiini.

In any event, chiini is Tamil word, however analysed.

I am satisfied that only Tamil and none of the other languages seem to offer any root for the word.

Pl carry on. Regards.

F.S.Gandhi vandayar
23rd April 2005, 06:39 PM
Dear Mr.A.P. MASILAMANI,

We have to find out the root in natural way. Words evolved in natural way by men but keeping their regularity by considering the other similar words before forming the new word.

Finding out rationality in roots must be based on that.

We need not be a great tamil scholar but some logical reasoning in finding out the similarities of words under same roots is enough to determine the result.

'Cheer' is the root word I 've selected based on its meaning and usage in comparative with other similar words.

Take another example, 'karpu' for lady's virginity/loyalty to her husband.

Normally tamil pandits take Kal+pu. Kal here means stone. 'Rock like behaviour' and so 'karpu' is the explanation from them.

I think there is no rationality in this and it seems to be inappropriate and artificial though our grammar allows 'kal' as root.

Instead if we take 'karu-karpam-karpam-karpu' it is associated with lady molestation based on the pregnancy.

In that way if we find out root words it will be suitable than any other thing.

f.s.gandhi

A P MASILAMANI
25th April 2005, 08:36 AM
We have to find out the root in natural way. Words evolved in natural way by men but keeping their regularity by considering the other similar words before forming the new word.



Mr/Ms Ghandhi, we agree on the basics.

It will be good if you would expound words which have been previously thought of wrongly as Skrt by pointing to their Tamil roots.

In this thread, only some have been touched upon so far.

Best regards.

A P MASILAMANI
25th April 2005, 10:58 AM
Dear Mr/Ms Gandhi,


Let me discuss with you the word "alamaari" (nilaippeezai). Some of my friends also asked me to see if this is a Tamil word. A researcher : Mayilai Seeni Venkatasamy says it is Portuguese. Following him, Dr Ku Saktivel who wrote " Tamiz Mozi Varalaaru" also says so!

What are your views?

F.S.Gandhi vandayar
25th April 2005, 02:18 PM
Dear thiru A.P. Masilamani,

The word 'Beero' has latin origin, followed in English and Holland and formed lot of words.

Unlike Beero, 'almirah/almiroe doen't have other similar words in Portugese is the data I collected.

Portugese came 300 years ago. But in Thanjore palace 11th century 'alaamari' is found in building structure.

Hence there should be some word other than 'Pazhai' -a sangam literature word - to specify that thing since tamil has more than one word as a noun for a thing depending on different perceptions originating time to time.

For example ulli-vengayam-onion, azhi-kadal-samuthiram-sea etc.

Alampiya madi- alammadi- alamari is the evolution.

Alamputhal-kai alampu-clean hand-kazhuvuthal-means clean and neat, madi-madam-'sami' madam is there in every house just like 'alamari'. Compare 'mada maligaikal-kooda kopurangal'.

Clean also means 'arranged'.

alangu means beauty. Tamil alangu - tamilanangu.

Alampu's positive connotations specifies clean. Its negative connotation on the other hand is water demoralisation. While cleaning hand water is spent/its configure is disturbed. From this the word "Azhimbu" is formed. Compare 'alampal vidathey'-Dont confuse/threaten others.

The 'viguthi'- 'ambu' is having connotation with prehistoric period and many words in tamil and other dravidian languages are having ambu as suffix.

The symbol 'arrow' in sidhu valley script specifies this suffix and Brahmi script also has this symbol.

When verbs are formed, the associated words had this suffix to specify arrowlike outcome. This specifies also the transformation of people from forest life to agricultural life.

From this we can detect the oldness of tamil.

Eventually 'alammari' is tamil word only.

Vakkalathu,vakkeel, thala etc. are said to be arabic words. But Arabic language got many roots from tamil before 3000 years ago.

Vakku and thal might be the root of the above words. It might be formed in arabia and came to india but the roots would have been with tamil only as history proves that the first language of men might be tamil.

We have to analyse in this perspective also when analysing western words.

f.s.gandhi

A P MASILAMANI
26th April 2005, 10:12 AM
Portugese came 300 years ago. But in Thanjore palace 11th century 'alaamari' is found in building structure


Mr/Ms Gandhi!

Exactlly, it is not a Portuguese word as some Tamil teachers believed without proper enquiries. It may be collected and entered into Portuguese dictionary. But that does not make it a P. word.

Clearly, maadi became maari. It is common change, d>r.

Another example: madi (die) > mari (die) > mari+aNam(suffix), = maraNam.


alamaadi > alamaari is right.

alam has many meanings and one of the meanings is :structure or inbuilt. The other meaning as you said is: alampu (cleaning).


So, it means "inbuilt maadi" or shelves.

Inbuilt is a more relevant meaning than clean. Don't you think so?
Those days, it used to be built onto the wall, as you have pointed out very ably? (Tanjore palace example).


cheers!!

F.S.Gandhi vandayar
26th April 2005, 12:13 PM
Dear Thiru A.P. MASILAMANI,

Thank you for your information regarding 'alamari'.

Presently I am staying abroad and so I could not refer other meanings from dictionaries.

I wrote from my memory.

I have to bring the available books in india to the present staying.

Please keep the discussion regaring words going.

cheers :!:

f.s.gandhi

Nedunchezhiyan
21st July 2005, 06:09 AM
Thiru A P MASILAMANI avargaLae

What does aNhdam mean? A Thamizh dictionary define it as 'veLi' or 'ulagam.' Is that equivalent to the English word 'Universe?' Does Thamizh has any words that mean 'Universe?'

I have recently found out that the Musical Instrument 'Veenai' has the head of the 'Yazhi' and I also have learned that Yazhi was a Thamizh Dragon, just like the Chinese have their dragon 'Chinese Dragon.' Yazhi helped Thamizhars or something. Would you be kind in providing more information regarding 'Yazhi?' The City of YaazhppANham from Eezham, how did it gain the name? The Yazh in YaazhppANham, does it mean the Isaikk karuvi 'Yazh' where Veenai came from? Or the Thamizh Dragon?

nanRi
paNhivu

aravindhan
22nd July 2005, 04:02 AM
I have recently found out that the Musical Instrument 'Veenai' has the head of the 'Yazhi' and I also have learned that Yazhi was a Thamizh Dragon, just like the Chinese have their dragon 'Chinese Dragon.'
Is this the same as the yALi (யாளி), which has the tusks and trunk of an elephant and the face and body of a lion? There are carvings of yALi-s on a number of temples in Tamil Nadu.

Nedunchezhiyan
22nd July 2005, 05:05 AM
I do not know,

Is it yALi or yAzhi? ????

Sudhaama
22nd July 2005, 09:29 AM
[tscii:c6bd5c0613]]
Dear Thiru ."Nedunchezhiyan"

// What does aNhdam mean? A Thamizh dictionary define it as 'veLi' or 'ulagam.' Is that equivalent to the English word 'Universe?' Does Thamizh has any words that mean 'Universe?'//

Yes .. Anhdam ( Tamil-word) = UNIVERSE.

Anhda-Velhi = SPACE.

// I have recently found out that the Musical Instrument 'Veenai' has the head of the 'Yazhi' and I also have learned that Yazhi was a Thamizh Dragon, just like the Chinese have their dragon 'Chinese Dragon.' Yazhi helped Thamizhars or something.//

In the ancient Tamil-Literature we find the mention of Word YAAZH only (Kuzhal inidhu YAAZH inidhu. :-- Thirukkuralh) meaning the so called Veenai in other Indian-Languages. We also come to know that there were 12 varieties of YAAZH (Veenai) with different names and shapes as Makara-Yaazh, Sakoda-Yaazh, Madhura-Yaazh. and so on.

Yaalhi Animal is diferent from the Musical-InstrumentYaazh Yaalhi was a peculiar shaped Animal the shape of which we find in the Tamil-nadu Temple Sculptures as a Combination of Lion and Elephant Heads.Perhaps such a Dragon-shaped Animal existed once upon a time similar to the Annam-bird resembling a Duck about which too we find in various Tamil-Literatures including Naidatham of Puhazhaendhi-p-Pulavar. Both these creatures even though do not exist now we find them in the Sculptures and Ajantha-Paintings too.

//The City of YaazhppANham from Eezham, how did it gain the name? The Yazh in YaazhppANham, does it mean the Isaikk karuvi 'Yazh' where Veenai came from? Or the Thamizh Dragon?//

Paanhar = Isai-K-Karuvi-Meettupavar (Kalaignjar);

Yaazh-Paanhar = Yaazh-meettupavar (Yaazh-Kalaignjar).

During the days of Chera-Chozha-Pandya Kingdoms Chozha-Kingdom was the largest in area with Tamil-Speaking people only (domiciled from the the main Chozha land of Kaveri-Delta regions of the present Tamilnadu) covering the whole region of the present Srilanka, Burma, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore and Andaman-islands.

Those erstwhile Forest-arteas unihabitable and uncultivable regions had been developed by means of the hard toil of Tamilians of those days.

A part of such a Chozha-Kingdom was the Island presently Yaazh-Paanham.

Such a name it got since the Land was gifted to the YAAZH- PAANHAR Royal-Artist on Yaazh. It continued to form part of the Chozha- Kingdom-Regions then... as a Sub- Kingdom under the Guard and Protection of the Chozha-Emperor... and his subsequent Dynasty. [/tscii:c6bd5c0613]

aravindhan
23rd July 2005, 03:20 AM
[tscii:69dbede49b]

Yaalhi Animal is diferent from the Musical-InstrumentYaazh Yaalhi was a peculiar shaped Animal the shape of which we find in the Tamil-nadu Temple Sculptures as a Combination of Lion and Elephant Heads.Perhaps such a Dragon-shaped Animal existed once upon a time similar to the Annam-bird resembling a Duck about which too we find in various Tamil-Literatures including Naidatham of Puhazhaendhi-p-Pulavar. Both these creatures even though do not exist now we find them in the Sculptures and Ajantha-Paintings too.


I think the yALi is called "vyaali" in Kannada and northern languages. One also sees them on temples in other parts of India. Here is a picture of a carving from the Konark temple in Orissa, which is quite clearly a yALi:
http://www.cs.utah.edu/~mbinu/images/orissa/konark/konark-Pages/Image17.html
There is a place in Bangalore called Vyalikaval, which seems to have something to do with the yALi / vyali - does the name have an old history, or is it recent? Do any of our resident Bangaloreites / Kannadigas know?[/tscii:69dbede49b]

F.S.Gandhi vandayar
23rd July 2005, 02:44 PM
First of all we have to keep in mind the letter variation of ra / la should be understood as phonetical variation / meaning variation seems to be present at first instance. But the root of these words will be same and root will have same meaning of what man perceived earlier. I have revealed this in many threads.

In the word Yazhi / Yazhi the root is Aazh / Aazhi since vowel staring must be the beginning of this word. Aazh means borderless / a thing having unmeasurable distance.
It specified Sea. When Urulai. Chakaram run long distance they were also called Aazhi.
Chakkaram found as circle and so Aazhi specified Vattam. Ring was found as Vattam and so Ring (Mothiram) was called as Aazhi. Very beginning mans primary instrument was created with 7 strings with its arms length less and round bottom shape and due to its big round bottom shape Aazh was named and it turned yaazh later. When elephant trunk (Thuthikai) was found like Yazh shaped it was also named as Yazh.

We need not tell that Kannada / other north Indian Vyali is from tamil.

You can find the above meanings in all tamil dictionaries. Hence the roots are the same.

Yazhp paanam the name signifies Neenda panai marankal and associated instrument Yazh which was made from Palm pots. The atmosphere in Yazhpaanam should be taken first.

f.s.gandhi

Nedunchezhiyan
30th July 2005, 10:27 AM
any more information on the 'yALi?'

The words, 'Sakotharan' and 'Sakothari' are they Thamizh?

nanRi, paNhivu

Nedunchezhiyan
30th July 2005, 10:46 AM
What is with the 18 Siththars who are widely spoken in the Thamizh history? When did these people live? What kind of breakthrough did they do? Are their work still available or lost in time?

What are the Thamizh symbol equivalents of the numerical values 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and 0?


The head of the yALi is found on the veenai's arm. A Thamizh teacher told me that the veenai is a representation of human body, as the strings are tied to a wooden representation of backbone structure and etc. That is when, he inquired us if we knew the animal which was on the veenai's arm. He also pointed out the fact that Thamizh people use these on 'manavarai' where the yALi is put in the display. How did this tradition come in use? What is the real story behind the Thamizh Dragon, yALi?

Idiappam
30th July 2005, 10:12 PM
What is with the 18 Siththars who are widely spoken in the Thamizh history? When did these people live? What kind of breakthrough did they do? Are their work still available or lost in time?

There are more than 60 Sithars - the earliest being Thirumoolar - (3rd Century CE) and the last Ramalinga Vallalar (he is considered a sithar too).

They are grouped differently in 18s by different people. Some are medicinal Siththars - Like Bogar, Pulipani, Theraiyar, ...

Some talk vazhviyal - how to live 'philosopically' - Like Sivakiyar, Pambatti, Kuthambai ...

Some, like Thirumoolar, wrote both medicine and 'philosophy'.

Do you need a list of names?

Nedunchezhiyan
31st July 2005, 12:36 AM
It would be great if you could provide with the names and any other references to their professions.

aravindhan
31st July 2005, 09:26 PM
What are the Thamizh symbol equivalents of the numerical values 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and 0?

If you have Unicode fonts installed, you can the Tamil numerals and how they were traditionally used here:

http://www.geocities.com/avarangal/tamil-numerals.htm

In modern times, the system has been rationalised a little. For instance, one sees ௧0 instead of ௰, and ௧000 instead of ௲. Similarly, 253 would today be written ௨௫௩ rather than ௨௱௫௩.

F.S.Gandhi vandayar
1st August 2005, 02:10 PM
Dear Nedunchezhian, :)

Kindly go through the posting dated 01 / 08 / 05 to have some details about Tamil Siddhar tradition in "Tamil is elder to Sanskrit" thread.

f.s.gandhi

Nedunchezhiyan
17th August 2005, 03:00 AM
What is the root of the word
'pAnam?' which is said to be a non Thamizh word and 'saaru' is the preferred alternative.

Thiru FSG, I think you once explained the root of the word 'suththam' from 'sutham' or something, would you be kind and post the root of the word 'suththam' here?

What is the root of the word 'sakOtharam,' is it Thamizh?

nanRi, paNhivu

Idiappam
19th August 2005, 12:15 AM
The incomplete list of Sidhars.


It would be great if you could provide with the names and any other references to their professions.

[tscii:992dac491a]1.
2.
3. Ƹ
4. ¡
5. 측
6. á
7. á â
8.
9. ɢ
10.
11. ΦǢ
12.
13.
14. ĸ
15. ġ
16.
17. ̾
18. ɢ
19.
20.
21.
22.
23. ɢ
24.
25.
26. á
27. 
28. â¡
29. š츢
30. ø
31. š
32. ɢ
33.
34. â
35.
36.
37.
38. ظ
39. 󾣺
40. þ
41.
42.
43. Ģ
44. 츣
45.
46. ɢ
47.
48. Ģ
49.
50. øâ¡
51. 򾣺
52.
53. 丢ɢ
54. Ţ¡
55. Ţš
56. š
57. š¡[/tscii:992dac491a]

tiruttakkan
22nd August 2005, 06:33 AM
[tscii:083d2b7639]Hi folks,

I can only point out similar words exist in Sanskrit/Hindi.I have no knowledge as to which word was the original and which was derived!

âĢ 󾾡 Ţ.

,,,,̽,(â),⺨(⃡),, ...all in kuraL.

khambhaa ¢ . ɧ?
츽-섽 ڨ¡?
츢-섽 ڨ¡?
- ڨ¡?


-섢. Ģ 󾧾?! or maybe the otherway round!

ġ-Ǣ Ģ 󾧾?! or maybe the otherway round!


ţ,,,,,,,,,,
,Ÿ,,,,,,, ,
۾,,,͸,,Ţ,, ,

á-, -?

,,,쾢,...
,;,

-̾?()- żƢ¢Ģ ġ. żƢ
â¡. żƢ 򾾢 𼾢 â.
ɡ á â.

-ơ .ɡ ¢ dhool ȡ ຢ.

(),()-Ȣ,(‰)-Ҹ,-...

[/tscii:083d2b7639]

tiruttakkan
22nd August 2005, 08:03 AM
[tscii:25aa866b2a] ȡ ¢ .-Ƣ Ţ. ̧?

:

,,,á,ŧá,á,Ţ,ý, š- ġ
żƢ ǡ? -ƢĢ ɨ¡? â¡.

Ţ :

ţ,վ,á,(ghadaa in Hindi is )...

츽 :

,Ţ,и , Ȣ,á,,,Ũ(upmaa in hindi),
,Ÿ(roopak in hindi), Ÿ,...

Ǣ â.ɡ .

-(pangaa in hindi loosely means trouble),-(khundak in hindi means irritation)...


ġ¢ θǡ Ƣ ,
żƢ ƢĢ ɾ? á¡ ȡ?

Ǣ â ƢǢ š Ƣ
ڸ. ?

żƢ Ģ á Ψ
ռ . ¡?

[/tscii:25aa866b2a]

solomon
16th September 2005, 12:43 PM
Friends,

Idiyappam UNCLE has given a very good list and is really wonderful.

Friends- Thirumoolar is dated 5th Cen.

Friends- Every other Sithar songs like Agathiar and Pathinen Chittarkal are dated to 18th Cen, only and I Shall put research opinions in my next postings.

MosesMohammedSolomon

VeeJay
19th September 2005, 03:54 PM
Sarkarai= Sarukkarai=saru+karai. It is taken from 'Karumbu saru' . That's why sarukkarai=sarkarai=sakkra=sakura=sugura=sugar.

Think about the word Karu phonetical connotation with/rhymes with saru (root word for karai which means wall or 'suvar'). Suvar cannot the distorted. Karai also cannot be distorted from cloth.

When sugarcane saru spread on cloth it cannot be removed easily.


And from Cheeni was from 'Srini'- Cheerni(tamil)= Cheer+n+e- 'Cheer' here means beauty. There was a custom in any language white and cleaniliness are called as beauty. Think about 'Cheer-sanathy' for bride.

Thiru or Srini means beauty.

for example the name srinivasan.

Are you sure?!...this had been discussed some time ago...belowi is the quote ...writtern by Dr. Jaybee (Jayabarathi)

At one time, refined sugar came from China.
It was in the form of lumps.
They called it 'siinaa kaRgaNdu'.
The fine sugar was called 'siini chakkarai'.
Just as they call camphor as 'siinaa kaRpuuram'.
There is also a type of salt called 'siinaa kaaram'.

Although pea-nuts or ground-nuts as they call in India is a native American crop. It was brought to Asia by Spaniards and cultivated in Phillipines. Phillipines was a long time Spanish colony.
When it was introduced to South India, it was called 'Manila kottai'. This later slid into 'mallakkottai'.
The original Indian chOLam is a small grain.
Pop corn is made from Indian corn. It was a local American crop. It was cultivated by the Amerindians(Red Indians). So the Europeans called it 'Indian corn' after the Amerindians. It was introduced to Asia by the Portuguese. They cultivated it in Macau, a Portuguese Chinese colony.
It came to India from Macau. It was called 'Macau cholam' in order to diferentiate it from the original local chOLam.
This word slid into its present form, 'Makkaa cOLam.

pls refer to http://forumhub.com/tlit/18384.8305.15.06.26.html
for more details...there is alot in the older threads (1998-2002)

Idiappam
5th October 2005, 07:03 AM
Friends- Thirumoolar is dated 5th Cen.

Friends- Every other Sithar songs like Agathiar and Pathinen Chittarkal are dated to 18th Cen, only and I Shall put research opinions in my next postings.

Learn how to shut your gap till you are ready with the evidences.

solomon
7th October 2005, 12:30 PM
Friends,

I have said this in earlier saying also and I even then referred the book for that - " Tamil Sitthar Padalkalum Viviliumum" Dr.MosesMichael FARaday, MadrasChristian ColegeProf, Publishier- CSI church.


Page- 9,10- the authors refers to the work of Prof.Kamil Zevilble's book "The Poets of Powers"- and quotes-" Tamil sittharkal sinthanai india muluvathum paravi iruntha "Thanthrika Yoga Iyakkathin Oru Mukkiyamana, Suvaiyana Kilaie ahum. Tamil Sittharkal parriya Aaivum Arivum tamilil mikak KUraivakavum, MElottamakavum Sirappu INdrium Irupatharku Oru Karanam- Athu Oru Sariyana Konathail Sariyana Parvailum Anugap padathathe ahum. Velippadaiyaga sonnal Tamil Siththarkal Iyakkam Indiavin Pira paguthikalil kanappatta, Ithanai Vottha Pira Iyakkannkalodu Voppidu Aaivu seiappadamal thaniyaga pirithu Aayapattathu.

TamiLNATTU Siththarkal Voppumaikal Arru Thankithu Nirkum Voru Suya Sinthnaiyalarkal allar enbathu VURITHI. Avarkal India Muluthum Paravi Nindra Voru Marabin [Pan INDIAN Tradition} Pirikka mudiyatha Voru Pirivinar Avar."

For Convinience, I Simply translate and give it any more- Pathinen Sitthar Kovai, collection has many songs of later dates,and based onthis we can sat this collection is composed and edited in 19th Cen, and Inclusion of Ramalinaga Swamikal and Kunangudi MAstan in this collection Proves it more confirmingly. Pages- 16.

The Author in Page 9, 10- Shows- In Buddhism, Two Thanthrika movements- Vagrayana and Sahajayana developed. In response to this at the same time in Saivaism, in NOrth INdia- came a Sitthar movement- called KaNphata Yogis or NathaSiththarkal, called Navanatha Siththarkal, and one tradition puts 84 Naga Sittarkal.
Korakkar and Machendrar are important Siththarkal.
We in tamil Tradition hve -KORAKkar, Machendrar and Bathruhari from this NOrth INDIan Sitharkal, with little Changed pronounciation. And this confirms that Siththarkal MOVement were Pan INDIAN movement.
Historical Researcher Pro.K.N.SivarajPillai in his book Tamilnattil Agasthiar, tells that books in the name of Agasthiar in Topics of Medical, Vedic t Mayamanthiram, Vasiyam - all shows that the author is a HYPOcrite(Vedathari). Famed Author of First Tamil Ilakkana Nool cannot have written this meaningless and No Depth , books which cannot be recommended to a civilised Society.
ThIS Books in Agasthar name are Worst Part of Tamil Ilakkiyam and to research them is waste of time.

Idiyappam, I have seen you putting articles with worth at some threads, but not once to reply me, But only to say something Against and YOU make yourself to Shame, please act Maturedly.

MosesMohammedSolomon

sivajayan
8th October 2005, 10:57 PM
Idiyappam, I have seen you putting articles with worth at some threads, but not once to reply me, But only to say something Against and YOU make yourself to Shame, please act Maturedly.

Solo maniac,

why are you trying to whine like a cub?

If you can't withstand then keep your self off from here.

solomon
10th October 2005, 11:36 AM
Friends<

Eveyword I have written, I have given with proofs, and I give it not from any Fanatic Author's replys, but from Renowned authors, acceptable all Objective Tamils, mostly quoted by FSG and Idiyappam and the likes, but Because it has been stopping you false Probaganda, so Attacking me is meaningless, I intend quoting extensively from Sangam Lit. henceforth much more.

MosesSolomon

Chappani
10th October 2005, 03:04 PM
FSG will come shortly to tame and educate our Solomon... So be patient and wait for the show to commence shortly :).

Idiappam
10th October 2005, 10:37 PM
Friends<

Eveyword I have written, I have given with proofs, and I give it not from any Fanatic Author's replys, but from Renowned authors, acceptable all Objective Tamils, mostly quoted by FSG and Idiyappam and the likes, but Because it has been stopping you false Probaganda, so Attacking me is meaningless, I intend quoting extensively from Sangam Lit. henceforth much more.

MosesSolomon

YOu will never quote anything in whole. your selective quote, to suit your purpose, omitting what is said in the same text to the contrary, is just another trait I have seen many Sanskritic Vedic stooges like you.

YOu have never prooven anything!

mahadevan
11th October 2005, 05:50 AM
Tamil and prakrits are natural languages that evolved over a huge period of time. Sanskrit on the other hand is a artificially created and perfected language. After Indus valley civilization there was an apparanet lack of a sophisticated language to convey the complex thoughts of humans in the northren part of india, so a group of people spend centuries to create a beautiful language called sanskrit. In doing that they borrowed heavily from the existing prakrits and already sophistacted tamil. In the begining thay called this language chandasa, even during buddha's time this language was called chandasa and still being perfected, when buddha was asked to use chandasa as a meduim for his philosophies he rejected and instead prefered the prakrits. Once that language was made perfect, a lot of existing indian litreature was translated into sanskrit. But since the language was made too perfect, it became too complex to be follwed in day to day life. It has been serving the limited purpose of liturgical needs in the Indian society. Since it has been associated with the religious purposes, it gained an aura of sacredness. That sacredness has been propgated such that the whole scenario of the genesis of the language is reversed, giving rise to stupid speculations like MST (mother sanskrit theory). So inconclusion forget tamil not even the prakrits came from sanskrit.

Anchaneya
12th October 2005, 12:23 PM
Friends,

WE get quiet a lot of Political statements rather than Linguistic statements, which are more influenced by the Popular Statements attributed to Devaneyan, Appadurai etc., but that were not there position, and few of big articles are put in Elder Thread.Please read in fully, before any repeat is requested.

sivajayan
14th October 2005, 07:49 PM
Tamil and prakrits are natural languages that evolved over a huge period of time. Sanskrit on the other hand is a artificially created and perfected language. After Indus valley civilization there was an apparanet lack of a sophisticated language to convey the complex thoughts of humans in the northren part of india, so a group of people spend centuries to create a beautiful language called sanskrit. In doing that they borrowed heavily from the existing prakrits and already sophistacted tamil. In the begining thay called this language chandasa, even during buddha's time this language was called chandasa and still being perfected, when buddha was asked to use chandasa as a meduim for his philosophies he rejected and instead prefered the prakrits. Once that language was made perfect, a lot of existing indian litreature was translated into sanskrit. But since the language was made too perfect, it became too complex to be follwed in day to day life. It has been serving the limited purpose of liturgical needs in the Indian society. Since it has been associated with the religious purposes, it gained an aura of sacredness. That sacredness has been propgated such that the whole scenario of the genesis of the language is reversed, giving rise to stupid speculations like MST (mother sanskrit theory). So inconclusion forget tamil not even the prakrits came from sanskrit.
Does or could it mean that The Gita is made after creating Sanskrit ?

mahadevan
14th October 2005, 09:32 PM
Hi Sivajayan
Gita was also translated to sanskrit, this apparently happened much later, some time around the birth of christ. Some of the philosophies and definetly the delivery style resembles semitic cultures.
The initial part of gita where lord Krishna decalre himself with I am this, I am that , I I I I I , if you juxtapose that with the initial part of bible/quran you may not see any difference. This style is starkingly different from vedic/tamil litreature

gaddeswarup
16th October 2005, 06:31 AM
I am in the middle of a trip and have not followed this thread carefully. I saw a message another site which may have some relavance to this discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/racchabanda/message/13961
Part of the message is reproduced below:

Here I am reminded of Sjoberg's comments (1992) on syntax of Indian
Languages:

"Thus the Dravidian grammatical impact on Indo-Aryan has been far
greater than the Indo-Aryan grammatical impact on Dravidian. How can we account for this pattern?"

Her hypothetical answer to this question was "agglutinative languages
seem highly resistant to syntactic changes". (Note that the Dravidian
languages are agglutinative languages).

Also Bh. Krishnamurti, a renowned linguist and an authority on
Dravidian languages, in his recent book on "Dravidian Lanaguages" (2003) says:

"It is the Dravidian which show evidence of extensive lexical
borrowing but only a few traits of structural borrowing from Indo-Aryan. On the contrary, Indo-Aryan (particularly middle and modern) show large scale structural borrowing from Dravidian, but very little lexical
borrowing."

To reconcile these facts he says "That Middle Indo-Aryan and New Indo-
Aryan have been built on a Dravidian substratum seems to be the only
answer."

Regards,
Suresh.
*[Footnote on "India as Linguistic Area" from Emeneau Paper in 1956,
where he argued how four language families have co-existed in India]:
Basic requisite to call an area linguistic area lies in which
languages belonging to more than one family show traits in common that do not belong to the other members of (at least) one of the families.

S Rajan
16th October 2005, 04:10 PM
[tscii:b7f014be3b]Hi folks,

I can only point out similar words exist in Sanskrit/Hindi.I have no knowledge as to which word was the original and which was derived!

âĢ 󾾡 Ţ.

,,,,̽,(â),⺨(⃡),, ...all in kuraL.

khambhaa ¢ . ɧ?
츽-섽 ڨ¡?
츢-섽 ڨ¡?
- ڨ¡?


-섢. Ģ 󾧾?! or maybe the otherway round!

ġ-Ǣ Ģ 󾧾?! or maybe the otherway round!


ţ,,,,,,,,,,
,Ÿ,,,,,,, ,
۾,,,͸,,Ţ,, ,

á-, -?

,,,쾢,...
,;,

-̾?()- żƢ¢Ģ ġ. żƢ
â¡. żƢ 򾾢 𼾢 â.
ɡ á â.

-ơ .ɡ ¢ dhool ȡ ຢ.

(),()-Ȣ,(‰)-Ҹ,-...







[/tscii:b7f014be3b]

¢ -

- ġ



Ÿ ġ

á

solomon
18th October 2005, 03:52 PM
Friends,

Mahadevan and Idiyappam were talking about Rig Veda, and Idiayappam has referred about the Varna classification refered in Purusas Suktham- Friend- here Poetically the author refers to the Work done by various Classifications of People as Teacers and Priests who do Brain work as from Face etc., and Rig otherwise does not refer Caste by Birth.

TholKappiyam dated to 100-150BCE, has complete Castesism to the core.

TholKappiyar- says Education only for First Three Varnas and not for Fourth, Religious Rituals only for First Three except for Few Occasions such as Marriage, birth and deaths etc., for Fourth Caste. Fourth Caste should not do other than Agriculture; where as Kshatriyas and Vaisiyas can do Agriculture also; thereby putting the Fourth Varna at Highly Disadvantages postion in the System; which is Mainly useful for HighCaste Non-Brahmins. Brahmins should do All religious Duties as Marriages etc., are all in Thol. TholKappiyam is very clear as Varna is by birth; which is the earliest reference than any Sanskrit reference.
ThiruValluvar has refered to Hindu Gods by name atleast 27 times, in Kural and I Have posted a few of them in Kural Thread already, please go through them.
ThiruValluvar has also refers caste by birth several times in various Kurals, though every friend would immediately refer to “Pirappokkum Ella Vuyirkum…”
-similar sentences can given on equality is also available in Manudarma.

Mahadevan- your claim from Orthodox is Fictional can be seen from your Complete Ignorance shown in Sashti Thread Posting, I do not Believe in Castes system, but I am giving only what is available in Tholkappiyam and Kural.

Friends,
What can be compared? Is there any meaningful idea is required?

Bible Old Testament- Called Torah or Law, and in Tamil Niyayap Pramanangal, also called Moses Laws; Muslims Quran calls them as
Towrat; and an African Mathematics Professor who was converted to Christianity resently -summerised these five books as- The God gave Laws inwhich he wants 400 to 1,600 Goats be killed as Sacrifice every everyminute-daily, and the Chief Bishop of the Jerusalem Temple has to eat 88 Pigeons every day- the Professor for Revealing was Thrown out of Church; the laws remains.

Tiruvalluvar regards Vedas at the most highest level.

In the Kodungondmai - Valluvar says Rain will stop raining if the King is ruling Badly; Is not No Rain in First Half of Ist Millenium, not bad enough for a Country? No as per Tiruvalluvar- If the King is still bad- the Cows will not give its Utilities as Milk, Butter etc., and The BRAHMINS will Forget Vedas. This is the worse for Valluvar than Rain stoppage.

Valluvar Preacjed people to follow Vedas

MosesSolomon

mahadevan
18th October 2005, 10:50 PM
solomon wrote: TholKappiyam is very clear as Varna is by birth; which is the earliest reference than any Sanskrit reference.

Are you saying Manu sasthra came after Tolkappiyam ?

solomon wrote: Tiruvalluvar regards Vedas at the most highest level.

Then probably he should have started the kural with peans to vedas, which he did not

solomon wrote :In the Kodungondmai - Valluvar says Rain will stop raining if the King is ruling Badly; Is not No Rain in First Half of Ist Millenium, not bad enough for a Country? No as per Tiruvalluvar- If the King is still bad- the Cows will not give its Utilities as Milk, Butter etc., and The BRAHMINS will Forget Vedas. This is the worse for Valluvar than Rain stoppage.

Here he was simply mentioning about the failure of the infrastructure followed by the total failure of the system, that includes what people normally do. What a foresight !


solomon wrote: TholKappiyam dated to 100-150BCE, has complete Castesism to the core.
Looks like he was elaborating the vedic culture

solomon wrote : Friends, What can be compared?

Please ask this question to yourself a million times, I have compared what can be compared.

Idiappam
19th October 2005, 01:15 AM
[tscii:a3ac445b34]Solomon lied:


ThiruValluvar has also refers caste by birth several times in various Kurals, though every friend would immediately refer to Pirappokkum Ella Vuyirkum

That's a diliberate misinterpretation of that Kural.


-similar sentences can given on equality is also available in Manudarma.

What are you talking?? You are saying Kural promotes caste, and manudarma promote equality??

What a lie!! Manu Smriti is the world's greatest book on casteism and racism - Sanskritist love that book![/tscii:a3ac445b34]

bis_mala
24th October 2005, 11:19 PM
Solo has taken great pains to depict vaLLuvar as a caste supporter amd manu sasthiram as a promoter of equality.

Manu was condemned by Bharathi as follows:-

chuuththiranuk koru niithi - thandach
chORuNNum paarppukku vERoru niithi,
chaaththiram chollidu maayin - athu
chaaththiram anRu; sathiyenRu kandOm!!

Of vaLLuvan he said:

vaLLuvan thannai ulakinukkE thanthu
vaan pukaz konda thamiz naadu!!

Would Bharathi say so if vaLLuvan was a caste supporter??

In any event, this thread is not for this topic on who was supporting caste and who was not.

mahadevan
27th October 2005, 11:22 PM
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCJAPAN/LANGUAGE.HTM

Japanese was originally a language related to Tibetan or a language related to Tamil that was introduced into Japan during the great migrations of Southeast Asian peoples four or five thousand years ago. This language combined with, you guessed it, an Altaic and an Austronesian language to form the contemporary language.

mahadevan
27th October 2005, 11:34 PM
[tscii:064739d9b6]Proto-World Language

In 1786, Sir William Jones proposed classifying Sanskrit, Latin, Greek, Germanic, Persian, and Celtic into a single language family that had come from a common origin, now known as Proto-Indo-European. Since then, many more language families have been identified and studied, and ancestral proto-languages reconstructed. Many linguists have been investigating deep relationships that link known families into macrofamilies. For example, Nostratic links Indo-European with Uralic, Altaic, Dravidian, Afro-Asiatic, and Kartvelian. Ultimately, all human languages could conceivably be traced back to a single origin, and this has been seriously proposed. The hypothesis is called Proto-World.

"A basic tenet of Nostratics is that Western comparative linguists, in classifying the world's languages and thus tracing their historical lineage, have been too timid ... According to classic Nostratic doctrine, the Indo-European language family is only one of six branches of a much larger family. This 'superfamily' the Nostratic family extends to the south, covering languages of northern Africa and the Middle East (and languages of India unaccounted for by Indo-European), and well to the north and east, covering scores of languages from Finland through Siberia all the way to Korea and Japan. The idea is that all these languages are offshoots of the proto-Nostratic tongue, spoken by a people who lived more than 10,000 years ago. Nostraticists, through the arcane detective work that is a primary pastime of comparative linguistics, have reconstructed this language. They have compiled a dictionary containing hundreds of proto-Nostratic words, modeled after the proto-Indo-European dictionaries that have long been accepted in the West as standard reference works.

The assertion that proto-Nostratic actually existed, though sufficient to inflame a number of American linguists, is innocuous compared with the second part of Shevoroshkin's world view: the Nostratic phylum is itself historically related to the handful of other great language families Shevoroshkin sees in the world, which means that all of them are descended from a common tongue. This language called, variously, proto-Human, proto-World, and the Mother Tongue would have been spoken 50,000, 100,000, maybe even 150,000 years ago, probably in Africa, and then diffused across the globe. And here's the kicker, the thing that gives Shevoroshkin a rock-solid basis for his bunker mentality: he believes not only that proto-World's past existence is apparent but that proto-World is itself apparent, its primordial elements distinctly visible in modern languages, as refracted through eons of linguistic evolution. He says we can now begin reconstructing proto-World, the basic vocabulary from which all the world's known languages have sprung."

-----------------------
the full text can be found at http://members.aol.com/yahyam/protoworld.html

amazingly out of the 27 proto words that was tried in this exercise, 12 words are still in use in Tamil even today.[/tscii:064739d9b6]

bis_mala
3rd November 2005, 05:29 AM
[tscii:17d917c451]You can find frogs in water or near places that have water like ponds and streams

The term manduuk(/g)am is made up of maN + thuungu + am There are two meanings to maN. As a verb, it means to wash or bathe. MaN > maNNuthal.

The other meaning is soil or earth, and in this meaning, the word is commonly known to many.

Though the frog is an amphibian, it mostly spends its time on the ground near to ponds and lakes. It returns to places that hold water in order to meet the female frog. Thus it is called maN+ thuungu + am = maNduukam = maNNil perumpalum iruppathu. Or maNNith thuunguvathu - an animal which bathes / sleeps in water. Here maNNuthal may refer to its mating habit in water.


The word thuungu becomes duuku, (th) to (d) as a result of sandhi. (word joining). Then duungam became duugam,( in grammar known as idaikkuRai) (dropping a letter or syllable in the center. )

Supporting example: see ilangu > ilaku..

Hence the root of the word manduukam is in Tamil.[/tscii:17d917c451]

bis_mala
7th November 2005, 08:04 PM
Paranjothi Munivar lived circa 16 c ACE. In his ThiruviLayadal Puranam, Munivar answers the question: "How did Sanskrit get its Grammar written by Panini?" Paranjothi believed that Panini learnt his principles of grammar from the South - from Tamil language. Hence in his ThiruviLayadal Puranam, he asserts that Siva Peruman taught him grammar. According to history, the worship of Sivam spread from the south to the north. Recent linguistic researches show that Sanksrit alphabet is modelled after Tamil as a, aa, i, ii and so forth and not as a, b, c as in other Indo-European languages. Paranjothi receives some support for his views from these research findings. Paranjothi was a great poet and it is not known whether he had carried out any researches on his own.

I have reproduced the particular stanza from ThiruviLaiyaadal purANam in another thread : pala suvaik kavithaikaL in the Poems/KavithaikaL section,

Some would say that mythology is rubbish, others would say that the stories there attempt to lay down moral instructions for people to follow and so forth. But they also contain historical truths presented in an indirect manner. Instead of saying PaNini learnt his grammar from a teacher in the south (which statement would contain no extraordinary substance) mythology says that Sivan (god of the South) taught paaNini, a grammarian of the north. There will be less constraints and objections if he "superimposed" the god on the teacher. We come across this in everyday life too. If someone is killed in an accident, one may say: well, god has taken him away! That cuts everything short and no one finds it objectionable in the circumstances.

bis_mala
9th November 2005, 07:31 PM
Apparent lexical borrowings by Dr languages from Indo-Aryan:

Some scholars conclude that if a word is found in Sanskrit lexicon and the same word is also in use in Dravidian, then, Dravidian must have borrowed it from Indo-Aryan. It would appear to be so but one must look further to see whether Indo-Aryan has the roots to that particular word. These scholars also presume that Indo-Aryan is older than Tamil (which was the view prevailing in the 1900 - 1950 ACE ) but since then, much more research has been done which does not support such a view. M Lahovery proved that more than one third of Sanskirt vocabulary is from Dravidian.

As opposed to comparing a whole word in Sanskrit and Dravidian, if the word is split and the roots can be shown to be Dravidian, then the word is a Dravidian word.

One example is thabuthaaram.

tharu + am = thaaram. (one who gives a child to the husband, i.e. a wife)

thabuthal (verb) = keduthal. ( Verbs are not borrowable from other languages.)

thabuthaaram - thaaram izantha nilai. This is entirely a tamil terminology and not even a hybrid term. This term is "vinaiththogai".

honey bee
9th November 2005, 07:51 PM
thabuthaaram - thaaram izantha nilai.

meaning widower?

bis_mala
9th November 2005, 08:43 PM
Not exactly.

This 'technical' term is used in poetics - in love poetry. If the poem situation or subject-matter of the poem is lamanetations of a husband over the death of his wife, then it is TABUTHAARAM or TABUTHAARANILAI.

The term is from Tolkaapiyam, the oldest grammar on the subject. The reference here is to the situation of the poem and not the persona.

bis_mala
18th November 2005, 09:57 PM
[tscii:d01f5bdead]ź ͨ¡ Ȣ츢. 了ʦʸ Ǣ ţ 측 ¡ Ȣ󾦾ȡ.

ź . Ģ á ո. ɡ, ¨ "źġ" Ȣ¢. !

Ƣ ȦƢǢ > â . -: > . > . á Ǣ .

ź ȦƢ¢ "" "" .

ͨ Ȣ > . ( + (Ţ̾) + (Ţ̾). â¡ ġ. ( + = â .)


> () > (ź) > ź. The intermediate forms given in brackets are not in use in Tamil, but in other languages.) ƢǢ ź ź .

"" (Ȣ󾢺ɡ) Ƣ Ţ, ɡ ż Ƣ¢ ̸ š 측. Ч, Ƣ ž. But lost word forms can be retrieved using these research methods as above > () > (ź) > ź.

ͨ Ȣ. > > > ( + + ) . <> . -: , . ( + Ţ̾ ).

> ź. ( > ), -: š¢ > š. > ĺ.

: ź Ȣ .
[/tscii:d01f5bdead]

bis_mala
26th November 2005, 04:26 PM
[tscii:1e4e4d7e1f]Tamil verb "mathiththal" means "grind" or "make soft". The grindstaff or churnstaff is called maththu, which is always put into the centre hollow of the grindstone to grind or churn. From this the word attained the meaning "centre".

mathi > maththu > maththiyaana > maththiyanam > mathiyam.

Please note that the word: kadai means in Tamil: grind as well as last (kadaisi).
So do not be surprised that the word maththiyaana came from the root to grind.

Note that madhyene in Skrt also means through the midst of or on the inside. It shows indirectly this idea of (charnstaff) in the centre or inside (the grindstone). This meaning is not completely lost. It is still traceable.

maththiyaana actually means naduvaana (nEram).

The term maththiyaana must have originated from people of the pastoral tracts who did much of the churning with churnstaffs.

Aso note that the term "idai" comes from the root "idu" meaning to "place" something. In other words "placed" between is the central concept here.

The root word for "mayyam" (centre) in Tamil is "mai". It comes from "machi" which is another form of the word "mathi" (grind or make soft). mai ("") is obtained by grinding some black coloured stuff, a vegitable matter.

Conclusion is that mathiyam, maththiyanam are from Tamil roots. (aanam = aakiyathu from the Tamil "aana" participle verb.)

Existing words extended their meanings in this way.[/tscii:1e4e4d7e1f]

Bebeto
26th November 2005, 06:43 PM
Dear bis_mala,
are my following assumptions wrong?

mathiththaal = to respect,
kadai = the shop

This was my understanding up to now until you came. I am a "former Jaffna Tamil", left SL 27 Years ago and was not, pardon me, taking care of and for Tamil since. I am sorry about it but the circumstances forced me to be so.

Good Work you, FSG and Idiappam are delivering, thanks. (Others may think different but I don't think that I am the only one who appreciate you three)

bis_mala
26th November 2005, 07:16 PM
Dear Bebeto,
[tscii:4e9a999878]Thanks for seeking the clarification.

mathiththal () has several meanings.

mathi() (verb Ţ) > mathiththal (noun  ). (This is the verb-noun Ƣ variety).
This word has several meanings.
1. churning, causing something to turn repeatedly so as to soften it. , ȢȢ ¡ ը š̾ *
2. being libidinuous.
3. estimating, considering, discerning, respecting.
We here dealt with the first * of the meanings.
can also mean moon.
kadai. (noun). - shop (noun)

kadai (verb). - churn (verb) - churning.
kadai (noun) = last; e.g. the last of the Sangams

kadai has also other meanings.
kadaikkaN - corner of the eye. ( = .)
ithaz kadai thiRamin - smile with the corners of your lips "stretched" . = . .

kadaikkutti - last child.
so on and so forth.

Kadai has about 11 meanings and it is also prefixed (ɡ ) to other words to produce a variety of other terms with different meanings and connotations.

kadaippidi = follow.
kadaiyam = the dance of Indrani. á .
kadaiyayal = penultimate.
kadaippaadu = resolution (not kadappaadu ).

Here we considered the meanings to churn and last or end only.
This is not exhaustive. Only relevant meanings are discussed, Grateful for appreciation Bebeto!! Best regards.[/tscii:4e9a999878]

bis_mala
4th December 2005, 06:40 AM
[tscii:e4993f19bf]ۦ (ţ) Ǣ âŨ "Ⱥھ" ȡ. ¢ɡ Ģ š Ũ Ȣ. ɡǢ š Ȣ. Чš š Ȣ쨸¢ Ȣ . Ȣ Խ ž.

" ھ" ɢ. Ǣ¢ âŨ . ɣ ɡ, "" .

? ħš §? + (Ţ̾) = š? ġ Ţ ž. 측: + = . ().

 >  >  ().

Ƣ Ƣ¡ ħ. ¡  Ǣ .

 , ȦƢ¢ .

EthEnumonRai (vIddukku) veLiyE senRu pEsith thirivathaiyE "paRaichARRuthal" enkiROm. paRaiyinAl oli ezuppAmal veRum vAyppEssAl parappuvathaiyum ithu kuRikkum. pinnALil ithu perumpAlum veRum vAyppEchchaik kuRiththathu. in-thach chsollaip payanpaduththuvOr veRum vAyppEchchai maddum kuRikkaiyil paRai paRRi n-inaippathillai. athaip paRRiya thadaiyuNarssiyum manaththil thOnRuvathillai.

ippOthu "puRam chARRuthal" enRa thodaraik kavanippOm. ithuvum veLiyil senRu pEsith thirivathaik kAddum. ithai oru sonnIrmaip paduththinAl, "puRachchARam" Akum.

chARam enRa sol En angnganam amain-thathu? chARRam enRallavO amaiyavENdum? chARu+ am (vikuthi) = chARRamallavA? sollAkkaththil in-tha vithi pinpaRRap paduvathillai. eduththukkAddU: aRu+ am = aRam. (tharumam).
(puNarchchi vithi enpathu iru muzuch choRkaLukku).

puRachchARam > puRachchAram > pirachchAram (pEssuvazakku).

thamiz mozikkuk aziyAmal kidaiththa n-UlkaL silavE. AkaiyAl puRachchAram enRa sollai n-UlkaLil thEdip payan illai.

pirachchAram enRa pEchchuch sol, piRamoziyil senRu Or uyarn-tha idaththil uLLathu. [/tscii:e4993f19bf]

bis_mala
7th December 2005, 07:00 PM
[tscii:67eec52d0f] . "Ǣ ţ;" ȡ .

ġ ! "" ȡ Ǣ ţ͸ .

> . sky where the sun and stars shine or emit light.

"" Ȣ. 츢Ǣ .

ȢŢ. ý, Ǣ ġ, Ţ, Ȣ ġ.

> .

š Ȣ. Ǣ 򾨸 â . 측 Ȣ: > ĺ ( Ũ).
š¢ > š. > . verb to think, , ¨ > ¡. ( á . + ¨ = ġ (.¢ ¡) š Ţâ ̧š!!

, Ȣ.

𦼡Ģ ġ.


kAythal enRa sollukkup pala poruLuNdu. in-thach chollukku "oLi vIsuthal" enRoru poruLuNdu.

n-ilAk kAyum n-Eram varaNum enRa pAdal kEddiruppIrkaLE! "kAyum" enRAl oLi vIsukiRa enRu peruL.

kAy > kAyam. sky where the sun and stars shine or emit light.

pazangkAlaththil "kAyam" enpathu AkAyaththaik kuRiththathu. pazangkAla ilakkiyangkaLil ithu uLLathu.

ithu pin AkAyam enRu mARividdathu. ithaRkuk kAraNam, kAyam enRa sol vERu poruLkaLilum varumAthalAl, kuzappam thavirkka, ingnganam mARiyathu enalAm.

AkAyam > AkAsam.

ithil ya enpathu sa vAka mARiyathu. pala soRkaLil iththakaiya thiripu van-thuLLathu. eduththukkAddukku onRiraNdu: kalayam > kalasam (maNkalan-thu vanaiyappaduvathu).
vAyil > vAsal. n-Eyam > n-Esam. Oy verb to think, Oythal, Oyanai > yOsanai. (Ayn-thu Oyn-thu pArAmal enpathu vazakku. Al + Oyanai = AlOsanai (.Alamaraththadiyil yOsanai) ivaRRaip pinpu vAyppuk kiddumpOthu viriththu n-OkkuvOm!!

A ennum suddu, tholaivu kuRikkum.

ippadich chuddoli sErththuch cholvathu piRkAlaththuk kAlavaNNam(fashion) enRum kURalAm.[/tscii:67eec52d0f]

bis_mala
21st December 2005, 12:07 PM
[tscii:8255c96c51], á ȡ ȡ . á , + Ǣ â.

ҧ .

.

+ = . (wet .)

+ = Ч. - â. â ġ Ȣ.

ħ .

+ = : ¢ â ¡  զ (զɣ) Ţ.


oruvan, n-ANAmal kONAmal n-ErAka n-inRAl avan kampIramAka n-iRkinRAn enRu solvar. in-thas sollai ArAyn-thAl athu, kampu + Iram enRa iru soRkaLin kUddu enRu theriyum.

kampupOl kONAmal n-iRpathu enRu poruL.

Iram enRa sol iruththal enRu ingku poruLpadum.

iru + am = Iram. (wet enRu poruLpadum Iram vERu.)

ithu paru + am = pAram enpathupOnRathu. paruththal - perithAthal. periyathu kanamAy irukkum AthalAl pAram enpathu kanam allathu kanaththa porudkaLaik kuRiththathu.

pAram enpathu pOlavE Iram enRa sollum amain-thathu.

kampu + Iram = kampIram : Ayinum piriththuppArkka mudiyAthapadi ippOthu issol orusol enRa thanmaiyai (orusonnIrmai) adain-thuviddathu.[/tscii:8255c96c51]

bis_mala
22nd December 2005, 05:24 AM
[tscii:db8f6e4d7b]Let's now look at the word "aachchaaram". This word can be split into "aa" and "chaaram".

One can clearly see that "chaaram" is made up of "chaar" (chaarthal) and -am (suffix). Meaning: "chaarnthiruppathu" or "substance" (uLLiidu),

As to the first word "aa", it is "aathal" or "aakuthal". Please also see my explanation for the word of "aasiir" before if you have been following.

Hence aa+chaaram is vinaiththogai variety in grammar and means: "chaaram aavathu". In English, it means custom, practice or usage.

The roots of this word are Tamil.

+ = . (Ţ򦾡).

.

+ Ţ츢Ǿ .[/tscii:db8f6e4d7b]

Also see in this thread:

//Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:01 am Post subject: how to decide? One example is thabuthaaram.

tharu + am = thaaram. (one who gives a child to the husband, i.e. a wife)

thabuthal (verb) = keduthal. ( Verbs are not borrowable from other languages.)

thabuthaaram - thaaram izantha nilai. This is entirely a tamil terminology and not even a hybrid term. This term is "vinaiththogai".//

jjsranjit
24th December 2005, 01:34 PM
Well may be it should be the other way around i.e Sanskrit was derived from TAMIL.
What is this we know that kal thoondi manthonda kalathil mootha kudi tamil kudi.
any way english, latin and greek are the offshoot of tamil.For ex. Cattamaran in english and tamil are the same.Any way after all language is a medium of communication.

bis_mala
24th December 2005, 08:54 PM
Well may be it should be the other way around i.e Sanskrit was derived from TAMIL.
What is this we know that kal thoondi manthonda kalathil mootha kudi tamil kudi.
any way english, latin and greek are the offshoot of tamil.For ex. Cattamaran in english and tamil are the same.Any way after all language is a medium of communication.



Research by Western philologists show that about 1/3 of Skrt's words are derived from Tamil/Dravidian languages, about 1/3 from Western (Greek, Latin , Avestan and others ) and the last 1/3 either unknown or from Dravidian, Munda and other languages. According to S K Chatterji, Dravidian has influenced Skrt's sound system and several other features.Skrt is a hybrid.

Yes, languages are just tools for communication!!

bis_mala
25th December 2005, 07:55 PM
Western researchers (linguists or philologists) classify Sanskrit as Indo-European and to find out whether a word is Sanskrit or not (disregarding for the moment the differences between Rigkrit, Pali, other related languages and the latter- day Sanskrit ) they look for equivalents in Old Iranian (Avestan etc ) and other Germanic tongues. If there is no equivalent, then it is a Dravidian word. The early Aryan had a limited vocabulary. If you adopt this method, Sivan, Vishnu etc are Dravidian.

If you do not believe in the Aryan Migration Theory of the Western researchers, then Sanskrit is not Indo-Euro. Then you must say that it grew up in India and the west-related words in it were then "borrowed" by Sanskrit. But all other words which have no relatives in the West may or may not have common orgin with Tamil words or were borrowed from Tamil and other South/Middle/Northern Dravidian languages now living as well as those extinct. Tamil is primitive and older; if roots show a word to be Tamil, then the word is Tamil.

A word may be said to be Sanskrit because of early documentation and usage and not necesssarily by origin. Some authors prefer this method. In this method, colloquial Tamil usage may become ignored and this is the risk. A colloquial word in one area may have found its way into literary usage in another area of a different language but then the roots of the word will betray its origin. I therefore sometimes think it did not matter whether a word is Tamil or Sanskrit or of other language. The roots are looked for usually with the view to better understanding of history and culture; also for definition of its meaning and proper usage.. This is academic and not for people to boast.

Note: The above was moved from: Evolution of Saivaism and it's development in Tamil Nadu from the Indian History & Culture Section.

bis_mala
25th December 2005, 08:07 PM
SRS wrote:



However, nowhere in the Vedas does it say Sanskrit comes from Tamil.


There is no language by the name of Sanskrit mentioned in Vedas

Sudhaama
25th December 2005, 09:53 PM
SRS wrote:



However, nowhere in the Vedas does it say Sanskrit comes from Tamil.


There is no language by the name of Sanskrit mentioned in Vedas

The word SANSKRIT ... means...

... a Reformed-Deed... Refined Act ....Improved Version / Form.

Such a name as SANSKRIT was given by the Sages...

... while the Vedas had been taught to them by Lord Brahma... it is believed.

While we are discussing the Greatness of Tamil ... in relation to Sanskrit...

... let not anybody denigrate that another Great Language of India....Sanskrit...

... which has been accepted and highly honoured by the International Linguistic Scholars..

.. as one more RICH CLASSICAL LANGUAGE originated from India... parallely with Tamil.

schnappi
25th December 2005, 10:33 PM
The word SANSKRIT ... means...

... a Reformed-Deed... Refined Act ....Improved Version / Form. What? Benzin? Sugar?
Improved version? Improved from what? Improved from which version? Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta,.... which release? Improved by what? Improved with what? With Tamil perhaps? Or did they start with Basic and improved it to Visual Basic perhaps? :roll:


Such a name as SANSKRIT was given by the Sages...

... while the Vedas had been taught to them by Lord Brahma... it is believed.
That means the sages first had to learn Sanskrit to understand Vedas. So, who taught them Sanskrit when Lord Brahma taught them Vedas? I also thought that the House of Lords is in London. I should ask my pussy cat because she had been to London to look at the Queen.


While we are discussing the Greatness of Tamil ... in relation to Sanskrit...

... let not anybody denigrate that another Great Language of India....Sanskrit...

... which has been accepted and highly honoured by the International Linguistic Scholars.. Ai, Ai, Captain! Your buddies still hold on to the Vedas and Sanskrit though of heavy bombardment.


.. as one more RICH CLASSICAL LANGUAGE originated from India... parallely with Tamil. From which hat did you dig it out?

bis_mala
26th December 2005, 08:03 AM
SRS wrote:



However, nowhere in the Vedas does it say Sanskrit comes from Tamil.


There is no language by the name of Sanskrit mentioned in Vedas

The word SANSKRIT ... means...

... a Reformed-Deed... Refined Act ....Improved Version / Form.

Such a name as SANSKRIT was given by the Sages...

... while the Vedas had been taught to them by Lord Brahma... it is believed.

While we are discussing the Greatness of Tamil ... in relation to Sanskrit...

... let not anybody denigrate that another Great Language of India....Sanskrit...

... which has been accepted and highly honoured by the International Linguistic Scholars..

.. as one more RICH CLASSICAL LANGUAGE originated from India... parallely with Tamil.

I touch on some of the specific points raised.


l
et not anybody denigrate that another Great Language of India....Sanskrit...

To say that Tamil is older and to say that 1/3 of Sanskrit is from Drvavidian is not to denigrate Sanskrit. I am just referring to research findings. Why not anyone take it as: "the great language Sanskrit is partly based on another great language Tamil".
Everyone should be proud that it partly came from Tamil.

Please read my post carefully. You will find that I just summed up the status of researches done and the corollaries and the logical progressions therefrom.


while the Vedas had been taught to them by Lord Brahma... it is believed...........

This is a religious belief. Not history. I did not touch on this in my last post.


highly honoured by the International Linguistic Scholars..

To say how the language derived is not to dishonour it! Anyway, the scholars do not honour it because of any belief in any religious dogma but because of other linguistic features which have nothing to do with the religion.

jjsranjit
26th December 2005, 10:04 PM
According to historical facts(Ref-wikipedia) Evidence of Tamil language in Brami script exists in 3BC and the tamil language is given a age of existence around 1500B.C.In comparision
Sanskrit is supposed to have existed through a proof of 5 BC only.
Tamil will undisputedly become the oldest language once light on Lemuriya is shed.

bis_mala
27th December 2005, 06:11 PM
[tscii:3b4b536eff] Ө Ţ츢ȡ. , ġ .

"application " Ǣ Ƣ ơâ . ӊĢ ټ ټ Ž ɡ Ƣ ȸ ġ . ý: Ž "Ń" â. "" ɧ.

ɡ, ۾ Ţ Ƣ . þ :

" ħ" ո. " ȡ" Ħ" .

Ĩ ȡ , ž Ţ , "" ġġ. ġŨ¡ Ţ Ȣ Ţâ ž .

application . ̾, о, ġ Ǣ . ( - to feed; > , meaning fed into a word; , Ģ  ȡ Dr š. ¢ Ģ Ģ Ģ ž. )

ը ɢ.

manu enRa sollai n-Am palamuRai kELvippaddirukkiROm. ithan poruL enna enRu Ayn-thu, athu thamizs sollA enpathaiyum kANpOm.

manu "application " enRa poruLil van-thAl athu arapu mozissol enRu thamizAsiriyar kURuvar. muSlim makkaLudanum maRRum arapukkaLudan ERpadda matha maRRum vaNikath thodarpinAlum thamizil arapus soRakaL pukun-thirukkalAm enpathaiyum maRuppathaRkillai. uthAraNam: AvaNam enRu poruLpadum "thaSthAvEju" enRa sol arapus sol enRu therikiRathu. "Ajar" enpathum angnganamE.

AnAl, mannuthal enRa vinaissol thamizil uLathu. pArathi pAddil:

"mannum imaya malai engkaL malaiyE" enRu varukiRathu. ithaRku "enRum mARAtha" allathu n-ilaipeRRa" enRu poruL.

EthEnum oru n-ilaimai mARAmal iruppathaRkAka, allathu n-ilaippaduththap paduvathaRkAka pOdappadum viNNappam enRu poruL koNdAl, "manu" thamizssollAkalAm. pinnar athu ellAvakaiyAna viNNappangkaLaiyum kuRikkumARu viriththu vazangkappaddathu enRu koLvathaRku idamuNdu.

Angkilaththil uLLa application enRa sollukkum palvERu poruL uLLana. athu vazangkuthal, seyaRpaduththuthal, muyaRsi enRellAm piRa arththangkaLilum vazangkappadum. (aruththu - to feed; aruththam > arththam, meaning fed into a word; mElum, ar enpathu oli enRu poruLpadum thamizvErssol enRu solkiRAr Dr saun-tharapANdiyan ennum AyvALar. angnganamAyin athu sollin oli allathu olitharum poruL enRum koLvathaRkidamuNdu. athu n-iRka)

manu enpathan poruLaith thodarn-thu kavanippOm.[/tscii:3b4b536eff]

bis_mala
27th December 2005, 06:14 PM
.
Tamil will undisputedly become the oldest language once light on Lemuriya is shed.

Light on Lemuria will be the light on the antiquity of Tamiz. Certainly!!

bis_mala
30th December 2005, 04:04 PM
[tscii:8f36ccd490]Ũ "" ; ++ . ھ Ţ .


+ + = ź > Чź > Чń. ( ; ).
> . (r and R interchanged in stone inscriptions and this measure was copied by other languages after Sangam age )


oruvanaith "thU" enRu thuppi EsuthalE thU+v+Esam enappaddathu. thURRuthal enpathum in-tha thUvin adip piRan-tha sollE Akum.


thU + Esu + am = thUvEsam > thuvEsam > thuvEsham. ( thU enRu thuppi Esuthal ).
thiRam > Sthiram.[/tscii:8f36ccd490]

bis_mala
4th January 2006, 10:03 PM
[tscii:74d78ce556]
۾ = .

> > (not the animal ) This is a rootword.

âҸټ >

+ + = ɢ. ( ).

+ = . = man.

+ = ɢ. = .


= ո , .

> Ӿ = ո ־. > .

> = ոĢ, .

= ɢ ո Ţ.

, ۺâ etc evolved from .[/tscii:74d78ce556]

bis_mala
8th January 2006, 09:24 PM
[tscii:1f26446a06]¡šá¢ Ǣ "" . Ţ: () . Ģ : , ھ.

() > > .
() > > = , ھ.
() > = , ھ.
() > = a devil (one that gives sorrow).
() > = a disease in which the suffeer feels lethargic. (a blood deficiency disease). ׾ .

.[/tscii:1f26446a06]

Nedunchezhiyan
10th January 2006, 03:18 AM
What are the root of the following words?

pushpaanjali
varNham

bis_mala
10th January 2006, 03:19 PM
[tscii:8d00c3981f][quote="Nedunchezhiyan"]What are the root of the following words?

pushpaanjali
varNham[/quote


pushpaanjali < pushpa(m) + anjali.

The word pushpam is from puu (flower).

puu> puupu > ~ + am > puuppam > pushpam. ]

+ (suffix) = + (suffix) > shortered to pushpam

This was one of the words identified early by linguists as borrowed by Sanskrit from Tamil. (S K Chatterji).

Ģ < 了Ģ ( ־).

compare: + = > .

Usually when is the second letter in a word, it corrupts and goes missing. The first letter may or may not elongate.

̾ > .
̾ > .

() > (). a chance or occasion that lays hidden for one to use.

> .
> . (> in combination with other words).

and so forth. When a corruption in a word is so predictable, it is said to become a pattern and a regular pattern will evolve into a rule in linquistics.



is from > .

> (general meaning:richness)
> > colourful insect.
> > .
> > (н )
> > (= ʨ ).
> â > â ( â , )
â > ý > ý > .
> â > ս > . This word is also doing foreign service in the north.

root thus shows a few shades of meaning all relating to drawing and colouring.

[/tscii:8d00c3981f]

viggop
10th January 2006, 08:05 PM
is origin of "Deekshitar" Tamil\Sanskrit?
Chidambaram, a temple in TN, is famous for its 3000 Dikshitars.
Muthuswamy Dikshitar is one among the trinity in carnatic music
What does this word "dikshitar" mean?.

mahadevan
10th January 2006, 11:09 PM
a preliminary try Mala/FSG can correct me

Dikshitar = thiku + sit + avar
thiku = directions, way to go
sit = conciousness
avar = the person

the one who know the way to go.

what is the etymology for the lastname of Madhuri Dixit then ?
:-)

Idiappam
11th January 2006, 12:46 AM
what is the etymology for the lastname of Madhuri Dixit then ?:-)

Probably a typographical error!

indian224080
11th January 2006, 08:33 PM
is origin of "Deekshitar" Tamil\Sanskrit?
Chidambaram, a temple in TN, is famous for its 3000 Dikshitars.
Muthuswamy Dikshitar is one among the trinity in carnatic music
What does this word "dikshitar" mean?.

Dikshitar is Originated from Sanskrit word "Diksha". Dikshithar is the One who provides Diksha. "diksha" is derived from the root diksh, which means 'to dedicate oneself, and is actually derived from a combination of two roots, "diks", which means 'to consecrate' or 'dedicate', and daks, which means 'to grow', 'to become strong' or 'to expand'. It could therefore be said to mean 'to expand (one's consciousness) through a process of dedication (to discovering one's own self)'. Diksha involves both giving and receiving - giving of one's self, and receiving from the guru.

bis_mala
11th January 2006, 09:03 PM
[tscii:41bc6e3ec8]"viggop"is origin of "Deekshitar" Tamil\Sanskrit?
Chidambaram, a temple in TN, is famous for its 3000 Dikshitars.
Muthuswamy Dikshitar is one among the trinity in carnatic music
What does this word "dikshitar" mean?

Dikshitar is a South-Indian-origin word but Sanskritized. It comes from from another word "deekshai".

Deekshitar etymologically means: one who has been given deekshai or initiation to be a follower.

Deekshai is an initiation process whereby a guru initiates a shysyan or follower.

Various groups may have various means of deekshai. Usual method is by the guru touching the forehead of the intending follower with holy water or other stuff (may be kungumum ) that the guru regularly uses in prayers. The guru somewhat draws a short line with the water or other thing on the forehead with his thumb starting from where you put your pottu (dot) and going slowly upwards vertically. He may be chanting something at the same time. You then become a follower. If the guru does not accept the intending follower, he may refuse to give the deekshai.

You may not find it in your Skrt dictionary.with your spelling. This is a special word!!

Remember I told you above about the line drawn.

ξ - .
ξ 쨸 !!

The root of this word in Tamil is probably lost in the Tamil language. It may be retrieved through comparative etymological methods.

() > (Ģ Ţ) +
() > . (Ģ Ţ). + .

ξ , ξ still exist though the root thiiL is lost.

+ = . This word exists in Tamil.
+ = () > 쨸. This word exists in Tamil.

Alternatively, you can use PaNini's method as in Sanskrit.

() >
() >
() >
() > 쨸.

Then just take the . , spelling changes as natural to the words!! Thus in this method, the root need not be a word by itself. It can just be a stem.

𺢾 = + + = (+) + (++) + = ++++.

This means the vowels & are dropped in the formation process.

𺢾 is a title used by the priests of the Temple in Chidambaram. They were probably initiated by some guru (claimed: pathanjali or thirumuular or some other deputising or some person claiming lineage through them. No way to verify.

Dikshitar - a specially ordained priest.

The above is just to explain the meaning.

I have received an initiation from a guru. Hence I know about diitchai.

Mahatma Ghandi was given deekshai by Paramahansa Yogananda and Ramakrishna Paramahansa by his Guru Totapuri if I remember correctly. But they are not diikshitars..


[/tscii:41bc6e3ec8]

karuvaadu
12th January 2006, 01:02 AM
When I was a young boy, well a lot of water has gone through the Kaaveri since, my ammammaa told me something similar like sekar ithai thiitti thaadaa and gave me a knife. What is the correct word Mala?

bis_mala
12th January 2006, 04:52 AM
Your ammammaa used the word "thiitti" (participle) in another meaning: "kuuraakki". (=sharpen).

thiittu has other meanings - not considered here. It can mean "an unclean state of a person when that person is not to be touched" or "a period where that person is secluded and screened from others"

Similarly the word "thodakku" may have the same meaning though it also means "begin".

Some words have been used in Tamil in positive and negative sense. These (above) words are examples.

The term "madhu" in Sanskrit can mean "sweet. pleasant" as well as "bitter, pungent". Meaning in a particular sentence will depend on context.

Mr Karuvaadu, make a collection of such words with opposite meanings for fun!!

Nedunchezhiyan
12th January 2006, 07:35 AM
[tscii:479976f6e0]Ģ, Ȣ Bis Mala


측 Ǣ ţǡ?

ġ
jathiswaram (; '')
â

Ȣ


[/tscii:479976f6e0]

Nedunchezhiyan
12th January 2006, 07:37 AM
[tscii:ee2c4f7c93] ' ' . Ģ () ¡? [/tscii:ee2c4f7c93]

karuvaadu
12th January 2006, 06:17 PM
Mr Karuvaadu, make a collection of such words with opposite meanings for fun!!

Madhu can also mean alcohol, isn't it?

My knowledge in Tamil is extra orordinary poor and I remember of certain things from my vast memory immediately when you come up with intial words.

matham (Tamil?) has two different meanings for example!

matham is religion as well as elephant running wild!

Just a comment:
Some religious humanoids also mathaththaal matham pidiththavarkaL (Well said isn't it?)
I am once again suprised at Tamil! :thumbsup:

bis_mala
13th January 2006, 05:17 PM
[tscii:f4168aaad3]Ģ, Ȣ Bis Mala


측 Ǣ ţǡ?

ġ
jathiswaram (; '')
â

Ȣ


[/tscii:f4168aaad3]



Thil was actually an expletive, a syllable sound without meaning occupying the interlude., correspondingly known in kavithai as asaichchol thil + aanaa = thllaana. Aaku> aana (from peyarechcham).

Jathiiswaram refers to notes interspersed with jathis ( rhythmic footwork one after another)
Thaam-thi-thai shortened to tha-thi and corrupted to chathi then Sanskritized to jathi.


Chura(ththal) (=flowing) > sura > suram > Sanskritized to swaram..


Alaarippu means expanded dance performace from alar(thal) = malarthal. = expanding (also flower blooming)

Alarppu > allaarippu.

bis_mala
13th January 2006, 05:39 PM
[tscii:c048ff5bb8]


측 . ĢȢҸǢĢ Ȣ.

ĢĢ 쨸, . Ч Ȣ Ģ + () = ġɡ .

Ģ !!

> > > > . ( + )

> from .

- .

> ġâ.[/tscii:c048ff5bb8]

bis_mala
13th January 2006, 05:42 PM
Mr Karuvaadu, make a collection of such words with opposite meanings for fun!!

Madhu can also mean alcohol, isn't it?

My knowledge in Tamil is extra orordinary poor and I remember of certain things from my vast memory immediately when you come up with intial words.

matham (Tamil?) has two different meanings for example!

matham is religion as well as elephant running wild!

Just a comment:
Some religious humanoids also mathaththaal matham pidiththavarkaL (Well said isn't it?)
I am once again suprised at Tamil! :thumbsup:

You are right. Busy. will revert later Mr Karu!!

Nedunchezhiyan
14th January 2006, 07:30 AM
[tscii:fe58f786e4] Ȣ Bis Mala

ǡ Ģ ţǡ?

þ , Ҿ ȢЧ. þ þ Ȣ ţǡ?

Ȣ [/tscii:fe58f786e4]

Nedunchezhiyan
14th January 2006, 07:37 AM
[tscii:e1ea83b8c2]'' ,  了ġ? â󾾡? Ģ ţá?

Ȣ [/tscii:e1ea83b8c2]

bis_mala
15th January 2006, 03:37 PM
[tscii:d494b0cec9]// Ȣ Bis Mala

ǡ Ģ ţǡ?//C

//þ , Ҿ ȢЧ. þ þ Ȣ ţǡ?//

þ : á½ þ . "¡" θ.

á "" Ȣ Ģ .

Ч, þ "" ( ̾) Ģ 󾧾. ̾ þ . Ƣ Ѩš Ţ , þ ¢.

þ Ǣ áġ.

:

-> - > > >

Rendering music(al notes) with dance footwork.

Thanks, will return.

[/tscii:d494b0cec9]

rajraj
15th January 2006, 07:30 PM
Mala: Bharatha was explained by a dancer as standing for bhavam,raagam and thaaLam. You differ from that. :)

bis_mala
15th January 2006, 09:03 PM
Mala: Bharatha was explained by a dancer as standing for bhavam,raagam and thaaLam. You differ from that. :)

That was an excellent explanation ex post facto.

Perhaps I can share with you the following "explanations"

There are 3 political parties in Singapore, where I work. They are PAP, WP and SDP. These stand for: People's Action Party, Workers' Party and Singapore Democratic Party.

Someone coined a joke as follows:

PAP = Pay and Pay. (referring to heavy taxation policy in some respects).
WP = why Pay? (This party was opposing the fiscal policies of the govt)
SDP = So Don't Pay!! ( This party may have told people to default paying taxes ).

There were many others : like:

SIA - Singapore International Airways / Sex in the Air!!

MAS - Malaysian Airline System /Mana Ada System (Where is the
system)

The word Hindu is said to be a Persian word. but in this thread, an earlier post said him+thu (one who denies "himsai" ) So the exponent said it was a Sanskrit formulation.

Thus it may be an ex post facto explanation, which coincides.

If it is Bha - Raa - Thaa (all elongated), does it fit in?

It is said the word Pakistan was coined in that manner using first letters of state names.

rajraj
15th January 2006, 09:28 PM
No Mala! I think you should read some books on Bharatha natyam and see what they have to say. :)

bis_mala
15th January 2006, 09:41 PM
[tscii:2cf6466a9f]'' ,  了ġ? â󾾡? Ģ ţá?

Ȣ [/tscii:2cf6466a9f]


"kOththai" is noted as having been used in Tolkaappiyam. Means a blind person.

kOthu - defect. useless.

kOththai < kOthu + ai (suffix).

Usage in certain areas may consider this word not refined but it is not inherent in the word itself.

bis_mala
15th January 2006, 09:54 PM
No Mala! I think you should read some books on Bharatha natyam and see what they have to say. :)

mm. ok, raj! it's good to read .It is always good to take into account all contrary opinions. I shall. Thanks. :)

Nedunchezhiyan
17th January 2006, 10:04 AM
[tscii:85899a12bc]Ȣ Bis Mala

Ƣ , վ ոȡ. Ģ ɢ ɡ Ţ¡ . š ƢĢ վ 𼨾 м .

Ȣ, [/tscii:85899a12bc]

Nedunchezhiyan
17th January 2006, 10:06 AM
[tscii:646293518d] Ģ ? , Ģ ţá?

Ȣ, [/tscii:646293518d]

bis_mala
18th January 2006, 03:25 PM
[tscii:7daeec8032]
Ө ¡ ,
Ƣ ( slang and usage of the uneducated etc),
š ڦ ǡ ,
 Ƣ

Ȣ,


¨ħ .

측 Ѩ â ʨ , .. 400 š츢 ب Ƣ¢ (skrt) 쨸 â Ĩ Ţ. ؾ 츢 ġ 򾨸 Ƣ Ш. Ƣ Ҿ ̾Լ Ѩ. 즸.

٨ â Ǣ âŢ츢.[/tscii:7daeec8032]

bis_mala
20th January 2006, 07:15 PM
[tscii:aeb574afe2]// Ģ ? , Ģ ţá?//

Ƣ¢ ŧš š ɢ, Ǣš.

> >   ġ. Ȣ¨Ч, ȢĢ ¨ Ţ츢ǡ.

> > = .
> = .
> > = Ģ .

.  , .

. Ċ Ƣ âɢ á (lexicographer) .. ¡ Ţ츢ǡ.

(Ţ) - 즸 Ǣ () stone etc Ǣ θ. . Ȣ : ־ - ξ .

Ȣ .

Thanks for asking. Will revert to continue. vaNakkam.
[/tscii:aeb574afe2]

Note: I could not find previous posts of others relating to "kal". Do you know whether there were /was any?

bis_mala
25th January 2006, 09:37 PM
[tscii:c8cc8e2fdb]Mr Neduncheziyan

// Ƣ , վ ոȡ. Ģ ɢ ɡ Ţ¡ . š ƢĢ վ 𼨾 м .//

Ƣ¢ skrt . ȡ, : "this very person [your worshipper] invokes you &c." also , further ; on the other hand ž ġ. ž: [RV. ii , 20 , 4] , him I praise , Indra , him I sing) Ǣ  ո. ɡ ɢ Ǣ Ƣ Ч .

() Ƣ¢ surpassing , conquering ; excelling , crossing , passage RV. ii , 13 , 12 ; viii , 96 , 1 Mn. viii , 404 and 407 Ya1jn5. (ifc.) impassable, excelling , Ǣ ո.

uttar (as in uttar predesh,) u +tar ɢ¡ â Ǣ.

 ɢ ¡ .

> > (+ +). Ǣ Ǩ 즸 .

compare: > , , .
> > .


оġ, ־, ־ ӾĢ. ɢ ը " " ȡ. "" ɢǡ.

+ = = . . given by superior before you can act on it.
+ = that which presents itself before or as prior or afterwards.' height, response, north,

+ = (compare: +, +).

In Tamil. the words are connected to "". In Sanskrit it (u) is not clearly showing the concept of "front", "up" distinctly. Therefore it is clear it is a Tamil word.

If you have any further things to ask on this word, pl do not hesitate.

Best regards vaNakkam.
[/tscii:c8cc8e2fdb]

Nedunchezhiyan
27th January 2006, 10:34 AM
[tscii:b0198de0a5]///Note: I could not find previous posts of others relating to "kal". Do you know whether there were /was any?////

ɢ, Ȣ ¡ Ȣ.


Ţ š Ȣ.

Ž[/tscii:b0198de0a5]

bis_mala
1st February 2006, 07:58 PM
[tscii:c5c8d61487]
nivR ż ¡ .

to turn back , stop RV. ; to turn away , retreat , abstain or desist from , get rid of ; to fall back , rebound R. ; cease , end , to be withheld from , to turn downwards , let sink (the head) ; to turn back i.e. shorten (the hair) ; to lead or bring back , reconduct , return AV. ; to turn away , avert or keep back from to give up , abandon , suppress , with, to restrain , curb , check , suppress , restrict

Ȣ , : > > Ƣ¢Ģ . Ţ 츢.

(ڨ ) , ¢ ġ째Ģ . ¢Ģ 츢.

Ȣ§.

â 측 ո

> . ( : ). > . ɡ, Ģ . ɡ , Ǣš.

Ģɢ żƢ nivR .[/tscii:c5c8d61487]

Saya Setju
1st February 2006, 10:28 PM
Dear Mala,

when I look at your avatar, I indeed do because you have minimized it to all it counts, I am set back to 1978, about 13 or 14, riding on bicycle after the school girls singing nadai annai peedu, idai minnal koodu - could have been by SP Balasubramaniyam. :lol:

You changed it because of pooja shankar?

bis_mala
2nd February 2006, 10:08 PM
Dear Mala,

when I look at your avatar, .........................bramaniyam. :lol:

Hi! I liked it: ladies should be trim and fit. Must exercise everyday. This is the message I get from the avatar. In your case, it has brought you back to 1978!! Effective in more than one way.


You changed it because of pooja shankar?
Well, received a message from God that it's good time to give it up. Cannot ignore God,,,,,

Idiappam
5th February 2006, 06:53 PM
I think I need a change of too. My avatar is losing its lustre!

bis_mala
6th February 2006, 12:41 PM
[tscii:958fe2c24a] Ψ , ĸ Ģ ¢󾾡, ""
ġ¢. â.

> > . > .

ǢĢ Ȣ Шب ǢθǢ Ȣ즸.[/tscii:958fe2c24a]

Chappani
7th February 2006, 02:40 PM
Hi,

Today I came across some words formations in Tamil - English/ Hindi(Sanskrit) and would like to know the roots.
The word Kol in Tamil is almost the same as Kill in English, Please let me know the possible root for this word and your reasons.
The Word Murder in English is very close to the Sanskrit word Maranam, as per Mr. Masilamani, this sanskrit word is of Tamil root, which means something like Maram tree, as this is the state of a dead man. This means the Word Murder is also one of the detrivative of tamil word... your opinion please..

Thanks,

bis_mala
9th February 2006, 09:42 AM
[tscii:8078b2a727]===========================
Very good question! According to legal history William the Conqueror imposed a fine on those who committed culpable homicide and he called this fine murdrum. He does not appear to have left any note as to where he took this word from. The word murder came from murdrum.

Conflicting with it or adding to it, the English etymologists looked for a connection to the word and eventually pointed their fingers at OE morthor and Old French murdre. The Germanic had a strikingly similar term and that was identified.. That was as far as they went. Sanskrit has not been adverted to by these persons. Sanskrit does not show it to be a fine imposed. Latin has mortua. Latin was invented language of the Roman Empire.

Tamil term: madi > mari. (to show you the full words ).

-da and ra interchangeable.


(mar) > mari
( mar) > maram

mari + aNam (suffix) = maraNam.

cf: kattu + aNam = kattaNam. and others.

Only Tamil/ Dravidian has the verbal root "mari". In MalayLam, it is still in common (home) use. Madi is in literary usage in Tamil. According to Western linguists themselves, if a language has the verb and the other languages have the nouns formed therefrom, the one having the verb should be the source language. Now apply this rule. Result?

I will write about "kill" later. Now pressed for time.
[/tscii:8078b2a727]

viLakkumaaru
10th February 2006, 10:08 PM
The Germanic had a strikingly similar term and that was identified

Mord -> murder
Ermorden -> to murder
toeten -> to kill
tot -> dead
Tod -> Death

bis_mala
13th February 2006, 09:44 AM
late (German) -- kol-lutal (Tamil). kill
wolte (German) -- ozithal (Tamil) die

comment: nil.

bis_mala
13th February 2006, 10:39 AM
[tscii:f9a161788b]
Hi,

The word Kol in Tamil is almost the same as Kill in English, Please let me know the possible root for this word and your reasons.

Thanks,

DevaneyappaavaaNar in 1952 (if I remember correctly) published few hundred words which sound very close or as you say: "almost the same as". Others too have published lists of such words.

PaavaaNar theorized that Tamil is the first mother of (all) other languages. "Muthal thaai mozi". Many quarters were displeased.

However, now Western linguists are working on a Proto-World Language theory, which might also be able to put an end to the claims made by people such as Tamils (one example in their minds, though not the only example).

They believe Proto-World Language Theory and the dispersion of people from somewhere near the Promised Land would also satisfy Christian doctrines and the relevant story in the Bible.

I have in one post pointed out in the History Section how the word makan (son) has close- sounding words in many other languages. Even mac (as in MacDonald). (This mac was pointed out by Western researchers).

Caldwell himself surfaced many homonyms between Tamil and other world languages.

Study of words (etymology) has been used in philology to construct language theories and then to reconstruct lost history. (For example, the Aryan Migration Theory).

CONCLUSION: Either Tamil is the mother of other languages or one of the earliest descendants of the Proto-World Language which is being presently constructed or reconstructed.
[/tscii:f9a161788b]

indian224080
14th February 2006, 08:58 PM
late (German) -- kol-lutal (Tamil). kill
wolte (German) -- ozithal (Tamil) die

comment: nil.

Is English derived from Tamil Aangilam?

wild think
14th February 2006, 09:32 PM
Is English derived from Tamil Aangilam?
Do you want to claim that English is an indian language?

This question from an MS of CS is telling everything.

bis_mala
18th February 2006, 07:06 PM
late (German) -- kol-lutal (Tamil). kill
wolte (German) -- ozithal (Tamil) die

comment: nil.

Is English derived from Tamil Aangilam?


To ascertain whether X came from Y language, linguists have their own means and methods, regardless of who X is and who Y is and where they live. Once those linguistic means and methods are satisfied, it is up to the people of other relevant disciplines to further handle the matter.

Just like if the radiologist finds and states in her report that you have cancer, it is then up to the physician to treat you, the surgeon to operate on you, the nurses to take care of you etc etc., If treatment etc., are not successful and you died, then the pathologist will do a post mortem and issue an autopsy report!!

If you are somebody, the newspapers will publish on you. Otherwise you will be just taken to the crematorium.

Of course, the common man in the street can express shock that you died. But for the rest of the others I named above, it is just another case.

Mr Indian -- "you" I do not mean you!. It's just a way of narrating.

bis_mala
9th March 2006, 03:13 PM
[tscii:35a475a1d5]żƢ¢ɢ Ƣ -ġ ....즸 "ĺ"...
ȡ Ȣ ո.

> . (¸ Ȣ )

ɡ 측:

-- . (¸ ȢЧ)

Ũ Ȣ. Ģ Ƣ, â.

+ = .
+ =
+ + = .

-- ĺ.
[/tscii:35a475a1d5]

stranger
10th March 2006, 02:18 AM
[tscii:38408a2303]żƢ¢ɢ Ƣ -ġ ....즸 "ĺ"...
ȡ Ȣ ո . [/tscii:38408a2303]

[tscii:38408a2303] ¡ ? :roll:

- ɡ! :)

â ĢŢ о!

= ĺ ! :D [/tscii:38408a2303]

Sudhaama
10th March 2006, 10:49 AM
[tscii:ee7fcf602a]
"stranger"

quote="bis_mala"] //żƢ¢ɢ Ƣ -ġ ....즸 "ĺ"...
... ȡ Ȣ ո//

¡ ?//

// - ɡ! â ĢŢ о! ... = ĺ ! //

ž ȡ á -ȢŢ........ â ո!!!!!!..... stranger, bis_mala ....

¡ stranger .... 򾡨측 -ȢšǢ ڸȣ... ׾?.... 즸. ȡ ЧŢ Ũ ţ- ?..... 즸 էš.... š 즸.... .
[/tscii:ee7fcf602a]

bis_mala
10th March 2006, 11:54 AM
deleted]

stranger
10th March 2006, 08:27 PM
[tscii:7b05ff9d5a]

¡ stranger .... 򾡨측 -ȢšǢ ڸȣ... ׾?[/tscii:7b05ff9d5a]

[tscii:7b05ff9d5a] â¡ â ; !

Ƣ 츣á?!

Ч Ţ!

ɢ š Ȣ¡¢ Ũ! :D[/tscii:7b05ff9d5a]

bis_mala
12th March 2006, 06:54 PM
[tscii]//Tamil-Culture was the most ancient.... as well as the PRIME-CULTURE OF MANKIND.... ever adopted all over the world...

... and the TAMIL LANGUAGE IS THE FIRST LANGUAGE OF MANKIND... ever spoken in comparison to multiplicity of savage-culture and their Audio-symbolic means of communications, UNWORTHY TO BE NAMED AS ANY LANGUAGE...

.. But they were the origins for several Great Classical-Languages like Latin, Greek, Hebrew etc.

By stating so.... neither those foreign Historians nor the Tamilians mean to under-rate other Cultures or Languages of the Global arena... ever in the History of Mankind... //

::deleted::

devapriya
8th April 2006, 04:02 PM
Friends,

We do not have a Single Lit. in Tamil which does not has impact of Vedas and right from Thoklkappiyam dated to 50BCE TO 50CE, and Tirukural all are influenced by Vedas.

Tamil as per Linguists of International Reputation- has heavily burrowed around One third words from Sanskrit and half that from Pali and Pragrit. So let us keep this in mind.

Devapriya.

bis_mala
1st May 2006, 05:11 PM
/
/We do not have a Single Lit. in Tamil which does not has impact of Vedas and right from Thoklkappiyam dated to 50BCE TO 50CE, and Tirukural all are influenced by Vedas//.

All the verses in Tolkappiyam are just chantings to invoke the power of god Indra and Brahaspathi. It is in fact a copy of Rig Veda!! This Sangam lit is just a collection of mantras to perform yaga.
What else can these be?


//Tamil as per Linguists of International Reputation- has heavily burrowed around One third words from Sanskrit and half that from Pali and Pragrit. So let us keep this in mind.//Of

course, of course, Tamils did not borrow but we burrowed all our words from them. Do not forget, during Sangam time, most of our Tamils had wives from ganges area, of international reputation. These words came from those wives.

arul_satish
4th May 2006, 03:08 PM
Can anyone explain me the roots of the word Oor(place).
I find many North Indian places named as Oor like Jaipur. Does this mean the Tamils were there in North India originally?

mugil123123
4th May 2006, 06:03 PM
[tscii:5fb675e8ff]Good news for everybody !!!

Here is the fact which says Indus Valley Belongs to Dravidians !!!!

http://www.vikatan.com/jv/2006/may/07052006/jv0602.asp

I am sorry, paste this Microsoft Word and choose font as Vikatan_TAM (you can download from vikatan.com)
http://www.vikatan.com/Vikat_tm.ttf

苊Ά A, .M. A, KC , F PM 裇 ޼ GJ, ܬ I A AFA... ܶ A , KF P F śG A ܶ!

މFM  K C OJ  M ̘i K , FM ꘄ ޡ‹ c裇 ޼A.  𣰋 A ފ AFA.

MK 죴 J 輂 ܼA H 臮K i 裙J, 塬 G  CK ꇺ ‚ , A. ܬ ⴈ裇 M F𣘊 ¬ I .

CK ꇺ,  ݇ G OJ EP A. I I  𣼜 J EP . ꇺ‚ 𣼜 MO ߴ . i F A ܉ , 臮 KF A I ޼ HJ ꇺ.

裆 ܼ裆C 裊 ޼ I ܬ 𣘈 M , ܉ 虬 FK ..v. FK Q , H ܉ L 舶 O K FA.

CK ꇺ‚ A ܉ , F F F 蟫K! 4000 ܉ 蟫K J 궂 ⿈ , C O K F ⿈ 制 ޼FA. މFM 蛪 K C O K般 F& OJL K ܙ, ܶ ރ P FM K G .  ޶ މ ˟ A A A ݌.

މ K 󣌉 O , L ݌ ꡬ ꘉ 裫. F ޶P 膫죋 ( FE O N CK ޼).

F M ޶ KI A  މ . J ݇ FM  F ݻ ޶. H ޶ ޼A. M ޼. , މ K Æ hw , A ޼A! A QFM  A산. ܶ AwAK, K, 裙L FO F AA.

 A K J A C O CF ⿈O 툶 H, ܫ CO CF ⿈ K IF  AFA. މ KJ  ⿈ I . F ꣙ 裬 ɂA F 캋 ܡ ꣙ H J 캋 F . މ ˟ AF II A FM N ޶. F I C OJ C N  މ K P補 A. މF P F 𣰋 ޶ S ꣡, 옉...

 މ K P M F ⿈ HF ޼A A I A L ݌ v ŠHJA. M CO P ݌ HKx OJA. ޡ‹ C O ފ AF މ K 투 M M ݌ 補.

ެ M I A & ݌, Q F 裆A ݘM, I F Q ܂ 裆 . ފ AF 裇 F ݌ 補 . M  F, F P ܬ MF, IN A  .  ޶ 틒 裫.

臮K 自촂 K P .H&J L裘 vL F EP 挾 蛪 CK 죂 ޘ dH C...

C O K FM L ݌ qv FK P ( I GF ܬ ﴅNQ CK ). , ܬ G M. Q‹ ޶ FM K舶 F 𣼉 󣽋 補 . Q, KO K F FM ꣒ ܙ v΂蜒 PH, ‹ ܘF P . C O K, FM ޼ M, K ޼ ޙ. 옉 ޶ 󣌄C ݌ IF ެ 臮 GH .

ޫ L裘 F QF F 죂 v.꣉FQ I J, މFM ̘i FM 輈 󣌉 I F , H..G 裘 H I P P. , ެ ܉ O ݃AF N IN A M,  M ܃W A . ܫ, ꡬ F 挾 CK ͘F, QFM A O ޼ A C O K ⿈ ެ퉶 A. ެ A ܙ. ܶ N 致H .

 L  F ‹ I ß 裆C C O CO P 致H. 臮K 致H ݌ IN F ݃AF  OJ , A FM  K ̘ F .

I ꋪN A ܉v P މ F, މF򣾂 K 裴 FM  ̘ GH K A J AFA. JJ F ܜOM CF, ݆CJ H މ M 装 致裇죙, I Q F ꉫJ! CF ⿈!

M 自촂 C O CF ⿈ ޶ 򣼋 PF 輈 ޼A. , ܉ ⿈ 躮 1938& qv FK GHFA. F ⿈ ܶ P ꣙. F P ꣙. ޶ I ⿈ P.

މ CF ⿈ w, Y N ⿈ H 𮈶. ܬ H AF. , IF މ ⿈ AF qv FK K 輈 A AFA.

މ CF ⿈ 躮  F GHFO 裫‹ . c މ ⿈ 𮂰 CJ A , F P 裇 ޶ P JC O. ܊, ޶ c C. F GM죽 FF މ C G. G CF ⿈O FF M K ꣙LJA. , F ܉ CF ⿈ HM v.


[/tscii:5fb675e8ff]

Sudhaama
4th May 2006, 08:23 PM
Can anyone explain me the roots of the word Oor(place). I find many North Indian places named as Oor like Jaipur. Does this mean the Tamils were there in North India originally?

The Tamil-word..OOR ...rather the common-word for all the Dravidian- Languages...

...is different from the North-Indian ..PUR... and not emanated from Tamil.

Originally these names of the Places were of Sanskrit... as NAGAPURI, KARNAPURI, JAYAPURI, SIRAPURI, NAYANAPURI and the like.

Suibsequently when a new Language HINDI emanated as the Offshoot of Sanskrit...

... along with the admixture of alien Languages like Arab, Hebrew, Persian, Portugese etc....

...Nagapuri became NAGPUR.. .Karnapuri- KANPUR... Jayapuri-JAIPUR... Sirapuri-SIRPUR... Nayanapuri-NAINPUR and the like.. in Hindi pronunciation..

'PURI' in Sanskrit means OOR in Tamil.

But on your another Question... my Answer is...

Yes. Tamils rather Tamilians named DRAVIDIANS... were from North-Indian regions only... as the PRIME-HUMAN Generation on Earth..

... who expanded their Kingdom to South-India ..occupying different Sub-regions within

You can note... during Mahabharatha and Ramayana periods... the whole of South India was of dense fertile forests....

...with NO MANKIND at all ..Not even Tribals or Savages...except Monkeys as the Rulers.

At such times of pre-Historic days... Tamilians were inhabited spread over in North India.

Because they were MIGRATORY by natural attitude...being DYNAMIC AND ACTIVE constantly towards Advancement in Life...

...they were named by the then Sanskrit-patroniser- Kings.. as DRAVIDA in Sanskrit...meaning WAGABOND....

DRU = Move... as in Dravyam = Money , since it moves from hand to hand.

We can find several Tamil-words in Hindi, Bengali, Marathi etc, no doubt.... but not this word...OOR..

mugil123123
5th May 2006, 11:02 AM
I am posting the Hindu link now

"Discovery of a century" in Tamil Nadu

http://www.hindu.com/2006/05/01/stories/2006050112670100.htm

T.S. Subramanian

Stone axe with Indus Valley script found near Mayiladuthurai

CHENNAI: A Neolithic stone celt with the Indus Valley script has been discovered by a school teacher, V. Shanmuganathan, in a village called Sembian-Kandiyur near Mayiladuthurai in Nagapattinam district, Tamil Nadu. The celt, a polished hand-held stone axe, has four Indus Valley signs on it. The artefact with the script can be as old as 1500 B.C., that is, 3,500 years old. The four signs were identified by epigraphists of the Tamil Nadu Department of Archaeology, according to its Special Commissioner, T. S. Sridhar.

Iravatham Mahadevan, one of the world's foremost experts on the Indus script, called the find "the greatest archaeological discovery of a century in Tamil Nadu." The discovery proved that the Indus script had reached Tamil Nadu. He estimated the date of the artefact with the script to be around 1500 B.C. "I have cautiously and conservatively put it between 2000 B.C. and 1500 B.C.," Mr. Mahadevan said. It was in the classical Indus script. He ruled out the possibility of the celt coming from North India because "the material of this stone is clearly of peninsular origin."

Harappa and Mohenjo-daro, where hundreds of seals with the Indus script were discovered, are in present-day Pakistan. Neolithic means New Stone Age and it is datable in India between 2000 B.C. and 1000 B.C.

According to Mr. Mahadevan, the first sign on the celt depicted a skeletal body with ribs. The figure is seated on his haunches, body bent and contracted, with lower limbs folded and knees drawn up. The second sign showed a jar. Hundreds of this pair have been found on seals and sealings at Harappa. Mr Mahadevan read the first sign as "muruku" and the second sign as "an." In other words, it is "Murukan." The earliest references in Old Tamil poetry portrayed him as a "wrathful killer," indicating his prowess as a war god and hunter. The third sign looked like a trident and the fourth like a crescent with a loop in the middle.

Mr. Mahadevan commented that the latest discovery was very strong evidence that the Neolithic people of Tamil Nadu and the Indus Valley people "shared the same language, which can only be Dravidian and not Indo-Aryan." He added that before this discovery, the southernmost occurrence of the Indus script was at Daimabad, Maharashtra on the Pravara River in the Godavari Valley.

F.S.Gandhi vandayar
7th May 2006, 01:04 AM
Thanks Mr. Mugil123123.

But why the scholars always try to establish that civilizational movement happened from North to South - that too without any proof-I don't know. In my various postings I insist on civilizational flow from south to North. Sinthu Valley script is nothing but tamil and It happened to flow from South to North.

This message further conforms
Kumari kandam concept.

f.s.gandhi

devapriya
9th May 2006, 11:13 AM
Friends,

Iravadam Mahadevan's total views are Todays Tamil tradition has not saved the Saraswathi River Civilisation, and Dravidian of today has nothing to do with Indus.

Tamil Vuirmei Letters are arranged in the same order as Sanskrit and adding all additional different letters in the end as shown by Caldwell.

Tamil Vowels Vyir ezuthu writing Practised till 19th Cen, and Tholkappiyar Ezuthuathikaram confirms that Sanskrit was the base of Brahmi Scripts and Tholkappiyar used Sanskrit writings.

Devapriya

arul_satish
9th May 2006, 02:30 PM
Thanks Sudhaam for your posting on my question.

Sudhaama
9th May 2006, 07:22 PM
Friends,

Iravadam Mahadevan's total views are Todays Tamil tradition has not saved the Saraswathi River Civilisation, and Dravidian of today has nothing to do with Indus.

Tamil Vuirmei Letters are arranged in the same order as Sanskrit and adding all additional different letters in the end as shown by Caldwell.

Tamil Vowels Vyir ezuthu writing Practised till 19th Cen, and Tholkappiyar Ezuthuathikaram confirms that Sanskrit was the base of Brahmi Scripts and Tholkappiyar used Sanskrit writings.

Devapriya

Tamil was only a Spoken-Language with no dialect of its own... for several centuries, as asserted by several Researchers including Caldwell and Harts.

The Origin of Tamil Letters was called "VATTEZHUTHTHU"... mostly in circular shapes... similar to Oriya...

...which has developed and improved by stage ofter stage, in course of time.

Saraswathi Mahal library at Thanjaavoor... is preserving the authentic Palm-leave records on this factor... in an appreciable manner, even now.

Whereas the origin of Sanskrit letters is the BRAHMI script...which is far different from VATTEZHUTHTHU... we can easily identify and discern.

In Sindu valley researches at Mohanjadaro and Harappa... what we have conscpicously discovered is...

...only Seals... mostly of such VATTEZHUTHTHU... or Fish of different species,... Circle with a Central dot ...Mudhu-makkalh thaazhi... etc...

....Based on which German and French Historians vastly differ with the British....

... and categorically justify that they are of Dravidian relevance only and exclusively.

Brahmi script came into existence after several centuries of Vattezhuththu....which has been found all over India including Northern parts....

...whereas we don't find Brahmi anywhere in South India.... which fact itself must be enough to prove that Tamil is earlier than Sanskrit.

Besides...the meaning of the word ...SANSKRIT means ...REFINED DEED. ...

...Sans= Refined / Reformed / Improved.... Deed or Outcome or Result.

So the question arises.... Reformed from what? Then there must have been something earlier, over which Sanskrit was improved upon or developed into.

What was that another Language?...Tamil?... Or Prakrit? Or Pali?

PRAKRIT means...Ancient-Deed... Pra= Pracheena = Ancient; Krit = Deed

Prakrit which was sparcely in vogue...Not so rich ......not possessing a strong Grammar...

.. unlike Sanskrit and Tamil... cannot be claimed to be of earlier existence prior to Tamil.

Pali... is not accepted as Prior one to Sanskrit... by one and all.

No doubt NEITHER TAMIL HAS EMANATED FROM SANSKRIT... NOR VICE-VERSA....

Both Sanskrit and Tamil are INDEPENDANT CLASSICAL LANGUAGES

...originated from Greater India, so called Bharath.

Since the modern world were mostly under the British rule, for several centuries...

....many unfounded false stories...SUITING TO THEIR STRATEGIC CONVENIENCE...

...had been forcibly thrust into the Tender brains of the major part of the Global Society....

...inculcating a NATIONAL-DIVIDE SPIRIT of Arya and Dravida...

...a POISONOUS FEED.. in all the Spheres including the Languistics too.!

... which DETRIMENTAL AND SUICIDAL TENDENCIES...killing the Social-Unity...

...some Indians are still CARRYING FORWARD AS TRUE !!!. PITIABLE.!!!

Undoubtedly ...TAMIL is the EARLIEST CLASSICAL-LANGUAGE OF THE GLOBAL MANKIND.!!!...

...Originated from Greater-India... so called Bharatha-Kandam.

thamizhvaanan
9th May 2006, 07:38 PM
Tamil was only a Spoken-Language with no dialect of its own... for several centuries, as asserted by several Researchers including Caldwell and Harts.

The Origin of Tamil Letters was called "VATTEZHUTHTHU"... mostly in circular shapes... similar to Oriya...

...which has developed and improved by stage ofter stage, in course of time.

Saraswathi Mahal library at Thanjaavoor... is preserving the authentic Palm-leave records on this factor... in an appreciable manner, even now.


I agree with u but some reservations. U said Tamil is spoken-only with no dialect! was that a mistake? u mean to say it didn have script right?

even with that i have some questions. If Tamil didn have a script how was its literature passed on from generations. Sanskrit sure survived without script for centuries. But was the case similar for Tamil too!

Or do u mean that Tamil used vattteluthu, but it was not a script of its own. If so, why do you say so?

Sudhaama
9th May 2006, 08:06 PM
Tamil was only a Spoken-Language with no dialect of its own... for several centuries, as asserted by several Researchers including Caldwell and Harts.

The Origin of Tamil Letters was called "VATTEZHUTHTHU"... mostly in circular shapes... similar to Oriya...

...which has developed and improved by stage ofter stage, in course of time.

Saraswathi Mahal library at Thanjaavoor... is preserving the authentic Palm-leave records on this factor... in an appreciable manner, even now.


I agree with u but some reservations. U said Tamil is spoken-only with no dialect! was that a mistake? u mean to say it didn have script right?

even with that i have some questions. If Tamil didn have a script how was its literature passed on from generations. Sanskrit sure survived without script for centuries. But was the case similar for Tamil too!

Or do u mean that Tamil used vattteluthu, but it was not a script of its own. If so, why do you say so?


Not only the case of Tamil...Invariably each and every Language in the world...

...has developed after its Spoken-form only... including Sanskrit, Latin, Greek and the like.

Even now there are some Languages having no SCRIPT of its own... but only borrowed from that of another Language..

For example,.. BADAGA written in Tamil Script ...TULU in Kannada ...PHILLIPPINO of Phillippines written in English Capital Letters now-a-days.

My point is only to compare the possible earliest introduction amongst both the..

...Brahmi ... the Origin of Sanskrit Letters..... and..

... Vattezhuththu ..the Origin of Tamil-script...in the Common Society.

...Origins of THE TWO GREAT CLASSICAL LANGUAGES OF INDIA... Tamil and Sanskrit.

Both... INDEPENDANT AND RICH ENOUGH ....on their own.

thamizhvaanan
10th May 2006, 11:17 AM
oh nice point, i wasnt contemplating on that though! I assume u made a mistake in saying Tamil didn have a dialect, I assume u meant script there. That was my point.

U did mention that sanskrit was christend as such because it was a refinement of an earlier language. A somewat similar reasoning was made to naming of tamil by pavanar. He said, Tamils didn bother to have a name for their language in the beginning, bcoz they werent aware of the existence of any other language. But as they came into contact with outsiders, they felt the necessity for a name, and named their country Tham + Il - thamil. the name of the country was later shared by the language and people also. This was his pt. of view on the origin of the name "Tamil".

Anyway, which of these works came first? panini's grammar text or tholkappiyam? I heard both are similar in their structure!

devapriya
10th May 2006, 04:38 PM
Dear Sudhamaji, and Friends,

As for as Indus is stilll Undechiphered, what Scholars say it is that thier way of Dechiphering rules out Strict DISCIPLINED Classical Sanskrit, but all attempts of Reading as Tamil and Proto Dravidian as failed similarly.

Vedic Sanscrit or Rigrit is dated to 5000-1000BCE, and Classical Sanskrit and Prakrits to 1000BCE.

Prakrit has left out additional Sha-Ja -Sa etc., specific to Sanskrit and to say Prakrit was refined to Sanskrit is meaningless.

Tamil vowel writing method was developed predominantly from Brahmi and Tholkappiyam's major source is Brahmi, is the Opinion of Scholars to who analysed.

Morethan 61 Stone Inscriptions of Brahmi have been found in Tamilnadu. Silapathikaram talks of KanEzuthu and Kolezuthu.

Vattaezuthu is one of the developments of Brahmi.

Sudahamaaji, you are right when you say Literature was passed on from Generation to Generation by Heart which is confirmed with Mainly Poetic Literature till 17th Century all over the World.

Oldest Manuscripts in Sarswathi Mahal dates only from 17th Cen.

Vedic Verses say clearly that there was writing, but many not be popular.

By Calling Classical Sanskrit as late we Ignore its basics.

Tamil Literarature starts only from BCE 200 and Tholkappiyam 100CE.
I accept both are Greatest Contirbutions by India to World.

Devapriya.