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ananth222
13th August 2005, 02:05 AM
For quite some time now, I have been completely mesmerised by "Study for violin" by IR from "How to name it". It just doesn't seem to wear off!
The song itself is based on the Thiagaraaja krithi called "Thulasi dala" set in maayamaalava gowla. I managed to hear some other "pure carnatic" versions, and the krithi itself is just amazing. but to me, none of the renditions were as captivating as "study for violin".
Now my idea (or request, or hope) is that IR should take up other krithis and fuse them with a western classical backing. The thought of hearing "duddugugala" or "baagaayanayya" or even "manavyalakim" like that is undescribable.
In an interview to BBC, when asked about "study for violin", IR just said "atha panradhu kashtam illa. idhamaadhiri neraya irukkuthu. Adhukku veliyilerundhu sponsors kedaikaadhathunaala, panna aatkal irunthaalum athai panna mudiyuvathilla. " and brushing off the technical expertise saying "adhu onnum periya vishayam illa". so it should not be very difficult for him, if he has sponsors.
does anyone else like this idea or would appreciate an album like that?
there may be some criticism form "carnatic purists", but hey, we cannot worry about people who have nothing better to do than to oppose everything that comes in the market!

vijayr
13th August 2005, 12:41 PM
ananth, I have thought on those lines long time back. I thought that one of the ultimate experiments in classicval crossover would be composing a full-fledged krithi(where IR can leave the rendition to a better singer)with neraval, RTP, thani avardhanam and other usual features and then using a symphonic backing during the whole song that enhances the rendition. I am not sure how it sound or will be received, but it would be worth exploring for someone like IR.So far his vocal portions have'nt been quite demanding, with emphasis being on mostly orchestration. So this would be the next ideal step for him, IMO. I dont think the so-called carnatic purists would mind as long as he doesnt render them.

abbydoss1969
13th August 2005, 08:34 PM
ananth, I have thought on those lines long time back. I thought that one of the ultimate experiments in classicval crossover would be composing a full-fledged krithi(where IR can leave the rendition to a better singer)with neraval, RTP, thani avardhanam and other usual features and then using a symphonic backing during the whole song that enhances the rendition. I am not sure how it sound or will be received, but it would be worth exploring for someone like IR.So far his vocal portions have'nt been quite demanding, with emphasis being on mostly orchestration. So this would be the next ideal step for him, IMO. I dont think the so-called carnatic purists would mind as long as he doesnt render them.
Vijayr,
Probably he has done in his films already,one way or other. Classical music with WCM.

ananth222
13th August 2005, 11:36 PM
Vijayr,
Probably he has done in his films already,one way or other. Classical music with WCM.

yes IR has mixed carnatic and WCM in films. But what we are talking about here is taking complete krithis and fusing it with WCM.
I agree with vijay that IR should't sing himself. I was actually thinking abt just instrumental, say violin or veena. But a singer with a powerful voice would also make it great. BMK in his prime would have been perfect.

MumbaiRamki
14th August 2005, 02:28 AM
This was already attempted by Narasimhan in his album Resonance

vijayr
14th August 2005, 02:40 AM
For examples, the semi-classicals from Ivan and Ponmeghalai had the usual minimal accompaniment. Something like that could be taken up and set to a full-fledged orchestral backing.

Mumbai Ramki, am aware of Resonance but would prefer strong vocals -as it is the main essence of Carnatic music. There are certain things human voices could do which mere instruments cant.We have plenty of vocal talent. IR has to pick a strong voice, do a 45-min Krithi(alapana, thanam, neraval etc. -the complete package) and then harmonize it. Now that would be a true classical crossover attempt.

vijayr
14th August 2005, 02:54 AM
Resonance was actually a terrific effort that didnt quite get the recognition it deserves. In TN you have to be either a MD or hang around in the popular music arena in order for your serious works to get noticed. Sad.

ananth222
14th August 2005, 04:08 AM
I have not heard resonance
Isn't Narasimhan the same person who played the violin for HTNI and NBW?

vijayr
15th August 2005, 12:16 AM
Ananth, yes he is. I found this link after a search. if you are interested
http://www.themusicmagazine.com/resonance.html

While reading that column I was reminded of another noteworthy effort that probably went unnoticed in India. In fact I had posted about in TFMDF aboyt 2-3 years back. Its a concept calle "Melharmony" pioneered by Ravikiran, where in only the notes used in the scale is used in the chords and harmony, from what I understood. NowI havent listened to this, but it sounds like a worthy effort
http://www.themusicmagazine.com/ravikiranbbc.html
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2004072602692000.htm&date=2004/07/26/&prd=th&

baroque
15th August 2005, 06:48 AM
Vijayr says, "There are certain things human voices could do which mere instruments cant.We have plenty of vocal talent. IR has to pick a strong voice, do a 45-min Krithi(alapana, thanam, neraval etc. -the complete package) and then harmonize it. Now that would be a true classical crossover attempt"

I suggest Ilayaraaja to pick Aruna sairam for this effort. but of course Aruna Sairam's voice so divinely we don't need harmonizing etc.. I like to see my favorite carnatic musician sings in Raaja's music, yeppadi yerukkum?

vijayr
15th August 2005, 01:25 PM
baroque, thats a pretty good choice. My friend, who interacted with her when she came to US for one of her concerts told me that she was quite friendly in person too. She bothers to explain the basic concepts to audiences during her concerts, atleast here in US. She has a rousing voice.

IR has already done a classical album with Mandolin Srinivas. He can do the same with good vocals and western classical interludes, even if harmonizing a Krithi during the vocals sounds outlandish. Think of something like Sindhubhairavi(Poomalai vaangi vandhaan) but in a higher plane.To add further to this project, IR could take up select verses from other such great Tamil(or Sanskrit/Hindi/Bengali) literary works for tuning the krithi to. Hindusthani classical hasnt been explored a whole lot by IR. How about a Hindusthani/WCM crossover attempt?

(As an aside, its a shame KJY is no longer in his prime.None of his current wannabes in TFM could hold a candle to him in his heyday)

alias
15th August 2005, 10:13 PM
I think the best for IR would be do remixes of his old songs. Else nothing new will suit him.

nilavupriyan
15th August 2005, 10:52 PM
I think the best for IR would be do remixes of his old songs. Else nothing new will suit him.

thats what arr is doing now.............remixing ir songs.....so ir doesnt have to do it :lol:

njv
16th August 2005, 12:13 AM
nilavupriyan

There should be atleast some truth while bashing MD like ARR. Tell me ONE ARR song that even resemble IR song. It really hurt ARR fan's feelings.

alias

All other MD's are studying what western worlding is going towards in music industry and trying to simulate the same in Indian soil and giving the music, which obviously is liked by our current generation ppl. On the other hand, IR just gives what flows in his mind and heart. Thats the reason why I see the un-interrupted flow in IR song that is hard to find in any other MD.

As far as IR remix is concerned, IR wont have to do it. It will be done by the upcoming MDs and the new generation of RAP/HIP/HOP music ppl.

alias
16th August 2005, 12:17 AM
I think the best for IR would be do remixes of his old songs. Else nothing new will suit him.

thats what arr is doing now.............remixing ir songs.....so ir doesnt have to do it :lol:

That clearly shows ur knowledge about music :lol: No Comments.

njv, what is the harm in remixing his old classics. I dont see any. Why do u take in wrong way? Instead of others spoiling his music like YSR adutha varisu and Das song, he can do it with modern rhthym. Something interesting. Whether the younger generation will do justice to his songs is a really question mark.

ananth222
16th August 2005, 12:35 AM
Instead of others spoiling his music like YSR adutha varisu and Das song, he can do it with modern rhthym

what do you mean by "modern rhythm"?
To me IR is the king of rhythm. A lot of "modern rhythm" is only good for punks with ruddy cars loaded with 1000W music systems blasting of periodic booms like a metronome from jupiter.
IRs rhythm patterns have no match the way they are. The last thing we need is for someone to screw it up.

Coming back to the topic, the highlight of carnatic krithis is the way they lend themselves to improvisation. Carnatic is almost like jazz, and the lead performer gets to show their prowess. At the same time, IR has shown how it can be arranged with WCM before, and the effect it creates. In such a scenario, the singer will not be able to improvise (cos IR will be setting any "improvisations" himself). This will give rise to many possibilities and interesting situations that a high profile performer doing the lead may have trouble dealing with. Any thoughts on that?

alias
16th August 2005, 01:49 AM
/A lot of "modern rhythm" is only good for punks with ruddy cars loaded with 1000W music systems blasting of periodic booms like a metronome from jupiter. /

Are u telling me that IR cannot compose those kind of so called "Modern Rhtyhm"? I thought a rhythm is a rhythm.. whether carnatic or heavy beat (please not metal), IR can do a good job. But with your statement looks like IR has certain limitation?

ananth222
16th August 2005, 02:00 AM
Are u telling me that IR cannot compose those kind of so called "Modern Rhtyhm"?

I meant that I am not interested in such rhythm.
I don't want to prove what rhythm IR can compose and what he cannot. My point was that IR can compose much better rhythm, and that is what I would like him to continue doing.

Two points alias: try to read statements for what they are, and don't twist them to create arguments. And try to stick to the topic.

alias
16th August 2005, 02:20 AM
Dude, you need to make your statement clear instead of jumping on me. If you had said that I dont like such rhythm, that make sense whether IR likes making it or not but u did not say that. Anyway I was trying to make MY POINT here about IR doing remixes here. Thats all.

baroque
16th August 2005, 03:26 AM
[tscii:8dfadb9ff9]VijayR,
Yes I have heard, Aruna Sairam has a huge powerful stage presence with the ability to communicate & lecture about the art forms. Her concerts with variety of songs, I love the most! Varnams, krithi,tamil thukkadas, abhang, folk songs,virutham,pasuram,thillanas... she is amazing!!
Madhurasmiriti– that slokam with krith “sadha saranga...” in Sriranjani simply stunning virutham & thillana– sema musicianship!!
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/1/s/album.73/artist.110/
Aruna Sairam orchestra voda classical albums panniyerukkala?
Ilayaraaja should do a project with this Virtuous artist!! 100% lively aa yerukkum! . [/tscii:8dfadb9ff9]

baroque
16th August 2005, 04:39 AM
ananth222,
Yes, you have a point. More reasons I suggest Ilayaraaja should do with artists like Aruna Sairam. She is very sophisticated. She will be open to new music forms, same time she will perform with out diluting her standards with pride and devotion, at the end we will be rewarded with a phenomenal music entertains us emotionally & spiritually! Awesome indeed.

ezy0265
16th August 2005, 07:16 AM
Please you music fans out there, don't waste your time answering to alias.....

From what I have observed even in other threads, he is simply a dumb a** that can't be categorised easily. One thing is for sure, he is a disgrace to all ARR fans. He has a very low IQ i think, he makes various nonsensical statements and argues like a lawyer who thinks that he has gone to law school, when in fact he failed his entrance interview!

So alias, please take your sh*t somewhere else and kindly like a cat, cover it up with some sand.....

baroque
16th August 2005, 10:20 AM
It should have been sada saranga... ranjani, not sriranjani!

vijayr
16th August 2005, 10:39 AM
Ananth, dont get sidetracked into meaningless arguments with alias.

Ananth, I am not sure how IR composes semi-classicals. When I listen to his semi-classicals from Ponmegalai I can't imagine him singing the entire song to SudhaR. I wonder whether he writes down the basic notations and does give the singer freedom to improvise just a little considering her stature. For regular light songs probably he has completely control. Those days, MDs like KVM or GR who were good classical singers themselves used to sing the entire tune themselves. Not sure how IR does it. Anyways, I believe with someone like Aruna Sairam, IR should allow some improvisations if the singer wishes so, record the vocals and then harmonize it. No point in cutting out the improvisations as they are the heart and soul of ICM(much like Jazz).
To write harmonies for those extra gamakas/sangathis the singer adds is in itself a challenge.

ananth222
16th August 2005, 11:49 AM
Yes, I guess a viable option would be let the singer improvise freely in parts, and use Irs genius to mix the WCM harmonizations. Incidentally, this would shift the emphasis of the production from an "IR work" to something like "IR with Aruna Sairam" or something like that. As much as I worship IR, I am really not sure how open he would be to an idea like that, where he is not the only main player himself.

another option is that IR lets the singer improvise completely freely, but makes several recordings of each song. He can then pick out the best parts, edit it, mix it and put it back together and then mix the WCM.

That said, it opens great possibilities. Maybe an RTP where the singer completely improvises the alapana in solo, and the symphony kicks in for the thaanam part, and grows full blown by the end - that would really be interesting.

baroque
16th August 2005, 12:11 PM
vijayR and ananth, very interesting keep going with your thoughts!! :D

nilavupriyan
16th August 2005, 12:55 PM
nilavupriyan

There should be atleast some truth while bashing MD like ARR. Tell me ONE ARR song that even resemble IR song. It really hurt ARR fan's feelings.

alias

All other MD's are studying what western worlding is going towards in music industry and trying to simulate the same in Indian soil and giving the music, which obviously is liked by our current generation ppl. On the other hand, IR just gives what flows in his mind and heart. Thats the reason why I see the un-interrupted flow in IR song that is hard to find in any other MD.

As far as IR remix is concerned, IR wont have to do it. It will be done by the upcoming MDs and the new generation of RAP/HIP/HOP music ppl.

njv ..........i didnt mean it seriously......i just replied the stupid comment of alias for fun.

nilavupriyan
16th August 2005, 01:00 PM
I think the best for IR would be do remixes of his old songs. Else nothing new will suit him.

thats what arr is doing now.............remixing ir songs.....so ir doesnt have to do it :lol:

That clearly shows ur knowledge about music :lol: No Comments.

njv, what is the harm in remixing his old classics. I dont see any. Why do u take in wrong way? Instead of others spoiling his music like YSR adutha varisu and Das song, he can do it with modern rhthym. Something interesting. Whether the younger generation will do justice to his songs is a really question mark.

dude ....,i just replied ur stupid comment for fun........

"nothing new will suit him".....what do u mean by this new?
the trend in music or the the usage of instruments?"

if its about trend..........then ir cant do anything with it.even arr will have to suffer when he turns old.its common for all legends.

if it is the usage of musical instruments....ir is of world class....hear thiruvasagam in symphony and heyy raam bgm.

imho..,hey raam had the best bgm so far.

ir remixing???...do u say he cant compose fresh songs?

jaiganes
16th August 2005, 01:08 PM
vijay!
I guess you are being too harsh on IR for not composing semi classical or carnatic classical for other singers. In Guru ramana geetham there are two krithis one sung by unni and another sung by Bombay Jayshree. I was watching "Bharathi" in the middle of the night on 14th Aug (well into 15th Morning) on National (I was happy that they showed it in DD national). All the songs fit into the category you mentioned and I enjoyed them thoroughly, particularly "Ninnai charan adaindhaen" be BJ. IR's version makes a minute 1 min appearance in the movie. I guess for classical carnatic pieces, IR sings and records them as a track, which he chooses to use in an appropriate situation as BGM in the movie. His version is (again I guess) used by the singers to rehearse, train and then record. As far as neravals and bruhas in IR's keerthanais by other singers, it would be a great idea for the medium of movie restricts the time available for a singer to contribute to the song and hence the MDs tend to be a bit more strict. I was watching Aboorva Raagangal and the "Kaelviyin naayaganae" song is a classical example of how to use a singer for a movie situation. Every aalapanai in the song was cleverly used by Balachander and MSV to show a character's position in the scene.

If you let some one like Hariharan or Shankar Mahadevan to go into Alaap mode then you can forget your composition!!! They will come out with something of their own(might be good!) and you can keep guessing what happened to your song. Again this is an inference after watching hariharan's Isayodu pirandhaen program on Vijay, where Hariharan went on to sculpt his own "Pachai niramae"!!!Sometimes what he does borders abaswaram and become unbearable. So your advice to come out with a "Krithi + singer neraval" is fraught with risque. Idea is better if singer cuts down on neraval in the CD recording and adds it in a concert meant for promotion, which again can be released as a separate CD!! (double marketing)!!!

vijayr
16th August 2005, 01:40 PM
"I guess you are being too harsh on IR for not composing semi classical or carnatic classical for other singers"

Jaiganes,IR rarely sings semi-classicals himself. Whenever he composes serious semi-classicals its mostly for other singers.
So no, I didnt mean that.
I was commenting on some of his non-filmi albums where he has sung like TIS, Guru Ramana geetham etc.The songs that he has chosen to sing arent semi-classicals, they are much simpler. The slightly tougher songs he has given to BombayJaya/UnniK.

I believe that if he composes a serious carnatic album that demands authentic classical singing, he wouldnt sing it himself.TIS and his other devotional albums dont fall into that category.

vijayr
16th August 2005, 01:48 PM
"So your advice to come out with a "Krithi + singer neraval" is fraught with risque. Idea is better if singer cuts down on neraval in the CD recording and adds it in a concert meant for promotion, which again can be released as a separate CD!! (double marketing)!!!"

well, he has to choose the singer carefully. SudhaR seems to have done a pretty good job in Ponmeghalai. So I dont think its undoable.Likewise, a good male voice is needed.Right now, no one stands out. OS.Arun? Vijay Siva? I dont know.But definitely not Bhavadharini, pleaase.

For a Hindusthani/WCM crossover, Pt. Ajay Chakraborthy is the ultimate. I would give an arm and leg to see IR and him collaborate, but I guess its just wishful thinking.

"As much as I worship IR, I am really not sure how open he would be to an idea like that, where he is not the only main player himself. "

Ananth, I have the same doubt. In fact this is one aspect of IR that hasnt gone down well even with singers like SPB. He is simply not a singer's composer.But since he has worked with KJY/TNS/SudhaR before in classical songs, I am still optimistic.

jaiganes
16th August 2005, 02:41 PM
vijay wrote:

I believe that if he composes a serious carnatic album that demands authentic classical singing, he wouldnt sing it himself.TIS and his other devotional albums dont fall into that category.
I agree.

The slightly tougher songs he has given to BombayJaya/UnniK.
True. However on careful observation you would also find that he has kept to himself songs that are auto-biographical or some kind of his personal expression, more or less like "here is what I think of xyz". As far a letting bhavadharini sing, i guess it is "thandhai magalukaatrum kadan"(case in point: Have you heard "Aaraavamudhae" from Arunachala maalai(?)) . I hope you will agree with me on Bhava's voice has improved a lot on hearing "Poovaeru koanum" from TIS. Again if we compare that with anyone else's voice like harini, then we are opening another argument channel.

Vijay also wrote:


Likewise, a good male voice is needed.Right now, no one stands out. OS.Arun? Vijay Siva? I dont know.But definitely not Bhavadharini, pleaase.
male voice right? why bring in Bhavadharini. Seems like she is Bhayadharini for you!!!
My vote for male voice goes to Unnikrishnan. He seems to know how to restrain himself according to the song and still bring out the bhava(Which IR expects the most). Second best would be OSA ,Rajkumar Bharathi and S.P.Ramh not necessarily in that order. I have a feeling that IR has a special feeling for KJY kinda voice (one reason as to why Madhu balakrishnan gets more classical opportunities under IR's baton).
vijay also wrote:

For a Hindusthani/WCM crossover, Pt. Ajay Chakraborthy is the ultimate.
Was he not the singer used in HeyRam's "Isayil thodngudhamma" ?
vijay also wrote:

In fact this is one aspect of IR that hasnt gone down well even with singers like SPB.
This could well be speculation. IR is from old school. What he would like is for the singer to rehearse and do straight away what is in the track (this is for film music). In non-filmi albums, his work has always tended to be in the devotional side and he probably doesn't appreciate much of bruhas and alaaps in devotional songs as that might alienate the album from a common man. I for one do not like devotional songs to be too complex, for complexity, i would buy a Mharajapuram album and relish it dayin and dayout. Of course singers don't like it either. They want their voice in IR's tune and with a lot of their own alaaps. In that area we have reached an unbridgeable set of points. All of this is my own inferences and I might be terrible off the mark .

alias
16th August 2005, 08:39 PM
[quote="alias"][quote=nilavupriyan]
dude ....,i just replied ur stupid comment for fun........

"nothing new will suit him".....what do u mean by this new?
the trend in music or the the usage of instruments?"

if its about trend..........then ir cant do anything with it.even arr will have to suffer when he turns old.its common for all legends.

if it is the usage of musical instruments....ir is of world class....hear thiruvasagam in symphony and heyy raam bgm.

imho..,hey raam had the best bgm so far.

ir remixing???...do u say he cant compose fresh songs?

I know you are stupid to reply to a stupid post. :lol: But my answer is Yes IR cannot compose anything new. Even TIS without symphony orchestra help would not have been this good. So IR alone is not responsible for coming with a good album in this case.

And see you contradict yourself, you asked me not to bring IR in one of the post for defending ARR but you did it yourself. So the advise is only for others and not to you. Good :wink:

nilavupriyan
16th August 2005, 09:14 PM
[quote=alias][quote=nilavupriyan]
dude ....,i just replied ur stupid comment for fun........

"nothing new will suit him".....what do u mean by this new?
the trend in music or the the usage of instruments?"

if its about trend..........then ir cant do anything with it.even arr will have to suffer when he turns old.its common for all legends.

if it is the usage of musical instruments....ir is of world class....hear thiruvasagam in symphony and heyy raam bgm.

imho..,hey raam had the best bgm so far.

ir remixing???...do u say he cant compose fresh songs?

I know you are stupid to reply to a stupid post. :lol: But my answer is Yes IR cannot compose anything new. Even TIS without symphony orchestra help would not have been this good. So IR alone is not responsible for coming with a good album in this case.

And see you contradict yourself, you asked me not to bring IR in one of the post for defending ARR but you did it yourself. So the advise is only for others and not to you. Good :wink:

this is again a stupid comment from a stupid..........they didnt play the music of their own.....they are playing the notes written by ilayaraja.......will arr's music will look better without any orchestration?

they are just people hired to play musical instruments.....its ir who had composed the music

alias
16th August 2005, 09:31 PM
Wow dude, you defintely rock in these stupid comments. IR wrote the note to tell them how to compose symphony.:lol:. wow what a joke. He has written notes according to Indian standard and they would have elevated it to symphony. So dont blow horns here :-)

nilavupriyan
16th August 2005, 09:38 PM
Wow dude, you defintely rock in these stupid comments. IR wrote the note to tell them how to compose symphony.:lol:. wow what a joke. He has written notes according to Indian standard and they would have elevated it to symphony. So dont blow horns here :-)

u r the greatest idiot i have ever seen.............what do u mean by indian standard?tell me that first

next do u know ir is a genious in western classical music...............and do u know that he had already composed a symphony before.

if u continue the same thing.........its easy for me to say that arr used to compose only the tune and the mixtures of sounds and technical aspects used in his songs were done completely by the musicians and technicians used by him :lol: :lol:

vijayr
16th August 2005, 09:56 PM
"In non-filmi albums, his work has always tended to be in the devotional side and he probably doesn't appreciate much of bruhas and alaaps in devotional songs as that might alienate the album from a common man."

Jaiganes, you cannot aim even classical works for the comman man. HTNI and NBW werent for the comman man. When sophistication/complexity in orchestra is employed by IR(what does the common man know about counterpoints/chord progressions), a little more complexity/sophistication in the vocals department wouldnt hurt I think. It all depends on the composition/voice/presentation. Songs like Oru naaL podhuma or paattum naane are very popular even amongst the general public despite their complexity. In films, IR tries to dilute the tune aspect in order to reach down to the lowest common denominator. I wish he doesnt do it in his serious classical works. Talking about "old school" composing which you mentioned, in olden days MDs used to sing the tracks. But since they were great classical singers themselves(which IR isnt) their track rendition itself was embellished with a lot of sangathis. All the singer had to do was mere reproduction. But in IR's case, I believe a little impro might be needed on the part of the singer, especially at his age he might not be able to convey everything thru his voice(which is why ICM might be a bit challenging to him). But the choice of singer is critical. Annamacharya krithis, for instance, are slightly more complex than your regular devotional songs but not too complex to listen to, and especially when you hear it in MSS's voice it sounds great. Something along similiar lines could be attempted. IR can do it. He made a song like "Mari mari ninne", set in an alien language, popular in TN.

njv
16th August 2005, 10:26 PM
Wow dude, you defintely rock in these stupid comments. IR wrote the note to tell them how to compose symphony.:lol:. wow what a joke. He has written notes according to Indian standard and they would have elevated it to symphony. So dont blow horns here :-)
Alias

For both first and second symphony IR wrote the western symphonic notes by himself. FYI, he is a gold medalist from London Trinity college for music. IR is more popular for his western notes than anything else. In re-recording, IR watch the movie (usually 10 minute clip at a time) once and start writing notes, as if he has done some homework for 10 years, and when he is done writing notes, it will be distributed to all the individual instrumentalist and eventually after few rehearsals, it will be recorded.

I am sure you dont know these because you dont pay much attention to IR, but in IR yahoo group, there was a series of autography about IR that someone wrote who is also a friend of IR, and IR's music life is very well explained there.

If you have some time, listen to BBC's "Paatrondru Kettaen" and specially chapter 35 to 45. It talks about IR's greatness. Hopefully the author will do similar write up for ARR soon,since he is going from 30s and now only he completed IR, so ARR is probably the next person he will write.

nilavupriyan
16th August 2005, 10:29 PM
Wow dude, you defintely rock in these stupid comments. IR wrote the note to tell them how to compose symphony.:lol:. wow what a joke. He has written notes according to Indian standard and they would have elevated it to symphony. So dont blow horns here :-)
Alias

For both first and second symphony IR wrote the western symphonic notes by himself. FYI, he is a gold medalist from London Trinity college for music. IR is more popular for his western notes than anything else. In re-recording, IR watch the movie (usually 10 minute clip at a time) once and start writing notes, as if he has done some homework for 10 years, and when he is done writing notes, it will be distributed to all the individual instrumentalist and eventually after few rehearsals, it will be recorded.

I am sure you dont know these because you dont pay much attention to IR, but in IR yahoo group, there was a series of autography about IR that someone wrote who is also a friend of IR, and IR's music life is very well explained there.

If you have some time, listen to BBC's "Paatrondru Kettaen" and specially chapter 35 to 45. It talks about IR's greatness. Hopefully the author will do similar write up for ARR soon,since he is going from 30s and now only he completed IR, so ARR is probably the next person he will write.

do u mean the ir's interview to bbc tamil????...its really excellent.the songs which i had thought so common seems to have greater musical standard.

ananth222
16th August 2005, 10:46 PM
Even TIS without symphony orchestra help would not have been this good. So IR alone is not responsible for coming with a good album in this case.

This is like saying that a chicken biriani would not be so good without the chicken, so the cook is useless! What a brain this guy has! Anyway i think I must try harder to not respond to such inane arguments.

I agree with the view that IR should not compromise on the complexity of the music. If taken up, this work must be done to bing out the technical intricacies of both carnatic and WCM. it may not have mass appeal, but I'm sure it will stand out like many classical works in music that have stood for hundreds of years.

Regarding male voice, I am not very convinced abt unnikrishnan. i agree he has a very melodious voice, but I believe a fusion will sound better with a very powerful voice, like the great MD Ramanathan - if he was around he would make a great choice!
check out his songs here:
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/1/m/artist.46/

vijayr
16th August 2005, 10:58 PM
" but I believe a fusion will sound better with a very powerful voice, like the great MD Ramanathan "

Well, it seems like most of the singers we have in mind are'nt singing any more or arent around :-( I havent been quite in touch with the carnatic scene lately, so I cant seem to summon up a suitable name for a male singer. The current crop of young TFM singers - none of them would cut it. I am not afan of MadhuB, he has a slight nasal touch at times and his tonal quality is nowhere near KJY's. Him and Vijay yesudoss are poor substitutes for KJY. IR should look out for entirely different voices rather than sticking with sons of legends.

alias
16th August 2005, 11:02 PM
Hi Idiots nilavupriyan and ananth, First understand my point and then talk. I never said IR never composed notes or tunes for symphony you fools. All I am saying is he never composed the symphony. He writes the notes and the rest is taken care by the person whom the symphony is credited of composing. So use your idiotic brains before answering you -------.

njv, I can understand about the above fools but u too did not get my point. I never said he did compose the tunes or notes. I meant the IR notes were elevateed to symphony by Laszlo Kovacs who conducted the Symphony Orchestra and finally mastered by Richard King.

nilavupriyan
16th August 2005, 11:07 PM
Hi Idiots nilavupriyan and ananth, First understand my point and then talk. I never said IR never composed notes or tunes for symphony you fools. All I am saying is he never composed the symphony. He writes the notes and the rest is taken care by the person whom the symphony is credited of composing. So use your idiotic brains before answering you -------.

njv, you too did not understand my point. I never said he did compose the tunes. I meant the IR notes were elevateed to symphony by Laszlo Kovacs who conducted the Symphony Orchestra and finally mastered by Richard King.

ir doesnt have to depend upon those guys.......as he is already a master in western music.he completed his degree in london trinity college with honours........

ok.....if it is the way u said..then this must also be true

arr......is not a great musician.he just devices the tune.the remaining instrumentation and technologies used in his songs are done by the mucisians and technologists used by him....

alias
16th August 2005, 11:45 PM
Addeeyyy...(in koundamani style)...nee ange suthi enge suthi kadaisiyile...ARR kitte than varuvenu ennaku theriyum. Yes.....ARR is a great musician who device tunes and buys whatever the latest technologies exist in the market but he never does the arrangement because he has a paid arranger Srinivasa Murthy who does that for him.. Eppo pudhuma... ellai ennum konga venuma :lol:

ananth222
16th August 2005, 11:46 PM
Alias, for your information, Laszlo Kovac is a "conductor". He does not ARRANGE the music. IR does that. And IR has long been held as the best at orchestration in the industry (orchestration means actually arranging the music. )
If you don't know the definition of these terms then read this:
conducting: http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Conducting
orchestration: http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/orchestration

And please stop posting your stupid, biased, uneducated, fabricated nonsense in forums and threads that bear no relation to it.

alias
17th August 2005, 12:08 AM
Alias, for your information, Laszlo Kovac is a "conductor". He does not ARRANGE the music. IR does that. And IR has long been held as the best at orchestration in the industry (orchestration means actually arranging the music. )
If you don't know the definition of these terms then read this:
conducting: http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Conducting
orchestration: http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/orchestration

And please stop posting your stupid, biased, uneducated, fabricated nonsense in forums and threads that bear no relation to it.

Dude Ananth, there is really something seriously wrong with you. Where in my below post did I say Laszlo Kovacs arranged the music? I think u need a mental checkup buddy. And even I can spit out all these words of calling u an idiotic nonsense creature who is a burden to this world etc etc.. but i dont want to abuse u. So read my post first and then answer. Dont spit fire unneccesary :evil:

"Hi Idiots nilavupriyan and ananth, First understand my point and then talk. I never said IR never composed notes or tunes for symphony you fools. All I am saying is he never composed the symphony. He writes the notes and the rest is taken care by the person whom the symphony is credited of composing. So use your idiotic brains before answering you -------.

njv, I can understand about the above fools but u too did not get my point. I never said he did compose the tunes or notes. I meant the IR notes were elevateed to symphony by Laszlo Kovacs who conducted the Symphony Orchestra and finally mastered by Richard King.

nilavupriyan
17th August 2005, 12:13 AM
Addeeyyy...(in koundamani style)...nee ange suthi enge suthi kadaisiyile...ARR kitte than varuvenu ennaku theriyum. Yes.....ARR is a great musician who device tunes and buys whatever the latest technologies exist in the market but he never does the arrangement because he has a paid arranger Srinivasa Murthy who does that for him.. Eppo pudhuma... ellai ennum konga venuma :lol:

so...,arr doesnt make his music look rich...its his companions who make it.right?

idhu podhum...u have accepted urself

ananth222
17th August 2005, 12:21 AM
Dude Ananth, there is really something seriously wrong with you. Where in my below post did I say Laszlo Kovacs arranged the music? I think u need a mental checkup buddy.

you specifically said "He writes the notes and the rest is taken care by the person whom the symphony is credited of composing" which shows that you are uneducated. IR writes his entire score in STAFF NOTATION (I doubt u know the meaning of this but I cannot teach u everything). He is one of the few MDs who just writes down the staff notation from his mind as if writing a natural language, without keeping a keyboard next to him. He writes the entire score for the orchestra himself, for each instrument. It does not have to be "elevated" to any other notation (the fact u use the word "elevated" also shows how little you actually know about music).


And even I can spit out all these words of calling u an idiotic nonsense creature who is a burden to this world etc etc.. but i dont want to abuse u.

well you've already said "Hi Idiots nilavupriyan and ananth" and "So use your idiotic brains before answering you -------" so we already know what you are capable of, so no need for empty threats.

Again, if you don't know what you are talking about then please don't make a fool of yourself.

Sanjeevi
17th August 2005, 12:26 AM
Topic : An idea for a new album by IR

ananth222, alias, nilavupriyan and some others are giving a tremendous work.

:twisted: :banghead:

vijayr
17th August 2005, 12:37 AM
Ananth, I guess you are new to TFMpage. You must learn to discern between serious posters and troublemakers like alias/anyone else. Just a glance thru their posts would reveal that they have little or nothing to offer. Feel free to ignore them. Come up with more thoughts on future albums.

Sanjeevi
17th August 2005, 12:46 AM
Ananth, I guess you are new to TFMpage. You must learn to discern between serious posters and troublemakers like alias/anyone else. Just a glance thru their posts would reveal that they have little or nothing to offer. Feel free to ignore them. Come up with more thoughts on future albums.

vijayr,

Why you put only alias name here?

He is also nice. :D

alias
17th August 2005, 01:09 AM
Ananth, I guess you are new to TFMpage. You must learn to discern between serious posters and troublemakers like alias/anyone else. Just a glance thru their posts would reveal that they have little or nothing to offer. Feel free to ignore them. Come up with more thoughts on future albums.

Edhu nalla patam troublemaker. when you speak truth you get this name troublemaker. And ananth and nilavupriyan are peacemakers.. wow...keep it up.

And anath you just took the first part and left the latter to prove your point... You think you know everything but you are a below zero person. So please look at you before pointing fingures at others.

Ade mutaal nilavupriyan.. i said ARR is great musician.. he does not make the composition rich but makes his tune rich. poduma... eppo santoshama

arun
17th August 2005, 02:16 AM
A few years ago, the great composer Jerry Goldsmith compiled some of the best background scores from his films, reorchestrated and digitally remastered them and released an album named "Goldsmith Conducts Goldsmith". You can find some of the details here:

http://www.soundtrack.net/soundtracks/database/?id=3121

I am wondering how great it would be if IR comes up with a similar idea. The following are some of the my thoughts:

1. IR has scored a lot of brilliant background scores. The only way to hear them now is to see the films where they take place. An album like this will ensure that his background scores are not lost to posterity.

2. Unlike his songs, his background scores will have a greater appeal throughout the world. I am quite sure film music fans throughout the world would like his background scores. The point I am trying to drive home is that such a venture will not be a failure commercially.

3. It should not take a lot of time since the compositions are already in place. The only work he has got to do is to select a good symphony orchestra and probably reorchestrate/rearrange some of his compositions. It would be great if he also conducts the orchestra.

So what do you guys think?

ananth222
17th August 2005, 02:37 AM
Thats a nice idea arun.
IR has produced some real masterpieces in BGMs.
My recent favorite is "uppu" (a little known film starring roja)
you can listen here:
http://www.rakkamma.com/bgm_uppu.phtml
just the title song is enough!

but he must be careful when making an album out of BGMs. While they sound great in the situation, making stand-alone songs out of them is a gamble. For instance, I don't think that India 24 hours matches up to the grandness and power of HTNI or NBW. But if correctly done, it will surely be a treat!

arun
17th August 2005, 02:50 AM
Ananth222, thanks for the Uppu link. The title music was great.

I think the the reason India 24 failed is because the score was pretty average. It was nothing compared to the background scores he scored for films like Mouna Raagam or Guru. You are right in that certain scores work best in the context of the film. But I feel several of his scores work even outside of the context of the film. Mouna Raagam theme is one that immediately comes to my mind. Infact I am coming up with a list of themes/suites that would work well in an album like this. I will post them soon.

prabhudas
17th August 2005, 06:06 AM
Hi Ananth,
Thanks for "Uppu" BGM link, terrific, any idea if this movie was released on DVD, too good man, U made my day.

Just curious, IR tells, he has lots of ideas but needs proper sponsorship to do some experimental projects ( BBC interview), how expensive will be a project to do some albums on the lines of "Resonance" ( VS Narismhan's) or in the lines of what u or Vijay have suggested, I mean he doesn't have to go to Hungary, he could use musicians from here and use some best available recording facility in India.
IR's sons should take some initiative, especially KR being less busy, I wonder why these 2 guys don't have any such urge. In an interview couple of years ago, YSR mentioned about his desire to produce movies in "Parallel Cinema" genre and to make private albums, he could as well start with these kind of projects, God only knows what kind of family dynamics they have , not realising what kind of treasure is still in IR.
In a recent article in "Deccan Herald" there was a interview with ARR ( when he anounced about a concert in Bangalore sometime in October this year), he had mentioned about making some new albums.
( either remix/remastered version) of his old hit songs, (which was kind of surprising considering his recording which are much much better than other MDs)the reason he gave was instead of other doing remix of his songs , he wanted to do by himself.

Just a very basic question, pardon my ignorance, can somebody explain the importance of 'improvisation" in ICM, the history, is it an universal adaptation/requirement or individual style, did the original krithis define any limits/restrictions in "improvisation"
I learnt about it only listening to Jazz music, BTW, for those interested there is a great thread in Dhool.com discussing Jazz music.

Prabhudas

Shankar
17th August 2005, 11:56 AM
arun,
The same idea was discussed with Raja sometime back (a friend of mine visited Raja)...But according to Raja the rights for the scores are with the producers and hence Raja thought it would be a difficult thing to do.

However, if this materializes, I would like to have the following pieces in the album.

1. Idhayathai thirudAdhEy title theme.
2. Idhayam theme (various moods, as different movements - more on this later)
3. Johnny theme and its variants
4. apoorva sahodharargaL title (and theme)
5. Modern concerto (from rajapaarvai - its recording quality is pathetic)
6. pallavi anupallavi title (i heard its one of the Best title scores by Raja)

jaiganes
17th August 2005, 12:07 PM
arun wote:

I think the the reason India 24 failed is because the score was pretty average.
I am not trying to defend IR at any cost. But this statement is sweeping and there is a basic mistake in that it tries to compare pieces of music that are completely different. I liked 24hrs (subjective) simply because I saw the documentary too. Also the basic piece of melody is the same and it gets morphed based on the context . In one context it is a devotional piece with all tablas, in another it is a techno piece fully rendered in synth and in another it is a haunting flute piece ala Nothing But Wind and finally in another piece it is a tribal chorus. It kinda conveyed that the soul of India is the same, mystic truth , yet flavours are as varied as the regions of India. I guess you may want to revisit India 24hrs and listen to it again.

As for prabhu's question on improvisation in ICM, I guess vijay's responses earlier suffice. Neraval and Bruha's plus aalaapanais in keerhanais are the only places in a carnatic concert where the singer can put in his / her own imagination. In hindustani , there is more stress to this aalaap. My manager gave three volumes of Bhimsen Joshi as a gift on getting confirmed, each one runs for an hour and it is only one raag. This meant that the actual song is only 10 mins and the rest of the 50 mins are Bhimsen Joshi's improvisations. If someone is as skilled as BSD then listening is ecstatic, however with a lesser singer, these improvisations can be tortuous and tiresome and boring.

Shankar
17th August 2005, 12:14 PM
Does anyone have the links ( mp3) for the songs from ponmeghalai ?

nilavupriyan
17th August 2005, 12:18 PM
Ananth, I guess you are new to TFMpage. You must learn to discern between serious posters and troublemakers like alias/anyone else. Just a glance thru their posts would reveal that they have little or nothing to offer. Feel free to ignore them. Come up with more thoughts on future albums.

Edhu nalla patam troublemaker. when you speak truth you get this name troublemaker. And ananth and nilavupriyan are peacemakers.. wow...keep it up.

And anath you just took the first part and left the latter to prove your point... You think you know everything but you are a below zero person. So please look at you before pointing fingures at others.

Ade mutaal nilavupriyan.. i said ARR is great musician.. he does not make the composition rich but makes his tune rich. poduma... eppo santoshama

rich tune????????? what do u mean by that u moron.....

adheppadi adhu tuna richa panna mudiyum.........a tune is always made rich by instrumentations.

this shows how intelligent u r........

thumburu
17th August 2005, 01:20 PM
nilavupriyan, I request u to take ur fight with alias elsewhere. If u have anything useful, relevant to the topic, please contribute.

"Neraval and Bruha's plus aalaapanais in keerhanais are the only places in a carnatic concert where the singer can put in his / her own imagination." - Jaiganesh you have missed the important "kalpanaswaras" , sangathis which further showcase an artiste's "manodharmam". In carnatic music, the ragam and thaalam should adhere to the original composition Rest are left to the individual's imagination.
My wishlist for IR are
1. Somehow get the RPO symphony released. Musically it might be richer than TIO and it was written when Raja was during his creative best.
2. His next non filmi venture should be predominantly carnatic music based. He should NOT use the scales like shanmugapiya/simhendramadhyamam/keeravani or mmg or kalyani , shankarabharanam , mohanam, suddhadhanyasi , hamsanandhi/panthuvaraaLi . Instead he should go for scales he has not used frequently Bilahari,Bhairavi, Ataana , Behaag , Kambhodhi, Malayamarudham, Dhanyasi , Dharmavathi etal. WCM can be seamlessly interwoven. But the feel should be only Carnatic.
3. I should not hear him or his family members in the vocals.
Female choice : BombayJaishri, Gayathri Girish, Arunasairam, Sowmya, Nithyashree, Chitra
Male: ShankarMahadevan, Sanjaysubramanian, AshokRamani

jaiganes
17th August 2005, 01:33 PM
thumburu's wishlist echoe mine.

WCM can be seamlessly interwoven. But the feel should be only Carnatic.

Classical raaga that can expose seamless fusion between the two is CHARUKESI. Both IR and ARR seem to enjoy adding orchestration in charukesi. InTIS IR had used charukesi for the last quartet in "Putril Vaazh Aravum". Similar usage of charukesi was done by ARR in Legend of Bhagat sing song Sarfarosh ki tamanna pathos version. However the best charukesi I ever heard in WCM orchestration was by Thomas Newman in "Road to Peredition". The way charukesi is orchestrated is so striking and amazing. I would love to see a Thomas Newman-IR-ARR collaboration.
In many places in "Road to Peredition" I could see IR touches in Thomas Newman's music. Classic example is the scene where Michael Sullivan(TomHanks)'s wife and children are murdered. A parallel that struck me was Poo vizhi vasalile and Karpoora Mullai (Srividhya's murder) BGMs.

Shankar
17th August 2005, 04:05 PM
jaiganes,
>>>>>>
I would love to see a Thomas Newman-IR-ARR collaboration.
<<<<<<

I wouldn't want this combo...too many MDs, would spoil the album :-)

vijayr
17th August 2005, 08:57 PM
Thumburu, surprisingly we agree this time, on all of your points! :-) RPO #1 release would be great. Its a shame to think that we would never get to hear it. Will TIS's commercial success somehow prompt IR to do release it?

Regarding BGM pieces being re-orchestrated and released, wasnt "Moods of Ilayaraja" supposed to be that, atleast partly? Or was it an entirely new set of works freshly composed by IR?
I dont know what happened to that-it was supposed to be released by agimusic.

vijayr
17th August 2005, 09:04 PM
They have a mp3 sample link to Moods of IR here:
http://www.agimusic.com/

The piece sounds promising, more along the lines of India 24hrs than any orchestral work.

no announcement yet on the release.

baroque
17th August 2005, 11:40 PM
thumburu, I like your choice of Sanjay subramaniyan. I am glad VijayR and thumburu agree :D good for us!! :)

rajasaranam
17th August 2005, 11:53 PM
just then completed this scan and uploaded :)

A very interesting interview of IR by Prem-Ramesh. Iam giving the link here just because the topic somehow tries to give ideas for new albums of IR.
At page 16 of Pdf document there is an interesting anecdote about the making of music for 'India 24 hours'
enjoy reading folks :thumbsup:
http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/40641819_9bfb/bc/RAJA/Ilaiyaraja_Isaiyin_Thathuvamum_Azhagiyalum_Prem_Ra mesh_Inter.pdf?bfjR3ADBsj4MIkTC

emjay
18th August 2005, 12:56 AM
Hi,
The link doesn't seem to work. Please do the needful!!

ananth222
18th August 2005, 12:57 AM
Very good points thumburu
I was fortunate enuf to listen to sanjay subramaniam when he performed here in nashville. He has an amazing control and power in his voice. His "sankari sankuru" is still ringing in my ears.

jaiganes, I was not comparing I24H with HTNI or NBW - I was merely comparing the concept of an album made out of BGMs and one of stand alone songs. But I guess it will be better if the BGMs came from different movies, in different moods, as compared to I24H which was based on one program (and thus a little monotonous)

rajasaranam I'm not able to open your link.

baroque
18th August 2005, 05:02 AM
Advantage of doing new experiments with the artists like Aruna sairam or Jayashree or Sanjay etc.. -Maestros reign at the forefront of Music industry is they can bring big music companies come forward to produce too. See, Dr.BMK has done projects with Zakir Hussain. Both are senior artists, when they do they complement each other, perform in unison. Namba Ilayaraaja also can do that. This is a rt time, with TIS success, Shri. Ilayaraaja should initiate for the next project .

kiru
18th August 2005, 05:16 AM
Hi Guys,
If you want the singer to improvise, what do you think, the orchestra is going to play. You want the orchestra to improvise too ? It is going to be a mess. So whatever the singer is going to sing should be decided before hand. If that's the case, and if IR is the composer, he is going to tell the singer what all places he wants the gamakams etc. In Ivann, it was different, he let the singers to do their icm stuff, because, the songs had minimal orchestration/harmony.
Still, the idea of a very good singer singing for IR is a good one. But it is going to happen only if the subject is not devotional or 'autobiographical' as jaiganes calls it. Best bet, if you dont want to hear IR's voice is :-) is to ask for a totally instrumental album. This morning I was listening to a flute concerto by Mozarto. When the strings comes on, the effect is similar to 'namasivayam thaazh vaazhga' in TIS (actually, I should have put the comparison other way around, right :-))

Re: the role of conductor - I think 'arranging' is one of the jobs of a conductor as far as I understand it. If say, Michael Tilson Thomas, conducts a Vivaldi concerto , it is going to sound a little different from say, Claudio Abbado's. It is because, each conductor, chooses, different number of instruments for each section. When the composers write the score, they only have a 'clef' bass, treble in front of the line. The tempo is also set by the conductor, so the same concerto under different conductors will last for different time, say 45 instead of 50.

I think Lazlo Kovacs was arranging for IR, but I think IR has input into the arrangments. Similarly, Uttam Singh, would do the arrangements for IR earlier. But it is only for the orchestra. IR chooses the rhythm arrangements and changes during the course of the song. But as IR said in one interview, "adhula irukkar ovvoru notesum ennodadhu'. So whether there is a conductor or arranger in the picture or not, the musicians are playing only the notes written by IR.


Coming back to the strings - usually a tune/melody is split into 'sections' when given to the orchestra for playing it with strings.(eg. oliyilE therivadhu song and the BGM in the movie which plays this tune).
I dont want to hazard a guess for ARR, when the credits say, 'strings arranged by srinivasa murthy' :-)


BTW, IR's favorite singer is KJY. I think he mentions this in one public concert, while SPB himself was on stage. He also like PBS. Listen to some PBS songs by GKV, while IR was working with him. It is almost like IR songs.

vijayr
18th August 2005, 05:48 AM
The singer should be allowed to improvise and the vocals recorded completely before IR sets to even write the score for the orchestra. Thats the challenge for him. Its like giving pre-written lyrics to him and asking him to set tune to, but of greater difficulty than that. I am not sure if it would work or if it would suit IRs working style which has always been orchestration-friendly and not singer-friendly.

baroque
18th August 2005, 06:03 AM
I am suggesting the best singers for VijayR's idea like RTP. For raga aalapana, let the singer take the lead, create the mood, show her creativity but Raaja can take lead in Taanam part, tani aavartanam is there, even in kalpanaswara, accompanists play a big role rt. Kalpana swarathiluley at the end together they all join and provide a grant climax. I am thinking that line. regular RTP format with IR's style, Why not??

njv
18th August 2005, 07:05 AM
GUYS

WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING THIS. IS IR GOING TO READ THIS. EVEN IF HE READ, IS HE GOING TO TAKE IDEAS FROM THIS THREAD. I THINK WE SHOULD NOT WASTE OUR TIME HERE.

kiru
18th August 2005, 08:05 AM
I am suggesting the best singers for VijayR's idea like RTP. For raga aalapana, let the singer take the lead, create the mood, show her creativity but Raaja can take lead in Taanam part, tani aavartanam is there, even in kalpanaswara, accompanists play a big role rt. Kalpana swarathiluley at the end together they all join and provide a grant climax. I am thinking that line. regular RTP format with IR's style, Why not??

oh man.. this is not the way IR works.. probably ARR will be amenable to this idea. I am told for ARR, singers are only singing to a bare rhythm or metronome. Then the track gets imported into the computer and ARR adds layers after layers to it. Finally you get a rich sounding song.
in contrast, IR starts with a paper, starts writing out things and you just play it and/or sing it. Raagams are just like a starting point for IR. Somebody explained one song from TIS. Every line he keeps changing an alternate note. There is mathematical precision to his compositions. Forget about singers singing with kalpana swaras etc. This is not going to happen, IMHO.

But let me tell you what I think.. IR is doing what the singers are doing ..alaap , kalpana swaras etc.. but these things are all happening in parallel in an IR composition. Even expert WCM composers are going to be stumped by his compositions. Because IR is using all the techniques in ICM , but applied in parallel. To explain more the extra notes, variations in ICM singing are happening linearly ..ie. over a period of time. But if you turn them into harmony , they are all happening at the same time. IR restricts the singers to just singing the notes ..then the fills and strings will all play these same things in parallel. In IRs songs, the composer is the ICM singer, and the ICM singer is another instrument in a WCM orchestra.

kiru
18th August 2005, 08:05 AM
I am suggesting the best singers for VijayR's idea like RTP. For raga aalapana, let the singer take the lead, create the mood, show her creativity but Raaja can take lead in Taanam part, tani aavartanam is there, even in kalpanaswara, accompanists play a big role rt. Kalpana swarathiluley at the end together they all join and provide a grant climax. I am thinking that line. regular RTP format with IR's style, Why not??

oh man.. this is not the way IR works.. probably ARR will be amenable to this idea. I am told for ARR, singers are only singing to a bare rhythm or metronome. Then the track gets imported into the computer and ARR adds layers after layers to it. Finally you get a rich sounding song.
in contrast, IR starts with a paper, starts writing out things and you just play it and/or sing it. Raagams are just like a starting point for IR. Somebody explained one song from TIS. Every line he keeps changing an alternate note. There is mathematical precision to his compositions. Forget about singers singing with kalpana swaras etc. This is not going to happen, IMHO.

But let me tell you what I think.. IR is doing what the singers are doing ..alaap , kalpana swaras etc.. but these things are all happening in parallel in an IR composition. Even expert WCM composers are going to be stumped by his compositions. Because IR is using all the techniques in ICM , but applied in parallel. To explain more the extra notes, variations in ICM singing are happening linearly ..ie. over a period of time. But if you turn them into harmony , they are all happening at the same time. IR restricts the singers to just singing the notes ..then the fills and strings will all play these same things in parallel. In IRs songs, the composer is the ICM singer, and the ICM singer is another instrument in a WCM orchestra.

baroque
18th August 2005, 10:12 AM
Kiru says,
"IR is doing what the singers are doing ..alaap , kalpana swaras etc.. but these things are all happening in parallel in an IR composition. Even expert WCM composers are going to be stumped by his compositions. Because IR is using all the techniques in ICM , but applied in parallel. To explain more the extra notes, variations in ICM singing are happening linearly ..ie. over a period of time. But if you turn them into harmony , they are all happening at the same time. IR restricts the singers to just singing the notes ..then the fills and strings will all play these same things in parallel. In IRs songs, the composer is the ICM singer, and the ICM singer is another instrument in a WCM orchestra."

Kiru, All classical music based film music has been done this way! Adhai pathi ippo yedhukku explain pannarel??

baroque
18th August 2005, 10:35 AM
Kiru, earlier VijayR is saying this ...VijayR says, 'ananth, I have thought on those lines long time back. I thought that one of the ultimate experiments in classicval crossover would be composing a full-fledged krithi(where IR can leave the rendition to a better singer)with neraval, RTP, thani avardhanam and other usual features and then using a symphonic backing during the whole song that enhances the rendition. I am not sure how it sound or will be received, but it would be worth exploring for someone like IR.So far his vocal portions have'nt been quite demanding, with emphasis being on mostly orchestration. So this would be the next ideal step for him, IMO. I dont think the so-called carnatic purists would mind as long as he doesnt render them."
I am talking about this idea as a good idea for Raaja to collaborate with big names and do the symphonic backing to enhance the redention in grand scale in IR's style. Because i too love his thulasi dhala.... HTNI.
Neenga yedhukku cinema music composingaa explain pannarel??
anyway..

vijayr
18th August 2005, 11:36 AM
njv, no one expects IR to read this thread and take note of our comments man, its just sharing of thoughts thats all :-) Think of this as a wishlist or just a fun discussion. Its like having a casual chat with your friend on what you would would want from IR, except that you are typing it down here.This is no more a waste of time than arguing about IR vs ARR in umpteen threads which we do most of the time.

Alaap, kalpana swaras etc. are unique to ICM and are not happening anywhere in parallel in WCM. Lets make that clear first.WCM is also bereft of the emotional content brought forth by the microtonal glides present in ICM.
Also, the aim is to make the singer be a bigger part of the picture than be another mere instrument in the overall picture(which is what IR has already been doing in TFM most of the time like baroque pointed out). The beauty of carnatic music is in the vocal embellishments which are difficult to notate sometimes and have to be conveyed vocally. The expression which a human voice conveys is unique and cannot be matched by any notation IR might write for hundreds of instruments.


The fun part for IR is to first compose the vocal portions fully with all the improvisations/kalpana swaras/sangathis conveyed by himself to the singer(which would be another mini-challenge) who will then adhere to what IR wants, instead of improvising on his/her own, if thats what IR prefers. He will then orchestrate the song without making any changes or diluting the main melody.This would be THE classical crossver, if it can be done. I am sure IR is capable if he puts his heart and soul into it.

jaiganes
18th August 2005, 11:37 AM
Guys, today early morning, i had a dream.
The dream was "Silapadhigaram" as a dance drama in an opera style. It has classical ICM and Hindustani vocals backed up by IR style WCM orchestration.
The WCM orchestrations are prerecorded, while ICM instrumentals are played live on the stage. The dance is peformed by Chitra Vishweshwaran and company, with Kannagi in Bharathanatyam, madhavi in Kathak(bring all the sarangs and tablas here), kovalan and other male characters in Kathakali(so Kerala musical instruments prerecorded) and other female characters in kuchipudi.
This song and dance drama in opera style is my dream project where IR - and other great exponents of Indian classical dance collaborate .
This is my suggestion to the thamizh artistic community, would be one helluva exposition of Thamizh literature and indian arts to the whole world.

jaiganes
18th August 2005, 11:42 AM
vijay wrote:

The fun part for IR is to first compose the vocal portions fully with all the improvisations/kalpana swaras/sangathis conveyed by himself to the singer(which would be another mini-challenge) who will then adhere to what IR wants, instead of improvising on his/her own, if thats what IR prefers.
Do you think that songs like "Edhilum ingu","ninnai charan adaindhaen" and the song from "Thai moogambigai" are all not done this way? I thought this is the way SPB and IR collaborated in "Konji Konji" in Veera too.

rajasaranam
18th August 2005, 02:42 PM
checking this link hope this works :?
http://rapidshare.de/files/4101437/Ilaiyaraja_Isaiyin_Thathuvamum_Azhagiyalum_Prem_Ra mesh_Interview.pdf.html

crvenky
18th August 2005, 03:01 PM
ananth222, arun, prabhudas & shankar,

Please check my yahoo groups for the BGMs of Pon Megalai,
another thriller score from the Maestro.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MaestroMagic/?yguid=78815559

crvenky
18th August 2005, 03:10 PM
Maestro's lesser-known movies like Pon Megalai, Karagattakkari and Uppu are released in VCDs in Malaysia. I got it here in the Middle East.

Shankar
18th August 2005, 03:17 PM
rajasaranam,
The site doesn't allow downloads for some reasons...Can you pls mail it to my hub-id ?

alwarpet_andavan
18th August 2005, 03:38 PM
Shankar,
You gotta select free download and wait for a few seconds, as indicated at the bottom of the page... and then click on the PDF link which subsequently comes.....

Shankar
18th August 2005, 06:11 PM
AA,
I know...i did that..but I never got the pdf link.

app_engine
18th August 2005, 08:36 PM
I'm not sure whether there is any album / filmi work with any of the ancient Thamizh ilakkiyam with totally FOLK tune / arrangements. (There may be shades of folkishness in one song of TbI, still the focus is more on WCM, IMO).

What about ThirukkuraL (or silambu) with a typical folkish setting - say each number to have one full adhikAram and changing the tune for every kuRaL , with uRumi mELam kind of interludes and completely country drums (thavil, nAyanam included)...I'm sure it won't cost much to do such work - no Hungary / U.S. stuff definitely, Chennai'yilEyE seiyyaLam...

Some would say it won't be big theeni for the yAnaippasi talent of Raja, but still it would be way different from all of his current works...and more importantly, it'll positively benefit a wide group of people, including children & youngsters (sales also that way guaranteed)...

Wish list thAnE? idhaiyum sEththukkungO ayyA:-)

vijayr
18th August 2005, 09:34 PM
"Do you think that songs like "Edhilum ingu","ninnai charan adaindhaen" and the song from "Thai moogambigai" are all not done this way?"
Jaiganes, most TFM IR songs are done that way I believe with no room for improvs by the singer.Thats why I suggested improvs done by the singer on their own, as a change, since we are talkng about a full-blown carnatic rendition here, not 4-min light classicals like Ninnai charanadaindhen.

BTW, good ideas from you and app_engine. Who knows? Even if IR isnt exactly reading these pages, somebody else connected with music could or one of us might get a chance to meet IR or someone else in future and can put forth some of these ideas to him. It has been done before, by a few DFers who have met IR and suggested re-mastering his BGMs and so on. So we might not be exactly in fantasyland here.

Silapadhikaaram - dance/opera format would be good.If IR wants to take it to Broadway he'll need to work with someone good on this.

app_engine, am not sure if Tamil folk music by itself would be enough to sustain a whole album. Maybe I am wrong and IR has enough folk songs ideas to incorporate for the whole album.
If not, He could try using folk idioms of other countries/states. Little bit of Irish folk(traces can be seen in the recent Kaattu vazhi song) or our own Mallu/Rajasthani folk songs. Make it an Indian Folkfest-representing different states. That would be an unique album. The album can be multi-lingual with Hindi/Tamil/Mallu/Bengali/other languages employed.

Of course when I threw some of the ideas out there, I didnt take commercial viability into account, which you have. One just have to hope that after TIS' success some one would come forward to sponsor all this.

app_engine
19th August 2005, 12:26 AM
vijay,
The folk music should be used as a medium to promote sanga ilakkiyam...the literary part is a must, which will be a unique concept as traditionally, ilakkiyam is always tied with classical / carnatic kind of arrangements...

It doesn't matter which genre of folk...all that matters is the `feel' and `sound' should go down to earth, to reach any pAmaran, while the words maintain their literary supremacy (narikkum, kAkkAikkum kalyANam)...to make this in a sweet, homogenous way may be a small challenge...however, may not be that big for IR...

kiru
19th August 2005, 05:08 AM
Neenga yedhukku cinema music composingaa explain pannarel??
anyway..

baroque, you misunderstood me. I am not talking about the solo violin following the main melody. I am talking about the fills and harmony layers in film music, yes. For that matter, I think TIS, is IR's film music taken to its heights. And what I am saying is the fills, harmonies are exactly similar to brighas and kalpana swaras in a carnatic music concert. The fills act like 'bridge' phrases in a concert. To me, I dont see ICM and WCM as two distinct entities. I dont think IR also sees it this way. This is the reason it is easy for him to do orchestrations. What you do over a course of singing (linearly) , he just adds it as layers to his songs. This is basically my perspective or theory. I can give some examples to this, but it would take me some amount of work. But please listen to the orchestrations in IR's songs (either filmy or even TIS), this thought might occur to you as well. I do know the gamakam or slides or microtonal variations are unique to ICM. This is not easily replicated, but I think it is being 'simulated' in IR's music by other instruments while the singer is singing the main melody.
Ofcourse, all this could be in my imagination :-)

BTW, I hate to rain in on the parade. I think, IR, would not be open to the idea of adding orchestration to a singing. His interests are more in tightly controlled, structure and symmetry. This means, you just play/sing what he writes !!!!
I have no problem with his approach because my tastes are midway between ICM and WCM and IR's approach is exactly my cup of tea. I like ICM, but am not too much in to improvisations and live concert-going. I like WCM, but I feel the melodies do not have the indian flavor. So something like TIS is very appealing to me.
IR over a period of time, has transformed himself into a full-fledged composer. I am not sure he will be interested in pure ICM compositions, but he could possi bly be. Mostly, he is operating in the WCM idiom and presenting indian ragams in orchestral framework.
I do like the idea of dance/dramas/ballet, but I want it with a WCM backing (it might sound like the muthu natramam song in TIS) . I am not particular about folk, just like IR and others, I dont see folk and carnatic distinctions. Also, some of you guys might be happy, because IR may not be interested in singing for Rama or Ravana. Even though as a kid he might have sung for Sita :-)

vijayr
19th August 2005, 09:59 AM
TIS didnt have any great exposititon of Indian raagams. Very simple filmi tunes set to symphonic backing. The vocal portions werent even as complex as some of his earlier film songs(The other day I saw a bunch of 10-year old kids singing Puttril vaazh aravam anjen in the Raj TV TIS release programme with considerable ease), but since its a devotional album that was enough.The spirit of the album was more important.
In fact according to IR, even the orchestration was simple in TIS. He said it was a soulful album, not necessarily a creative one. And Laslo Kovacz comments in the programme that the music is very simple, with the purpose being to spiritually connect to the listener.

What IR should do next is a classical album that appeals both to the intellect and soul, and which gives more weightage to the ICM portions. (I dont think TIS is classical crossver, the weightage is like almost 80% WCM and 20% ICM. Also, most of the ragas we have already seen him use it umpteen times) He need not do a pure ICM song but make the vocals more challenging(semi-classicals or tougher), choose gana ragas(which he has avoided so far)and have them rendered by good singers.Some of the great, popular, defining ragas of carnatic music havent been explored by IR yet completely.Compositions in Bhairavi, thodi, Kamboji etc.that bring out the full flavor of those scales would be a different sort of challenge for IR, and then to have them orchestrated. Not his usual film approach of breaking the tune down, simplyfying it, and filling the gaps with chords.There is no place for ICM in such an approach. I dont mind even if he does a couple of pure instrumentals in the album without any vocals, as long as he uses these raags.
The theme could be anything. It could be verses from sacred texts or ancient Tamil literature set in a Krithi-like format. When IR can handle classical passages in HTNI or NBW with violin, adding vocals should'nt be a big problem for him, unless otherwise he doesnt want to trust any other singer.I know overall it sounds like a dream, but no harm in dreaming.

app_engine, neenga solradhu IR oru vaarathula paNNIdalaam.The catch though is selecting the right text that would lend itself to a folk setting.Once that is done, rest will take about aweek. IR can do this in between 2 big projects, to make our waiting time appear shorter. (Or he can do this in place of stuff like Chidamabarathil oru appasaamy :-))

Shankar
19th August 2005, 10:57 AM
>>>>>
Or he can do this in place of stuff like Chidamabarathil oru appasaamy Smile)
<<<<<<

precisely...who wants those filmi albums from him ?

baroque
19th August 2005, 11:28 AM
[tscii:ce8c2ef61e]Kiru,
Because I love his thulasi dhala.... HTNI in which he has used violin , he can include a powerful vocal too for VijayR’s idea. Thats all I am excited about. Who knows, Raaja may be open to this idea, or he can take one step further too, by including Hindustani equivalent - a noticeable North Indian musician too! (Collaborative effort by 3 music maestros!!! IR, Carnatic,Hindustani!)[/tscii:ce8c2ef61e]

ananth222
19th August 2005, 12:00 PM
my tastes are midway between ICM and WCM and IR's approach is exactly my cup of tea

exactly my feelings kiru, thats why I have been so enchanted by "study for violin" and other tracks in HTNI. i started this thread thinking abt other pieces like that, fully composed krithis mixed with WCM. But as others posted their ideas, i thought, why not? It will surely be very good. There is a part in "Puttril vaazh" from TiS, around 7:00 mins into the song, where IR hums a small "improvised" tune between verses (in the "konila vaali anjen" paragraph). now this one was surely pre composed and pre arranged, but it is exactly the sort of thing that shows the flavor of the ICM.

i would also like people here to listen to this:
http://www.surasa.net/music/tyagaraja-archive/#v15
listen to the first krithi "tulasI daLamulachE" by d.K.Jayaraman. its fairly long (17 mins) - but towards the latter part (the "sarasiruga punnaaga..." lines starting at abt 3:00 mins and goes on for a long time) just listen to the improvisations and kalpana swaras. they are really amazing - and the prospect of that harmonized with WCM is... no words to describe it! (especially the way he has sung it in this looks very 'westen' or 'westernizable' IMO)

baroque
19th August 2005, 12:17 PM
ananth222, thanks a lot for the link! good day, vinu.