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kbee
2nd April 2005, 12:26 AM
I am a hard core IR fan. This is a question normally one doesnt ask themselves, but I started wondering what made "Hindi listening" ppl to turn towards IR music.

In case of ARR, we all know that he created a fusion between western and indian and produced the tunes, so far long time for ppl who only listened to indian music (across india), this was a good change and started liking ARR music, but IR didnt bring any western or anything else. IR's folk songs are introduced heavily much in mid to late 80s than early 70s.

So whats special about IRs music that turned our ears towards tamil music?

I am eagarly waiting for answers from music critics.

eden
2nd April 2005, 02:31 AM
"but IR didnt bring any western or anything else" is quite subjective...as some of his early compositions like 'uRavAdum nenjam' had a dose of western classical style orchestration, treated in a way far different from his predecessors (or even northies, with an exception of Salilda, may be)...even `machAnappAththeengaLA' had terrific chords...

And the shift from Hindi snob didn't happen overnight just within a couple of hit folk albums...if anything, Raja won over only those crowd that was previously listening to MGR-Shivaji stuff with those hits...others liked the songs but sceptical about him becoming what he became later on...

The real catch, IMHO, was to happen later, with albums like uRavAdum nenjam, iLamai oonjalAdukiRathu, sigappu rOjAkkaL, azhagE unnai..., avaL appadiththAn, pagalil oru iravu (TN's tea shop / bus music culture started with iLamai oonjal album, again IMHO, which effectively tackled the onslaught of hum kisise kum naheen and the likes)...

I think the whole deal was sealed with ullAsappaRavaigaL...no need to look any further for great music, Raja has by then become the one-stop-shop...with songs like azhagu Ayiram and nAn undhan thAyAga vENdum, why should anyone listen to western or hindi anymore? (For those classical lovers / folk group, there is treat too in germaniyin / dheiveega rAgam etc.) And with albums like nizhalgaL and Johny, there was absolutely no comparisons anymore...

So, answer(s) to your question:
-consistently great scores
-not confining to one genre (folk or western or classical or fusion or any)
-not confining to one style / formula...always going for new trends to be set
-ever willing to experiment / surge ahead of peers with unique, inimitable stuff (RDB commented after listening to kOzhi koovudhu that IR was a decade ahead of them)...how often you get to listen to a path breaker like `ninaivellAm nithya'?

eden
2nd April 2005, 02:45 AM
In comparison (on experimentation on a purely musical perspective), successful MDs like ARR and Vidhyasagar pale...

Agreed ARR enhanced the recording quality / pure western pop techno etc and he has been pretty consistent in `packaging' listenable music for more than a decade...However, compare Roja (or thiruda, thiruda) to any latest album from him, can you notice any big trend change? Nop...

No wonder people who have a fraction of his talent (HJ, YSR, Bharadwaj etc.) but have access to gadgets can manufacture similar scores for a fraction of his charge...

eden
2nd April 2005, 02:49 AM
"In case of ARR, we all know that he created a fusion between western and indian and produced the tunes"....sir, credit kodukka vEndiyadhu Shri G Ramanathan'ukku (ARR's koLLu thAthA:-)) `yAradi nee mOhini' kEttadhuNdA?

kbee
2nd April 2005, 04:30 AM
Eden

Thanks for the reply. I am hoping more people will join this thread, because there is something we all can benefit from this. IR's music made me going to music class at the age of 32 (too late and sometimes i am ashamed of myself sitting next to a 5 year old, but now I have a one on one coach, so i am not worried about anything. the ultimate goal is to understand what IR is trying to convey thru his music) and I am sure this thread will be of educational value for music lovers like me.

I didn know tht G Ramanathan is ARRs's kollu thatha - thanks for the info.

Speaking of RDB complementing IR, one Mr Ashok Sukla (sound engineer for more than 50 hindi movies and few tamil movies, including Oomai Vizhigal) told me that he had close relationship with IR and RDB and IR is always keen on what RDB does and RDB on the other hand is always keen on what IR does and they have great respect for each other.

Thanks again

kr
3rd April 2005, 09:53 PM
For me it was the orchestration. Initially IR used a lot of guitar in his orchestration and then violin & flute. The other thing about IR's songs which are/were unique for me making me such an ardent fan of his was the life in his songs. On hearing his compositions, it really affected my moods personally. The compositions would linger with me through day and night.

Those are the things I found unique with IR and made me such an ardent fan which I am still to experience with other's compositions.

MADDY
4th April 2005, 12:19 AM
IMHO and a lay man's view--IR's music had a very earthy feel and ppl.(villagers) started relating themselves to this kinda music.......that was the most important thing IR did- Hindi music listeners came running to him bcos of this........and moreover he was such a genius that he was bound to be successful......

To mr.eden,
y r u so insecure abt. ARR? U come to ARR forums- u'll hardly find anyone degrading IR cos we know ARR is the best......i dunt think IR's gr8ness is enhanced by insulting ARR......i dunt know, this concept is never understood by even very intelligent IR fans(subbudu).......
u asked wat is the difference bet'n Roja-ARR and Swades-ARR-buddy if u cant see this difference then i dunt think u can see difference bet'n a "sembaruthi chedi and a Aalamaram"......

kbee
4th April 2005, 07:17 PM
Guys, Maddy has a point. You dont have to hurt/degrade someone to praise IR. For IR fans, IR is great for ARR fans ARR great and nothign can change that.

Maddy I really intend to start this thread to educate myself and not to start another IR-ARR war. I appologize (on IR fans behalf) if we hurt your feelings

eden
4th April 2005, 07:22 PM
Digression:
MADDY, I have nothing against ARR and I do enjoy some of his music...the opening post of the thread had some inaccuracies IMHO (sounding like ARR invented fusion)...my posting was just to correct the fact...
End-digression

NagaS
4th April 2005, 07:50 PM
difference bet'n a "sembaruthi chedi and a Aalamaram"......

Cute uvamai maddy - liked it a lot :)

NagaS

vijayr
4th April 2005, 08:06 PM
"In comparison (on experimentation on a purely musical perspective), successful MDs like ARR and Vidhyasagar pale... "

Not true at all. If there is one MD in the last 10 years who has been consistently experimenting its ARR. And he still hasnt stopped. Swades and Bose are wonderful examples. Whether his music has the power to last is another issue(and a subjective one), but he is definitely an experimentalist, album-to-album. IR, beyond his first few years was content to grind the same flour in 90% of his films, reserving novel ideas now and then for a Kamal or a KB/Manirathnam film.

"Agreed ARR enhanced the recording quality / pure western pop techno etc and he has been pretty consistent in `packaging' listenable music for more than a decade...However, compare Roja (or thiruda, thiruda) to any latest album from him, can you notice any big trend change? Nop... "

Once again, disagree. Probably you are basing it just on his TFM albums. Even then KaNgaLaal kaidhu sei struck me as pretty fresh with very novel sandhams. Many ideas in "Boys" were new.

"No wonder people who have a fraction of his talent (HJ, YSR, Bharadwaj etc.) but have access to gadgets can manufacture similar scores for a fraction of his charge...
"

Imitating is easy. Deva imitated IR very well in the early-to-mid 90s. There were many who used to think songs from "Kizhakku karai" and "oru PeN pura"(ANNamalai) were all composed by IR. Even Gangai Amaran gave pretty good stuff in the 80s itself.

And Balabharathi imitated IR so well that his songs sounded more IRish than IR songs themselves :-) in Amaravathi.

YSR and Bharadwaj are nowhere in Rahman's league. Just because a couple of films that they did music for became hits, doesnt mean their music is great :-) Bharadwaj, especially, is a nobody in TFM.

BTW, kbee, ARR didnt create any "fusion". Many people before him have already been there and done that.

MADDY
4th April 2005, 08:42 PM
Thanx NagaS :D ....u just made my day

hey i think it is becoming another ARR-IR war thread.......sorry for my inteference in this thread...i'm always a silent surfer in IR's threads but this time i could not hold back, looking at misconception of ARR.......hey kbee, dunt feel sorry........u have started a very good topic.....

eden
4th April 2005, 09:43 PM
kbee,
"I didn know tht G Ramanathan is ARRs's kollu thatha - thanks for the info. "
adhukkupinnAdi vandha smiley'yaippArkkaliyA? (To me ARR is current, IR prior gen, MSV prior-prior gen - alladhu `thAthA', GR prior-prior-prior gen, adhAvadhu `koLLu thAthA':-))

Music4Ever
4th April 2005, 10:43 PM
"So whats special about IRs music that turned our ears towards tamil music?"

1) Sheer number of majestic, mind-boggling songs.
2) Instrumental in breeding IR-type of music; many MD's imitated and continue to imitate his music. Even ARR songs, sometimes, have interludes or musical bits that sound familiar from some IR number.

One disadvantage (some may call it advantage) is that there were too many IR numbers which were mere convenient or clever tweaks of other numbers, so that the listener would get bored (listening to the same pattern of tokku tokku tokku stuff). Probably this resulted in the emergence of ARR.

IR's songs in about 250 movies was excellent. In the other movies the songs were probably ordinary. In any case, one cannot doubt his genius. All IMO.

Music4Ever
4th April 2005, 10:47 PM
Regarding "Oru peN purA" by Deva, I think it is based on an MSV number that goes "Mannikka mAttAyA un manam irangi". Of course Deva imitated IR, sometimes with stunning results.

MumbaiRamki
5th April 2005, 12:31 AM
In my opnion ,
->If a layman hears mozart and HIS 50 symphonies ,it would appear the same ,even if hears 4-5 times .tHAT DOES NOT TAKE THE CREDIT OUT OF MOZART !!!

->When we sayexperimentation ,we have two kinds ..One is experimentation with different insttruments and sounds and other is do with experimentation in different genre,different musical domains ...
I guess raaja sir did both .

->But for me personally ,raaja songs are something which directlt touch the heart -!!!!

kbee
5th April 2005, 01:27 AM
hey i think it is becoming another ARR-IR war thread

to ease you gusy

http://img135.exs.cx:81/img135/5816/arrfelicitating2lh.gif

rajasaranam
5th April 2005, 03:56 AM
Not true at all. If there is one MD in the last 10 years who has been consistently experimenting its ARR. And he still hasnt stopped. Swades and Bose are wonderful examples. Whether his music has the power to last is another issue(and a subjective one), but he is definitely an experimentalist, album-to-album. IR, beyond his first few years was content to grind the same flour in 90% of his films, reserving novel ideas now and then for a Kamal or a KB/Manirathnam film..

Swades i havent heard but i heard the song 'Aazaadi' and a couple of songs from Bose - its nothing but the same grinder and the same flour. The song Aazaadi has the same BGM from 'Vandhe maatharam' which he did 8 years ago and the interludes are pretty similar to 'Putham pudhu boomi vaendum' which he did 10 years ago and the whole tune is a slight modification of his vandhe mataram!! where is experimentation...
If at all the album had anything to amuse it was the theme music for which i intented to start a separate thread in ARR forums. The bose Theme was excellently done. but this area of themes has been extensively experimented and conquered by IR and he is still experimenting on this.

Arjuna
11th April 2005, 12:09 PM
rajasaranam - go and jump into the well - kinathu thavalai!! U have proved once again that you the biggest clown here!! thanks for all the fun you are providing!! U shuld get the best comedian award!!

Cinefan
11th April 2005, 12:42 PM
rajasaranam - go and jump into the well - kinathu thavalai!! U have proved once again that you the biggest clown here!! thanks for all the fun you are providing!! U shuld get the best comedian award!!

I thought the above words were applicable to you :?

Arjuna
12th April 2005, 01:26 AM
Mr. Cinefan - can u mind ur own business - its between me and rajasaranam!!

rajasaranam
12th April 2005, 02:00 AM
Arjuna,

Thats good you have improved upon your typing skills :lol:
now go and teach to the other cockroaches dwelling in sewage Drain holes :rotfl:

:poke:

kiru
12th April 2005, 06:56 AM
I wish IR had gotten the opportunity to score for this movie. Anybody interested how IR would have handled this, should listen to the vandhE mataram song in siraichalai or to songs in dEsiya geetham (available in musicindiaonline.com).
Still I think ARR had done enough research before going into this project :-) !!!

Cinefan
12th April 2005, 11:25 AM
Mr. Cinefan - can u mind ur own business - its between me and rajasaranam!!

You are posting in a public forum,so any one can respond.

If you want to have a fight with rajasaranam,why not use 'Private messaging'.Then I won't get a chance to respond.

buggle
12th April 2005, 08:05 PM
That's true rajasaranam, ARR assumes people might forget his old collection so he gives old wine in a new bottle all the time..

Arjuna get out of this forum and beg ARR for a change

alias
13th April 2005, 01:56 AM
Rajasarname and Cinefan, Atleast ARR can take his old tune and make it into new but IR is out of luck. His new tunes are complete rehash of the old ones and still no one listens..oh sorry expect 2 of you probably include mumbai ramki.... he is also in charge of supporting IR to lead his life style by donating 40Rs sorry buying 40Rs cassette. So ARR is far far far.. i dont know how many far I need to use but he is far more superior than current IR. God Mumbai xpress. Is Kamal mad? If he has money, why dont he donate it to charity instead of wasting on opening an audio company to market IR songs.

Arjuna
13th April 2005, 02:04 AM
Mr. Buggle can you FOAD!! - go and ask some one if u dont know what FOAD is!!

Rajasaranam - that means I should start with you ;)

Arjuna
13th April 2005, 02:08 AM
Mr.Cine fan - saringa public ;)

Arjuna
13th April 2005, 02:10 AM
Rajasaranam - I plan to make a documentary on Ramana Maharishi in the future - and the first person I would consider casting as Ramana Maharishi is IR only..He looks just like the great Ramana -ditto!! But the music is by ARR ;)

app_engine
13th April 2005, 02:34 AM
Arjuna, your interest on the man in sixties in interesting:-)

rajasaranam
13th April 2005, 02:05 PM
Arjuna,

no mortal like ARR can be allowed to do such injustice to Ramana or Raja let the movie be soundless-thats where Ramana or Raja were/are headed to :)

rajasaranam
13th April 2005, 02:09 PM
Rajasaranam - that means I should start with you ;)

come here there is a crap feast awaiting for you. have your stomach full then ill crush you till you ask 'mercy' :lol:

rajasaranam
13th April 2005, 02:11 PM
.... So ARR is far far far.. i dont know how many far I need to use but he is far .....


use how many ever 'far' you want to, he is that far away from music :D

kalnayak
13th April 2005, 04:06 PM
rajasaranam & Cinefan
Just Ignore

:banghead:

kbee
13th April 2005, 06:35 PM
Okay

I recently joined here because of common interest - Music - speicifically IR music. But I found out that THIS IS NOT THE PLACE. So from all of you

Good Bye

alias
13th April 2005, 08:31 PM
Guys, lets not get into that deeply. talk about music and not about our ones. Please we are here for fun lets not getting into street fight. Cool Arjuna. Let them talk whatever they want to...dont mind since we already know all they have to talk about lost Glory of IR.

alias
13th April 2005, 08:33 PM
.... So ARR is far far far.. i dont know how many far I need to use but he is far .....


use how many ever 'far' you want to, he is that far away from music :D

Sure dude, 8) he is far far away from the music which IR composes. Sing your lost glory. :cry: But sorry the days will not be back for IR. He needs a wheel chair and u can get him one. :lol:

kuma
14th April 2005, 11:06 AM
Before the debates slips to war of words between IR and ARR fans let us set things right by understanding the issue wholistically.

Around 1970’s when Ilaiyaraja was becoming a popular musician, there was a significant technological change that coincided with the changing demographic pattern in Tamil Nadu. It was also around this time a new generation of urbanites was born. This was a generation whose ties with rural areas were beginning to be weakened even though not fully severed. As a result of monetization of agro-economy and the new-found hope in the non-brahmin movement’s promise of upward mobility, the middle castes were attracted from villages to towns. While the generation that migrated to towns and cities had already spent their formative periods in rural areas, the next generation that followed was thoroughly city-bred with village ties still intact. And Ilaiyaraja himself belonged to this generation which is partly rural and partly urban. His experience in the rural milieu blended with his adulthood spent in westernized cities. The sound that his music produced approximated and captured this blend making it appealing to the generation for which he himself stood as a specimen. In this task he was duly aided by the technological development that occurred around that time. Widespread use of tape recorders and gramophone on the one hand, and the extensive reach of radio Ceylon (Sri Lankan broadcasting corporation’s Tamil language broadcast) on the other hand made film-music listening a predominant entertainment form for the ordinary masses. particularly the large scale production and the economic viability of cassette-enabled film-music to acquire excessive geographical mobility taking it to rural areas and even to neighboring states, particularly Kerala, Andhra Pradesh. The broad-basing of the ‘public’ which listened to Ilaiyaraja’s music necessitated textural and structural change in it. On the other hand the flexibility and the heightened fidelity which tape cassettes offered encouraged him to introduce sounds that are irreproducible in the previous forms of storing music, namely gramophone records. This resulted not only in the blending of folk tunes, but also in the incorporation of certain pan-south Indian features in the Tamil film music, since the cassettes made marketability of both songs and films in other regions within south India a possibility.

The general accusation leveled at Ilayaraja’s film-music is the drowning of verbal clarity in the cacophony of sound. Yet this accusation is mild when compared to present day trend in which the visual has taken over auditory -- both it respect to verbal clarity and sound. In the context of Ilayaraja’s music and its relationship film medium, it may be argued that there was certain a kind of sovereignty which film songs enjoyed, although their existence is integrated with films of which they are parts. But in the recent days, with the increasing technicalisation of film-making, film-music is fast losing its autonomy, since we witness the progressive, triumph of visual over auditory. In Ilayaraja’s songs, the songs had their own independent biographies which did not require the authorship of the visual to complete their life stories. People listened to his songs as aural representation of moods and sceneries whose construction were left to the listener’s creativity. Before the advent of satellite TV and cable TV songs were songs for their own intrinsic values, because it was still possible to detach the consumption of songs from the consumption of visuals specific to them. Put in other words, the independent consumption of film-songs was possible because of our not being surrounded by the visual images of these songs as it is the case now. The music director on majority of the occasions was victorious over the movie director in the past. But the communication revolution indexed by the abrupt expansion of satellite, TV, cable TV and the radical expansion of market, both at national and transnational level coupled with the need to seduce the consumer to buy a product, necessitated by stiff competition between products, have fundamentally transformed the very nature of film music in general and undercut the autonomy of film songs as primarily aural experience on the other hand. Living in a ‘society of spectacle’ we are increasingly being deluged of visuals and images; ‘seeing’ has relegated ‘hearing’ to the sideways of cultural experience. An incurable Freudian would have characterised this as a logical outcome, as for him the birth of ego is achieved at the moment of ‘seeing’ which is preceded by moments of hearing, both when the child was in the womb and immediately after its birth. But the same story has a tragic end here in the case of cultural experiences.
In a world dominated by images, every song is a piece of advertisement with a potentially higher seductive value. The success of the movie now depends upon the successful projection of its songs which build pleasure into the movie. The proliferation of music TV channels has brought about this trend. According to the logic of these changed-situations, it is the successful packaging of songs that decides the success of the movie itself. Since TV requires visual representation along with aural, and the appeal of visual is more powerful (as psychologists would have us convinced) than the aural, greater care is taken to make the song as catchy as possible. Because each song along with its visuals in a film has become a powerful advertisement, lots of money is pumped into making songs a visual extravaganza. Till recently songs revolved around the main theme of the movie, now the trend is reversed. It is around songs the theme is built in most film. This is the reason why intricate plots, twisted story lines, dramatic turn around have vanished from the films of recent days, ‘Hum Apke Hai Kaun’, ‘Dilwale Dulhania Le Jayenge’ and ‘Rangeela’ are examples of that kind. Instead of looking at the arrival of light stories without a clearly-defined villain and the advent of fantasy movies from the point of view of the changing worldview of the audience, we have to look at as the product of the political economy of liberalization of Indian market.

The emergence of visual as the dominant representation of the cultural items, be it cinema or shoes, soaps or any thing that we see in TV advertisement, has damaged the autonomy of auditory, be it a song, or voice-over or dialogue in a film. Visual has imposed itself on the aural. We witness a merger of two independent biographies (specific to aural and visual) into one in which the experience of one becomes impossible without another. The merger, however, is asymmetrical since visual still takes upper hand over the auditory. For the latter’s biography is written by the former, which interestingly is self-authored. The problem with this merger is the death of the creative listener, the disappearance of an aesthetically-free audience who inscribed his experience on the surface of the song or the piece of music which has an overarching life of its own. The imagination of the song or music ran wild and free conditioned by nothing but his or her personal experiences. Nothing was permanently written on the body of the music except its transcendental beauty, the capturing of which becomes the spiritual quest. But when visual take precedence over aural, ours’ wonderfully vagabond imagination is tamed to think unidirectionally. The audiences lose their freedom and it heralds the end of sovereign music. It is only those who are willing to sacrifice the aural at the altar of visual who can take lightly of the present-day music genre, dominated by ‘jingle like’ music of today. Now song as aural experience has to cut its limbs to suit the taste of scenes. This along with the repeated showing of the song sequences in TV makes it impractical to listen to a song without trapping ourselves into the visualization of the same by the director. Along with the songs the scenes also become part of public knowledge. Both become conterminous to each other.

This is very much in keeping with the need to appeal to the expanding market boundaries that are as wide as (sometimes wider than) national boundaries. Apart from the form that the new music genre takes, the style and content are also markedly different from its predecessor. A song which becomes an icon standing for the entire movie, when shown in a satellite TV network addresses itself not only to a particular audience residing in a particular cultural sphere, but also to a multitude of audiences residing in various diasporas, in different parts of the world. The need to appeal to all these audiences does not require mastery in the specific tradition but an invention of new language which makes sense to each audience whichever place they may live in the world. The important thing in diasporas, be it Tamils in Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Gulf countries or even in Delhi, have constructed the idioms and metaphor for Tamilness or Indianness in their own way which would be different from one diaspora to another and drastically different from parent tradition. Their tradition would be a mixture of local culture with parent culture, to which they have a second-hand knowledge and accessibility only. The “puritan’’ nature of musical tradition would make very little sense to them. For example Indian musical tradition in Caribbean Islands is a mixture of Rap and Hindustani; that of Sri Lankan Tamils is a mixture of Sinhalese musical tradition with Tamil film-musical tradition. The simultaneous appeal to all these diasporas demands a third language which is an admixture of all unique traditions specific to each diaspora. The need to invent a third language becomes acutely necessary as the same cultural product becomes accessible to different cultural zones simultaneously, unlike in the past in which a cultural item, say film, would enter different zones. Different dimension here refers to difference in language in those cases in which a film is dubbed in to another language in or difference in plot construction in cases of remaking the same movie. However when a cultural item is aimed to reach all audiences at one given time, it has to distance itself from each tradition in such a way it appeals to all of them. In the same manner when a song is projected in the TV networks, they only initiate a process, which also involves releasing the movie simultaneously in several theatres across the world and other associated processes. In the case of western movies (this trend is soon catching up with Indian popular films) the movie is also an advertisement for movie-related products which range from caps, T-shirts, shoes, toys etc. Therefore the songs in the case of Indian films play the role of an advertisement for the latter.

These processes have a negative -- or a ‘decisive’ -- impact on the linguistic aspect of the film songs. Particularly in the cases of many Tamil films, the songs begin with non-sensical syllables which enable the songs to be immediately dubbed in to other languages without changing visuals in which the lip-movement would sync with the non-sensical syllables which can be retained in other languages also, e.g. the hamma… hamma… song in the film ‘Bombay’ begins with the same syllables in other languages apart from Tamil. The structural impact that becomes visible in recent days in the film songs is the autonomous plot which a song has on its own. This is in commensuration with the need to sell the film-song as an independent product in its own right. The separate plot -- totally divergent from the main plot of the movie fulfils the twin purpose of selling it as a separate product and floating it as an advertisement for the movie. e.g., Mukkabla… muquabla… in the film “Ham sai He Mquabla.”

Under these circumstances music that derives its beauty and sustenance from one particular tradition is likely to have a limited appeal. They fall out of the favour of the champions of globalisation. Purity is a curse; identification with one’s own tradition is not a virtue in the present circumstances. The logic of ‘pastiche’ succeeds. An average Indian now lives his everyday life enjoying the benefits of the luxury of object produced in different cultural zone. An average, urban Tamil’s cultural milieu is filled with sounds and images which are from diverse origins from American to Africa, to West Indies to his own culture. A quick stroll in the streets of Madras would likely to fill our ears and eyes with sound images of western culture as intensely as with sound and images of north Indian and south Indian tradition. The environs around a resident of any metropolitan city are sure to have everything from every where rendering his/her experiences more and more cosmopolitan and synthetic. There, in these circumstances, searching for a pure tradition may not only run the danger of making oneself look buffoon-like, but making him a suspect in the eyes of others.

kuma
14th April 2005, 10:18 PM
It is getting very dirty and I am surprised that this kind of abominable posting are allowed. I am quitting this Forum for ever. I deeply reget to have joined this Forumhub in the first place.
Bye with bitterness

rajasaranam
15th April 2005, 12:10 AM
Kbee and kuma,

You are new to this forum. this Forum is in its most decent shape ever for the past few months after it got migrated from Tfm.com Had you been there, then you could have witnessed some worst street fights ever you had seen. Come on this is just a public forum and you cant expect decency from everyone. especially when someone like Arjuna peeps in always to say ill about IR in various avatars, he needs to be given back justly.

kuma,

i loved reading your post hope to respond soon please dont go away

rajasaranam
15th April 2005, 12:16 AM
Sure dude, 8) he is far far away from the music which IR composes. Sing your lost glory. :cry: But sorry the days will not be back for IR. He needs a wheel chair and u can get him one. :lol:

exactly he is far away from "music" which IR composes :) he can only arrange some sounds and copy from all over the globe :lol:

alias
15th April 2005, 02:03 AM
Wow that is good excuse.."arranging some sound and copy from the globe".. If it is that simple, why dont u start doing it? And Yes thats why IR is thrown out overnight by this person (who arrange some sound and copy from all over the globe). Check out IR records and u will see that he is no Saint. He has been copying from the word Go.

kiru
15th April 2005, 03:34 AM
Kuma,
You have made a very good post. It is posts like these which make a stop at tfmpage.com on the web worthwhile for somebody like me.
Please do not be bothered by some silly banter here. These people lose their interest in the topic once they are ignored enough. And like rajasaranam says, it has gotten better here. If things get worse we can start moderating the forums. So dont go away and there are quite a good number of people who appreciate contribution like that of yours.
Coming back to your post -
It is very appropriate of you to analyse the music scene in the light of socio-economic developments. Your point on movies being dubbed in multiple languages and overseas markets are very germane.
I'd like to add few more comments around your write up.
The new developments in the music scene should have happened earlier, but due to lack of communication it did not pick up in our country. The structure of the music itself is not new, with a 'World Music' genre pioneered by Peter Gabriel. With this genre, western rhythm patterns were overlaid with melodies from other cultures. Though rhythm instruments from other cultures were used, they were just overlaid just for 'flavor'. This has become so common place now that many recent indian film songs do not sound very different, say from, modern chinese songs. Though songs with pure drums/guitar arrangements were done earlier by IR, he did not do that much. This was in line with the social climate at that time (kuma's point on how even IR's songs were considered to be drowning the lyrics with music, shows how conservative the atmosphere was then). Many songs which started with drums, switched to tabla in the charanams. (Also, I would like to note, independent of Peter Gabriel, IR has been using drums with tabla/mridhangam as well for a long time.)

Keeping in mind the changing demographics (more youngsters) and improving economy, which created a fast paced lifestyle, the music also became very fast paced. The charanams of yesteryears which were considered the body of the song with various nuances and sometimes with three or four rhythm changes became now an extension of the pallavi. The pure melodic interludes (with no rhythm instruments) which IR pioneered, is not favored now as it would not hold the attention of today's listeners.

Talking about rhythm instruments/patterns - Kuma's last paragraph gives a clue why indian rhythm patterns would be considered 'old-fashioned'/'provincial' in todays social situation. Songs like rukkumani vandi varuthu, pothuvaaga en manasu thangam, kattavandi kattavandi which were so popular those days are less likely to find favor today (though the success of manmadha raasa manmadha raasa, a particular refrain of it, which traces back its roots to folk music, has been used in an IR song much earlier, beats my logic. It must be the triumph of the visual over the auditory, as kuma would like to call it).

In a nutshell, we have gotten newer rhythm patterns (but not that much) but are missing out a lot on the interludes, fine nuances of indian melodies, good fusion of western classical with indian and many such niceties. Indian film music which was set out to be a blend of indian classical and western classical, has now become a blend of indian popular music + popular western music. Real progress in actually evolving a fusion of two paradigms which takes years and the life time of many MDs has come to a grinding halt.

rajasaranam
15th April 2005, 09:22 AM
Wow that is good excuse.."arranging some sound and copy from the globe".. If it is that simple, why dont u start doing it? And Yes thats why IR is thrown out overnight by this person (who arrange some sound and copy from all over the globe). Check out IR records and u will see that he is no Saint. He has been copying from the word Go.



Yeah here comes the Arrogant Rich Yuppie, Uncle Sam's Representative. Sure it will be expensive for me to buy a CD but nevetheless i would manage to shell in some money to Listen to IR's music in CD.
And you are still making a plea to us 13 yrs after the advent ARR to make us understand IR was thrown overnight. Well we dont buy that crap :) IR is still here to Rule TFM for Eons to come.
Sure IR never said he hasnt copied and we too dont belive that. He had been lifting songs from all around especially most of the Folk songs he composed have a origin somewhere else. He never ever denied this fact- always been downtoearth saying Music is just a' sithu vaelai' 'Ella isaiyum ingu yaerkanavae padaikapattuvittadhu'. But Mr.ARR has never accepted/Denied he copies when some 50 songs can be listed as copies out of his 250 odd compositions.

Sudalai
15th April 2005, 08:19 PM
Sure dude, 8) he is far far away from the music which IR composes. Sing your lost glory. :cry: But sorry the days will not be back for IR. He needs a wheel chair and u can get him one. :lol:

Alias,
adhu Sari.. ARR enga irukkaaru..?? enna pannittu irukkaaru..?

alias
16th April 2005, 01:28 AM
Ok Mr. Ramanujam, I accept it and I am not like you who still dreaming about being IR on the top. We accept our mistakes gladly unlike IR fans.


Mod Msg: Last warning to those concerned. No slandering or personal attacks. Or, risk being banned.

arun
16th April 2005, 06:52 PM
Hi Alias, Its true that IR is past his prime. But that does not take away any of the greatness from him. Show me a person in the world who has been consistently creative throughout his life.

Like the physical body, the brain also deteriorates with age. But we are loathe to admit it because unlike physical deterioration mental deterioration is not visible to the naked eye.

My point is, do not evaluate IR by what he is doing currently. See his achievements in totality. Its so sad that we Indians did not properly showcase the talent of such a rare genius to the world.

alias
18th April 2005, 07:16 PM
Arun, I totally agree with you. I do not doubt the greatness of IR. Personally he is even now my second fav. but what fumes is, the allegation of IR fans that IR is there domanating TFM. Yes he use to be the king but lets accept his retirement and we have other genious in TFM right now who is on par with IR. Lets now deny that he is the one who revolunatinized not only TFM but the entire Indian Music Industry. He is the one who brought cheers to the Indian music in the world. Tell me IR in his career of nearly 3 decades, what were his achievement to the world music industry other than Tamil Music. None...

kbee
18th April 2005, 07:55 PM
Tell me IR in his career of nearly 3 decades, what were his achievement to the world music industry other than Tamil Music. None...
What do you mean by "World Music" - scoring music for a chineese movie or a broadway show? In the name of "World music" someone totally disappeared.

The reason why you see many of us devoting ourself to IR is because he catered to our needs, the tamil-telugu-malayalam people.

If he had gone to a "world tour" and didnt feed our ears, then we wont be talking about IR. I prefer that my mother cook for our family and not for others.

The reason why we have good music directors (like ARR, VS, YSR, HJ) is because we demand more, again because IR set our "ears" a standard for music and anything less wouldnt go in.

"Neenga Pizzava vaaza ilayila saapidara aalunga - appadithaan pesuveenga"

vatsa400
18th April 2005, 10:20 PM
Hi alias,

Not being world famous is not a fault of IR's talent. Sivaji did not get recognized even all over India and a Hrithik Roshan is recognized all over India does not make him a very good actor. Its just that HR is marketed properly and got the right oppurtunities for this kind of popularity.

Same thing with IR and ARR. ARR was in the right place in right time, doing hard work and he got the right oppurtunity ( it is not luck, but sheer willingness to seek more on this line). He is also a very good promoter of himself (which is a very good trait). IR either did not seek for it or not adviced properly on how to achieve it. A musician need not necessarily be a good promoter. I dont think IR is. I think IR has or had in him to become popular. IR did try to go global, but his/his advisors actions were not very thoughtful and fruitful because of non-music reasons. I think IR is better than many popular musicians of the world. I am not saying IR is the greatest and a GOD(as people herer potray him as). IR is a good musician, who with his talent, can be a popular person than he is.

We need to promote our people and encourage them to do more, if someone does well and look upon Western world to recognize someone of our own and name him great.

Vatsa

alias
18th April 2005, 11:44 PM
Tell me IR in his career of nearly 3 decades, what were his achievement to the world music industry other than Tamil Music. None...
What do you mean by "World Music" - scoring music for a chineese movie or a broadway show? In the name of "World music" someone totally disappeared.

The reason why you see many of us devoting ourself to IR is because he catered to our needs, the tamil-telugu-malayalam people.

If he had gone to a "world tour" and didnt feed our ears, then we wont be talking about IR. I prefer that my mother cook for our family and not for others.

The reason why we have good music directors (like ARR, VS, YSR, HJ) is because we demand more, again because IR set our "ears" a standard for music and anything less wouldnt go in.

"Neenga Pizzava vaaza ilayila saapidara aalunga - appadithaan pesuveenga"

kbee, that is a real false attitude, you have there. Music is not for catering one need or any type of people. It is universal and spreading Indian music is no harm. You want other pppl. to recognize our music. When you are talking about cook, dont compare with cook , compare with food. Just lke how our Tandoori chicken and Palak Paneer is famous in the western, our music one day will reach them thru ARR. So dude, music is universal and we should be happy that finally someone in west is listening as we have been listening westernized music for many years now.

vatsa400
19th April 2005, 12:19 AM
oops,

"We need to promote our people and encourage them to do more, if someone does well and look upon Western world to recognize someone of our own and name him great"


should be read as:

"We need to promote our people and encourage them to do more, if someone does well instead of looking upon Western world to recognize someone of our own and name him great"

kbee
19th April 2005, 01:09 AM
we should be happy that finally someone in west is listening as we have been listening westernized music for many years now.
Who? I do ship lot of How To Name It, Nothing But Wind, Close To My Heart (by Jagjit Singh), more Ravi Shankar and L subramaniam than anything else to "american' people. I couldnt even convince a chineese guy to buy "WOHE (but this is the BEST from rahman so far)", cuz they dont see their authentic product there and they would rather buy Indian music from Indian MD than a chineese music from Indian MD.

Yesterday I was playing MX in Tamil in my store and the lady who came to rent some movies told me "I need to work in this store, cuz the music is so relaxing"

It doesnt matter who listen to it, as long as they attain "moksham" and "mukthi".

In your own words, they want Tandoori chicken and Palak Paneer in Indian restaurant and certainly not a beef burger served with "coconut chutney"

Jacky
19th April 2005, 01:32 AM
Strange you can't sell a product (WOHE) that got 4.5 stars on Amazon!

"Yesterday I was playing MX in Tamil in my store and the lady who came to rent some movies told me "I need to work in this store, cuz the music is so relaxing"

Idhu konjam artificial ah than iruku.
NOM.

dude
19th April 2005, 03:42 AM
Hi alias,

ARR was in the right place in right time, doing hard work and he got the right oppurtunity ( it is not luck, but sheer willingness to seek more on this line). He is also a very good promoter of himself (which is a very good trait).
Vatsa

Vatsa,

Exactly what kind of self-promotions are you talking about?

dude
19th April 2005, 03:50 AM
Who? I do ship lot of How To Name It, Nothing But Wind, Close To My Heart (by Jagjit Singh), more Ravi Shankar and L subramaniam than anything else to "american' people. I couldnt even convince a chineese guy to buy "WOHE (but this is the BEST from rahman so far)", cuz they dont see their authentic product there and they would rather buy Indian music from Indian MD than a chineese music from Indian MD.

Yesterday I was playing MX in Tamil in my store and the lady who came to rent some movies told me "I need to work in this store, cuz the music is so relaxing"

It doesnt matter who listen to it, as long as they attain "moksham" and "mukthi".

In your own words, they want Tandoori chicken and Palak Paneer in Indian restaurant and certainly not a beef burger served with "coconut chutney"

Kbee,

How many non-indian movie soundtracks(especially chinese) have you sold? Or can you tell me how many chinese actually buy soundtracks for chinese movies?

And how many broadway or west end musicals' scores have you sold.

Dont you think that the reason people come to your shop is to buy indian sound tracks and not for chinese or broadway musicals scores. You do have a very good knack of putting numbers the way you want ;-)

kbee
19th April 2005, 04:25 AM
Who? I do ship lot of How To Name It, Nothing But Wind, Close To My Heart (by Jagjit Singh), more Ravi Shankar and L subramaniam than anything else to "american' people. I couldnt even convince a chineese guy to buy "WOHE (but this is the BEST from rahman so far)", cuz they dont see their authentic product there and they would rather buy Indian music from Indian MD than a chineese music from Indian MD.

Yesterday I was playing MX in Tamil in my store and the lady who came to rent some movies told me "I need to work in this store, cuz the music is so relaxing"

It doesnt matter who listen to it, as long as they attain "moksham" and "mukthi".

In your own words, they want Tandoori chicken and Palak Paneer in Indian restaurant and certainly not a beef burger served with "coconut chutney"

Kbee,

How many non-indian movie soundtracks(especially chinese) have you sold? Or can you tell me how many chinese actually buy soundtracks for chinese movies?

And how many broadway or west end musicals' scores have you sold.

Dont you think that the reason people come to your shop is to buy indian sound tracks and not for chinese or broadway musicals scores. You do have a very good knack of putting numbers the way you want ;-)

I am giving an info based on the clientile we have, thats it. If you think ARR is your god,. then i belong to different religion.

dude
19th April 2005, 05:34 AM
Kbee sir, forget god, religion etc.
You based your arguments on your clientele. I just asked some more information about your clientele. Idukku yen tension agareenga?

Music4Ever
19th April 2005, 06:19 AM
If "moksham" and "mukthi" were the ends, the customer is best served listening to pre-IR music. Please advise them correctly.

kbee
19th April 2005, 07:55 AM
If "moksham" and "mukthi" were the ends, the customer is best served listening to pre-IR music. Please advise them correctly.
As far as teh customer goes, they decide what they want. We cant control / teach them. This is my personal opinion and nothing else.

jaiganes
19th April 2005, 10:19 AM
Hi guys!
Why are we discussing IR's current position as best seller here? Isn't this supposed to be why people turned to IR thread? alias, you have confessed that u have been a great fan of IR once upon a time. Jacky , dude and others havent said so and so I am not going to ask them this question.
the question is ....
Alias, rewind to those days when you were not a fan of IR to start with and you became a fan of IR. What made you turn towards IR's music ??

alias
19th April 2005, 08:19 PM
we should be happy that finally someone in west is listening as we have been listening westernized music for many years now.
Who? I do ship lot of How To Name It, Nothing But Wind, Close To My Heart (by Jagjit Singh), more Ravi Shankar and L subramaniam than anything else to "american' people. I couldnt even convince a chineese guy to buy "WOHE (but this is the BEST from rahman so far)", cuz they dont see their authentic product there and they would rather buy Indian music from Indian MD than a chineese music from Indian MD.

Yesterday I was playing MX in Tamil in my store and the lady who came to rent some movies told me "I need to work in this store, cuz the music is so relaxing"

It doesnt matter who listen to it, as long as they attain "moksham" and "mukthi".

In your own words, they want Tandoori chicken and Palak Paneer in Indian restaurant and certainly not a beef burger served with "coconut chutney"

kbee, I think you forgot the concept of serving Indian food to american. When you serve them and if you serve them authentic Indian food, they would not be able to eat, they should be served with less spicy and to taste little americanized and thats when the resturant will sell. Else only Indian would land up there. ARR is just trying to serve. He is not selling Burger with Chatni. He is trying to serve Chicken Tikka with less spicy and with american sauce in it. Thats all. So talking about chinese person buying CD, sure kbee, she is not going to buy chinese cd from you when there is dozens or more china town in US where you get cds for cheap price than indian store. So to buy WOHE, she will go to china town rather than Oak tree. She will go to Bombay Dreams CD to the amazon rather than dvdumlimitedonline.com. Please thats the logic. Because Bombay Dreams, WOHEA are aimed more at westerners than Indians.

alias
19th April 2005, 08:22 PM
Hi guys!
Why are we discussing IR's current position as best seller here? Isn't this supposed to be why people turned to IR thread? alias, you have confessed that u have been a great fan of IR once upon a time. Jacky , dude and others havent said so and so I am not going to ask them this question.
the question is ....
Alias, rewind to those days when you were not a fan of IR to start with and you became a fan of IR. What made you turn towards IR's music ??
The reason I turned was because there is no other music director other than IR (who was domanating the TFM) and now with other ppl to look on, why do u want MX when there is Boys :-)

alias
19th April 2005, 08:28 PM
Hi alias,

Not being world famous is not a fault of IR's talent. Sivaji did not get recognized even all over India and a Hrithik Roshan is recognized all over India does not make him a very good actor. Its just that HR is marketed properly and got the right oppurtunities for this kind of popularity.

Same thing with IR and ARR. ARR was in the right place in right time, doing hard work and he got the right oppurtunity ( it is not luck, but sheer willingness to seek more on this line). He is also a very good promoter of himself (which is a very good trait). IR either did not seek for it or not adviced properly on how to achieve it. A musician need not necessarily be a good promoter. I dont think IR is. I think IR has or had in him to become popular. IR did try to go global, but his/his advisors actions were not very thoughtful and fruitful because of non-music reasons. I think IR is better than many popular musicians of the world. I am not saying IR is the greatest and a GOD(as people herer potray him as). IR is a good musician, who with his talent, can be a popular person than he is.

We need to promote our people and encourage them to do more, if someone does well and look upon Western world to recognize someone of our own and name him great.

Vatsa
Vatsa, i agree with you in couple of points, but man comparing Hrithik with Shivaji is no way comparing IR with ARR. You need to compare Shivaji with kamal hassan and say how Kamal or Shivaji is superior or inferior. I would say yes Kamal is way much superior than Sivaji because he was able to sneek into Bollywood and hopefuly he would probably do some hollywood projects (if he is given the right role) and thats where Sivaji faulted. He had talent but he did not suit to the Bollywood. And this is the comparison with IR-ARR. ARR was able to sneak into Bollywood, Hollywood and China-wood :-) and he fitted right in but IR with the tamil essense is fit only in Tamil and only we would keep him in our heads. Yes others would tell how good he is but he will not be a right fit. Tell me how many IRs hindi songs have been hit? I would say 1 or atmost 2 (when he has composed), but others like Anand Milind, Anu malik or LakshmiKanth Pyrarelal has composed the same money with little Hindi Flavour the songs have been hit and IR could not do the same. Because his talents were limited to TFM and not to bollywood. He could not do the same thing which ARR would do. Because ARR music is universal and IR music is totally Tamil rustic or South Indian Flavoured.

jaiganes
19th April 2005, 10:07 PM
good! now that alias has poured out his thoughts, rest, please continue with your thoughts. Need not reply to someone's opinions and spoil this thread into a X Vs Y thread. If we do that then this thread migh as well not exist.
Now let me explain why I looked to IR. I was about 8 when I started to listen and fall in love with IR's music, though the song that attracted and enchanted me was not a sweet melody or a peppy foot tapping number. It was "Aayiram nilave vaa" film, a very ordinary movie starring karthik. I knew the credits only much later. In AIR at that time, they were broadcasting the song "Dhevadhai Ilamaeni" every night. It was a spooky song with a lot of howling and scary music in the interludes. However the beautiful haunting melody and SPB's amazing rendering absolutely flattened me. I was thinking about this song for years. This was the song that made me turn to IR's music. Then I realised that most of my favourite songs like "Jaani", "nenjathai killaadhe", "chittukkuruvi" were done by this amazing music director who has redefined music for films of his time.

app_engine
19th April 2005, 10:50 PM
jaiganesh, adhu `dEvadhai iLam dEvi' sir:-) (I think they advertised this as 200th film of IR)...

vatsa400
19th April 2005, 11:32 PM
I got hooked into IR music because his music is simple to listen yet complex musically. His music has mood attached to it and he can change a mood of the listener with his music, which I think is an amazing ability. And his music is unique. These factors made me turn towards IR and changed some of my friends to IRs music.

alias,

I am not comparing Hrithik and Sivaji its just an example that huge popularity and talent are two different things (what ARR has got is both, which is rare). I think comparing a person for his talent is different from comparing a person for his popularity. A Pt. Ravishankar or a L. Subramaniam may not be a A.R. Rehman or vice versa. If finding faults is the way to find out a good musician, then ARR has not done good BGMs for 95% of his movies, he struggled to conduct his own music and so on. To me, IR and ARR are very good musicians who have alot of pluses and very few limitations and we would be better off, if we evaluate each of their creations individually rather than prejudice (mei porul kanbathu arivu).

P.S. Sivaji and Kamal cannot be compared as they come from two different eras with one era which like melodrama, which is not the trend when Kamal came into reckoning

alias
19th April 2005, 11:52 PM
"then ARR has not done good BGMs for 95% of his movies, he struggled to conduct his own music and so on."

Vatsa, the reason for ARR not composing BGM is not his limitation but rather the time factor. Since he takes lot of time in composing his music, it would be make sense for other MD to step in but those cases have been really rare and not in every movie. Look at his BGM in lagaan, Bhagat Singh (Filmfare for BGM), Ayudha Ezhuthu, Swades (Filmfare for BGM),Alai Payudhey, Mudalvan, Andhi mandharai etc

alias
19th April 2005, 11:54 PM
kbee, please do not get offended by my post of comparing amazon with our website. I wish from my bottom of my heart that your website becomes much more famous than Amazon and u become rich and distribute free Cds to TFM forum guys :-)

vatsa400
20th April 2005, 02:41 AM
alias,

As I said, minuses are subjective. Anyone can defend anyone with some theory. I can pick "many" movies for which the BGM was by ARR and was way out of mark. Again this is subjective. The thread is about IR, we should discuss about his IR and stick to the topic.

Vatsa

Arjuna
20th April 2005, 03:57 AM
Engal Idhaya Deivam Mannin Mainthan Thenpandi Singam Isai Brahma Puratchi Puyal Mozart of Madras Bharat Ratna Dr ARR valka!!