Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia

[indian224080]

Hello Friends,

I Have been much interested in obtaining Hindu connections in Arabia. Lets discuss Hinduism which existed in Arabia, Iran and other middle eastern countries. To begin with i shall post a link which corroborates the Presence of Hinduism in Arabia. Kindly put out ur thoughts which would help all of us to explore the greatness of our culture.

Regards
Indian224080

The entire article can be found at.
http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/aditichaturvedi/vpopia1.html


Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 1
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many centuries before prophet Muhammad and the destructive advent of Islam, Arabia or Arabistan was an extremely rich and glorious center of Vedic civilization. In this article, I will prove to you point by point that pre-Islamic Arabia was in fact a flourishing civilization which revered Vedic culture.

It is the prophet Muhammad and the followers of Islam who are fully responsible for the dissemination and destruction of this once glorious culture.

In learning about this most ancient heritage, let's begin with the word Arabistan itself. Arabistan is derived from the original Sanskrit term Arvasthan which means The Land of Horses. Since time immemorial proponents of the Vedic culture used to breed exceptional horses in this region. Thus eventually the land itself began to be called Arva (Horses) -Sthan (place). The people who lived in this land were called Semitic. Semitic comes from the Sanskrit word Smritic. Arabs followed the ancient Vedic Smritis such as Manu-Smriti as their revered religious guides and thus they were identified as Smritic which has been corrupted into Semitic.

At that time the Uttarapath (Northern Highway) was the international highway to the North of India. It was via Uttarapath that Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries drew their spiritual, educational and material sustenance from India. Besides, this Sea-links were formed with India at least 800 years before the advent of Islam. Basra was the ancient gateway to India because it was at this port that the Arab lands recieved Indian goods and visitors. At that time the spoken language was Sanskrit, which later dwindled into the local variation that we now call Arabic. The proof of this is that thousands of words that were derived from Sanskrit still survive in Arabic today. Here is a sampling of some:


Sanskrit Arabic English
Sagwan Saj Teakwood
Vish Besh Poison
Anusari Ansari Follower
Shishya Sheikh Disciple
Mrityu Mout Death
Pra-Ga-ambar Paigambar One from heaven
Maleen Malaun Dirty or soiled
Aapati Aafat Misfortune
Karpas Kaifas Cotton
Karpur Kafur Camphor
Pramukh Barmak Chief


Even various kinds of swords were referred to as Handuwani, Hindi, Saif-Ul-Hind, Muhannid and Hinduani. The Sanskrit Astronomical treatise Brahma-Sphuta-Siddhanta in Arabic translation is known as Sind-Hind, while another treatise Khanda-Khadyaka was called Arkand. Mathematics itself was called Hindisa .

The Arabs derived technical guidance in every branch of study such as astronomy, mathematics and physics from India. A noted scholar of history, W.H. Siddiqui notes:

"The Arab civilization grew up intensively
as well as extensively on the riches of
Indian trade and commerce. Nomadic Arab
tribes became partially settled communities
and some of them lived within walled towns practised agriculture and commerce, wroteon wood and stone, feared the gods and honored the kings."

Some people wrongly believe that Arabs used the word Hindu as a term of contemptuous abuse. Nothing could be further from the truth. The people of pre-Islamic Arabia held Hinduism in great esteem as evidenced from the fact that they would endearingly call their most attractive and favourite daughters as Hinda and Saifi Hindi. The fact that Arabs regarded India as their spiritual and cultural motherland long before the damaging influence of Islam is corroborated by the following poem which mentions each one of the four Vedas by name: (The English translation is in black)


"Aya muwarekal araj yushaiya noha
minar HIND-e
Wa aradakallaha
manyonaifail jikaratun"

"Oh the divine land of HIND (India)
(how) very blessed art thou!
Because thou art the chosen
of God blessed with knowledge"

"Wahalatijali Yatun ainana sahabi
akha-atun jikra Wahajayhi yonajjalur
-rasu minal HINDATUN "

"That celestial knowledge which like
four lighthouses shone in such
brilliance - through the (utterances of)
Indian sages in fourfold abundance."

"Yakuloonallaha ya ahal araf alameen
kullahum
Fattabe-u jikaratul VEDA bukkun
malam yonajjaylatun"

"God enjoins on all humans,
follow with hands down
The path the Vedas with his divine
precept lay down."

"Wahowa alamus SAMA wal YAJUR
minallahay Tanajeelan
Fa-e-noma ya akhigo mutiabay-an
Yobassheriyona jatun"

"Bursting with (Divine) knowledge
are SAM &YAJUR bestowed on creation,
Hence brothers respect and
follow the Vedas, guides to salvation"

"Wa-isa nain huma RIG ATHAR nasayhin
Ka-a-Khuwatun
Wa asant Ala-udan wabowa masha -e-ratun"

"Two others, the Rig and Athar teach us
fraternity, Sheltering under their
lustre dispels darkness till eternity"


This poem was written by Labi-Bin-E- Akhtab-Bin-E-Turfa who lived in Arabia around 1850 B.C. That was 2300 years before Mohammed!!! This verse can be found in Sair- Ul-Okul which is an anthology of ancient Arabic poetry. It was compiled in 1742 AD under order of the Turkish Sultan Salim.

That the Vedas were the religious scriptures to which the Arabs owed allegiance as early as 1800 B.C. proves not only the antiquity of the Vedas but also the existence of Indian rule over the entire region from the Indus to the Mediterranean, because it is a fact of history that the religion of the ruler is practised by his subjects.

Vedic culture was very much alive just before the birth of Muhammad. Again let's refer to the Sair-Ul-Okul. The following poem was written by Jirrham Bintoi who lived 165 years before the prophet Muhammed. It is in praise of India's great King Vikramaditya who had lived 500 years before Bintoi. (The English translation is in red).


"Itrasshaphai Santul
Bikramatul phehalameen Karimun
Bihillahaya Samiminela
Motakabbenaran Bihillaha
Yubee qaid min howa
Yaphakharu phajgal asari
nahans Osirim Bayjayholeen
Yaha sabdunya Kanateph natephi
bijihalin Atadari Bilala masaurateen
phakef Tasabahu. Kaunni eja majakaralhada
walhada Achimiman, burukan, Kad, Toluho
watastaru Bihillaha yakajibainana
baleykulle amarena
Phaheya jaunabil amaray Bikramatoon"

- (Sair-ul-Okul, Page 315)



"Fortunate are those who were born
during King Vikram's reign, he was
a noble generous, dutiful ruler devoted
to the welfare of his subjects. But at
that time, We Arabs oblivious of divinity
were lost in sensual pleasures. Plotting
& torture were rampant. The darkness of
ignorance had enveloped our country.
Like the lamb struggling for its life
in the cruel jaws of a wolf, we Arabs
were gripped by ignorance. The whole
country was enveloped in a darkness as
intense as on a New moon night. But the
present dawn & pleasant sunshine of
education is the result of the favor of
that noble king Vikram whose benevolence
did not lose sight of us foreigners as we
were. He spread his sacred culture amongst
us and sent scholars from his own land
whose brilliance shone like that of the sun
in our country. These scholars & preceptors
through whose benevolence we were once again
made aware of the presence of god, introduced
to his secret knowledge & put on the road to
truth, had come to our country to initiate us
in that culture & impart education."


Thus we can see that Vedic religion and culture were present in Pre-Islamic Arabia as early as 1850 B.C., and definitely present at the time of Mohammed's birth.

In his book Origines, Volumes 3 & 4", Sir W. Drummond adds:

"Tsabaism was the universal language of mankind when Abraham received his call, their doctrines were probably extended all over the civilized nations of Earth."

Tsabaism is merely the corruption of the word Shaivism which is Vedic religion. On page 439 of this book, Sir Drummond mentions some of gods of pre-Islamic Arabs, all of which were included in the 360 idols that were consecrated in the Kaba shrine before it was raided and destroyed by Muhammad and his followers. Here are some of the Vedic deities and their original Sanskrit names:


Arabic Sanskrit English
Al-Dsaizan Shani Saturn
Al-Ozi or Ozza Oorja Divine energy
Al-Sharak Shukra Venus
Auds Uddhav -
Bag Bhagwan God
Bajar Vajra Indra's thunderbolt
Kabar Kuber God of wealth
Dar Indra King of gods
Dua Shara Deveshwar Lord of the gods
Habal Bahubali Lord of strength
Madan Madan God of love
Manaph Manu First Man
Manat Somnath Lord Shiv
Obodes Bhoodev Earth
Razeah Rajesh King of kings
Saad Siddhi God of Luck
Sair Shree Goddess of wealth
Sakiah Shakrah Indra
Sawara Shiva-Eshwar God Shiva
Yauk Yaksha Divine being
Wad Budh Mercury


The Kaba temple which was misappropriated and captured by Muslims was originally an International Vedic Shrine. The ancient Vedic scripture Harihareswar Mahatmya mentions that Lord Vishnu's footprints are consecrated in Mecca. An important clue to this fact is that Muslims call this holy precint Haram which is a deviation of the Sanskrit term Hariyam, i.e. the precint of Lord Hari alias Lord Vishnu. The relevant stanza reads:


"Ekam Padam Gayayantu
MAKKAYAANTU Dwitiyakam
Tritiyam Sthapitam
Divyam Muktyai Shuklasya Sannidhau"


The allusion is to the Vamana incarnation of Lord Vishnu whose blessed feet were consecrated at three holy sites, namely Gaya, Mecca and Shukla Teertha. Worshipping such carved, holy foot impressions is a holy Vedic custom which convert Muslims are inadvertently perpetuating. But in doing this they delude themselves and mislead others that these foot-impressions which are on reverential display in several mosques and tombs around the world are in fact Muhammad's own. There are several snags in this argument. Firstly worshipping a foot -impression amounts to idolatry and should therefore be taboo for a true Muslim. Secondly Muhhamad disclaimed having performed any miracles. Therefore there can be no foot-impression of his on stone. Thirdly foot-impressions must always be in pairs like shoes. Yet in most of these shrines, it is usually a single footprint which suggests that Muhammad walked on only one foot. Another question that crops up is whether the foot-impression is of the same size and foot in all the shrines. The fact appears to be that when the Vedic Kaba shrine in Mecca was invaded by Muhammad, the pairs of foot impressions of Vedic deities there were plundered and later traded to the gullible and devout as Muhammad's own footprints for some favour, reward or personal gain by unscrupulous muslims. That is why they are single and not in pairs.



Figure 1.
The Shiv Ling at The Kaba. It was broken in seven
places and now is held together by a silver band.

The Black Stone which is the Shiv Emblem (also known as Sange Aswad which is a corrupted form of the Sanskrit word Sanghey Ashweta--meaning non-white stone) still survives in the Kaba as the central object of Islamic veneration. All other Vedic Idols could be found buried in the precincts or trampled underfoot in labyrinthine subterranean corridors if archaeological excavations are undertaken. The Black Stone has been badly mutilated, its carved base has disappeared and the stone itself is broken at seven places. It's parts are now held together by a silver band studded with silver nails. It lies half buried in the South Eastern portion of the Kaba Wall (Refer to Figure 1). The term Kaba itself is a corruption of the Sanskrit word Gabha (Garbha + Graha) which means Sanctum.

In addition, in the inscriptions from Hajja and its neighborhood was found a votive vessel dedicated by members of two tribes called Rama and Somia. Rama and Soma are Vedic deities, Rama is of the Solar dynasty and Soma is of the Lunar Dynasty. The moon god was called by various names in pre-Islamic times , one of them was Allah. Allah had 3 children, Al-Lat, Al-Uzza and Manat. Al-Lat and Al-Uzza were both feminine deities. Alla is another name for the Hindu goddess Durga. It is obvious that the goddess Al-Lat was Alla (Durga) and Al-Uzza was Oorja (energy or life force also known as Shakti). Manat was none other than Somnath which is another name for Lord Shiva. One significant point to note that Soma in Sanskrit means Moon and Nath means Lord. Thus the Kaba itself was dedicated to the Moon God Somnath alias Shiv and the word Somnath was corrupted to Manat. The famous Black Stone is none other than the ShivLing of Makkeshwar alias Mecca. Lord Shiva is always shown with a crescent Moon on his head and every Shiva temple is supposed to have a sacred water spring representing the Ganges. The Crescent Moon pinnacle of the Kaba and the Zamzam spring (actually Zamza from Ganga) are irrefutable testaments to the Vedic origins of the Kaba.

Figure 2 below depicts the image of Maqam-E-Ibrahim in the Kaba.



Figure 2.
Maqam-E-Ibrahim or more appropriately the pedestal of Brahma.

Muslims from all over the world pay homage to this shrine. This shrine is actually the pedestal of Brahma. Notice that the word, Ibrahim is actually a corruption of the word, Brahma. The octogonal grill which is a Vedic design, protects the holy footprints which represent the start of the creation nearly 2000 million years ago. Before it was captured by the Muslims it was an international shrine of the Vedic trinity.

In fact the names of the holiest of Muslim cities Mecca and Medina come from the Sanskrit words Makha-Medini which means the land of Fire-Worship. Even the most ancient names of these 2 cities were Mahcorava- which came from Mahadeva (Lord Shiva) and Yathrabn - which came from Yatra-Sthan (place of pilgrimage).

Islam came into being about 1372 years ago. It is well known that over 7500 years ago, at the time of the Mahabharat War, Kurus ruled the world. The scions of that family administered the different regions. Prophet Muhammed himself and his family were adherents of Vedic culture. The Encyclopedia Islamia admits as much when it says: "Muhammed's grandfather and uncles were hereditary priests of the Kaba temple which housed 360 idols!"

According to Arab traditions, Muhammad is a title. We do not know what name his parents had given him. We do however know that the central object of worship which survives at the Kaba today is a Shivling. That was allowed to remain there because that was the faceless family deity of Muhammad's family. One of the original names of Lord Shiv is Mahadev (The Great God) therefore it is entirely possible Muhammad came from Mahadev. This appears fairly certain because the Arabs still have a Mahadevi sect. Moreover the title Mehdi of a Muslim chief is also a malpronounciation of the term Mahadeva. According to Sanskrit etymology the term Muhammad implies 'a person of great inspiration' - 'Mahan Madah yasya assau Muhammadah' In a hostile sense it also implies 'a person of a proud and haughty temperament'.

The Qurayshi tribe into which Mohammed was born was particularly devoted to Allah and and the three children of the Moon God. Therefore when Muhammad decided to create his own Divine religion, he took innumerable aspects of the daily Vedic culture that surrounded him and corrupted them to suit his needs. It was with the advent of the Prophet and Islam that the death-knell of the glorious Arab culture was sounded. With Islam came the flood of destruction, murder, plunder and crime that destroyed the great Vedic heritage of Arabs. The Prophet merely took some existing artefacts and terms and corrupted them so profoundly that no one would be able to discover their actual origins.

In my next article, I will elaborate further on the Vedic Heritage of Arabia.

Note: Works of P.N. Oak and Robert A. Morey have been used to compose this article.

[indian224080]

The Second Part of the article can be found at

Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia Part-2

http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/aditichaturvedi/vpopia2.html

[indian224080]

Hindu Numerals
--------------------------------------------------------
Hindu system is a pure place value system, that is why you need a zero. Only the Hindus within the context of Indo-European civilisations have consistently used a zero.
Our decimal system is descendent from this system.


The earliest number symbols in India
In 3000BC the Hindus culture flourished and large numbers were used (inscriptions).
From the middle of 2000BC Indo-European tribes were making their way from the N.W. towards India. They introduced Sanskrit - earliest knowledge of maths from this time.

In Sanskrit there are number words for 1-9, 10, 100 and further powers of 10 - up to 10 - definitely a decimal system.


Brahmi Numerals
Brahmi inscriptions have been found all over the subcontinent of India - date from C3BC.
UNITS (digits) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
TENS (enciphering) 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90
HUNDREDS (place value 100 2x100 3x100 ......
THOUSANDS notation) 1000 2x1000 3x1000 ......



The existence of special symbols for the figures 1 - 9 was a typical and important characteristic of Hindu arithmetic and provided the prerequisite for the rise of the decimal place - value system.

Tens were written with individual symbols - obstacle on the way towards a consistent place value system.

From 100 onwards numbers were represented according to another principle - 2 new symbols 100 and 1000 - named place value system.


Extending Hindu system towards a place value system
What was favourable to the development of a decimal place value system in India?

Hindu counting system was purely decimal and distinct symbols for the numbers 1 - 9 existed already.
A notation for high powers of ten existed already.

Hindus used counting boards - had tens units columns.

A lot of astronomical activity at this time - had to use large numbers. They knew about Babylonian place value system - knew about greek astronomy and its notation and may have encountered the small circle indicating a zero.


The later place - Value System
The most important as well as the most widely used place - value symbols are those belonging to the Nagari script numerals 1 - 9, very similar to the Brahmi numerals.
Nagari numerals are very similar to our own.

In books about AD570 they were writing

241960,

- digits arranged in normal way zero is used, place value notation is used for the numerator and denominator of the fraction.

This system quickly came into use - probably earliest symbol for zero was a dot and not a small circle.


Hindu Numerals among the Arabs
Knowledge of the Hindu decimal system was early in reaching the West (AD662).
On its way to the West the Hindu method of writing numerals soon became known to the Arabs who had established a world empire from the 7th Century. Many mathematical books from the Greeks and Hindus were translated in Baghdad and travelled the West.

The Arabs played an essential part in the dissemination of the numeral system - no number system of their own.

Al-Khouarizmi was the first Arab to explain the Hindu system of numerals. He wrote an "Algebra" and "Arithmetic" about AD820 - These have both come down to use via Latin translations.

Al-Khouarizmi's Arithmetic is the first Arabic work in which the decimal place value system and the computing operations based on it are explained. He explained in great detail how the value of the numeral changes when it is put in another place. He was also aware of zero.

In C8 a specific Arabic alphabetical style of writing numbers emerged based on the Greek. At about the same time a place value system appeared in which the numbers were represented by the so called East Arabic numerals with a special symbol for zero. They were a modification of the Brahmi numerals - some countries use them (Egypt).

The so called West Arabic numerals are contemporary with the East Arabic numerals and likewise stem from Hindu figures and are forerunners of our Western figures.

In the West Arabic numerals one dot indicates tens, 2 dots hundreds so it is not a complete place value system.


3 6 8 = 368 and 3 . 8 = 308


Later the symbol for zero (0) was introduced from the East.
As a consequence of trade between the Orient and Moorish Spain the Hindu figures came to North Africa. The merchants didn't understand the place value system but later the pure place value system from East Arabia gained acceptance. All that was needed then was for the zero to join the other 9 figures and dots to disappear.

[ramraghav]

This is probably not entirely relevant here..............but for want of a better thread, I'll post it here anyway.

http://www.samachar.com/showurl.htm?rurl=http://newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE420051226025042&Page=4&Title=Features+%2D+People+%26+Lifestyle&Topic=0&?headline=NRI~voted~

And here's the BBC link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/history/history5.shtml

[tfmlover]

http://www.salagram.net/VWHMid-East.html

[indian224080]

http://www.salagram.net/VWHMid-East.html

Excellent Link tfmlover. Indian Govt. though has lots of evidences is hesistant to send a Archeological team or even request to the Arabian Govt. Many of our people are not that educated on the glorious past of Hinduism. Its high time we educate the people with such evidences.

Thanks and Please keep contributing .
Regards
indian224080

[ramraghav]

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/was_the_taj_mahal_a_vedic_temple.htm

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/question_of_the_taj_mahal.htm

[SRS]

Here is a link to Zoroastrian texts:

http://www.avesta.org/avesta.html

Zoroastrianism and Vedic Hinduism share much in common. Really amazing when you think about it. I will write more on this when time permits.

[ramraghav]

The second part of this pdf is relevant here, the first part probably in the Mahabharata thread.

http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/MahabharataII.pdf

[bis_mala]

The French Researcher Abbe Dubois ( a familiar person to Max Muller)) in his Hindu Religion, Customs and Practices seem to say that some important features of Hinduism of the North were from Middle East but not so categorically (itemised manner) as above. He says that the word Brahma is from Abraham (Arabic: Ibrahim) (In Abraham, remove prefix A- and compare the rest of the word ). Further says Manu is corruption of the word Noah. Accounts of the Great Deluge are compared. The Jews may have got Brahman from Egypt as Gilbert Slater traces Brahma's origin to that country. Brahman existed in pre - Vedic Age.

However Siva is from South India and in the beginning of the Vedic Age, he was not accepted as a god. A subsequent compromise landed him as the last in the pantheon or trinity. Dubois says the Hindu Trinity developed after the doctrine of Blessed Trinity in Catholicism. and was a subsequent event in Hinduism.

But the mode of worship in Pre-Islamic Arabia was somewhat identical to that of India according to most historians I have read.

[stranger]

Further says Manu is corruption of the word Noah.

I dont understand what say you! :?

Could you say that in English, please ? :)

[ramraghav]

a rather comprehensive take on Ayodhya
http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/books/acat/index.htm
http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/books/acat/ch11.htm
http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/books/finale/index.html

[bis_mala]

Further says Manu is corruption of the word Noah.

I dont understand what say you! :?

Could you say that in English, please ? :)

Sorry, I shortened it too much and sacrificed clarity.

I will reconstruct in proper sentence as follows:

"Abbe Dubois further said in his book that the word "Noah" had corrupted and changed to "Manu".

Noah > nuu > (ma)nuu.

So he hinted that the word Manu was somewhat forged by adding "ma" which is maha = great. So it means: the great Noah.

ma (Tamil) > maha (Skrt), ma is the Tamil form.

[stranger]

Thanks for the bit, b_m :)

Has he shown any evidences that suggest characters "Abraham/Ibrahim" existed in the "Hebrew literature or epics" were "older" than that of the character "BrahmA" existed in the Sanskrit literature of Hindus :?:

[ramraghav]

The tale of Manu, of the great flood (as against Manu, the author of the Smriti, an entirely different person), existed prior to the composition of the Rig Veda (or atleast part of it). This can be inferred from the fact that references to this Manu (of the flood) are found in the Rig Veda. Just to quote a few verses, you may want to look up Rig Veda 1.14.11, 1.31.17, 1.36.10.......(according to Ralph Griffith, Hymns of the Rig Veda, Vol 1, there are more than 80 seperate references to Manu in the Rig Veda).

Besides these numerous references in the Rig Veda, Manu is also referred to in the Brahmanas, the Puranas and the Upanishads (especially in the Mahabharata).

The Bhagavata Purana claims that this Manu (of the flood) was actually a Dravidian (South Indian) king of the name Satyavrata, who was adviced and guided by the Matsya incarnation of Vishnu to build a boat and transport himself and the Seven Sages to the northen mountains.

The Bhagavata Purana story regarding Manu and the flood is detailed in Canto 8. The particular reference to Manu as a Dravidian king is in 8.24.13 http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto8/chapter24.html
Ram

[bis_mala]

Thanks for the bit, b_m :)

Has he shown any evidences that suggest characters "Abraham/Ibrahim" existed in the "Hebrew literature or epics" were "older" than that of the character "BrahmA" existed in the Sanskrit literature of Hindus :?:

From the way it proceeded, Dubois presented that piece as somewhat conclusive and my assumption is that he was of the mind that the Torah was older than the Vedas. I was surprised when I read it.

I did not see any character comparison. You are welcome.

Ramraghav wrote:



The Bhagavata Purana claims that this Manu (of the flood) was actually a Dravidian (South Indian) king of the name Satyavrata, who was adviced and guided by the Matsya incarnation of Vishnu to build a boat and transport himself and the Seven Sages to the northen mountains.

The Bhagavata Purana story regarding Manu and the flood is detailed in Canto 8. The particular reference to Manu as a Dravidian king is in 8.24.13

I was getting ready to bring in linguistic evidence to show that the word Manu is a Dravidian /Tamil word. Also, that in his book there may have been insertions later because of certain contradictions which were also adverted to by one of our hubbers in the now-removed Manu Smirithi thread. It awaits completion.

I believe that Manu was from South. Thanks to Ramraghav for his illuminating post.

The Arabs believed that Nabi Adam descended in Tamil Nadu. Please see my post under thread Kumari Kandam. It may have some relevance.

I wrote:

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:21 pm Post subject: the common source

From an account given by naavalar aRinjar abduR Rahim, in his introduction to Muslim Poets, (Universal Publications), the Tamil Land was the first place the first man (Adam according to MiddleEastern tradition) stepped his foot on when he descended from heaven .................................................. ...etc.................etc.....................and also have been found in Arabic (see Swami Njanaprakasam's works) , it is not suprising to find words common to Arabic and Northern because all those words came from the common source Tamil.

[Sandeep]

--deleted--

[bis_mala]

Great posts Bis_mala, ramraghav. The world seems to be very small indeed.

Two queries though

//However Siva is from South India //

Wasn't the earliest form of Siva worshiped in Indus valley civilization which was a dravidian civilization.

//I believe that Manu was from South//
Do you mean he was Dravidian or that he was from Southern part of India.

If the loss of Kumari Kandam is accepted, then it should have spread from there to the North (Indus Valley). If it is still doubted, then of course, the Indus Valley Civilisation may be taken as the earliest evidence until further evidence is unearthed.

Manu from the South, I mean the Dravidian/Tamil South.

[Uppuma]

Friends,

According to the founder of Thesophical Society,
the Indian Brahmin who went to Israel, left God's way i.e., Brahma's way and hence became A-brah am.

The name Adam- cames from Sanskrit Adi, one, and Eden from Aham are the findings of many Christian Indologist.
uppuma.

[bis_mala]

Friends,

According to the founder of Thesophical Society,
the Indian Brahmin who went to Israel, left God's way i.e., Brahma's way and hence became A-brah am.

The name Adam- cames from Sanskrit Adi, one, and Eden from Aham are the findings of many Christian Indologist.
uppuma.

For ideological reason, philosophers such as Voltaire in 18c ACE showed much interest in replacing Biblical tradition with a more distant Oriental source for European culture. Sanskrit was closer to the Proto-Indo-European and hence, European scholars were happy to choose India over China as the homeland of earliest recorded evidence for their culture. The linguistic theories flourished and one of the reasons was that India was under European domination for quite some time.(happiness over cultural affinity).

The Biblical tradition states that men started to build a tower to heaven, God became angry and punished them by making them speak different tongues so that they could not understand each other and could not conspire anymore. All languages started from there; if the story is true and all must be of equal age!! In the 18c not many scholars in Europe wanted to pay much attention to what the Bible had to say about the origin of world languages.

Anyway, there are still many scholars who think that Sanskrit is a foreign language that came into the sub-continent. That also conveniently explains why we can find in Skrt so many words which have equivalents in Indo-European.

According to current linguistics, aadhi does not have equivalent in Indo-European. It has a homonym in Tamil with identical meaning. The word is "aakuthal" = coming in existence, becoming. Root is "aa" or "aaku" and thi is a suffix which can be found in many other words. Hebrew sources say that "adam" came from their word meaning dust or mud, meaning God created man from dust or mud!!

I have written here and in other threads about Brahma and how the word derived. Scholars differ. Where there are too many disagreements, it is usual for linguists to conclude that the word is of unknown origin. Brahma is pre-Vedic and Brahmin priestly order is post-Vedic. Cannot reconcile.

As I pointed out, pre-Islamic tradition of Arabia stated that Adam descended in TN.
Adam might well be a word from Kumari Kandam, Lanka or TN.

[Lambretta]

Wasn't the earliest form of Siva worshiped in Indus valley civilization
Tats wat I rem. reading in my history text bk at school......He was then known as Pashupati.....?

[ramraghav]

[tscii:64d5fca5e8]This is a very very brief summary of the vast plethora of material available on this subject. I am only providing references for those claims that can not be easily verified by a google search. If you want any reference in particular, please do ask me.

It certainly seems that Siva was known and worshipped during the Harappa-Mohenjodaro phase of the Indus-Saraswati civilization. This is supported by archealogical evidence (as we all read in the textbooks). However, the possibility has now been raised that Siva was known well before this phase and probably even before the earliest known phases (at Mehrgarh and Nausharo) of the I-S civi. These early stratiagraphical layers go well into 9500 yrs before present i.e. roughly 7500 BCE.

That Siva was worshipped before the H-M phase of the I-S (for which clinching archealogical evidence is available), has been inferred mainly from literary evidence. Ofcourse this is open to (and hotly is being the subject of) debate.

The literary evidence centers on the fact that Siva is featured prominently in the Rig Veda, implying that acknowledgement of Siva is atleast as old as the Rig Veda. The question then becomes: how old is the Rig Veda?

It is difficult to acertain exactly how old it is, but internal Rig Vedic evidence suggests that atleast a part of it was composed much before the H-M phase of the I-S. This evidence centers on the geography of the lands desribed in the Rig, which does not correspond to the H-M region (this served as the strongest support for the now thouroughly discredited AIT). It turns out that this geography (particularly relating to the river Saraswati) relates closely to the earlier sites in the I-S civ (such as Mehrgarh and Nausharo) but not the newer ones (like Harappa, Mohenjodaro and Dholavira).

This geographical evidence also tallies with literary evidence in the Puranas and the Upanishads. Of late attempts have been made (by Subash Kak and others) to date the Mahabharata. If we were to accept their conclusions regarding this, and accept 3137 BCE as the date of the war, and accept the theory that Vyasa was the author of the Mahabharata and the arranger of the Vedas, it follows that the Vedas (atleast partly) predate the Mahabharata. This supposition also makes sense in the light of ¿¡«ø §Å¾ ¦¿È¢ as mentioned in the Purananooru poem (its in the Tamil Lit thread, in case u r interested).

However, there are references in the Rig Veda which can not be satisfactorily explained by placing it in the Mehrgarh phase (particularly regarding the horse and the ocean). Then, there are also the curious (but persistent) references to Manu, the Seven Sages and the great flood. These can be explained by according a place of origin for the Vedas different from the I-S region.

As I stated earlier, the Bhagavata Purana claims that Manu was a Dravidian who, accompanied by the 7 sages, sailed from the south to the northern mountains. These 7 sages were supposed to have held the knowledge of the Vedas, and were expected to transmit the same to future generations of humans nurtured in the northern areas (10.130.6-7). Manu's actual name was supposedly Satyavrata (which, translated roughly means 'Keeper of Truth' or 'Keeper of Justice' if I am not wrong. The phrase 'Manu, keeper of justice'........does it ring any bells?). It is interesting to note that the Mahabharata talks of this Manu as having practiced intense penance for 10000 yrs! (Mahabharata 3.186) The Mahabharata (or the Satpatha Brahmana (1.217), where the Manu stories are told), does not verify the claim that Manu was a Dravidian king. On the other hand, it does not make any claim to the contrary either.

We can now claim, with significant riders, that
1. The Vedas (atleast in part) predate the Mahabharata war. The Mahabharata war occured in 3137 BCE.
2. The Rig Veda (atleast in part) can be placed in the Mehrgarh phase of the I-S civilization.
3. The Rig Veda (atleast in part) was carried and transmitted by the 7 sages from southern to northern lands (i.e. the earlier sites of the I-S civ). This implies that this part of the Rig Veda (or whatever it was known as at that time) must have been older than the earliest settlements in the I-S.

As I started off saying, this is a very simplified (and rather simplistic) summary of an intellectual debate of enormous scope and consequence. And yes, this whole analysis does not directly address the question of exactly how old the Rig Veda is, for it has led to this further question: how old is the civilization in south India?

Ram[/tscii:64d5fca5e8]

[Idiappam]

A few questions for Mr Ramraghav.

The literary evidence centers on the fact that Siva is featured prominently in the Rig Veda, implying that acknowledgement of Siva is atleast as old as the Rig Veda. The question then becomes: how old is the Rig Veda?
How do you say that "Siva is featured prominently in the Rig Veda" when He did not exist at all in the Rig?


It is difficult to acertain exactly how old it is, but internal Rig Vedic evidence suggests that atleast a part of it was composed much before the H-M phase of the I-S. This evidence centers on the geography of the lands desribed in the Rig, which does not correspond to the H-M region (this served as the strongest support for the now thouroughly discredited AIT). It turns out that this geography (particularly relating to the river Saraswati) relates closely to the earlier sites in the I-S civ (such as Mehrgarh and Nausharo) but not the newer ones (like Harappa, Mohenjodaro and Dholavira).
How was the geography extracted from a book mainly containing 'chants'. Any ideas on which lines of the Rig matched the geography of the 'earlier' Mehrgarh etc?


Of late attempts have been made (by Subash Kak and others) to date the Mahabharata. If we were to accept their conclusions regarding this, and accept 3137 BCE as the date of the war, and accept the theory that Vyasa was the author of the Mahabharata and the arranger of the Vedas, it follows that the Vedas (atleast partly) predate the Mahabharata.
What has the date of the war incident got to with the date it was narrated and written down? - That you can safely rely on the date of the incident and ignore the date of its writing and pin-point the date of another writing the Rig-Veda?


This supposition also makes sense in the light of ¿¡«ø §Å¾ ¦¿È¢ as mentioned in the Purananooru poem (its in the Tamil Lit thread, in case u r interested).
Some songs of the puranaanooru were written after the Vedic period... even during the Bakti period.. Tamils new what existed around them - like the vedas.


We can now claim, with significant riders, that
1. The Vedas (atleast in part) predate the Mahabharata war. The Mahabharata war occured in 3137 BCE.
No! The war occured in 3137 perhaps... But when was that story narrated by 'Vyasa'?


2. The Rig Veda (atleast in part) can be placed in the Mehrgarh phase of the I-S civilization.
Any lines, as 'internal evidences', from the Rig?


3. The Rig Veda (atleast in part) was carried and transmitted by the 7 sages from southern to northern lands (i.e. the earlier sites of the I-S civ). This implies that this part of the Rig Veda (or whatever it was known as at that time) must have been older than the earliest settlements in the I-S.
I don't see the relationship there! 7 sages comming down and the I-S settlement and the Date of the Rig!


And yes, this whole analysis does not directly address the question of exactly how old the Rig Veda is,

Agreed! It does not, at all address the date of the Rig!


for it has led to this further question: how old is the civilization in south India?
Anyway never mind... But how does this question arise?[/tscii:30b80d6196]

[bis_mala]

//This evidence centers on the geography of the lands described in the Rig, which does not correspond to the H-M region (this served as the strongest support for the now thoroughly discredited AIT).//

described or referred/mentioned?
Surprising that descriptions in Tamil Lit about Kumari Kandam are rejected by some of our hubbers as "legendary" but descriptions in another book Rig Veda (which was orally recited for a long time without being written down making it amenable to interference by ideologists of those times ) are not "legendary".

/
/This evidence centers on the geography of the lands//

Does this evidence include any other outside that centre? In other words, what other peripheral matters are there strengthening the evidence, besides the geography?


//thoroughly discredited AIT?//

It is disputed not thoroughly discredited. Just for comparison, any archeological evidence found for the Mahabharata War? Muslim invasions? Alexander's invasion?
No evidence does not mean that the incident did not take place. There are so many cases reported each day with no one being arrested or prosecuted because the police cannot find evidence to prosecute. Out of 100 cases prosecuted, more than 70 % are acquittals. All these do not mean that the underlying incidents did not take place. Insufficient evidence does not mean discredited.


prominently featured

RIG VEDA is anti-Siva worship.

The pre-Islamic mode of worship in Arabia may have certain identical features with that of ancient India. but it can hardly be described as Vedic. To say so, one has to prove that all the gods being worshipped or worshipped in the past in India are entirely Vedic. Historians aver to the contrary.

[mahadevan]

Since you guys claimed to be buying what science says the following link is a real research done in India. Draw your own conclusions
http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/hpg/cesmg/peopling.html

[bis_mala]

History as projected by Hindutva ideologues, which is being introduced to children through textbooks and is being thrust upon research institutes, precludes an open discussion of evidence and interpretation. Nor does it bear any trace of the new methods of historical analyses now being used in centres of historical research. Such history is dismissed by the Hindutva ideologues as Western, imperialist, Marxist, or whatever, but they are themselves unaware of what these labels mean or the nature of these readings. There is no recognition of the technical training required of historians and archaeologists or of the foundations of social science essential to historical explanation.

Romilla Thapar (Yr 2000)

The Hindutva ideologues and pro-vedics are similar.

There have been idol worship in not only in Arabia but also in Rome, Greece and Egypt. There was idol worship in Israel too in pre-Moses days. It is doubted that there was such worship during Sangam period except "nadukal". It is too sweepig to say that all these forms of idol worhip were Vedic. How many such idols are mentioned and described in the vedas??

[ramraghav]

A few questions for Mr Ramraghav.

The literary evidence centers on the fact that Siva is featured prominently in the Rig Veda, implying that acknowledgement of Siva is atleast as old as the Rig Veda. The question then becomes: how old is the Rig Veda?
How do you say that "Siva is featured prominently in the Rig Veda" when He did not exist at all in the Rig?
Your question has led me on an interesting tangent, hope its ok if I take some time to reply to this one!



It is difficult to acertain exactly how old it is, but internal Rig Vedic evidence suggests that atleast a part of it was composed much before the H-M phase of the I-S. This evidence centers on the geography of the lands desribed in the Rig, which does not correspond to the H-M region (this served as the strongest support for the now thouroughly discredited AIT). It turns out that this geography (particularly relating to the river Saraswati) relates closely to the earlier sites in the I-S civ (such as Mehrgarh and Nausharo) but not the newer ones (like Harappa, Mohenjodaro and Dholavira).
How was the geography extracted from a book mainly containing 'chants'. Any ideas on which lines of the Rig matched the geography of the 'earlier' Mehrgarh etc?
A few references to the Saraswati river can be found in Rig Veda 2.41.16; 6.61.1-13; 1.3.12. Reference to the Saraswati as having flowed upto the ocean is in 7.95.1-2.
You must be aware that satellite imaging has shown that there existed a major river once flowing through the area (SM Ramasamy, Remote Sensing in Geomorphology and B Ghose, Lost Courses of the Saraswati River in the Great Indian Desert, New Evidence from Landsat Imagery). Along the course of this river a number of 'pre-Harappan' settlements have been found i.e. prior to mid-third millenium BCE (approx 2500 BCE). The Saraswati (or whatever name is to be assigned to this discovered river) started drying out by the end of the third mill. BCE (i.e. close to 3000 BCE) and had ceased to flow by the early second mill. You may want to refer to the above quoted works of Ramasamy and Ghose.



Of late attempts have been made (by Subash Kak and others) to date the Mahabharata. If we were to accept their conclusions regarding this, and accept 3137 BCE as the date of the war, and accept the theory that Vyasa was the author of the Mahabharata and the arranger of the Vedas, it follows that the Vedas (atleast partly) predate the Mahabharata.
What has the date of the war incident got to with the date it was narrated and written down? - That you can safely rely on the date of the incident and ignore the date of its writing and pin-point the date of another writing the Rig-Veda?

You are correct. It is difficult to conclusively establish that the Mahabharata was written as a narration of contemporaneous events. This is particularly so since the Mahabharata is essentially a religious text. However, irrespective of this, as I said, if we were to assume
1. Vyasa was the author of the Mahabharata
2. Vyasa was the arranger of the Vedas
it then follows that, for certain, the Vedas predate the Mahabharata (the text, not necessarily the war). As for the exact date of the Mahabharata war (3137 BCE), I only quoted that out of the analysis by Subhash Kak www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/MahabharataII.pdf. If the analysis is wrong, the date probably will not stand scrutiny.



This supposition also makes sense in the light of ¿¡«ø §Å¾ ¦¿È¢ as mentioned in the Purananooru poem (its in the Tamil Lit thread, in case u r interested).
Some songs of the puranaanooru were written after the Vedic period... even during the Bakti period.. Tamils new what existed around them - like the vedas.
You are indeed right. However, if you recollect our discussion on the Puranooru poem, you will remember that this poem was written as a narration of contemporaneous events, meaning that
1. The war happened during the lifetime of the poet and the king
2. The poet (and most likely the public too) was aware of the existence of the 4 Vedas.
Now, this would imply that the Vedas (in part, as always) predate the war, wouldnt it?



We can now claim, with significant riders, that
1. The Vedas (atleast in part) predate the Mahabharata war. The Mahabharata war occured in 3137 BCE.
No! The war occured in 3137 perhaps... But when was that story narrated by 'Vyasa'?
Answered above



2. The Rig Veda (atleast in part) can be placed in the Mehrgarh phase of the I-S civilization.
Any lines, as 'internal evidences', from the Rig?
The geographical evidence I was talking about.



3. The Rig Veda (atleast in part) was carried and transmitted by the 7 sages from southern to northern lands (i.e. the earlier sites of the I-S civ). This implies that this part of the Rig Veda (or whatever it was known as at that time) must have been older than the earliest settlements in the I-S.
I don't see the relationship there! 7 sages comming down and the I-S settlement and the Date of the Rig!


And yes, this whole analysis does not directly address the question of exactly how old the Rig Veda is,

Agreed! It does not, at all address the date of the Rig!


for it has led to this further question: how old is the civilization in south India?
Anyway never mind... But how does this question arise?[/tscii:3af0064132]
Sorry, my fault. I should have elaborated on this yesterday itself, but allow me to do so atleast now.

This short analysis shall address the following:
1. Where does Manu stand wrt the Vedas i.e. what is his role in it?
2. Who were the seven sages and what was their role?

Manu was held in high esteem by the authors of the Vedas. This can be seen by references such as RV 1.36.10, 1.36.19, 1.45.1, 1.112.16, 1.112.18, 1.114.2, 1.128.1, 1.128.2. Now, what Manu did to earn this respect is not very clear from the RV, for though the RV refers to Manu as 'Father Manu', 'Manu's progeny', 'Hero Manu' etc, it does not provide an explicit account what he actually achieved to earn these titles. This explanation is provided rather elaborately in the Bhagavata Purana (8.24), the Sathpatha Brahmana (2.187) and the Mahabharata (3.186). Here, Manu is claimed to have been warned about an impending flood by a fish, who instructs him to stay prepared for travel with the 7 sages, and finally guides them through the flood to the northern mountains where they make landfall. While RV shows great respect for Manu, and holds him as a father-figure and the progenitor of their peoples, the BP and SB go further and state that Manu was responsible for the propagation of their species. As for where exactly Manu's ship made landfall, the Arthava Veda offers some clue in 19.39.8 when it says that the ship descended at the summit of the Himalayas where immortality lies. This claim of making landfall at the Himalayas is reiterated in the Mahabharata 3.186

As for the 7 sages, they too were held in very high esteem and were considered to be forerunners of later sages. They were also supposed to have brought with them ancient knowledge and propagated the same to the current inhabitants of the lands. You may want to see RV 4.42.8, 10.82.2, 10.109.4, 10.130.6-7. And, they were supposed to have negotiated the flood alongwith Manu, and have made landfall in the northern mountains.

To summarize:
1. Manu was held in high esteem and considered to the 'Father' of these people.
2. The 7 sages were also held in high esteem and were considered to have brought with them ancient knowledge (probably an earlier form of the Vedas or whatever they were called).
3. The people of the I-S were descendants of migrants to that place.
4. This migration happened during the period of a great flood.
5. Since the Himalayas (where they made landfall) was considered as being to the north, the place of origin of the journey must have been further south.
6. The people of this place in the south already possesed a high civilization (for the simple enough reason that they had some literary knowledge), and a few of them migrated north.
7. Manu was supposed to have been a Dravidian king before the migration (BP 8.24.13).
8. The date of this migration, as estimated from studies by Ramasamy and Ghose on the the flow of the Saraswati, and by Graham Hancock on the occurrance of the flood, correlates well with the earliest habitational layers at Mehrgarh (around 10000-9000 yrs ago).




This evidence centers on the geography of the lands described in the Rig, which does not correspond to the H-M region (this served as the strongest support for the now thoroughly discredited AIT).
described or referred/mentioned?
Surprising that descriptions in Tamil Lit about Kumari Kandam are rejected by some of our hubbers as "legendary" but descriptions in another book Rig Veda (which was orally recited for a long time without being written down making it amenable to interference by ideologists of those times ) are not "legendary".
Yes, 'referred' would have been a better word.



This evidence centers on the geography of the lands
Does this evidence include any other outside that centre? In other words, what other peripheral matters are there strengthening the evidence, besides the geography?
Religious-Literary, which I would not bank upon simply because they are subject to faith-based interpretations. There are also references to celestial events, but I am not aware of the details.



thoroughly discredited AIT?
It is disputed not thoroughly discredited. Just for comparison, any archeological evidence found for the Mahabharata War? Muslim invasions? Alexander's invasion?
No evidence does not mean that the incident did not take place. There are so many cases reported each day with no one being arrested or prosecuted because the police cannot find evidence to prosecute. Out of 100 cases prosecuted, more than 70 % are acquittals. All these do not mean that the underlying incidents did not take place. Insufficient evidence does not mean discredited.
There is growing overwhelming evidence suggesting that the AIT was seriously flawed. You may want to read Update on the Aryan Invasion Debate by Koenraad Elst, The Myth of Aryan Invasion of India by David Frawley, In Search of the Cradle of Civilization by Feurstein, Kak and Frawley, and Underworld: The Mysterious Origins of Civilization by Graham Hancock. Even so, you are right, and 'thouroughly discredited' is probably an inappropriately strong phrase to have been used.


Rig Veda is anti-Shiva worship
Why do you say that?

Ram

[Uppuma]

Friends,

I was in a hurry, and Bible Old Testament- first five books called Torah was now dated to 400-250BCE, with few ORAL Traditions dated to 8th Cen. BCE, now confusing this with Rig of 2000BCE is meaningless.
Quiet a lot of OT main stories taken from Avestha, i.e from Vedic source.
MANY OF Jesus birth stories have similarities with Lord.KRISHNA; and Germans in early 19th Cen, tried to date Krisna Legends to being taken from Gospels; but when evidences of earlier Krishna came in Germans abandoned it, but local missionaries and Thani-Tamil movement leaders talk of them Denigrating Indian Values.
Uppuma.

[bis_mala]

Ramraghav wrote:



bis_mala wrote:
Rig Veda is anti-Shiva worship

Why do you say that?



http://www.rudrakshanepal.com/history.php says that Siva worship is 125,000 years old!! (= from time immemorial)
He is a god of the vedic age. (He existed then). (Note: not of the vedas but of the vedic age)

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab75:
The gods of the Aryans: from 1500 BC : And Shiva (under the name of Rudra) had a small and sinister part, prowling in the mountains, shooting humans and animals with his arrows, and both causing and curing diseases.

Now Rudra and Siva were identified as one deity subsequently when Saivism really spread to North India.

It is clear that Siva worship progressed and he reached his highest level in North India probably by Mahabharata age.

According to Gilbert Slater, Rig Veda condemned Linga worship which is an integral part of the Saivam. He says that Siva and Vishnu pre-existed Rig Veda.
Rig Veda assigned to him a lower status as said above (shooting...causing disease). Even later when he rose in power, he was relegated to a position performing destruction (because he is non-Aryan God).

See also "pazan-thamizk koLkaiyE saivasamayam" & "thamizar matham" by Maraimalai Adigal and the references given by him in his books need to be refuted if a contrary view is to be taken.

I am going through other ref. materials in the library too but I would not be able to give you more references for the time being.

[Uppuma]

Friends,

Siva - the very name doesnot appear any of the texts of Sangam lit, or Tholkappiyam.

Manimekhalai has Saivavathi and the man uses more Vedic taughts and Tholkappiyam and Sangam refers Vedas at many places.

Paripadal has even the name of one of the Vedas.

Muruga's One face is for Vedas as per Thirumurugatrupadai.

uppuma

[bis_mala]

Friends,

Siva - the very name doesnot appear any of the texts of Sangam lit, or Tholkappiyam.

The words iNaiyam, pErunthu, tholaipEsi, naadaaLumanRam, etc etc., all not in Tolkaappiyam and Sangam Lit. So these are not Tamil words??



Manimekhalai has Saivavathi and the man uses more Vedic taughts and Tholkappiyam and Sangam refers Vedas at many places.

So according to you Manimekalai was written to promote Vedas?
Tolkappiyam is not a grammar book, it's a veda book?
The word vEtham itself is a Tamil word, coming from vEithal , meaning adorning, wearing, thatching, formulating. vid is also from "vithaithtal", planting seeds, inculcating. Metaphorically - inducing knowledge. Vetham does not mean AryavEtham of North India..


Paripadal has even the name of one of the Vedas..

Please reproduce it at the appropriate thread and we can discuss.


Muruga's One face is for Vedas as per Thirumurugatrupadai.

Please reproduce at the appropriate thread and explain. We shall discuss.

The Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia!! How are Sangam Lit, tolkappiyam and the rest related to the topic??

[KoH]

It is said that Abraham is the ancestor of Jews and Arabs. Abraham's God wanted him to sacrifice his son Isaak though it was the tradition to sacrifice a lamb which is pure. Sacrificing animals is also a trdition of vedic India and also still practised in India. Even the Christians say that God sacrificed his son Jesus in order to clean up the man kind.

When Moses came down from mount Sinai with the ten commandments written on stone as the Bible tells, the people were worshipping a golden calf.

So this all mean that the human kind did not worship one God. Instead they had all kind of deities dwelling each and everywhere. Is this vedic? Is this hinduism? It is everything but not monotheism. The Finn, The Vikings, The Greek, the Romans all worshiped Nature Gods. The Germans followed ancestor worship - Do these all mean that it is Hinduism? There will come a day when you you will aknowledge that the God is you and that you are the God!

In the Beginning there was only Darkness! From there everything evolved!
So what is vedic?

Knight of Honour

[SRS]

It is said that Abraham is the ancestor of Jews and Arabs. Abraham's God wanted him to sacrifice his son Isaak though it was the tradition to sacrifice a lamb which is pure. Sacrificing animals is also a trdition of vedic India and also still practised in India. Even the Christians say that God sacrificed his son Jesus in order to clean up the man kind.

When Moses came down from mount Sinai with the ten commandments written on stone as the Bible tells, the people were worshipping a golden calf.

So this all mean that the human kind did not worship one God. Instead they had all kind of deities dwelling each and everywhere. Is this vedic? Is this hinduism? It is everything but not monotheism. The Finn, The Vikings, The Greek, the Romans all worshiped Nature Gods. The Germans followed ancestor worship - Do these all mean that it is Hinduism? There will come a day when you you will aknowledge that the God is you and that you are the God!

In the Beginning there was only Darkness! From there everything evolved!
So what is vedic?

Knight of Honour

Judaism was polytheistic before it became monotheistic.

[KoH]

It is said that Abraham is the ancestor of Jews and Arabs. Abraham's God wanted him to sacrifice his son Isaak though it was the tradition to sacrifice a lamb which is pure. Sacrificing animals is also a trdition of vedic India and also still practised in India. Even the Christians say that God sacrificed his son Jesus in order to clean up the man kind.

When Moses came down from mount Sinai with the ten commandments written on stone as the Bible tells, the people were worshipping a golden calf.

So this all mean that the human kind did not worship one God. Instead they had all kind of deities dwelling each and everywhere. Is this vedic? Is this hinduism? It is everything but not monotheism. The Finn, The Vikings, The Greek, the Romans all worshiped Nature Gods. The Germans followed ancestor worship - Do these all mean that it is Hinduism? There will come a day when you you will aknowledge that the God is you and that you are the God!

In the Beginning there was only Darkness! From there everything evolved!
So what is vedic?

Knight of Honour

Judaism was polytheistic before it became monotheistic.

The Tora clearly tells that the Monothesim of Jews, Christians and Muslims (chronological order) starts with Abraham, the father of Isaac and Ismail. And Isaac was the father of Jacob and Esau. Jacob had 12 sons who were the ancestors of the 12 tribes of Israel.

But the principle of monotheism is not originating from the Bible. I think it was Amenhotep (IV.) (Echnaton in German and and in English it is Ak(h)en-Aten or Ak(h)enaten) Pharo of Egypt who introduced one God theory. The One and only God was Aton or Aten.

[SRS]

It is said that Abraham is the ancestor of Jews and Arabs. Abraham's God wanted him to sacrifice his son Isaak though it was the tradition to sacrifice a lamb which is pure. Sacrificing animals is also a trdition of vedic India and also still practised in India. Even the Christians say that God sacrificed his son Jesus in order to clean up the man kind.

When Moses came down from mount Sinai with the ten commandments written on stone as the Bible tells, the people were worshipping a golden calf.

So this all mean that the human kind did not worship one God. Instead they had all kind of deities dwelling each and everywhere. Is this vedic? Is this hinduism? It is everything but not monotheism. The Finn, The Vikings, The Greek, the Romans all worshiped Nature Gods. The Germans followed ancestor worship - Do these all mean that it is Hinduism? There will come a day when you you will aknowledge that the God is you and that you are the God!

In the Beginning there was only Darkness! From there everything evolved!
So what is vedic?

Knight of Honour

Judaism was polytheistic before it became monotheistic.

The Tora clearly tells that the Monothesim of Jews, Christians and Muslims (chronological order) starts with Abraham, the father of Isaac and Ismail. And Isaac was the father of Jacob and Esau. Jacob had 12 sons who were the ancestors of the 12 tribes of Israel.

But the principle of monotheism is not originating from the Bible. I think it was Amenhotep (IV.) (Echnaton in German and and in English it is Ak(h)en-Aten or Ak(h)enaten) Pharo of Egypt who introduced one God theory. The One and only God was Aton or Aten.

Nietzsche explains this somewhat in the "Antichrist." There are still remnants of polytheism in Judaism - angels, archangels, demons, etc.

[Sanskritist]

The Jewish G-d is was actually known by many different names, viz Elohim and Yahweh.

Elhoim has the strong attribute of a storm god. He was derived in part from the Hittite deities - Indrnil, varunsil. The hittites who inhabited Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Southern Turkey around 2500 BCE were vedic Indo-Europeans.

This is clearly evident from the INSCRIPTION in Bughaz-Kui in Turkey - even found today.

Besides, the great science writer Isaac Asimov has completely analyses the Bible as being nothing more than a twaddling of idiots.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/051734582X/102-2650314-8091369?v=glance&n=283155

[mahadevan]

Besides, the great science writer Isaac Asimov has completely analyses the Bible as being nothing more than a twaddling of idiots
absolutely true, but a greater number of intellectuals have said that vedas are nothing but twaddling of idiots, they are also correct.
Man made God and Religion buddy and not the other way around

[Uppuma]

[tscii:feacc07d06]Friends,

The Vedic Civilisation had spread from Kanyakumari to Egypt and later Avestha split, and due to the Tamming of Camels in 1200BCE, local Tribe over powered soft Indians and Indians were to settle in India.

The khandara of Mahabaratha is in Afganistan i.e., Kandahar etc., stands proof of the same.

Bible, including Torah is Polytheistic, and worships not the God, but a small diety called yhwh- pronounced as Jehovah, and Bible calls them as God of Abraham-Isaac and Jacob. And Biblical Scholars say its a Syncretism of various god worshippers.

Many portions of Torah are Anti-God thesis, including famous Babel story, where Lord became envy of Man's unity and split them, The Cosmic Flood talked in Novah's period, as per Bible Chronologies can be dated to around BCE2100 to 2200 and Science and also standing Mud Mummies in Egypt confirms the Hallowness of this myth. Quiet a lot of Hebrew words can be traced to Sanskrit and a few to Tamil.

Mala Tells
//According to Gilbert Slater, Rig Veda condemned Linga worship which is an integral part of the Saivam. He says that Siva and Vishnu pre-existed Rig Veda…..
See also "pazan-thamizk koLkaiyE saivasamayam" & "thamizar matham" by Maraimalai Adigal and the references given by him in his books need to be refuted if a contrary view is to be taken.//

I sincerely regret fsg position, It has been explained in the Saivam Thread- that Book tells that Saiva Tamil and Vedic Rudra are same, and also the way MaraimalaiAdigal wrote the book referred above. I QUOTE from MM.Adigal-"thamizar matham" Page number -¸¹Õ i.e.,135.Here he says, close to 2nd Century A.D.,those worshipped SIVA (appan) Pridominantly AND those Who worshipped Umai or Parvathi (ammai) Predominantly got separated and I now quote tamil in full:

þùÅ¢Õ §ÅÚ ÌØÅ¢Éâø «ôÀ¨É Ží̧š÷, «õ¨Á¨Â Ží̧š¨ÃÔõ, «õ¨Á¨Â Ží̧š÷ «ôÀ¨É Ží̧š¨ÃÔõ þÆ¢òÐô §Àº¢ì ¸Ä¡õ Å¢¨Çì¸Ä¡Â¢É÷. þ즸¡û¨¸ô §À¡Ã¢ø þÕ ÌØÅ¢ÉÕõ ¦ÀñÀ¢ÈÅ¢¨Âì ̨ÈÅ¡¸ì ¸Õ¾×õ §Àº×ó ÐÅí¸§Å, «õ¨Á¨Â Å½í¸¢Â ÌØšâø ´Õ ¦ÀÕõ À̾¢Â¡÷ ¸¼×¨Çô ¦ÀñÅÊÅ¢ø ¨ÅòÐÅÆ¢À¡Î Òâ¾ø ¾ÁìÌ þÆ¢¦ÅÉì ¸Õ¾¢ «õ¨ÁÔõ «ôÀɡ츢 «ÅüÌ Á¡§Â¡ý, ¾¢ÕÁ¡ø ±ýÛõ ¦ÀÂ÷¸¨Çô Ò¨ÉóРŢ¼Ä¡Â¢É÷.


ivviru veeRu kuzuvinaril appanai vaNangkuvoor, ammaiyai vaNangkuvooraiyum, ammaiyai vaNangkuvoor appanai vaNangkuvooraiyum iziththup peesik kalaam viLaikkalaayinar. ikkoLkaip pooril iru kuzuvinarum peNpiRaviyaik kuRaivaakak karuthavum peesavu-n thuvangkavee, ammaiyai vaNangkiya kuzuvaaril oru perum pakuthiyaar kadavuLaip peNvadivil vaiththuvazipaadu purithal thamakku izivenak karuthi ammaiyum appanaakki avarkU maayoon, thirumaal ennum peyarkaLaip punainththu vidalaayinar page-134,135

Friends,- THolkappiyam dated to Ist Cen. BCE, Does not have the name Siva, Sangam Lit dated to 200BCE to 200CE does not have Siva- the noun; Thirukural written immediately after Sangam does not have Siva. Where as Tholkappiyam and all has Maayoon- Is the writing of This M.M.Adigal who being Saivite- writing such a meaningless thesis; without any Scriptural support, is of No trust worthy. New Words come from development of accepting other languages or developing of New words. But absence proves its non-use earlier.

He lived in 20th cen. first half; but to quote him now is meaningless. Again Slater’s writings have been well thoroughly out of date and it is Absolute clear All Indians are from Africa and nothing Otherwise as per DNA researches. Gilbert Slater like many other Famous Indologists was clear -DRAVIDIAN Language speakers are not Habitants of India- but only Settlers. Linguistically- Bishop Caldwell, Burrows; A.L.Basham etc., all maintain Proto Dravdian Speakers are not Natives of India. Other than Adichanallur no proper Settlements of humanity and civilization in South has come out. Aadichanallur is yet to be carbon-14 ddted properly.

No use in Backdating 3nd CenBCE inscription of Brami,with few pictograms got in Srilanka-by Professor Indrapala of Jaffna University and purposely misdating it to 1600BCE, and reading it as he wants was done by Dr.Mathiwanan, and his method of Forgery of Indus Script Deciphering can be viewed in the Official website of Harvard University discussed in 2003 meeting Convention.

Translators of Veda did quiet a lot of mistranslations, both due to lack of Knowledge of SANSkrit and Purposfully, and Dayananda Saraswathi protested immediately and Maxmuller has to be later more careful and in his last books he wrote that Translation of Vedas properly is for the Next Cen. Work, and Even Harvard University says the same thing today also. So quoting Authors like Maraimalai Adigal etc., or the Deciphering Forgeries of Indus really do not help. Maraimalai Adigal book saying Vedas- quotes are in Sangam siva reference is already given in Saivam Thread.

Indian Ideas belongs to Indians-there is no Aryan or Dravidian; Tamil and Sanskrit are the Surviving Oldest languages. Sanskrit has Vedas from 2000BCE as per concluded datings by Unbiased International Universities, and Tamil Lit, of Sangam is Concluded to 20o BCE TO 200ce BY AGAIN Unbiased International Universities; NOW not accepting all this and Arguing with authors of doubtful reputation does not help.

If you want I can quote MM.Adigal from the very same book where many times he says His caste is superior to other Tamils etc., I think let us leave this unacceptable Highly Biased works. He contradicts himself on several points several times within this one book.

Tholkappiyam author’s real name was ThiranaThumagni- a Brahmin from the Tribe of Parasuramar (Jamathagni was his father’s name); as per Irayanar Agapporulurai. Tholkappiyam and Sangam Lit. and Thirukural refers Vedas at many places and regards Very Highly.

Most of the Indologists worked on thinking that Veda Authors with such a high level of thinking and knowledge by 2000BCE or earlier cannot be of Indian Origin- brought highly dropped Aryan Invasion (or incoming) myths. Linguistics was hypothesis speculations- every body can say anything; No Archeology or DNA has proved such. Linguists now say Dravidians as Vantherigal, which is not to suit our likings.

Each Biased author tells that so many tamil words are in Rig veda; it is better we stop with Professor Dr.Burrows; who said only 20 Words, and he is more Reputed than others.

Bible dating is much later than Vedas, even Torah can only be 250 - 300 BCE only and it has burrowed many from Vedas or Avesta to be more proper, and if Friends are interested I Can quote a lot of Bible Researchers shortly.

Please see Vedas and Sangam Lit. in one view, and read them as Works of that Period, Calling Manu as Dravidian, and Manusmrithis’s laws of those times as INTERpolation is meaningless. Tholkappiyam and Sangam Lit. talks good of SAthi, Widows being burnt in Husband’s Buiral, which has no Support in Vedas or Manusmrithi, I can quote Slater on Casteism is from Dravidians and not from Vedas also. Please stop quoting selectively, few sentence to your liking.

Friends, Let us all be united, and not be disturbed by meaningless speculations.
Uppuma











[/tscii:feacc07d06]

[Lambretta]

Friends,

The Vedic Civilisation had spread from Kanyakumari to Egypt and later Avestha split, and due to the Tamming of Camels in 1200BCE, local Tribe over powered soft Indians and Indians were to settle in India.
Egypt-le kooda va??!! :shock: Wow, unbelievable! So the "ancient" (ie, pharaoh) civilisation of Egypt wasn't the original one either......?!


The khandara of Mahabaratha is in Afganistan i.e., Kandahar etc., stands proof of the same.
Actually I believe it was called as "Gandhar".......in Mahabharata Shakuni had his kingdom there, he was also known as "Gandhar Naresh".......even his sister Gandhari (mother of Kauravas) got her name from tat place......


Translators of Veda did quiet a lot of mistranslations, both due to lack of Knowledge of SANSkrit and Purposfully, and Dayananda Saraswathi protested immediately and Maxmuller has to be later more careful and in his last books he wrote that Translation of Vedas properly is for the Next Cen. Work
This morning at the RK mission I was told in a talk tat Max Muller was originally an ardent follower of Hinduism & Sri Ramakrishna & he spent nearly 16 years of his life studying Hinduism...until the Church powers had him change his attitude towards Hinduism, causing him to turn against the Vedic/Hindu philosophies & thus misinterpret everything, inc. creating a major rift of Aryan-Dravidian etc!

[SRS]

absolutely true, but a greater number of intellectuals have said that vedas are nothing but twaddling of idiots, they are also correct.

Who are these intellectuals?
-deleted-

[devapriya]

Many Scholars have pointed out that worship of God- ElShaddai as Pillar, poring of Oil and Alchohal are purely Vedic and resemblance of Lingam, and Rig Veda 3:8 has it.

The Name ElShaddai is from Tamil- again its orientation with Vedas have been put in Saivam Thread from very word of Maraimalai Aadigal.

Many articles against Maxmuller's mistransltion are available in Net.
But Maxmuller played a Politician and Christian type, writing differently for different occasions to suit his audience, in the end loosing his name. Maxmuller Appointment was itself was by Indian Church, which Shaddowed RajaRam Moham Rai- with one Rev.Adams to convert; Ram Mohan Rai who learnt Hebrew and Greek to know Original Bible, proved to Adams that Bible was Polytheistic, where as Vedas teach Monotheism, and Rev.Adams got convertd to Brahmo Samaj. Church then pressurrised East India Co. to fund and came in Maxmuller.

Bible Verses at many point proves it taken from Vedic Ideas.

Archeology in Israle revealed that Jews certainly had Idol worship even for Yahweh, till Jesus days. Maccabes also confirm this. Biblical Scholars say that Biblical Monotheism is more a Literary Religion which was never Practised, and Historical portions of Bible confirms it. Bible Torah- First five books are dated to 350-250 BCE, Prophets to 250 -50 BCE and Writings to 200 BCE TO 125CE; now anybody gives other wise please give links please.

The Khaba- has the Lingam till today; and now due to rush instead of kissing it and People now give Flying Kiss. Coming round of Khaba- Lingam is Haj or Prathakshan as we call.

Devapriya

[bis_mala]

Looking at the materials so far put in this thread, there is no conclusive evidence for the Vedic past of pre-Islamic Arabia. Even without any of the materials herein, one would be able to accept that there were idol worships both in India and Arabia but this is hardly Vedic. The status of proof is still the same . There have been some words in Arabic which sound similar to Sanskrit. There are two possibilities: Sanskrit could have borrowed them or Arabic could have borrowed them from Sanskirt or some other language (a common source). It is also not conclusively established that the words were originally from Sanskrit. As Abbe Dubois wrote in his book, the language and its words could have come from the Middle East.


Vedic does not just mean idol worhip. Hindu does not just mean any idol worship. Idol worship existed in China too; but the Chinese are not hindus or vedic people.

[Uppuma]

Friends,

The STORY of Moses is based purely on Mahabaratha's Karna and that of Jesus is based on Lord-Krishna.

This have been of seen by Many Biblical Scholars LIKE Ernest Renan
have reviewed this.

Jesus Miracles have been taken from Budda's Tales.

Manys such have been seen.

The story of SATAN is pulled from Avestha, a Good God and an Adversary etc.,

Bible can be discussed in Depth, but that could be not acceptable to many.

[bis_mala]

Friends,

The STORY of Moses is based purely on Mahabaratha's Karna and that of Jesus is based on Lord-Krishna.

This have been of seen by Many Biblical Scholars LIKE Ernest Renan
have reviewed this.

Jesus Miracles have been taken from Budda's Tales.

Manys such have been seen.

The story of SATAN is pulled from Avestha, a Good God and an Adversary etc.,

Bible can be discussed in Depth, but that could be not acceptable to many.

Possible theories, some of which may have some merit though nothing conclusive...........!! I pointed out some of these theories when you wrote as PaulThomas!! Have you seen the film THE LAST TEMPTATION directed by Martin Scorcese. Thesis, Anti-Thesis, Theories, Fictions......so many.

Guard yourself from being "cheated" by one, only to be "cheated" by another -- good and proper without you even realising.it!

[karuvaadu]

Friends,

The STORY of Moses is based purely on Mahabaratha's Karna and that of Jesus is based on Lord-Krishna.

But I don't remember Lord Krishna hanging on cross! And I also don't remeber Jesus driving the chariot for Arjuna. But he ride on a donkey! Krishna did not ride a donkey, he did not even ride on a horse!

[indian224080]

MOderators,
Please delete the unwanted replies in this thread not related to this thread.
Thanks
Indian224080

[karuvaadu]

MOderators,
Please delete the unwanted replies in this thread not related to this thread.
Thanks
Indian224080
You won't have to cry for Moderators if all of you keep on sticking to the topic!

For example:

Uppuma, Devapriya, SRS.

It is all about actions and reactions!

[indian224080]

MOderators,
Please delete the unwanted replies in this thread not related to this thread.
Thanks
Indian224080
You won't have to cry for Moderators if all of you keep on sticking to the topic!

For example:

Uppuma, Devapriya, SRS.

It is all about actions and reactions!

Excuse me!!!!
everyone u mentioned have been posting related to this thread, Hinduism in Middle east/Arabia. It was u and ur ilks who are bringing ur Dravidian crap hypotheses into this thread.
So look who is talking abt actions and reactions. I can understand u wanting to spoil all threads due to severe inferiority complex that u suffer..
Anyway. I shall quit deviating from the main topic of this thread.

[karuvaadu]

Excuse me!!!!
everyone u mentioned have been posting related to this thread, Hinduism in Middle east/Arabia. It was u and ur ilks who are bringing ur Dravidian crap hypotheses into this thread.
So look who is talking abt actions and reactions. I can understand u wanting to spoil all threads due to severe inferiority complex that u suffer..
Anyway. I shall quit deviating from the main topic of this thread.

Yes, I excuse you! Now tell me what is this post by your vedic bro uppuma doing here? He is comparing bible and mahabaratha, Jesus and Krishna and Buddha!



Friends,

The STORY of Moses is based purely on Mahabaratha's Karna and that of Jesus is based on Lord-Krishna.

This have been of seen by Many Biblical Scholars LIKE Ernest Renan
have reviewed this.

Jesus Miracles have been taken from Budda's Tales.

Manys such have been seen.

The story of SATAN is pulled from Avestha, a Good God and an Adversary etc.,

Bible can be discussed in Depth, but that could be not acceptable to many.


Now you have to see which vedic crap causes which dravidian crap! Otherwise you are as blind as dried cow dung! You all call tiger, tiger and cheat the people and when the real tiger comes you blame on people that they are not comming! You stop with your crap and bring on your arguments and I'll put up my questions as always!

[indian224080]

Excuse me!!!!
everyone u mentioned have been posting related to this thread, Hinduism in Middle east/Arabia. It was u and ur ilks who are bringing ur Dravidian crap hypotheses into this thread.
So look who is talking abt actions and reactions. I can understand u wanting to spoil all threads due to severe inferiority complex that u suffer..
Anyway. I shall quit deviating from the main topic of this thread.

Yes, I excuse you! Now tell me what is this post by your vedic bro uppuma doing here? He is comparing bible and mahabaratha, Jesus and Krishna and Buddha!



Friends,

The STORY of Moses is based purely on Mahabaratha's Karna and that of Jesus is based on Lord-Krishna.

This have been of seen by Many Biblical Scholars LIKE Ernest Renan
have reviewed this.

Jesus Miracles have been taken from Budda's Tales.

Manys such have been seen.

The story of SATAN is pulled from Avestha, a Good God and an Adversary etc.,

Bible can be discussed in Depth, but that could be not acceptable to many.


Now you have to see which vedic crap causes which dravidian crap! Otherwise you are as blind as dried cow dung! You all call tiger, tiger and cheat the people and when the real tiger comes you blame on people that they are not comming! You stop with your crap and bring on your arguments and I'll put up my questions as always!

Dude Look at the first crap



"The French Researcher Abbe Dubois ( a familiar person to Max Muller)) in his Hindu Religion, Customs and Practices seem to say that some important features of Hinduism of the North were from Middle East but not so categorically (itemised manner) as above. He says that the word Brahma is from Abraham (Arabic: Ibrahim) (In Abraham, remove prefix A- and compare the rest of the word ). Further says Manu is corruption of the word Noah. Accounts of the Great Deluge are compared. The Jews may have got Brahman from Egypt as Gilbert Slater traces Brahma's origin to that country. Brahman existed in pre - Vedic Age.

However Siva is from South India and in the beginning of the Vedic Age, he was not accepted as a god. A subsequent compromise landed him as the last in the pantheon or trinity. Dubois says the Hindu Trinity developed after the doctrine of Blessed Trinity in Catholicism. and was a subsequent event in Hinduism.

But the mode of worship in Pre-Islamic Arabia was somewhat identical to that of India according to most historians I have read."


posted by some Friggin Dravidian Stooge. Lots of posts have been deleted in this thread. First Stooge was Idiappam whose was deleted. Then Bismala brought the Dravidian crap in this thread. Then everything started. If you guys want to post something useful to the thread post it or else just back off and let others to do the same. Now look at actions and reactions...We call Tigers as tigers but we do not call a Cat as a tiger like some Tamil Supras do.

Morever Uppumas response was to Craps posted by koH and mahadevan. So if u stop interfering in other threads in which u have no iota of knowledge that wud be a real blessing.

Thank you.

[karuvaadu]

bis_mala is clearly reffering to Dubois but yours are shouting vedic vedic without delivering any valid proofs! Not even invalid proofs.

The olny vedic god that was found is Mitra cojoined with Zeus on a coin. Why don't you call Thor and Odin as vedic too?

And it is also not a real tiger you call as tiger. Your vedic manias even call each and every cow covered in stripes as tigers.

And if you besr all the knowledge that not even touches me the slightest then why don't you come up with the proofs I am asking for!

This is section is indian history/culture and not the vedic past of pre-islamic Arabia. Accordignly this thread is made by vedic stooges. Do you agree?

Go and post this topic in an arbic forum and give me the link, PLEASE!

[bis_mala]

It was u and ur ilks who are bringing ur Dravidian crap hypotheses into this thread.

If a Dravidian or non-Dravidian hypothesis is valid and relevant to the topic, other hubbers are entitled to bring it up for discussion. If no one can bring up any issue for discussion related to the topic, then it is not a forum. Might as well frame it up at home, read the material to one's heart's content and be happy about it....!!

If you do not want to discuss anything openly, then the best course of action is not to put it forward for discussion at all.

If anyone wants to start a discussion in which only those like- minded persons would be acceptable, then perhaps you may wish to write to the moderators and administrators and start your own group. Then others would be automatically excluded and everything would be smooth-sailing for you!!

I do not understand why you say that the materials I put forward were Dravidian crap. Abe Dubois was not a Dravidian; he was French. He lived during the time of Maxmuller. Slater too was an Englishman. He lived more than 100 years ago - roughly. He was not a Dravidian sympathizer. These are independent historians. How could anyone in his proper mind describe them as authors of crap?

[Idiappam]

Indian-XXX said:
posted by some Friggin Dravidian Stooge. Lots of posts have been deleted in this thread. First Stooge was Idiappam whose was deleted.

Hai! Anti-Tamil Vedic Stooge Indianxxx. my post was deleted along with yours - and mine was just a reply to your vedic lies! Keep that in mind please

[bis_mala]

The following words and phrases in the first post by IndianXXX may be offensive to Muslims generally. Indian clearly says that the Muslim religion is destructive. When posting, such offensive phrases should have been censored by the poster even if it was not written by him.
There have been sufficient Hindu Muslim conflicts. We do not want more because of the attack in these terms:


the destructive advent of Islam,

It is the prophet Muhammad and the followers of Islam who are fully responsible for the dissemination and destruction of this once glorious culture.

The fact that Arabs regarded India as their spiritual and cultural motherland long
before the damaging influence of Islam is corroborated by the following poem which mentions each one of the four Vedas by name:

With Islam came the flood of destruction, murder, plunder and crime that destroyed the great Vedic heritage of Arabs. The Prophet merely took some existing artefacts and terms and corrupted them so profoundly that no one would be able to discover their actual origins.

[indian224080]

The following words and phrases in the first post by IndianXXX may be offensive to Muslims generally. Indian clearly says that the Muslim religion is destructive. When posting, such offensive phrases should have been censored by the poster even if it was not written by him.
There have been sufficient Hindu Muslim conflicts. We do not want more because of the attack in these terms:


the destructive advent of Islam,

It is the prophet Muhammad and the followers of Islam who are fully responsible for the dissemination and destruction of this once glorious culture.

The fact that Arabs regarded India as their spiritual and cultural motherland long
before the damaging influence of Islam is corroborated by the following poem which mentions each one of the four Vedas by name:

With Islam came the flood of destruction, murder, plunder and crime that destroyed the great Vedic heritage of Arabs. The Prophet merely took some existing artefacts and terms and corrupted them so profoundly that no one would be able to discover their actual origins.

Aha Thats why i had included the link saying that I am just referring that post. Had i coined those words then probably i am inciting trouble unlike Most of the Tamil suprema guys here who are adding Aryan Dravidian crap out of their imagination and formenting trouble and lies among the masses thereby adding more feelings of disunity among masses...

As far as discussing the topic releated to thread u may post anything and i know that discussions cannot be done wiithout debating on points but posting any irrelevant material of Mr Dubois related to some Dravidian myth and adding that in Vedic past of Pre-islamic arabia is something thats highly absurd, Irrelevant and abnoxious.

[stranger]

The following words and phrases in the first post by IndianXXX may be offensive to Muslims generally. Indian clearly says that the Muslim religion is destructive. When posting, such offensive phrases should have been censored by the poster even if it was not written by him.

Yeah, this is a secular forum. If someone is going to offend my muslim friends, he/she will pay big!


the destructive advent of Islam,

It is the prophet Muhammad and the followers of Islam who are fully responsible for the dissemination and destruction of this once glorious culture.

The fact that Arabs regarded India as their spiritual and cultural motherland long

BTW, the way I identify an animal and human being is by looking at how much respect they give to other religion or how careful they are when commenting on other religions!

[indian224080]

bis_mala is clearly reffering to Dubois but yours are shouting vedic vedic without delivering any valid proofs! Not even invalid proofs.

The olny vedic god that was found is Mitra cojoined with Zeus on a coin. Why don't you call Thor and Odin as vedic too?

And it is also not a real tiger you call as tiger. Your vedic manias even call each and every cow covered in stripes as tigers.

And if you besr all the knowledge that not even touches me the slightest then why don't you come up with the proofs I am asking for!

This is section is indian history/culture and not the vedic past of pre-islamic Arabia. Accordignly this thread is made by vedic stooges. Do you agree?

Go and post this topic in an arbic forum and give me the link, PLEASE!

Hey dude if this is indian history and culture post anything related to indian history and culture. If my thread in Vedic Pre-Islamic Arabia is not related to Indian History and culture then probably ur Tamil Supremacists threads, Kumari Kandam,Dravidian greatness,Crow killing etc., are also Strictly not Indian History and Culture.

[Idiappam]

I kept going over and over this thread and I don't see anything that shows clearly that - Pre-Islamic Arabia was Vedic.

All I saw was just round-the-bush beatings by some Vedics trying to hoodwink the rest. Good try anyway - especially the Indian-XXX. Keep lying!

[bis_mala]

The following words and phrases in the first post by IndianXXX may be offensive to Muslims generally. Indian clearly says that the Muslim religion is destructive. When posting, such offensive phrases should have been censored by the poster even if it was not written by him.
There have been sufficient Hindu Muslim conflicts. We do not want more because of the attack in these terms:


the destructive advent of Islam,

It is the prophet Muhammad and the followers of Islam who are fully responsible for the dissemination and destruction of this once glorious culture.

The fact that Arabs regarded India as their spiritual and cultural motherland long
before the damaging influence of Islam is corroborated by the following poem which mentions each one of the four Vedas by name:

With Islam came the flood of destruction, murder, plunder and crime that destroyed the great Vedic heritage of Arabs. The Prophet merely took some existing artefacts and terms and corrupted them so profoundly that no one would be able to discover their actual origins.

Aha Thats why i had included the link saying that I am just referring that post. Had i coined those words then probably i am inciting trouble unlike Most of the Tamil suprema guys here who are adding Aryan Dravidian crap out of their imagination and formenting trouble and lies among the masses thereby adding more feelings of disunity among masses...

As far as discussing the topic releated to thread u may post anything and i know that discussions cannot be done wiithout debating on points but posting any irrelevant material of Mr Dubois related to some Dravidian myth and adding that in Vedic past of Pre-islamic arabia is something thats highly absurd, Irrelevant and abnoxious.

Please do not give excuses, go back to what you have reproduced from another website and edit your material so that it does not offend Muslims. Your topic does not necessarily require such attacks on others. You can claim even falsely for discussion that the Pre-Islamic mode of worship in Arabia came from the Vedas but without an attack on Islam.

Also, this topic may be remotely relevant to Indian History and Culture but you must know that it is always a matter of degree. Beyond a certain point it will become irrelevant. If you are- for example - writing a book on Vedas in India, you may permit yourself some paragraphs on Vedic past of Arabia but it is another matter to indulge in it wholesale.
Do not become emotional, just sit down and think about it.

[karuvaadu]

Hey dude if this is indian history and culture post anything related to indian history and culture. If my thread in Vedic Pre-Islamic Arabia is not related to Indian History and culture then probably ur Tamil Supremacists threads, Kumari Kandam,Dravidian greatness,Crow killing etc., are also Strictly not Indian History and Culture.

So you admit that this is a vedic supremacist's thread? Your thread? By the way isn't it that the rules for this section are not to discuss anything related to religion?

[indian224080]

Hey dude if this is indian history and culture post anything related to indian history and culture. If my thread in Vedic Pre-Islamic Arabia is not related to Indian History and culture then probably ur Tamil Supremacists threads, Kumari Kandam,Dravidian greatness,Crow killing etc., are also Strictly not Indian History and Culture.

So you admit that this is a vedic supremacist's thread? Your thread? By the way isn't it that the rules for this section are not to discuss anything related to religion?

How can u discuss Indian culture in this Section without discussing Religion. India and Hinduism are linked together. You cannot discuss Indian culture and history without discussing Hinduism.
Well i dont claim it as vedic suprema thread but i cannot change the way how you look at it. There are(were) lot of Tamil Supremas thread in this entire section. People who have faith in Vedas are not onto Tit for Tat.

[indian224080]

The following words and phrases in the first post by IndianXXX may be offensive to Muslims generally. Indian clearly says that the Muslim religion is destructive. When posting, such offensive phrases should have been censored by the poster even if it was not written by him.
There have been sufficient Hindu Muslim conflicts. We do not want more because of the attack in these terms:


the destructive advent of Islam,

It is the prophet Muhammad and the followers of Islam who are fully responsible for the dissemination and destruction of this once glorious culture.

The fact that Arabs regarded India as their spiritual and cultural motherland long
before the damaging influence of Islam is corroborated by the following poem which mentions each one of the four Vedas by name:

With Islam came the flood of destruction, murder, plunder and crime that destroyed the great Vedic heritage of Arabs. The Prophet merely took some existing artefacts and terms and corrupted them so profoundly that no one would be able to discover their actual origins.

Aha Thats why i had included the link saying that I am just referring that post. Had i coined those words then probably i am inciting trouble unlike Most of the Tamil suprema guys here who are adding Aryan Dravidian crap out of their imagination and formenting trouble and lies among the masses thereby adding more feelings of disunity among masses...

As far as discussing the topic releated to thread u may post anything and i know that discussions cannot be done wiithout debating on points but posting any irrelevant material of Mr Dubois related to some Dravidian myth and adding that in Vedic past of Pre-islamic arabia is something thats highly absurd, Irrelevant and abnoxious.

Please do not give excuses, go back to what you have reproduced from another website and edit your material so that it does not offend Muslims. Your topic does not necessarily require such attacks on others. You can claim even falsely for discussion that the Pre-Islamic mode of worship in Arabia came from the Vedas but without an attack on Islam.

Also, this topic may be remotely relevant to Indian History and Culture but you must know that it is always a matter of degree. Beyond a certain point it will become irrelevant. If you are- for example - writing a book on Vedas in India, you may permit yourself some paragraphs on Vedic past of Arabia but it is another matter to indulge in it wholesale.
Do not become emotional, just sit down and think about it.

What about the Aryan Dravidian Crap that u always highlight in your threads. What abt the Tamil Supremacists thread that u have created. Are they not Offending anyone else? I dont even need to try anything remotely Falsely. Am just reproducing whats given in the Internet and opening it up for discussion. Note i am reproducing whats given and i dont have any liberty to add/cut/delete from any of the texts that i paste. I guess u might have a habit to do like that.If you do not wish to contribute then please do not do so. As far as Claiming this thread not related to India, then ur Tamil threads are in no way related to India and its culture and its history.

Am not Emotional Just highlighting the essence of discussion.

Thanks
Indian224080.

[karuvaadu]

Hey dude if this is indian history and culture post anything related to indian history and culture. If my thread in Vedic Pre-Islamic Arabia is not related to Indian History and culture then probably ur Tamil Supremacists threads, Kumari Kandam,Dravidian greatness,Crow killing etc., are also Strictly not Indian History and Culture.

So you admit that this is a vedic supremacist's thread? Your thread? By the way isn't it that the rules for this section are not to discuss anything related to religion?

How can u discuss Indian culture in this Section without discussing Religion. India and Hinduism are linked together. You cannot discuss Indian culture and history without discussing Hinduism.
Well i dont claim it as vedic suprema thread but i cannot change the way how you look at it. There are(were) lot of Tamil Supremas thread in this entire section. People who have faith in Vedas are not onto Tit for Tat.
NOV wrote in Do's and Dont's:
1. Discussions on religion is definitely out.
You should better have the ability to read to obey the rules of this section! Instead, you call for your mama's milk bottle now!

And sivalingam is not at all vedic! The only thing that is common to Arabia and vedic could be that there are folks that drive cattle is existing! So get back to your cattle and look after it befor the tigers get them!

[indian224080]

Hey dude if this is indian history and culture post anything related to indian history and culture. If my thread in Vedic Pre-Islamic Arabia is not related to Indian History and culture then probably ur Tamil Supremacists threads, Kumari Kandam,Dravidian greatness,Crow killing etc., are also Strictly not Indian History and Culture.

So you admit that this is a vedic supremacist's thread? Your thread? By the way isn't it that the rules for this section are not to discuss anything related to religion?

How can u discuss Indian culture in this Section without discussing Religion. India and Hinduism are linked together. You cannot discuss Indian culture and history without discussing Hinduism.
Well i dont claim it as vedic suprema thread but i cannot change the way how you look at it. There are(were) lot of Tamil Supremas thread in this entire section. People who have faith in Vedas are not onto Tit for Tat.
NOV wrote in Do's and Dont's:
1. Discussions on religion is definitely out.
You should better have the ability to read to obey the rules of this section! Instead, you call for your mama's milk bottle now!

And sivalingam is not at all vedic! The only thing that is common to Arabia and vedic could be that there are folks that drive cattle is existing! So get back to your cattle and look after it befor the tigers get them!
Yeah ur Obscene remarks Clearly indicate the type of upbringing u have got. Anyway Sivalingam being Vedic or not please....Open up a Separate thread. As far as driving cattle, cattle tamers dont like to get advise from Crow meat eaters and lungi weilders.

[karuvaadu]

Yeah ur Obscene remarks Clearly indicate the type of upbringing u have got. Anyway Sivalingam being Vedic or not please....Open up a Separate thread. As far as driving cattle, cattle tamers dont like to get advise from Crow meat eaters and lungi weilders.

I am still sticking to the topic! Show me the piece that sounds obscene!

Don't bother about my upbringing; It is up to me to bring you down! And along with you the vedic past of this thread. It is you who disgrace, what a pitty, this vedic thread with crow meat and lungi! Go on!

[indian224080]

You may open ur eyes and read ur comments.
I dont care a hoot abt ur upbringing though.
Yup i do agree that its a pity i am writing abt Crow meat and Lungi at ur behest in this Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia thread.
Anwyay I shall stop deviating from the topic now.

[karuvaadu]

You may open ur eyes and read ur comments.
I dont care a hoot abt ur upbringing though.
But you do care about my upbringing, why to write about it else? Show me the piece of my obscenity!


Yup i do agree that its a pity i am writing abt Crow meat and Lungi at ur behest in this Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia thread.
Anwyay I shall stop deviating from the topic now. I welcome that! It is better for you!

[bis_mala]

The following words and phrases ..................................n these terms:


the destructive advent of Islam,

It is the prophet Muhammad and the followers of Islam who are fully responsible for the dissemination and destruction of this once glorious culture.

The fact that Arabs regarded India as their spiritual and cultural motherland long
before the damaging influence of Islam is corroborated by the following poem which mentions each one of the four Vedas by name:

With Islam came the flood of destruction, murder, plunder and crime that destroyed the great Vedic heritage of Arabs. The Prophet merely took some existing artefacts and terms and corrupted them so profoundly that no one would be able to discover their actual origins.

Aha Thats why i had included the link saying that I am just referring that post. Had i coined those words then probably i am inciting trouble unlike Most of the Tamil suprema guys here who are adding Aryan Dravidian crap out of their imagination and formenting trouble and lies among the masses thereby adding more feelings of disunity among masses...

As far as discussing the topic releated to thread u may post anything and i know that discussions cannot be done wiithout debating on points but posting any irrelevant material of Mr Dubois related to some Dravidian myth and adding that in Vedic past of Pre-islamic arabia is something thats highly absurd, Irrelevant and abnoxious.

Please do not give excuses, go back to what you have reproduced from another website and edit your material so that it does not offend Muslims. Your topic does not necessarily require such attacks on others. You can claim even falsely for discussion that the Pre-Islamic mode of worship in Arabia came from the Vedas but without an attack on Islam.

Also, this topic may be remotely relevant to Indian History and Culture but you must know that it is always a matter of degree. Beyond a certain point it will become irrelevant. If you are- for example - writing a book on Vedas in India, you may permit yourself some paragraphs on Vedic past of Arabia but it is another matter to indulge in it wholesale.
Do not become emotional, just sit down and think about it.

What about the Aryan Dravidian Crap that u always highlight in your threads. What abt the Tamil Supremacists thread that u have created. Are they not Offending anyone else? I dont even need to try anything remotely Falsely. Am just reproducing whats given in the Internet and opening it up for discussion. Note i am reproducing whats given and i dont have any liberty to add/cut/delete from any of the texts that i paste. I guess u might have a habit to do like that.If you do not wish to contribute then please do not do so. As far as Claiming this thread not related to India, then ur Tamil threads are in no way related to India and its culture and its history.

Am not Emotional Just highlighting the essence of discussion.

Thanks
Indian224080.


Note i am reproducing whats given and i dont have any liberty to add/cut/delete from any of the texts that i paste

That means that you knew the posts to be offensive to a certain religion but you nevertheless reproduced it and deliberately refrained from editing the offensive parts.
You are also saying the alleged Tamil/Dravidian supremacy views of others entitle you to reproduce it in that manner attacking Muslims!!.(Your justification!)
Do you think you are on proper grounds??


What about the Aryan Dravidian Crap that u always highlight in your threads.

Please note that you are neither an Aryan nor a Dravidian. You should mever be the one to complain about these matters. You are not a Tamil also. Hence you are not affected in any way. I am just focusing on matters of academic interest. You are not in that zone as well. So do not cry to moderators to delete the posts of others which are of no concern you. If you are not pleased with any of our contributions, you just do not have to read them. Just swich off like a radio.

[indian224080]

The following words and phrases ..................................n these terms:


the destructive advent of Islam,

It is the prophet Muhammad and the followers of Islam who are fully responsible for the dissemination and destruction of this once glorious culture.

The fact that Arabs regarded India as their spiritual and cultural motherland long
before the damaging influence of Islam is corroborated by the following poem which mentions each one of the four Vedas by name:

With Islam came the flood of destruction, murder, plunder and crime that destroyed the great Vedic heritage of Arabs. The Prophet merely took some existing artefacts and terms and corrupted them so profoundly that no one would be able to discover their actual origins.

Aha Thats why i had included the link saying that I am just referring that post. Had i coined those words then probably i am inciting trouble unlike Most of the Tamil suprema guys here who are adding Aryan Dravidian crap out of their imagination and formenting trouble and lies among the masses thereby adding more feelings of disunity among masses...

As far as discussing the topic releated to thread u may post anything and i know that discussions cannot be done wiithout debating on points but posting any irrelevant material of Mr Dubois related to some Dravidian myth and adding that in Vedic past of Pre-islamic arabia is something thats highly absurd, Irrelevant and abnoxious.

Please do not give excuses, go back to what you have reproduced from another website and edit your material so that it does not offend Muslims. Your topic does not necessarily require such attacks on others. You can claim even falsely for discussion that the Pre-Islamic mode of worship in Arabia came from the Vedas but without an attack on Islam.

Also, this topic may be remotely relevant to Indian History and Culture but you must know that it is always a matter of degree. Beyond a certain point it will become irrelevant. If you are- for example - writing a book on Vedas in India, you may permit yourself some paragraphs on Vedic past of Arabia but it is another matter to indulge in it wholesale.
Do not become emotional, just sit down and think about it.

What about the Aryan Dravidian Crap that u always highlight in your threads. What abt the Tamil Supremacists thread that u have created. Are they not Offending anyone else? I dont even need to try anything remotely Falsely. Am just reproducing whats given in the Internet and opening it up for discussion. Note i am reproducing whats given and i dont have any liberty to add/cut/delete from any of the texts that i paste. I guess u might have a habit to do like that.If you do not wish to contribute then please do not do so. As far as Claiming this thread not related to India, then ur Tamil threads are in no way related to India and its culture and its history.

Am not Emotional Just highlighting the essence of discussion.

Thanks
Indian224080.


Note i am reproducing whats given and i dont have any liberty to add/cut/delete from any of the texts that i paste

That means that you knew the posts to be offensive to a certain religion but you nevertheless reproduced it and deliberately refrained from editing the offensive parts.
You are also saying the alleged Tanmil/Dravidian supremacy views of others entitle you to reproduce it in that manner attacking Muslims!!.(Your justification!)
Do you think you are on proper grounds??


What about the Aryan Dravidian Crap that u always highlight in your threads.

Please note that you are neither an Aryan nor a Dravidian. You should mever be the one to complain about these matters. You are not a Tamil also. Hence you are not affected in any way. I am just focusing on matters of academic interest. You are not in that zone as well. So do not cry to moderators to delete the posts of others which are of no concern you. If you are not pleased with any of our contributions, you just do not have to read them. Just swich off like a radio.

Ditto to you BisMALA. Please do preach what u practice or practice what u preach. That might be good for u.

[bis_mala]

//Ditto to you BisMALA. Please do preach what u practice or practice what u preach. That might be good for u.//

Same to you!!

[stranger]

What a clown this Indian is! :shock:

[stranger]

How can u discuss Indian culture in this Section without discussing Religion. India and Hinduism are linked together. You cannot discuss Indian culture and history without discussing Hinduism.
Well i dont claim it as vedic suprema thread but i cannot change the way how you look at it. There are(were) lot of Tamil Supremas thread in this entire section.

Thamiz is a language which can be loved by any person and it does not matter he/she is a Christian, Muslim, or Hindu or Jain.

But even a quite a great percentage of Hindus and espe Hindu women can not appreciate Vedas and Manu's BS!

Show me one person who came from so called scheduled caste could appreciate Manu's justification!

DO NOT TALK NONSENSE! :twisted:

[indian224080]

How can u discuss Indian culture in this Section without discussing Religion. India and Hinduism are linked together. You cannot discuss Indian culture and history without discussing Hinduism.
Well i dont claim it as vedic suprema thread but i cannot change the way how you look at it. There are(were) lot of Tamil Supremas thread in this entire section.

Thamiz is a language which can be loved by any person and it does not matter he/she is a Christian, Muslim, or Hindu or Jain.

But even a quite a great percentage of Hindus and espe Hindu women can not appreciate Vedas and Manu's BS!

Show me one person who came from so called scheduled caste could appreciate Manu's justification!

DO NOT TALK NONSENSE! :twisted:

So Say you! There are lots of people who come to this forum and get tired of ur tamil supremo threads..Do you want to keeep a count on them? Tami is a language and hence needs to be kept a language. It should not be used as a means to identify ur own social group within a country thereby causing disunity among masses. Tamil is a subset of Dravidian. It should not be made the other way around.

[stranger]

There are lots of people who come to this forum and get tired of ur tamil supremo threads..Do you want to keeep a count on them?

We know how to keep this forum alive. You, go mind your business!


Tami is a language and hence needs to be kept a language.

And you claim yourself as Tamil???

You are telling me how much I should love my language???

Who the hell are YOU???!!

Are you going to suggest me to learn Hindi and talk to my mom in HIndi, next??? :hammer:

What a clown!!!! :shock:

[indian224080]

[quote]
We know how to keep this forum alive. You, go mind your business!


There you go!!!!


And you claim yourself as Tamil???

Yes Ofcourse i am tamil. In what way my statement gave u an idea that i am not tamil.



You are telling me how much I should love my language???

Who the hell are YOU???!!


Did I tell u in any way? U have some problems in comprehending i guess.



Are you going to suggest me to learn Hindi and talk to my mom in HIndi, next??? :hammer:


Did I?I am just saying by "Super" claiming urself as tamil u r just alienating urself from the rest of the masses. There is no difference between a Tamil fanatic and a politician who uses tamil to get votes.... Beware!!!!

[Idiappam]

Indianxxx is not a Tamil -- the right profile of him should be 'another anti-Tamil Vedic Stooge'!

I think enough of this! This thread can be trashed!

[SRS]

Thamiz is a language which can be loved by any person and it does not matter he/she is a Christian, Muslim, or Hindu or Jain.

This is not a Tamil thread. Indian history does not automatically mean Tamil history. Your pathetic attempts to turn the whole forum into a Dravidian garbage dump will never work.


But even a quite a great percentage of Hindus and espe Hindu women can not appreciate Vedas and Manu's BS!

Show me one person who came from so called scheduled caste could appreciate Manu's justification!

What does it matter if a backwards such as yourself cannot comprehend the greatness of Manu & Vedas? The best minds, East and West, have voiced a different opinion. No one cares what you backwards from Anna U think. Get it?

[stranger]

Hey Idiot!

First of all you are NOT an INdian so SHUT UP!!!

[Idiappam]

SRS blabbered:
What does it matter if a backwards such as yourself cannot comprehend the greatness of Manu & Vedas? The best minds, East and West, have voiced a different opinion. No one cares what you backwards from Anna U think. Get it?

Manu and Vedas are great??? They are trash.. you want me to post some anti-human text form them SRS.. I warn you, don't try the bloody stunts that Tony tried...

Anna U eh?? So what?

Comming Up with trash from Vedas and Manu - commiting crimes against humanities.. Watch it, you SRS! Going to flood this thread with vedic filth!

[SRS]

Hey Idiot!

First of all you are NOT an INdian so SHUT UP!!!

UKW a.k.a Ramadoss a.k.a Stranger is now an expert on the nationality of others? Dear nationality expert, please explain what methods you used to reach your conclusions:King James, Koran, or Gushboo film. :lol:

[SRS]

Manu and Vedas are great??? They are trash.. you want me to post some anti-human text form them SRS.. I warn you, don't try the bloody stunts that Tony tried...

Anna U eh?? So what?

Comming Up with trash from Vedas and Manu - commiting crimes against humanities.. Watch it, you SRS! Going to flood this thread with vedic filth!

All your pathetic attempts to get the thread closed have failed. Like I said, this is an INDIAN forum, not a TAMIL forum.

[Surya]

All your pathetic attempts to get the thread closed have failed. Like I said, this is an INDIAN forum, not a TAMIL forum.

Ppl have a very hard time understanding that! :?


UKW a.k.a Ramadoss a.k.a Stranger is now an expert on the nationality of others? Dear nationality expert, please explain what methods you used to reach your conclusions!

U don't actually ASK them these questions! Then they don't show up for a couple of days! I'm yet to see the criteria of Idiappam's Claim about me being an Anti-Tamil! :lol: Everytime I ask him this, he tries to wriggle his way out of it, or just changes the subject! :lol:

[Idiappam]

Two of you - Surya and SRS - been posting nothing but insults on hubbers - way to go to see this thread closed..

Keep going.. After all this thread contains just lies copied and pasted from various sites and your useless defence of them, with insults when replied.

No substance in this thread.. Close it! Waste of space!

[bis_mala]

Two of you - Surya and SRS - been posting nothing but insults on hubbers - way to go to see this thread closed..

Keep going.. After all this thread contains just lies copied and pasted from various sites and your useless defence of them, with insults when replied.

No substance in this thread.. Close it! Waste of space!



Idiappam wrote:
Your posts?? They are all about the same, exhibiting your anti-Tamil, Vedic Propagandist sentiments. - I read one, I read all!

"indian224080" wrote: haa haa so typical of a Dravid!

Please see my post in the Maths thread in this same section.

[karuvaadu]

Manu and Vedas are great??? They are trash.. you want me to post some anti-human text form them SRS.. I warn you, don't try the bloody stunts that Tony tried...

Anna U eh?? So what?

Comming Up with trash from Vedas and Manu - commiting crimes against humanities.. Watch it, you SRS! Going to flood this thread with vedic filth!

All your pathetic attempts to get the thread closed have failed. Like I said, this is an INDIAN forum, not a TAMIL forum.

You mean Vedic Forum for sure! Wait and see there will be a padlock for this thread sooner or later. Not only for this thread also for the Vedic Mathematics thread! :lol:

[SRS]

"Every morning, in complete accordance with their Vedic heritage , the Quraysh and other Meccan tribes would pay reverential homage to the sun, moon, planets, stars and all the heavenly bodies that made up the visible universe. The Kaaba temple, which was the heart of Mecca was their biggest testament to astral worship. It was a shrine devoted to the Sun, Moon, Planets and Galaxies. Besides the shrines of Shams (Surya or Sun), Manat (SoManath or Moon), Uzza (Oorja, Shakti as Venus), Dharrih (Suryoday or rising sun), etc. There were many shrines dedicated to stars and constellations such as the Krittikas (the Pleaides). There were 24 doorways to the temple, these doorways represented the 24 hours of the day. The 360 shrines represented the days of the year and each image was made to symbolically represent the ruling planet, in astrological terms. The seven circambulations (parikrama) symbolized the orbiting of the seven major planets. The first three circuits were done fast and the remaining four slowly, in exact imitation of the planetary movements around the sun.

This beautiful Vedic temple was a cosmological representation of the visible natural universe. It was made in the same tradition of ancient Indian temples such as Someshwar (Somnath), in Prabhas Patan, Gujarat, which also contained 360 shrines and was built by the Moon God SoManath, (Manat to the Arabs).

One of the shrines in the Kaaba was also dedicated to the Hindu Creator God, Brahma."

[SRS]

All: please post more information regarding the Vedic origins of the Kabaa. Very fascinating!

[Ronnie The Dutch]

"Every morning,... Hindu Creator God, Brahma."

Should I wonder why they then gave up their vedic believe? I am also not surprised why they hate stars and stripes :lol: What kind of language they spoke to the vedic idols? :roll:

[indian224080]

Some information that i found on the Site related to the temple for Lord Brahma.

One of the shrines in the Kaaba was also dedicated to the Hindu Creator God, Brahma, which is why the illiterate Prophet of Islam claimed it was dedicated to Abraham. The word "Abraham" is none other than a malpronounciation of the word Brahma This can be clearly proven if one investigates the root meanings of both words.

Abraham is said to be one of the oldest Semitic Prophets.His name is supposed to be derived from the two Semitic words "Ab" meaning "Father" and "Raam/Raham" meaning "of the exalted", In the book of Genesis, Abraham simply means "Multitude". The word Abraham is derived from the Sanskrit word "Brahma". The root of Brahma is "Brah"which means -"to grow or multiply in number". In addition Lord Brahma, the Creator God of Hinduism is said to be the Father of all Men and Exalted of all the Gods, for it is from him that all beings were generated. Thus again we come to the meaning "Exalted Father". This is a clear pointer to the fact that Abraham is none other than the heavenly father Brahma .

In fact the Abraham story about the origin of the Kaaba was a fabrication invented by the Prophet, after he had quarreled with the Jews of Medinah. He took an ancient Jewish legend about the heavenly and earthly Jerusalem and conveniently twisted it into a false myth about Abraham. Respected Jewish scholars such as Snouck Hurgronje and Aloys Sprenger agree that the association of Abraham with the Kaaba was Muhammad's personal invention and it served as a means to liberate Islam from Judaism. Sprenger comments:" By this lie Muhammad gave to Islam all that man needs and which differentiates religion from philosophy: a nationality, ceremonies, historical memories, mysteries, an assurance of entering heaven, all the while deceiving his own conscience and those of others."

[indian224080]

See Attached Picture as well friends.

1) The Temple of Dhu-l-Khalasa:
This temple was dedicated to Lord Shiva, Dhu-L-Khalasa stood for "The One of Kailash". It was situated in Yemen and called "Al Kaba Al Yamaniya" meaning the Yemeni equivalent of the Meccan Kaaba. The Prophet's helper Jarir set out with a force of 150 cavalrymen from the Ahmas Tribe. In Jarir's words: " We dismantled it and burnt it to the ground and killed whoever was present there." Jarir also sent a message to Muhammad saying " By Allah, I did not leave that place till it was like a scabby camel!". Plenty of valuables and rare perfumes were robbed. The beautiful statue of Dhu-L-Khalasa (Shiva), a white piece of marble in which a crown was carved, was used as the stepping stone under the mosque at Tabala.

2)The Temples of Fils & Ruda in Tai:
Ali Bint Abi Talib went to the Temple of Fils to destroy it by order of Muhammad. He took 200 horsemen with him. Ali tortured and murdered many people present there, and then enslaved the survivors. This Temple stood on Mount Aja' ("Aja" is another name for Brahma) and contained images of the Mother Goddess. Ali obtained two swords from the temple, one named Rasub and another called Makhzam, both swords were extremely valuable. The Temple of Ruda was looted & destroyed in the same manner.It was dedicated to Lord Rudra (Shiva) and contained a beautiful jet black Shivling. The Shivling was smashed into its base and the temple razed.

3) The Temple of Al-Uzza of Banu Sulaim: The leader of the Tribe of Banu Sulaim was a treacherous man who was bought out by Muhammad. The Prophet gave him a huge estate to bribe him.Ghadi Bint Abd Al Uzza thus went to the Temple of Al-Uzza belonging to his tribe and smashed the image to pieces in front of his horrified Tribespeople. All the protesters were killed on the spot.

4) The Temple of Uzra:
The Tribe of Banu Uzra had a Temple for their God Uzra. Uzra is derived from the Sanskrit word "Ujras" which means "the month of Kartik". Since we know that Lord Shiva's son Kartikkeya was worshipped in the Kaaba, it is plausible to assume that this Temple was dedicated to none other than Kartikkeya . The Priests of this Temple turned out to be quite intelligent, They sent a group to the Prophet & appealed to his Ego by saying that the idol of Uzra had spoken & declared Muhammad to be the True Prophet. Immediately Muhammad said " This looks to be a believing Jinn". In this way the Banu Uzra ensured their survival. There is no indication of whether this particular Temple survived or not.


http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/images/archives/revelation/oldimages/uzzashiv.jpg

[indian224080]

Final Remains of a Temple in Madain Saleh

http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/images/archives/revelation/oldimages/madsal.jpg

[indian224080]

Please look at the picture...

Huge Kalash Atop a Temple in Ad Deir

http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/images/archives/revelation/oldimages/kalashp.jpg

[indian224080]

The Kaaba was dedicated to Al-lat and Al-Uzza both of which are forms of the Mother Goddess Shakti. The structure of the temple attested to the fact that it was based on the Tantric iconography of Devi Durga . The verses as written in the Devi-Mahatmya texts of the Markandeya Purana describe the formation of her physical body and iconographical attributes:

Born out of the bodies of all the Gods, that unique efflugence, combined into a mass of light, took the form of a woman, pervading the triple worlds with its lustre. In that efflugence,
the light of Shiva formed the face. The Tresses were formed from the light of Yama and the arms from the light of Vishnu Bhagwan

The two breasts were formed from the moon's (Somanath's) light, the waist from the light of Indra, the legs and thighs from the light of Varun, and hips from the light of the Earth (Bhoodev)

The feet from the light of Brahma
and the toes from Surya's (sun) light,
the fingers of the hand from the light of the Vasus(the children of Ganga)
and the nose from the light of Kuber .

The teeth were formed from the light of Prajapati, the lord of beings; likewise the Triad of her eyes was born from the Light of Agni (fire). The eyebrows from the two Sandhyas (sunrise and sunset) ; the ears from the light of the wind(Vayu). From the lights of other gods as well, the auspicious goddess was born.

Projecting an overwhelming omnipotence the three eyed goddess adorned with the crescent moon with her eighteen arms each holding auspicious weapons, emblems, jewels and other gifts offered by individual gods, emerged. With her pulsating body of golden color shining with the splendour of a thousand suns, standing erect on her lion vehicle (vahana) and displaying her triumph over the dark forces (shown in the form of a demon under her feet), she stands as the most spectacular personification of cosmic energy.

[indian224080]

The List of Idols destroyed in Kaaba have been taken from the Museum of Archeological Research, Egypt.

Among the 360 idols which surrounded the main shrine of the destroyed Kaaba were 16 magnificient ones that bordered the sanctum sanctorium. We know the names of the gods that inhabited these 16 important shrines. Every single one of these deities matches the Devi-Mahatmya's textual description of Devi Durga:-

Suwa which apparently stood for Lord Shiva

Ayam which stood for Lord Yama
Bag which stood for Bhagwan Shri Vishnu
Manat which stood for Somnath (Moon)

Sakiah which stood for Sakra (another name for Indra)

Al-Debaran which stood for Dev-Varun
Obodes which stood for Bhoodev (Earth)

Awal (first) which stood for Brahma

Shems which stood for Surya (Sun)

Wajj (pronounced "Vazz") which stood for the Vasus who were the seven sons of Ganga (corrupted to Zamza in the form of the ZamZam spring in the Kaaba)

Kaber which stood for Kuber

Aja which stood for Prajapati

Makha which stood for Agni (fire) (in Sanskrit Makha means a fire-sacrifice (Yagna), the city of Mecca got its name because of the fact that it was the site of the fire sacrifice)

Sunrise and

Sunset, called the two Auses which stood for the two Sandhyas (probably taken from Ushas)

Ha'uw which stood for Vayu (the wind)

[indian224080]

The architectural elements of the Kaaba Temple consisted of a square block of black stone, crested by a crescent and sphere, which is encircled by 360 shrines. This is an exact representation of the Tantric Cit-kunda Yantra. Each element of the Yantra was represented in the Kaaba complex. The circle or Bindu symbolizes Shakti , it is embraced by the crescent or Shishu which symbolizes Shiva. This divine marriage shows the pure pre-creative stage of evolution. The beginning of creation is an omnipotent all-pervading cosmic principle - Shiva embracing his potential power -Shakti . Thus the crescent and moon symbol is the sign of the Self, which is aware of its inherent dynamic power. The four points of the square stone represent the four aspects of one's psyche: the pure self (atman), the inner self (antaratman), the cognizant self (jananatman) and the supreme self (paramatman) . The circle around these symbols represents both the wheel of time (the Vedic year consisted of 360 days) as well as the astronomical map of the universe and its 360 major heavenly bodies. The Kaaba in its symbolism therefore represented all the cosmic principles of the universe. It is the height of absurdity to call proponents of a culture that was capable of producing monuments such as these, as "superstitous polytheists and uncivilized pagans". The fact is that the Prophet of Islam destroyed a culture that was vastly superior in all scientific, spiritual, humanistic and symbolic respects, to his brand of theocracy. Ironically the word "Pagan" which has come to mean animalistic, has its very roots in the malpronounciation of the word "Bhagwan" (Divine God).

http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/images/archives/revelation/oldimages/maktantr.jpg
There is even more evidence that clearly suggests the conclusion that the Arabs used to worship different forms of the Divine Couple, Shiva-Shakti in many forms. Archaeological remnants of the Nabataeans who inhabited Arabia in the Pre-Islamic era, demonstrate that the chief deities were Dhu-Shara and Al-Uzza. As we already know Uzza was none other than Oorja or Shakti and since Du-Shara was her husband, it is quite logical to conclude that Du-Shara is a corruption of "Deveshwar" which is a Sanskrit synonym for Lord Shiva . Herodotus in his Histories also says of the Arabs " They deem no other to be gods save Dionysus and Heavenly Aphrodite ... they call Dionysus Orotalt and Aphrodite Alilat" (Negev 101). Alilat was again the corrupted version of Allat who as we know represented Alla (Durga). Dionysus her husband has all the traits of Shiva as well. Lord Shiva was known to have intoxicated followers called "Ganas". He was also known as "Pashupati" (lord of the beasts). He is always depicted wearing a Tiger Skin. The greatest clue to the Shaivite origin of Dionysus lies in the undeniable title of "fertility god". Just as the Shivling represents the creative energy, so too were phallic symbols made to represent Dionysus, the fertility God. Another clue that supports this conclusion is the fact that Du-Shara is represented as being surrounded by dolphins, as is Dionysus. It is quite plausible to suggest that Du-Shara and Dionysus were names for Lord Shiva and that their spouses Al-Uzza and Al-lat respectively, were names for Shakti.

Astrological references in the Vishnu Puran describe the shape of space in the following way:

"The heavenly form of the mighty Lord is made of stars and shaped like a dolphin with Dhruva (the Pole Star) in its tail. This dolphin shaped constellation which is the pathway of the stars' fixed abodes has its hub in the heart of the Lord. The sun, moon, stars and nakshatras together with the planets are bound to Dhruva in the tail of the Dolphin by fetters made up of a series of winds".

It is quite obvious that the Dolphin shaped constellation which represents the Hindu concept of the cosmos is the basis for Nabatean representations of dolphins in their sacred temples. They represented Du-Shara wielding a trident along with his consort Al-Uzza seated on a lion, surrounded by dolphins. The entire divine scene thus symbolized Shiva-Shakti and the shape of the spatial universe as envisioned by Vedic culture..

http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/images/archives/revelation/oldimages/dionysus.jpg

[indian224080]

Dhruva himself was venerated in many Arab temples. He was worshipped as Duar in the Kaaba complex, where many other astronomical deities were revered. The Navagrahas or nine planets of Hindu cosmology each had an individual shrine dedicated to them in the Kaaba. We know the Arabic names for at least five of them.
Sanskrit Arabic English
Budh Wad Mercury
Surya Shems Sun
Somanath Manat Moon
Shani Al-Dsaizan Saturn
Shukra Al-Sharak Venus


The parallels are far too numerous to overlook. The Vedic theme that underlies the Kaaba and many Arabic temples, is apparent, when we add up all these fragments of evidence and consider them as a whole.


The stories that these ruins whisper have been ignored for centuries, it is time that they too were heard and given their rightful place in the history of Vedic civilization and the world.

[indian224080]

More to come friends. Lets take this thread in the right direction.

References:

The Works "The Life & times of Muhammad" by Sir John Glubb, "Mohammed" by Anne Carter, "Yantra, the Tantric symbol of Cosmic Unity" by Madhu Khanna, "Deities and Dolphins by Nelson Glueck, "Classical Hindu Mythology" by Dimmitt and Buitenen, and "Hindu Temples: What Happened to Them? - Volume 2" by Sita Ram Goel have been used to compose this article.

[goodsense]

"UKW a.k.a Ramadoss a.k.a Stranger ..."

SRS, you are not the only one who knew this. I knew it for sometime now. Many of us are hiding here, but for different reasons. However, I don't think hiding is so easy. Can we really change our styles 8-)

[Ronnie The Dutch]

Abraham is said to be one of the oldest Semitic Prophets.His name is supposed to be derived from the two Semitic words "Ab" meaning "Father" and "Raam/Raham" meaning "of the exalted", In the book of Genesis, Abraham simply means "Multitude". The word Abraham is derived from the Sanskrit word "Brahma". The root of Brahma is "Brah"which means -"to grow or multiply in number". In addition Lord Brahma, the Creator God of Hinduism is said to be the Father of all Men and Exalted of all the Gods, for it is from him that all beings were generated. Thus again we come to the meaning "Exalted Father". This is a clear pointer to the fact that Abraham is none other than the heavenly father Brahma .


Very good! Vedic Morons are Jews? Jews are Vedic Hindus?

SRS should start to rethink, in case of he never thought he should start to think!

And Indian XXX will for sure find a way to connect scarabeus with naga and an ibis with a peacock!

Which vedic god represents Poseidon (Neptun) the water god?

[Ronnie The Dutch]

Ans Sarah, the wife of Abraham is for sure Saraswathi you would argue Indian XXX, isn't it? Who was Isaac then? I don't mean Newton here!

[Uppuma]

Friends,

WE see lot and lot of proofs of Vedic Past of Arabia, when we see Latin and Greek having like Tamil have many Loan WORDS from Sanskrit, that Vedas have Spread all over the World.

Many a Bible Tales have its Original Inspiration from Indian Classics.

But blindly dating it in the past is History, today Biblical Scholars date torah to only 300BCE.

Why bring Dravidian meaningless angles; all spread myths of Clergical Indologists.

We need lot more analysis. fsg/bismala do not waste our time.

[Idiappam]

Friends --

When uppuma says 'we need more analysis' he means 'we need more liars'.

[bis_mala]

Friends,

WE see lot and lot of proofs of Vedic Past of Arabia, when we see Latin and Greek having like Tamil have many Loan WORDS from Sanskrit, that Vedas have Spread all over the World.

Many a Bible Tales have its Original Inspiration from Indian Classics.

But blindly dating it in the past is History, today Biblical Scholars date torah to only 300BCE.

Why bring Dravidian meaningless angles; all spread myths of Clergical Indologists.

We need lot more analysis. fsg/bismala do not waste our time.

Dear Uppu, a BrahmaNa is prohibited from crossing the seas and going to foreign countries. Other categories did not know the Vedas; they were then not supposed to learn the Vedas. So can you clarify who and who went to Arabia and how they disseminated the Vedas there? In which year did this happen? Who received the visitors? Any reference in Sanskrit books that people like uppumas were sent there to preach?
Please give more details; otherwise you are just wasting your own time.
We cannot waste it for you!!

[Sandeep]

The sea logic doesnot hold since Arabia and India are connect over land.

Though I am also unconvinced as to how this relation existed unless ofcource the popular theory *** (restricted in this hub) is true.

Islam itself says that there was idol worship in Arabia, and hence there are strong statements against it in Islam. (Satan is the only entity represented in Islam by idol - The 3 stones at meena where stone throughing is done during Haj).

But how far where they related to Hinduism or more specifically Bhrahmanical branch of it.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:2b8608179e]// The sea logic doesnot hold since Arabia and India are connect over land //

Dear Uppuma

True that there is land connection. If a group of Vedic intellectuals used the overland route, they must have crossed other countries. Any ref. in the literature of these countries of the traverse of these intellectuals to Arabia? Did the group preach in the countries in between? If not why did they go straight to Arabia without preaching in these countries in between?

If our Uppuma makes further research and tells us more, he would not be wasting his time. It will be well spent.

BASICALLY, you must prove that the idols were Vedic! Mohammad and his men broke idols - not at all disputed. The followers even broke the Buddha statue in Afghanistan recently; you need not provide evidence for idol-breakings.

When did Vedas embrace idol worship? Also give us the timeline and the references in the Vedas.


¾¢Õ ¯ô¨ÀÂÕìÌ ¿ýÈ¢!![/tscii:2b8608179e]

[bis_mala]

Sanskrit Arabic English
Budh Wad Mercury
Surya Shems Sun
Somanath Manat Moon
Shani Al-Dsaizan Saturn
Shukra Al-Sharak Venus


Dear Uppuma, check with the Arabic linguists whether they say these are foreign words from skrt!

[Ronnie The Dutch]

The sea logic doesnot hold since Arabia and India are connect over land.



As someone from Kerala, you should know it better about the Arabs and Kerala and the golf of Mannar!

When the Arabs came to India they did not take the land route! Even Srilankans had contacts with Romans! And that was for sure preIslamic period!

[Ronnie The Dutch]

Yes! I have a very good explanation that Saraswathi came from Sarah after losing my sleep last night.

Sarah's wadi --- a river that has no water if there is no rain ---> Saraswathi

If Abraham is Brahma then Sarah is Saraswathi. Thus vedic faith is from Jewism! Very clear as water.

Dear Mala and FSG,
what would you say?

[bis_mala]

Yes! I have a very good explanation that Saraswathi came from Sarah after losing my sleep last night.

Sarah's wadi --- a river that has no water if there is no rain ---> Saraswathi

If Abraham is Brahma then Sarah is Saraswathi. Thus vedic faith is from Jewism! Very clear as water.

Dear Mala and FSG,
what would you say?
If our uppuma and his gang are not careful, to the peril of their beloved topic, they may well end up proving just the opposite of that which they intend. As it is now, I am beginning to get confirmed in mind that Abe Dubois might well have been right when he said in his book that Brahma came from Abraham. Some time ago, I wrote that Brahma came from Tamil root piRa, rightly in my view disregarding the phonemes p and b. Slater in his book said that Brahma went from Egypt to North India. I am now thinking that the verbal stem piRa travelled in two directions; one route: from TN to North; another from TN to ME.

Sara Wady - it rhymes with Irrawaddy, - may after all have come from Sarah. Arabic is a classical language also and had connections with Aramaic which was used in N.India before DevaNagari (or Thiivu Nagar ezuththu from Lanka ) . Sanskrit swallowed words from Aramaic too and Mr. uppu will be left to slog to disprove it.

Let them lose sleep and strain their nerves to prove their proposition. We just watch the show. It's fun to see them slog right?

[indian224080]

Yes! I have a very good explanation that Saraswathi came from Sarah after losing my sleep last night.

Sarah's wadi --- a river that has no water if there is no rain ---> Saraswathi

If Abraham is Brahma then Sarah is Saraswathi. Thus vedic faith is from Jewism! Very clear as water.

Dear Mala and FSG,
what would you say?
If our uppuma and his gang are not careful, to the peril of their beloved topic, they may well end up proving just the opposite of that which they intend. As it is now, I am beginning to get confirmed in mind that Abe Dubois might well have been right when he said in his book that Brahma came from Abraham. Some time ago, I wrote that Brahma came from Tamil root piRa, rightly in my view disregarding the phonemes p and b. Slater in his book said that Brahma went from Egypt to North India. I am now thinking that the verbal stem piRa travelled in two directions; one route: from TN to North; another from TN to ME.

Sara Wady - it rhymes with Irrawaddy, - may after all have come from Sarah. Arabic is a classical language also and had connections with Aramaic which was used in N.India before DevaNagari (or Thiivu Nagar ezuththu from Lanka ) . Sanskrit swallowed words from Aramaic too and Mr. uppu will be left to slog to disprove it.

Let them lose sleep and strain their nerves to prove their proposition. We just watch the show. It's fun to see them slog right?

Actually its the reverse. I find fun in watching u and other guys obtain tamil roots with so much difficulty. But Kudos to ur imagination!!!. We need such people.

[abbydoss1969]

It seems in the tamil brahmin conference, writer Sujatha has publicly accepted the view: " that all human beings originated from Africa , so brahmins cannot be called invaders or Aryans"

Acc to this theory , based on DNA markers, which was telecast of National Geographic channel, 50,000 years ago human beings migrated to southindia to Australia

The second migration which took place 15, 000 years later, the African people came to central Asia from where they migrated to India , other European countries.

If that is the case,the whole topic is redundant :!:

I'll post the links later

[indian224080]

The Sair-ul-Okul
--------------------------------

"Aya muwarekal araj yushaiya noha minar HIND-e Wa aradakallaha manyonaifail jikaratun"

"Oh the divine land of HIND (India) (how) very blessed art thou! Because thou art the chosen of God blessed with knowledge"

"Wahalatijali Yatun ainana sahabi akha-atun jikra Wahajayhi yonajjalur -rasu minal HINDATUN "

"That celestial knowledge which like four lighthouses shone in such brilliance - through the (utterances of) Indian sages in fourfold abundance."

"Yakuloonallaha ya ahal araf alameen kullahum Fattabe-u jikaratul VEDA bukkun malam yonajjaylatun"

"God enjoins on all humans, follow with hands down The path the Vedas with his divine precept lay down."

"Wahowa alamus SAMA wal YAJUR minallahay Tanajeelan Fa-e-noma ya akhigo mutiabay-an Yobassheriyona jatun"

"Bursting with (Divine) knowledge are SAM & YAJUR bestowed on creation, Hence brothers respect and follow the Vedas, guides to salvation"

"Wa-isa nain huma RIG ATHAR nasayhin Ka-a-Khuwatun Wa asant Ala-udan wabowa masha -e-ratun"

"Two others, the Rig and Athar teach us fraternity, Sheltering under their lustre dispels darkness till eternity"

[indian224080]

Page-235 of Sair-ul-Okul


Kafavomal fikra min ulumin Tab asayru
Kaluwan amataul Hawa was Tajakhru
We Tajakhayroba udan Kalalwade-E Liboawa
Walukayanay jatally, hay Yauma Tab asayru
Wa Abalolha ajabu armeeman MAHADEVA
Manojail ilamuddin minhum wa sayattaru
Wa Sahabi Kay-yam feema-Kamil MINDAY Yauman
Wa Yakulum no latabahan foeennak Tawjjaru
Massayaray akhalakan hasanan Kullahum
Najumum aja- at Summa gabul HINDU



which translates as:



The man who may spend his life in sin
and irreligion or waste it in lechery and wrath
If at least he relent and return to
righteousness can he be saved?
If but once he worship Mahadeva with a pure
heart, he will attain the ultimate in spirituality.
Oh Lord Shiva exchange my entire life for but
a day's sojourn in India where one attains salvation.
But one pilgrimage there secures for one all
merit and company of the truly great.

[Idiappam]

IndianXXX wrote:
Actually its the reverse. I find fun in watching u and other guys obtain tamil roots with so much difficulty. But Kudos to ur imagination!!!. We need such people.

It is not with difficulty we are showing roots - And we show it right down to its mono-syllables. You can't get anywhere near trying to show roots in your beloved Sanskrit - with its heavy borrowing from Tamil. So keep your imagination going just on 'insults'!

[KLAN]

A very interesting segment.
As member of the vast Indian Diaspora, and having never visited India I have always been intrigued by the land, people and culture. If there is one thing I have noticed during the many years of observation is that (unfortunately) the people who conduct the most historical research, worldwide are seemingly from the West or are of European descent. It is no accident then, that the prodominant view of the non European ancient world is invariably the view of Western researchers. This does not mean that I think these Western researchers are wrong! However I feel that irrespective of how much they try to convey the feeling that they are following scientific methods, they cannot but be influenced by their Judio-Christian values and heritage. Thus you will traditionally see their work as relating back to the pre eminance they place on Eurocentric views (culture & history). You need not go any further to see this view than visit any National Geographic site and see their preoccupation with things "Ancient Egyptian". There must be numerous articles covering Ancient Egypt! This is so because, Westerners see ancient Egypt (rightly or wrongly) as the first European success story, particularly with the rise of the Greek Pharoahs (Ptolomeys), but seeming conveniently to forget the Black Pharoahs of Upper Egypt! I guess this normal as we are all human and have a egocentric view of the world.

Recently many Christian scholars have discounted the story of the Apostle Thomas going to India during the early Christian era and introducing Christianity because "it was not mentioned in the Gospels...". Well the Gospels don't mention lots of things and it has only been deduced now that there were many Gospels written but only the acceptable ones made into the Christian texts! Once again even in "Gods works" humans take a view that they and only they can take a "high road".

It would great if someone in India could conduct a study on the History of Indian Culture and its influences during ancient time.

Regards KLAN

[bis_mala]

[tscii:877750474e]
The Sair-ul-Okul
--------------------------------

"Aya muwarekal araj yushaiya noha minar HIND-e Wa aradakallaha manyonaifail jikaratun"

"Oh the divine land of HIND (India) (how) very blessed art thou! Because thou art the chosen of God blessed with knowledge"

"Wahalatijali Yatun ainana sahabi akha-atun jikra Wahajayhi yonajjalur -rasu minal HINDATUN "

"That celestial knowledge which like four lighthouses shone in such brilliance - through the (utterances of) Indian sages in fourfold abundance."

"Yakuloonallaha ya ahal araf alameen kullahum Fattabe-u jikaratul VEDA bukkun malam yonajjaylatun"

"God enjoins on all humans, follow with hands down The path the Vedas with his divine precept lay down."

"Wahowa alamus SAMA wal YAJUR minallahay Tanajeelan Fa-e-noma ya akhigo mutiabay-an Yobassheriyona jatun"

"Bursting with (Divine) knowledge are SAM & YAJUR bestowed on creation, Hence brothers respect and follow the Vedas, guides to salvation"

"Wa-isa nain huma RIG ATHAR nasayhin Ka-a-Khuwatun Wa asant Ala-udan wabowa masha -e-ratun"

"Two others, the Rig and Athar teach us fraternity, Sheltering under their lustre dispels darkness till eternity"

Well, I am prepared to grant for myself that once upon a time, Arabia was following a mode of worship, which was in many respects analogous to ours even if it were not convincingly Vedic. But it is all like a girl who has divorced you and gone with another man. , the other man being Islam. She is not having any fond memories of you but you are. Do not indulge in it too much. and become emotionally unstable, resulting in some altercation with the Saudi Arabian next to you.

Islamists do not recognise Hinduism as a religion. According to some there are only 3 valid religions: Islam, Christianity with some errors and Judaism with some errors which are grave enough but tolerable in certain respects. Mohd said some thing like: "Compare and the error stands out clearly.....! (in other religions)".

When we talk of Indian influence in foreign countries, which can be called "Hindu influence", it was certainly from the South. The Indian influence from the North was Buddhist. Asoka's missionary went as far as Alexandria to the West and China and Japan etc in the East, which are still sympathetic to Indian culture. It is said that the Malaysian Govt has allowed quite a number of temples to be built; recently some large ones were built near Kuala Lumpur, Klang and Malacca in Malaysia. The Indonesian govt surprisingly allowed a new temple in Batam, Indonesia upon the representation of Bali Hindus. We should not damage this new understanding. Any Indian influence there is, these countries would want to refer to such influence as “cultural and linguistic” and not religious. . You should proceed under the nomenclature of “culture and history” and not under religion.

[/tscii:877750474e]

[Sandeep]

The sea logic doesnot hold since Arabia and India are connect over land.



As someone from Kerala, you should know it better about the Arabs and Kerala and the golf of Mannar!

When the Arabs came to India they did not take the land route! Even Srilankans had contacts with Romans! And that was for sure preIslamic period!

Your are speaking about the trade route between India and Southern Arabia (which was inhabited by a group called Sabaeans).

The Arabian peninsula has 2 distinct climactic and geographical zones. These two regions, the south and the north, were homes to two entirely separate Semitic peoples: the Sabaeans in the south and the Arabs in the north.

Southern Arabia is the area along the coast of the Arabian Sea that gets regular rain. This is the Arabia of our mythology, the Arabia of wealth, tropical plants, cities. The four most powerful city-states of the south were Saba', Hadramawt, Qataban, and Ma'in

Northern Arabia is one of the most inhospitable places on earth. The most forbidding part of northern Arabia is the expanse of sand desert on the eastern side (Beyond which India lies).

The Arabs, lived on two major two trade routes: one was the ocean-trading route between Africa and India. The harbors of the southwest were centers of commerce with these two continents and the luxury items, such as spices, imported from these countries.

But the Sabaean region also lay at the southern terminus of land-based trade routes up and down the coast of the Arabian peninsula. This latter trade route had tremendous consequences for the Arabs in the north and the subsequent history of Islam. For all along this trade route grew major trading cities. One such Arabian city was Mecca. Sedentary Arabs were had settled the oases that surround the periphery of the Arabian desert. The settlements also lay on the trade route that connected Africa and India with the Mediterranean world through southern Arabia. The power and prosperity of the sedentary Arabs largely derived from their position as intermediaries in this trade.

In short there is historic evidence to a very vibrant and influencial trade route from Northern India to Arabia as well as the sea route between southern India and Arabia. But did this lead to religious influence is unknown. I dont think the brahmins would have travelled or preached their religion (they didnt even teach their own countrymen). But sure the traders could have had a great influence on the believes of the Arabs.

[Uppuma]

Friends,
Klan wrote:

Recently many Christian scholars have discounted the story of the Apostle Thomas going to India during the early Christian era and introducing Christianity because "it was not mentioned in the Gospels...". Well the Gospels don't mention lots of things and it has only been deduced now that there were many Gospels written but only the acceptable ones made into the Christian texts! Once again even in "Gods works" humans take a view that they and only they can take a "high road"

It is totally false. Thomas was supposed to have landed in KERALA, kODUNGALLORE, AND established 7and half churches in Seashore Towns.

ALL THis towns as per Archeology was below Sea till 8th Century CE.

Jesus the man claimed to have come only for Jews and called Non JEWS As Dogs and Pigs. Why should his Disciples come to Pagan land.
Uppuma

[bis_mala]

IndianXXX wrote:
Actually its the reverse. I find fun in watching u and other guys obtain tamil roots with so much difficulty. But Kudos to ur imagination!!!. We need such people.

It is not with difficulty we are showing roots - And we show it right down to its mono-syllables. You can't get anywhere near trying to show roots in your beloved Sanskrit - with its heavy borrowing from Tamil. So keep your imagination going just on 'insults'!


I think - in the various linguistic enquiry threads of this Hub, there have been sufficient references and analyses on roots of words. Most of the time I had to either repeat, synthesize, extend, explain etc., in giving the roots. Sometimes I had to summarize. At other times - choose between alternatives. There has been sufficient number of books on this topic of etymology too. There are also writers on other forums. The percentage of words that presented difficulty was negligible. I have also done research for others in linguistics. It is here done one, two or three words at a time. Not taxing at all, as this Vedic topic upon our Indianxxxx brother and uppaiyar. These two are struggling. like a failing swimmer in a pool of water!!
In fact, both would have had a happier life if some of us did not come in at all and query and comment!! We make the uppuma too hot for them.

[Uppuma]

Friends,

I sinserely regret our friend mala's bluffs; Mals is most Welcome; Any Linguistic Research needs Historic Usage.

If a word is not used in a period, then that is new to that Language, for example THolkappiyam to Sangam and Tirukural does not use Me- Nan, where as Silapathikaram hAS it.

Sangam and Tholkappiam does not have Siva or mention of Lingam worship anywhere.

Where as Rig Veda has Lingam Worship; doing Abishekam is there and they are repeated in Bible; Tamil uses almost 40-50% of words from SANSkrit , Prakrit and Pali is the Linguistic position.

Professor Hart articles in the net confirms it.

So instead of breaking words and assumed meanings donot prove it. Quiet a lot of Authors said by you are quoted and proved that you are a bluff. Please post meaningfully, and do not say assumed assumptions as facts.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:1d45cff567]="Uppuma"]Friends,

I sinserely regret our friend mala's bluffs; Mals is most Welcome; Any Linguistic Research needs Historic Usage.

If a word is not used in a period, then that is new to that Language, for example THolkappiyam to Sangam and Tirukural does not use Me- Nan, where as Silapathikaram hAS it.

Sangam and Tholkappiam does not have Siva or mention of Lingam worship anywhere.

Where as Rig Veda has Lingam Worship; doing Abishekam is there and they are repeated in Bible; Tamil uses almost 40-50% of words from SANSkrit , Prakrit and Pali is the Linguistic position.

Professor Hart articles in the net confirms it.

So instead of breaking words and assumed meanings donot prove it. Quiet a lot of Authors said by you are quoted and proved that you are a bluff. Please post meaningfully, and do not say assumed assumptions as facts.//


‚-Ä-‚ ¯ôÒÁ¡
«ó§¾¡ À⾡Àõ
¯ÁìÌ ±õ «Û¾¡Àõ.

do not struggle so much !! after all. skrt was spoken in heaven among the gods.
according to many saamiaars, all languages come from sankr which came from heaven.
[/tscii:1d45cff567]

[Ronnie The Dutch]

Why did Abraham went westward? Colombus too! And a lot of Indians nowadays too! Hmm, there lies the truth it seems.

From my point of view, as Mala suggested already, Brahman came from the west and made him the real big thing rather than Sivan.

Could Ishvaran come from Isaac?

[Ronnie The Dutch]

This is so because, Westerners see ancient Egypt (rightly or wrongly) as the first European success story, particularly with the rise of the Greek Pharoahs (Ptolomeys), but seeming conveniently to forget the Black Pharoahs of Upper Egypt! I guess this normal as we are all human and have a egocentric view of the world.


Yes, the old european archeologists were not able to think accept that there was an african civilisation neighbouring Egypt in todays Sudan - The Kushites. They falsely assumed that the africans were not able to build up a civilisation because of the white supremacy! The same supemacy rules within the Vedic opprtunists, from my point of view.

Even the Dutch thought this way and colonized and robbed the freedom of others. Pittily nothing can be made undone!

[abbydoss1969]

This is so because, Westerners see ancient Egypt (rightly or wrongly) as the first European success story, particularly with the rise of the Greek Pharoahs (Ptolomeys), but seeming conveniently to forget the Black Pharoahs of Upper Egypt! I guess this normal as we are all human and have a egocentric view of the world.


Yes, the old european archeologists were not able to think accept that there was an african civilisation neighbouring Egypt in todays Sudan - The Kushites. They falsely assumed that the africans were not able to build up a civilisation because of the white supremacy! The same supemacy rules within the Vedic opprtunists, from my point of view.

Even the Dutch thought this way and colonized and robbed the freedom of others. Pittily nothing can be made undone!

:clap: :clap:

[indian224080]

[tscii:9814693e6f]
The Sair-ul-Okul
--------------------------------

"Aya muwarekal araj yushaiya noha minar HIND-e Wa aradakallaha manyonaifail jikaratun"

"Oh the divine land of HIND (India) (how) very blessed art thou! Because thou art the chosen of God blessed with knowledge"

"Wahalatijali Yatun ainana sahabi akha-atun jikra Wahajayhi yonajjalur -rasu minal HINDATUN "

"That celestial knowledge which like four lighthouses shone in such brilliance - through the (utterances of) Indian sages in fourfold abundance."

"Yakuloonallaha ya ahal araf alameen kullahum Fattabe-u jikaratul VEDA bukkun malam yonajjaylatun"

"God enjoins on all humans, follow with hands down The path the Vedas with his divine precept lay down."

"Wahowa alamus SAMA wal YAJUR minallahay Tanajeelan Fa-e-noma ya akhigo mutiabay-an Yobassheriyona jatun"

"Bursting with (Divine) knowledge are SAM & YAJUR bestowed on creation, Hence brothers respect and follow the Vedas, guides to salvation"

"Wa-isa nain huma RIG ATHAR nasayhin Ka-a-Khuwatun Wa asant Ala-udan wabowa masha -e-ratun"

"Two others, the Rig and Athar teach us fraternity, Sheltering under their lustre dispels darkness till eternity"

Well, I am prepared to grant for myself that once upon a time, Arabia was following a mode of worship, which was in many respects analogous to ours even if it were not convincingly Vedic. But it is all like a girl who has divorced you and gone with another man. , the other man being Islam. She is not having any fond memories of you but you are. Do not indulge in it too much. and become emotionally unstable, resulting in some altercation with the Saudi Arabian next to you.

Islamists do not recognise Hinduism as a religion. According to some there are only 3 valid religions: Islam, Christianity with some errors and Judaism with some errors which are grave enough but tolerable in certain respects. Mohd said some thing like: "Compare and the error stands out clearly.....! (in other religions)".

When we talk of Indian influence in foreign countries, which can be called "Hindu influence", it was certainly from the South. The Indian influence from the North was Buddhist. Asoka's missionary went as far as Alexandria to the West and China and Japan etc in the East, which are still sympathetic to Indian culture. It is said that the Malaysian Govt has allowed quite a number of temples to be built; recently some large ones were built near Kuala Lumpur, Klang and Malacca in Malaysia. The Indonesian govt surprisingly allowed a new temple in Batam, Indonesia upon the representation of Bali Hindus. We should not damage this new understanding. Any Indian influence there is, these countries would want to refer to such influence as “cultural and linguistic” and not religious. . You should proceed under the nomenclature of “culture and history” and not under religion.

[/tscii:9814693e6f]

You know i find it amusing.

At first u said Arabian worship is Tamil. Then you said Arabian worship is not at all related to indian worship. Then you said Arabian Worship is analagous to "Our"(i donno what u mean by our) worship. Now you Say Yes its very much related except that its not Vedic and I am just guessing What will u say next?
Now in the next paragraph you say that Hindu influence is due to South India.

I am glad that u said South India instead of Saying Tamil. Haa haa now u talk abt Indonesian Culture and Influence But one thing i can say that go to any Indonesia/Bali Hindu religious forum or a website and see for urself whether its Vedic or Tamil ( :lol: ).

Man i love u guys!!!!!

[indian224080]

IndianXXX wrote:
Actually its the reverse. I find fun in watching u and other guys obtain tamil roots with so much difficulty. But Kudos to ur imagination!!!. We need such people.

It is not with difficulty we are showing roots - And we show it right down to its mono-syllables. You can't get anywhere near trying to show roots in your beloved Sanskrit - with its heavy borrowing from Tamil. So keep your imagination going just on 'insults'!


I think - in the various linguistic enquiry threads of this Hub, there have been sufficient references and analyses on roots of words. Most of the time I had to either repeat, synthesize, extend, explain etc., in giving the roots. Sometimes I had to summarize. At other times - choose between alternatives. There has been sufficient number of books on this topic of etymology too. There are also writers on other forums. The percentage of words that presented difficulty was negligible. I have also done research for others in linguistics. It is here done one, two or three words at a time. Not taxing at all, as this Vedic topic upon our Indianxxxx brother and uppaiyar. These two are struggling. like a failing swimmer in a pool of water!!
In fact, both would have had a happier life if some of us did not come in at all and query and comment!! We make the uppuma too hot for them.

Funny to see how We after having gather evidences for vedic culture in Arabia are failed swimmers in a pool of water. I admire the Tamil worshippers.

[stranger]

You keep saying these idiotic two sentences of same sort.

Any vacuum-head can post whatever you do here.

[stranger]

At first u said Arabian worship is Tamil. Then you said Arabian worship is not at all related to indian worship. Then you said Arabian Worship is analagous to "Our"(i donno what u mean by our) worship. Now you Say Yes its very much related except that its not Vedic and I am just guessing What will u say next?
Now in the next paragraph you say that Hindu influence is due to South India.

I am glad that u said South India instead of Saying Tamil. Haa haa now u talk abt Indonesian Culture and Influence But one thing i can say that go to any Indonesia/Bali Hindu religious forum or a website and see for urself whether its Vedic or Tamil ( :lol: ).

Man i love u guys!!!!!

You love me????

What kind of bullshit is that???

A person spending his/her valuable time analyzing and coming up with a sensible post.

Now you come up with senseless argument! :twisted:

And finally, "I love you guys" bullshit dialogue too! :twisted:

[Idiappam]

Uppuma lied:

Sangam and Tholkappiam does not have Siva or mention of Lingam worship anywhere.
That's Uppuma's lie 1.
There is enough mention of Siva in Sangam Literature. I can show you the lines - Many of them if you want.



Where as Rig Veda has Lingam Worship; doing Abishekam is there
That's Uppuma's Lie 2.
Show me the Rig vedic verse - there is non there about abishekam or 'Lingam' worship.


and they are repeated in Bible;
Uppuma's Lie no 3.
Where?? In Psalms??


Tamil uses almost 40-50% of words from SANSkrit , Prakrit and Pali is the Linguistic position.
Lie no 4 -- show me how??


Professor Hart articles in the net confirms it.
Uppuma's Lie no 5. Hart said that.. That Poor man has bear your lies too.

Uppuma go get a life and stop misquoting Tamil works, start reading the Vedas and give evidence from there -- or are you just illiterate in Sanskrit. You are another anti-Tamil Vedic Stooge - and you exhibit that clearly - unlike the other Vedic stooges here - good for you!

[bis_mala]

Indian wrote:


You know i find it amusing.

At first u said Arabian worship is Tamil. Then you said Arabian worship is not at all related to indian worship. Then you said Arabian Worship is analagous to "Our"(i donno what u mean by our) worship. Now you Say Yes its very much related except that its not Vedic and I am just guessing What will u say next?
Now in the next paragraph you say that Hindu influence is due to South India.

I am glad that u said South India instead of Saying Tamil. Haa haa now u talk abt Indonesian Culture and Influence But one thing i can say that go to any Indonesia/Bali Hindu religious forum or a website and see for urself whether its Vedic or Tamil ( Laughing ).

In your speed of sinking into the pool of water, you do not even know which is water. which is weed, which is soil.

Take your time and sink slowly, can you?

That's why I said you were struggling too much with this topic.

[indian224080]

Indian wrote:


You know i find it amusing.

At first u said Arabian worship is Tamil. Then you said Arabian worship is not at all related to indian worship. Then you said Arabian Worship is analagous to "Our"(i donno what u mean by our) worship. Now you Say Yes its very much related except that its not Vedic and I am just guessing What will u say next?
Now in the next paragraph you say that Hindu influence is due to South India.

I am glad that u said South India instead of Saying Tamil. Haa haa now u talk abt Indonesian Culture and Influence But one thing i can say that go to any Indonesia/Bali Hindu religious forum or a website and see for urself whether its Vedic or Tamil ( Laughing ).

In your speed of sinking into the pool of water, you do not even know which is water. which is weed, which is soil.

Take your time and sink slowly, can you?

That's why I said you were struggling too much with this topic.

Haa haa good twist.

[stranger]

Take your time and sink slowly, can you?

That's why I said you were struggling too much with this topic.

Yeah, the half-life of LIE is always too short. So is the hub-life of LIARS! 8-)

[devapriya]

[tscii:65b9e93d03]
Friends.

I have referred Tiruvalluvar- who said “ An Ignorant wishing to speak in educated forum, is like a Women without breasts wanting to show her Beauty. We see quiet a lot of Friends writing on dating of Bible.

OLD Testament – contains three parts Torah or LAW; NIBUYAM or Prophets and Kethubim or Writings so called TANAKH.

INSide Bible we see finding of a law book to have happened during the reign of King Josiah, and the new book was a big surprise t the country;
This is revealed in 2Kings 22:-13 and 2Chr34:8-14 etc., This Josiah is dated to late 7th cen. BCE, and these books were written in 4th/3rd Cen. BCE.

As per Ezra 6:14,15, temple was completed during the 6th year of reign of King Darius. Now this King Darius is identified as Darius-III, who ruled between 359-333BCE as per the Chronologies of Bible Historians. And this Ezra, wrote a law code and read after the temple erection. NOW Bible Scholars Prove that the first reference is to a Portion of Deutramy and the Ezra reference is to a reference of A portion of P-portion of Torah, out of J,P,E & D portions as refered by Scholars. So it is clear from the internal evidences which were again written much later than actual; that Torah was actually put to writitng in 3rd Cen.BCE.
Inside Torah the following are proved wrong by Archeology , which confirmed the writitng of the Mythology is much later.
Use of camels. Abraham sent out a servant with camels to find a wife for his son, Isaac.
This was about 2100 to 1800 BCE Actually, camels were not much used for transport in this area until after 1000 BCE

Isaac and Abimelech. Abimelech was king of the Philistines, and Isaac sought help from him,
which could not be much later than 1800 BCE Problem is, there were no Philistines present until after 1200 BCE

Heshbon and Edom. Hebrews fought King Sihon at Heshbon and also the king of Edom.
But these two cities did not exist at the time of the supposed battles.

Forty years in the Sinai. Archeologists cannot find any trace of such a large number of people living in the
Sinai during the time the Jews were supposed to be wandering or camped there.

Invasion of Canaan. There is no indication of an invasion.

Friends, we see use of word- Prophets or Prophecies etc., in Jewish and Christian and Islamic Tradition- but what is Prophecy and who is a Prophet? Bible answers-

“ … Saul went to Naioth, were Prophet Samuel and David was reportedly staying… As Saul was going there, the Spirit of god took control of Him also nd He Danced and Shouted in Samuel’sPresence and Lay Naked all that Day and all that Night. This is how the Saying Originated-‘HAS EVEN Saul became a Prophet” 1Sam.19:23,24 TEV.

Friends,
Dating of Lit. be quoted as per UNAnimity of International Universities as given in Secular Encyclopedias. Please do not quote meaningless Old suppositions from the PAST.

Bible has a lot to prove its inspiration from Indian Traditions and Jesus’s story taken from LORD-Krishna was written by Many Christian authors,and I shall give them in next postings.

If friends have Lingam Worship in Sangam and the Noun Siva in Tholkappiyam to Sangam lit please give it here. The name Siva is developed to give to suit the ultimate God of Vedas.

Devajothi.
[/tscii:65b9e93d03]

[SRS]

Here is a little info on Tamil:

"The history of Tamil literature can be divided into two periods namely Tamil literature before the advent of British rule and Tamil literature after the establishment of the British rule in India.



Before the British set foot on our soil, Tamil literature had a stunted and lopsided

growth. There was superabunclant poetry, a small amount of turgid prose and little else.



The renaissance of Tamil language/ literature took place only during the British regime. New forms of writing in Tamil never known before, like skit, modern prose, article, essay, drama, one-act play, short story, novel, satire etc. blossomed only after scholars and writers in Tamil were exposed to English and its literature. Thus, English contributed to the variegated and multifarious growth of Tamil literature in no small measure. Those who inveigh against English and plead for monolinguism i.e.Tamil only must not forget this patent fact.



The twentieth century was a watershed in Tamil literature. There were hundreds of writers in Tamil who tried all forms of writing with success as explained earlier. Tamil periodicals like Ananda Vikatan, Kalki, Kumudam, Amuda Surabi and Kalaimagal gave a big boost to the prolific growth of Tamil literature notably novels, which were serialised and published as short stories and essays.



Tamil prose and poetry also underwent a transformation during the 20th century. The trend-setter in modem Tamil prose was T.V.Kalyanasundara Mudaliar, affectionately known as Thiru-vi-ka, while the trend-setter in modem Tamil poetry was Subramania Bharathi. In short, the largest and varied output in Tamil literature came about only in the twentieth century, the Golden Age of Tamil literature.



The British regime also enabled foreign scholars to learn Tamil language and its literature, owing to which the greatness and glory of Tamil literature spread to many foreign countries. For example, Tirukkural was first translated into English by G.U. Pope. Subsequently, there were other translations of Tirukkural. Now, there is a Penguin edition of Tirukkural about which every Tamil can feel proud. Other foreign scholars who learnt Tamil incude John Caldwell and Joseph Beschi, who changed his name as Veeramamunivar.



Thus you will understand that for the prolific and variegated growth of Tamil literature, a good command of English is absolutely essential. I hope that in the years to come many Tamil students will master English and translate all the important works in Tamil into English so that foreign scholars may know about the immensity of literary output in Tamil. Likewise, foreigners who want to learn Tamil must be provided all facilities in Tamil Nadu. Well, these are the two ways to spread the greatness and glory of Tamil around the world."

[SRS]

Continued...

"Till now, I have given you a resume of Sanskrit and Tamil literature. Now, I will dwell on the growth of both Tamil and Sanskrit literature in Tamil Nadu since ancient times.



The ancient Tamils regarded both Tamil and Sanskrit as their two eyes, as some Tamil scholars have stressed time and again. They learnt both these languages with equal fervour.

There is no poet without a patron. Therefore, if both Tamil and Sanskrit flourished simultaneously in Tamil Nadu from ancient times, it was only because Tamil Kings patronised both Tamil and Sanskrit without any discrimination. Kanchi was a great seat of learning Sanskrit in ancient times.

Many Tamil scholars were equally proficient in Sanskrit too in ancient times like Agathiyar, Tolkappiar and others. It is debatable whether Kambar would have written his magnum opus Kamba Ramayanarn with such unrivalled excellence, but for his commendable proficiency in Sanskrit. Some poets, as for example, Villiputhurar and Arunagirinathar blended both these languages in their poems judiciously. In fact, there was a time, not long ago, when only those who were proficient in both languages were regbrded as scholars by the academicians. That was about 150 years ago.


But, four outstanding Tamil scholars namely Subramania Bharati and his friends and disciples Bharatidasan, Swami Vedachalarn who changed his name into pure Tamil as Maraimalai Adigal and V.K.Suryanarayana Sastriar who changed his name into pure Tamil as Paridimaal Kalaignar fomented Tamil frenzy among the people of Tamil Nadu, through their speeches or writings or both. Some Tamil scholars like Navalar Somasundara Bharathiyar denigrated Sanskrit. As if this was not enough, there were some politicians who launched in season and out of season vitriolic tirades against Sanskrit and branded it as an alien language. Hence Sanskrit began to languish in Tamil Nadu since the dawn of the twentieth century after flourishing continuously for thousands of years in Tamil Nadu.

There are many Western scholars who learn Sanskrit even today and realise much to their pleasant surprise that it is a veritable treasure trove.

There are many Muslims who learn Sanskrit in India and abroad even today. Recently, a Muslim scholar had translated the Bhagavad-Gita into Urdu from Sanskrit. Mr.M.M.Ismail, former Chief Justice of Madras High Court, who is propagating the greatness and glory of Kamba Ramayanam is well up in Sanskrit and speaks fluently in that language.

When western scholars who are Chrisitans and Muslims in India and abroad learn Sanskrit, there is no reason why Tamils should not emulate the shining example of their forbears and start learning Sanskrit right from now onwards. I hope you will ponder over this issue in all earnestness.

I have hitherto made a comparative analysis of Sanskrit and Tamil literature and explained with facts and figures as to how both Tamil and Sanskrit flourished in Tamil Nadu simultaneously since ancient times.

R.P.Sethu Pillai, a distinguished Tamil savant has said in one of his essays in Tamil that both Sanskrit and Tamil had a luxuriant growth by God's grace. It is hoped that both these ancient and classical languages will be learnt with avidity not by the people in India, but also by scholars in all countries around the world, so that India's priceless and peerless heritage may be known the world over, as a result of which India's prestige will soar throughout the globe."

http://www.aurovillelanguagelab.org/sanskrit_tamil.htm

[Saya Setju]

[tscii:84dd810c6e]

Friends.

I have referred Tiruvalluvar- who said “ An Ignorant wishing to speak in educated forum, is like a Women without breasts wanting to show her Beauty. We see quiet a lot of Friends writing on dating of Bible.
....
The name Siva is developed to give to suit the ultimate God of Vedas.

Devajothi.


The Ignorant friend's talk on bible is like shaving the hair on an egg shell - the result is always the same --> the outcome is nothing!


The name Siva is devoloped how? From where and what into what and where to?

devapriya=Devajothi=uppuma=solomon=friends=peter&paul :?: [/tscii:84dd810c6e]

[devapriya]

[tscii:e45e2c065f]Friends,

Rig Veda and Vedic collection regards Siva and Vishnu as the God heads and this I quote from Tamil Arignar R.Shanmugasundaram- PazhanthTamil Varalaru-this book has supportive foreword by Dr.R.mathiwanan- former Director of Tamil Etymological Dictionary project (NuulNalan)
þÕìÌ §Å¾ò¾¢ø ¯Õò¾¢Ã¨É ÁðÎõ ãýÚ À¾¢¸í¸Ç¢Öõ (1:114, 2:33, 7:46) Å¢‰Ï¨Å ÁðÎõ ãýê À¾¢¸í¸Ç¢Öõ (1:154,155; 7:100) À¡¼ôÀðÎ þÕ츢ýÈÉ. þ측Äò¨¾ô §À¡Ä§Å §Å¾ ¸¡Äò¾¢Öõ Áì¸û þ¨ÈÅÉ¢ý ¸¢¨Ç¨Âô ¦ÀÕí ¸¼×Ç¡¸ô §À¡üȢɡ÷¸û. «¾É¡ø ¯Õò¾¢ÃÉ¢ýý Á¸ý ÁÕ¾Óõ «ì¸¢É¢Ôõ Å¢‰ÏÅ¢ý §¾¡Æý þóò¾¢ÃÛõ þÕìÌ §Å¾ò¾¢ø ÀÄ À¾¢¸í¸Ç¢M À¡¼ô Àð¼¡÷¸û. þÕóÐõ §Å¾¸¡Äò¾¢ø ¯Õò¾¢ÃÛõ Å¢‰Ï×õ ¸¼×û¸éìÌò ¾¨ÄÅ÷¸Ç¡¸ô §À¡üÈô Àð¼¡÷¸û. Àì- 217

irukku veethaththil uruththiranai mattum muunRu pathikangkaLilum (1:114, 2:33, 7:46) vishNuvai mattum muunRU pathikangkaLilum (1:154,155; 7:100) paadappattu irukkinRana. ikkaalaththaip poolavee veetha kaalaththilum makkaL iRaivanin kiLaiyaip perung kadavuLaakap pooRRinaarkaL. athanaal uruththiraninn makan maruthamum akkiniyum vishNuvin thoozan inthththiranum irukku veethaththil pala pathikangkaLiM paadap pattaarkaL. irunththum veethakaalaththil uruththiranum vishNuvum kadavuLkaLUkkuth thalaivarkaLaakap pooRRap pattaarkaL. pak- 217
§Å¾ì ¸¼×û ¯Õò¾¢Ãý ¾ý º¢Åý ±ýÀ¾üÌ §Å¾ò¾¢ø «¸îº¡ýÚ þøÄ¡ÁÄ¢ø¨Ä- "²À¢ º¢Å;” ±ýÚ þÕìÌ §Å¾õ(10:92:9) ÜÚ¸¢üÐ. ͧž¡ŠÅ¾Ã ¯ô¿¢¼¾ò¾¢ø "¯Ã¢ò¾¢Ã¨É- ¯Õò¾¢Ãº¢Å¡" "º¢Åõ" "º¢Å¡õ" "º¢Å¡" ±Éì ÜÚ¸¢È¡÷. º¢Åõ ±ýÀ¾üÌ º¡ó¾õ ±Éô ¦À¡Õû ÜÚÅ÷. Àì 89

veethak kadavuL uruththiran than sivan enpathaRku veethaththil akassaanRu illaamalillai- "eepi
siva; enRu irukku veetham(10:92:9) kuuRukiRthu. suveethaaSvathara up-nitathaththil "uriththiranai- uruththirasivaa" "sivam" "sivaam" "sivaa" enak kuuRukiRaar. Sivam enpathaRku saanththam enap poruL kuuRuvar. pak 89


and Sivalinga Worship in Rig Veda as per this Scholar:

§Å¾¢Â÷¸û ¡¸º¡¨Ä¢ø µÁÌñ¼òòüÌì ¸¢Æ츢ø âÁ¢Â¢ø ¸õÀí¸¨Ç ¿ðÎ ¦¾öÅí¸Ç¡¸ Å½í¸¢É¡÷¸û. þì¸õÀí¸¨Ç §ÅñÊì ¦¸¡ñÎ þÕìÌ 3:8ø À¡ÊÂÅ÷

"µ ÅÉŠÀ¾¢§Â! þ¨ÈÀ½¢ Òâ§Å¡÷ ¯ÉìÌ ±ñ¦½ö ¦¾öòÐ ×¾¢ «Ç¢ì¸¢È÷¸û. ¿£ §¿Ã¡¸ «ý¨É¢ý Á¡÷À¢ø þ¨ÇôÀ¡Úõ §À¡Ð ±í¸ÙìÌî ¦ºøÅõ «Õûš¡¸. §Å¾¢Â÷ ¸¢Æ츢ø ¯Â÷ò¾¢Â ¸õÀí¸û ¸¼×Ç÷¸Ç¡¸¢ì ¸¼×Ç÷ ÌÊ¢ÕìÌõ þ¼í¸ÙìÌô §À¡¸¢ýÈÉ”
±ýÚ Ó¾ü À¡¼Ä¢ø ÜȢɡ÷.

þ¾É¡ø §Å¾¸¡Äò¾¢ø ¸õÀí¸¨Ç ¿ðÎ ¦¾öÅÁ¡¸ Å½í¸¢ Åó¾Ð ¦¾Ã¢ÂÅÕõ. «ì¸¡Äò¾¢ø ¸õÀò¾¢üÌ ±ñ¦½ö §¾öòÌ «À¢§„¸ï ¦ºö¾Ð §À¡ø þ측Äò¾¢ø ¦¾öÅî º¢¨Ä¸ÙìÌõ º¢ÅÄ¢í¸ò¾¢üÌõ ±ñ¦½ö §¾öòÐ «ô§„¸ï ¦ºöÂô Àθ¢ÈÐ. º¢ÅÄ¢í¸ò¾¢üÌ «ô§„¸ï ¦ºöÔõ §À¡Ð "¾¢¨ÃÂõÀ¸õ ƒ¡Á§†" ±Éò ¦¾¡¼íÌõ §Å¾ Áó¾¢Ãõ (þÕìÌ 7:59:12, ƒ¤÷ 6:30) µ¾ô Àθ¢ÈÐ. þÐ §Å¾ ¸¡Ä¾¢Ä¢ÕóÐ º¢ÅÄ¢í¸ò¾¢üÌ «À¢§„¸ï ¦ºöР⃢ì¸ô ÀðÎ Åó¾¨¾ì ¸¡ðθ¢ÈÐ. Àì- 101


Friends- I regard Tamil as great as Sanskrit and any disregard to Tamil is not acceptable to me.

Now I QUOTE Professor Hart ON Sanskrit and Tamil and that Tamil has burrowed more Sanskrit words into it.
lNeither Sanskrit nor Tamil are particularly old in the world scheme of things. Sanskrit is documented earlier than Tamil.

Sanskrit has borrowed quite as much from Dravidian as Dravidian has from Sanskrit. Tamil has borrowed more words from Sanskrit than Sanskrit has from Dravidian.

Both languages are carriers of wonderful and rich intellectual and literary traditions. The only way to appreciate either language is to read these literatures and spend a lot of time pondering them.



Quiet a lot of untruths are put as reseach opinions, and totally disregarded are given by MALA ETC.,
Please give sensible quotes[/tscii:e45e2c065f]

[stranger]

Friends- I regard Tamil as great as Sanskrit and any disregard to Tamil is not acceptable to me.

Now I QUOTE Professor Hart ON Sanskrit and Tamil and that Tamil has burrowed more Sanskrit words into it.


Now Prof. Hart's statements are accepted. :shock:

But when he was quoted for recommedning thamizh as a classical language, people started questioning Hart's judgments and his credentials. :roll:

[devapriya]

Friends,

I have never critiscised HART for his letter; only the Govt when it recommended Tamil as 1000 year old Classical LANGUAGE it was criticised, when we have literature from 200 BCE.

Every Language takes words from other LANguages and we should see the Historical USE Of words, and rather new words ina Lit. helps to date them.
Idiayappam Uncle wanted to Know where is Bible is Sivalingam worship and Aibshekams done and Undle Guessed Psalms.
Uncle it is verymuch in Genesis and Exodus.
And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for A PILLAR, AND POURED OIL UPON THE TOP OF IT. Ge 28:18
And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first Ge 28:19

There are many more such that can be shown.IT is the Hatred that spoils your views. And God here is called El-Shaddai, a pure Tamil word for the name of VEDIC RUDRA Siva.

Friends, to me Both Tamil and Sanskrit and literaure of both are of equal status,and I do not say Either is superior.

[bis_mala]

Every Language takes words from other LANguages

as u have taken words from Solomon=PaulThomas=Pavitra etc etc.,



Uncle it is verymuch in Genesis and Exodus.

That is PaulThomas speciality. Are you no longer writing about Dr Deivanaayagam?

Please give other quotes from Genesis and Exodus and what have you!! I asked the archdeacon of the Church nearby my home. He told me that's rubbish.

Pouring oil over stone. Any mention in the Vedas.? Please also give the citations with material.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:26906b4983]Devapriya wrote:

//þ¾É¡ø §Å¾¸¡Äò¾¢ø ¸õÀí¸¨Ç ¿ðÎ ¦¾öÅÁ¡¸ Å½í¸¢ Åó¾Ð ¦¾Ã¢ÂÅÕõ. «ì¸¡Äò¾¢ø ¸õÀò¾¢üÌ ±ñ¦½ö §¾öòÌ «À¢§„¸ï ¦ºö¾Ð §À¡ø þ측Äò¾¢ø ¦¾öÅî º¢¨Ä¸ÙìÌõ º¢ÅÄ¢í¸ò¾¢üÌõ ±ñ¦½ö §¾öòÐ «ô§„¸ï ¦ºöÂô Àθ¢ÈÐ. º¢ÅÄ¢í¸ò¾¢üÌ «ô§„¸ï ¦ºöÔõ §À¡Ð "¾¢¨ÃÂõÀ¸õ ƒ¡Á§†" ±Éò ¦¾¡¼íÌõ §Å¾ Áó¾¢Ãõ (þÕìÌ 7:59:12, ƒ¤÷ 6:30) µ¾ô Àθ¢ÈÐ. þÐ §Å¾ ¸¡Ä¾¢Ä¢ÕóÐ º¢ÅÄ¢í¸ò¾¢üÌ «À¢§„¸ï ¦ºöР⃢ì¸ô ÀðÎ Åó¾¨¾ì ¸¡ðθ¢ÈÐ. Àì- 101 //


«¾üÌî ¦ºöÅЧÀ¡Ä§Å þ¾üÌ þô§À¡Ð ¦ºöÂò¦¾¡¼í¸¢Å¢ð¼¡÷¸û ±ýÀ¾É¡ø «Ð þÐÅ¡¸¢Å¢ÎÁ¡?

It just means that the priesthood has presently adopted a similar procedure for Sivan etc.,

Isn't this logic like this:

A wore spectacles.
B now wears spectacles.
So, A = B.

Not conclusive. May or may not be!![/tscii:26906b4983]

//Hatred that spoils your views.//

Love can be blind!!
Those who scruitinize are not necessarily showing hatred!!

[bis_mala]

[tscii:4e92b1fcdf]
//þÕìÌ §Å¾ò¾¢ø ¯Õò¾¢Ã¨É ÁðÎõ ãýÚ À¾¢¸í¸Ç¢Öõ (1:114, 2:33, 7:46) Å¢‰Ï¨Å ÁðÎõ ãýê À¾¢¸í¸Ç¢Öõ (1:154,155; 7:100) À¡¼ôÀðÎ þÕ츢ýÈÉ. þ측Äò¨¾ô §À¡Ä§Å §Å¾ ¸¡Äò¾¢Öõ Áì¸û þ¨ÈÅÉ¢ý ¸¢¨Ç¨Âô ¦ÀÕí ¸¼×Ç¡¸ô §À¡üȢɡ÷¸û. «¾É¡ø ¯Õò¾¢ÃÉ¢ýý Á¸ý ÁÕ¾Óõ «ì¸¢É¢Ôõ Å¢‰ÏÅ¢ý §¾¡Æý þóò¾¢ÃÛõ þÕìÌ §Å¾ò¾¢ø ÀÄ À¾¢¸í¸Ç¢M À¡¼ô Àð¼¡÷¸û. þÕóÐõ §Å¾¸¡Äò¾¢ø ¯Õò¾¢ÃÛõ Å¢‰Ï×õ ¸¼×û¸éìÌò ¾¨ÄÅ÷¸Ç¡¸ô §À¡üÈô Àð¼¡÷¸û. Àì- 217 //



This passage you have quoted clearly says that the sub-gods were revered in those days just like the main gods. Hence it is saying in between the lines that Rudra was then a sub-God for the Vedic Hymn makers, even though they nevertheless regarded such gods with piety.

Elsewhere in the book you are quoting, there must have been clarifications about what were the main gods and what the sub-gods during the Vedic period. You are not quoting those parts or paras.

It is not denied that Rudra was a subordinate god then for the North.
What I stated before was that it was only much later after the Vedic period and during the puranic period that the North discovered the “sameness” of Rudra of the North and Siva of the South. It shows the growth in the religion and its doctrines.

Now you can compare and contrast and say that they (Siva and Rudra ) are the same entities and I am not disputing the present conclusions about them (or him) .

The reason might be that the singer of the Rig Veda hymns had not heard of this term Siva when he sang those hymns or having heard of it, did not want to refer to Rudra by that name or some other reason. Only singer knows.

To give you another example, at the time Devapriya registered “herself” the software of the hub did not know that it was dealing with Solomon. Unknown to the software, they are same persons. Now our hubbers have discovered. This is a subsequent discovery. Actually same but for the record and history, different persons!!!

All Gods are same. I am not disputing the religious doctrine.

Why is this apparent dichotomy between Siva and Rudra important? Because Sivan is a Tamil word.
[/tscii:4e92b1fcdf]

[Saya Setju]

Friends, to me Both Tamil and Sanskrit and literaure of both are of equal status,and I do not say Either is superior.

Who cares of what you say? Say what you want and you don't want. All you say is BS and all the you don't say is BS too.

[devapriya]

[tscii:e129082311]Dear Friends,


Bismalas’s blabber again\
//Please give other quotes from Genesis and Exodus and what have you!! I asked the archdeacon of the Church nearby my home. He told me that's rubbish.//

Since when did you start to these meaningless activities? Then on Vedas you should ask the Vedic Pundits, and not those highly biased western Authors. But still, the right authorities would be those who worked on Comparative Religions and with Unbiased lookout. The western Scholars took translation only to discredit Indian Tradition as Sir.Monier Williams onenly put it- My very first public lecture delivered after my election in 1860 was on “the study of Sanskrit in relation to missionary work in Inida” in his Intorduction to Sanskrit-English Dictionary.

We all know the our bullshit periyan and DK followed the stores and theories of maxmullar and blamed the hindu society and vedas and our culture... But Max Müller was a paid employee, who translated the Rigved in a demeaning style. The hidden secrets of his life. Max Müller was a British agent, especially employed (in 1847) to write the translations of the Vedas in such a demeaning way so that the Hindus should lose faith in them. His personal letter to his wife dated December 9, 1867 reveals this fact. 2. He was highly paid for this job. According to the statistical information given on page 214 of the “English Education, 1798-1902” by John William Adamson, printed by Cambridge University Press in 1930, the revised scale of a male teacher was £90 per year and for a woman, £60 in 1853. The present salary of a teacher in London is £14,000 to £36,000 per year, which averages a minimum of at least 200 times increase in the last 146 years. Max Müller was paid £4 per sheet of his writing which comes to £800 of today (1999). This is an incredibly high price for only one sheet of writing. But it’s the general law of business, that the price of a commodity increases with its demand. The British were in such an imperative need to get someone to do this job and Max Müller was the right person, so they paid whatever Max Müller asked for. His enthusiastic letter to his mother dated April 15, 1847 reveals this fact. 3. Max Müller’s letters dated August 25, 1856 and December 16, 1868 reveal the fact that he was desperate to bring Christianity into India so that the religion of the Hindus should be doomed. His letters also reveal that: 4. He lived in poverty before he was employed by the British, (5) his duplicity in translation was praised by his superiors, and (6) in London, where he lived, there were a lot of orientalists working for the British. Letters of Max Müller. “The Life and Letters of Friedrich Max Müller.” First published in 1902 (London and N.Y.). Reprint in 1976 (USA). TO HIS WIFE, OXFORD, December 9, 1867. “…I feel convinced, though I shall not live to see it, that this edition of mine and the translation of the Veda will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India, and on the growth of millions of souls in that country. It is the root of their religion, and to show them what that root is, I feel sure, the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last 3,000 years.”
To Chevalier Bunsen. 55 St. John Street, Oxford, August 25, 1856.

“India is much riper for Christianity than Rome or Greece were at the time of St. Paul. The rotten tree has for some time had artificial supports… For the good of this struggle I should like to lay down my life, or at least to lend my hand to bring about this struggle.

To the duke of Argyll. Oxford, December 16, 1868.

“India has been conquered once, but India must be conquered again, and that second conquest should be a conquest by education. Much has been done for education of late, but if the funds were tripled and quadrupled, that would hardly be enough… A new national literature may spring up, impregnated with western ideas, yet retaining its native spirit and character… A new national literature will bring with it a new national life, and new moral vigour. As to religion, that will take care of itself. The missionaries have done far more than they themselves seem to be aware of.”

“The ancient religion of India is doomed, and if Christianity does not step in, whose fault will it be?”
SO STOP THESE.
On Veidc Influence on Old Testament.
Oxford University Professor and Renowned Scholar- A.H.Sayce- in his –The Herbert Lectures, 1887, Origin and Growth of Religions said- “ The sacred stone was Bethel or house of God, no habitation of mere spirit, but the dwelling place of deity itself. And these Pillars are holy to Semitic people and its branches. The Black stone present at “KHABHA” stands proof of this. The Arabic people had enormous faith on this and hence Muhammad did not try to crush this, but linked this with Biblical stories, and made holy in his religion.”

Again G.U.Pope- This worship of God (Generally some local deity) in connection with a stone or pillar, as marking a sacred spot, is found everywhere in Ancient records. See Genesis 28.. Thiruvasagam Pxi- foot note 11.
Gen 28- 16-22, 35:14 31:13, Joshua 24:26, 1Sam 7:12 all talk about Pillar Lingams, A Vedic pattern continued.
Ka.Su.Pillai has noticed this and written this in his book.
N.C.Kanthaiah Pillai, in his book0 Sivan has referred this and also the 1Kings12:28-33, Putting of Calf symbol is referred as putting Nandi as per Indian practice.
The very name Sivan does not known to Tholkappiyar to sangam to Silapathikaram, where as Vedic Literature right from Rig has it.
I would add more from Blawatsky- who worked on Comparative Religion much more than any other in my next post.
The names of Hebrew months and other activities prove much more of its debt to Vedic ancestory, in my next posts.

JESUS AND VEDAS:
Rudolf Otta- book The Kingdom of God and the Son of Man- says
“The figure of a being who had to do with the world and who was subordinate to the primary, ineffable, remote andaborginial deity is of high antiquity among the Aryans …. The Phrase “ The Son of Man” pints back insome way (though Enoch) to influences of the Aryan East” and I quote this from Sarvapalli Radhakrishanan- Eastern Religions p 160-2.

Maxmuller –“ Many people, no doubt are much distressed in their minds when they are told Christianity is but a second edition of Buddism. Is it really true?, they ask, why did you not tell us before? “Studies in Buddhism” page- 77

So please try not to distart truths, of presence of Vedic Past in Arab and further, and much more details in my next post.
Devapriya.
[/tscii:e129082311]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:90cf61a9ea]//But Max Müller was a paid employee, who translated the Rigved in a demeaning style.//

Devipriya, do not accuse others of being paid employee. Please declare whether you are a paid employee yourself.

Carrying out incessant propaganda work?[/tscii:90cf61a9ea]

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

-Erased-

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Quoting various scholars the following have been already ascertained in various threads.

1. Vedhas were collected by Vedha viyasar by 100 CE. There is no single word like "Indu / Hindu" anywhere in four vedhas,18 Puranas, Akaamas,Upanishads, Ramayana & Mahabharatha.

2.This word coined in south & used first by Thiruvasakam. Thiruvasakam talks about "Erumuch chamayam" viz - Siva,Vinnava,samana,Buddha, Vedha, Asuvaka(Sankiya).

3.Vedhic Brahminism is not Hinduism and wrongly propogated by Vedhic pratogonists. This Brahminism was much followed by Vaduka kannadikas & Vaduka Telugus and later by medievial tamils (I may write later about this in some other thread)

4. Adam is from tamil Aadu-u / Aadavan. Nova is from Tamil "Navai"-Ship. The flood story in Viviliam is based on Navaikkaaran-Naikan- later in tamil land.

5.Inthran, Varunan, Vishnu & Sivan never had root in Sanskrit.

6. Kaltheyans,Elamiyans & Methians the ancestors of Arabians in particular and West Asians in General migrated from South west coast of India as tamils. Kanthu worship is from tamils. (See my post in Tamil's elderiness...thread)

With this background we have to analyse the facts of pre-islamic Arabia.

Devepriya wrote :

"We all know the our bullshit periyan and DK followed the stores and theories of maxmullar and blamed the hindu society and vedas and our culture... But Max Müller was a paid employee, who translated the Rigved in a demeaning style"

Your are mixing up two ends. Periyar criticized Maxmuller also.

Maxmuller never blamed hindu society and he was proud of himself being an Ariyan and originator of Aryan history (But in his later years he came towards tamil). Whatever may be the result of Maxmuller a Germanian-perhaps the cause for the Second world war - creater of Nazi Aryan fanatics, His Roots words research was best honoured by all historiens of world.

Thanthai Periyar( Who broke the backbone of Vedhic Brahminism & started first social renaisance and revolutionary movement which is now followed by UP state Mulayam Singh Yadav & Maayawathi (one who open statue for Periyar in Luknow and last his CM post only due to this), Bihar Laloo,Anthra -Naidu, Karnanaka & Orissa -Janata dal and even by BJP ruled states Gujarat Sankar Singh Vaghela, UP -Kalyan Singh & Mathya Pradesh-Uma Bharathi(one who revolt against leadership accusing the heads as representatives of Vedhic Brahminism).

You call the Periyar as Periyan in disrespectful way who was mass follower of tamils and still remains many downtrodden people's God only due to you worst liking for Brahminism.

This clearly shows the real picture of Indian total social and political divide of Indian true history and wrong history.

Your Hindutva plank of degrading Britishers who gave education for masses of indians which was neglected by your "Pramma Theyam" period will no longer work, in the name of indian integrity.

Maramalai Adikal (Expert in tamil,Sanskrit & English and world history),Paavanar (well respected linguists of world order), Ka.Su.Pillai (renowned literary scholar)are cornered by devapriya and this clearly shows his fanatism for Brahmin supremacy.

Gone are the days that your treachery works twinkling. Your misinterpretations of indian history shall be perished under Indian ocean and parallely kumari kandam truths will come up.

Your Indian concept of "Vedhic Brahminism" will not work but Indian concept of Secularism and tamil concept of "Yathu Ure Yavarum Kelir" shall surely work in India.

Readers might have observed his misinterpretations from his own quotations.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Quoting various scholars the following have been already ascertained in various threads.

1. Vedhas were collected by Vedha viyasar by 100 CE. There is no single word like "Indu / Hindu" anywhere in four vedhas,18 Puranas, Akaamas,Upanishads, Ramayana & Mahabharatha.

2.This word coined in south & used first by Thiruvasakam. Thiruvasakam talks about "Erumuch chamayam" viz - Siva,Vinnava,samana,Buddha, Vedha, Asuvaka(Sankiya).

3.Vedhic Brahminism is not Hinduism and wrongly propogated by Vedhic pratogonists. This Brahminism was much followed by Vaduka kannadikas & Vaduka Telugus and later by medievial tamils (I may write later about this in some other thread)

4. Adam is from tamil Aadu-u / Aadavan. Nova is from Tamil "Navai"-Ship. The flood story in Viviliam is based on Navaikkaaran-Naikan- later in tamil land.

5.Inthran, Varunan, Vishnu & Sivan never had root in Sanskrit.

6. Kaltheyans,Elamiyans & Methians the ancestors of Arabians in particular and West Asians in General migrated from South west coast of India as tamils. Kanthu worship is from tamils. (See my post in Tamil's elderiness...thread)

With this background we have to analyse the facts of pre-islamic Arabia.

Devepriya wrote :

"We all know the our bullshit periyan and DK followed the stores and theories of maxmullar and blamed the hindu society and vedas and our culture... But Max Müller was a paid employee, who translated the Rigved in a demeaning style"

Your are mixing up two ends. Periyar criticized Maxmuller also.

Maxmuller never blamed hindu society and he was proud of himself being an Ariyan and originator of Aryan history (But in his later years he came towards tamil). Whatever may be the result of Maxmuller a Germanian-perhaps the cause for the Second world war - creater of Nazi Aryan fanatics, His Roots words research was best honoured by all historiens of world.

Thanthai Periyar( Who broke the backbone of Vedhic Brahminism & started first social renaisance and revolutionary movement which is now followed by UP state Mulayam Singh Yadav & Maayawathi (one who open statue for Periyar in Luknow and last his CM post only due to this), Bihar Laloo,Anthra -Naidu, Karnanaka & Orissa -Janata dal and even by BJP ruled states Gujarat Sankar Singh Vaghela, UP -Kalyan Singh & Mathya Pradesh-Uma Bharathi(one who revolt against leadership accusing the heads as representatives of Vedhic Brahminism).

You call the Periyar as Periyan in disrespectful way who was mass follower of tamils and still remains many downtrodden people's God only due to you worst liking for Brahminism.

This clearly shows the real picture of Indian total social and political divide of Indian true history and wrong history.

Your Hindutva plank of degrading Britishers who gave education for masses of indians which was neglected by your "Pramma Theyam" period will no longer work, in the name of indian integrity.

Maramalai Adikal (Expert in tamil,Sanskrit & English and world history),Paavanar (well respected linguists of world order), Ka.Su.Pillai (renowned literary scholar)are cornered by devapriya and this clearly shows his fanatism for Brahmin supremacy.

Gone are the days that your treachery works twinkling. Your misinterpretations of indian history shall be perished under Indian ocean and parallely kumari kandam truths will come up.

Your Indian concept of "Vedhic Brahminism" will not work but Indian concept of Secularism and tamil concept of "Yathu Ure Yavarum Kelir" shall surely work in India.

Readers might have observed his misinterpretations from his own quotations.

f.s.gandhi

[indian224080]

Your Hindutva plank of degrading Britishers who gave education for masses of indians which was neglected by your "Pramma Theyam" period will no longer work, in the name of indian integrity.

Yup thats why EVR Supported the British Rule and wanted Indians (including Dravidians) to be slaves under british always. For this he treacherously gave the Dravidian color which no doubt flies high even today at Fort St. George. If it were not for Freedom struggle and not for 90% upper caste members of parliament in 1950 who voted for Reservation large section of Indian brethren wud still be downtrodden. Yes they wud be still be saying
Periyar Naamam Vaazhga!!!! (Oh may be in English? Who knows?)

[indian224080]

Adam is from tamil Aadu-u / Aadavan. Nova is from Tamil "Navai"-Ship. The flood story in Viviliam is based on Navaikkaaran-Naikan- later in tamil land.

Inthran, Varunan, Vishnu & Sivan never had root in Sanskrit.


Yes Tamil Land!!Cud you be specific on the boundaries of Tamil Land? Lets go from there.

Indra Varuna Vishnu and Shiva Tamil words? Wow!!!! I guess in few years Rig,Yajur,Sama,Atharva will become a Tamil Texts.

[Lambretta]

[tscii]Thanthai Periyar( Who broke the backbone of Vedhic Brahminism & started first social renaisance and revolutionary movement which is now followed by UP state Mulayam Singh Yadav & Maayawathi (one who open statue for Periyar in Luknow and last his CM post only due to this), Bihar Laloo,Anthra -Naidu, Karnanaka & Orissa -Janata dal and even by BJP ruled states Gujarat Sankar Singh Vaghela, UP -Kalyan Singh & Mathya Pradesh-Uma Bharathi(one who revolt against leadership accusing the heads as representatives of Vedhic Brahminism).
Periyar may hav broken the barrier of 'brahminism' but instead of abolishing casteism as a whole, he only left behind a barrier between Brs. & lower castes......And wat abt Periyar's comments on the chastity of women in Hinduism?? Wat was his reason to create a propaganda against tat at all?

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Lambretta,

This topic is not relevant to what you want to discuss. I wrote about periyar just to specify he is not an ordinary person cursed by hubbers like Devapriya.

We may discuss about it in relevant topic. I may have also difference about Periyar's view on Chastity.

He says, " a liberty given to a man should be equal to the liberty given to a woman by the society and the society in turn take equality the ways the men and women repay it"

i.e. when the man is allowed for remarrige the women also should be allowed. Both men and women should strict to the agreement of Marriage life and they should not violate it as far as the agreement exists.

f.s.gandhi

[Lambretta]

He says, " a liberty given to a man should be equal to the liberty given to a woman by the society and the society in turn take equality the ways the men and women repay it"
i.e. when the man is allowed for remarrige the women also should be allowed. Both men and women should strict to the agreement of Marriage life and they should not violate it as far as the agreement exists.
FSG,
Well, this isn't exactly wat I heard/read abt his views......it was more like he said it was ok for women to give up their chastity & run around 'loose' jus bcos there were men in society who did so.....in other words, it was advocating an "eye for an eye" philosophy, which is mainly y I was against his principles/ideas.
Neways, if there is a topic abt him in future we may discuss it all there......
Also btw, one request- plse don't accuse others who r of differnet views of having "love for brahminism" or remarks like tat....this wud only create further conflicts & digressions here!

[viLakkumaaru]

Also btw, one request- plse don't accuse others who r of differnet views of having "love for brahminism" or remarks like tat....this wud only create further conflicts & digressions here!

Is "love for brahmanism" a vedic past of pre islamic Arabia too?

[Uppuma]

[tscii:aff35081bf]fRIENDS,
EVR Said Tamil as Kattumirandi baashai. and his views of on Kural and Tholkappiyam as given by Devapriya in Kural Thread
Ofcourse knowing these E.V.Ramasamy Naicker of Dravidian Movement said- “ ¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Âý âÂì ÜÄ¢. â ¾÷Áò¨¾§Â ¾Á¢ú þÄ츽Á¡¸î ¦ºöРŢð¼ Á¡¦ÀÕõ ЧḢ.
¾¢ÕÅûÙÅý «ì¸¡Äò¾¢üÌ ²üÈ Å¨¸Â¢ø â ¸ÕòÐìÌ ¾Ã× ¦¸¡ÎìÌõ «ÇÅ¢ø ÀÌò¾È¢¨Åô ôüÈ¢ ¸Å¨Äô À¼¡Áø ¿£¾£ ÜÚõ ӨȢø ¾ÉÐ Á¾ ¯½÷§Â¡Î ²§¾¡ ÜÈ¢î ¦ºýÈ¡÷. ôì¸õ 7 ¾Á¢Øõ ¾Á¢ÆÕõ.
FSG you agree with this.
Pavanar, Appadurai all dated Vedas close to 1500 Bce.

FSG Will you link to single University of good repute to your BLabbaer dating of Vedas, and by the way fsg welcome back after acting a moderate bismala

[/tscii:aff35081bf]

[Lambretta]

Is "love for brahmanism" a vedic past of pre islamic Arabia too?
No idea.... :roll:

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Yup thats why EVR Supported the British Rule and wanted Indians (including Dravidians) to be slaves under british always. For this he treacherously gave the Dravidian color which no doubt flies high even today at Fort St. George. If it were not for Freedom struggle and not for 90% upper caste members of parliament in 1950 who voted for Reservation large section of Indian brethren wud still be downtrodden. Yes they wud be still be saying
Periyar Naamam Vaazhga!!!! (Oh may be in English? Who knows

You should know the reservations policy history.

1. In 1922 Justice party(Non-Brahmin movement) which ruled 'Chennai Maahaanam' (Anthra,Kerala,Tamilnadu,Karnataka) gave reservation to other backward classes & Scheduled tribes as 26 %.

2. In 1950 Dr.Ambetkar headed Contitutional law formation and gave 17% reservation for Scheduled casts & tribes and he could do only a priliminary law for reservation of other backward classes (satta Mun Varaivu).

3. In 1951 then Nehru govt. Tried to abolish that act giving reservation to OBCs. Thanthai Periyar lead a protesting movement in TamilNadu and there is no way that Nehru Govt. had to accept that act.

Based on that Mandal commission was formulated and its report put under drawer nearly 25 years and V.P.Singh govt. made it happen (The first non-Brahmin govt. as portrayed by The newspaper The Hindu)

Brahmins were educationally forward and not politically during 1950 and Non-Brahmins only prevailed.

This Terms forward,backward & Scheduled means "Educationally" and not economically.

Since educational backwardness(even in economically stout guys) was caused due to Social system of Four Varnas which never allowed masses to study knowledge, "Socially & Educationally" are the terms used to specify Backwardness.

It is not upper means great and Backward means lower.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Yes Tamil Land!!Cud you be specific on the boundaries of Tamil Land? Lets go from there.

Indra Varuna Vishnu and Shiva Tamil words? Wow!!!! I guess in few years Rig,Yajur,Sama,Atharva will become a Tamil Texts.[/quote]

Specify the period. Pre-historic or Post historic ? After all boundaries vary time to time. Indian boundary was not as of now before 1947 :!: .

If at all boundary is fixed and it makes no importance and the influence that the boundary makes with remaining world is important. England with small boundary overuled world the remains of their culture still left with all over the globle :!: .

For the words I quoted from 'History of tamils' of P.T.Srinivasa Iyengar who was head of tamil's fourth Sankam created by Ramanathapuram Pandithuraithevar. Visit my old posts in 'Tamil is elder to sanskrit thread'.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

[tscii:a5f8ca4fd4]fRIENDS,
EVR Said Tamil as Kattumirandi baashai. and his views of on Kural and Tholkappiyam as given by Devapriya in Kural Thread
Ofcourse knowing these E.V.Ramasamy Naicker of Dravidian Movement said- “ ¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Âý âÂì ÜÄ¢. â ¾÷Áò¨¾§Â ¾Á¢ú þÄ츽Á¡¸î ¦ºöРŢð¼ Á¡¦ÀÕõ ЧḢ.
¾¢ÕÅûÙÅý «ì¸¡Äò¾¢üÌ ²üÈ Å¨¸Â¢ø â ¸ÕòÐìÌ ¾Ã× ¦¸¡ÎìÌõ «ÇÅ¢ø ÀÌò¾È¢¨Åô ôüÈ¢ ¸Å¨Äô À¼¡Áø ¿£¾£ ÜÚõ ӨȢø ¾ÉÐ Á¾ ¯½÷§Â¡Î ²§¾¡ ÜÈ¢î ¦ºýÈ¡÷. ôì¸õ 7 ¾Á¢Øõ ¾Á¢ÆÕõ.
FSG you agree with this.
Pavanar, Appadurai all dated Vedas close to 1500 Bce.

FSG Will you link to single University of good repute to your BLabbaer dating of Vedas, and by the way fsg welcome back after acting a moderate bismala

[/tscii:a5f8ca4fd4]

I don't agree with above utterances as I don't agree with your quoting remote source,zooming it up either to solve your vandetta against tamil. We have analyse under what circumstances these utterances are made. Paavanar & Appaduraiyar relied on Aryan Invasion theory and spelt out those datings which is proved to be wrong now.

A good educationalist / decent observer will be as follows.

"KUNAM NADI KUTRAMUM NADI AVATTRUL
MIKAI NADI MIKKA KOLAL" - Valluvam

You belong to which category-all hubbers shall know from your postings :!:

Vedhas were collected & written during 100 CE. Visit 'Maxmuller Bhavan' in Delhi. Ayothidasar who is well known scholar in Sanskrit whose books are now adapted by Dravidian University, Kuppam also portrays this.

You can date oral traditions of Vedhas 15000 years or more than that without any proof.

You are well known for your treacherous incarnations-Avathars by forum hubbers. One praising each other. Even if you take 100 avatars of Vedhic pratogonists truth remains will be same.

Mis.bis_mala tarnished you much. She is a literary scholar whereas I am an Engineer. I am concerning historical aspects. She goes deep into literary aspects. Remaining is well known to the hubbers who know us.

f.s.gandhi

[bis_mala]

Hello Uppuma = Devapriya = Pavitra = Solomon = Ancheneya = PaulThomas.!! = MosesMohamedSolomon!!!

You have completed 7 avatars, you have three more? Take them on quickly please, your devotees can't wait indefinitely for you.

Just because you took 7 avatars (out of 10 available), do not think everybody in the forum takes avatars like you.

Thiru FSG sir is writing from Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. I am writing from South East Asia. Yet you got mixed up and you think we are the same persons. We are also of diffferent gender!! Our writing styles are also different. fsg sir has been quite thorough in his answers to you. Yet you never learnt anything.

You will probably know what we have been trying to tell you - IN YOUR LAST AVATAR. Until then go on and waste time.

[devapriya]

Friends,
Which of the Dravidian language group, is dated securely to have existed in pre- Christian era, is dated scientifically with the help of dated inscriptions or artifacts? The existence of Proto Dravidian language before say 3rd-4th centuries BC is purely based on conjectural inference. How a language, the existence of which is not known by any verifiable means for over three thousand years except in hypothesis, could be accepted as the language and that Sanskrit burrowed from it.

The very name Siva, Vishnu is not there in Sangam Lit.
The Sivalingam worship is in Vedas and not at all in SANGAM Lit.

As per the list of words given by Pavanar in his book Oppian mozinuul first Edition- The following words are Sanskrit and tamil alternate as advised him are as below:
Inthiran- Venthan
Chandiran- mathi
Aathi- muthal
antham- mudivu
Parvathi- malaimagal etc.,
Now giving false roots do not make anything.
Dr.K.Kalimuthu, Tamilnadu Speaker(Resigned) a Pavanar school scholar very clearly given that Inthiran is Vedic God and Pandigai is not Tamil and Boghi is not Tamil Festival as it is for Vedas.

Bismala/fsg- please substatiate your views. Roots do not mean anything.

[Lambretta]

Pandigai is not Tamil and Boghi is not Tamil Festival as it is for Vedas.
Yes Bhogi is celebrated herein AP too......not sure abt the origin of 'Pandigai' tho....

[indian224080]

Yes Tamil Land!!Cud you be specific on the boundaries of Tamil Land? Lets go from there.

Indra Varuna Vishnu and Shiva Tamil words? Wow!!!! I guess in few years Rig,Yajur,Sama,Atharva will become a Tamil Texts.

Specify the period. Pre-historic or Post historic ? After all boundaries vary time to time. Indian boundary was not as of now before 1947 :!: .

If at all boundary is fixed and it makes no importance and the influence that the boundary makes with remaining world is important. England with small boundary overuled world the remains of their culture still left with all over the globle :!: .

For the words I quoted from 'History of tamils' of P.T.Srinivasa Iyengar who was head of tamil's fourth Sankam created by Ramanathapuram Pandithuraithevar. Visit my old posts in 'Tamil is elder to sanskrit thread'.

f.s.gandhi[/quote]

Take any time (pre/post) and please explain.When according to ur view that the Dravidian country extending from North America to Japan and from Arctic ocean to Antartic ocean started decreasing. You mean to say that a Tamil King started fighting with Another king. Oh another tamil king started finding a new language in order to compete with the neighboring king? How did English develop? Does it mean English is a remote derivative of Tamil?
Can u exactly quote from Mr Srinivasa Iyengars book including Page numbers so that we others can take a look at it.

[mahadevan]

Which of the Dravidian language group, is dated securely to have existed in pre- Christian era, is dated scientifically with the help of dated inscriptions or artifacts? The existence of Proto Dravidian language before say 3rd-4th centuries BC is purely based on conjectural inference. How a language, the existence of which is not known by any verifiable means for over three thousand years except in hypothesis, could be accepted as the language and that Sanskrit burrowed from it.

You are asking the right questions, but against the wrong contender, the earliest physical evidence for Tamil inscriptions is 1000 BC but for sanskrit is 500 AD (if you know math, you can see that there is a diffrence of 1500 years)



The very name Siva, Vishnu is not there in Sangam Lit.
Agreed but the word siva neither does appear in the Rig, so what is your point ?


The Sivalingam worship is in Vedas and not at all in SANGAM Lit.

Here are you refering the 4 vedas ? if so can you provide some evidence ?

[indian224080]

You are asking the right questions, but against the wrong contender, the earliest physical evidence for Tamil inscriptions is 1000 BC but for sanskrit is 500 AD (if you know math, you can see that there is a diffrence of 1500 years)

Sources and the exact inscription please...If u can provide.... :o

Lies Lies More lies...!!!!! What a waste of space...
(courtesy: Idiappam)

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

For the dating of Adhichanallur urns inscriptions (1000 BCE) visit the following sites which were already given by Mr.Aravindhan in ‘Adhichanallur’ Thread.

About what the latest finds tell us:
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2213/stories/20050701000106500.htm
About the inscriptions found in the last round of excavations:
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2213/stories/20050701000307000.htm General background to the excavations:
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2213/stories/20050701000207200.htm“

"Inthiran, Varunan, Krishnan & Vishnu have NO roots in Sanskrit"

Full Details :
Pre-Aryan Tamil Culture – P.T. Srinivasa Iyengar, page 145

‘Chappiduthal’ and ‘Sirippu’ are not in literature. This does not mean they are tamil words. Here we have to apply root word-phonetical techniques to derive out the exact meaning. One of the modern phonetical techniques is shown by The.Po.Me. In his book ‘Tamil Ilakkiya Varalaaru’. Visit Tamil University Website. www.tamilvu.org. Essays portions. Hence non-availablitiy of any word in literature should not be taken as conclusion.

However the oldest words ‘El sadai’ & Sivan are available with tamil.

It seems already Miss. bis_mala explained this.

An Abstract from Maramalai Adigal’s ‘Tamilar Matham’ – Page 145 to 176

Sivan is the shrinked form of ‘Seyon’ in Tholkappiam. (Murugan is specified as Kanthazhi in Tholkappiam)

Another name is ‘Mukkannan’

Next to Tholkappiam old is Kaarikizhar’s Puranaanooru. The existence of kumari kandam is mentioned.

1. “Vada-athu Panipadu Neduvarai Vadakum
Then-Athu Thurkezhu KUMARI YIN THERKUM” – it continues,
“ Paniyiya Raththai Ninkudaya Munivar
MUKKAT CHELVAR nagarvalan cheyarke”
Kumariyin therku- South of Kumari-Kumarinadu.

2. Perunkadukkone wrote Paalai kali. In that
“ MUKKANNAN Mooveyilum”

Another name Sadayan.
“Imayavil Vankiya ERCHCHADAI Yanthanan”

Another name “Manimidattran”. In Paripadal
“ Manimidat rannanku”

‘El Sadai’ in Mesopotomian script has been found. El means surya-sun in tamil. Suriyan is reddish. Umayaval is Blue like Sea and sky. Hence, tamils named both of them husband & wife in combined form. The name El sadai should have gone by sea route to mesapatomia. Tamil Seyon-sivan is the earliest. In Hebrews- Jehovah, In Greeks-Zeus, In Romans-Jupithar. This proves the antiquity of that word. This further proves that the worship belongs to tamils.

Kadiyalur Uriththiran kannanar wrote Perumpanatruppadai.
In that,

“Knemizhikol konda Peruviran” is one phrase. ‘Knemizhikol’ is symbolized as present Linga. The origination of linkam is latest one as Siva+knemizhikam- sivalingam.

The above names & worship were copied in Sanskrit.

In Rig Vedha,

1.(Ema: Rutraya Thavase KABARTHINE Sayath Veeraya). ‘Kabarthine’ means ‘Sadai’.

2.“Api Siva” (10.92.9)

3. ‘Rudra’ does not have root in Sanskrit. ‘Uruthiram’ tamil turned ‘Rudra’

It must be noted ‘Nandhi’ is included in Sivan temples after Vedhic rituals of animal sacrifice is included in the worship. We can see old temples of having ‘Sivan’ only nowadays also. We can see sivan temples with Nanthi which was created during Pallavas period.
Moreover Sivan worship got triggered in North India when ‘Siva Sutras’ were translated by Kashmiri Pandits only during 1000 CE. Refer my post in Tamil’s elderiness…thread. Almost all the temples of ‘siva’ are in TamilNadu & Karnataka. ‘Thennadudaya sivane Potri’ is an example.

There are lot of stories in 'Upanishads' that siva worship was learnt by North Indians.

f.s.gandhi

[devapriya]

[tscii:901847bab3]Friends,

We have to see things objectively and not with emotions.

FSG, goes absolutely away from Tamil Grammer Rules and also all known methods of Science to put his assumptions.
Seyon does not mean Lord Siva- but only Lord Muruga, many quotes have been given in the past from Maraimalaiji and others. Secondly Siva the Vedic Rudra Siva adopted in Sangama Lit. is always called OF Blue in Color, and hence looking as Sivanthavan from later Lit. only confirms that your methods are Absloutely out of truth.
Maraimalai Aadigal’s said- Óì¸ñ½ý, º¨¼Âý, Á½¢Á¢¼üÈ¡ý ±ýÛõ ¾Á¢ú áü ¦ÀÂ÷¸Ç¡Öõ "¯Õò¾¢Ãý", "º¢Åý" ±ýÛõ żëü ¦ÀÂ÷¸Ç¡Öõ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ôÀð¼ ÓØÓ¾ü ¸¼×û º¢Å¦ÀÕÁ¡§É ±ýÀÐ «í¨¸Âí¸É¢ §À¡ø ¿ýÌ Å¢Ç¹¸¡ ¿¢ü̦Áý¸. -Àì 129 ¾Á¢Æ÷ Á¾õ. Maraimalaiar agrees here Siva from Sanskrit source
Sadai- cannot be Tamil word as per Tholkappiyam rules- as Sa cannot be a start of Tamil word, and it can be the Tamilised form of Jadai, as Tholkappiyar says leave Sanskrit letter and write in Tamilised form. (Vadasol- vadaeluthu Orie). So your quotes of Saddai proves for Sanskrit and not for Tamil.
Kumari- refers to the Kanyakumari and not the mythological Legendery now completely dropped Kumarikandam, which Satelite research and Oceanograpishts have confirmed of No submerged Land below Indu Maha Samudra and no Sangam Song or Silapathikaram really refers to Kumari Kandam fables. You quote that Tamil nadu extended upto Himalayas.
FSG-Please be Honest and use Ethics in discussion: Poeial Exaggaration be ignored to get History.
Tholkappiyam Payiram tells that Tamilnadu extended from Vengadam to Kumari. Now very clear analysis gives that Telugu words used in Tholkappiyam, and Sangam Lit . Silapathikaram (25:156;26:106) & Agananuru 213 &295 confirms the presence of Telugu and Kannada below Vindyas even. Telugu is certainly spoken from 1000BCE, and Kannada from 500 BCE and Maalayalam from 100CE as per Unanimity of Objective Scholars,and Friend Uppuma had posted Telugu’s claim to date it to 2000BCE ,in kumarikandam thread.

So Tamil was not even fully Spoken in the Southern Half fully.

Asoka wrote inscriptions in Prakrit all over India, confirming that Sanskrit’s branch was the most common Language all over India.

As for Your quotes of Manimidarran, Sadaiyan, etc., are the adopted forms from Rig Veda. Now the Scientifice truth on Siva’s etymology is..

Maraimalai Aadigal’s said- Óì¸ñ½ý, º¨¼Âý, Á½¢Á¢¼üÈ¡ý ±ýÛõ ¾Á¢ú áü ¦ÀÂ÷¸Ç¡Öõ "¯Õò¾¢Ãý", "º¢Åý" ±ýÛõ żëü ¦ÀÂ÷¸Ç¡Öõ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ôÀð¼ ÓØÓ¾ü ¸¼×û º¢Å¦ÀÕÁ¡§É ±ýÀÐ «í¨¸Âí¸É¢ §À¡ø ¿ýÌ Å¢Ç¹¸¡ ¿¢ü̦Áý¸. -Àì 129 ¾Á¢Æ÷ Á¾õ. Maraimalaiar agrees here Siva from Sanskrit source

Colin Renfrew, Professor of Archaeology at Cambridge, Archaeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins, Cambridge University Press, 1988,
”The words Shiva and Shambhu are not derived from the Tamil words civa (to redden, to become angry) and cembu (copper, the red metal), but from the Sanskrit roots si (therefore meaning “auspicious, gracious, benevolent, helpful, kind”) and sam (therefore meaning “being or existing for happiness or welfare, granting or causing happiness, benevolent, helpful, kind”), and the words are used in this sense only, right from their very first occurrence.”

There is no mention of Sivalinga worship in Sangam, later Tholkappiyam or to Manimekhalai period, and Siva is not looked as Chief of Gods in the normal course of Tholkaapiyam or Sangalm Lit.

WE have to go by the Internationally acknowledged and “well Established” facts by various International Universities and not by Highly Biased Scholars and again books from almost a Century back, such as PTS etc., Now every University dates Rig to 2000BCE, this itself is Geographically wrong as datas prove that- Saraswathi River has dried by 1900BCE, and its receding started by 2200 BCE. Where as Rig Veda-( the word Veda is from Sanskrit word Vidya- means Knowledge) talks Sarasvathi in several places as mighty river. Secondly Historical Linguistics plays very important helping role in dating. For Example- the word for What- entha,; this= intha; that- antha, None of this is in Tholkappiyam, Sangam and Tirukural. Irattai Kappiyam has it. Again the word- We Nangal- I –Nan are not in Sangam to Kural. The word Siva, Vishnu again is not available.
Like this Sanskrit was analysed and dating has been put as the most latest date of compilation could be 2000BCE etc.,

Today Most International Universities dropped calling Indus valley-Saraswathi river Civilisation as Dravidian, as every thing found were wrongly interpreted.

John Marshall remarked in 1931, “[THE HARAPPAN] RELIGION IS SO CHARACTERISTICALLY INDIAN AS HARDLY TO BE DISTINGUISHED FROM STILL LIVING HINDUISM.”

Colin Renfrew, again –(Archaeology and Language – the Puzzle of Indo-European Origins) : “IT IS DIFFICULT TO SEE WHAT IS PARTICULARLY NON-ARYAN ABOUT THE INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION.”
Kenoyer, Jonathan Mark, Ancient Cities of the Indus Valley Civilization (Karachi & Islamabad : Oxford University Press & American Institute of Pakistan Studies, 1998) –“MANY SCHOLARS HAVE TRIED TO CORRECT THIS ABSURD THEORY [OF AN ARYAN INVASION], BY POINTING OUT MISINTERPRETED BASIC FACTS, INAPPROPRIATE MODELS AND AN UNCRITICAL READING OF VEDIC TEXTS. HOWEVER, UNTIL RECENTLY, THESE SCIENTIFIC AND WELL-REASONED ARGUMENTS WERE UNSUCCESSFUL IN ROOTING OUT THE MISINTERPRETATIONS ENTRENCHED IN THE POPULAR LITERATURE.”
ON Tamil Writing Developments- The Tamil writing we have developed from Asoka-Brahmi, this is called Asoka Brahmi, but certainly in used earlier also, and also another called Karoshti, in use for Pragrit, a branch of Sanskrit. Of course we then come to Potters Graffiti and Adichanallur urns. The Potters Graffiti has been well analysed and found need not represent Scripts, but just pictograms. Adichanallur, the link given are preliminary – we await firstly the Radio-carbon 14 dating and a Consensus on its writing, better wait till then.
As for Brahmi Tamil inscriptions which start around 200BCE or earlier, the earliest use predominantly Prakrit endings and prakrit words.
The Brahmi Tamil writings are classified as
1. Brahmi Tamil, just adopt Asoka and few additions for special tamil letters as za
2. Brahmi Tamil-2, more changes than Asoka’s with more Tamil wordsl.
3. Brahmi Tamil- Pulli system- this last one follows Tholkappiyam eluththuathikarm and comes around 100CE OR LATER, there by clearly giving the dating of Tholkappiyam close to last half of BCE Ist Cen, i.e., 50BCE.
This are “ well established” and fully accepted by Internationally acknowledged Scholars and Epigraphers on whose name most Dechiphering of Brahmi scripts remains. Next comes is like Indus valley Pictograms, when Father.Heras, to Potters Graffiti collector Dr.Gurumurthy all accept its written in Right-to-left, any attempt to read from Left to right reading whether as Sanskrit or Tamil are clear forgeries. Hence please do not quote Forgeries.
Now you quote few words saying Mr.PTS says Those words do not have Sanskrit roots, these are incorrect statements and I am not giving roots, because Your position is only to reject them as you did when the Correct and Exact root for Veda is given as well accepted by World, only proving you do not want Truths.
Now YOU quote Tho.Po.Mi. Friend, I CAN also refer to him with ease, also m any Scholars- “Á¢ø ±ýÀÐ ÁäÃõ ±É ż¦Á¡Æ¢ìÌ ¦ºýÈÀÊ Å¼¦Á¡Æ¢Â¢Ä¢ÕóÐõ ¯Â¢Õûû¨Å¡ö ÅÆ츢ø þÕó¾ ¦º¡ü¸û ¾Á¢Æ¢ø ÅóÐ ¾¡§É ÅÆíÌõ. þó¾¢Â Á¾ ´Õ¨ÁôÀÎ ±Øó¾ §À¡Ð ÀÄ ¦º¡ü¸û ¦À¡Ð ¦º¡ü¸Ç¡¸¢ Å¢ð¼É. Òò¾÷, «Õ¸÷, ºí¸õ-þ¨Å¦ÂøÄ¡õ ºí¸¸¡Äò¾¢ø ¾Á¢Æ¢ø ÒÌóÐûÇÉ. À¢È ¿¡ðÎ ¦À¡Õ¨Ç ¿£ì¸ ÓÊ¡¾Ð §À¡§Ä þÅü¨ÈÔõ ¾ûÇ¢ ¨Åì¸ ÓÊ¡Ð. ¾Á¢Æ¢ü ÒÌó¾ ż¦º¡ü¸¨Ç ±ñ½¢¼ ÓÊ¡Ð, 2000ìÌõ §Áø þÕìÌõ ¦¾¡¼÷¸¨Ç þí§¸ ¸½ì¸¢ø ¦¸¡ûÇÅ¢ø¨Ä. “ From Katturai- ¾Á¢Æ¢ø À¢È ¦Á¡Æ¢ ¦º¡ü¸û. Book ¾Á¢Øõ À¢È ÀñÀ¡Îõ Àì-66,67.
So importand words as Sangam, saddai cannot be Tamil.
Now yourself, Idiyappam etc., Use the very regularly- the Techniques used by Tamil Politicians- attack personally or by caste, U.Ve.Saminathaaiyer- who retrieved us Sangam and Tholkappiyam, Iravatham Mahadevan who deciphered Brahmi Scripsts, Writer Sujatha who is cooperating in a big way in developing Tamil computer Language and also Tamil words for Scientific Terms, Thozar- Vanamamalai who were all regarded very high for integrity by Caste, because they follow Scientific Research Truths and not your Superstitions.
When Entire Scholarly Epigraphers and Linguists accept the Truths, and Dating of Vedas to 2000 BCE, Your quoting view meaningless biased authors with Highly Partial attitude only proves your position does not have Truths. You have been repeatedly claiming that Foreign Universities now acknowledge your claims on Tamil, every Foreign University has its website – Please link them.

The method of Paavanar, Maraimalai Aadigal etc., no doubt they were great knowledged, but with highly biased and partial views- spread venom among tamils, using the Discredited Aryan invasion Theory. Now it is clear, with DNA AND other proves Aryans are the natives of India, if that term has any meaning. There are lot of absurdities in Paavanar and others, but I want To Ignore.

FSG is doing the same as Thani Tamil trickery as I quote-
// Almost all the temples of ‘siva’ are in TamilNadu & Karnataka. ‘Thennadudaya sivane Potri’ is an example.//
Muslim Invasion to north India started as early as 8th Cen. And They have demolished all the major temples, which is History. Moreover Sangam Tamil Lit, to Bakthi Lit. all tells us that Siva is Vedic God, and his abode is Himalayas- Mount Kailash, and again Kasi –Varanasi is regarded highly in this Lit. Manickavasagar’s-// Thennadudaya sivane Potri’” is from 11th Cen CE, why give it when we talk bout BCE 3000 Vedas.

THolkappiyam to Manimekhalai, all says it derived ideas from Sanskrit and Vedas and Brahmins, you misread and Ignore Right Authorities and falsify the Truth, none of these are acceptable in any educated forum.

Please stop attacking any body with Casteism and their acceptance of Historical “Well Established” notions as Vedic Stooges. All this do prove you do not have any substance, please substantiate with Proper Acceptable Neutral Scholars and upto date views with University web site links.

As for this Thread- Vedic Past of Arabia, it is getting more clear that Vedic world extended up to Egypt and beyond, why FSG, Bismalas has a problem in accepting that Indian culture was prevalent everywhere.

Devapriya




[/tscii:901847bab3]

[mahadevan]

[tscii:d5f1fbdb87]Friends,

We have to see things objectively and not with emotions.

Solomon, goes absolutely away from Tamil Grammer Rules and also all known methods of Science to put his assumptions.
Seyon does not mean Lord Muruga- but only Lord Siva, many quotes have been given in the past by others. Secondly Rudra is the Tamil Siva adopted in vedic Lit.

Sadai- predated Tholkappiyam , as it cannot be Tamil word as per Tholkappiyam rules- as Sa cannot be a start of Tamil word, and it can be a term used prior to Tholkappiyam , the sanskritized form is Jadai.
Kumari- refers to the mythological Legendery Kumarikandam, which recent research and Oceanograpishts have confirmed and Sangam Song and Silapathikaram really refers to Kumari Kandam .
Tholkappiyam Payiram tells that Tamilnadu extended from Vengadam to Kumari. Now very clear analysis gives that tamil words used in Tholkappiyam are used in Telugu language , and Sangam Lit . Silapathikaram (25:156;26:106) & Agananuru 213 &295 confirms the migration of of Tamil words to telugu and Kannada. Telugu is certainly spoken from 1000BCE, and Kannada from 500 BCE and Maalayalam from 100CE as per Unanimity of Objective Scholars,and Friend Uppuma had posted Telugu’s claim to date it to 2000BCE ,in kumarikandam thread. So by the same logic Tamil was widely sopken even before 2000BCE


Asoka wrote inscriptions in Prakrit all over India, confirming that Sanskrit was not considered worthy for such a cause. It couls also mean that sanskrit was not well formed from the prakrits and Tamil.

Friends it is clear that Manimidarran, Sadaiyan, etc., are the adopted in Rig Veda from tamil. Now the Scientifice truth on Siva’s etymology is..

For Tamil Siva, the root is Red. For the vedic Rudra the root is red (Rud is the root for Red in most of the IE group of languages), it is clearly amazing to see why the sanskritist that time attempted to translate rather than transliterate as they often did with most other Tamil words in the vedas.

Solomon Wrote:
Colin Renfrew, Professor of Archaeology at Cambridge, Archaeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins, Cambridge University Press, 1988,
”The words Shiva and Shambhu are not derived from the Tamil words civa (to redden, to become angry) and cembu (copper, the red metal), but from the Sanskrit roots si (therefore meaning “auspicious, gracious, benevolent, helpful, kind”) and sam (therefore meaning “being or existing for happiness or welfare, granting or causing happiness, benevolent, helpful, kind”), and the words are used in this sense only, right from their very first occurrence.”

Prof Colin Renfrew can say whatever he wants and so can the others. What we can accept we do. What we cannot, well sorry. There is no such thing as "He is a prof, so he must be believed". An Islamic prof said that Islam is the truth. So according to you, since he is a prof, you would readily become a Muslim and give up your research on anthaNar, iyer, vEtham etc. I learnt from other professors and not Colin Renfrew. Colin Renfrew is not my prof. Sorry.

There is no mention of Sivalinga worship in vedas, later extensions or to later vedic period, and Siva is not looked as Chief of Gods in the normal(and even the abnormal) course any of the vedas.

WE have to go by the Internationally acknowledged and “well Established” facts by various International Universities and not by Highly Biased Scholars and again books from almost a Century back., Now no University of any worth dates Rig to before 200BCE, this itself is Geographically(sorry chronologically) wrong as data prove that- a River has dried by 1900BCE, and its receding started by 2200 BCE. Where as Rig Veda- talks Sarasvathi in several places as mighty river, so saraswathi is not definetly a very old river it is probably younger then Cauvery . Secondly Historical Linguistics plays very important helping role in dating. For Example- the word for What- entha,; this= intha; that- antha, None of this is in Tholkappiyam, Sangam and Tirukural. Irattai Kappiyam has it. Again the word- We Nangal- I –Nan are not in Sangam to Kural. The word Siva, Vishnu again is not available in vedas.
Like this Tamil was analysed and dating has been put as the most latest date of compilation could be 2000BCE etc., (do not dare to ask me a question on that,because I am writing like solomon)

Today Most International Universities dropped calling Indus valley-Saraswathi river Civilisation as anything to do with vedic, as every crooked attempt to link them has been exposed.

John Marshall remarked in 1931, “[THE HARAPPAN] RELIGION IS SO CHARACTERISTICALLY INDIAN AS HARDLY TO BE DISTINGUISHED FROM STILL LIVING HINDUISM.” thus he clearly elucidates that modern hinduism came from Tamil and not from vedas.

Colin Renfrew, again –(Archaeology and Language – the Puzzle of Indo-European Origins) : “IT IS DIFFICULT TO SEE WHAT IS PARTICULARLY NON-ARYAN ABOUT THE INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION.” because the aryans have shamelessly adopted all the good aspects of the inuds valley people, Tamils
Kenoyer, Jonathan Mark, Ancient Cities of the Indus Valley Civilization (Karachi & Islamabad : Oxford University Press & American Institute of Pakistan Studies, 1998) –“MANY SCHOLARS HAVE TRIED TO CORRECT THIS ABSURD THEORY [OF AN ARYAN INVASION], BY POINTING OUT MISINTERPRETED BASIC FACTS, INAPPROPRIATE MODELS AND AN UNCRITICAL READING OF VEDIC TEXTS. HOWEVER, UNTIL RECENTLY, THESE SCIENTIFIC AND WELL-REASONED ARGUMENTS WERE UNSUCCESSFUL IN ROOTING OUT THE MISINTERPRETATIONS ENTRENCHED IN THE POPULAR LITERATURE.” (So what is the POINT)

Now please do not ask me 'How all that I have written is related to vedic past of arabia ?' I am afterall writing in Solomons's ishtyle
Devathidevapriya [/tscii:d5f1fbdb87]

[dsath]

Well well, none of us can know for sure accurately what happened and when in the past, unless we can time travel and see for ourselves first hand. We can just propose our theories and according to the development of science and technology of the times of the proposal, it gets accepted or rejected. We can get most of these conclusion if we take out the emotional quotient, personal likes and prejudices and instead take into account factors such as archeological evidence, DNA material and science & technology (like carbon dating) . We might derive a theory that may not be farther away from the truth.
In this thread there are extremes and this might prevent both sides from seeing the truth.
Arabia or rather Middle East is the birth place of many major religions that are followed by a majority of the world population. Hinduism and Buddhism are two of the few religions that are believed to be born outside Middle East. Trying to prove that pre Islamic Arabia was Vedic might prove that wrong and determine that almost all world religions came from that region. Is that what you really set out to prove?
Who knows it may be right, for Middle East is the cradle of civilization.

[indian224080]

Trying to prove that pre Islamic Arabia was Vedic might prove that wrong and determine that almost all world religions came from that region. Is that what you really set out to prove?


We are not proving that Arabia is a BirthPlace of Hinduism. We are out to prove there could be a Vedic Past of the present Islamic Arabia.

Also even if Arabia were the birthplace of Hinduism we have to accept it.

[dsath]

[tscii:1a543bf7c6]Middle East has been the birth place of the earliest civilization. So if the concepts of Hinduism have come from Middle East so be it. Also I believe that what we understand as Hinduism today is an amalgamation of years of influence from all over the world.

What exactly is Vedic? It may depend on the definition whether Arabia had any Vedic elements in its history.
Also after the earliest of early civilization gave way to new ones, the one major shift we see in Middle East is a shift from pluralism to monotheism. Be it Jewish, Christianity or Islam it all attributes to one God, whereas the Vedas don’t.

One controversial theory could be that some groups in Middle East which could not accept the new shift in religious practice could have opted for migration (which I think humans do with amazing success in the whole of animal kingdom) where they can follow what they believe and that place was South Asia. :roll:

I have read a lot about Spencer Well’s genetic research which proves to some extent that India is peopled by humans from many parts of the world, stating from Australia’s aboriginals, to certain tribes in Middle East, Central Asia and of course our mother or rather Father land Africa. :D So maybe it can be evidence to the above stated theory.
Dsath
[/tscii:1a543bf7c6]

[bis_mala]

Well well, none of us can know for sure accurately what happened and when in the past, unless we can time travel and see for ourselves first hand. We can just propose our theories and according to the development of science and technology of the times of the proposal, it gets accepted or rejected. We can get most of these conclusion if we take out the emotional quotient, personal likes and prejudices and instead take into account factors such as archeological evidence, DNA material and science & technology (like carbon dating) . We might derive a theory that may not be farther away from the truth.
In this thread there are extremes and this might prevent both sides from seeing the truth.

A very balanced view and statement. I commend the writer for it.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:16fa89c997]Devapriya wrote:

//Sadai- cannot be Tamil word as per Tholkappiyam rules- as Sa cannot be a start of Tamil word, and it can be the Tamilised form of Jadai, as Tholkappiyar says leave Sanskrit letter and write in Tamilised form. (Vadasol- vadaeluthu Orie). So your quotes of Saddai proves for Sanskrit and not for Tamil. //


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«ôÀÊ º¸Ãõ «È§Å ÅáР±ýÚ Å¡¾¢Îž¡É¡ø, ºí¸ þÄ츢Âí¸Ç¢ø º¸Ãì ¸¢ÇÅ¢¸û ¯ûÇÉÅ¡ø, þù Å¢Ä츢Âí¸Ù즸øÄ¡õ Óý§À ¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Âõ þÂüÈôÀð¼Ð ±ýÚ ¦À¡ÕûÀÎõ. þ¨¾§Â ¦Á¡Æ¢Â¢Âø ±Ø¾¢Â §ÀẢâÂ÷ Dr º£É¢Å¡ºÛõ ÜÈ¢ÔûÇ¡÷. ¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Âõ Ã¢ì §Å¾õ §¾¡ýÈ¡Óý §¾¡ýȢ áø ±ýÚ Á¨ÈÁ¨ÄÂʸÙõ ÜÈ¢ÔûÇ¡÷. º¨¼ ¾Á¢ú¡ø ¬¸§Å ƒ¼¡ ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø ÅÕõ ±øÄ¡ ż áø¸Ùõ ¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Âò¾¢üÌô À¢ó¾¢Â¨Å ±ýÀÐõ ´Õ Å¡¾Á¡Ìõ.

º¨¼Âý, º¢Åý ±ýÀÉ ¾Á¢§Æ. ºÁŠ¸¢Õ¾ò¾¢üÌ þɦÁ¡Æ¢¸Ç¡¸¢Â þ󧾡 ³§Ã¡ôÀ¢Â ¦Á¡Æ¢¸Ç¢ø º¢Åý, º¨¼Âý ±ýÀ¾üÌò ¦¾¡¼÷Ò¨¼Â ¦º¡ü¸û ¯ûÇÉÅ¡? þø¨Ä¦ÂýÈ¡ø þ¨Å ¾Á¢ú¡ü¸û.

I will take on the other aspects from Solomon and any of his eight incarnations as and when time permits. He is forever there advancing his familiar arguments - replied many times all over. So what's the hurry to reply to his arguments...?[/tscii:16fa89c997]

PS. Readers please check his citations as Solomon has been caught before by Idiappan for quoting wrongly (misrepresentation). I too remember querying him once on the accuracy of his quotes.

[dsath]

[tscii:09cc5ec9b8]Thanks Sivamala for your kind words. :D
History is fascinating and interesting and my personal curiosity about history lead me to this Hub. Not only Indian but Roman and Greek (esp Spartan) are also my favorites.

The sad thing about ancient Indian history is that we are not able to dig out facts as facts. Our sensitiveness clouds us making sound judgments and hypothesis. Any archeological discovery or time framing is not without controversy. :(

Different view points are always welcome but they should be devoid of emotions.

Why can’t we put things in perspective and dig out information for the sake of information and nothing else?
Things like you Aryans – you Dravidians (which is unfortunately predominant in this section) and the whole of India was once Vedic ------ or Dravidian are a serious put off for history buffs like me.

If we can discuss history just for the pure pleasure of it we might be able to think beyond Vedic, Dravidian, X, Y or Z.
Well these are a ramblings of a history buff…………..
Dsath[/tscii:09cc5ec9b8]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:d7ebe10ad0]
Why can’t we put things in perspective and dig out information for the sake of information and nothing else?
Things like you Aryans – you Dravidians (which is unfortunately predominant in this section) and the whole of India was once Vedic ------ or Dravidian are a serious put off for history buffs like me

In Malaysia, an Indian old man used to turn up at a certain Police Station every evening. the (mostly) Malay officers on duty recognize him readily. All that the Indian wanted to do was to make a report of the loss of his son (died in an accident). After a while, the officers learned how to handle him. They just gave him a piece of paper, gave him some coffee, told him "don't worry, we'll investigate..."; after the police coffee the man went off, sometimes crying and at other times laughing........It's still happening.....!!

Similarly, after sometime, others and I learned how to handle them. You give them the balanced view, they feel so sad, sometimes so mad, sometimes utterly useless. When you give a counter argument, they become peaceful and quiet for sometime.

The hub did not want Aryan - Dravidian stuff. But now even the moderators seem to have adjusted themselves. Devapriya wants to prove that there was Vedic culture in Arabia, there were Brahmins during Sangam Age etc. or wants to hear opposing views and evidence. When you say no and argue, they are happy. After some time, they'll return with a bit more for you.....Life goes on like that!!

They are really enjoying themselves...Just close one eye!
[/tscii:d7ebe10ad0]

[indian224080]

[tscii:37905073db]Thanks Sivamala for your kind words. :D
History is fascinating and interesting and my personal curiosity about history lead me to this Hub. Not only Indian but Roman and Greek (esp Spartan) are also my favorites.

The sad thing about ancient Indian history is that we are not able to dig out facts as facts. Our sensitiveness clouds us making sound judgments and hypothesis. Any archeological discovery or time framing is not without controversy. :(

Different view points are always welcome but they should be devoid of emotions.

Why can’t we put things in perspective and dig out information for the sake of information and nothing else?
Things like you Aryans – you Dravidians (which is unfortunately predominant in this section) and the whole of India was once Vedic ------ or Dravidian are a serious put off for history buffs like me.

If we can discuss history just for the pure pleasure of it we might be able to think beyond Vedic, Dravidian, X, Y or Z.
Well these are a ramblings of a history buff…………..
Dsath[/tscii:37905073db]
Dear Dsath,
If you probably look through the various pages in the forum you can cleverly find out that some people have only one job. Bash the Vedas! and Other community. Not to mention Some vague proofs of Sanskrit descended from Tamil and that Tamil stretched from North America to Japan and from Arctic to Antartica. These kind of baseless theories are propagated here by some enthusiastics.
Well the Moderators have learned to live up with that and so the forumers.
Regards
Indian224080.

[dsath]

Oops i don't want to tigger any controversy. Just wanted to explore some ancient Indian history.
Please continue your discussions and i will withdraw and thanks for responding to my posts.
cheers
Dsath.

[bis_mala]

If you probably look through the various pages in the forum you can cleverly find out that some people have only one job. Bash the Vedas! and Other community. Not to mention Some vague proofs of Sanskrit descended from Tamil and that Tamil stretched from North America to Japan and from Arctic to Antartica. These kind of baseless theories are propagated here by some enthusiastics.
Well the Moderators have learned to live up with that and so the forumers.

Yea yea, continue to enjoy yourselves, by all means!!

Huh! Some wouldn't let me converse with a newbie friend even for a few seconds....! So jealous....

[stranger]

Tamil stretched from North America to Japan and from Arctic to Antartica.

So you are introducing yourself here????

If I were you I would talk about myself.

Why dont you introduce yourself as a "thamizh rat" at the first place??!! :twisted:

[bis_mala]

Seyon does not mean Lord Siva- but only Lord Muruga, many quotes have been given in the past from Maraimalaiji and others. Secondly Siva the Vedic Rudra Siva adopted in Sangama Lit. is always called OF Blue in Color, and hence looking as Sivanthavan from later Lit. only confirms that your methods are Absloutely out of truth.


SeyyOn could have meant Sivan. Seyyon could have meant Lord Murugan. Seyyon could have meant both. On what basis are you able to conclude one is right and the other is wrong. You and all those university barrels (not barons) are sitting in your arm chairs thousands of years away from the event in consideration
The only evidence that is reliable is the examination of root words. Just like when clinical examinations do not reveal what sickness you are suffering from, the surgeon will have to cut you up somewhere and see the inside.

The root chE means red, righteous.

All these gods were Dravidian and were adopted by the settlers in north India.

[bis_mala]

Asoka wrote inscriptions in Prakrit all over India, confirming that Sanskrit’s branch was the most common Language all over India

Colonial Indian linguistics wrongly believed without evidence that all Indian languages were degraded forms of the merely liturgical Sanskrit, a fantasy in academic cover. The hangover persists.

The word `'Sanskrit' does not occur anywhere in the Vedas. whereas the word Tamiz occurs in Tolkappiyam itself. The Vedic language was Chandasa. Panini wrote his grammar for Chandasa and not the liturgical '`Sanskrit'. Sanskrit did not even exist at the time of the Buddha.

Ramayana, written in the years ACE refers to Sanskrit and that was when the liturgical language was developed.

All 30 4th century BC inscriptions by the Mauryan King Ashoka are in Prakrit and not in Sanskrit. . The script utilised is not ' Devanagari, but Brahmi script, while 2 inscriptions are in Kharoshtri. They are in various Prakrits and some in Afghanistan are in Greek and Aramaic.


Sanskrit is not Prakrit and vice versa. Sanskrit is a recently developed language and is less than 2000 years old. It cannot be compared to Tamil which is the oldest or one of the oldest language(s) in India. Prakrits were natural languages that pre-existed indepenently all over the north. They were the vada dravida languages which together with Tamiz supplied the raw materials used to build Sanskrit.

[thenRalkAththu]

Tamil stretched from North America to Japan and from Arctic to Antartica.
Why dont you introduce yourself as a "thamizh rat" at the first place??!! :twisted:
The Indian pRAT can not be a Tamiz because he wrote [tscii:675005634d] ÁÄ instead of Á¡Ä¡ [/tscii:675005634d]

[thenRalkAththu]

[tscii:f64e78aa5c]
Asoka wrote inscriptions in Prakrit all over India, confirming that Sanskrit’s branch was the most common Language all over India.

Where all over in India? Did he write that in Sanskrit? And what is "all over India?[/tscii:f64e78aa5c]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:4f307a2169]Devapriya wrote: //Maraimalai Aadigal’s said- Óì¸ñ½ý, º¨¼Âý, Á½¢Á¢¼üÈ¡ý ±ýÛõ ¾Á¢ú áü ¦ÀÂ÷¸Ç¡Öõ "¯Õò¾¢Ãý", "º¢Åý" ±ýÛõ żëü ¦ÀÂ÷¸Ç¡Öõ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ôÀð¼ ÓØÓ¾ü ¸¼×û º¢Å¦ÀÕÁ¡§É ±ýÀÐ «í¨¸Âí¸É¢ §À¡ø ¿ýÌ Å¢Ç¹¸¡ ¿¢ü̦Áý¸. -Àì 129 ¾Á¢Æ÷ Á¾õ. Maraimalaiar agrees here Siva from Sanskrit source //

Here the poster seems to reject AdigaL's view that sadaiyan is Tamiz whilst he appears to the reader to rely on AdigaL to claim º¢Åý to be Sanskrit. Even if Adigal had been quoted accurately, żëü¦ÀÂ÷ is not the same as saying that the word is of Sanskrit etymology. Similarly for the term ¯Õò¾¢Ãý. If AdigaL wanted to say that these words were Sanskrit, he would have said so directly. "żëü¦ÀÂ÷ simply means that the terms existed in books composed or written in the North. Some names from Tamil books are claimed by Sannskritists to be theirs. If being found in a book is taken as the proof of its etymology, it would simply be absurd. Furthermore, the paragraph quoted does not purport per se to deal with the etymology of words.

I do not have the book at the time of my posting to check but it seems redundant to say that sivan is sivaperumaan; if the word sivan was found in that form in the books of the north, then it should refer to sivaperuman without any doubt.
The point here is that the paragraph quoted might have been erroneously rendered by a third party. It also goes against AdigaL's known view that Sivan is a Tamil word (as reported by the late Dr Rasamaanickanaar and the late MV VeNugopalap Pillai, who were Tamil scholars.)

For reasons stated, the para cited has to be rejected.[/tscii:4f307a2169]

[stranger]

The Indian pRAT can not be a Tamiz because he wrote [tscii:bb8ac491dc] ÁÄ instead of Á¡Ä¡ [/tscii:bb8ac491dc]

Lie is their only and best investment in the hub!

They never understand that they can never fool a thamizh!

[tscii:bb8ac491dc] ÓºøÀ¢Êì¸¢È ¿¡¨Â ãﺢ À¡÷ò¾¡ ¦¾Ã¢Â¡Ð! :roll: [/tscii:bb8ac491dc]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:1faa8b0a2d]
Colin Renfrew, Professor of Archaeology at Cambridge, Archaeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins, Cambridge University Press, 1988,
//”The words Shiva and Shambhu are not derived from the Tamil words civa (to redden, to become angry) and cembu (copper, the red metal), but from the Sanskrit roots si (therefore meaning “auspicious, gracious, benevolent, helpful, kind”) and sam (therefore meaning “being or existing for happiness or welfare, granting or causing happiness, benevolent, helpful, kind”), and the words are used in this sense only, right from their very first occurrence//

With little or no Tamil knowledge and having consulted for that reason a pro-Sans scholar in India or in the oriental studies department of the University, this was how far Prof Renfrew could go. He was misdirected to the word: si in Skrt.

However, clearly he had not realised that si (sanskrit) is from Tamiz siir meaning “auspicious, gracious, benevolent, helpful, kind" as he had described. He probably also believed in MST and as the title of his book suggests, struggling to solve the puzzle of the Indo-European origin. It will be no puzzle once he embraces the Dravidian as the world's proto-language. He failed to realize that Skrt was an invented liturgical language of the priests of India who themselves come from different linguistic groups probably with widely varying DNA pictures.[/tscii:1faa8b0a2d]

[indian224080]

The Indian pRAT can not be a Tamiz because he wrote [tscii:e345fa281d] ÁÄ instead of Á¡Ä¡ [/tscii:e345fa281d]

Lie is their only and best investment in the hub!

They never understand that they can never fool a thamizh!

[tscii:e345fa281d] ÓºøÀ¢Êì¸¢È ¿¡¨Â ãﺢ À¡÷ò¾¡ ¦¾Ã¢Â¡Ð! :roll: [/tscii:e345fa281d]

I am not able to read as i dont have the font installed but anyway i think u referred to my tamil slang. Anyway i need not fool you. Tamils like us are getting fooled since as late as 1920's...

[happyindian]

Sad that good posts always turn into "greatness" posts. What's so "great" abt anyone (irrespective of dravidian, aryan, indian, chinese, caucasian or whatever) anyway. Ask your mind why do you need to be "great"? Most of the times (we don't like to accept it though) we are not as great as we like to think we are :) If each one of us accepts we are from the "human race" earth can surely be heaven instead of the hell we ourselves are responsible for making.

===============================================

I had a good laugh at this :shock: :lol: : (no pun intended please).

Jaya nominated for Nobel Prize
[ Tuesday, March 14, 2006 09:53:59 pmPTI ]
CHENNAI: World Federation of Tamil Youth (WFTY) on Tuesday said it has nominated Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Jayalalithaa for the Nobel Peace Prize, 2006.

The federation has nominated Jayalalithaa's name from India, Sharjah and the US, for her "dedicated efforts in ushering Peace, Performance, Progressiveness, Productivity, Partnership and Prosperity for the people of the state during the last five years," its president Dr Vijay G Prabhakar said.

"We would also be celebrating April 14, the Tamil New Year as 'Selvi J Jayalalithaa day' in 15 countries, highlighting the progress of Tamil Nadu under her leadership," he said.

The federation's India chapter president Dr R Mylvaganan presented a DVD titled "J Governance" produced by the organisation.

[happyindian]

Bis_Mala, just a doubt & a request:

Doubt:
Plz elaborate on the origins of Tholkappiyam and Agathiyam? [Just my curiosity. Some of your posts are v.gd & thot u r the best person 2 ask.]

Request:
Kindly do not make statements as, " He failed to realize that Skrt was an invented liturgical language of the priests of India who themselves come from different linguistic groups probably with widely varying DNA pictures."

It leads ppl to believe that "widely varying DNA picture" is not possible in so-called "Dravidians". The truth is contrary to your statement. Perhaps it is better for us to deal with subjects we know best instead of making biased "intellectual" guesses (no offence meant, if any perceived by you then sorry). If you like to trust historical and literary works so be it, if others (like me) wud rather rely on genetic evidence let us be.

[dsath]

Sad that good posts always turn into "greatness" posts. What's so "great" abt anyone (irrespective of dravidian, aryan, indian, chinese, caucasian or whatever) anyway. Ask your mind why do you need to be "great"? Most of the times (we don't like to accept it though) we are not as great as we like to think we are :) If each one of us accepts we are from the "human race" earth can surely be heaven instead of the hell we ourselves are responsible for making.


Good one.Couldn't disagree with that line of thinking.........

[stranger]

* It leads ppl to believe that "widely varying DNA picture" is not possible in so-called "Dravidians".

*The truth is contrary to your statement. .

What is the TRUTH?! :twisted:

It seems you are the ONLY ONE who knows it?

Would you mind sharing that???

Or we should pay you some royalty??? :lol:

[happyindian]

Stranger, I suggest u read up a wee bit on population genetics (try some simple books on amazon to help you with some basic understanding on this stuff).

What seems like a joke / a passing fad / "greatness" brownie point to u is no joke to many...

Look around n u will c hundreds of thousands of ppl working world-wide studying human genetics, population migration patters, phylogeny, immune responses..what not...what for? Certainly not to score one "race" over the other"...Cultures will always come and go...at diff points in time diff cultures enjoy greater patronage than the rest...like the cycle of time....whats popular 2day is not tomorrow. No one can ever say one set of humans are better than the others. Life is always complementary...

The more u read, u wud know its hard to understand what "race" among humans is all abt in the first place.

Its better for all of us to think on terms like "human race" esp since there r better things 2 worry abt like emerging diseases; rather than harping on past "glory' (which i'd rather call human achievement...always think IF NOT U / ME / US, SOMEONE ELSE WILL discover stuff anyway..)..

[stranger]

try some simple books on amazon to help you with some basic understanding on this stuff

Sorry, I dont go to amazon to learn about basics.

Try me with few references in standard journals such as science and nature!

Dont underestimate anybody's qualification.

Where do you want to start from?

From the valency of C, H, N, O and P and S or where else :?:

[Ronnie The Dutch]

From the valency of C, H, N, O and P and S or where else :?:

Hey Happy Hindi,

though the capital letters may look like a part of romanic alphabet it is not!

Stranger when the happy Hippo is done with the valency we should take it further to quarcks and co.

[mahadevan]

Happy Indian
All that Bismala said was people in North India are likely to be genetically more variant than the southereners, there is a hell a lot of scientific evidence for this. South was historically more immune to invasions, while the north was invaded in waves by the aryans, alexanders army, the muslims and the others, the south was relatively less impacted. This is seen as the reason for the greater genetic diversity in north.


Look around n u will c hundreds of thousands of ppl working world-wide studying human genetics, population migration patters, phylogeny, immune responses..what not...what for? Certainly not to score one "race" over the other"...Cultures will always come and go...at diff points in time diff cultures enjoy greater patronage than the rest...like the cycle of time....whats popular 2day is not tomorrow. No one can ever say one set of humans are better than the others. Life is always complementary...

All those studies are just saying what Mala said, No body is claiming genetic superiority here we are just talking about genetic diversity.


The more u read, u wud know its hard to understand what "race" among humans is all abt in the first place.

Hey categorization is always a matter of semantics, it is aptly dealt in any basic books on Artificial Inteligence, try amazon buddy


Its better for all of us to think on terms like "human race" esp since there r better things 2 worry abt like emerging diseases; rather than harping on past "glory' (which i'd rather call human achievement...always think IF NOT U / ME / US, SOMEONE ELSE WILL discover stuff anyway..)..

I agree with you here, but I remind you it is history forum and we are here to talk about the past. Looks like your interest lies in Science forums. :D

[SRS]

Happy Indian
All that Bismala said was people in North India are likely to be genetically more variant than the southereners, there is a hell a lot of scientific evidence for this. South was historically more immune to invasions, while the north was invaded in waves by the aryans, alexanders army, the muslims and the others, the south was relatively less impacted. This is seen as the reason for the greater genetic diversity in north.


All those studies are just saying what Mala said, No body is claiming genetic superiority here we are just talking about genetic diversity.



The latest genetic studies show that the only significant genetic variation among Indians is that between Brahmins and other Indians. Otherwise one cannot distinguish between Indians on the basis of genetics. Also, recognized scholarly authorities do not give credence to AIT anymore. AIT is simply a lie created by the British as a way to divide the Indian society.

[happyindian]

Stranger & Ronnie the Dutch,

Your immaturity shows. And so does your mentality to prove anything not suitable to your line of thinking as "wrong" or "not acceptable". Name-calling or underestimating anyone is not my position.

Dont expect 2 b spoonfed. There are far too many online journal articles u can read 4 free. If u wanna learn, work 4 it.

Mahadevan,

"All that Bismala said was people in North India are likely to be genetically more variant than the southereners"

U said it, my friend, not Mala :-)

"South was historically more immune to invasions, while the north was invaded in waves by the aryans, alexanders army, the muslims and the others, the south was relatively less impacted."

Hv u wondered abt the origin of the 'aryans', the greek, arabs, afghans, turkish, etc........All hominids more or less share a common origin.

"This is seen as the reason for the greater genetic diversity in north."

Sorry biodiversity in flora & genetic diveristy of humans is good in the south as well. We cannot say one region is better than the other.
Nice one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_Archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia

"Hey categorization is always a matter of semantics, it is aptly dealt in any basic books on Artificial Inteligence, try amazon buddy."

Agree with u. At the end of the day we can still look at 2 diff sides of the same coin :-)

"I agree with you here, but I remind you it is history forum and we are here to talk about the past. Looks like your interest lies in Science forums. "

Anthropology is a part of history / historical studies... today it is rather incomplete without genetic anthropology. So there u r...

Historians 2day better hv some working knowledge of archaeogenetics, anthopometrics, population genetics, etc..lest they come to biased conclusions based on historical / literary works such as vedas, bible, quran, tholkappiyam, etc...anyways, i think a true blue historian wud never think of segregating ppl..their job is 2 study bcoz of their love for literature. Anything man written better be taken with a pinch of salt.

SRS,
"The latest genetic studies show that the only significant genetic variation among Indians is that between Brahmins and other Indians."
That info is popular bcoz of media publicity. Hard 2 say if all brahmin sub castes are as diff from the rest of the indians. Try: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/6/4 & http://www.geocities.com/vetinarilord/india.pdf

Such studies take time. Anyways, the main point despite all the recent and not-so-recent diversity occurence is that we all come frm common ancestors...

[happyindian]

Best for beginners:

http://members.tripod.com/~tanmoy/bengal/races.html

[mahadevan]

SRS wrote 'The latest genetic studies show that the only significant genetic variation among Indians is that between Brahmins and other Indians'
Absolutely wrong, the variance between southern brahmins and Northen Brahmin/non Brahmin is much more than the variance between southern brahmins and southern non Brahmin, indicating that the southern brahmins are most likley to be aryanized dravidians. This study was done by a group in IISc bangalore, google would give you that link

[mahadevan]

happyindian wrote: "U said it, my friend, not Mala Smile "
That is exactly what Bismala was insinuating

happyindian wrote: "Hv u wondered abt the origin of the 'aryans', the greek, arabs, afghans, turkish, etc........All hominids more or less share a common origin."

Yeah all humans today came from just a bunch of few hundred survivors in africa and maternaly if you belive in the mitochondrial DNA evidence, we all have the same super MOM, this is known to every body. But the fact is over a period of we evolved to manifest differnt phenotypes, it is this differences we are talking about. At a higher level we are all made of proton,electron and neutron(and the zillion other nucleons that they discover) does that make me and you equal to the rock ?
That is why classifications is just a matter of semantics.


happyindian wrote: "Sorry biodiversity in flora & genetic diveristy of humans is good in the south as well. We cannot say one region is better than the other. "

disagree, there is DNA diversity among siblings also, but what I am talking about is the degree of diversity. I repeat
genetic variance is more pronounced in the north than in the south. And I am not saying south is just a clone of one genetic imprint.

[stranger]

Stranger,
Your immaturity shows. And so does your mentality to prove anything not suitable to your line of thinking as "wrong" or "not acceptable". Name-calling or underestimating anyone is not my position.

Dont expect 2 b spoonfed. There are far too many online journal articles u can read 4 free. If u wanna learn, work 4 it.

Cut the crap! :twisted:

Give me the reference which proves that what mala stated is UNTRUE.

If you dont know, SAY that phrase, "I DON T KNOW"!"

----------------------


He failed to realize that Skrt was an invented liturgical language of the priests of India who themselves come from different linguistic groups probably with widely varying DNA pictures."


*The truth is contrary to your statement. .


Happy Indian!!!!

Just give me the REFERENCE which contradicts the ABOVE STATEMENT by mala.

Just give the article page #, title, and authors and the JOURNAL name in which it was published.

I hope you understand what I mean here!

Absolutely no bs please!

[happyindian]

Mahadevan,


That is exactly what Bismala was insinuating

R u bismala? :lol: Anyways forget her, lets deal with u.


Yeah all humans today came from just a bunch of few hundred survivors in africa and maternaly if you belive in the mitochondrial DNA evidence, we all have the same super MOM, this is known to every body. But the fact is over a period of we evolved to manifest differnt phenotypes, it is this differences we are talking about.

Why r u talking abt phenotype differrences. Ur mind does not want to focus on our Super MOM???



At a higher level we are all made of proton,electron and neutron(and the zillion other nucleons that they discover) does that make me and you equal to the rock ?
That is why classifications is just a matter of semantics.
Looks like am stuck with a linguist whose speciality is semantics. :roll:


disagree, there is DNA diversity among siblings also, but what I am talking about is the degree of diversity. I repeat
genetic variance is more pronounced in the north than in the south. And I am not saying south is just a clone of one genetic imprint.

U already contradicted urself. First u say genetic variance is more pronounced in the north and then u say the south is not a clone of one genetic imprint. Forget east, west, north , south....since all tribes, castes, population groups of all parts of India have not been studied yet, it is ridiculous to talk abt genetic diversity being gr8er in certain regions.....just bcoz some bunch of historians thot so.

Answers follow next.

Stranger,


Cut the crap!

Give me the reference which proves that what mala stated is UNTRUE.

If you dont know, SAY that phrase, "I DON T KNOW"!"

Cool it yet...no need 4 outbursts...am not sure who shd be saying I dont know...since finally u asked 2 b spoonfed :?



Happy Indian!!!!

Just give me the REFERENCE which contradicts the ABOVE STATEMENT by mala.

Just give the article page #, title, and authors and the JOURNAL name in which it was published.

I hope you understand what I mean here!

Absolutely no bs please!

Mala's statement is already fixated in your mind. Anyways, answers follow in the next post...I persume it may b long (depending on my patience)...

[mahadevan]

R u bismala? Laughing Anyways forget her, lets deal with u.
I am not Bismala, neither of us need any additional avatars. Please deal with me, I welcome that




Why r u talking abt phenotype differrences. Ur mind does not want to focus on our Super MOM???
We are talking about differences here, if you have forgotten the discussion.



Looks like am stuck with a linguist whose speciality is semantics. Rolling Eyes
Wrong guess buddy !


U already contradicted urself. First u say genetic variance is more pronounced in the north and then u say the south is not a clone of one genetic imprint. Forget east, west, north , south....since all tribes, castes, population groups of all parts of India have not been studied yet, it is ridiculous to talk abt genetic diversity being gr8er in certain regions.....just bcoz some bunch of historians thot so.
what contradiction ?, please reread the post, there is no contradiction. What I am writing is not the speculations of historians but the output of scientific reserach.

[happyindian]

From the article: Most of the extant mtDNA boundaries in South and Southwest Asia were likely shaped during the initial settlement of Eurasia by anatomically modern humans. By: Mait Metspalu1 , et al. BMC Genetics 2004, 5:26

Two mtDNA macro-haplogroups (M and N) that arose from the African haplogroup L3 encompass virtually all mtDNAs outside Africa.

India congregates four linguistic domains (Indo-European, Dravidic, Austro-Asiatic and Tibeto-Burman) that occupy non-random spheres of the geographic distribution of its populations. The majority of the recent studies based on mtDNA variation have, in contrast to some [21], provided evidence that linguistic groups of India do not represent genetically homogeneous units and are not, therefore, traceable to different immigration waves from distinct sources.

So u cannot say all tamilians belong to the same homogenous unit just bcoz they speak a common language.

With the exception of the diverse set of largely Indian-specific R lineages, the most frequent mtDNA haplogroup in India that derives from the phylogenetic node N is haplogroup W. The frequency peak of haplogroup W is 5% in the northwestern states – Gujarat, Punjab and Kashmir. Elsewhere in India its frequency is very low (from 0 to 0.9%) forming a significant spatial cline.

At 15% among the caste and 8% among the tribal populations haplogroup U is the most frequent sub-clade of R in India (Table 12, see Additional file 7). Approximately one half of the U mtDNAs in India belong to the Indian-specific branches of haplogroup U2 (U2i: U2a, U2b and U2c) [13,27] (Table 2). They are present throughout India without a clear geographical cline (Figure 2, panel U2i, SAA p > 0.05). However, the spread of another subset of U, haplogroup U7 [13], is similar to that of haplogroup W, peaking at 12% and 9% in Gujarat and Punjab, respectively (Table 11, see Additional file 6). The frequency of U7 is also high in neighboring Pakistan (6%) and particularly in Iran (9%) (Table 9, see Additional file 4).

Some haphlotypes are common to all Indians suggesting a common ancestry atleast in some part.

Approximately one tenth of the Indian haplogroup M mtDNAs fall into its major sub-clade M2, which is defined by the motif 477G-1780-8502-16319 [15]. M2 can be further subdivided into haplogroups M2a (transitions at nps 5252 and 8369) and M2b [15]. Haplogroup M2 and its two major sub-clades reveal coalescence times of 50 to 70 thousand years (Table 3). Due to the increased frequency towards the southern part of India (Figure 1, panel M2, SAA p < 0.05 Figure 4), M2 is significantly (p < 0.05) more frequent among the Dravidic speakers than among the Indo-European speakers who are spread mostly in the northern regions of India (Table 2). It is more plausible that geography rather than linguistics is behind this pattern, because the frequency of M2 amongst the Indo-European speaking populations in southern India is significantly higher than that in the north, while there is no significant difference between Dravidic and Indo-European speaking populations from the same geographic region (Table 2).

Point 2 note.

It is also notable that the frequency of M2 among the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas of Andhra Pradesh (CR 3.3 – 19.2%) is not significantly (p > 0.05) different from that among the other castes or the tribal populations of the region (CR: 5–12.9%, 11.2–18.3%, respectively). On the other hand, none of the 159 Brahmins and Kshatriyas from the northern states of India (Punjab, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh and West Bengal) belong to M2 while the frequency reaches nearly 3% (CR: 1.6–4.6%) among the other castes and tribal populations of the region.

So not all brahmin castes are so much Indo-European in origin.


Together with the Indian-specific sub-clades of haplogroup U2 [13,27], haplogroups M2 and R5 can be discriminated as a package of Indian-specific mtDNA clades harboring extremely deep coalescence times (around 50,000 – 70,000 ybp). Together they constitute nearly 15% of the Indian mtDNAs. Importantly, these haplogroups are virtually absent elsewhere in Eurasia [13,15], this study]. Because most of Indian varieties of haplogroup M are still unclassified (M*), this package is likely to be extended when more mtDNA coding region information will become available for the M* lineages in India.

Isnt that interesting??

Based on the high frequency and diversity of haplogroup M in India and elsewhere in Asia, some authors have suggested (versus [3]) that M may have arisen in Southwest Asia [16,17,31]. Finding M1 or a lineage ancestral to M1 in India, could help to explain the presence of M1 in Africa as a result of a back migration from India. Yet, to date this has not been achieved [15], this study). Therefore, one cannot rule out the still most parsimonious scenario that haplogroup M arose in East Africa [3]. Furthermore, the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N (indeed, L3M and L3N) in India is more consistent with the African launch of haplogroup M. On the other hand, one also observes that: i) M1 is the only variant of haplogroup M found in Africa; ii) M1 has a fairly restricted phylogeography in Africa, barely penetrating into sub-Saharan populations, being found predominantly in association with the Afro-Asiatic linguistic phylum – a finding that appears to be inconsistent with the distribution of sub-clades of haplogroups L3 and L2 that have similar time depths. That, plus the presence of M1 without accompanying L lineages in the Caucasus [32] and [our unpublished data], leaves the question about the origin of haplogroup M still open.

In contrast to haplogroup M, ancient sub-clades of haplogroup N are spread both east and west of India as well as within India itself. Several migration scenarios involving multiple "out of Africa" events punctuated by space, time or both, could be invoked to explain the phylogeography of these mtDNA haplogroups. Yet, using the parsimony criterion it can be argued that only a single early migration that brought ancestral lineages, M and N (with the latter having already given rise to R), to South Asia could account for the extant mtDNA phylogeography in Eurasia [15]. The finding of several largely South and West Asian-specific sub-clades (H, L, R2, and F*) of the major Eurasian Y chromosomal haplogroups F and K also supports this scenario [15]. From South and West Asia the colonization would have sprung both east and west as region-specific mtDNA and Y chromosomal sub-clades appeared both in West- and East-Eurasia as well as in India itself (Figure 5). However, not all the West-Eurasian Y-chromosomal founder haplogroups are present in India. Haplogroup E, for example, was possibly carried to Europe and Western Asia later via the Levantine corridor [33]. Similarly, a Late Upper Palaeolithic origin and spread of mtDNA haplogroup X from Northeast Africa and Middle East has been suggested lately [34].

By calculating nucleotide diversities and expansion times (using the method from [37]) for different linguistic groups of India, some previous studies on mtDNA variation have distinguished the Austro-Asiatic speaking tribal groups as the carriers of the genetic legacy of the earliest settlers of the subcontinent [17,38]. However, because the linguistic groups of India do not cluster into distinct branches of the Indian mtDNA tree [13,15,19], this study], calculating the beginning of expansion for those groupings is problematic and likely controversial as well.

Recently, Basu et al. (2003) supported the conclusions of [17,38] by reporting that the frequency of the ancient haplogroup M2 among the Austro-Asiatic tribal populations is as high as 19%, and that they lack the slightly younger haplogroup M4 (the likely paraphyletic mother-clade of M4a). The authors have regarded the HVS-I transition at np 16319 as sufficient in defining haplogroup M2. This assumption, however, might lead to an overestimation of M2 frequency and age. Indeed, the 16319 transition has arisen several times on the background of other Indian haplogroup M lineages (Table 7, see Additional file 2), more specifically, in mtDNAs lacking the coding region markers that define M2 [15].

Language families present today in India, such as Indo-European, Dravidic and Austro-Asiatic, are all much younger than the majority of indigenous mtDNA lineages found among their present-day speakers at high frequencies (see Additional file 9). It would make it highly speculative to infer, from the extant mtDNA pools of their speakers, whether one of the listed above linguistically defined group in India should be considered more "autochthonous" than any other in respect of its presence in the subcontinent.

So there u are stranger. U really cannot say
He failed to realize that Skrt was an invented liturgical language of the priests of India who themselves come from different linguistic groups probably with widely varying DNA pictures."
[/tscii:e585cafa7b]

Both dravidians as well as the rest of the indian 'races' / their languages are a result of widely varying DNA pictures.

[stranger]

[tscii:2f154396d5]A correction for this article has been published in BMC Genetics 2005, 6:41
Research article
.
Most of the extant mtDNA boundaries in South and Southwest Asia were likely shaped during the initial settlement of Eurasia by anatomically modern humans
Mait Metspalu1 , Toomas Kivisild1 , Ene Metspalu1 , Jüri Parik1 , Georgi Hudjashov1 , Katrin Kaldma1 , Piia Serk1 , Monika Karmin1 , Doron M Behar2 , M Thomas P Gilbert6 , Phillip Endicott7 , Sarabjit Mastana4 , Surinder S Papiha5 , Karl Skorecki2 , Antonio Torroni3 and Richard Villems1

I got the article!

I will read through it and get back to you! :)[/tscii:2f154396d5]

[happyindian]

[tscii:ac290a141e]
There are 2 schools of thot and arguments can go on based on genetic evidence. One is that dravidians are native to India and members of the dravidian family have not diverged much (this shd please our dravidian friends) (hey I am part dravidian too..my mother is half tamil half telugu, though culturally fully tamil. And the other school of thot says dravidians are a diverse population of many tribes and haphlogroups and native to east africa (i suspect this prospect does not please dravidians v.much though almost all recent studies are more and more consolidating this idea).



From: http://voi.org/books/ait/ch54.htm

He follows those scholars who consider the Central-Indian language isolate Nahali (assumed by its few students to be the original language of the western-Indian Bhils) as also belonging to the Austro-Asiatic family.86 This view is emphatically not shared by F.B.J. Kuiper, who lists 123 items of core vocabulary not reducible to Austro-Asiatic, Dravidian or IE roots, and calculates that “about 24 per cent of the Nahali vocabulary has no correspondence whatever in India”.87 If Kuiper is wrong, it would mean that as per the prevalent theories, not a single living language in the subcontinent (except for the peripheral languages Burushaski and Andamanese, at least for now) is indigenous.

So not everything originates from Tamil. Each lingustic group has something atleast of their own making.

In one of his most innovative chapters, Sergent reviews all the evidence of Dravido-African and Dravido-Uralic kinship. In African languages spoken in the entire Sahel belt, from Sudan to Senegal, numerous semantic and grammatical elements are found which also exist in Dravidian. The similarity with the Uralic languages (Finnish, Hungarian, Samoyedic) is equally pronounced. Sergent offers the hypothesis that at the dawn of the Neolithic Revolution (start of agriculture, some 10,000 years ago), the Dravidians left the Sudan, one band splitting off in Iran to head north to the Urals, the others entering India and moving south.

Though the prehistory of the southern Neolithic is difficult to trace, it can be stated with confidence that the best candidate is the Northwestern Neolithic, which started in Mehrgarh in the 8th millennium BC. It is, by contrast, very unlikely that it originated as an outpost of the Southeast-Asian Neolithic, which expanded into India at a rather late date, bringing the Austro-Asiatic languages. According to Sergent, a link with the mature Harappan civilization is equally unlikely: neither in material culture nor in physical type is such a link indicated by the evidence. The Dravidians were certainly already in the Deccan when the mature Harappan civilization started. Sergent suggests that the Dravidians formed a pre-Harappan population in Sindh and Gujarat, and that they were overwhelmed and assimilated, not by the invading Aryans, but by the mature-Harappan population.92

The picture which emerges is that of a multi-lingual Indus-Saraswati civilization with Dravidian as the minor partner (possibly preserved or at least leaving its mark in the southern metropolis of Mohenjo Daro) who ended up getting assimilated by the major partner, a non-Dravidian population whom we may venture to identify as Indo-Iranian and ultimately Indo-Aryan.

That is news to me. :lol:

One of the most remarkable findings related in some detail by Bernard Sergent, on the basis of three independent studies (by Lilias Homburger, by Tidiane Ndiaye, and by U.P. Upadhyaya and Mrs. S.P. Upadhyaya) reaching similar conclusions, is the multifarious kinship of the Dravidian language family with African languages of the Sahel belt, from Somalia to Senegal (Peul, Wolof, Mandè, Dyola). As Sergent notes, all Melano-African languages have been credibly argued to be related, with the exception of the Khoi-San and Korama languages of southern Africa and the Afro-Asiatic family of northern Africa; so the kinship of Dravidian would be with that entire Melano-African superfamily, though it would be more conspicuous with some of its members.

Hmmm....


Bernard Sergent argues against the Indian origin of Dravidian. One element to consider is that the members of the Dravidian family have not diverged very much from one another. The relative closeness of its members suggests that they started growing apart only fairly recently: a thousand years for Tamil and Malayalam (well-attested), perhaps three thousand for the divergence of North- from South-Dravidian. This would indicate that Dravidian was still a single language covering a small area in the early Harappan period, after having entered the country from the West.

isn't this nice...


That the “genealogical tree” of the Dravidian family seems to have its trunk in the coastal West of India, i.e. to the northwest of the main Dravidian area, has long been recognized by scholars of Dravidian.99 It also fits in with the old Brahminical nomenclature, which includes Gujarat and Maharashtra in the Pañcha-DraviDa, the “five Dravida areas of Brahminical settlement” (as contrasted with Pañcha-GauDa, the five North-Indian ones). The northwestern coast was the first part of India to be dravidianized, the wellspring of Dravidian migration to the south, but also an area where Dravidian was gradually displaced by Indo-Aryan though not without influencing it.

v.nice, i suppose.

More to follow after weekend.

[/tscii:ac290a141e]

[stranger]

There are 796 Indians have been studied by froeigners, who harldy know the difference between "karuppaiya" and "subramaniyan".

You are stating from this study, what?????



Several Indian-specific mtDNA clades demonstrate a similar spread-pattern in southern India. We found haplogroups M4a, M6a and M18 in southeastern Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh while they were absent from neighboring Karnataka and Kerala (Figure 1 panel M6a and Figure 2 panels M4a and M18). One possible explanation is that admixture has been facilitated along the coastlines of the Arabian Sea and the Bay of Bengal. On the other hand, because the absolute frequencies of these haplogroups are rather low, it cannot be ruled out that an increase of sample sizes would disrupt the observed spread-pattern.

[stranger]

DMB collected the DNA and analyzed mtDNA variation amongst the Indian samples from Cochin and the Cochin Jews collected (the latter) in Israel under supervision of KS, who also contributed to the editing of the manuscript.

Cochin jews???

[stranger]

So not all brahmin castes are so much Indo-European in origin.

What the hell is this???

Who knows the caste of all the 796 cases here??

DO YOU?????

Do you have any idea about their names at least???

Do not go on bullshit with this data!!!


Sarabjit Mastana4 , Surinder (SSM and SSP )collected most of the Indian samples (in 1970's) and have been keeping the collection in Newcastle University, United Kingdom.

[stranger]

since finally u asked 2 b spoonfed :?

This BULLSHIT (studying 1970s sample in 2004) is your spoon-feeding??? :lol:

yeah, sure, you are spoon-feeding some BULLSHIT! :lol:

And who asked you fill the thread with this CRAP???

Cant you understand english???

All I asked is give me the reference! I did not aske you to COPY and pASTE SELECTIVELY???

[stranger]

So u cannot say all tamilians belong to the same homogenous unit just bcoz they speak a common language.

How many of them are tamilins and how many of them are COCHIN JEWS in the samples collected in 1970s??? :hammer:

[mahadevan]

hey Happy Indian thanks for providing the evidence, that article only proves what we have been talking about so far, that northerners are more related to the Iranians/eurasians rather than the southerners.

The sample taken for that study does not include a single Tamilian/Telugu/Kannadiga it does say that it included some malayalis 55 non jew keralites, but what if they are the syrians, we all know that kerala is the only state in the south to have recived people from middle east as settlers, even St Thomas reached its coast.

In conclusion, this study is irrelevant to our discussion of differences between the degree of genetic diversity in the Northern population and Southern population in india. Though you provided more ammunition for the advocates of AIT.

[mahadevan]

The following is the sample used in the study, wisely left out by our Happy Indian

The non-tribal Indian samples analyzed contained 105 West Bengalis of different caste rank, 58 Konkanastha Brahmins from Bombay, 53 Gujaratis, 50 Moors and 82 Sinhalese from Sri Lanka, 109 Punjabis of different caste rank from the Punjab, 25 Brahmins from Uttar Pradesh, 35 Rajputs from Rajasthan, 55 Parsees from Maharashtra and 100 subjects from Cochin, Kerala (including 45 Jews who have moved to Israel) (Table 1).

[mahadevan]

Tribal populations constitute 15% of the total sample size. The Lodha (n = 56) live mostly in the western part of Midnapore district of West Bengal where they are also known as Kheria or Kharia. Their total population size was ~59000 according to the 1981 census. Their language belongs to the Mundari branch of the Austro-Asiatic language family [47]. The Kanet (n = 37) make up two thirds of the ~50000 inhabitants of the Kinnaur district in Himachal Pradesh [48]. Their language belongs to the Himalayan group of the Tibeto-Burman language family [47]. Five Bhoksa and twenty-six Tharu individuals were included in the present study in addition to those from the same populations that we have previously reported [13]. Most of the Tharu live in the Terai areas (a belt of marshy land at the foot of the Himalayas) of Nepal (n = 720000). Approximately 96000 reside in Uttar Pradesh and Uttaranchal, Indian states adjacent to Nepal. Around 32000 Bhoksas live in the lowland areas of Uttaranchal and the neighboring Bijnor district of Uttar Pradesh. Both these tribal groups speak languages belonging to the Indo-European phylum [47].

[mahadevan]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_200310/ai_n9305327

Microsatellite Diversity among Three Endogamous Tamil Populations Suggests Their Origin from a Separate Dravidian Genetic Pool

Abstract The genetic profiles based on 15 autosomal microsatellite markers were analyzed among three socially distinct endogamous Dravidian populations: Tanjore Kallar, Vanniyar, and Pallar of Tamil Nadu, southern India, in order to understand their origin and the extent of genetic affinity and diversity among them. All loci were highly polymorphic and followed Hardy-Weinberg expectations except for loci D13S317 in Tanjore Kallars and D7S820 in Vanniyars. The S^sub K^^sup 2^ criterion test showed no evidence of association among the 15 loci in the studied populations. The extent of gene differentiation among the three populations was low (GST = 0.012), suggesting proximity between them. The phylogenetic dendrogram based on allele frequencies places them in a separate cluster, away from other compared Indo-European populations. The fit of the Harpending and Ward model of regression was found to be good and consistent with the extent of endogamy followed by the respective populations. These findings support a separate origin of the Dravidians and reveal an overall genetic unity among the studied Tamil populations belonging to different strata of the social hierarchy. The extent of diversity found among them probably resulted from the strict endogamous practices that they follow.

Hey Happy Indian this is the genetic closeness that I am talking about

[stranger]

[tscii:0a56707a12]
It is also notable that the frequency of M2 among the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas of Andhra Pradesh (CR 3.3 – 19.2%) is not significantly (p > 0.05) different from that among the other castes or the tribal populations of the region (CR: 5–12.9%, 11.2–18.3%, respectively). On the other hand, none of the 159 Brahmins and Kshatriyas from the northern states of India (Punjab, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh and West Bengal) belong to M2 while the frequency reaches nearly 3% (CR: 1.6–4.6%) among the other castes and tribal populations of the region.

So not all brahmin castes are so much Indo-European in origin.

In other words, SOME BRAHMIN caste are INDO EUROPEAN origin???

Are you trying to FABRICATE the resulst by arriving at your OWN conclusions besides the authors????

[/tscii:0a56707a12]

[stranger]

Mahadevan:

I dont hink that guy read the article CAREFULLY! :rotfl:

He is FABRICATING using his own idiotic CONCLUSIONS!!! :rotfl:

He DUG his own GRAVE now by bringing up this article! :lol:

[stranger]

The following is the sample used in the study, wisely left out by our Happy Indian

The non-tribal Indian samples analyzed contained 105 West Bengalis of different caste rank, 58 Konkanastha Brahmins from Bombay, 53 Gujaratis, 50 Moors and 82 Sinhalese from Sri Lanka, 109 Punjabis of different caste rank from the Punjab, 25 Brahmins from Uttar Pradesh, 35 Rajputs from Rajasthan, 55 Parsees from Maharashtra and 100 subjects from Cochin, Kerala (including 45 Jews who have moved to Israel) (Table 1).

I think he leaves some part for FABRICATING the conclusions!!! :lol:

[stranger]

[tscii:ed80ae4a3f]
So there u are stranger.

U really cannot say ***Both dravidians as well as the rest of the indian 'races' / their languages are a result of widely varying DNA pictures****



* It is also notable that the frequency of M2 among the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas of Andhra Pradesh (CR 3.3 – 19.2%) is not significantly (p > 0.05) different from that among the other castes or the tribal populations of the region (CR: 5–12.9%, 11.2–18.3%, respectively).

* On the other hand, none of the 159 Brahmins and Kshatriyas from the northern states of India (Punjab, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh and West Bengal) belong to M2 while the frequency reaches nearly 3% (CR: 1.6–4.6%) among the other castes and tribal populations of the region.
[/tscii:ed80ae4a3f]

What does this TELL YOU, then????

[stranger]

[tscii:7bb5ca5485]

He failed to realize that Skrt was an invented liturgical language of the priests of India who themselves come from different linguistic groups probably with widely varying DNA pictures."

-------------------------
Most of the extant mtDNA boundaries in South and Southwest Asia were likely shaped during the initial settlement of Eurasia by anatomically modern humans
Mait Metspalu1 , Toomas Kivisild1 , Ene Metspalu1 , Jüri Parik1 , Georgi Hudjashov1 , Katrin Kaldma1 , Piia Serk1 , Monika Karmin1 , Doron M Behar2 , M Thomas P Gilbert6 , Phillip Endicott7 , Sarabjit Mastana4 , Surinder S Papiha5 , Karl Skorecki2 , Antonio Torroni3 and Richard Villems1
------------------------






After giving the REFERENCE COCLUDES that

So there u are stranger.

* U really cannot say Both dravidians as well as the rest of the indian 'races' / their languages are a result of widely varying DNA pictures.

* Your genetics-related article DOES NOT disprove the statement made by her!

* It only supports her statement vy showing that north-indians are genetically close to the iranians when you compare them with south indians.

So your bullshitting did not work at this time, unfortunately! 8-) [/tscii:7bb5ca5485]

[mahadevan]

Hi Stranger
The Hindian without proper knowledge of biology grabbed some thing on google and tried to project it as an evidence for his stand, unfortunetly his lack of knowledge is too conspicuous this time, do not know when they would realize that science is different from liturgy. He may have also assumed that we cannot comprehend biology, poor soul did not realize that there is nothing beyond the TAMIL brain, for that matter any brain that is not a vedic fanatic.
Anyway atleast now the thread is approaching closer to its original intent, I remember an Iranian friend saying once "every thing from vedas(extension of avesta) to Taj Mahal you guys owe to us", now science proves his point, needlees to say that the iraninan friend did not know the non Hindian native India.

[stranger]

Mr. mahadevan!

The major problem here is nobody needs to give their resume here. So it takes a dozen posts to realize the hubber is a joker or a sensible scientist.

Hindian talked like an authority for genetics study. But his own cited article goes against his argument!

What a pity! :)

Take it easy! :D

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

devapriya"][tscii]Friends,We have to see things objectively and not with emotions.


FSG, goes absolutely away from Tamil Grammer Rules and also all known methods of Science to put his assumptions.
Seyon does not mean Lord Siva....... Maraimalaiar agrees here
Siva from Sanskrit source

None of your statement is correct. Grammar rules is applicable only in literature. Not in phonetical natural evolution of dialects.
Adigal never agreed siva is from Sanskrit. There are guys like you saying Neer(water) and Meen(fish) were also derived from sanskrit.


Sadai- cannot be Tamil word as per Tholkappiyam rules- as Sa cannot be a start of Tamil word, and it can be the Tamilised form of Jadai, as Tholkappiyar says leave Sanskrit letter and write in Tamilised form. (Vadasol- vadaeluthu Orie). So your quotes of Saddai proves for Sanskrit and not for Tamil.

Go on imagining man !Tholkappiam (1250 BCE)used words like ‘Moodu’ & ‘Kadamaa’ for Goat and Seval for male horse which are not available in Third sankam literature. This means Tholkappiam is far earlier than Third sankam literature. Seyon also such kind of word to specify sivan. Refer- T.V. Mahalingam , Early South Indian Paleography, University of Madras. Page 116-17.

The evolution of Am-Sam happened during Third sankam period. Tholkappiam rules allows 'Pazhayana Khzhithal" - a birth for change. In natural language changes occur. The archestrated Sankatham does not have that prospects.


Kumari- refers to the Kanyakumari and not the mythological Legendery now completely dropped Kumarikandam, which Satelite research and Oceanograpishts have confirmed of No submerged Land below Indu Maha Samudra and no Sangam Song or

FSG-Please be Honest and use Ethics in discussion: Poeial Exaggaration be ignored to get History.

Tamil poetrical historical notes and secular nature of them are currently proved by Cu plates and Inscriptions of South India. You have to develop your scientifical mind and not 'Vedha Vakku'.


Tholkappiyam Payiram tells that Tamilnadu extended from Vengadam to Kumari.

So Tamil was not even fully Spoken in the Southern Half fully.

That was the condition of 1250 BCE. Latin & Greek which were spoken all over Europe now almost Extinct. Paichasi which was spoken all over India is tamil. I have already quoted scholarical views. Vedhic blind cannot accept this.


WE have to go by the Internationally acknowledged and “well Established” facts by various International Universities and not by Highly Biased Scholars

French Tamil Scholar June Filiyosa once informed that all world Universities have oriental Languages division. Indian Govt. forced to put Sanskrit first for research. In spite of that Tamil’s distinguished aspects attracted him. He told to Manavai Mustafa if you make Indian Govt. to announce tamil as classical language world universities shall allot special birth to tamil. Except TamilNadu, Srilanka, Singapore & Malaysia, this conditions continue.

Now Indian Central Govt. announced tamil as a classical language. Tamil is getting More world accreditions now.



FSG is doing the same as Thani Tamil trickery as I quote-

Manickavasagar’s-// Thennadudaya sivane Potri’” is from 11th Cen CE, why give it when we talk bout BCE 3000 Vedas.

Manickavasakar timeline is 300 ACE. Continue your lies.


Vedic world extended up to Egypt and beyond, why FSG, Bismalas has a problem in accepting that Indian culture was prevalent everywhere.

If it is true where are the the proofs? Vedhas timeline of 3000 BCE is imaginary and fable and it is obsolete now.

f.s.gandhi

[shoyonika]

Vedic culture never needs nods by anyone to prove its antiquity, instead other cultures need to prove them. Samskrith, the ancient language of India, has already been recognized as a classical language worldover, unlike by demand of any people.
Lastly Prakrit, Paishachi and Apabhramsha all are derivatives of Samskrith. The grammatical formations and the vocabulary used in these languages which later formed all the languages of Bharatha, proves the fact that these languages are indeed the dialects of Samskrith.

[mahadevan]

Vedic culture never needs nods by anyone to prove its antiquity, instead other cultures need to prove them.

what is your point ? are you saying that vedic culture is a matter of faith, more like a religion than literature ?


Samskrith, the ancient language of India, has already been recognized as a classical language worldover, unlike by demand of any people.

Which world are you talking about ? the well where vedic fanatics live ?


Lastly Prakrit, Paishachi and Apabhramsha all are derivatives of Samskrith. The grammatical formations and the vocabulary used in these languages which later formed all the languages of Bharatha, proves the fact that these languages are indeed the dialects of Samskrith.
You repeat a lie a zillion times, belive me, it is still a lie.

[devapriya]

Friends,

FSG says my interpretation of Tholkappiyam is right, that is "sa" cannot be a words start butr this rule does not apply to Tamil Talking, then Talking Tamil is different, and Classical Tamil -Poetical was never a Spoken that is what He means. Bismala who referred to this same verse and came to same conclusion in another Thread here LIES.

Sow" alone is not possible- Friends as per many THANI-TAMIL GROUPS say the vowels Aou and I or not tamil but Tholkappiyar an Aryan Brahmin imported them from Sanskrit, and M.Karunanithi gave a tiltle to Thiruvalluvar as Iyen, but must not use Vowel I - but a+ e
Now Bismala tells different story, Please do not spoil Tamil's pride and fame by your consistent LIES And please accept Scholarly Concluded Dating for Tholkapiyar or give proofs for your lies instead of repeating it several times.
DNA Research or in very early stage, and like false reading of Sarawathi River Civilisation, which now No objective Scholar credit fully to Dravidian, we need to wait, and other study puts that Africans Jeans in Blacks originatied from Africa, and Whiltes and Brown Originated in India and Migrated to Middle East and Europe.

SO Keep DNA FOR Time being.

My detailed post on Vedic Past in Arabia and Bible follows shortly.

[bis_mala]

Sow" alone is not possible- Friends as per many THANI-TAMIL GROUPS say the vowels Aou and I or not tamil but Tholkappiyar an Aryan Brahmin imported them from Sanskrit, and M.Karunanithi gave a tiltle to Thiruvalluvar as Iyen, but must not use Vowel I - but a+ e

Since the "original" copies of Tolkappiyam reaching us today show this particular stanza with differences (as I have explained before), your argument becomes gripless!! Pl read my post again.

Furthermore, Sangam lit has many words in the "cha" category. They are not Indo-European and therefore not Rigkrit/Sanskrit.

[happyindian]

Whoa I just went away for a while and quite a few pages hv bn filled in....n the knives n daggers r out too LOL. And I thot I had a long way to go after leaving midway. Guess no one saw the 'more after weekend". (ok so i hv bn a little late). I see this page is coming back 2 arguements abt languages. I wudn't want 2 venture into languages (perhaps we shd start a new thread on genetic origins of various tamil castes / tribes). I enjoyed n am still learning learning Tamizh and that is that. I was just curious abt tholkappiyam and agatiyam's history and origins coz am interested in agastya rishi's history and his role in shaping / contributing 2 tamil.

Ok first, Stranger & Mahadevan , what's wrong with samples from the 1970s -- I was born in the 1970s. V r talking abt modern humans that hv bn around 4 more than 30,000 years. Collecting samples for a study with participant consent is not easy. It usually does take a long time esp if v.diverse. Overall, stranger your immature n frequent outbursts without substance (i bet a million $ u r a teenager), makes one feel ....i dunno what 2 say - basically your idiocy shows. Sorry but I didnt know hw else 2 put it.

Mahadevan, your outburst had some substance, but you said this:


"He may have also assumed that we cannot comprehend biology, poor soul did not realize that there is nothing beyond the TAMIL brain, for that matter any brain that is not a vedic fanatic. "

And I lost any iota of any opinion I had abt u. TAMIL brain? Can u plz open and show how diff it is from a non-tamil one?????

U had a lot 2 say abt the first post but none abt the second - your bias is fixed.

There was a reason for the first post (2 show haplotypes in various indian groups u will eventually see how some tamilans share). U r concentrating on recent diversity and r not seeing ancient diversity. Simply put IE groups mating with IE groups wud not produce that much allele frequency change as many of us wud like 2 imagine that is ofcourse depending on which invader u r talking abt who invaded northern india (note: am still a student in a very allied field) -- in every region u wud find some so-called distinctive un-adultered types and some mixed types. Essentially you really cannot compare any regional set since no one counted how many and what types of haplotypes each N.Indian or S.Indian has -- LOL. I really do not understand wht you mean 2 by "widely varying DNA Pix" restricted to one group. Lets move on anyways.

I understand you are trying to say there is gr8er cohesiveness in one linguistic group ie., Tamil group. I think in this forum DRAVIDIANISM simply translates to TAMILIAN-ISM - so will focus on tamil castes / tribes. I thot we were talking abt all southern indians when we were talking abt dravidian origins. Phew so much for an "identity" :?

FABRICATED is too big a word, buddies. No one here has seen anyone face 2 face so it bcomes easy 2 vent our worst selves typing a few msgs here n there; which v wud not normally do if we spoke in person. Remember all words you use reflect your true self.

Your article focussed on 3 castes that share a more or less common origin. Alright. You chose to overlook uniqueness even in allied castes. Diff alleles r present in diff caste groups throughout the indian sub-continent in gr8 proportion. Basically no one can really say one 'caste' is in perfect sync with the other and no one can predict origin in certainity unless u can identify where the genetic drift came frm. In terms of conclusive evidence there is only that much you cud actually say not everything. All researchers pick the ones to quote as it suits their work; and wud make a passing note on opposing views too. A lot depends on where u r coming from and how u wanna c it too. Basically your inference from this one article is rather expedient and was rather corporeal; though very much legitimate in one way.

Suggest u read: http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/ANE-DIGEST/V03/v03.n140 and http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Kivisild2003a.pdf in complete detail. On what basis did you come to the conclusion that so-called 'dravidians' did not come to india via iran? Ofcourse one set of Indians (coz M20 is frequently found in tamilains too) came frm africa to india via regions around ancient persia.

Basically you can find some of your answers here: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003217

Clyde Winters is answering questions here and he is of opinion that dravidians are more recent migrants to india. There hv always bn waves of migration at various points of time. So wonder if this applies to which of the southern indians / tamilians?

I do not understand this kinda fanatical opinions abt who is older or younger, abt who is better, brighter or no gd and dim. So what if someone is older or younger? What diff does it make 2 your life NOW? Older does not always translate into better, it may b far frm the best too since it can also mean under-developed in some ways. Older races may not be intellectually as bright. Newer races may be r far more ruthless, intellectual and entrepreneurial in establishing their presence, culture and lifestyle (God makes a catch point everywhere, so despite everything newer races may b more prone 2 easier extinction via a weeaker immune system and easy susceptibility 2 newer diseases).

Not all so-called tamil present-day castes (or for that matter individuals who belong to a certain caste) are not of that ancient origin as pureland tamilians wud like 2 think. One respected member (whose writing i njoy reading) goes 2 the extent of saying tamil tribes were the first 2 be "formulated". I dunno if its a typo or what - I think it shd be "formed" not "formulated" but now if he cud show genorosity and give me the formula I cud do India proud by winning a nobel prize :lol: (sorry sir but no pun, no nothing intended, hope u r having a gd laugh as well).

The journey of man and the basic origin of various haplogroups: National Geographic's genographic project - https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/

Human atlas: https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html

You cud find out abt your origins by sending a swab sample but it costs some money (if money is time; then u cud save time by not needing to come here often 2 argue 4 nothing by ego's sake - am not saying I did not do it in the past. I apologize if I hv hurt anyone) -- https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/participate.html

[happyindian]

RR / NOV,

Cud u monitor this thread plz - suspect emotional outbursts n a few crackers cud go up here at a later stage.

Ppl come 2 post stuff here with the expectation that they wud be understood not abused. If you ensure perfect stringency, then i suppose those who do not intend / wish to, need not end up using reciprocatory language. A humble request, that's all.

Many thanks.

[goodsense]

:D HappyIndian,

I think I remember you.

What a long post!!!

How are you anyway?

[happyindian]

goodsense, your pic is so familiar. Cud u pm me please. Whats your email add?

[goodsense]

OK, check your PM.

Sorry mods.

[devapriya]

Friends,

Every major feature in Bible is easily traceble back to Jend Avestha and Rig Veda. Unwanted Confusion due to Meaningless claims from Artificial Claims of Dravidianisms.

Tholkappiyam dating can never bve earlier than 50BCE TO 50CE, later more likely, some of the important reasons given earlier got no response from fsg and mala. More in other releavant threads, shortly.

European Missionary brought the myths such as Aryan & Dravidians coming to India from Outside than Thomas coming to India and Other Myths. THeir Idea of Aryan coming in is because, Indian Civilisation and Linguistic Skill were all Mother to all World Civilisation and that only Europeans coming in can give it. Nonsense.

We do not have a Single Tamil Lit. right from Sangam and Tholkapiyam which is not influenced by Sanskrit and Vedas, and hence to say this is Vedic or Dravidian is foolish. All Major References to Siva in Sangam tells Siva as Vedic God. Tamil has 33% Sanskrit words and Half that burrowed from Pali and Prakrit, the branches of Sanskrit.

SO Unwanted Dravidian Angle be avoided.

Devapriya.

[mahadevan]

Every major feature in Bible is easily traceble back to Jend Avestha and Rig Veda. Unwanted Confusion due to Meaningless claims from Artificial Claims of Dravidianisms.

Bible/quran are strinkingly different from the pagan Avesta, that is the reason that they dethroned it, if you read them you will understand that Avesta is polytheistic and the semitic ones are monotheistic. Whereas the vedas are a complete reenactment of avesta, the vedas continues the pagan identity with even the god names intact. This is in perfect conformance with the AIT. Complete agree with you here that you are unnecessarily confused with this.


Tholkappiyam dating can never bve earlier than 50BCE TO 50CE, later more likely, some of the important reasons given earlier got no response from fsg and mala. More in other releavant threads, shortly.

Hey it is a sensible piece of lit that does not derive importance by superstition, just because it acknowledges vedachol, does not mean it is not older. I would agree with you if it had mentioned the name samskrit, for the latter is after 200 AD. Vadachol here refers to prakrits the mother of sanskrit.


European Missionary brought the myths such as Aryan & Dravidians coming to India from Outside than Thomas coming to India and Other Myths. THeir Idea of Aryan coming in is because, Indian Civilisation and Linguistic Skill were all Mother to all World Civilisation and that only Europeans coming in can give it. Nonsense.

You laugh at FSG when he says that Tamil is the mother of all languages, but here you are saying (even a moron can see through your statement) that sanskrit is the mother of all languages. Hey an artificial, un precise, non classical language can never even dream of such a status. If there is any language in the world that is the oldest remanant of the global language families, it is Tamil buddy. Sanskrit never existed as a language, its status in India in the past is no different from today.


We do not have a Single Tamil Lit. right from Sangam and Tholkapiyam which is not influenced by Sanskrit and Vedas, and hence to say this is Vedic or Dravidian is foolish. All Major References to Siva in Sangam tells Siva as Vedic God. Tamil has 33% Sanskrit words and Half that burrowed from Pali and Prakrit, the branches of Sanskrit.

Live in your own dream world, Siva, the word is clearly Tamil the translation in vedic (sanskrit came much later) is Rudra the red one

[happyindian]

Not sure hw gd an idea it is to compare works of literature or esp "religious" books.

We cud also write something and 3000 yrs later our descendents cud argue over it.

Whatever for???????

All languages and cultures are beautiful. Tamil is an awsome language, intricate and poetic (simply no idea it cud be this v.far from the street type spoken in movies). Sanskrit is beautiful to listen to as well (cannot go thru a single day without listening to some uplifting vedic chanting). Lets just enjoy all languages on earth as long as they/we last.

[bis_mala]

All languages and cultures are beautiful. Tamil is an awsome language, intricate and poetic (simply no idea it cud be this v.far from the street type spoken in movies). Sanskrit is beautiful to listen to as well (cannot go thru a single day without listening to some uplifting vedic chanting). Lets just enjoy all languages on earth as long as they/we last.

I do not for a moment think anyone can differ with the above statement.

When it is said that Tamil is "elderly" among world languages, it is just like saying that the man next door is an old man. By calling an old man as "an old man", you are not disrespecting all other men around in your neighbourhood. People who are accusing you of disrespecting the other men are actually reading "disrespect", "supremacy" and other thoughts into what is otherwise an innocent statement that the man is an old man.
Similarly, when a surgeon operates on a human body and identifies this is the lung, that is the heart and so on is not disrespecting the man operated upon. He is merely identifying parts or internal parts of the human body. Similarly when we say that a certain Sans word is derived from Tamil root words, no disrespect is meant.

When you say: "That is the lung", you are not necessarily prohibiting the man on the operating table from using his own lung next time!!

Nobody is preventing anybody from using or appreciating Sans language.

Just why such topics evoke outbursts from certain enthusiasts -- it is little understood.

My own view is that Indians are not matured enough yet to partake in such discussions on linguistics......Indians are involved emotionally with one language or other....Linguists examine languages just like engineers examine the structure of a building........

[srivatsan]

Hey an artificial, un precise, non classical language can never even dream of such a status. If there is any language in the world that is the oldest remanant of the global language families, it is Tamil buddy. Sanskrit never existed as a language, its status in India in the past is no different from today.

Now Mr. Mahadevan, May I know your qualification in Samskritham for coming to the above conclusion....Your comment about a particular language shows that you are not good at any language....just showing your hatred towards Samskritham..... is it.....?

[srivatsan]

When it is said that Tamil is "elderly" among world languages, it is just like saying that the man next door is an old man. By calling an old man as "an old man", you are not disrespecting all other men around in your neighbourhood. People who are accusing you of disrespecting the other men are actually reading "disrespect", "supremacy" and other thoughts into what is otherwise an innocent statement that the man is an old man.
Similarly, when a surgeon operates on a human body and identifies this is the lung, that is the heart and so on is not disrespecting the man operated upon. He is merely identifying parts or internal parts of the human body. Similarly when we say that a certain Sans word is derived from Tamil root words, no disrespect is meant.


No dispute sir.....but when, "another man says that a man next to his door is old and respectable", the one who claimed previously that the man next to his door is old and respectable, should/can not object....and that is what precisely many are doing here.....

Secondly....I want to ask one question, is there any such superiority dispute (between Samskritham or Thamizh) registered in the court of any King in the past.....? be it in the court of chozha or pandiya or any kuru nila mannan....

I have no second opinion that this country, Bharatham, (or India) has not given the respect that Thamizh deserves....Thamizh being one of the oldest languages in the world has not been developed in anyway by our leaders......but, by pulling down some one who is above us, we cant go up......and that is what "Thamizh abimaanigal" are doing.....Thamizh's greatness can be made known to world in really a better way.....

[mahadevan]

Now Mr. Mahadevan, May I know your qualification in Samskritham for coming to the above conclusion....Your comment about a particular language shows that you are not good at any language....just showing your hatred towards Samskritham..... is it.....?

Hi Srivatsan, please look at what is being said rather than who is saying it. Thanks for certifying that I am not good in any languages, sorry it does not matter to me. I do not have any hatred about sanskrit. All I said is absolutely true about sanskrit it is people with blind faith about sanskrit that cannot accept that and think that I hate sanskrit. I am just calling a spade as a spade
To clarify what I said about sanskrit,

artificial - it is undoubtably an artificial language, its name itself says that it was created and not evolve naturally. It is the only language in the world to have this 'Create' thingi in its name, that is not all, it is the only language whose grammer (magnum opus infact) does not tell the name of the language, rather it does but calls it by another name, chandasa, does it not ring a bell buddy

un precise - vedic protogonist say that a sentence in sanskrit can be construed in multiple ways because the same word has multiple meanings and there are a zillion words to state the same. This is often cited as the reason for not able to extract the so called buried knowledge in vedas

non classical language - for a language to be recognized as classical it has to qualify under certain criteria(google search would tell you that), sanskrit does not pass that test.

I again repeat it "never existed as a language, its status in India in the past is no different from today."

[mahadevan]

No dispute sir.....but when, "another man says that a man next to his door is old and respectable", the one who claimed previously that the man next to his door is old and respectable, should/can not object....and that is what precisely many are doing here.....

That is not true the other guy who is claiming to be an old man is actualy a baby that is yet to crawl. All that we are saying here is that 'it is a baby and not a old man'
People who miscontrued the baby for the old man are ones that are creating a scene here :)

[srivatsan]

artificial - it is undoubtably an artificial language, its name itself says that it was created and not evolve naturally. It is the only language in the world to have this 'Create' thingi in its name, that is not all, it is the only language whose grammer (magnum opus infact) does not tell the name of the language, rather it does but calls it by another name, chandasa, does it not ring a bell buddy


That is precisely what I am asking you...what is your knowldege in Samskritham?........By this post of yours, I am now 1000% sure you have no idea about what is Samskritham but for a bunch of Dwesham. But you are still not clear in what you are trying to say......

One of the differernt "Padam" for samskritham is "Samyak Krutham", which means, "Well Done".

If I am going to explain you how, the name Samskritham was coined for this language, You are not going to understand even the first step.....but I have no suggestion for you.....just becuz, a blind man can not see the Sun, doesn't mean Sun doesn't exist.....

[srivatsan]

That is not true the other guy who is claiming to be an old man is actualy a baby that is yet to crawl. All that we are saying here is that 'it is a baby and not a old man'
People who miscontrued the baby for the old man are ones that are creating a scene here :)

Smart buddy......I enjoy your Childish comments.....keep posting something like this, which would give hubbers a good laughter, atleast.

[srivatsan]

non classical language - for a language to be recognized as classical it has to qualify under certain criteria(google search would tell you that), sanskrit does not pass that test.


Mr. Mahadevan Click http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_language#List_of_classical_languages
See the definition of Classical Langauge and the list of Classical Languages....and after reading, plz dont say that, Wikipedia is a vedic Protogonist.... :!:

[srivatsan]

un precise - vedic protogonist say that a sentence in sanskrit can be construed in multiple ways because the same word has multiple meanings and there are a zillion words to state the same. This is often cited as the reason for not able to extract the so called buried knowledge in vedas

I again repeat it "never existed as a language, its status in India in the past is no different from today."

I seriously dont understand how you are able talk so much about which you have VOID knowledge? I appreciate your skill....

[bis_mala]

Every major feature in Bible is easily traceble back to Jend Avestha and Rig Veda.

Please give us more details on your statement above.

I intend to forward to a Christian theologian for his consideration and reply.

[mahadevan]

Devapriya wrote:
Every major feature in Bible is easily traceble back to Jend Avestha and Rig Veda

While all of them but for the vedas happened in the middle east so it is just a continium of ideas. Rig carried the same ideas because it was written by the same bunch of people either before or after their arrival in India. This is hardly surprisisng

[mahadevan]

srivatsan wrote :That is precisely what I am asking you...what is your knowldege in Samskritham?......

It is much more than most hubbers here

[mahadevan]

srivatsan wrote:Mr. Mahadevan Click http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_language#List_of_classical_languages
See the definition of Classical Langauge and the list of Classical Languages....and after reading, plz dont say that, Wikipedia is a vedic Protogonist....

sanskrit satisifes only one of the criteria, so it is not classical language

[srivatsan]

sanskrit satisifes only one of the criteria, so it is not classical language

Is this your conclusion :?: :lol:

[devapriya]

Bismala writes.


Devapriya wrote:
Every major feature in Bible is easily traceble back to Jend Avestha and Rig Veda.


Please give us more details on your statement above.

I intend to forward to a Christian theologian for his consideration and reply.
_________________
B.I. Sivamaalaa

None of the Interpretations of FSG & bISMALAS of Sangam Lit and other Forgeries and Fradulant dating are acceptable to any Neutral Scholars. My showing of Lingam Worship in Rig Veda, absence of Siva in Tholkappiyam -ABSOLUTE Absence of Lingam Worship in Sangam Lit, to Manimekhalai. Instead of Misinterpreting of Tholkappiyam's Seyon God of Kurinji Land( Mountains)- Seyon i.e., as Siva iscomplete misinterpretation of Truth.

Dating of Tholkappiyam can never be earlier then Ist Century CE (AD) And I quote Author of more than 60 books and presenter of Many Articles in International Universities on Brahmi inscrtiptions and Sangam Lit. DR.A.SWaminathan from his book- TAMILNATTU samuthaya panpaattu varalaaru -
// tholkappiyam kadaisanga nuulkalul pinthiyathu enak kuuralam. ..
innuul 2000 Andukatku murpattatyhu ana aRignarkal Ku ruvar." Page 92.//
As per this learned author Vedas were prevalent in Sangam Days and let me post in my next posts.

On Asoka Inscription and its Dechipherment -Scholars first Transilarated this Pragrit to Sanskrit and only then the interpretations were possible, i.e., they were composed in Sanskrit and written in Pragrit.
So Please stop meaningless posts.
Devapriya.