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Neels
16th July 2005, 07:00 PM
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20050725&fname=Ilaya+Raja+%28F%29&sid=1

Is the above
a) a review of the composer's work?
b) just a human interest story?
c) a passing remark on someone's personal life?
d) Or simply an attempt to kick up controversy?

Make your pick!

The article by S. Anand contains some factual inaccuracies. For e.g., it says that the English lyrics in the album are penned by GU Pope, but these were actually written by Stephen Schwartz. The first English translation of Thiruvasakam was done by the former.

kavin
16th July 2005, 09:03 PM
.......Outlook asked Ilayaraja about Bob Marley, Bob Dylan, Gaddar, his communist brother Varadarajan and even the recent Live-8 performances where music became a mode of protest. "I am beyond such garbage," was his curt reply............

If he meant that Live-8 was garbage, I can accept that. But the statement in Outlook, the way it is worded gives the impression that IR treats Marley and Dylan as garbage.

TISK
16th July 2005, 09:25 PM
That is your perspective. But to me , it clearly meant that to use such means as a 'protest' and that too using the sacred music for such purposes is 'Garbage'. But you do have a point..... But That is IIR!
YIA!

Friends, I have a passionate appeal to you all. !!
Now tht you all have been fully soaked into this music and have been enjoying it, please come out of it for a minute as we still have some unfinished agenda.
True, all our fans have now either bought or heard this divine album but it is yet to reachALL the people. One solid reason is the mismanagement with the distribution at the initial stage but we have to do our part, no matter what the odds are. When confronted with a situation that it might not have come to USA on time, TisUsa took it upon itself and with the help of all of you, now we at least made sure that it reached all the fans and music lovers on time here. But, this should reach every household and only you can help us here. Please talk to, e-mil, send a complimentary Cd, talk to your local stores and advertise it in any fitting manner you think of but please help us to get the Cd's find everyone hgere in the next fortnight or so.
This is very important to make this project meet its objective of reaching everyone. Only YOU can do it and please help us. Visit www.tis-usa.com and find out how you can help or suggest us the ways and means.
As I have been proudly saying for the last two years, only we USNRI's have made this project viable and and reachable from the start to finish and let us complete it now.
Let us not getinto any criticisms as to how it could have been done but we face now is the reality and your co-operation is highly appreciated as to how to take it further.
Thank you!
YIA!!

vijayr
16th July 2005, 11:02 PM
"Outlook asked Ilayaraja about Bob Marley, Bob Dylan, Gaddar, his communist brother Varadarajan and even the recent Live-8 performances where music became a mode of protest"

whats this supposed to mean?

Kupps
16th July 2005, 11:50 PM
Is the above
a) a review of the composer's work?
b) just a human interest story?
c) a passing remark on someone's personal life?
d) Or simply an attempt to kick up controversy?

Make your pick!

my pick is b, c and d :)

If people give me chance I can write something similar about this Anand. You don't need knowledge about anything. All you need is certain unconnected data. You don't have to bother about making it as information. Use them as spices in your attrocious curry.


tmrmrt,
Let me make one thing clear. I was in no way against or ridiculing you asking some HC WCM listeners to comment on the samples. my message was more towards the "please ignore the comments" kind of responses. In fact in my "KularLi viththai kaarai" anology, I meant to welcome these kind of comments invitation. The idea was to mention that we cannot expect a favourable, praising response to this album because it would be first of its kind those people would be listening to. However, with this thought in mind we still have to and can look forward for the comments from all quarters including HC WCM, HC ICM listeners too. I hope (and am sure) that you also had similar expectation when you requested for the comment.

TISK
17th July 2005, 12:08 AM
This Outlook Anand is well-known for his bias for the Tamils and he uses his language skills only to stir up some controversy in whatever manner possible, be it religion, castism, or politics. He is a sort of mischief-monger who thrives in inciting people . It is better to disregard this as 'Garbage' and any further comments on this will only be a waste of time.

rajasaranam
17th July 2005, 12:56 AM
I dont know whether this 'Outlook Anand' is anti-tamil or not. But we very well know IR would have uttered the 'nonsense' whatever we found in that Article. IR is no authority to say that Music should be used only for divine purposes. In Fact IR is nothing If not for 'Paavalar varadharajan'. all those 20,000+ music concerts which shaped IR in his early years were not sung in any temple. It was sung to uplift people and people's movement and were a form of protest against this societal system.
IR has got 'Fans' all over the world but he lacks the charishma of a Gaddar/Bob Dylan. Armed with a single 'Parai' and 'Salangai' Gaddar has the guts to face the atrocious social system and its threats and can make people to wage war against this system. What IR has done in 1000's of films is no equal to what gaddar has done to the movement of PWG in Andhra.
If this is Considered Garbage by IR Then no wonder he will come up with saying one day that his songs 'manitha manitha ini un vizhigal sivanthaal ulagam vidiyum' or an 'Ezhugavae padaigal ezhugavae' or a 'Poaraada daa oru vaLyenthada' too as garbage.
Music is not anybody's Wealth its a part of society and it can be used as means of protest in all means. It applies to all arts. Even religion has been made to play a part in freedom movement by 'BGThilak' to unite people against British. And here comes the 'musical genius' who says '"I am beyond such garbage,"
This said - i can list a no. of Garbages like 'vandhe matharam' , 'achamillai achamillai' etc., for IR to shun as garbage. Let him go ahead with his spiritual, selfish means to attain god and have no rebirths, and let not utter such nonsense on people's movement or using music as a form of protest as garbage.
Apparently, just being a musical genius is not enough.

baroque
17th July 2005, 02:41 AM
Friends, Now TIS-Thiruvasagam by Ilayaraaja is out, it is His moment, it is our moment, we deserve some glory time. Ilayaraaja earned it. Ilayaraaja is a musical genius, as a Ilayaraaja fan it hurts to see the above postings, I least care about the 'outlook' stories or any other story that stir up controversy.Come on lets celebrate our Raaja in this thread.

vijayr
17th July 2005, 03:25 AM
what is Anand's point at the end? What has this got to do with Bob Marley or Bob Dylan? What is IR supposed to protest against with his music? What has this got to do with TIS? Can someone explain?

kavin
17th July 2005, 02:25 PM
When I read the the article, the supposed opinion about Dylan, Marley, ... and Live-8 stood out. It was meant to be provocative and it is a deliberate attempt to raise controversy. It is a typical example of a ambiguous question with multiple items. The answer is equally ambiguous since one can't be sure which item in the question has been answered. It is then left at the mercy of the reader to make his own conclusions, which is sad.

My guess is that the answer, 'garbage' refers to the last item of the question which is about Live-8. I watched Live-8 and I thought it was garbage too and there were a lot of concerned critics who thought so too. I don't want to defend my opinion in this thread. The writer of the article has puposely left things ambiguous to provoke and it is likely that IR left it equally ambiguous. It is also very much possible that in a random suvey of all musicians, a significant proportion will refer the music by Dylan, Marley and others as garbage.

So it is important not to go overboard with ones reaction to items in an article. While one expects responsible journalism, it is also reasonable to expect a certain degree of maturity in the reader as well.

rooky
17th July 2005, 06:03 PM
Journalists always look for controversy and they are very very good in tweaking the answers.

This is a mode of promotion for their article and their magazine/newspaper.

Here again ,but for that controversial last response which the author claims to be told by ilayaraja,you won't have discussed it at all.

njv
17th July 2005, 09:51 PM
I dont know whether this 'Outlook Anand' is anti-tamil or not. But we very well know IR would have uttered the 'nonsense' whatever we found in that Article.

How do you know. If you want to know more about IR talk to people who knows him. Outlook never interviewed IR in the last 8 years. So if some fool is saying something, please dont quote IR.

Also, please read the whole article again. There is no flow in the article. Why would someone start talking about TIS and question his "birth" (either as dalit or whatever, it doesnt matter to me. If the highest human in the world is Brahmin, then IR is a Brahmin to me, if the highest human in the world is Catholic, then IR is a Catholic to me, and if the highest human in the world is a Muslim, he is a muslim to me) and eventually his opinion about other people.

Imagine, I give you 10 minutes of your time to interview one of the greatest composer in the world and lets say you are hte "most controvertial" critic that world ever had, then list the questions. I bet you wont ask anything personal but only about music.

Watch IR's speack about his brother, his respect he has for his brother and he quote "Paavalar illanna naan innikku illai, naan illainna yuvan illai, so ellam paavalar thantha pichchai". In another speack he said "enakku muraiyana sangeetham theriyaadhu, naan kaththukitta sangeetham yellam Viswanathan-Ramamoorthy paattu ketuthaan". So he I would never even read such interviews/blog.

Just because you have a free bandwidth, please dont write anything. It hurts lot of people.

vijayr
18th July 2005, 12:16 AM
I still didnt get Anand's point at the end. Kavin or rajasaranam can probably explain. What was Anand trying to drive at by mentioning Bob Marley or Dylan? without knowing this it is futile to dicuss further.

Also, I have read this guy's earlier stupid article criticizng Kamal/Rajni for the present state of films. He has some serious problems or writes just for sensationalism.

ananth222
18th July 2005, 01:37 AM
I think what IR means by "garbage" is "music becoming a mode of protest"
I don't think IR is referring to any musical personality.
He simply says he does his work for what it is, not to protest anything or be interpreted in any way other than simple beautiful music.

As for the article, its just silly sensationalist journalism. Anyway, if it encourages four people to listen to thirvasagam and end up liking it then, mission accomplished ;-)

tmrrmt
18th July 2005, 10:37 AM
There are many inconsistencies and oddities in S.Anand's article - first of all, instead of asking IR about TiS itself, he is busy writing about IR's uneasiness to talk about his origins/roots - what the hell is going on ? is this S.Anand a bl**dy minded racist ? someone should sue him for brining on print someoneelse's racial/casteist background, and that too an artist's without any relevance!

And we never know what actually transpired between the two - it is all in bits and pieces - best to ignore that useless article

Sudalai
18th July 2005, 11:06 AM
I dont know whether this 'Outlook Anand' is anti-tamil or not. But we very well know IR would have uttered the 'nonsense' whatever we found in that Article. IR is no authority to say that Music should be used only for divine purposes. In Fact IR is nothing If not for 'Paavalar varadharajan'. all those 20,000+ music concerts which shaped IR in his early years were not sung in any temple. It was sung to uplift people and people's movement and were a form of protest against this societal system.
IR has got 'Fans' all over the world but he lacks the charishma of a Gaddar/Bob Dylan. Armed with a single 'Parai' and 'Salangai' Gaddar has the guts to face the atrocious social system and its threats and can make people to wage war against this system. What IR has done in 1000's of films is no equal to what gaddar has done to the movement of PWG in Andhra.
If this is Considered Garbage by IR Then no wonder he will come up with saying one day that his songs 'manitha manitha ini un vizhigal sivanthaal ulagam vidiyum' or an 'Ezhugavae padaigal ezhugavae' or a 'Poaraada daa oru vaLyenthada' too as garbage.
Music is not anybody's Wealth its a part of society and it can be used as means of protest in all means. It applies to all arts. Even religion has been made to play a part in freedom movement by 'BGThilak' to unite people against British. And here comes the 'musical genius' who says '"I am beyond such garbage,"
This said - i can list a no. of Garbages like 'vandhe matharam' , 'achamillai achamillai' etc., for IR to shun as garbage. Let him go ahead with his spiritual, selfish means to attain god and have no rebirths, and let not utter such nonsense on people's movement or using music as a form of protest as garbage.
Apparently, just being a musical genius is not enough.

Rajasaranam,
We didnt expect this from you. :(
We are not sure if there is anything true in Anand's article.

Cinefan
18th July 2005, 12:28 PM
Rajasaranam,
I fail to understand the need for you to react so strongly about a idiotic journalist's article.Anyone who has followed Anand's articles/movie reviews in the Outlook will know that he is a pervert who takes great pleasure in mudslinging&raising controversies.Why are you giving so much importance to him?

And can you also pls keep out your personal opinions on God/PWG /religion out of this discussion.You might believe it's selfish to work towards realising God,not having rebirth etc but there are many including IR who don't think so.Why start a fight about ideologies/beliefs here.

A very disappointing post from you in a very inappopriate forum.

yeskarthi
18th July 2005, 01:09 PM
S.Anand's article in Outlook is often of the nature that is questionable . No matter what topic he touches he writes in an instigating manner. But that's his nature, God help him.

But I don't think people carry his thought, just look at flury of letters that follows after each publication of S.Anand article.

In this article Anand's intentions are not clear when asking what Illayaraja thinks of Bob marley, Bob dylan, Gaddar, Live-8, but God forbid this, Illayaraja's answer is disturbing.

After reading the article my interpretations are like this, Illayaraja terms works/intentions of Bob marley, Bob dylan and Live-8 as garbage.

If Illayaraja had really meant what's printed, then his point of view is not correct. Music can't be used only to attain God.

For me music is first for humans, then comes the God. When people use music for social cause you cannot term that to be garbage, for example Live-8 or Band Aid is not garbage, if music helps to cease the hunger of human beings then it's the music that's more divine than God. People should appreciate what Bob Geldof and Midhe Ure did for Ethiopia.

I only pray what's mentioned in Outlook is fictious. If it's not then there needs to some soul-searching to be done by Illayaraja.

tmrrmt
18th July 2005, 01:56 PM
yeskarthi and others - I repeat we never know what actually transpired between S.Anand and IR - if S.Anand was arrogant and insensitive enought to ask IR about his rural roots, he would have touched a few raw nerves and would have got a 'slap-in-the-face' kind of an answer - let us all dismiss this article

tmrrmt
18th July 2005, 01:58 PM
and going by the way, the article is written, its tone, it is my gut feeling that nothing went right at the interview - what were Bob Marley and Bob Dylan doing in an interview, which should have featured Handel, Schubert, or other Western classical masters

yeskarthi
18th July 2005, 02:54 PM
tmrrmt :

(Note: I am die hard fan of Illayaraja)

Of late journalists keep no ethics close to their hearts. So you are bound to read/view/hear all sorts of the news.

Also all journalists like Anand are not accountable to anybody, that's the crux of the issue. They should clarify and explain the coverage and encourage healthy feedback from the public.

I have been regular reader of Outlook for past 4 years and I have to say that I tag Anand's article as comical most of the time. The only platform available for us readers is the 'Letters' section. We have to raise our concerns here so things get heard.

And, again do not take me wrong in voicing my support for Marley and Dylon etc and I am not rakeing up any issues here. As I said I am not stating any things against Illayaraja and sincerely want the news to figment of Anand's imagination. When such a thing gets published in magazine which has enviable circulation all over India we can't simply ignore the issue and encapsulate ourselves from it. That was my point.


It is true that Handle, Mozart et al. should have featured in the article instead of Marley and others. But that dosen't take the steam from these guys. They are also respectable just like others. That was my point.

Tailpeice:
CNBC 18's Trend Mill telecasted on Sunday (17th July) had one or two minute info on TIO and it was sandwiched with a lot of Pop album info. Now what do we do, worry that it has been showcased as yet another pop album or feel happy that it had got atleast some window to so called 'other' guys. It is bound to happen some people wil treat TIO has yet another music album like some fusion flick, we can't help it.

Kupps
18th July 2005, 08:45 PM
After reading the article my interpretations are like this, Illayaraja terms works/intentions of Bob marley, Bob dylan and Live-8 as garbage.

If Illayaraja had really meant what's printed, then his point of view is not correct. Music can't be used only to attain God.

For me music is first for humans, then comes the God.


Could be IR meant that. I don't have any qualms. IR said his personal view that which he now believes and he was not passing any judgment that has to be followed by the rest. Even though he is a public figure and he might have answered NOT off the camera, still. He admits what he feels in his heart/head, like Jayakanthan (JK). Many in the atheistic camp also did and still are doing the same.

No path can be found true by a person until that path is fruitful to him/her. So we can find some cross-overs. EVR went to kasi/rishikesh and he was fed-up with that way of life and he joined in the atheist movement. He believed in that movement. He ridiculed the believers and he even made instigating speeches and abused the believers. He too was abused/ridiculed by the others for such speeches of him. But many of those who ridiculed EVR have reconciled to the fact that things like that co-exist (just like how EVR felt about them).

Before ridiculing IR we need to recollect that IR has been with those movement and might be he is changed now. If one is asked about one's personal view others should be ready to listen to that, appreciate it and may be even "agree to disagree".

I have seen many atheists who never have ridculed/abused belief in public. I have seen many believers who honestly believed that true atheism is also one way towards god. They had that kind of mentality. We need to have this much tolerance.

Music might be a way to attain god for some, IR might be one of them. But he did not say that music is only to attain god. If anytime he believed so or told so he would not have tuned music for films from that point onwards. And by the way the idea that 'attaining to godhood (or self-realization) will not be for humans' is itself incorrect. If self-realization is totally "selfish" then why many self-realized persons from Jesus to Gauthama Buddha, Nabi , Shankara, Ramanuja, azhwars, nayanmars, pattinaththaar et al were preaching to people. Because, they thought that by the way of such preaching they are doing human service. It is upto us to accept it and if we don't feel so we have every right to shun them as they had to preach. Selfishness never gives the virtue of preaching.

Hope we all have read the:
kalvi karayila; kaRpavar naaL sila
mella ninaikkin piNi pala
theLLithin aaraaindhamayudaya kaRpavE
neerozhiya paalun kurugiRRerindhu

Education/Knowledge is boundless; Learners life is limited
[in that life too] with lots of pains (distractions/health/routines);
[so] choose and learn the best [that suits you] like the swan separates water from milk.

So depending on our interest lets learn to leave the things that are unwanted for us, from IR's speeches too :)

Hope this helps in stopping the digression and concentrate of TiS.
If not, happy digressing :)

vijayr
18th July 2005, 09:19 PM
Kupps, good one. Personally, I did nt understand the connection between IR's origin/roots (with which Anand starts the paragraph) and the music-as-means-of-protest comment. Are these related in any way? What has IR's roots(dalit or whatever it may be) got to do with him doing music for protest?

On TIS itself, I have not been able to come out of "Pooveru konum" and hence have not been able to compose myself to write something about the album. A lot of goose pimple-inducing moments in the song. MS has written about it in dhool forum. This will probably be playing in a loop for a while.

Naaz
18th July 2005, 09:32 PM
It is sad to see that S. Anand (and his piece on IR's opus) has been turned into a pinata by all sorts, completely oblivious of the role of "context" in criticism. It is the first time I have encountered this journalist (thanks for sharing the link) and I am happy to say that I do not refract my take through the prism of his (previous) textuality (call it baggage?)
The last question in his piece seems to have ruffled some ardent feathers, leading to typical knee-jerk reactions - not so unusual in these fora.
What do Bob Marley, Bob Dylan, G8 have to do with IR's Oratorio?
Those who are familiar with the biographies and discographies of BM, BD et al, would have no problem with the question: These western (and west indian?) artistes, given their personal struggles with power and disenfranchisement, gave voice to the status (or invisibility) of the "underdog." This was their cause celebre. Voices from the Margins, whether you like it or not, are essentially a "protest" or "cry" against the oppressive grip of the status-quo. This impetus is indispensible in what can be termed as "resistance literature."
Now, I urge those of you who so easily fly off the handle, to give pause.
S. Anand delienates the literary origins of Thiruvasagam, and points to the "catholic" influence in it's translation history:"The meek shall inherit the earth." In this regard, IRs origins (his religious conversion) are integral to the question posed. The Dalits of India are the meek and oppressed, and IR's geneology, in this respect, is crucial.

Now the G8:
The G8 concerts were used as lightning rods to pry the world's blindspot to the plight, poverty and the wretched indignity of the downtrodden and forgotten people of Africa. Hence, the concerts (and not necessarily the bands or songs) were undeniably Political.

Here's how it comes together: Is IRs use of Manickavasagar's verses in a cross-genre exercise an attempt to reiterate, in spritiual terms, the christian ethos of "the meek inheriting the earth"? Is it an anthem to the "meek" (underdog) that they can transcend the man-made categories of caste, class, creed and culture through spiritual engagement? Is it a call to resist these walls and barriers of Power and Subjugation through supplications to a Higher Power that/who is above and beyond the politics of everyday human oppressions?

I think so.
And I thank S. Anand for this contextual insight.

PS: IR's Oratorio is yet to make it to the stores here. I've only heard one segment on the net. This response is exclusively about the Outlook article, and should not be conflated (or read) as a review of the entire work.

hehehewalrus
18th July 2005, 09:39 PM
my pick is b, c and d :)


Kupps, my pick is also that :D
Symphonix pathi cacaphonix enna ninaikiraar? :P

vijayr
18th July 2005, 10:48 PM
Still, the connection between TIS and music-as-a-means-of-protest is a little farfetched. When the objectives behind TIS were clearly stated at the beginning, where is the need to make such a connection? At best, its the writer's own (imaginative)interpretation/extrapolation of TIS's objectives. And IR has rightfully dismissed it.

If IR wanted to protest against this so-called oppression he wouldnt have waited till he was 63. He would have released many albums by now to do this or done through his film songs. And also there's no article I have read anywhere which states that IR was a victim himself of some sort of oppression.

uv
18th July 2005, 11:03 PM
vijayr
you are right, S Anand is known for these kind of misrepresentation , his view of world is only through a specific lens, ignore him, he is of kind of one who pretends if he knows it all. IR should be aware of these kind of people, should be careful of what he is saying.

alias
19th July 2005, 12:14 AM
The Outlook article against IR is something like the anti minority articles written by those ppl. in Indian Xpress who get sadist pleasure in talking against minorties and arousing their anger. This Anand probably belongs to same catagory. Whatever IR belongs to, he has no business in interfering in his personal matters. Ask him to review symphony and keep his mouth shut :x

njv
19th July 2005, 05:49 AM
The Outlook article against IR is something like the anti minority articles written by those ppl. in Indian Xpress who get sadist pleasure in talking against minorties and arousing their anger. This Anand probably belongs to same catagory. Whatever IR belongs to, he has no business in interfering in his personal matters. Ask him to review symphony and keep his mouth shut :x
alias, I know you are a HC ARR fan, but still supporting IR in this is a very nice gesture. Thanks a lot.

alwarpet_andavan
19th July 2005, 05:32 PM
My take

Naaz,
If you read Anand S's other articles you will find that he brings in the Dalit factor in every article of his, espousing the Dalit cause (which is a very good thing), whether the topic is the S.Indian film industry, Kamal/Rajni or a study of Russian rainfall.
When you interview a celebrity and a genius at that, you prioritize your questions, based on their importance and relevance to the situation. And as Vijayr mentioned, IR had clearly and unambiguosly stated the objective on TIS a long time back and many times at that. I found it strange why Anand S connects IR's roots to TIS.

That said, if IR indeed felt that giving voice to social struggles through music as "rubbish", i would disagree. I'm not talking about Live8, which is a band-aid effort, for a deep and ghastly injury inflicted in the first place by the imperial, crusading West.

Cinefan
19th July 2005, 06:00 PM
My take

Naaz,
If you read Anand S's other articles you will find that he brings in the Dalit factor in every article of his, espousing the Dalit cause (which is a very good thing), whether the topic is the S.Indian film industry, Kamal/Rajni or a study of Russian rainfall.


AA,
Most of us espouse a cause which we believe is good/honest/true/ whatever, but we also know where to draw the line.Anand doesn't know that&more importantly he doesn't come across as espousing a cause but only seems to spit venom-his articles during the Kanchi seer arrest,his review of movies,his article on Periyar are more than sufficient proof.

As far as this particular article is concerned,it hardly looked like an interview.An brief intro on Thiruvasagam,his own twist to IR's christian upbringing&Tamil Mayyam getting involved in the project,a fleeting reference to Shaivate history in TN&a couple of irrelevant questions with extremely curt answers by IR.Clearly looks like Anand's only intention was to use this opportunity to get his screwed up opinions printed.

Personally I don't attach any value to IR's "I am beyond such garbage"statement.Who knows, he might have made it against Mr.Anand :D

rajasaranam
19th July 2005, 06:09 PM
Alwarpet Andavan,

Anand Is just interpreting the text of Thiruvasagam in a socio political perspective and put forths such question. Thiruvasagam though largely seen as a religious text it had a political implications when it was wrote. The century it was wrote was in a turmoil abundant with shaivaits-vainavites fight and also mass massacres of jaina saints. Around this time only 'Manickavasagar' has a different larger viewpoint and writes in praise of lord shiva and also includes text like
'Vaitha nidhi pendir makkal kulam kalvi ennum
pitha ulagil pirapod irapennum
sitha vigaara kalakkam thelivitha
vithaga thevarkae sendroothaai! Kothumbi!'
-read 'pooveru konum'
Which clearly states about his worldly view and ignoring man made caste etc.,
It is under this context that 'Thiruvasagam' paves way in to 'Sithar Paadalgal' which were the most revolutionary songs of then period.
under this pretext Anand poses a question to Raja 'About using music as a form of protest' For which IR could have said 'no comments' but he replied ' iam beyond such garbage' which was why the article demeaned the whole effort of IR i suppose.

Naaz
19th July 2005, 07:32 PM
Alwarpet Andavan (gotta love the alliteration! :-)) -

I thought I'd had my say here on this topic, but since you address your reply to me, I owe you a proper response.
As I stated in my previous post, I am not familiar with S. Anand's writings, and as such, am completely clueless about his literary tropes, pet peeves, and his "dalit" badge of honour...So thanks for filling me in on the things I didn't know.

There are many constituencies here, and some more passionate (and passionately biased) than others. As evidenced by some of the posts in this thread, a discussion of IR's "dalit" origins is off-limits. While Denial is not a river in Egypt, I find the vehemence of this negation abundantly peculiar. I sense a collective shame on the part of IR's fans to broach this subject. Obviously, they believe that IR is part of the "status-quo" now, and that's the end of that. As someone summarised "review symphony or keep (his) mouth shut." How's that for succinct?

Yes, IR may have stated his objectives / motivations for the project a long time ago, but if criticism only depended on "artiste statements" then there would be no other engagement with the work. For instance, if IR had said that the reason he took on this project was his personal boredom and exhaustion with film music, then where would that leave us? A critic's job is not just to address the liminal, but also unpack the subliminal. S. Anand's final question, in my reading, was both astute and relevant. Even if you don't see the Oratorio as being "political," you have to bear in mind that the origins of the genre (Opera, minus sur-titles, sets and movement) are devoutly "Christian" (the faith IR renounced?)

What the Oratorio does (and does with elan) is blur man-made distinctions of religions and hierarchies. A profound Hindu text is merged with amazing grace into a Christian music form. How cool - and beyond human categories - is that?

This is the crux of S.Anand's question: A man of "dalit" origins gives us a work that CHALLENGES arbitrary distinctions of faith and form -
Not Religious Music, but RELIGION OF MUSIC.
All identities are subsumed, and what emerges is not Oppression (which is feature of institutionalised religion) but Liberation. Isn't that a wonderful connection to make?

On an entirely different note: If Freedom of Speech were a Right only for the people we agree with, then what we are really practising is Censorship. Oppression by any other name still is?

alias
19th July 2005, 08:29 PM
njv, No problem buddy. I am ARR fan but it does not make me anti IRR. I had always enjoyed his music in early 90s and 70-80s. My fav. song until this point of time is Andhi Mazhai from Raaja Paravai and all time fav. album is Agni Natchatiram in TFM.

abbydoss1969
19th July 2005, 09:08 PM
I think people have misunderstood S.anand article.Whatever may be his motive in raising IR's origins, he doesn't connect it with TIS at all. He is talking about it in the context of someone writing a biography of IR who discusses IR's Dalit origins and IR seems to have sued him for that.
S.Anand just wants to know why IR is comfortable with his origins and why he is not interested in using music as a protest against oppressions as have Bob Marley who used his music for selfrespect of blacks or as Dylan who has been severely anti war etc. In fact lot of western folk musicians have used their music for social messages, like Pete Seeger, Woodie Gutherie etc.
I think it is a valid question and IR's answer is arrogant, even though one doesn't know how it ties up with TIS.

app_engine
19th July 2005, 09:17 PM
1. I found this outlook article not a music review of the album, going by the tone of the heading. It's `Tandav Tenor', which has a strong flavour of discussion of a social / religious theme (though in relation to both Thiruvasagam and Raja.)

2. After praising Raja for the most part of this article (which includes a brief appreciation of the TiS album), the last two paragraphs (reproduced below) are focussing on the article's theme:

" But despite his achievements, Ilayaraja is uncomfortable with the truth of his origins. When K.A. Gunasekaran wrote Isaimozhiyum Ilayarajavum (The Language of Music and Ilayaraja) in 2002, the composer was offended by the fact that Gunasekaran had discussed his Dalit origins. Ilayaraja sued the publisher and author for defamation. He has tried ceaselessly to merge himself into all that Hinduism holds in high regard: he contributed several lakhs to the building of the 13-tier gopuram (tower) of the Srirangam temple; he is an ardent devotee of Thiruvannamalai; he had planned to start a music research centre with the aid of the now-disgraced Kanchi math. Apparently, just being a musical genius is not enough.

So why does Ilayaraja, having waltzed past many social obstacles, hate being reminded of his past? Outlook asked Ilayaraja about Bob Marley, Bob Dylan, Gaddar, his communist brother Varadarajan and even the recent Live-8 performances where music became a mode of protest. "I am beyond such garbage," was his curt reply."

Obviously, the very purpose of the article is to discuss on social issues and not music. So there's no need for us to crib about what's written...it's up to us to whether read / discuss such topics or toss...

3. There'll always be tons of literature / articles published on religion, social issues etc. much like the way they are on music / arts / cinema. Since celebrities are often not into one field alone (take the case of Raja - primarily a music composer, also writes books, publishes photographs, indulges in religious works / charity etc) it is not avoidable to refer to them even when not focussing on their main profession. This article does the same, the main focus is on religio-social issues and the current shining work of IR (as well as IR's background as a person)is dragged in. Since IR attaches so much of personal stake on this album (close to calling it `piRavippayan' and even declaring that he's getting out of reincarnation cycle), such references to his personal life / opinions etc. are understandable.

4. Equally understandable is IR's irritation when being questioned about caste system /protest against caste -boorshvA system etc. Being part of those movements once upon a time, he could have probably come to the conclusion, whether right or wrong, that they are not in the right direction. He probably got convinced that going up in the society by means of education / money / success / achievements is the key to getting rid of inequalities - or probably understood these movements do not go beyond a point as seen in communist nations - or probably understood there's someone supreme above - or probably understood he needed a different vEsham for success in his field chosen - or probably influenced by wife / friends to become religious, whatever it may be, he has the free will to make his choice. Like all of us, he also has freedom to make decisions, choices in life.

5. Considering his musical achievements (and the possibility of getting more creative gems from him in the future), it'll be kindness on the part of others not to worry much about his ideologies of the past & present.

6. Having read about Raja for close to 3 decades (apart from listening to his music), I can reasonably say that he is not the kind to forget those who did good things to him in the past...sei nandRikku mukkiyathuvam kodukkinRa AL endRE ninaikkiREn...

vijayr
19th July 2005, 10:38 PM
" I think it is a valid question and IR's answer is arrogant, even though one doesn't know how it ties up with TIS.
"

The tie with TIS is far-fetched. If Anand wanted he could have written a separate article on IR and his origins/roots, instead of starting to write on a musical achievment and ending it on a different note. The timing of this article is wrong. He could have waited atleast a month or two to write this. Nothing would have changed. Its like as if he couldnt bring himself to appreciate whole-heartedly what IR has done and had to stoke up a controversial (non)issue. He seems to be a party-pooper. Right after Chandramukhi/ME was released and was doing well he came up with his "critics..rascals" article criticizing Kamal/Rajni for the current state of Tamil cinema. Right after Sachin scores a century would you write an article on how he has never been a great match winner?


Till I read this article I have never cared to remember much about what IR's origins were or what religious conversions he did. And contrary to what was written earlier, I dont think any of IR's true fans give a damn either, nor are they ashamed of his roots. If anything, they are proud that a guy from such an economic/social background has managed to achieve so much on just sheer hard work and in that aspect they like to identify with him. Thats one of the reasons why IR probably enjoys a cult following in TN, especially amongst the working class. Even if IR himself is bothered about his roots, his fans are'nt.

alias
20th July 2005, 12:30 AM
Interesting analysis app_eng, I found that most people who are on the top of fame, their past gets dragged and it is embrassing for most of these people to answer back. I think the same thing happen to IR. If he does not want to discuss his past, it is upto him but the media wants something spicy out of their personal life does not drop the topic.

I know for ARR, most of his interviews start with the paragraph "Dilip Got converted to Islam and how his entire family took to Islam". I dont know how does it matter to the interviewer which God does he pray or which temple does he go. I just read an article in cinesouth where it says Music Maestro prays to God and in the article it says he went to pray God Raula Shariff in Nagoor. This is total irrelevant. Either the report has no idea about the religion or he is wantedly imposing his own theory behind what ARR did there.

r_kk
20th July 2005, 09:06 AM
[tscii:4651b32ddb]After reading this thread, I had gone through the mentioned article in Outlook magazine and felt the major shock and pain. I request all IR’s sincere fans to send letters to outlook magazine and IR and get it clarified what they really meant it in that article. Considering IR’s early involvement with people’s movements (along with his brother Paavalar), I hope that he might not have really meant the usage of music for the uplift of suppressed people as “Garbage”.

Till yesterday, I had requested some of my friends, who are visiting Chennai, to get a “Thiruvaasakam” CD, even though I am personally against religious beliefs. If IR really meant the effort of Gaddar and Live-8 as “Garbage”, then I have no option except requesting my friends not to buy or throwing that CD to Garbage, if it is already bought. Here people may claim that an artist need not be social minded and art need not carry/express any social message/goal of elevating people. It might be true, but for the suppressed people, the pleasure brought by such art may be a small piece of high quality sweet to their empty stomach or getting a “silk tie” to the wear along with their “Kovanams”.

I firmly believe IR as a genius and one of the great music composers of our times. His knowledge, effort to achieve this level, his ability to bring western and even Karantic music to the reach of common people and rural music to the cosmopolitan societies are certainly great. But whether he is a good humanitarian, the “outlook” article by S. Anand had brought the basic doubt now.

Dear IR fans, please understand the difference between IR and Gaddar. It is similar to comparing “Vaali” with “Bharathi”. Both are genius but the feelings/mottos behind their works are different.

Gaddar is a people’s poet who uses people’s music (parai) to fight against suppression, lives among such people, devoted all his life (with bullet wounds in his body) for the fight against major social evils. How a music composer who comfortably sitting in AC hall with big group of highly paid foreign musicians, sophisticated equipments and composing some music on mythical belief system, which indirectly exploits the suppressed people, can call simple people’s poet sincere effort as Garbage?

How a person who had recently donated diamonds worth of lakhs and planning to donate “Giridam” worth of crores to a temple, which he assumes as the place brought fortunes to his life, can call the persons who are trying to bring world attentions to waive huge economical burden and bring relief to the sufferings of people of South Africa, sincere efforts as Garbage?

IR might have his own beliefs and he has the full right to spend his time/energy/earning as per his own interest/understanding. But he doesn’t have any rights to make a comment on other’s sincere efforts for the uplift of suppressed people, as “Garbage”.

In this discussion, I fully support the views of Rajasaranam. As I know from his earlier posts he uses IR music as “Thalatu” for his new born kid, like me. I think he also might have felt the pain of writing some thing against IR, like others here, including me.
[/tscii:4651b32ddb]

arun
20th July 2005, 10:41 AM
r_kk,

You will only complicate things by dissecting the personal ideas of great people.

William Shockley, considered the father of Transistors was a brilliant physicist. Modern electronics would not be the way it is without Shockley's crucial ideas and inventions.

But apart from Physics, he was a crazy man with crazy ideologies. He had a strong opinion that all non-caucasians were intellectually inferior. Not stopping there, he wanted all people with IQ lesser than 100 and Blacks to be sterilized. He was never shy of letting the world know about his crazy ideas.

You want to throw IR's CD into garbage, because you are not comfortable with his ideas. By the same token are you willing to throw your Computer, Radio and TV into garbage because they all contain transistors, the brainchild of Shockley?

r_kk
20th July 2005, 11:48 AM
r_kk,

You will only complicate things by dissecting the personal ideas of great people.

.....By the same token are you willing to throw your Computer, Radio and TV into garbage because they all contain transistors, the brainchild of Shockley?

Hi arun,
I can write a detail reply about what I would have done as a token of resistance, if I had lived during the same period of Shockley and how this situation differs from Shockley case etc, but it will further complicate things.

Let me wait till I come to know firmly what IR really meant, before making any further comments.

Cinefan
20th July 2005, 12:36 PM
Let me wait till I come to know firmly what IR really meant, before making any further comments.

You will never come to know.IR is not the kind who will give clarifications&Anand will do his best to rake a controversy.

Either you take that answer literally,get worked up&throw all of IR's works to garbage or you give a damn about that comment and enjoy the music.Personally I would advise you to do the second.I have been following Anand for quite some time now&believe he is a very prejudiced/venom spitting person who doesn't qualify to be a good journalist.

Shankar
20th July 2005, 03:03 PM
>>I have no option except requesting my friends not to buy or throwing that CD to Garbage<<

you might have a tough time doing it...Anyone with a good ear for music won't dump it :-)

r_kk
20th July 2005, 03:12 PM
you might have a tough time doing it...Anyone with a good ear for music won't dump it :-)

Yah... It will be really painful decission to be taken by brain bypassing the wish of heart. I am really not able to digest the single word, which was said to be came from IR mouth. I also really don't want to hear from IR that he really mean it (atleast not before hearing his Thiruvaasgam CD one time!!!)

MADDY
20th July 2005, 03:28 PM
ohhooooo wat happened???? Outlook was so IR-centric that they called ARRahman a useless MD once upon a time.....now wat happened to them........they started to show it on IR??

did u guys know there is a gr8 author in US called "Chomskey'....he described Media as the biggest problem next to terrorism.....now do u understand y????? :D

alwarpet_andavan
20th July 2005, 03:36 PM
ohhooooo wat happened???? Outlook was so IR-centric that they called ARRahman a useless MD once upon a time.....now wat happened to them........they started to show it on IR??

did u guys know there is a gr8 author in US called "Chomskey'....he described Media as the biggest problem next to terrorism.....now do u understand y????? :D

Noam Chomsky, one of the best minds of this century....
http://www.chomsky.info/
http://blog.zmag.org/bloggers/?blogger=chomsky

Sorry for the advert

tmrrmt
20th July 2005, 03:51 PM
Noam Chomsky - best mind with a tinge of red perhaps ?!! --)

alwarpet_andavan
20th July 2005, 04:48 PM
Noam Chomsky - best mind with a tinge of red perhaps ?!! --)
tmrrmt,
Chomsky is considered as an excellent linguist with many groundbreaking theories to his credit. Also, if you read his works, you will find little rhetoric and more facts obtained as a result of pain-staking research. the best part is he urges his readers not to believe him or his words at face value but to check out for themselves either by verifying the sources he quotes from or by using plain common sense and prudence in judgement.

And, some facts "capitalists" have to reconcile with

1. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to "capitalism","globalisation" as we know it (not as it ought to be) is NOT a communist
2. Chomsky is not a communist and in fact, he has gone on record many times saying that he doesn't subscribe to communism, per se. He is a "libertarian anarchist" and that is different from communism.
3. A lot of people (in fact most) confuse totalitarianism and dictatorship (like Stalin and the Bolshevik totalitarians) with communism.
4. People never get tired of citing examples to prove the "disentegration" of communist countries. Pray tell me, is there any single factor which has been more divisive and destructive, causing countless deaths and fights than Religion? By your token, then Religion should be THE NUMERO EVIL and not communism.

Disclaimer: I'm not a commie :)

Well, how far have i wandered from the topic! :)

rajasaranam
20th July 2005, 05:49 PM
welcome r_kk :)

tmrrmt,
Is RED neway wrong?!!

Naaz,
Your views over the issue is what iam podering upon. though we have read the text of Anand in different ways. the basic question is still hanging on air....what has IR to say about it?!!
'Iam beyond such garbage' is what have spurred this moment of truth for people like you and me.

Look at this statement made by IR a few weeks back in the prelaunch function of 'Thiruvasagam'
"Western classical music is participative. Look at the number of people who are involved in a symphony. Our traditional music is lonely"
This aspect of participative music has been identified by revolutionaries all over the world. The music which Drove people towards Revolution in China and Russia were borrowed from WCM.
When IR composed 'Manitha Manitha' it was seen as an novel attempt and people said ' IR was the first one to Compose a Revolutionary song in WCM in Indian film industry'. But WCM fused with native music had been the way of comrades All over the world.
look at some of the statements made by him at different times
'If carnatic music is the only music then even dog's barking is music'
'Music is for people, what good is an artisan who can make sculptures but doesnt know to make a grinding stone'
Though we have seen IR breaking all rules and barriers of music and creating a dictinct style of his own. he is in some way not comfortable to speak about them in public. some times it comes out of his own mouth unknowingly like the statements ive quoted above.
My gut feeling is Though IR is a revolutionary in the inner most core he somehow manages to keep off from that bare truth and wants to lead a comfortable living without the inner RED disturbing him.
And we need to free him from his self made prison and make him a real people's artist before he is engulfed by the other side :) . Anand's-outlook article/KAGunasekaran's-isaimozhiyum ilaiyaraaajavum/Paamaran's-seiyvaaya raasaiah are attempts in this direction only is what i strongly believe.
PS: Revolutionary need not mean he should hold a red flag and sing for people. his musical language is itself revolutionary in aspect and it is a form of protest against the set norms and rules. And if he holds a red flag and marches along the people of 'Pannaipuram' who are being treated as untouchables till date, who are denied the right to have Tea from the same glass as upper castes[This refers to dual glass system which is prevalent in and around pannaipuram, the dalits are given coconut shells to have tea with in the tea shops over there] then we will be all the more happy :) But.... he calls this is as garbage hmmm...

alwarpet_andavan
20th July 2005, 06:21 PM
welcome r_kk :)
tmrrmt,
Is RED neway wrong?!!

Rajasaranam,
Idathaan naan ketten. Unfortunately, its an almost universal assumption, nay truth/axiom/fact that RED is EVIL. Most of the people who say this don't care to be balanced enough to at least look at the other side before pouncing on the conclusion. If you talk about the oppressed, dalits or the working class, you are a EVIL. you are RED. Period. You're not supposed to do that, never mind that we are in a democracy and the "capitalists" are all for free speech and open mindsets!
Mind you, i'm not saying RED is good or i myself am a red. All i'm saying is "capitalism" as we know it isnt all roses either. It stinks just as bad as communism does/did. Its just so irritating to hear people say "Yeah, he's all good (or) the movie is good, but he/its a RED" in the same tone as "yeah, but he's a MURDERER!".

alwarpet_andavan
20th July 2005, 06:25 PM
Just one more thing.....
The Reddish comments i made don't change the following...

1) Anand S is unfit to be a journalist. Speaking for the Dalits is a good thing, but to twist every story/article he does with a Dalit angle is not acceptable. For example, if he is asked to interview Sachin Tendulkar i won't be surprised if he titles the piece "Sachin is a Dalit-hating Brahmin"
2) About IR's comments, i don't know whether he said it or not. If he really said and meant it, i disagree with IR.

njv
20th July 2005, 08:26 PM
Adadadadaaa.. inga enna nadakkuthu. Neenga enna pesareenganne puriyala. Ada rama. Evano oru paithiyam ollarnatha kettu neenga ellaam paithiyam aagaatheenga.

abbydoss1969
20th July 2005, 08:29 PM
Just one more thing.....
The Reddish comments i made don't change the following...

1) Anand S is unfit to be a journalist. Speaking for the Dalits is a good thing, but to twist every story/article he does with a Dalit angle is not acceptable. For example, if he is asked to interview Sachin Tendulkar i won't be surprised if he titles the piece "Sachin is a Dalit-hating Brahmin"
2) About IR's comments, i don't know whether he said it or not. If he really said and meant it, i disagree with IR.
Well, we don't know if IR said anything or not, but there is one solid bit of action he has taken to sue someone for writing about his background in what I assume is largely favourable biography about his music.why did he do it?

hehehewalrus
20th July 2005, 09:06 PM
Noam Chomsky is one of the unquestioned and outstanding geniuses of this century spreading his excellence in multifarious fields - CSE guys will remember Chomsky Normal Form in Computation Theory :D ["According to the Arts and Humanities Citation Index, between 1980 and 1992 Chomsky was cited as a source more often than any living scholar, and the eighth most cited source overall" - Wikipedia] Like most american geniuses Chomsky has Jewish roots. Calling him commie does not take away anything from his credentials.

My 2 cents on this issue - I think interpretations of Anand have been overboard.

Firstly, S. Anand as such is a pretty junk writer and should consider himself lucky to have such a big readership!

Secondly, the article itself wasnt a big treatise - just a random 10-15 line article with some references thrown here and there. The connection he makes between art and geneology is very thin. Definitely he's a jack-of-all-trades writer whose grasp of music is poor therefore he pulls in sociology to fill the gap. If a knowledgeable critic like Gowri Ramnarayan had written those points, there is some basis in analysing it.

Thirdly, as Naaz rightly said, Anand was viewing the IR's work from a particular perspective - he merely asks the question whether IR's art is an expression of social thought.

Personally speaking, I would say that what Anand exhibited was purely a predominantly Indian trait to expect our idols to be miracle-workers. For instance, a Rajini as CM, an Abul Kalaam as President, and now IR as a Crusader of the Oppressed. It's high time we leave the stars to have a life and choice of their own. A Michael Jordan might choose to be an inspiration to ghetto kids while a Michael Jackson might prefer to bleach his skin and enjoy his wealth all by himself - its purely their choice. We have absolutely no rights to sit on an armchair and dictate what kind of contribution our icons should make to society - for that matter, software engineers are one of the richest segments of society but how many of them enroll in NSS and the like and do social-service? If a guy wants to, let him do so without criticising those who want to make use of their time or resources in different ways.

Interestingly, about a year back, Outlook did have an article on Caste in Indian Cricket - not sure if the author was Anand - As far as Bombay Cricket mentality goes, caste doesnt exist. Alwarpet andavan's fear wont materialise as Sachin's deep friendship with Vinod Kambli would prove.

jaiganes
20th July 2005, 09:29 PM
folks!
interesting dissection of IR's roots and got to know a wealth of info from all. Though what i am abt to post is not gonna contribute much to this thread (hardly it has done anywhere else), still i am gonna go ahead and do it. K.A.Gunasekaran is the professor on folk arts of thamizh nadu? Then IR and he are great pals. If i am correct, he is the person who plays the role of a street play artist in the movie "Dhevadhai" . He has sung a couple of such songs for IR.

app_engine
20th July 2005, 10:04 PM
http://216.65.197.170/kumudam/200705/pg4.php

interesting article (by cartoonist Madhan)

Shankar
21st July 2005, 11:31 AM
jaiganes,
yes..he's the one who sing "aNdam kidukiduNga..." in the vArAnE song in devadhi

tmrrmt
21st July 2005, 11:41 AM
rajasaranam and alwarpet_andavan : I only suggested that Noam Chomsky has a 'tinge of RED' in him - it was neither critical of his chosen ideology (whatever it is), nor dismissive of his genius

And as for RED being good or bad, it is an issue which cannot be discussed in this thread - suffice it to say that while theoretically RED is perfect and fine, when it comes to implementing it, humans have proven to fail over and over again

tmrrmt
21st July 2005, 11:43 AM
rajasaranam and alwarpet_andavan : I only suggested that Noam Chomsky has a 'tinge of RED' in him - it was neither critical of his chosen ideology (whatever it is), nor dismissive of his genius

And as for RED being good or bad, it is an issue which cannot be discussed in this thread - suffice it to say that while theoretically RED is perfect and fine, when it comes to implementing it, humans have proven to fail over and over again, because, homo sapiens per se, are incapable of getting over their inherent needs for power, control over others, manipulate people's lives - 200 or 2000 years down the line, when and if this species does exist, the status quo will remain - a perfectly egalitarian world will not materialise so far as we human beings inherit the same

alwarpet_andavan
21st July 2005, 11:50 AM
Alwarpet andavan's fear wont materialise as Sachin's deep friendship with Vinod Kambli would prove.
hehe,
I don't think you got me right. I said in a sarcastic way that Anand would find cause to fix the anti-Dalit label even on someone like Sachin. In fact, that's what he's been doing in all his articles. You know what, I read somewhere in a blog that this freak Anand is a contributor in dalitistan.org (though i haven't found any of his articles there yet). That site has an article which says "SRT is the highest earning Indian sportsman. He's a Brahmin. And Brahmins monopolize India" or some BS like that.

alwarpet_andavan
21st July 2005, 11:55 AM
And as for RED being good or bad, it is an issue which cannot be discussed in this thread - suffice it to say that while theoretically RED is perfect and fine, when it comes to implementing it, humans have proven to fail over and over again, because, homo sapiens per se, are incapable of getting over their inherent needs for power, control over others, manipulate people's lives - 200 or 2000 years down the line, when and if this species does exist, the status quo will remain - a perfectly egalitarian world will not materialise so far as we human beings inherit the same
1. Religion's record is worse than communism in this regard and history is proof enough, you don't have to take my word.

2. Ever read about the Native American civilization? Long before words like "democracy" and "freedom" came into vogue, these guys were living life like that. They didn't have a concept of property or ownership.

You might want to read "A people's history of America" - Howard Zinn
and also the works of William James Sidis

tmrrmt
21st July 2005, 12:29 PM
alwarpet_andavan - read American history and all that - I suggest you read this book as well: "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond - a stunning global account of the rise of civilization that is also a stunning refutation of ideas of human development based on race.

Having said all this and that, what manking needs today is not mindless communism, but COMPASSION - perhaps, the one quality that human beings are endowed with, which other species do not have, is to feel compassionate - but, compassion takes a backseat in the hustle-bustle of a world where power rules the roost

and the sands of time cannot be shifted backwards

tmrrmt
21st July 2005, 12:31 PM
And yes, religion as it is prevalent today, as it took the ritualistic form eons ago has always been an instrument of power - agreed - have not read much about the origin of religion

alwarpet_andavan
21st July 2005, 12:42 PM
Yes, agree that compassion is needed but also neither will "mindless" capitalism help :)
And thanks for referring that book, will try to get a copy.
The sands of time can't be shifted but we can learn from history

tmrrmt
21st July 2005, 03:25 PM
btw, did you guys know that the last major meeting of the Indian Communist Politburo was sponsored by capitalist
Pepsi ?!

alwarpet_andavan
21st July 2005, 03:32 PM
btw, did you guys know that the last major meeting of the Indian Communist Politburo was sponsored by capitalist
Pepsi ?!
Nope!!!
When i see alliances like BJP-DMK and a Congress "Defence pact with U.S", i don't find it surprising :)

BTW, this reminds me of a scene in Anbe Sivam:
Kamal and his comerades are discussing about sponsorship for when one of them says "Venumna Pepsi Coke kitta kekkalama?". Seems its come true!

Shankar
21st July 2005, 03:38 PM
alwarpet_andavan/rajasaranam,
I don't have anything against RED, but what I have always wondered is, if it were a valid theory, it should have a success story somewhere...In most of the RED countries, success seemed a reality, but only for a small period of time...It never had a sustained success rate anywhere. If you read the history books, these success stories are minor aberrations.

Throughout the history of Humar race, the inherent nature of the man has always been to subjucate or be subjugated. Theories such as this which sound very perfect and rosy in theory have never been able to make it big due to this fact.

All RED has acheived so far is that it has distributed poverty. Nothing more.

Having been in kerala, I know what goes on in RED camps...and how things happen there.

I'm not sure, if you guys have been to communist/socialist meetings or making these statements based on the books you've read.

alwarpet_andavan
21st July 2005, 03:55 PM
Shankar,
Firstly i'll reiterate some points i've already made...
1. I'm not a RED/commie
2. Yes, i base my statements on books/materials i've read. In that way, you might call me an aravekkadu
3. Dictatorship != RED (Dictatorship/Totalitarianism is not Communism)
4. If you call socialism RED, then Venezuela is a classic example of a country succeeding (or beginning to succeed) inspite of repeated U.S (capitalist) attempts to subvert democracy because of uncle Sam's thirst for oil. Cuba has been defiant against incessant U.S malpractices and its holding its own. What about China, eh?
5.

Throughout the history of Humar race, the inherent nature of the man has always been to subjucate or be subjugated

Not correct. Read my previous statements about how Native American tribes lived. What more, there might be many more tribes today where your statement doesn't hold good.
Moreover, if you believe in your above statement, then you should not believe in Religion, otherwise you are contradicting yourself. How come Religion never implements ANY of its "rosy theories"?
6. About distribution of poverty: I'm not saying capitalism or communism per se, are evil. All i'm saying is there is no black and white in this. Scandinavian countries where there is good public spending have very good per capita incomes and economic and social indicators. I know they're not communist but my point is the more wealth is ebing concentrated in fewer hands in the capitalistic countries, which is not ideal either. Why single out communism ALONE as evil?

Bottom line: Maybe i don't have real experience in these matters. that said, i know this: Apply the same standards to both. I've seen a lot of people complaining about hypocrites in the communist parties in India. do you mean to say the other party members are all angels? By far, they are the most consistent with their statements. you can cite instances disproving this, but its obvious that for every instance you cite, there may be 10 instances in your camp. Everyone knows which side of our political spectrum is more dirty.

tmrrmt
21st July 2005, 04:07 PM
Strange as it may sound, in the two big states in India, Kerala and West Bengal, where communism has held centrestage, people have ran away/running away in search of capitalist jobs elsewhere - much of the money in Kerala comes from the Gulf and Bengalis represent a whopping majority of emmigrants seeking greener pastures - in both the states, people preach communism to others, lament about the same, but when it comes to their own needs, are the first ones to covet capitalist jobs/oppurtunities! in other words, they have a capitalish mindset while showing off as communists!

not just this, Jyoti Basu's sons roll in cash, his family owns a huge mansion in the UK, while he preaches commie principles to everyone here

noone is arguing that others are angels - we are strictly speaking about the inefficacy of an ideology, which saw 1000s dying in Soviet Russia due to hunger, 100s of scientists, who could not buy daily bread for their families
and so on

but we are digressing big time and let us not take this any further

alwarpet_andavan
21st July 2005, 04:14 PM
tmrrmt,
For one last time, you conveniently choose to ignore my question on Religion.

alwarpet_andavan
21st July 2005, 04:17 PM
Godmen, preachers and everybody preach Religion, love, God is one and all kinds of hogwash and yet get involved in crimes (not talking about the Kanchi case as its still being investigated).
Why do people kill in the name of Religion? If Krishna or Jesus or Allah preach only love, why do followers of the "rosy idealogy" run out to murder and plunder (similar to Keralites running to Gulf)?
Its caused more destruction than the Communism of Russia (you still call it communism!), China, Cuba, N.Korea, Kerala and W.Bengal put together........

alwarpet_andavan
21st July 2005, 04:50 PM
noone is arguing that others are angels - we are strictly speaking about the inefficacy of an ideology, which saw 1000s dying in Soviet Russia due to hunger, 100s of scientists, who could not buy daily bread for their families
and so on

Remember A.P, Orissa, Maharashtra and the farmers' suicides??
And what about Bihar, eh?

tmrrmt
21st July 2005, 04:53 PM
alwarpet_andavan - you are mixing up two entirely different things - I am giving strong living examples in Kerala and WB to showcase the failure of communism as an ideology - religion is not an ideology, it is left to individuals to interpret it in whichever way they feel like - whereas communism as an ideology has a definite structure to it, which has failed

Shankar
21st July 2005, 05:00 PM
>>
Moreover, if you believe in your above statement, then you should not believe in Religion, otherwise you are contradicting yourself. How come Religion never implements ANY of its "rosy theories"?
<<

Ok, now we digress to another discussion...Who said I believe in religion...There's a subtle difference between (those who've realized the difference would say there's a world of difference!) the terms religion and spirituality...I am (or more humbly , aspire to be ) a spiritual person. I take things from all religions which makes me a better human being.

having said that, i would judge a system or theory based on how it improved the lives of human being...I have never seen communism in its purest form has done good to mankind...I go by the results and I am yet to see one defending communism.

Purely by statistics (this is *JUST* for the argument's sake) countries which aren't communists have done well...These handwaving theorist don't provide bread to the ones starving...its ultimately the so called 'capitalists' who make their ends meet.

You quote cuba and china as the examples...Cuba and china are what they are not because of communism...its because of what communism tried to get rid of ! Think about Fidel and Mao Tse-tung (mao zedong)...it was their Iron fist which changed their country,...not the communist manifesto.

tmrrmt
21st July 2005, 05:02 PM
And failed massively - when something happens in Bihar,AP, Orissa or Maharashtra, you and I come to know of it - when something negative (heard of the Midnapore slayings in WB, it came out long after the incident and even then the WB govt tried to underplay) happens in a communist state, everything is done to cover it up, not to cover a person/persons' fault/guilt, but to prop up communism as a system that can never fail

Shankar
21st July 2005, 05:02 PM
AA,
you are mixing two different things...A theory called communism and belief called religion cannot be compared. You are restricting yourself to the parties (BJP & communists) i guess :-)

Shankar
21st July 2005, 05:04 PM
>>
you are mixing up two entirely different things - I am giving strong living examples in Kerala and WB to showcase the failure of communism as an ideology - religion is not an ideology,
<<

I didn't read madhan's post...precisely the same point i was arriving at.

alwarpet_andavan
21st July 2005, 05:11 PM
Idharkku mudivu inge kaana iyaladhu.
You continue to look at "your" facts and i'll continue to look at "mine"....... :)
I'm putting this to rest.....

Kupps
21st July 2005, 08:53 PM
Appa enakku kaadhu kizhiyudhu.

Me too give my two cents for further fumes.

I am very clear in what I am saying here. I am against the red. In same way, against the religious fundamentalism and the captalism. I don't have to sugar coat (poosi mozhigi-fy) my thinking in this regard.

So this turns out to be that, I blame everyone else, so many people would brand me as a hardcare communist (coz i blame everyother like the hardcore communist ideologist). But remember I said I am against the RED, too. Circular reference, isn't it :).

I cannot help if I am branded as captalist if i say something against communists and viceversa.

oor makkaLukkaaga sindhiththu uzhaikkanummunna adhukku communist-aa irukkanummunnu avasiyam illa (even in thinking). adhE maadhiri paNaththa paththi naan ninakkanum appadeenna adhukku naan captalist-aa maarittEnnu avasiyamum illa. naan saamiya kumbadarEn, madha vishayangaLa virumbarEn appadeenna udanE naan madha adippadai vaadhiyaa thaan irukkanumunnu avasiyam illa.

enna pOruththa varai religious fundamentalism, communism, capitalism are three different fundamentalist religions at three corners of a prism (one religion is in the name of god and rest not in the name of god). i am somewhere circling near the center. If you are in one corner, when i am critical of some idea of you, you might think me that i am in the other corner of the prism. i cannot help it, its not my fault. that is what i am.

but i can appreciate certain good things in all the three, because of my proximity to them. at the same time i also see that, being in a corner one person fumes against the other corner person and even those not in the corner also as enemy is what is happening here.

world, people, society, priorities, likes, dislikes cannot always be classified in terms of pure black and pure white. infact most of them range from cream to dark brown/grey. only a few are in the extreme.

Kuzhappudhaa? illainna indha post kupps kitta irundhu varaadhE.

kuzhappalayaa, appadeenna neenga IR udaya comment-a appreciate paNNa mudiyummunnu nambarEn (even if he has said it and meant in the same way as we all interpret that single line). adhukkaaga neenga IR comment-a appreciate paNNa mudiyanummunna naan kuzhappinadha kuzhambaama purinjikittaa thaan nadakkumunnu vaadham paNNa maatEN :)

app_engine
21st July 2005, 10:00 PM
"enna pOruththa varai religious fundamentalism, communism, capitalism are three different fundamentalist religions at three corners of a prism (one religion is in the name of god and rest not in the name of god)."

Kupps, mooNu kuzhappam illAdha kELvikaL:

1. Religious fundamentalism'nA enna?
2. Communism'nA enna?
3. Capitalism'nA enna?
Can you please define these three...(adhAvadhu what defines your `corners of the prism')

njv
21st July 2005, 10:46 PM
"enna pOruththa varai religious fundamentalism, communism, capitalism are three different fundamentalist religions at three corners of a prism (one religion is in the name of god and rest not in the name of god)."

Kupps, mooNu kuzhappam illAdha kELvikaL:

1. Religious fundamentalism'nA enna?
2. Communism'nA enna?
3. Capitalism'nA enna?
Can you please define these three...(adhAvadhu what defines your `corners of the prism')

1. Religious fundamentalism'nA enna?
Taliban
2. Communism'nA enna?
China
3. Capitalism'nA enna?
America

The commonality between them is "greed".

S Ananad achieved more than what he wanted by blabbering something. Now, can we please stop talking about this.

Kupps
22nd July 2005, 02:34 AM
njv

thanks for giving examples on my behalf.

however, do u think china stands for communism today?. ippa adhu kaaterumai thOl pOrthiya kaattu paNNi (i mean actually it is captalist country in the name of communism).

The commanality between them is "total intolerance towards the others".

app_engine
22nd July 2005, 03:09 AM
njv, Kupps - nAn definition kEttEn sir...examples alla...

If you say america = capitalism, then what will you say about UAW? What'll you say about Chicago's May day...

Similarly, as per Kupps, china != communism.

Before you jump into examples (which may not fit 100% the definition), please define.

njv'in examples vachu pAthA adhungaLum Kupps mAdhiri prism naduvil endRu Agi vidum:-)

Kupps
22nd July 2005, 03:27 AM
definition ellaam kudukku theriyala saar.

my view about capitalism and communism are those that are wide prevailing that includes the fair knowledge of advantages of those "isms" claimed by them and "evil" or dis-advantages claimed by their opponent "isms".

definition ennaala kudukka mudiyaadhadhu naala, oru vELai neenga enakku capitalism-naa enna, communism-nna enna-nnu theriyalannu ninaichaa naan solluradhukku onnum illa.

app_engine
22nd July 2005, 03:55 AM
Kupps, NOM - konjam clarity iruppadhu nalladhu enbadhAl thAn appadi sonnEn...

Your earlier comment "I am very clear in what I am saying here. I am against the red. In same way, against the religious fundamentalism and the captalism." was quite sweeping IMHO.

When you're so clear in your views against `SOMETHING', I feel that `SOMETHING' has to be reasonably clearly defined -Otherwise, you may even end up being against 'good things'...or what you equate (exemplify) with that `SOMETHING'
could really be unrelated things, people, places...

Sorry'nga, romba nALA electronics, computers, hardware, software'la iruppadhAl "#define" meedhu enakku konjam mOham koodudhal, illAtti results sariyA irukkAdhu enbadhAl:-)

alias
22nd July 2005, 03:59 AM
"enna pOruththa varai religious fundamentalism, communism, capitalism are three different fundamentalist religions at three corners of a prism (one religion is in the name of god and rest not in the name of god)."

Kupps, mooNu kuzhappam illAdha kELvikaL:

1. Religious fundamentalism'nA enna?
2. Communism'nA enna?
3. Capitalism'nA enna?
Can you please define these three...(adhAvadhu what defines your `corners of the prism')

1. Religious fundamentalism'nA enna?
Taliban
2. Communism'nA enna?
China
3. Capitalism'nA enna?
America

The commonality between them is "greed".

S Ananad achieved more than what he wanted by blabbering something. Now, can we please stop talking about this.

Since Taliban is gone, they will be now replaced by VHP (who think they are still ruling India) :-) And the common btw these ppl. is Intolerant towards others and over doing things.

hehehewalrus
22nd July 2005, 04:03 AM
alwarpetji,
2 contradictions in ur points. Firstly you denounced religion as responsible for starting maximum number of conflicts, genocides etc. I am sure you wont be unaware of the magnitude of crimes committed behind the Iron Curtains of Eastern Europe. Millions have suffered and died in the pogroms of the Nietzschians, Marxians etc. I fail to understand why communists always escape the tag of bigots and only the religionists are subjected to it. Pigheadedness is found in more or less equivalent amounts in both groups. Fascism is just as much fanaticism as any radicalism born out of adherence to religion. Besides, not every orthodoxist is an Osama or a VHP-style goon, Kupps and Shankar elaborated on this so let me quit at this.

Secondly, you quoted the hypocritical practices of proponents - have you read the biographies of Mao Tse Tung/Marx(even Karunanidhi for that matter!)? If you read it, you will find their personal lives are as hedonistic as that of Saddam and his sons (ya ya, plzz dont accuse me of childishly bringing this aspect - CHARITY BEGINS AT HOME, oorukku upadesham sonna mattum podhadhu, consistency in lifestyle venum. I cant inculcate communism into my kids if all its leaders cant live up to its precepts). Kerala colleges-la SFI, DYFI panra koothu namakku nallave theriyum. Communism is a bundle of contradictions and suffers just like any other concept - the framework is too idealistic and the reality never measures upto it.

njv,
pls let this continue - Anand pathi pesavendiyadhellaam pesi theerthutomey :)

Kupps
22nd July 2005, 04:14 AM
app_engine,

I am clear about what I am talking. It is only that I am not able to define it for others. Believe me, I don't have any vague idea about these things to have an assumption based sweeping statements.

This is not just for those two "isms" but also includes the religious fundamentalism.

taliban pOna oru al queida; vhp pOna oru bajrang dal; oru suvisesha azhaippu "sahodarar" pOnaa innoru "sahOdharar" (veLLai thOlO illa nattu thOlO).

bottom line is intolerance towards others; mind-fixation that only their path is right and rest is evil fit to be eliminated; using puratchi/jihad/karsevai/pseudo-democratic-intellecutalism to try to anhilate others who are not in their camp.

Kupps
22nd July 2005, 04:22 AM
neenga ellaathayum #define paNNa paakkareenga...

naan #include panna sollurEn avvaLavu thaan. #include paNNa patta library program source code-a paaththirukka chance kammi thaan aana adhula irukkara functionality ellaam adha use paNNaravangaLukku theriyum thaanE. appadi thaan idhuvum-nu vachchikkOnga.

enna paNNuradhu sariyaa articulate paNNa theriyaadhavanOda neenga pEsina unga gadhi avvaLavu thaan. :)

alwarpet_andavan
22nd July 2005, 12:59 PM
Since Taliban is gone, they will be now replaced by VHP (who think they are still ruling India) :-) And the common btw these ppl. is Intolerant towards others and over doing things.
:clap: :thumbsup: :clap: Well said alias
Oh, on second thoughts there'll be a lot of people here who'll pounce on me by citing examples of Taliban's fundamental practices, the hedonistic lifestyles of their leaders, their hypocritic policies and trying to justify how/why VHP is better than Taliban!

alwarpet_andavan
22nd July 2005, 01:06 PM
Thought i'd said my last word on this but some posts made me reply.....

Kupps,
I'm with you on the 3 prism thing....

hehe,
You'd do well to also remember what the capitalist superpower who conjured up the Iron Curtain phrase did to Nicaragua, Guatemala, Cuba and Haiti, amonst other places. And about the lifestyles, the less said the better. Hypocrisy exists everywhere, its not a Commie-copyrighted thing.

PERIOD

Shankar
22nd July 2005, 03:29 PM
Thought i'd said my last word on this but some posts made me reply.....

Kupps,
I'm with you on the 3 prism thing....

hehe,
You'd do well to also remember what the capitalist superpower who conjured up the Iron Curtain phrase did to Nicaragua, Guatemala, Cuba and Haiti, amonst other places. And about the lifestyles, the less said the better. Hypocrisy exists everywhere, its not a Commie-copyrighted thing.

PERIOD

Hypocrisy exists every...true...but its the max with communists...and more often than not they have failed in their agenda (thankfully - for most of the times they try to disrupt a stabel system...claiming to make it ideal..and ending up doing exactly the wrong thing)...

alwarpet_andavan
22nd July 2005, 03:43 PM
Ozhiga communism, ozhiga "any workers' movements", Vaazhga capitalism, vaazhga MNC Rajyam (i work for one, for all my talk here!), vaazhga imperialism, vaazhga workers in sweatshop-inhuman conditions, vaazhga repressive client regimes, vaazhga ground-water depleted/polluted Coke hosting Kerala, vaazhga the great capitalist indian congress-BJP-dravidian-Lallu types, vaazhga G8 sponsored state-terrorism, vaazhga global warming, vaazhga Lockheed Martin, vaazhga Halliburton, vaazhga Agent Orange, vaazhga Cluster bombing, vaazhga masatra commie thollayilladha ulagam, inge yellam "ideal"-aga irukkiradhu. Vaazhga!

My lips are sealed and I AM escape!!!!!!! :)

rajasaranam
22nd July 2005, 04:23 PM
Alwarpet
:rotfl: :lol: :rotfl: :lol: :rotfl:
That was the best post in this anti-RED camp :thumbsup:

inetk
22nd July 2005, 04:53 PM
Without getting into Anand's past articles (that are supposed to be equally abrasive), I'm wondering whats all this issue about?

If IR is not forthcoming about his dalit beginnings, does it make him a lesser musician? Cant he have leanings towards Thiruvannamalai and not want to associate himself with the garbage mentioned? Is that a crime?

Making good music for us to enjoy is very different from being a perfect human (as if there is a perfect human, after all, isnt that only a perception and depends on what your idea of 'perfect' is?). If IR thinks Live 8, Dylan and Gaddar are garbage, so be it. If I do not think so, it will not stop me from listening to IR - because of one simple reason...his ideology is of no importance to me when I'm listening to his music.

Well, if folks in this forum are worried that this is unnecessary mudslinging and might tarnish IR's reputation - I've just one thing to say. You could help IR financially to release TIO, but you do not need to start an image building program for him. I'm sure he's old enough to handle his PR - that is, if he's interested in doing that. Given the way he deals with these things, I'm sure he would not even bother and continue with what he does best - create even better music.

Shankar
22nd July 2005, 05:25 PM
good....vAzhga AlwarpEt Andavan!!! :-)

RED discussion apart, 2 things which bind me, tmrrmt & AA (going by his name), are Raja & kamal...let's agree to disagree on our political views/idealogy & enjoy our common interest.

tmrrmt
22nd July 2005, 06:09 PM
all Bangalore TFMDFers, why don't we have a get-together sometime - it will be thrilling to meet the others in person !

alwarpet_andavan
22nd July 2005, 06:19 PM
good....vAzhga AlwarpEt Andavan!!! :-)

RED discussion apart, 2 things which bind me, tmrrmt & AA (going by his name), are Raja & kamal...let's agree to disagree on our political views/idealogy & enjoy our common interest.
:)
Yes, lets agree to disagree........

Raja and Kamal bind me too!

alwarpet_andavan
22nd July 2005, 06:21 PM
all Bangalore TFMDFers, why don't we have a get-together sometime - it will be thrilling to meet the others in person !
tmrrmt,
Cinefan, I, Sagalai-sakalakalavallavan here and RajaRam (if he's interested) have planned to meet up tentatively on Aug-20 to watch "Rama Shyama Bhama" in Bangalore. I got my transfer recently to Chennai and i'll be making the trip on that weekend. We can work it out.......

tmrrmt
22nd July 2005, 06:28 PM
is "Rama Shyama Bhama" releasing that soon ?!

alwarpet_andavan
22nd July 2005, 06:32 PM
Heard from Cinefan that its slated for Aug-15 release. Not confirmed, though......

Cinefan
22nd July 2005, 06:36 PM
is "Rama Shyama Bhama" releasing that soon ?!

I was unavailable yesterday,today morn&this thread has seen a lot of activity.A pity you guys have already agreed to disagree&made peace :D How I am itching to have a go at the Indian Communists esp Harkishen Singh Surjeet&Sitaram yechury.It's Ok,maybe in some other thread. :)

tmrrmt,
Yes it is releasing that soon.(Still not confirmed, but at the moment there is no reason why it should not be out on Aug 18th)Interested in joining us.

BTW,apart from myself anyone else with a good knowledge of kannada?

AA,any idea wht happened to Vallavar?

alwarpet_andavan
22nd July 2005, 06:40 PM
I was unavailable yesterday,today morn&this thread has seen a lot of activity.A pity you guys have already agreed to disagree&made peace :D How I am itching to have a go at the Indian Communists esp Harkishen Singh Surjeet&Sitaram yechury.It's Ok,maybe in some other thread. :)

Vivek: Adappavi adappavi, inga oru retha aare oditrukku, vandhu rendu vartha solluvennu patha velaye illadha office-la yaarukku da vela pakkara. Un kadamai unarchikku oru alave illiya da??? :(

Ippo dhaan "yutham" onjirukku, thiruppi arambikka vendam :)

tmrrmt
22nd July 2005, 06:43 PM
My Kannada is so good that if I speak the same in public, there is no need for the Cauvery dispute, my Kannada itself will become a disputed issue

tmrrmt
22nd July 2005, 06:46 PM
and what happened to V.velaiyadu ? no news ?

Cinefan
22nd July 2005, 06:59 PM
and what happened to V.velaiyadu ? no news ?

Pochhuda,konjam 'Tamil films' section-kku vaanga Sir,you will get to know the latest.

BTW,are you at least aware that the producer tried to commit suicide&survived,everyone started to blame Kamal for it&the producer,Kamal&Gautham had to hold a press conference to refute it.

Catch all the latest in the 'Tamil films'section. :D

alwarpet_andavan
22nd July 2005, 07:00 PM
Gautham is/was shooting an Ad with Surya in the lead....
The shooting is expected to commence in a week's time. They are scheduled to shoot in the U.S as planned.......

njv
22nd July 2005, 07:10 PM
Interesting... After VV Kamal is going to work for Selvaragavan (music by YSR / IR?). Cinefan usually give occurate info abt kamal movies, any comments sir?

jaiganes
23rd July 2005, 10:23 AM
Interesting interview of ARR in Vijay Times(Bangalore- the paper some Hindu fans hate). ARR says that he is not thrilled in using electronics for music anymore and is working hard to incorporate accoustic sounds of human players more into his music these days. He also laments the need to go to Prague or London for good orchestration.
Seems like ARR also has joined IR in striving for more rich orchestration against the heavy synth instrumentation , which could only mean more intricate and beautiful compositions from ARR too.
Bonanza time for music lovers ahead. Proud to have ARR and IR , both from South India mesmerizing the whole nation.
Also read in thatstamil.com , ARR's interview in which he says Thiruvasagam is a great work and Ilaiyaraja is a gnani and that he would love to work with Raaja again. :thumbsup:

Cinefan
25th July 2005, 12:10 AM
Interesting... After VV Kamal is going to work for Selvaragavan (music by YSR / IR?). Cinefan usually give occurate info abt kamal movies, any comments sir?

I don't think so,Selva is doing 'Puthupettai' at the moment which will be followed by a telugu film with Venkatesh.May be next year, but def not Kamal's next after VV.

kannansanderson
25th July 2005, 06:17 PM
Ganani Article Page 1 (http://www.geocities.com/kannansanderson/ganani/page_1.jpg)

Ganani Article Page 2 (http://www.geocities.com/kannansanderson/ganani/page_2.jpg)

Ganani Article Page 3 (http://www.geocities.com/kannansanderson/ganani/page_3.jpg)

Ganani Article Page 4 (http://www.geocities.com/kannansanderson/ganani/page_4.jpg)

Ganani Article Page 5 (http://www.geocities.com/kannansanderson/ganani/page_5.jpg)

Ganani Article Page 6 (http://www.geocities.com/kannansanderson/ganani/page_6.jpg)

Ganani Article Page 7 (http://www.geocities.com/kannansanderson/ganani/page_7.jpg)

Ganani Article Page 8 (http://www.geocities.com/kannansanderson/ganani/page_8.jpg)

Ganani Article Page 9 (http://www.geocities.com/kannansanderson/ganani/page_9.jpg)

Shankar
25th July 2005, 07:02 PM
i can't go beyond page 3...can you pls provide the correct links ?

vidhaNdavAdham paNNa oru koottam eppOdhum irukkum...adhil ivarum oruvar...ivar career il sAdhichadhu ennavendrAl, oru jOlnA paiyyai thonga vittu koNdu, art movie review paNNittu, adoor appadi paNNirundhA nallArukkum, aravindan ippadi paNNinA nallarukkum nu sollikkONdu alaigiravar ivar. gnAni enra peyAr ivar thanakkE soottikoNdadhu thAnE ?

adhukku Ettra madhippai koduththu, indha katturaiyai nirAgari enru enadhu manam kooRugirathu.

app_engine
25th July 2005, 07:11 PM
Well said Shankar!

matRavarkaLAl Gnani endRu azhaikkappadupavarkaL uNdu...
thAngaLE thangaLai Gnani endRu sollikkoLkiRavarkaLum uNdu...

alwarpet_andavan
25th July 2005, 07:24 PM
Sent my feedback on this article in particular and articles by Anand S in general to the Mail Ids listed below......
Those of you here who haven't done so already and who have something to say about this article or Anand S's articles pl do so....

letters@outlookindia.com , mail@outlookindia.com ,
freespeech@outlookindia.com , feedback@outlookindia.com and
outlook@outlookindia.com

Kupps
26th July 2005, 08:37 AM
comments on gnani are as distasteful as his so-called critical review of TiS.

The criticism of Tis from gnani seems to be more of grudge (or may be misplaced notion or prejudice) than a critical review of the product. Also I feel that many of his real critical points are taken from real critical points this forum and dhool. it is just my instinct feeling not based on any fact, though.

But overall gnani's criticism woobles here and there. I could see he tries hard to contain his urge of criticising IR.

Meter-kku matter paNNi IR poI solluraar -- ofcourse, thats what WCM way of tuning, right? (As srikanth or some other knowledgeable person pointed out here or in dhool).

Anu malick and other copycats term their shameless copies as coincidence. So does it mean that a real coincidence need to be compared with Anu malick's claim? (Gnani's comment on cross over with hindi movie makers).

Why should he stop at MBSrinivasan's achievement? G. Ramanathan did it long before MBS. Why didn't gnani went upto that when he indeed want to mention historical evidence to show that IR's wasn't the first. Is it because that MBS has to be dragged on to show off his (gnani's) affinity towards certain ideology here? (here im not against MBS or his ideological inclination, nor i am a fool to be ridiculing what MBS has done for TFM).

But there are certain critical points that gnani has pointed out to which i too agree. But again, per my doubt and my belief its already pointed out by our inhouse experts, and i feel that gnani has ripped-off from that (i would apologize if gnani hasn't indeed done that. what to do i am also influenced by gnan's thought wherein any coincidence also has to be treated as copy, just like he thought about the cross over).

But its good that gnani has shown his limitation in this area, when he attempted to show the limitation of TiS.

My take is, this is nothing but grudge pepperred with a few ponderable to real facts. Even with all these limitations, of which even as a non-expert, worse-than-a-novice, i too feel, even then, TiS has appealed a lot to me.

njv
26th July 2005, 09:09 AM
Here is a "Polambal" from a very low life, who cant achieve anything. It seems even Viagara is not working out for him, so he started "blabbering".

This lowlife will find its place in HELL very soon.

sats
26th July 2005, 09:29 AM
Gnani in this article has taken a dig at IR on the following points

1. On not doing anything for people of his caste
2. being selfish and egoistic
3. doing this album to cover up his failure in cine field

He also takes a dig at Richard King saying the mixing is not good, then at manikavasagar and finally Siva peruman (itself). Iam not sure who else is left

He also says that this album will be a failure .... looks like he has more personal problem with IR than his music.

"No matter what they tell us , what we believe is true"

njv
26th July 2005, 09:48 AM
he is some mother fucker. dont bother man

Kupps
26th July 2005, 10:48 AM
njv

your comments are more bothersome than gnani's verbal diorreah.

btw, i hope your first comment (after my post) was indeed referring to gnani's and not mine :D

r_kk
26th July 2005, 10:49 AM
[tscii:39a70e6862]Can any one of you explain one simple thing?

I had gone through the effort of Tamil Mayyam in creating TIS and it has been stated that they still need lot of money to overcome the loan burden.
http://www.tamilmm.com/tis_donate.html

At the same time, I also read the following article, in which it has been stated that IR had donated Rs 27.84 lakh worth of diamond Jewell to Mookambikai temple recently and intend to donate a diamond crown worth Rs.70 lakhs.
http://www.bellevision.com/newsheadindetail.asp?nhidtl=2831

Why the loan burden due to TIS for was not compensated by the money spent as donation to temple, after all both efforts lead to the same cause (i.e., Attaining God or Salvation, if at all there)?

I can’t understand the economics behind. (Some what similar to my lack of understanding behind reasons of big companies going bankrupt while their chairman and presidents maintain heigh level of personal wealth, i.e., called modern economy!!!)

[/tscii:39a70e6862]

Kupps
26th July 2005, 11:37 AM
*deleted*

Kupps
26th July 2005, 11:40 AM
Why the loan burden due to TIS for was not compensated by the money spent as donation to temple, after all both efforts lead to the same cause (i.e., Attaining God or Salvation, if at all there)?


if both are indeed salvation part they why shouldn't IR donate to a temple?


Some what similar to my lack of understanding behind reasons of big companies going bankrupt while their chairman and presidents maintain heigh level of personal wealth

yeah same way as those mysterious "revolutions for uplift of downtrodden" maintained the status quo.

arguments apart. I second your opinion in principle. I too wish IR, if he can, can contribute to paying off the loan. but i dont want to say that categorically because of two reasons:
1) my belief in IR (blind-faith may be) that he doesn't do cheap.
2) i don't have enough information to the contrary (i.e. IR hasn't monetarily contributed anything to this project).

rajasaranam
27th July 2005, 12:38 AM
arguments apart. I second your opinion in principle. I too wish IR, if he can, can contribute to paying off the loan. but i dont want to say that categorically because of two reasons:
1) my belief in IR (blind-faith may be) that he doesn't do cheap.
2) i don't have enough information to the contrary (i.e. IR hasn't monetarily contributed anything to this project).

Hmmm interesting isnt it?
Yes IR has not contributed anything monetarily is the truth.
40 Lakhs was raised by TIS-USA Team
another 50 lakhs came in from companies like MAFoi, Shriram Chits et all who are found on the cover of TIS-CD
another 20 lakhs were raised by IR-Yahoo Groups and from miscellaneous individuals.
So 1.10 Crore summarise from this amount.
I dont find anything wrong in Raising money for a venture like this. The only sore point is when i came to know that -
1.The recording was fixed at Budapest and 50% advance was given already. and they had to pay remaining 50% 1 hr before the recording. everything was set but there was no money at hand and the people who promised to give money backed off...Fr.Jegath didnt know what to do... someone else wired that money immtly [amounting to around 10 lacs] and saved Fr. from the crisis.
2. Fr. Borrowed money for interest as much as @ 21% and was not able to meet the loan/interest repayment at one point. At this time some one else came in for rescue.
3. Similarly TISK had to mortgage his home @ US to raise money at some other time of crisis.
My feeling is IR could have come in for the rescue at these junctures when he has so much money to donate for temples. And possibly taken those amounts at a later date without any interest. :roll:

njv
27th July 2005, 01:17 AM
Only Father, IR, TISK can answer to your questions. I think the internet is spoiling us too much. From what little I know, IR will get 50% of the profile and 50% goes to tamil maiyam. IR didnt charge a penny for composing TIS and from two reports I read on the net, 60,000 CDs sold internationally and 1.5 lakh CD sold in total, so TamilMaiyam must have repayed the loan by now (or atleast in a position to).

FYI, IR was in debt and only YSR was funding IR for hte last few years, so whatever IR gave was probably YSR money or money has must have got from TIS profit.

Having said that, I can not justify anyone "donating" that much money to any temple. Instead he should have donated atleast to some "Anaathai Ashram" or for CM's tsunami fund.

IR is like my father's age, so they wont change, so there is no point in blamming them as well. Let us change and bring a change to society.

r_kk
27th July 2005, 08:24 AM
[tscii:757ee78b4d]


arguments apart. I second your opinion in principle. I too wish IR, if he can, can contribute to paying off the loan. but i dont want to say that categorically because of two reasons:
1) my belief in IR (blind-faith may be) that he doesn't do cheap.
2) i don't have enough information to the contrary (i.e. IR hasn't monetarily contributed anything to this project).


Having said that, I can not justify anyone "donating" that much money to any temple. Instead he should have donated atleast to some "Anaathai Ashram" or for CM's tsunami fund. IR is like my father's age, so they wont change, so there is no point in blamming them as well. Let us change and bring a change to society.

Thanks Kupps and njv for expressing it.
Whatever be the economics, IR has his own right to act according to his own wish. We don’t have any right to verify the balance sheet, as long as we haven’t contributed to their effort. Since Tamil mayyam is planning to utilize all its profit share for its future projects, making profit out of TIS is totally acceptable and even highly appreciable.

I understand the anger expressed by IR’s fans against those who posted against IR’s statement. I understand and respect your feelings. At the same I also expect that IR and his sincere fans should understand the pain felt by comrades (not followers or fans) and the suppressed mass behind Gadder ( Read this article to understand his life http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/sep182004/ac1.asp ) )when hearing their efforts as “Garbage” (still I personally feel IR might not have really meant it)

Then I have another one simple question. (I have few more simple questions.)
Who are going to be the audiences for TIS? Can any one of you please tell that, considering the cost of CD/Tape or richness of music?
1. Western people
2. NRI Tamils
3. Non-Tamil speaking Indians
4. Tamil speaking upper and lower middle class people
5. below lower middle class people
[/tscii:757ee78b4d]

hehehewalrus
28th July 2005, 12:39 AM
comments on gnani are as distasteful as his so-called critical review of TiS.

guys,
dont bother about such lowlives like Gnani who seek cheap publicity by talking useless aspects of great artists.
What will be remembered after 15-20 years?

1) IR's musical magic?

or

2) IR's contribution or non-contribution to Global Warming, Ozone Layer Depletion Awareness, Human Cloning and Stem Cell Research?

You all know the answer. So dont waste your energies discussing worthless issues :P

njv
28th July 2005, 01:32 AM
Who are going to be the audiences for TIS? Can any one of you please tell that, considering the cost of CD/Tape or richness of music?
1. Western people
2. NRI Tamils
3. Non-Tamil speaking Indians
4. Tamil speaking upper and lower middle class people
5. below lower middle class people
[/tscii]
Prety much everyone. This is not limited to rich people only.

CD price in India is Rs 150, compared to Rs 90 for any movie CDs

Tape price in India is Rs 90 compared to Rs 45 for any movie CDs.

In USD terms, one movie CD cost between 8 - 12 USD (depends on where you buy), so USD 15 for TIS CD.

Its like someone giving up 2 movie albums for one TIS, so I dont think the poor are left alone.

app_engine
28th July 2005, 01:55 AM
One crazy person was arguing in a blog in favor of MP3 downloads stating that his maid servant's son, a poor person, can only that way get access to TiO as he cannot buy a Rs 50 cassette (news reports and that blog put the price of cassette at 50 and not at 90 as njv says here)...I placed a comment there that for 1 hour of music file, the MP3 size will be 60MB (for cassette quality) and with the dial-up stuff in Chennai, he'll end up spending more money on telephone / ISP costs than the price of a cassette...

There was also another poster there who mentioned that it must have been his maid servant's son who paid 250 bucks to see the first day show of chandramuki...

When it comes to spending money for ANY ITEM THAT IS BELOW ONE'S MONTHLY INCOME, it is never a question of affordability, but a question of priority and choice.

I know 1000's of fellows who earn less than Rs 100 a day but spend just about the same amount for liquor on a daily average basis, making their wife work / pay for the household. (This is not to justify their wayword behaviour but just to illustrate that affordability is automatically there where there is craving...)

app_engine
28th July 2005, 02:05 AM
I'm not aware of any `upper class' or `upper middle class' people who pay 250 for a first day show of a movie release but most of them belong to the lower middle or below lower middle class...(speaking ONLY ECONOMICALLY here)...

I know a person who earned Rs 2000 monthly but insisted on paying 100 p.m. for cable TV...(apart from paying monthly installment of another 500 or so for TV, Fridge etc.) Finally he ended up working on Sunday's in some marriage functions (video assistant etc.) to meet family expenses. All the while his wife (home maker) used to spend at least 100 for `facial' etc. p.m.

Affordability? huh...

alias
28th July 2005, 02:26 AM
Who are going to be the audiences for TIS? Can any one of you please tell that, considering the cost of CD/Tape or richness of music?
1. Western people
2. NRI Tamils
3. Non-Tamil speaking Indians
4. Tamil speaking upper and lower middle class people
5. below lower middle class people
[/tscii]
Prety much everyone. This is not limited to rich people only.

CD price in India is Rs 150, compared to Rs 90 for any movie CDs

Tape price in India is Rs 90 compared to Rs 45 for any movie CDs.

In USD terms, one movie CD cost between 8 - 12 USD (depends on where you buy), so USD 15 for TIS CD.

Its like someone giving up 2 movie albums for one TIS, so I dont think the poor are left alone.

I think TIS is highlyy priced.. I dont know whether it is greed of IR and the ppl. who are promoting this album. I think for the extent viewership and for cause of album they should have sold this album for cheaper price which would have added to their sales figure. How many ppl. other than IR fans are going to buy this album. Already the audio market is on crash, these high priced cds will find limited listeners and most ppl. would prefer to buy pirated or download from net.

app_engine
28th July 2005, 02:44 AM
they should have sold this album for cheaper price - for how much? Rs 15 per cassette & Rs 25 per CD?

I bought a couple of Paul Mauriat CDs for Rs 450 from music world B'lore (which had around 12 tracks of 4-5 min) ...I don't think any LEGAL, NEW, MOVIE CD is sold at 90 as told by njv. It is usually 175 or more...

We all know that cost of independent music albums are to be recovered only from the proceedings of sales and/or public stage performances, unlike movie albums which are primarily paid for by the movie producers who depend upon auditorium collections , ad sponsors etc. (BPL paid millions of Rs for showing their logo in a Taal song...so did Coke who paid around 1 cr for Taal scenes)...

Please understand the basic break-even business economics before making outrageous statements like 'IR is greedy' 'Sponsors are greedy' etc. If you are programmer (say in India) will you work for < 20K per month? Same way no programmer will work for McDonald worker rate in U.S. These are simple economics. If you are not in software, please try considering cost of various groceries / vegetables / bus ticket etc.

If you dislike mathematics / accounting etc, please skip my post and proceed with your outpour:-)

hehehewalrus
28th July 2005, 05:19 AM
Aaahaaaa....vidamaataaangappa!!!

When the purpose is to bring IR to THARAMATTAM, the means justify the ends - CD is costly, donations were high, how many CDs were sold, why that many CDs only were sold, will poor guy buy, will rich guy buy, why did IR do this, why did IR do that......
Subam :notworthy:

tmrrmt
28th July 2005, 01:17 PM
guys, there are people in T.Nadu (and I am sure elsewhere as well), who earn Rs.1000/- or so a month and still manage to spend Rs.400/500 to watch the kind of junk that Rajinikanth has been dishing out since 1986-87

Poverty does exists - but don't call the above lot poor by any means - useless, brainless duds

jaiganes
28th July 2005, 03:55 PM
Aaha!
from S.Anand to gnaani o r_kk's social demographics of consumers of music to what now, entertainment prerogatives of economically backward people!!! This is one of the reasons why I visit forumhub!!!
That apart, I find gnaani's thoughts on Thiruvasagam by IR as something born out of deep hatred towards an ideological icon and lacking knowledge on subject of discussion - MUSIC.
No disrespect to a senior journalist, but he should refrain himself and let some music expert do the music review and should he choose to vent his frustrations on IR, should have chosen to do it in his journal's editorial, again refraining from discussing music.
I have one more idea why he migh have this anger at IR.
I was a regular reader of www.thinnai.com to which gnaani was regularly contributing articles. Most of his articles were thought provoking and appreciated. Some were outright "provoking". One of the aricles was on M.S.Subbalakshmi when she passed away.
Gnaani , even on this article couldn't let go of his "philosophical blabberings" and remarked that M.S. was a successful experiment of "Braminisation" while Ilaiyaraaja was a failed attmpt in "Brahminisation". This marked the end of his association with thinnai.com . The reaction of fans of M.S. and IR which led to snubbing of gnaani must have angered him to no extent and I see his "blabberings" on the latest work by IR as his own way of giving it back to IR fans.
It is really disappointing to see a very senior journalist and one of the few people committed to social reforms in Thamizh naadu lower himself to target IR and his music on a personal and unequal level. I hope gnaani wakes up and gets back to what he is best, bringing to light the social issues and writing on serious issues that he is very much capable of (not to say that TiO isn't a serious thing to discuss, just that on a social and political spectrum, tiO is not a factor).

This is my 2 cents and on Outlook anand, I have read his articles an they are usually a mumbo jumbo of ideological confusion (which I identify myself readily with:-)).

Shankar
28th July 2005, 05:00 PM
Jaiganes,

>>No disrespect to a senior journalist,<<

You don't have to be diplomatic when you are handling non-entities like him....People might think I'm saying this because he criticized Raja, but the truth is, I have been reading his articles for more than 6 yrs, and his only aim in his articles is to find fault with the HOT topic of the day...be it politics, movies, music, religion etc....He's a thEnga moodi journalist, naming himself gnAni, and throwing all these nonsense...He had no idea what he was talking about in his article on TbI and everyone knows it...

He had similarly criticized Kamal, adoor gopalakrishnan and the great padmarajan as well.

Shankar
28th July 2005, 05:01 PM
>>I hope gnaani wakes up and gets back to what he is best<<

What are you saying, man ? He's been doing what he is best at - mudslinging :-)

r_kk
28th July 2005, 08:58 PM
[tscii:0cc4234c68]I think this subject is become very emotional and every ones feeling is getting hurt. My anger was due to the just two words, published in Outlook article and till now I believe that IR might not have really meant it. I have lot of respect to IR musical genius ness and don’t have any intention to bring any bad image to IR’s works. So, let me say sorry for asking questions.

If you look back to my previous post, you can note that I had asked not only the economic level of audience but I also mentioned the richness of music. Based on my experience, I feel that the film songs of “Annakili” or “China Thambi” or “Alaigal Oaivathillai” or “Bharthi” had reached large segment of mass compared to “Nothing but Wind” or “How to name it”. Some times I personally feel that I can’t appreciate good Karnataka Keerthans or soap opera or symphony due to my lack of knowledge on such music. It is wrong to expect some genius to come down to my level and produce music. I hope IR might have tried his best to lift level of people like me, as he did it in “Sindhu Bhairavi”. Without hearing TIS, I can not comment on its richness. That’s why I had asked about its richness.

As he3w pointed out and most of us know, after few decades, IR music will remain and all other articles against him (Gnani or Anand or any one with similar attitude) will disappear. But I feel, in general, people remembers the songs of people more than some rich music (For example, I still hear my father's collection of Pattukottai poems not Thiagaraja Bhavathar great songs).

[/tscii:0cc4234c68]

njv
29th July 2005, 12:43 AM
[tscii]I feel that the film songs of “Annakili” or “China Thambi” or “Alaigal Oaivathillai” or “Bharthi” had reached large segment of mass compared to “Nothing but Wind” or “How to name it”. Some times I personally feel that I can’t appreciate good Karnataka Keerthans or soap opera or symphony due to my lack of knowledge on such music. It is wrong to expect some genius to come down to my level and produce music. I hope IR might have tried his best to lift level of people like me, as he did it in “Sindhu Bhairavi”. Without hearing TIS, I can not comment on its richness. That’s why I had asked about its richness.

TIS is not for music genius. It is for everyone. A telugu guy who has no tamil knowledge sings TIS just because he liked the rhythm. So its for everyone and thats the way IR scored TIS. For the same some ppl wont accept TIS as a "religious" product, cuz religious product usually have different instruments using (Nagaswaram, Thavil etc) or carnatic. It is just music for good pair of ears, music that will enrich your knowledge, energy and self confidence.

alias
29th July 2005, 03:46 AM
they should have sold this album for cheaper price - for how much? Rs 15 per cassette & Rs 25 per CD?

I bought a couple of Paul Mauriat CDs for Rs 450 from music world B'lore (which had around 12 tracks of 4-5 min) ...I don't think any LEGAL, NEW, MOVIE CD is sold at 90 as told by njv. It is usually 175 or more...

We all know that cost of independent music albums are to be recovered only from the proceedings of sales and/or public stage performances, unlike movie albums which are primarily paid for by the movie producers who depend upon auditorium collections , ad sponsors etc. (BPL paid millions of Rs for showing their logo in a Taal song...so did Coke who paid around 1 cr for Taal scenes)...

Please understand the basic break-even business economics before making outrageous statements like 'IR is greedy' 'Sponsors are greedy' etc. If you are programmer (say in India) will you work for < 20K per month? Same way no programmer will work for McDonald worker rate in U.S. These are simple economics. If you are not in software, please try considering cost of various groceries / vegetables / bus ticket etc.

If you dislike mathematics / accounting etc, please skip my post and proceed with your outpour:-)

The reason I quoted that it is highly priced was that IR says he has attained his goal by scoring and I thought this would be an album where he would not look for profit instead concentrate on ppl. listening to his album with cheaper price... The reason ppl. watch movie in pirated vcd is because of ticket price..samething ppl. get pirated cds and download on net because they think the price is too high. The reason Paul Mauriat cd is highly priced is because it is import quality.

But it looks like the ppl. associated with TIS want to make a merry which I doubt will happen.

kannansanderson
29th July 2005, 08:15 PM
[tscii]பொய்யர்தம் ‘மெய்’யும் அஞ்சேன் - திருவாசக மோசடி

ஞாநி

தமிழ் நாட்டு பத்திரிகை, தொலைகாட்சி, மீடியாக்களின் புனிதப் பசுக்களில் ஒருவர் இளையராஜா.
அவர் இசை அமைத்திருக்கிற திருவாசக இசைக் கோலத்தை வேறு யார் செய்திருந்தாலும் மீடியா ஒன்று கிழித்திருக்கும் அல்லது கண்டு கொள்ளாமல் விட்டுவிட்டிருக்கும். ஆனால் இளையராஜாவின் திருவாசகத்துக்கு கிடைத்திருக்கும் விளம்பரம் பிரும்மாண்டமானது. கருணாநிதியும் , ஜெயலலிதாவும் அறிக்கை விட்டுப் பாராட்ட வேண்டியது மட்டுமே பாக்கி. இளையராஜாவால் கொஞ்சம் ஓட்டு கிடைக்கும் வாய்ப்பு உண்டென்றால் அதுவும் நடந்து விடும்.

ஆனால் இசை‘ஞானி’யோ ஓட்டு அரசியல், சமூகம், சாதியம் இதற்கெல்லாம் அப்பாற்பட்டவர். ஆபாசப் பாட்டு பாடுகிறவன்கள், கர்ண கடூரமான இசைக்கு சொந்தக்காரர்கள் என்றெல்லாம் இங்கே சனாதனிகளால் பழிக்கப்படுகிற ராக் கலைஞர்கள் எல்லாம் ஜி-8 பணக்கார நாடுகள் ஆப்பிரிக்க நாடுகளின் கடனை ரத்து செய்ய வேண்டும் என்ற கோரிக்கையுடன் உலகெங்கும் இசைப் போராட்டம் நடத்துகிற வேளையில் , இளையராஜா தனக்கு ஈசன் கொடுத்திருக்கும் பிறப்புகளில் இதுவே கடைசியான ஏழாவது பிறப்பு என்று உண்ர்ந்துவிட்ட உச்சமான ஆன்மிக நிலையில் சஞ்சரிப்பவர். அதனால்தான் தனது முந்தைய அவதார கால சகோதரர்களுக்கு திண்ணியத்தில் மலம் ஊட்டப்பட்டால், அவர் சலனப்படுவதில்லை. அநேகமாக இது அவர்களுடைய மூன்றாவது ஜன்மமாக இருக்கலாம். ஏழாவது பிறப்பை அடைகிறபோது அவர்களுக்கும் ஈசன் தனக்கருளியது போல இம்மையிலும் மறுமையிலும் பேரானந்த வாழ்க்கையை அருளக் கூடும்.

இப்படிப்பட்ட ஆன்மிக மனம் ஈசன் கட்டளையால் ஒரு கருவியாகி ஒரு கோடியே பத்து லட்சம் ரூபாய் செலவில் அமைத்திருக்கிற திருவாசக இசை பற்றி பார்ப்போம். திருவாசகத்துக்கு அவர் இசை அமைத்திருப்பதாக சொல்லியிருப்பது முதல் பொய். அதை அவரே தன்னையறியாமல் உடைக்கிறார். இசைத் தகடின் கடைசியான ஆறாவது பாடல் ‘புற்றில் வாழ் அரவும் அஞ்சேன், பொய்யர்தம் மெய்யும் அஞ்சேன்’.

முதலில் சிம்பனி குழு ஒரு மெட்டை இசைக்கிறது. உடனே இளையராஜாவின் குரல் : “அடடே என்ன இது. இதுதான் சிம்பனி ஆர்க்கெஸ்ட்ராவா? ஆங். அடேயப்பா.” மறுபடியும் மெட்டு. இளையராஜா: “ஆஹா, ரொம்ப நல்லா இருக்கே , இதோட நம்ம மாணிக்க வாசகரைப் பாடினா எப்படி இருக்கும். எப்படி இந்த டியூன்?” மறுபடியும் மெட்டு. இளையராஜா உரக்க சிந்திக்கிறார்: “சரி இதுக்கு எந்தப் பாட்டு சரியா வரும்? ஆங். இதைப் பார்ப்போம்...” பாடுகிறார் : “முக்தி நெறி அறியாத மூர்க்கரை... அய்யோ பிரிச்சு பிரிச்சு வருதே வார்த்தையெல்லாம். இது சரியா இருக்கும்.” மறுபடியும் பாடுகிறார். “புற்றில் வாழ் அரவும் அஞ்சேன்”. அப்படியே தொடர்கிறார். மெட்டில் பாட்டு உட்கார்ந்துவிட்டது.

அதாவது பாட்டுக்கு மெட்டு அல்ல. சினிமா மாதிரியே மெட்டுக்குதான் பாட்டு. இளையராஜா ஏற்கனவே போட்டு வைத்திருந்த மெட்டுக்கு எந்தெந்த திருவாசக வரிகள் இயைந்து வருமோ அதை நிரப்பிப் போட்டிருக்கிறார். இதனால் அருட்திரு கஸ்பாருக்கு ஏற்படும் தர்ம சங்கடம் பற்றிக் கடைசியில் பார்ப்போம்.

ஆக இசைஞானி திருவாசகத்துக்கு இசை அமைக்கவில்லை. இசைக்கு திருவாசகத்தை அமைத்திருக்கிறார். அப்படி இல்லை என்றால் ஏன் அப்படி சொல்ல வேண்டும்? இது என்ன பொய்யர் தம் மெய்யா? மெய்யர் தம் பொய்யா? பொய்யர் தம் பொய்யேவா? எல்லாம் சும்மா ஒரு மார்க்கெட்டிங்தான் என்றால் அதில் ஆச்சரியப்பட ஏதுமில்லை. திருவாசகம் நீண்ட நாட்கள் முன்பே மார்க்கெட்டிங் ஸ்லோகனுடந்தான் வலம் வந்திருக்கிறது. “திருவாசகத்துக்கு உருகாதார் ஒரு வாசகத்துக்கும் உருகார்” என்பது தமிழ் மரபில் பழமையான ஒரு மார்க்கெட்டிங் ஸ்லோகன் அல்லவா?

மெட்டுக்குப் பாட்டோ, பாட்டுக்கு மெட்டோ, எப்படியோ இருந்துவிட்டு போகட்டும். எப்படி இருக்கிறது இந்த சிம்பனி ? இல்லை இது சிம்பனி இல்லை; சிம்பனி ஆர்க்கெஸ்ட்ரா வாசித்தது என்று ராஜாவே சொல்லியதாக சுஜாதா இந்த சி.டி யின் மீடியா பார்ட்னரான விகடனில் எழுதியிருக்கிறார். (மீடியா பார்ட்னர் என்றால் தனியே விளம்பரப் பக்கம் தவிர, எடிட்டோரியல் பக்கத்திலேயே விளம்பரம் செய்து உதவுபவர் என்று அர்த்தம்).

இது ஆரட்டோரியோ. (oratorio: musical work for orchestra and voices on a sacred theme என்றும் சுஜாதா விளக்கியிருக்கிறார்.) புனிதமான ஒரு கருத்தை இசைக்குழுவும் குரல்களும் இசைப்பதற்க்கு இயற்றினால் அது ஆரட்டோரியோ என்ற இந்த விளக்கப்படி எல்.ஆர். ஈஸ்வரி, வீரமணி வகையறாக்களின் அம்மன், அய்யப்பன், பிள்ளையார், நாகூர் ஹனீபாவின் கையேந்தல் எல்லாமே ஆரட்டோரியோ என்றுதான் என் பகுத்தறிவு மண்டைக்குத் தோன்றுகிறது. அப்படியானால் இசைஞானியின் தனித்துவ சாதனை இதில் என்ன ? சி.டி உறையில் கிளாசிக்கல் க்ராஸ் ஓவர் என்று போட்டிருக்கிறது.

அண்மைக்கால வர்த்தக கோலிவுட், பாலிவுட், ஹாலிவுட் சினிமாக்களில் க்ராஸ் ஓவர் படம் என்றால் இரண்டு அர்த்தம். இதுவரை மசாலா படம் எடுத்த இயக்குநர் இப்போது கலைப்படம் எடுக்கிறார். இன்னொரு அர்த்தம் வெளி நாட்டு வாழ்க்கையில் இருக்கும் இந்தியர்கள் பற்றிய கதையை எடுக்கிறார்.

இசையில் கிளாசிகல் கிராஸ் ஓவர் என்றால் என்ன பொருள்? இந்த ஊரின் சாஸ்த்ரீய சங்கீதமும் மேலை நாட்டு சாஸ்திரீய சங்கீதமும் ஒன்றொடொன்று குறுக்கிட்டுக் கலப்பதாகும். இந்த மாதிரி கலப்புகளையும் ஏற்கனவே பலர் செய்திருக்கிறார்கள். அவர்கள் யாரும் திருவாசகத்தை எடுக்கவில்லை. ராஜா அதில் கையை வெச்சிட்டாரு. அதுதான் வித்தியாசம்.

இந்திய செவ்வியல் மரபில் மெலடி எனப்படும் மெட்டுக்கு முக்கியத்துவம் உள்ளது. மேற்கத்திய செவ்வியல் மரபில் ஹார்மனி எனப்படும் ஒத்திசைவுக்கு முக்கியத்துவம் தருகிறார்கள். இரண்டையும் இணைப்பதாகக் கொள்ளலாம். இதையும் பலர் முன்பே செய்திருக்கிறார்கள். அதில் முக்கியமானவர் மறைந்த இசைமேதை எம்.பி.சீனிவாசன். இவர் ராஜாவின் அண்ணன் பாவலர் வரதராசனின் தோழர். இசைக் கலைஞர்களின் உரிமைக்காகவும் சினிமா தொழிலாளர்களின் உரிமைக்காகவும் தொழிற்சங்கம் அமைத்து பெப்சியை உருவாக்கிய முன்னோடி. அவர் என்ன செய்தார் என்பதை பின்னால் பார்க்கலாம்.

ராஜாவின் ஆறு திருவாசகப் பாடல்களில் கேட்க இனிமையாக இருப்பவை இரண்டுதான். ‘முத்து நற்றாமம்’ என்ற ஐந்தாம் பாட்டும், ‘புற்றில் வாழ்’ என்ற ஆறாம் பாட்டும்தான். முதல் பாட்டு ‘பூவார் சென்னி மன்ன’னுக்கு மூன்றாவது இடம் தரலாம். மீதி மூன்றும் மெலடி, ஹார்மனி இரண்டும் தடம் புரண்டவை. பொதுவாகவே எல்லா பாடல்களிலும் மிக்சிங் எனப்படும் குரல் - இசைக் கலப்பு மோசமாக இருக்கிறது. ஏற்கனவே புரியக் கடினமான சொற்களை அழுத்தும் விதத்தில் இசையின் இரைச்சல் அதிகம்.

சுஜாதா பரிந்துரைத்தபடிதான் காசு கொடுத்து சிடி வாங்கி, நல்ல சிஸ்டத்தில், தனிமையில், இரவில், இரண்டு நாள் கழித்து மறுபடியும், பாடலகளைக் கேட்டேன். இந்த சி.டியை எப்படிக் கேட்டாலும், மனசாட்சிப்படி உண்மையை சொல்ல விரும்பும் யாரும் சொல்லுவார்கள். இதை விட அருமையான இசையை, மெட்டை, பாடல்களை இளையராஜா சினிமாவில் ஏற்கனவே வழங்கியிருக்கிறார். இதுவரை அவர் சினிமாவில் செய்த எந்த இசைச்சாதனையையும் இது கடந்து விடவும் இல்லை. கடக்கப்போவதும் இல்லை. நூறாண்டுகள் கழித்து இது நிலைக்கும் என்பதெல்லாம் சுத்த புருடா.

கிளாசிக்கல் கிராஸ் ஒவராக இருவர் செய்திருக்கும் இரண்டு மட்டும் இங்கே பார்க்கலாம். எம்.பி. சீனிவாசன் உருவாக்கிய நூற்றுக்கணக்கான சேர்திசைப் பாடல்கள் எல்லாமே மெலடியும் ஹார்மனியும் இயைந்தவைதான். சுத்த தன்யாசி ராகத்தில் சேர்ந்திசைக் குழு பாடியிருக்கும் சொற்களற்ற மெட்டும், பாரதிதாசன் பாடலான ‘அம்மா உந்தன் கைவளையாய்’ என்ற கவிதையை சேர்ந்திசையில் கருவிகளே இல்லாமல் முற்றிலும் மனிதக் குரல்களைக் கொண்டே எம்.பி.எஸ். அமைத்திருக்கும் இசைக் கோலமும் கேட்டார் பிணிக்கும் தகையவை. கர்நாடக சங்கீதத்தில் அமைந்த கிருதிகளை மேலை ஆர்க்கெஸ்ட்டிரா முறையில் வயலின், டபிள் பாஸ், செல்லோ உதவியுடன் ‘ரெசோனன்ஸ்’ என்ற தலைப்பில் வி.எஸ். நரசிம்மன் அமைத்திருக்கும் இசைக்கோலம் இன்னொரு சாதனை.

இசைப் புலமையும், அறிவுக்கூர்மையும் உடையவரான இளையராஜவுக்கே நிச்சயமாக தன்னுடைய திருவாசக இசைக் கோலம் சாதாரணமானது என்பது தெரிந்திருக்காமல் இருக்க வாய்ப்பில்லை. திருவாசகத்தை இசைக்க ஒரு சிம்பனி ஆர்க்கெஸ்ட்ரா தேவையில்லை. சென்னையில் சினிமாவுக்கு வாசிக்கும் திறமையான இசைக் கலைஞர்களே போதும் என்பதும் தெரிந்திருக்கும். ஆனால் ஹங்கேரியின் சிம்பனி ஆர்க்கெஸ்ட்டிராவைப் பயன்படுத்தி ஒரு கோடிக்கு மேல் செலவு செய்து இப்படி ஒரு சாதாரண விஷயத்தை செய்ய வேண்டிய அவசியம் என்ன?

அவருடைய ஈகோதான். சினிமா இசைத்துறை தன்னைக் கடந்து போய்விட்டதை அவரால் ஜீரணிக்க முடியவில்லை. அதில் அவர் கோலோச்சிய காலத்திலும் அவரது ஈகோ மற்ற திறமையாளர்களை அங்கீகரித்ததில்லை. ஹவ் டு நேம் இட் ஆல்பத்தில் அவருடைய அருமையான இசைக் கோர்வையை பல மடங்கு சிறப்பாக்கியதில் அதை வயலினில் வாசித்த வி.எஸ்.நரசிம்மனின் பங்கு முக்கியமானது. ஆனால் நரசிம்மனை அவர் பகிரங்கமாக அதற்காக பாராட்டிப் பேசியதில்லை. புன்னகை மன்னன் படத்தில் காதல் தீம் இசையை இளையராஜா இயற்ற அதை கம்ப்யூட்டர் சீக்வென்ஸர் முறையை முதன் முதலாக பயன்படுத்தி வாசித்த கலைஞர் திலீப் என்கிற ஏ.ஆர். ரஹ்மான் என்று செய்திகள் வெளியானபோதும் ராஜா அதை மறுத்ததும் இல்லை. ஏற்றதும் இல்லை. இப்படிப்பட்ட விஷயங்களைப் பற்றி அவர் பொது வெளியில் பேசுவதில்லை.

ஏ.ஆர் ரஹ்மான் இசையமைப்பாளரானதும் முதல் பட கேசட் உறையிலேயே கோரஸ் பாடகர்கள் பெயர் முதல், புல்லாங்குழல், டிரம்ஸ், கிடார் என்று முக்கிய கருவிக் கலைஞர்கள் பெயர்கள் வரை வெளியிட தொடங்கினார். பல ஆண்டுகள் கழித்துதான் ராஜாவின் கேசட் உறையில் வேறு வழியில்லாமல் இந்த மாற்றம் வந்தது. ஏராளமான புகழ் வந்த பிறகும் ஈகோவை கை விட முடியாமல் இருக்கும் மன நிலைதான் சாமியார் இமேஜை உருவாக்கி, ஆன்மீகம் என்ற பெயரில் தத்துவ உளறல்களைப் புத்தகமாக்கி, ராஜாவைப் புதுப் புது உத்திகளை நோக்கி அலைய வைக்கிறது. சினிமா இசையில் ராமநாதனை விஸ்வநாதனும், விஸ்வநாதனை இளையராஜாவும், இளையராஜாவை ரஹ்மானும் கடந்து போய்க்கொண்டே இருக்கிறார்கள் என்பது சரித்திர உண்மை. கால ஓட்டத்தில் இது இயல்பானது என்பதை விஸ்வநாதன் உணர்ந்து ஏற்றதுபோல ராஜாவால் முடியவில்லை என்பதற்கு தொடர்ந்து பல அடையாளங்கள் இருக்கின்றன. அதில் இன்னொன்று இந்த திருவாசகம்.

மீடியா இப்போதும் கேட்க மறந்த, தயங்குகிற கேள்வி இங்கே முக்கியமானது. இளையராஜாவுக்கு மேஸ்ட்ரோ பட்டம் வரக் காரணமாயிருந்த அவர் இயற்றிய சிம்பனி இசை பத்தாண்டுகளுக்கு மேலாகியும் ஏன் இன்னமும் வெளியிடப்படாமலே இருக்கிறது? நிஜமாகவே அது இந்த திருவாசகத்தை விட சிறப்பான இசை முயற்சியாக இருக்கும் என்று நான் நம்புகிறேன். ஏனென்றால் அது படைப்பாற்றலின் உச்சத்தில் இருந்தபோது அவர் செய்த பணி. சினிமா துறை கை நழுவிப் போனபிறகு ஈகோவின் தள்ளாட்டத்தில் செய்த திருவாசகம் அல்ல.

இப்போது இந்த திருவாசக இசைக் கோவையின் நோக்கம்தான் என்ன? பக்தியைப் பரப்புவதா? ஓதுவோரின் எளிய இசையில் கேட்கும்போது கிடைக்கும் உருக்கம் கூட இதில் இல்லை. கடினமான் வரிகளை இசை இன்னமும் கடினமாக்குகிறது. பக்தி நோக்கம் அல்ல என்றால் வேறு எதற்காக திருவாசகம் ? இலக்கிய மாகவா? அப்படியானால் பொழிப்புரையையும் எளிய தமிழில் கூடவே எழுதி இசையமைக்க வேண்டும்.

“புற்றில் வாழ் அரவும் அஞ்சேன்” என்ற மெட்டுக்கு, “என்னில் நீ உறையும் அன்பே” என்று ஏதோ ஒரு பாட்டு எழுதிப் போட்டாலும் விற்கும்தானே?

விற்பதற்கான உத்திகளில் , விற்பனைக்கான கவன ஈர்ப்புக்கான உத்திகளில் திருவாசகம் பயன்படுத்தப்பட்டிருக்கிறது. உலகளாவிய தமிழர்களில் இன்று தமிழ்ப் புத்தகங்கள், சினிமா சி.டிக்கள் இவற்றின் விற்பனையில் கணிசமான பணம் கிடைப்பது புலம் பெயர்ந்த ஈழத் தமிழர்களிடமிருந்துதான் அவர்கள் மத்தியில் ஆழமாக வேரூன்றியிருக்கும் சைவப் பற்றை வியாபாரத்துக்கு பயன்படுத்த திருவாசகம் சிறந்த வழி என்பதில் சந்தேகம் இல்லை. திருவாசகத்துக்கு வைகோ கூட உருகியதும் ஈழத்தின் மீதுள்ள அன்பா? ஈசனின் மீதுள்ள அன்பா என்று ஆராயலாம்.

சைவ பக்தி , வியாபாரம் இரண்டிலும் ஆர்வம் அற்றவர்களாக இருக்க வேண்டும் என்று பொதுவாக எதிர்பார்க்கக்கூடிய கத்தோலிக்க கிறித்துவ பாதிரியார்கள் ஏன் இந்த திருவாசக இசையை வெளியிடுவதில் தீவிரப் பங்கேற்றார்கள்? கத்தோலிக்கப் பாதிரியும் தமிழ் மைய அமைப்பாளருமான அருட்திரு ஜெகத் கஸ்பார் ‘புதிய பார்வை’ இதழுக்கு அளித்த பேட்டியில் சொல்லுகிறார்: “திருவாசகம் ஓர் அற்புதமான பக்திப் பனுவல். நான் மாணவனாக இருந்தபோதே படித்துப் படித்து உருகிப் போயிருக்கிறேன். அதன் தத்துவ தரிசனைத்தை சிறு பிராயத்திலேயே உணர்ந்தவன். ஏகன்/அநேகன், அன்பே உண்மையான் வழிபாடு என்பன போன்ற மாணிக்க வாசகரின் தத்துவ வெளிப்பாடுகள் மதங்களை கடந்து நேசிக்கப்படுபவை. எனக்கு மிகவும் பிடித்த மறையாக திருவாசகத்தை பார்க்கிறேன்” என்று சொல்லியிருக்கிறார்.

அதெல்லாம் கஸ்பார் அறிந்துணர்ந்த திருவாசகம் நம்க்கு கேட்கக் கிடத்திருக்கும் திருவாசகத்தில் என்ன இருக&#3021

kannansanderson
29th July 2005, 08:19 PM
அதெல்லாம் கஸ்பார் அறிந்துணர்ந்த திருவாசகம் நம்க்கு கேட்கக் கிடத்திருக்கும் திருவாசகத்தில் என்ன இருக்கிறது என்று பார்ப்போமா?

அதில் ஆறாவது பாட்டிலே ஆரம்பத்திலேயே மாணிக்க வாசகர் சொல்லுகிறார்: “கற்றை வார் சடை எம் அண்ணல் கண்ணுதல் பாத நண்ணி , மற்றும் ஓர் தெய்வம் தன்னை உண்டென நினைந்தெம் பெம்மாற் கற்றில்லாதவரைக் கண்டால், அம்ம! நாம் அஞ்சும் ஆறே!”

அதாவது சிவனை தலை முதல் பாதம் வரை கண்டபின்னும் இன்னொரு தெயவம் உண்டென்று சொல்லுகிற அறிவில்லாதவனைப் பார்த்தால் நிச்சயம் பயப்பட வேண்டும். பாம்புக்கு பயப்பட வேண்டாம். பொய்யர் சொல்லும் மெய்க்கும் பயப்பட வேண்டாம் எண்கிறது இந்தப் பாடல்.

சிவனை அடி முதல் நுனி வரை இன்னும் காணாதவர்கள்தான் ஏசுவைத் தொழுது கொண்டிருக்க முடியும் என்றுதானே இதற்கு பொருள். கண்டபின்னும் தொழுதால் முட்டாள்களல்லவோ. மதங்களின் இயல்பே , ஒன்றை மற்றொன்று பழித்து அவரவர் அடியார் கூட்டத்துக்கு வெறியூட்டுவதுதான். மாணிக்கவாசகரும் அப்படித்தான் பாடியிருக்கிறார். அவருக்கு கடவுள் ஒருவர்தான். ஆனால் அவர் சிவன்தான்.

முன்னரே பாடல் வரிகளை கவனித்திருந்தால் இளையராஜாவும் அதை தவிர்த்திருப்பாராய் இருக்கும். ஆனால் அதுவும் முடியாது. மெட்டுக்குப் பொருந்தி வரும் வரிகளைத்தானெ அவர் எடுத்துக் கொண்டிருக்கிறார்.

“கத்தோலிக்க நண்பர்கள் மையத்தையும் பாஷை தெரியாத பில்ஹார்மனிக் குழுவையும், நியூயார்க் குரல்களையும் மாணிக்கவாசகர் என்னும் மேதையையும் ஒருங்கிணைத்தது” யார்?

ஈசன் தான் என்கிறார் இளையராஜா. பொய்யர்தம் மெய்களில் இதுவும் ஒன்று. காசேதான் கடவுளடா.

இந்த கடவுள் திருப்பணிக்கு காசு அருளியிருப்போரில் முக்கியமானவர்கள் அப்பாவிப் பொதுமக்களாகிய நாம்தான். பொதுத் துறை அரசு நிறுவனமான ஓ.என்.ஜி.சி, ஆயில் அண்ட் நேச்சுரல் காஸ் கமிஷன் தான் இந்த இசை வெளியீட்டுக்கு ஸ்பான்சர் என்று போட்டிருக்கிறது. எத்தனை லட்சம் கொடுத்தார்கள் என்று பகிரங்கப் படுத்தவில்லை.

எதற்காக அரசுப் பணத்தை இந்த திருவாசக வியாபாரத்துக்கு தர வேண்டும்? இதே போல இஸ்லாம், கிறித்துவ பக்திப்பாடல்கள் வெளியிடவும், பெரியார், அம்பேத்கார் பற்றி பாட்டு ஆல்பம் போடவும் தருவார்களா?

திருவாசக மோசடிகளில் இப்படி அரசுப் பணம் வீணாக்கப்படுவது ஒன்றும் ஆச்சரியமில்லை. திருவாசகத்தை அருளிய மாணிக்கவாசகரே அரசுப் பணத்தை மோசடி செய்தவர்தான். அவர் அமைச்சராக இருந்தபோது ராணுவத்துக்கு குதிரை வாங்கத் தந்த காசை கடவுள் பணிக்கு செலவிட்டுவிட்டு சிக்கிக் கொண்டார். ஊழலுக்கு உடந்தையாக இருந்தான் ஈசன். அரசன் கண்ணுக்கு நரிகள் எல்லாம் குதிரைகளாகத் தெரிய செய்தான்.

இளையராஜாவும் சிம்பனி குழுவைக் கொண்டு செய்த நரிப் பாட்டை பரிப் பாட்டாக நமக்குக் காட்டுகிறார். ஆனால் ஈசன் காப்பாற்ற வரவில்லை. வரமாட்டான்.

‘மெய்’ எந்த ரூபத்தில் வந்தாலும் சரி. திருவாசகம், நாலாயிர திவ்யப்பிரபந்தம், சிலப்பதிகாரம் (அதற்க்கெல்லாம் யாராவது கோடிக்கணக்கில் இளையராஜாவுக்குக் கொடுத்து உதவ வேண்டுமென்று சுஜாதா வேண்டுகோள் விடுத்திருக்கிறார்!)

பொய்யர் தம் ‘மெய்’யை அஞ்சோம்.

http://www.geotamil.com/pathivukal/elangovan_on_thiruvasakam.html

alias
29th July 2005, 09:59 PM
No way to describe my feeling.. Excellent article... I think this person exposed IR in some parts. Would have really interesting if it was in English.

njv
29th July 2005, 10:39 PM
alias, we disucssed this article in general. This is BS. kannansanderson is Gnani I think. Whoever it is, they just dont have eyes and ears. They are dead bodies living in the world.

please be prepared for similar critic from these kind of ppl when YOUR ARR also does a symphony. I am telling you this cuz, like I said, they are dead bodies who still walk around.

sats
29th July 2005, 10:57 PM
if you check the old messages on the TIS thread you can find kannansanderson making bad comments on SSSSAV and the album as a whole. It continues even after the album is released.

nilavupriyan
30th July 2005, 12:23 AM
EVEN WE CAN FIND FAULT WITH GOD,IF WE DELIBERATELY FIND FAULT.
JUST IGNORE THAT ARTICLE.

hehehewalrus
30th July 2005, 12:39 AM
Kannan Sanderson for President!!!

what do u think guys? :D

alias
30th July 2005, 02:54 AM
njv, I agree that he is making some stupid comments but there are something like giving credit which u cannot ignore. Yes IR has never given credit to anyone in his lifetime and also the cause of this symphony is dying due to make it commercial.

But nobody can ignore the fact that his music has cast a spell on all of us but well as they say TO ERR IS HUMAN :-)

TISK
30th July 2005, 03:12 AM
"also the cause of this symphony is dying"....

That was a [false] revelation when the fact is otherwise.!
Unless you have some inside information... then pl. share with us.
It has been a commercial success in India and here too, people are really working to make it available in every way possible which is unprecedented.
The support i am receiving is unparallelled.
Please do not spread rumours just for the sake of it.
Hope you take it in the right spirit.
YIA!!

sats
30th July 2005, 04:36 AM
Yes IR has never given credit to anyone in his lifetime

IR is a complete composer, the following is a cut and paste from other thread, when he does all by himself, i dont know y he shld give the credit to others


Arunmozhi(the flutist Napoleon) says that IR is the only MD he has come across who does everything himself. Other MDs atleast had a portion of the music making process given to someone else. But IR does the entire composition work himself without delegating any of it to his assistants. In that sense, he was a complete composer

njv
30th July 2005, 07:00 AM
"also the cause of this symphony is dying"....

That was a [false] revelation when the fact is otherwise.!
Unless you have some inside information... then pl. share with us.
It has been a commercial success in India and here too, people are really working to make it available in every way possible which is unprecedented.
The support i am receiving is unparallelled.
Please do not spread rumours just for the sake of it.
Hope you take it in the right spirit.
YIA!!

TISK, Neenga yen ivanunga levelukku irangi vareenga. Summa vidunga.

nilavupriyan
30th July 2005, 10:01 AM
njv, I agree that he is making some stupid comments but there are something like giving credit which u cannot ignore. Yes IR has never given credit to anyone in his lifetime and also the cause of this symphony is dying due to make it commercial.

But nobody can ignore the fact that his music has cast a spell on all of us but well as they say TO ERR IS HUMAN :-)
what do u all mean by commericial........even ramayana is first decided to do in the kings court .....not in temple.

another thing giving credits.the persons who excells so much i art always have an ego.even barathiyar considered him as king of poets and he is....... he didnt care anyone.

do u know about beethoven.he is so rude in stage.he used to utter bad words so often.

these are all common for legends.

MADDY
30th July 2005, 04:58 PM
yup, i agree with nilavu, legends do have a bad temper.........take case of salman khan, even he has a bad temper.......

nilavupriyan
30th July 2005, 07:56 PM
yup, i agree with nilavu, legends do have a bad temper.........take case of salman khan, even he has a bad temper.......
:lol: :lol: .......plz im talking about beethoven and barathiyar here

alias
30th July 2005, 09:16 PM
When you say u r releasing an album for a cause, it cannot be commercialized. Ask IR why he couldnt sponspor for the entire album production instead ask for public donation. Cant he afford with the money he has earned throughout his life. But no, he will not do. And I am sure that he would have made money with this album too. So please stop saying this album is for some cause and all those things.

And everyone has temper but the person who controlls his temper is a good human being.. now u decide :-)

Jacky
30th July 2005, 09:21 PM
yup, i agree with nilavu, legends do have a bad temper.........take case of salman khan, even he has a bad temper.......
:lol: :lol: .......plz im talking about beethoven and barathiyar here

Bharati will live as long as there is Tamil.
Beethoven will live as long as there is WCM. Can't be said about film composers who are mere mortal souls. If they work 50 years, probably their compositions will be remembered for another 50-100 years. If Bharati was cocky, it's a different story - it never legitimizes IR's behaviour.

nilavupriyan
30th July 2005, 11:31 PM
yup, i agree with nilavu, legends do have a bad temper.........take case of salman khan, even he has a bad temper.......
:lol: :lol: .......plz im talking about beethoven and barathiyar here

Bharati will live as long as there is Tamil.
Beethoven will live as long as there is WCM. Can't be said about film composers who are mere mortal souls. If they work 50 years, probably their compositions will be remembered for another 50-100 years. If Bharati was cocky, it's a different story - it never legitimizes IR's behaviour.

ir has a lot of talent friend.as he is in our era we cant realise his ability.anyway barathi and beethoven are out of comparison.
i just mean...all legends have some dfrawbacks like this.it doesnt affect the people.so.,why must we care about that

venus05
31st July 2005, 12:49 AM
During the initial days of the TIS (in this forum), the same person predicated that this venture is going to be failure and came up with all the possible negative things about the project, starting from IR could have begged, Ir is a theif, the organizer are going to runaway with money etc.,

Now after the release, as most of his cliams were proved false, after seeing the reaction from the people, he is posting the cut & paste of criticisms of some of the journalists(it seems he has selective amnesia). So far, as of I know, for every 1 negative reaction, there are at least 5 postive reactions to this album. And most important part is that he never directly posted any of his comments.

I think it is good idea to consider the following
"Gunam naadi kutram naadi avarrual magai naadi mica kozhaal"

Basically he has some personal contempt towards IR and his works. We do not need take his personal agenda very seriously.

venus05
31st July 2005, 02:37 AM
In my previous posting, I was pointing to one Mr. Kannan's postings.

kavin
3rd August 2005, 03:49 AM
Just to reiterate why Live-8 is garbage.

'during G-8, people were busy watching Live-8 while people in Africa were dying' .... this the current opinion in light of what is happening in Niger.

alias
3rd August 2005, 04:23 AM
Dude, people are dying every where every second. If thats the case, we should all stop being happy and worry. Yes disaster happens but whatovercomes is concerts like of ARR which was organized for a noble cause of Cancer and Unity of people. So stop your nonsense.

nilavupriyan
6th August 2005, 10:16 AM
Dude, people are dying every where every second. If thats the case, we should all stop being happy and worry. Yes disaster happens but whatovercomes is concerts like of ARR which was organized for a noble cause of Cancer and Unity of people. So stop your nonsense.
exactly.he is trying to stop the disaster in future.anybody cant do anything on present situation.

alias
9th August 2005, 04:19 AM
Yes, we can do... by organizing concert like ARR and not by asking people to donate money for symophony and then saying it is for a particular cause :-)

Shankar
9th August 2005, 10:55 AM
yeah...arr does it for free, right ?

alwarpet_andavan
9th August 2005, 11:41 AM
yeah...arr does it for free, right ?
:clap: :thumbsup: :clap: Nethi Adi!

Scale
9th August 2005, 12:10 PM
A_A,

ingha konjam vaangha. Sulukku eduthurukkangha paarungha!

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=191421&highlight=#191421

alwarpet_andavan
9th August 2005, 12:20 PM
A_A,
ingha konjam vaangha. Sulukku eduthurukkangha paarungha!
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=191421&highlight=#191421
Can you repeat the question????
Inga enna pesitrukkom neenga solradhu enna? Topic topic nu solluvanga aangilathla.... adha konjam parum.....

Scale
9th August 2005, 12:30 PM
A_A,
ingha konjam vaangha. Sulukku eduthurukkangha paarungha!
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=191421&highlight=#191421
Can you repeat the question????
Inga enna pesitrukkom neenga solradhu enna? Topic topic nu solluvanga aangilathla.... adha konjam parum.....

nethi adikkum sulukku edukkurathukkum mudichipotta digression thappu thaan A_A.

Regrets!

thumburu
9th August 2005, 02:30 PM
naaz's explanation gave a new insight into SAnand's
controversial questions. But still I doubt such a noble intention
from the interviewer. IR is not particularly known for any social cause .Knowing these fully, SAnand's motive might be just to fan casteist feelings and open raw wounds.

thumburu
9th August 2005, 02:33 PM
Even if I can give Anand the benefit of doubt , I prefer to ignore the senile rattling of (A)Gnani as one with severe acid reflux.

Shankar
9th August 2005, 03:22 PM
scale,
Come fwd and place "your" arguments...why do you shamelessly piggy back on vijay's data...I'm right now on the move...Once I am back at work, I will try to get the list of movies from those times and would substantiate my claim...(I hate doing this) In any case, Raja's hits in the first 5 years is much...much more than arr's hits in a decade of his stay in IFM.

PS: I really enjoy good works of arr, and hate foul mouthing him... whom/what i hate are those imbeciles who, to project arr as the best MD, deride Raja.

Scale
9th August 2005, 03:59 PM
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=191613#191613

Shankar
9th August 2005, 04:40 PM
scale,
andha thread ellAm irukkattum, vijay kitta pichai edukkAma, ungaLAla mudinjA proof edhAvadhu koNdu vanga, aprom pEsuvOm...

nilavupriyan
9th August 2005, 06:29 PM
Punnagai Mannan (1986)
Palavanai Rojakkal (1986)
Mr. Bharath (1986/I)
Mouna Ragam (1986)
Mela Thiranthathu Kadhavu (1986)
Manithanin Maru Pakkam (1986)
Mandhira Punnagai (1986)
Maaveran (1986)
Kadolara Kavithaigal (1986)
Amman Koil Kizhakkaalae (1986)
Aalaapana (1986)

this is only in 1986.if our friend kasi wants........i shall give a full list.

Scale
9th August 2005, 08:01 PM
scale,
andha thread ellAm irukkattum, vijay kitta pichai edukkAma, ungaLAla mudinjA proof edhAvadhu koNdu vanga, aprom pEsuvOm...

Voon moonjila ***** ***** kooda vonakku buthi vara maatenghudhe. Unnoda vandavalathe thandavalamakkina info va pichainnu vera solli kalatti vuda pakkariya. If thats what u call pichai, I am very much thankful to Vijayr personally & I dont feel shame for that too. Becoz, i started listening music deeply from 1990's(11 vayasu) and I dont know much about the complete hits of IR.

alias
9th August 2005, 08:28 PM
Here is the proof that Thiruvasagam is a commercial album and not for some cause as IR fans claim.It is pure gimmick by IR. If anyone has cinesouth subscription they can read the full article here.

http://www.cinesouth.com/masala/hotnews/new/09082005-1.shtml

alias
9th August 2005, 08:35 PM
scale,
Come fwd and place "your" arguments...why do you shamelessly piggy back on vijay's data...I'm right now on the move...Once I am back at work, I will try to get the list of movies from those times and would substantiate my claim...(I hate doing this) In any case, Raja's hits in the first 5 years is much...much more than arr's hits in a decade of his stay in IFM.

PS: I really enjoy good works of arr, and hate foul mouthing him... whom/what i hate are those imbeciles who, to project arr as the best MD, deride Raja.

Obviously he has more songs than ARR in a decade and the reason is IR wanted to make quick money since he was living on the platform. But ARR did not have to do that. But as far as the quality of hits is concerned, ARR is far far more superior than IR.

PS: We are not deriding IR but only trying to prove to those IR fans who does not accept ARR a powerful force in IFM.

ARR IS AN OCEAN OTHERS ARE A DROP.

kr
9th August 2005, 08:48 PM
alias:

With regard to quality, it may be your perception that ARR ranks better than IR.

I absolutely do not agree. Leave alone comapring the albums of IR's first 5-10 years to that of ARR's - where ARR's will pale in comparision in terms of quality - you may want to get IR's discography and take a single year like 1981 or 1982 and compare the albums - I dont think ARR's will match up to even a single year of IR's in terms of quality. Thats why people who are informed and aware of Ir's works cannot buy in to the hype that you guys try to buid about ARR. It may be possible for people from the North or the younger generation who have not been exposed to or unaware of IR's works to buy into such hype about ARR.

nilavupriyan
9th August 2005, 10:22 PM
scale,
Come fwd and place "your" arguments...why do you shamelessly piggy back on vijay's data...I'm right now on the move...Once I am back at work, I will try to get the list of movies from those times and would substantiate my claim...(I hate doing this) In any case, Raja's hits in the first 5 years is much...much more than arr's hits in a decade of his stay in IFM.

PS: I really enjoy good works of arr, and hate foul mouthing him... whom/what i hate are those imbeciles who, to project arr as the best MD, deride Raja.

Obviously he has more songs than ARR in a decade and the reason is IR wanted to make quick money since he was living on the platform. But ARR did not have to do that. But as far as the quality of hits is concerned, ARR is far far more superior than IR.

PS: We are not deriding IR but only trying to prove to those IR fans who does not accept ARR a powerful force in IFM.

ARR IS AN OCEAN OTHERS ARE A DROP.

what do u define by quality here.....usage of electric guitar and key board?or what else?

alias
9th August 2005, 10:31 PM
What I mean by quality of hits, hits like Agni Natchitram, Sindhu Bharavi, Chinna Thambi. Only handful given by IR and the rest fall in junk yard. But ARR songs have always given gems except few like Parasuram. Thats what I call quality.

And kr about ARR paling, I know IR and his fans are dreaming that right after Roja but dudes, it has been 15 years and ARR is still going strong and will be stronger (if God Wills).

nilavupriyan
9th August 2005, 10:51 PM
What I mean by quality of hits, hits like Agni Natchitram, Sindhu Bharavi, Chinna Thambi. Only handful given by IR and the rest fall in junk yard. But ARR songs have always given gems except few like Parasuram. Thats what I call quality.

And kr about ARR paling, I know IR and his fans are dreaming that right after Roja but dudes, it has been 15 years and ARR is still going strong and will be stronger (if God Wills).

i dont know what did u find special in agni natchatram....but anyway do u know where ilayaraja proved his class..........
1)hey raam

2)nizhalgal(sujatha mentioned a song in this album is equal to a symphony)

3)sindhu bairavi-as u mentioned

4)many mohan films-because he finished his doctrate with honours at philharmonic studio at that time and he experimented a lot with guitar at that time

5)thiruvaasagam

u all mention a.r.r songs are of good quality again and again.i ask what do u find special in them as quality.answer that.musically answer me what do u find as quality in a.r.r songs

MADDY
9th August 2005, 10:56 PM
hey this is a sincere request to ARR fans, i think it is too much to ask for ARR's respect in IR's threads and to ask for IR's list of hits here(though i have done the same mistake b4)......i think we shuld just read thru IR's forums and if there is anything derogatory abt ARR(which u'll find a lot here), then react....otherwise just enjoy their posts and even if u post abt. IR then dunt even bring shades of ARR in it......i think it is the only way to avoid ARR-IR fights.......i think ARR fans shuld not post here....this is Pakistan for us :) .......

njv
9th August 2005, 11:22 PM
Maddy

I have been requesting you guys to do this for a while. Just keep quite. I have been doing this in both IR and ARR forums, because I dont know much about music to technically analyze IR/ARR work and come up with any conclusion.

What you guys are discussing here is based on the "feeling" you get from listening to differnt music. Feelings wont be the same for everyone. Like IR mentioned once, music depends on listener's ears. I gave TIS to my sister and after first listening she returned to me. She didnt like at all, where as I am hearing atleast twice a day. So even sisters and brothers have difference of opinion, so its not uncommon to bash IR in ARR thread or ARR in IR thread. Just leave it alone and enjoy music.

kr
9th August 2005, 11:29 PM
alias:

I have not written anything about ARR paling in my post....I was just reacting to your comments.

If you had not grown up with IR's music, it may be difficult fro you to understand why ARR's hype doesnt measure up to the excellence which we had the fortune to grow accustomed to with IR's music.

All I can decipher from your and your ilk's hype and ramblings is ignorance.

MADDY
9th August 2005, 11:40 PM
kr, u know ARR fans did not grow up in IR's era then how do u xpect us to understand those feelings???? and y is it that only ppl. in ur era are only gr8 and things that u grew up with r only gr8???pls sir ARR has modified the thinking of a entire genration of youth in my time.......IR is the man who changed the face of TN in ur times....

(i reacted here as there was comment by kr abt ARR music hype :D )

Scale
10th August 2005, 12:06 AM
we shuld just read thru IR's forums and if there is anything derogatory abt ARR(which u'll find a lot here), then react....otherwise just enjoy their posts and even if u post abt. .......


....otherwise we(on behalf of every ardent ARR fan here) are just enjoying their posts. (Otherwise..) Engalukku IR meedhu irukkum mariyadhaiyum, avarudaiya ulaippin munnetramum (MXpress,TIS) varai viyappadaiya seithirukkirathu.

njv! thanks for that post and we (ARR fans) are very proud to find a hubber (IR Fan) matching with the mentality of ARR fans.

vijayr
10th August 2005, 12:07 AM
"If you had not grown up with IR's music, it may be difficult fro you to understand why ARR's hype doesnt measure up to the excellence which we had the fortune to grow accustomed to with IR's music. "

kr, replace IR with MSV and ARR with IR in the above comment. Thats what some MSV fans could tell you in your face. So if ARR fans are "ignorant" of IR's greatness so do some IR fans(like you) who might be ignorant of MSV or GR's greatness, in calling IR the greatest.

"It may be possible for people from the North or the younger generation who have not been exposed to or unaware of IR's works to buy into such hype about ARR."

why should they "buy into the hype" or be forced to buy into the hype? No one can force the audience to buy the CDs.Rahman was a nobody in North before Rangeela. He let his music do the talking and succeeded in crossing beyond the Vindhyas which his predecessor wasnt successful at despite several attempts. Rangeela was a hit because the songs were good, period. Rahman succeeded in spite of the strong anti-south bias that exist in Mumbai towards acknowledging talent from South. That is an achievment in itself.

Scale
10th August 2005, 12:13 AM
"If you had not grown up with IR's music, it may be difficult fro you to understand why ARR's hype doesnt measure up to the excellence which we had the fortune to grow accustomed to with IR's music. "

kr, replace IR with MSV and ARR with IR in the above comment. Thats what some MSV fans could tell you in your face. So if ARR fans are "ignorant" of IR's greatness so do some IR fans(like you) who might be ignorant of MSV or GR's greatness, in calling IR the greatest. .

nichayamagha Ithai votthukkave maatargal. This is what the exact problem to them.... naangalum MSV padalgalai pala kettirukkirom enbaargal.



"It may be possible for people from the North or the younger generation who have not been exposed to or unaware of IR's works to buy into such hype about ARR."

why should they "buy into the hype" or be forced to buy into the hype? No one can force the audience to buy the CDs.Rahman was a nobody in North before Rangeela. He let his music do the talking and succeeded in crossing beyond the Vindhyas which his predecessor wasnt successful at despite several attempts. Rangeela was a hit because the songs were good, period. Rahman succeeded in spite of the strong anti-south bias that exist in Mumbai towards acknowledging talent from South. That is an achievment in itself.

:clap:

kr
10th August 2005, 12:25 AM
Maddy:

If one has to make rational,objective comparisons, then one needs to be aware of both the subjects/objects you are comparing. And if you have stated, you are unaware of IR's accomplishments, in my opinion it makes objective comparisons difficult.

Unlike the newer generation - who may not have exposure to IR's accomplishments, for us who grew up with IR's music - we have awareness of both his music and ARR's music. And hence, based on that knowledge is my statement that in my opinion, IR's music is much more accomplished than the hype of ARR's music.

Those are my opinions. Unlike me, you and posters like alias may feel that because you belong to the newer generation, you know that ARR is better than all and he has redefined music etc. While those are your opinions, from my perspective those have no rational or objective underpinnings.

nilavupriyan
10th August 2005, 12:30 AM
Maddy:

If one has to make rational,objective comparisons, then one needs to be aware of both the subjects/objects you are comparing. And if you have stated, you are unaware of IR's accomplishments, in my opinion it makes objective comparisons difficult.

Unlike the newer generation - who may not have exposure to IR's accomplishments, for us who grew up with IR's music - we have awareness of both his music and ARR's music. And hence, based on that knowledge is my statement that in my opinion, IR's music is much more accomplished than the hype of ARR's music.

Those are my opinions. Unlike me, you and posters like alias may feel that because you belong to the newer generation, you know that ARR is better than all and he has redefined music etc. While those are your opinions, from my perspective those have no rational or objective underpinnings.

well said

kr
10th August 2005, 12:34 AM
vijayr:

I agree that I do not know as much about MSV's music or GR's music but you dont see me going bashing all over the place that IR is greater than MSV. I make my choices based on my individual tastes and to me IR's music is ultimate.

With regard to judging quality by CD sales - I have responded to your posts on this before - being a professional marketer for the past 20+ years, I strongly believe that consumer preferences are shaped by so many different factors. If you want to believe that is the only indiocator of someones quality, it is your prerogorative. To me it doesnt hold any water. Doesnt prove anything. I can show you so many examples of products that are not the best interms of quality being market leaders.

vijayr
10th August 2005, 04:09 AM
"If you want to believe that is the only indicator of someones quality, it is your prerogorative. To me it doesnt hold any water. Doesnt prove anything. I can show you so many examples of products that are not the best interms of quality being market leaders.
"

That is not the only indicator but that is one of the main indicators. And in fact in another thread the number of "hit" albums given by IR is being used as a main parameter in arguments.Check it out here
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewlite.php?t=4256

I just wanted to point out to you that Rahman isnt all hype. If you think so, same could be applied to IR too as compared to his predecessors. Hype plays a part no doubt, but no one can be the market leader for 13 years based on hype alone, especially with an audience present nationwide(and abroad too) and not restricted to just TN or Andhra.

baroque
10th August 2005, 05:09 AM
Kr wrote
" I agree that I do not know as much about MSV's music or GR's music but you dont see me going bashing all over the place that IR is greater than MSV. I make my choices based on my individual tastes and to me IR's music is ultimate."
I concur!!!! IR is The Greatest musical Genius of this Era!!!

rprasad
10th August 2005, 06:01 AM
Guys, Lets not start a IR vs ARR fight here. Just to reassure neither IR nor ARR is just hype. Both are extremly talented music directors of their generation and have proved it. Its just not possible to compare them since both are vastly different in various ways and on top of it represent different generations as far as music taste is concerned. Everyone has their own opinions but its just that . Infact for me too IR is the greatest composer . But that does not mean ARR is just hype. He is an extremly talented music director who has taken film music to a new level with technology and sound and he has proved it as well in India and abroad. So lets respect that. But he is still in his prime and has a lot of years ahead of him. As far as MSV and IR are concerned, again different generations difficult to compare.However they do share some common traits as far as style of composing and being prolific in nature. But according to me IR brought in more dimensions to film music( i am not talking about hits or classic songs here) than MSV did. Again this might be due to the different times, the kind of films along with technology available, during which they composed when in their prime. I hope nobody starts a MSV vs IR war here. I respect MSV a lot and he was a genius in his own way. Again all this is just my opinion.

kr
10th August 2005, 07:34 AM
Vijayr:

Just because you site a thread where someone talks about IR hits does not validate the fact that hits are the only reflectors of quality. As you probably would have noticed, I woud not, in that thread or others, use that arguement to support my liking for IR's music. There is a lot of demographic and psychographic factors that shapes and consumer preferences. If you are really inquisitive and analytical, you can trace it.

With regard to IR - I disagree that he was built up hype. Unlike ARR who came into the TFM under a big brand like Manirathnam and hyped up by KB, MR, GV and Bharatiraja - all with axw to grind against IR - IR started his TFM days humbly scoring for an unknown Devaraj Mohan movie - a village based movie when that was not in vogue. Unlike the 90's with most owning a music syste themselves, IR grew up in a time where a lot of his popular songs were banned by AIR not giving listeners a fair chance (Vangonna, Sorgam Madhuvile, Kinnathil Then Eduthu), However, people still lsietned to them either thru' SriLanka radio stations and record played on roadsides.

I dont think anyone annointed IR with all the accolades like they have done for ARR until IR proved it. Even today, if one someone compares output to output objectively, IR would be a clear winner in terms of accomplishments. Thats why it is my contention that when all the dust of the hype and other biases settle, years from now peopel will objectively look at the output from these composers and it is my opinion that IR will prevail.

Until then probably we will not see eye to eye on these issues. I am not objecting to contrary views as they are irrelevant to how I feel but I am just registering my opinion in support of IR.

Jacky
10th August 2005, 08:29 AM
[tscii:5905881b54]"I dont think anyone annointed IR with all the accolades like they have done for ARR until IR proved it. "

Know the facts before talking! ARR faced the most hostile environment and even MR accepted it as a culture shock. MR was an unknown quantity in the north whatever hype ARR would've benefited should be just limited to TN. If roja was a hit in north it has nothing to with the hype created KB, MR as they were all unknown quantities in the north!
btw, do you believe the whole TN market would flock to buy a cassette of an unknown MD just because it has a MR label? Come on! That's wishful thinking that too 13 years back!!
And It was only after 2 years BR called ARR for Kizhakku semayiley not that he landed straight in BR's arms from the cradle.

“Even today, if one someone compares output to output objectively, IR would be a clear winner in terms of accomplishments"

Certainly not! I don’t think IR can give a Dilse, Taal, Laagan, Rangeela, Zubieda, Yuva or Rising. I know ARR can’t give rustic folk songs like IR. There's nothing to generalize and if you still do you must look at a broader perspective.
Infact for the friendship song Chahey pandit ho (Ramar aanalum) in Heyram IR was quite happy to keep predominant Tamil flavor though the song involved a Muslim, Hindu and a Sindhi. ARR would've shown variations. Consistency is also very important, arachai mavai thirupi thirupi araikathila enna perumai? Even for monumental TIS he has recycled Sempoovey tune.
Even IR has his limitations so don't make sweeping statements from some corner of your mind as though IR is 99.99% perfect and everyone else is crap.
[/tscii:5905881b54]

nkv
10th August 2005, 10:30 AM
[tscii:8a527c04a3]"I don’t think IR can give a Dilse, Taal, Laagan, Rangeela, Zubieda, Yuva or Rising."

And you say all these are greats.. I think ARR gave better music in Roja, Maymatham, and even in Uzhavan.. All the above are pre-hyped products due to their banner and directors, probably Rangeela would be an exception..

Now can ARR score like an Agininatchathiram, Geethanjali, Anjali, Punnagai Mannan, Sindhu Bhairavi, Chinnathambi, Karagattakkaran (see the range of movies-all different style) WITHOUT meditating inside the studio, in front of the computers and mixers?? Probably not..

Boss, can you point out a single 'sensational' hit of ARR after Alaipayuthey (in 2000)?? 'Boys' was an utter crap, they doesnt fall under the category of a 'SONG'.

Nowadays, Vidyasagar scores much better music than ARR. But since nobody is there to hype him or promote him, he is not that 'famous'.. [/tscii:8a527c04a3]

Scale
10th August 2005, 11:39 AM
[tscii:dadafadd97]"I don’t think IR can give a Dilse, Taal, Laagan, Rangeela, Zubieda, Yuva or Rising."

Dont you see all the above are hindi films!. Were all these hyped? unga karpanaikku oru alave illaya!.



And you say all these are greats.. I think ARR gave better music in Roja, Maymatham, and even in Uzhavan.. All the above are pre-hyped products due to their banner and directors, probably Rangeela would be an exception..

Now can ARR score like an Agininatchathiram, Geethanjali, Anjali, Punnagai Mannan, Sindhu Bhairavi, Chinnathambi, Karagattakkaran (see the range of movies-all different style) WITHOUT meditating inside the studio, in front of the computers and mixers?? Probably not.. "

Have you listened to KC, Sangamam, Indra, 1947 Earth?. Thanks for your final judgement on AN,G,Anjali (whole list,ah! range of movies)..... are much better than Dilse,Taal,Lagaan.... :lol:



Boss, can you point out a single 'sensational' hit of ARR after Alaipayuthey (in 2000)?? 'Boys' was an utter crap, they doesnt fall under the category of a 'SONG'.

Nowadays, Vidyasagar scores much better music than ARR. But since nobody is there to hype him or promote him, he is not that 'famous'.. [/tscii:dadafadd97]

'Boys' was an utter crap,

Nowadays, Vidyasagar scores much better music than ARR - True, Do you know his hulchul a BIG blockbuster in hindi & his Gilli was much better than Boys and other ARR latest movies.

-Keep dreaming nkv.

jaiganes
10th August 2005, 11:47 AM
Good! we are back to the happy old days again!!!
Keep up the good work Music Fans and analysts!!!
Both IR and ARR would be ashamed of having fans like you all!
Dont you folks get tired of bashing someone? Try posting objective criticisms.

As regards to Vijayr's points on duds of IR , it has been beaten to death and I see no point in raising it again in this thread which is meant only to discuss criticisms of TIS and not entire discography of Ilaiya Raja.

vijayr
10th August 2005, 12:36 PM
jaiganes, I was just responding to a particular post by kr. This discussion wasnt initiated by me.

kr, if you really think Rahman is just hype and little else, so be it. Its not Rahman's loss.Its naive to think that someone can be at the top for 13 years just due to hype.This is an argument borne more out of jealousy/envy than any objective or technical analysis :-)

jaiganes
10th August 2005, 12:42 PM
vijay!
i wasn't indicating that u had started the discussion, i was just making a point that the waters have become more muddled and all kind of statements will be made and if you get into it, we will be going through the same arguments which we went through earlier.
We need your analysis on music alone and not on statistics vijay.

Please do not respond to half baked statistics and save your breath and intellect for something better than the mudslinging war that has just begun.

jaiganes
10th August 2005, 12:45 PM
We need your analysis on music alone and not on statistics vijay.

What i really meant was that your sense of music appreciation is more enjoyable and uplifting compared to the controversial task of detailing commercial outcome of a film album.
Please do not mistake me for making this statement.

alwarpet_andavan
10th August 2005, 01:38 PM
vijayr:

I make my choices based on my individual tastes and to me IR's music is ultimate.

With regard to judging quality by CD sales - I have responded to your posts on this before - being a professional marketer for the past 20+ years, I strongly believe that consumer preferences are shaped by so many different factors. If you want to believe that is the only indiocator of someones quality, it is your prerogorative. To me it doesnt hold any water. Doesnt prove anything. I can show you so many examples of products that are not the best interms of quality being market leaders.
Oru vasagam sonnalum thiruvasagam
Well said :clap: :thumbsup: :clap:

alwarpet_andavan
10th August 2005, 01:42 PM
Even for monumental TIS he has recycled Sempoovey tune.

Raagathukkum paattukkum irukkara vidhyasathai mudhalla therinjukkonga saar.......

alwarpet_andavan
10th August 2005, 01:43 PM
Vijayr:
Just because you site a thread where someone talks about IR hits does not validate the fact that hits are the only reflectors of quality. As you probably would have noticed, I woud not, in that thread or others, use that arguement to support my liking for IR's music. There is a lot of demographic and psychographic factors that shapes and consumer preferences.
:thumbsup: you took the words out of my mouth....

vijayr
10th August 2005, 02:04 PM
what do the above statements of kr prove? Nothing. Its just his opinion, a prejudiced one and little else. Of course for harcore IR fan(atic)s it would be thiruvasagam or "jalra"vasagam :-)

thumburu
10th August 2005, 02:09 PM
"Know the facts before talking! ARR faced the most hostile environment and even MR accepted it as a culture shock. MR was an unknown quantity in the north whatever hype ARR would've benefited should be just limited to TN. If roja was a hit in north it has nothing to with the hype created KB, MR as they were all unknown quantities in the north! " -
Hello Jacky first you check your facts. MR 's culture shock was about the manner in which ARR worked as MR was by that time used to Raja's way of working.
"MR was an unknown quantity in the north " - No way . His Nayagan was already a rage in north and they remade as "Velunayagan" and there was already a "Dayavan" which came much before roja. I was in Bombay and I happened to watch the Hindi dubbed version of Anjali. MR was the only Tamil director whose most movies were dubbed and released in Hindi. Iam talking about preroja period. Ofcourse with passing time, I agree that his clout in the north increased.

vijayr
10th August 2005, 02:12 PM
If his "Nayagan" was really a rage up north( a false claim, no one in North cares much about a Tamil film) then IR's Nayagan songs or his dubbed Anjali songs should have been a big hit in Mumbai. But they were'nt.

thumburu
10th August 2005, 02:16 PM
" Even for monumental TIS he has recycled Sempoovey tune. " - Now according to Jacky every suddhadhanyasi tune is a recycled version of sempoove

rajdes
10th August 2005, 02:26 PM
Yeah, vijay is right. ARR conquered the north - IR didnt and that means a blank in IR's resume - no matter what his other accomplishments are.(While the first statement is Vijay's, the second part is inference of ARR fans deriving from and taking advantage of vijays statement - I am sure vijay doesnt intend to say that IR is inferior to ARR just because of this reason)

Indha avinju pona logic padiye nammalum sollalam as follows:

Same way, IR took Andhra by storm - MSV didnt - though he had sporadic hits there so MSV is inferior to IR in that sense :-)
Thankfully, no IR fan has ever degraded to that level. And mind you, we have had some really stupid and mindless specimens belonging to this category over the years here.





Ada pongappa pozhaippa paarka !

rajdes
10th August 2005, 02:27 PM
Yeah, vijay is right. ARR conquered the north - IR didnt and that means a blank in IR's resume - no matter what his other accomplishments are.(While the first statement is Vijay's, the second part is inference of ARR fans deriving from and taking advantage of vijays statement)

Indha avinju pona logic padiye nammalum sollalam as follows:

Same way, IR took Andhra by storm - MSV didnt - though he had sporadic hits there so MSV is inferior to IR in that sense :-)

Thankfully, no IR fan - and we have had some really stupid and fanatic nut cases of this variety in this forum - has ever stooped to this kind of warped logic yet. Illaina, anavasiyama MSV mandaium urundirukkum inge.


Ada pongappa pozhaippa paarka !

alwarpet_andavan
10th August 2005, 02:35 PM
what do the above statements of kr prove? Nothing. Its just his opinion, a prejudiced one and little else. Of course for harcore IR fan(atic)s it would be thiruvasagam or "jalra"vasagam :-)
Vijay,
I totally agree that its his opinion which also happens to concur with mine. Aren't forums all about sharing opinions? I didn't mean to deride or abuse anyone by applauding kr.
That said, i'm not anti-ARR and i do like his music. I don't believe that he ia all hype and no substance. My fav ARR's Hindi work is Tehzeeb, which didn't exactly set the cash registers ringing (i think). Let the producers worry about commercial success, i'll listen to what i like, be it Tehzeeb, Thiruvasagam or whatever. What i made out from kr's posts were that he (and i) don't hold # of hits or other commercially and popularly measured yardsticks as the primary determinant when forming opinions about music. I don't look over my shoulder to see if someone else likes what i like and then decide to go ahead and shout to the world that i like 'a' particular piece of music. If i like it, i like it and if the whole of India also likes it, its a bonus and if i'm alone, so be it, no loss there.

And when you talked about kr's opinion being prejudiced, that can be said of anyone from your camp too, can't it? :)
For example, someone had questioned IR's motives on making TIO and another said it was recycled stuff etc.......

alwarpet_andavan
10th August 2005, 02:42 PM
If his "Nayagan" was really a rage up north( a false claim, no one in North cares much about a Tamil film) then IR's Nayagan songs or his dubbed Anjali songs should have been a big hit in Mumbai. But they were'nt.
Vijay
1. thumburu was just responding to the claim that MR was an unknown quantity in the North
2. I have seen people in Mumbai and Delhi refer to Nayagan and Anjali (to a little extent) as great works by Mani Sir. Yes, they might not have been rages during the times, but even a little recognition is an acheivement in the intolerant north :)

Jacky
10th August 2005, 03:34 PM
@ Thumburu, MR's thalpathy was dubbed too as Dalpathi before roja but he was certainly not a rage. Consider this WRT to hype factor Kr was claiming. He wasn't launched by subhash ghai to benefit from the director's hype!


@Alwarpet andavan, orey ragathula irukara pattellam vithayasama illaya sir? Why does it have to sound so obvious to seempoovey, appadi irukira verai recycle than. I don't want to argue further if you don't accept. Btw, if he recycles sempoove for any of his film projects I won't care to mention.

alwarpet_andavan
10th August 2005, 03:47 PM
@Alwarpet andavan, orey ragathula irukara pattellam vithayasama illaya sir? Why does it have to sound so obvious to seempoovey, appadi irukira verai recycle than. I don't want to argue further if you don't accept. Btw, if he recycles sempoove for any of his film projects I won't care to mention.
Whether i accept what you said or not, please accept the fact that ALL MD's including ARR have used the same Raaga in more than one song. Oru Indian song compose pannina, invariably it will fall into one or more existing Raagas. To confuse that with recycling is what i objected to. Just to venerate one composer, please do not degrade another or his work (TIO, of all the works!) baselessly. Some IR fans have done it too (i have done it too but i'll try not to do it, going forward), and i don't subscribe to that view. However, two wrongs don't make a right.

Jacky
10th August 2005, 04:09 PM
Not a baseless argument sir.
Even in sudhadhanyasi sempoove is different from Manjolai kilithano - kizhakey pogum rail. In this case it's more of a recycle than a variant.
I'm not going out of the way degrade IR, infact my first post was quite after a pile was built.

thumburu
10th August 2005, 04:28 PM
orey ragathula irukara pattellam vithayasama illaya sir? - irukkum, but there are also similarities and that is how a music layman like me is able to idntify raagas by pattern matching and not strictly by swaras. In the case u have cited, the similarity is only in the raga used and definitely not a recycle.
Again, the claim that MR was recognized even before roja is by my personal experience , observation at Mumbai. Even before roja, his Agni was remade as Vansh which was a tepid hit. The reach of a movie need not be ONLY thru songs. They dubbed nayagan as Velunaygan and released it even after the remake Dayavan bombed at BO. That showed the awe Bollywood had for MR.Roja was only ARR's ticket to north and for Mani it reiterated his position as an ace director. If many of u can recollect, around 1990, many southies like dir priyadharshan, revathy, ramgopal verma[I saw the Hindi dubbed version of Shiva which was a hit there] , nagarjuna, venkatesh made a beeline to bollywood and how many succeeded is history

rajasaranam
10th August 2005, 06:39 PM
The time was ripe IR was just making good in bollywood with his dubbed movies MR was creating waves over there. I still remember 'Appu raja' songs being played over and again in many shops in delhi during a visit to my uncles place. 'yeh to bana apna' and 'Raaja naam mera' were big hits. This was late eighties and early nineties. around this time only IR was known as a big MD from South just about to conquer the nation with his music. around this time only Anand milind lifted umpteen songs of Raja and making him more famous. There was a cover story about Raja in FilmFare...and his tunes being lifted left and right, they questioned why not Raja himself get into bollywood But alas! the great divide happened between MR-IR and ARR took over from where IR left....

nilavupriyan
10th August 2005, 07:04 PM
The time was ripe IR was just making good in bollywood with his dubbed movies MR was creating waves over there. I still remember 'Appu raja' songs being played over and again in many shops in delhi during a visit to my uncles place. 'yeh to bana apna' and 'Raaja naam mera' were big hits. This was late eighties and early nineties. around this time only IR was known as a big MD from South just about to conquer the nation with his music. around this time only Anand milind lifted umpteen songs of Raja and making him more famous. There was a cover story about Raja in FilmFare...and his tunes being lifted left and right, they questioned why not Raja himself get into bollywood But alas! the great divide happened between MR-IR and ARR took over from where IR left....

anu malik copied many tunes of raja and got credits.in virasat he lifted directly and said thats his tune.rediculous :twisted: :evil:

kr
10th August 2005, 08:07 PM
vijayr:

Just like you were responding to my posting, I was responding to an IR-insulting post by alias.

Listen, for you ARR staying for 13 years might be a reflector of his quality. My opinions are different. (People like Karuananidhi, MGR, Jayalalitha, Indira Gandhi have had long lasting fan following - doesnt mean that they are necessarily quality politicians or leaders or even the best alternatives out there. They were just the most popular - they had the most awareness - they were most promoted etc.)

Where you and I differ is that you try to immediately brand those opinions that does not agree with yours as fanatical or "jalra"vasagam. Unlike your emotional outbursts, I am more analytical and rational and I see the comparison between IR and ARR so differently than yours.

As alwarpet andavan stated it really doesnt matter or influence my buying behavior what you or anyone else think. Why do you have to brand someone else's opinion as inferior to others. You state your opinion. I'll state mine. They both are just that - opinions based on our demographics, pyschographics - attitudes, beliefs, influences etc. There is no right or wrong here - Mine is not superior to yours or vice versa.

I hope you can have tolerance to another's opinion which does not agree with yours without such emotional outbursts.

alias
10th August 2005, 10:06 PM
Maddy, obviously we cannot expect any respect from IR fans as you said except njv and aa. That clearly show how these guys are singing their lost glory.

And coming to nilavupriyan, that he proved class apart from Agni Nat(even thought u do not think it is a class album), Hey Ram (man what a choice) a poor album except asha song., nizhagal ( i agree but in his golden period), SB (that is a class I agree and i mentioned it), many mohan (sorry not many mohan but some mohan albums like Udaya Githam,Mouna Ragam.Mohan-Soundarajan combo) and TIS (i dont know whether this is a quality which we are talking). I never said IR is without class else I would have said all his albums are crap but there are pre rahman period albums but not after post.

kr, please look into my previous post. I have grown with IR music but do not want to be in league who still says IR is ruling and best when ARR is there.

Rajasarnam, adhu eppadi.. Appu Raja songs were hit in Hindi... Dude, it is not hit , it was an average album in Hindi and IR did not open doors for ARR. It was ARR who open doors for others. If IR composed his songs in Hindi, it was dud. But when someone modified it with north flavour, it was hit. So the credit does not go to IR but to those MD who composed it. If that was the case, Mahadev would have been superhit with songs like Enga Oru pattukaran and other hits of IR (which were remade in Hindi by IR himself). It clearly shows IR lacked and he was fit only for south.

kr, I have no way insulted IR in any of my post unlike u IR fans. So stop blaming me.

vijayr
10th August 2005, 11:26 PM
"Unlike your emotional outbursts, I am more analytical and rational and I see the comparison between IR and ARR so differently than yours. "

funny. I am yet to see any objective/technical analysis from your side to prove that ARR is all hype and IR is all substance, ARR's music lacks quality etc. Its just your prejudiced opinion. And instead of calling it as your opinion/prefernce, you use terms like "analytical" and "rational" that are in no way applicable to your posts. Before you say IR's music has more quality, define "quality" first. Quality itself is subjective. People look for different things in music. I fail to understand how calling ARR as all hype makes yours an "analytical" perspective :-)
Even most IR fans wont agree with you on this.

"And when you talked about kr's opinion being prejudiced, that can be said of anyone from your camp too, can't it?"

alwarpet andavan, I dont belong to any camp. Whenever I se "adaavadi" arguments from either camp I voice my opinions. kr was making one such comment-that ARR was all hype. Thats what I meant by prejudice. I told him that I could say the same about IR IF I wanted to. But I wont, because I realize what IR has contributed to TFM. Unfortunately kr doesnt realize Rahman's contribution.

" I have seen people in Mumbai and Delhi refer to Nayagan and Anjali (to a little extent) as great works by Mani Sir. Yes, they might not have been rages during the times, but even a little recognition is an acheivement in the intolerant north"

If so, then the songs must have been a rage too, isnt it? Thats the argument kr was throwing out, saying that MR's stamp/hype is what helped ARR sell cassettes, which was absurd. If thats what helped Roja become a hit in the North then why did'nt it help IR? AFAIK, Nayagan was a hit only in the south. Thats why they remade it in Hindi. Any Tamil film has no audience up North. Only a few Tamil speaking members in Mumbai would watch Tamil films. The rest dont understand the language. Mani was popular down south, but not so much in theNorth. Roja's success musically, had nothing much to do with Mani being a household name up north or his hype. It had mostly to do with Rahman's music. And Shankar was a nobody before Gentleman, even in TN. The music obviously helped Gentleman.

rprasad
10th August 2005, 11:57 PM
Guys,

Lets be respectful of each others opinions here. we are all here to express our opinions in this forum. Everyone has their own prejudices built in their opinions.
Anyway I just wanted to express my opinion, according to me IR's contribution is not just composing super hit Tamil songs or Telugu songs it goes beyond that. One should look at his contribution to music without getting into whether his songs were popular or not in North or south. As i mentioned in my earlier post he has brought in so many dimensions to film music and fusion music as well. He is just not another music director who gives hits in film songs. He is a complete package who has the talent to do anything in music. Now this is just my analysis of IR's talent. I am not going to compare with ARR due to the reasons i mentioned already in my earlier post. ARR still has many years ahead of him, who knows what levels he can reach. Its too early to analyze him now. anyway thats what i feel.

rajasaranam
11th August 2005, 12:08 AM
Vijayr,

Bharathiraja was a nobody before 16 vayathinilae
Bhagyaraj was nobody before Puthiya varpugal
Pandiarajan was nobody before kanniraasi
Maniratnam was nobody before mouna raagam
Rsundarajan was nobody before vaidegi kathirunthaal
Rajasekar, santhan bharathy, Pvasu, Sureshkrishna, RVUdayakumar were nobody nobody nobody nobody before before before before.....

hey comeon everybody has to have some first movie right?!! and before that they will be nobody... If you can quote one 'Shankar' as who was promoted by ARR i can quote 10-20 directors to quote who were promoted by IR's music. The point is this makes no sense atall obviously all the directores had something in them to become Big, apart from IR's or ARR's Music.
This is what is called media hype given for ARR. Well i can say for IR atleast many a Badly made junk movies becoming blockbuster hits cos of music alone but can you quote one movie like that for ARR?
ARR fails to prove apart from big banners,big directors and well made movies. while the History is there to check upon how many movies were elevated to hits due to IR alone. And for this IR deserves the hype he got, while the hype given to ARR is unprecedented.
And i have not seen you voicing your opinions when there are 'Adavadi' arguements from the other camp. IR fans decent'drathaala unga kuppaiya inga mattum kottatheenga vetka padaama angaeyum poi kottunga :wink:

vijayr
11th August 2005, 12:39 AM
"Well i can say for IR atleast many a Badly made junk movies becoming blockbuster hits cos of music alone but can you quote one movie like that for ARR? "

Kaadhalan, for a start. There was nothing in that movie apart from music.

"ARR fails to prove apart from big banners,big directors and well made movies. while the History is there to check upon how many movies were elevated to hits due to IR alone. And for this IR deserves the hype he got, while the hype given to ARR is unprecedented. "

ARR's success beyond the Vindhyas is also unprecedented. MDs before him have unsuccessfully tried to carry their music across. Lagaan and svereal others albums were nationw-die hits. I cant think of single TFM album by IR that was a nationwide hit. Even his TIS isnt selling much outside of TN, in spite of the humongous hype and press coverage it received(connection with the topic of this thread established :-) )

"IR fans decent'drathaala unga kuppaiya inga mattum kottatheenga vetka padaama angaeyum poi kottunga "

IR fans, many of them are decent. Unfortunately there are exceptions like you. And in this thread, I have seen more adaavadi arguments from you and kr than from the so-called ARR camp.

alias
11th August 2005, 12:42 AM
"ARR fails to prove apart from big banners,big directors and well made movies. while the History is there to check upon how many movies were elevated to hits due to IR alone. And for this IR deserves the hype he got, while the hype given to ARR is unprecedented. "

Dude, ARR takes very less movies compared to IR who takes every film from the director who knocks on his door. So obviously the comparision is not right there. But with what
ever the new/small directors he has worked, he has come up with brillant tunes and albums.

En Swasa Katre (new director), Pravin Gandhi (Rakshagan), Rajeev menon (MK, KK), Kadhir (Kadal desam, kadhalar dinam), SJS (New, AA)... do you want to me to keep naming. So the hype surrounding ARR is legtimate.

"UDAL MANNUKU UYIR ARR KU...EDHAI UNARTHA SOLLUVOM IR FANNUKU"

MADDY
11th August 2005, 12:49 AM
i think IR fans calling ARR just a hype is a very sad thing.......then how did this hype survive for 13 yrs???y shuld ppl. hype ARR???moreover IR's hardcore supporters/conservaives of TN/opinion makers like subbudu/media persons like madan were all totally behind IR so i dunt know where did ARR get the hype from????

it just beats me guys y u wanna put down ARR to praise IR????IR is gr8, i accept it but wats the problem in u guys just leaving out ARR while u praise IR???j\pathetic prejudice....... :cry:

ARR fans pls stop praising our guru here...this is not the place as u guys shuld have known by now.....also pls do not ask IR-fans any question abt his music/no. of hits/popularity in north........see u guys praise ARR with 1 word and he gets bashed with 100 unnecessary words....it really pains my heart to see ARR put down for anyone.......

TISK
11th August 2005, 01:36 AM
'yellaarum avanga, avanga veettukkup pOyi samththaa saappittuttu thoongunga, paakkalaam'

' nalla pillaingathaanE? sonnaa kEkkaNum!'

:-)

End it people!
Have the heart to accept that the two guys of whom we are all talking here are....way....above us in talents and leave them alone to do their jobs!!

YIA!!

rajasaranam
11th August 2005, 01:40 AM
Kaadhalan, for a start. There was nothing in that movie apart from music.

IR fans, many of them are decent. Unfortunately there are exceptions like you. And in this thread, I have seen more adaavadi arguments from you and kr than from the so-called ARR camp.

Kaadhalan had no Nagma no PrabhuDeva no Shankar and no KTKunjumon... ok next
Appa ippavavathu many of IR fans decentnnu othukiteengale apart from myself and kr thanks :twisted:

kr
11th August 2005, 02:12 AM
vijayr:

I am not going to respond to every detail as it is a useless exercise since you and I dont see the world when it comes to IR with the same glasses.

But I want to correct something you have ascribed to me incorrectly. I have never stated that ARR is all hype, IR is the only substance and ARR songs have no quality. As an evidence all you have to do is go and read my postings. What I stated was that in my opinion the hype of ARR' songs, accomplishments etc. do not match the output generated thus far. I cannot help you if you can understand that statement to mean ARR is all hype or IR is all substance.

I wish I could share my analysis of IR and ARR but it is not in a written document yet but also the forum message format - I am not sure how easy will it be to post.

Another example of how I would treat analytically what you have stated in an earlier posting about MR being a non-factor in the north is taking into account the evolution of awareness and reputation of MR.

When earlier films of MR was made in Hindi there was little recognition of him but it grew significantly before the making of Roja as could be evidenced by the many "I would like to work with Maniji" comments by leading actors and actresses in a period pre-Roja.

(Not in direct response to your earlier postings about me but an important point about IR and the north that may have been forgotten. IR was aksed to do music for Sadma by Raj Sippy - one of the leading producers but even before the end of the making of the movie IR was disillusioned and did not have nay passion for a career in the North as the style of working did not appeal to him. He had stated that things did not start until late in the day and he felt that it was not disciplined enough for him to feel a passion for wanting to pursue it at that time).

But anyway, my objective here is not to change your mind as to what you or anyone else thinks about IR or ARR. I register my opinions supporting IR when others post in denigration of IR.

I know my opinions are as irrelevant to you as yours are to me interms of enjoying what we prefer to enjoy.

However, if you look at any of my previous postings, you would see that I do not go into ARR forums to state these sort of opinions nor denigrate those who do not agree with my opinions. I know you in your postings would term anyone who like IR's recent albums that you may not like as fanatics and IR jalras etc. And it is funny that you are calling my postings "adavadi"..

rajasaranam
11th August 2005, 02:21 AM
Kr,

Dont get serious in responding to Vijayr dude. Avar summa appappa vanthu sonna jokeayae thirumba thirumba solluvaar. atha padichu namma ellam sirichuttu usupaethinaa thirumbavum athae jokae solluvaar. learn to enjoy his posts :lol:

baroque
11th August 2005, 02:27 AM
[tscii:2154187ef0]People calm down!!
A gift from Classy Ilayaraaja for all of you!!
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/26/s/movie_name.4195/
"oru kunguma chenga......." SPB & Janaki
Enjoy the exquisite early Ilayaraaja song!!!! Enjoy the beautiful tune, fantastic orchestra!!
Listen to the first interlude how melodious, Janaki's humming, soothing raaja's flute and violin amazing amazing!!! Second interlude is very up beat, energetic!!
Even after 30 yrs this song is so fresh!! Absolutely modern & stylish!!
That’s our Ilayaraaja!!! [/tscii:2154187ef0]

vijayr
11th August 2005, 02:41 AM
"Appa ippavavathu many of IR fans decentnnu othukiteengale apart from myself and kr thanks"

I didnt include kr, I said just you were the exception to decent IR fans. Dont try to garner support by putting words in my mouth. kr is far more dignified in his expression.

Since when were Nagma and Prabhudeva superstars? That was Prabhudeva's maiden film as a hero( a very dangerous experiment that would have failed if not for the music)and Shankar's second film. Shankar was just a one-film wonder at that point. No Rahman and Kaadhalan wouldnt have run beyond a week.Kunjumon ceased to exist after a while.


"atha padichu namma ellam sirichuttu usupaethinaa"

I know that your contribution to this DF is just limited to "usuppeththal" and little else :-) Thanks for confirming it. Beyond a point its futile to keep responding to your (usupp)peththals, so I stop here.

"When earlier films of MR was made in Hindi there was little recognition of him but it grew significantly before the making of Roja as could be evidenced by the many "I would like to work with Maniji" comments by leading actors and actresses in a period pre-Roja.
"

kr, Mani didnt have a market in Hindi, period. If a few actors expressed a wish to work with him that might be because they were impressed with him as an artiste after seeing Nayagan. That doesnt translate into mass popularity in the North. Even now, Mani Rathnam has a very limited audience in the North for his movies.He might have had critical acclaim from his peers and actors. But commercially, he wasnt a big name in Bombay. Even his recent Yuva bombed. So saying that Roja became a musical hit in the North due to Manirathnam is getting a little too absurd, espcially when Mani didnt have a single big hit in Hindi until that point.

kr
11th August 2005, 03:06 AM
What I am trying to describe here is brand associations and its influence on consumer behavior. That is why you see brands have celebrity spokepersons - Indian eg: Boost is the secret of my success by Sachin Tendulkar. There Sachin Tendulkar as a brand stands for energy, success for achievements and appeal. These are brand expecatations for Sachin. So when Boost uses Sachin T as its spokesperson, the target audience takes from it that if Sachin uses Boost to get his energy then it would help me too. Similarly MR as a brand had built some expectations - his movies would be hip, have great photography, great music (ironically this expectation of the brand built by IR) etc.. This has influences on how consumers perceptions. So it is not about market or commercial hits, it is about perceptions and expectations.

vijayr
11th August 2005, 03:32 AM
kr, what you say might be applicable to a certain extent within TN, but not quite enough to make an album a big musical hit nationwide. For that to happen, the album should have possessed freshness and a certain unique approach to presenting music which was new to IFM itself, leave alone TFM.And to think of the fact that Roja wasnt even specially composed with a Northie audience in mind. Several big directors before Manirathnam switched from IR to someone else and those MDs didnt last too long. Remember Devendran/Hamsalekha with BR or Rajnikanth with Chandrabose? Why didnt these MDs go on to conquer TN the way Rahman did, although they worked with big banners/names? They had only fleeting success. Same with MaragadhamaNi and KB.

Also Ram Gopal Varma was'nt a very big name before Rangeela in Bombay and he didnt have any brand name associated with him yet. His best movies were to come later.That was truly Rahman's debut in Hindi and he scored straightaway.

alias
11th August 2005, 03:39 AM
Vijayr, endha IR fans konjam vayasu anavanga :-). So that's why they say when u get old, u become more stubborn... So these guys are like "Na Pudhicha muyaluku 3 kal" than ninaipanga... So leave it.

vijayr
11th August 2005, 03:44 AM
Talking of consumers perceptions what appears as hype to you could appear as rightful product promotion to some. There is a thin line between hype and promotion and often it seems blurred. IR having a title like "Maestro" based on his symphony 1 which was'nt even released or heard by anyone in TN, could come across as undeserved praise/accolade or hype to someone. How would you defend that?

hehehewalrus
11th August 2005, 04:55 AM
13 yrs at the top-nu varsham varshama auto-increment pottukinne poraangoooooo, reality mattum vera ennanamo solludhu :D

njv
11th August 2005, 05:20 AM
Talking of consumers perceptions what appears as hype to you could appear as rightful product promotion to some. There is a thin line between hype and promotion and often it seems blurred. IR having a title like "Maestro" based on his symphony 1 which was'nt even released or heard by anyone in TN, could come across as undeserved praise/accolade or hype to someone. How would you defend that?
Maestro was awarded by RPO after conducting symphony 1. Please have some respect for Maestro. I know ppl are bashing ARR here, but dont do the same here and proove that you are one of them.

baroque
11th August 2005, 05:31 AM
Ilayaraaja fans, Please don't engage further!!
Come on, you want to celebrate and enjoy our Ilayaraaja, dhool has featured an exotic song in Ilayaraaja music, they have put up a photo of our Raaja with his Guru!
Ilayaraaja is The Maestro!!
http://www.dhool.com/sotd2/666.html
love, Vinatha

rprasad
11th August 2005, 05:46 AM
Guys,

Its high time we stop this war here. Vijay, Kr has already clarified that he never called ARR all hype not quality. so lets leave that. One thing i will continue to make is that ARR is still young and has ways to go before he can compared to IR . He is just a talented music director who has composed super hit songs in both Hindi and tamil. He may one day reach or even go beyond the level of IR . So

KR, lets not come to any hasty conclusions that ARR's hype has not matched his output. Lets wait . One thing you should understand is that in today's world marketing is everything. ARR just happened to be in his prime during this period and hence his works get a lot of publicity and are marketed very aggressively in all modes of media. Moroever since he has done a lot of hit hindi songs as well , the area of publicity encompasses the entire country and not just TN. Its all about being in the right place at the right time. ARR is at the right place at the right time with talent and work to back it up.
IR in his prime never had these advantages(atleast not to the extent of what we have now) and he also never seriously wanted to get into Hindi music field, which could have got him more publicity. Again the same argument could be attributed to MSV as well when compared to IR's times.
Finally Vijay, IR does not need the symphony or RPO to be considered a Maestro. For me and every genuine music lover would agree i think, IR is a Maestro regardless of symphony. Lets not try to degrade a person of IR's stature just to counter someone else's comments about ARR. Both are great composers so lets leave it at that.

kr
11th August 2005, 06:13 AM
I never say Marketing is bad. I have been doing that for a living for the past 20 years and earn my livelihood marketing brands. It is absolutely critical to create positive perceptions among your target consumers and motivating them to purchase your product or services. Nor am I saying capitalizing on brand associations is bad either. It is a very efficient way of marketing your product.

My point is when you evaluate hits/popularity and based on that argue against the quality of a product/service (here IR albums - that is where this whole thing started a long, long time back) or compare between products/services, be careful in your evaluation. To do a fair job, you need to disassociate so many different effects such as demographics, pyschographics - including attitudes, beliefs, influences, influences of other brand associations etc. That has been my whole point all along.

Another of my favorite point is that consumer preferences are so heterogeneous. The same product/service may appeal to one cluster of people while be so disappealing to a different cluster. These are again shaped by so many different factors. That is why we have democrats, republicans or DMK, ADMK all reacting to a common subject very differently. Hence my low tolerance for trying to castigate opinions that differ from another groups as inferior. They are just different.

kr
11th August 2005, 06:17 AM
Vijayr:

Just to answer a question you asked in your post as to the difference between marketing and hype. The way I differentiate it when I used the term hype does not refer what is done to market a product or an album. The hype was referring to was with regard to when people make statements as evaluations or comparisons.

vijayr
11th August 2005, 06:21 AM
njv, I didnt say that, if you notice my post. I have read comments like that even here in DF. I am asking kr how would he defend that, thats all. I am trying to convey that hype/promotion is all in ones eyes.

vijayr
11th August 2005, 06:34 AM
"The hype was referring to was with regard to when people make statements as evaluations or comparisons."

If you think that way, even the title "IsaigNaani"(or raagadevan or isaiyaraaja or numerous other titles) is hype. I am not sure if Rahman has any title against his name during the opening credits of films. (Isaipuyal or something like that?) I remember seeing just Rahman all the time.

I dont evaluate just based on hits. I will be one of the last persons to do that. But you said,

"consumer preferences are so heterogeneous. The same product/service may appeal to one cluster of people while be so disappealing to a different cluster. "

thats why you should consider giving credit to Rahman for making music that appeals to several different clusters nationwide, breaking language barriers. Not just Hindhi, he has proven adept at adopting Bengali/Rajasthani/Bhojpuri and several other flavors in his music depending on the movie.
If you didnt know who Rahman was, you would have to pinch yourself to believe that a Tamilian actually composed those songs in Swades/Bose/Rising. Totally different feel everytime, merging into the flavor of that particular region the film is based on.
Even rajasaranam had admitted to liking Bose in another thread. I believe he even started a thread for Bose songs sometime back. If that doesnt tell you something, nothing else will :-)

vijayr
11th August 2005, 06:40 AM
Another example of recent "hype" to borrow your terminology - IR announcing that his TIS will live beyond 100 years(and that there will be no more rebirths for him etc. Barathiraja pulled his legs for that comment during the TIS release function)). Why cant he just allow his music to do the talking? I have never heard any other MD say so about their own music. Ironically, IR talks about "blowing one's own trumpet" in several programmes, but he ends up doing it himself.

kr
11th August 2005, 07:32 AM
I would classify IR' statements are promotions. Isaignani is a promotion. I consider those as marketing/promotions.

I see that you have your reasons for being impressed with ARR. Dont be mad at me if I am not because those are not my yardsticks. That doesnt make yours necessarily inferior to mine but just different.

So when I state that I like a particular recent IR album or song, if you try to categorize me as having an inferior preference, it shows ignorance.

That has been my point.

nilavupriyan
11th August 2005, 08:26 AM
Another example of recent "hype" to borrow your terminology - IR announcing that his TIS will live beyond 100 years(and that there will be no more rebirths for him etc. Barathiraja pulled his legs for that comment during the TIS release function)). Why cant he just allow his music to do the talking? I have never heard any other MD say so about their own music. Ironically, IR talks about "blowing one's own trumpet" in several programmes, but he ends up doing it himself.

infact ilayaraja is the most calm person in industry.only in this function i found him talked a bit.

there he didnt talk as a music director......but as a religional persona.to be short.........."bakthi paravasam"

MADDY
11th August 2005, 08:54 AM
nilavu i'm surprised that u havent seen IR talking like this b4......his Diwali interview for 1993/1994 n DD1, his boasting abt Hey ram's music on suntv and the worst was the interview to madan few years back where he really used unneccessary words to describe the current lot of MDs(ARR)......that was indeed a shockeer from IR.....

vijayr
11th August 2005, 09:03 AM
"I would classify IR' statements are promotions"

Under what basis? I have to take it as promotion just because you say so?

"Dont be mad at me if I am not because those are not my yardsticks"

I used your own points -of impressing several heterogeneous clusters-to refute your argument. Sad that you missed it.

"So when I state that I like a particular recent IR album or song, if you try to categorize me as having an inferior preference, it shows ignorance.'

what has that got to do with discussion of hype vs promotion? Nice job trying to change the track here.
Anyways, I never said you have an inferior preference just because you liked some new IR songs. I have always defended only my taste/opinions thats all. To me that particular song might be inferior and I sometimes try to explain why technically, as opposed to how you carry your arguments with just your prejudiced opinions and little else.
What really shows ignorance though is you thinking that Rahman is mostly hype based on your own bizarre yardsticks that have nothing much to do with quality of music as much as it has to do with your own prefernces. You could have just said that you dont like Rahman(whichj is perfectly fine) and saved us all some time and webspace rather than throwing terms like "quality" and pretending to be an objective music analyst.

vijayr
11th August 2005, 09:05 AM
nilavupriyan, he didnt make that comment at the function but in a Kumudam interview and one other press meet which I dont remember.